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#2597121 08/12/15 04:42 PM
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My husband has been late every night for the past month or so.
He always loved going out and drinking, but it has been really bad. When I talked to him, he said he is sorry and he will slow down, which hasn't happened.
Well yesterday, he was gone all night and did not come home until 12PM next day. When I confronted him, he told me he met someone a few weeks ago and he has been hanging out with her. He claimed they are not intimate (yet) but he does like her. The reason he was late every day was because he felt guilty and was avoiding me.
He said he is really sorry and he loves me, loves our kids (still toddlers), and loves our house. He doesn't want to leave or he doesn't want me to leave. Yet he is not sure if he will stop seeing her....He feels like he is living a double life and he can't stand it, he can't do things with me or be affectionate with me. He also did say that even not with this person, he feels like he will mess up again and hurt me in the future. He wants me to be happy and he feels like he can't make that happen.
As much as it hurts and shocking, I want our marriage/family on track. I don't just want to give up for the person he only knows for a month. But his unwillingness to end this affair or work with me makes me at a loss.
What should I do? Should I just continue being pleasant for the little time we see each other like Michelle's book suggests? (He came home at 5am today too) He might be infatuated right now it just started, but should I wait for him to come to his senses? Would that make situation worse now that he feels somewhat relieved for confessing to me? How long before I have to tell him he has to leave, not see kids, unless this stops?

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Hi Anna, welcome to the club that no-one wants to join. I'm so sorry for your plight, but I am pleased you have found the forum. It's a great place to be and there are many wise people here. Most of the activity goes on in newcomers and infidelity (I used to post here) is quieter. I have moved over to the MLC area now, but when I was here I posted on threads in newcomers, and this brings people over to your thread too.

You could also consider moving to Newcomers if you fancy a busier spot - although it can be so busy you disappear off the front page pretty quick. I saw some advice about settling into the forum today I think. I'll look it out and post that too.

As for your H - I'm sorry to read that. From what you post, your H is deep in the throes of an A - and if he was gone all night, if may well have become a PA. From a health perspective, I would think carefully about intimacy with your H right now. I'm about to go for a sexual health check up as I was intimate with my H for a while before he disclosed his PA. You may want to have a look at Cherry's thread. She posts in the Piecing our M back together part of the forum and I thought of her when I read your sitch. Her H had a PA and they were reconciled and working on the M last I know. I don't think she's posted for a little while.

I would settle yourself in for a bumpy ride here and have a good think about boundaries. The thing about people in an A is they don't want to have to make a choice. They want to have cake and they want to eat it. They don't want to let go of OW, but they don't want to leave the family either. So have a good think about your own bottom line. Are you willing to carry on living together if he stays out all night? Willing to share a bed? Willing to be intimate? etc. Boundaries are not to punish others, they are to protect you and your family.

Be aware that A's are incredibly addictive and this may take some time to play out. But also be aware that hardly any turn into successful R's and most implode in a relatively short period of time (6 months to 2 years.) Also be aware that if you allow cake eating, the A is likely to last for longer, so a strong stance may help.

My H and I S as soon as he admitted his PA and (from a sanity POV) I don't regret that. He has just filed for D though. I have no idea if he is still with OW, tho things were rocky there last I heard.

The last things are - GAL, PMA and detach from a horrible situation which may pull you under if you let it. Can you post a little more about your M and why you think your H may have become vulnerable to an A??

Take care x


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Hi Sotto,

Thank you so much for your reply. I am trying hard to detach from the situation. Demanding little toddlers are good distraction too.

Since the confession, he is totally avoiding me. He is never home when I am. He sleeps on the couch when he comes home in the morning.Since he works mainly in the evenings and I work during the day, he is the one watching the kids during the day.So he just comes home to watch the kids.
We have a family wedding coming up next weekend. We had booked two nights to spend some extra time over there for sightseeing and such. Now this happened, I have no idea what his attitude will be and what my attitude should be.I even wonder if he will say he is not going?

He told me OW is one of the customers, who gave him her number. But I just found out that is not true. She is his coworker. He foolishly left his facebook logged in on our laptop (and her page!) so I saw messages exchanged between him and her. I don't know why he lied that part, but now that I know she is a coworker, it angers me that she started going out with him knowingly that he is married with kids. (He said the "customer" did not know he is married) She is probably younger than him and more "free spirited" who could go out with him late at night.But I am tyring to tell myself she is not worthy of my time and energy.

We have been married for 12 years this year. Even though he pursued me in the beginning, I know I have been the clingy one lately. I know I depend on him too much. So I know I have my own issues for this to work out, to be happy with myself. He is mostly nice and good dad, but sometimes he was careless/thoughtless towards me with his action (late night, lack of communication etc)
However since the babies, he changed a lot and he grew up a lot, which I really appreciated. So I really didn't see this coming...

I know separation is not a good thing, but it's like we are already separated since we never see each other or talk.
I have alwarys been the pushover who tries to please him and cries to him, I never ever want him to leave honestly.
But I am starting to feel like I have no choice but to stand up and tell him to leave if he continues his A, not to be mean, but to be firm with him. I need his respect back, and to do that, I can not let this continue as he pleases. Letting go might make him notice that I am changing.
As much as I am scared if it shall backfire, that might be the only way if we make it?

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Hi Anna - you're welcome! You may also want to have a browse on newcomers. There are many infidelity scenarios there too - it's all too common unfortunately. In terms of the wedding, you may want to plan on going yourself, and if your H comes, he comes. If he doesn't, perhaps you could just say he has to work or something? One thing I have learned is it's best not to confide too widely what is going on. If you guys work things out, concerned friends/family can be a barrier I think.

Of course at the wedding, I imagine you'll be wearing your free-spirited outfit and persona with pretty little jewels in your own hair - and certainly not looking like a harried mum of toddlers. In terms of OW, yes he lied. Another thing I learned here is all cheaters lie.

I also learned that affair partners are inevitably 'trade downs' so you can rest assured that she has little of your character and integrity. She is an annoying gnat who is hardly worth your attention. My H also had an A with a work colleague. I met her once, so she knew full well my H was married. She had a previous A with a guy with kids, his M ended and then she cheated on him with my H. Go figure....

Now then, do have a read of Cherry's thread because I think it may help with the approach you need here. Also, start having a think about the woman you have become during your 12 years of M. Who was the woman your H fell in love with, and how has she changed? You mention some things - clingy, depending on him too much, having your own issues and feeling happy with yourself. Perhaps this is a chance to reclaim some of the former 'you' that got a little lost in marriage and motherhood - as we all do.

WRT him, do have a think about your boundaries - and protect your own health and interests. My H kept telling me he was confused and didn't know what to do (we had S at this point.) He told me he would understand if I couldn't wait whilst he made a decision. I told him I wouldn't wait. But what I wish I would have said is - H, I have no intention of putting my life on hold while you conduct an extra marital relationship. We both have some decisions to make here.

GAL is really important. Do you work? Get out with friends much? The more life you can have outside of the M just now the better. Even if it is GAL with the kids, and maybe other Mums with kids. Have a think about how you can build up your own independence too.

Above all, do keep posting, looking after yourself and keep your chin up! It's a rocky road, but you will find strength you didn't know you had, and will be a better person for it.

Take care, S x

Last edited by Sotto; 08/14/15 03:40 PM.

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The most true saying regarding wayward spouses is: "believe NONE of what they say, and HALF of what they do". They are not about to tell you the truth about anything and will say and do everything to avoid breaking up the M and A. They want it all and no pesky truth to spoil it. Make him pick, you or OW, and right now

Spend some time thinking about how to get you in a more independent place. Independence will give you confidence and courage. It is called GAL'ing around here (GET A LIFE).


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Thank you both.

I just read cherry's thread and it did give me some hope. So she stayed in the same house the whole time A was going on...
The difference is that they had some kind of communication time to time, but we don't. We only text each other about logistics for the last 4 days...

This morning he texted me he is coming home soon, I don't know why cause it's Saturday and he knows I'll be with kids and no need for him to be with kids. But then he didn't get home until 2 hours later. Wherever he was, I'm sure he was not 2 hour drive distance. I'm trying to detach...I took the kids to some shopping before he got home. When we got back he was home, but didn't say a word to me, didn't even look me in the eye. He's been like this since the confession. I'm dressed sexy and pretty, acting upbeat with kids which is still more forced than real, but I'm trying. H is always the type who hates confrontation, but I know we both can't keep doing this forever. When he was leaving for work, I told the kids to say bye to papa, D(3) refused. Even though the kids see H everyday, I'm sure they are sensing something's up. But I don't want to use kids as leverage, so I'm not saying anything.

I'm on the fence about telling him to leave. One moment I can't wait any longer to tell him, but the next I'm not so sure. But he has no consequences right now ( financially, kids, convenience etc) so I know I need to tell him...
Part of me trying to wait until next weekend for the wedding to see what happens, how he will be...as much as it will hurt, I will go with kids either way. But waiting means I am still having expectations and I need to change, I know. But it's still been 5 days and I have trouble sleeping and eating. I have huge lump in my chest all the time, it is so hard.

I do work and though But I don't get to go out much due to kids. But I'll try to be out with kids or do something nice to myself like beauty pampering.

I will try to read more on the other forums as well.
Thanks again for your support.

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One of the main reasons I'm torn about H leaving/separating is kids. As I mentioned, H takes care of them during the day at home. If I tell him to leave completely and get a babysitter or something, kids' lives will be completely changed overnight. That will be devastating for kids. I know kids love their dad very much and I think they are even closer than other dads due to the amount of time they spend together every day.
Should I allow him to come here a few days a week while I'm at work? But that means H still spends time at our home. The point is to make him realize what he will be missing, do you think it will be still effective?
I really don't want to hurt the kids.... I don't know what to do.

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Is the wedding a relation or friend of yours or his? If it's yours I would tell him only you and the kids are going, not him.


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My big piece of advice would be not to do anything for a 'make him realise' reason. Put your own needs and those of your kids at the heart of this. There may be a realisation at some point of what he's doing. Some WAS's have that relatively soon (but there can be a rocky road after that too). Some have it years down the line. You just don't know, so best to operate with the focus on you and the family.

If you want to S, care of the kids would be an important factor and something you guys would need to discuss. I would guess if he can offer them good care during the day, staying with him is going to be best for them. But that would be something for you both to sort out I guess. What ar OW's circumstances. Is she married or in a R?

I understand about the sleeping and eating. Those things can be tough at the start of your sitch. They will settle down, and the more you can do to look after yourself, and achieve some balance and calm, the sooner that is likely to be.

It also sounds as though there is an opportunity to build up your social life a little too. If you are able to make some GAL plans for yourself - with our without the kids - that would maybe be a good idea too.

Take care Anna xx


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The wedding is for a relative from his side actually. But we had 3 day weekend planned for this already, so I will go either way and try to enjoy...

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Sotto,

That is a very good point...I understand I should do whatever for the sake of myself and kids. To be very honest, I am anxious to see him even for 5 min, though he wouldn't talk or look at me. I know that sounds pathetic. I am using all my will power not to follow him around the house or talk to him though. So if I want S? No I don't. But I feel like some boundaries need to be set...
The thing is, I am so so scared and hurt right now, I am so impatient I guess. It's like I'm in a terrible nightmare I can't wake up from. I still can't comprehend this is real, I haven't even cried that much actually.
For the sake of kids, I think he could take care of them, but I need to set some boundaries like no txting or calling OW in our marital home etc. I just think kids deserve better than that. Also if he is going to stay out all night anyways, I feel like he shouldn't come home just to take a shower or sleep for an hour or two. But then again, like Cherry's case, some people stay in the same house all through A. I know it's up to me, but it is a difficult question.
OW is not married. I think she is like 23 or 24( H is 35) I don't think she is in another R either but I'm not sure.

Today I took the kids to the mall to pick up some stuff for the wedding and we had nice lunch though I could not eat much. It was almost always 4 of us when we go out, so this is new to me. I count this my baby step for a progress.
I am a foreigner here and I have no family here( only In-laws) so that makes help with kids from someone a little difficult too.

Thank you so much for the insight. It really helps me to talk to someone since I have not told anyone about this yet.
I will actually talk to DB coach tomorrow, so I will let you know how he thinks about the situation too.

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Ok so H came home unexpectedly while kids were up tonight. We talked face to face first time in 5 days, but just him asking for some phone nimbers( his phone got messed up and he lost some) I was not overly friendly but polite. H seemed very stressed out and somehow mad.
H asked D3 to come with him to walk the dog, but she cried and didn't want to.
After putting the kids to bed, he was sitting in front of tv with beer, I thought he might have come home to 'talk' and I got kind of nervous as to what he will say.
An old me would go straight to sit with him, but i thought I would wait for him to talk to me, so I was doing my nails in another room. I don't know if that ticked him off or he chickened out, but he just took a shower and left. All the while.no word from him.
I don't understand why he seems mad to me when he is the one who confessed A, but it didn't get me much tonight about the fact he left. ( bc I didn't expect him to come home anyway)
Was my reaction/attitude correct? Or should i have been more friendly and talked to him?

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You did fine and didn't pursue him. He knows how to find you to talk if he wants to.


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Thanks, mvgfwd2.
I'm still questioning myself at every move/or no move.

So H came home around 6am as usual. When I was leaving for work, I just said" I'm leaving" ( so please watch the kids) since he was sleeping. He got up and followed me to the entrance and was standing there looking at me, so I said "what?" ( not in a rude tone) H hugged me, and I didn't hug him back. H didn't say anything gave me a few nods and I left.
I don't know what it is about. He looked very stressed as usual. Maybe he made up his mind about leaving so it was out of guilt, I don't know.

Anyway I talked to DB coach. He said H must be having MLC, thinking his life is half over. But his connection with kids being a dad is a few good things in his life right now, so keep it that way. Instead of focusing on him to ponder if I should ask him to leave or not, he told me to focus on myself right now. GAL and reclaim the girl I once was when I came to this country by myself to study, which is pretty adventurous. I am a confident, smart and sassy woman at work. People at work wouldn't see me as dependant or clingy person. It is in the relationship I always have a hard time being that person...so I will try to take a hard look at myself how I can be that person in the relationship as well.
He also told me to smile more while he is around. To show him that I'm not what he expected of me. ( clingy, begging, sad)

He said this morning's his first physical contact must be a good sign. I don't know.
I'll keep posting.

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Good job! As backward as it sounds and feels, detaching draws people back. Just remember, clingy pushes away, detach brings back.

Also, I've read here that most A die out by 6 months. That's when all the warts and negatives in the OW/OM begin to appear that were previously ignored. A new A is fresh and all the negatives are brushed aside by the excitement. With the contact today the FOG of the A may be lifting, who knows. Just keep detaching and GALing, they are for you and for your longterm happiness.


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Thank you mvgfwd2!
I need all the positive thoughts I can get...I still have too much anxiety heavy on my heart.

It's impossible to know what really is happening in H's head. So I will try to have no expectations and have more patience.

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Hi Anna, I think it sounds as though you did well. Cool, not pursuing and not being unpleasant either. Not sure why he may be mad - but don't worry about that and follow the advice of your DB coach. They have seen a lot and are the real pros.

I like the idea of bringing 'sassy you' home again and smiling more. Refinding that part of you at home that you have somehow lost in the M. Don't feel bad about that. I think it happens to many of us, and in time you will come to see that this horrible thing that has happened, brings opportunities too - and in a way is a gift. Not a gift that was on your wish list of course. But a gift nonetheless. Because who you manage to be and become through all of this is the important thing here.

Take care Anna x

Last edited by Sotto; 08/17/15 08:49 PM.

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Awww I just saw H's Instagram. He had some night view picture of the park where we had our wedding but a different monument. No commentary.
Feel so crappy thinking H and OW must have had a date night and the nerve of him posting it in SNS like it's ok for me to know now.
I know I shouldn't look at his account, but I thought it's safe bc he usually updates about kids.... I just had to vent....

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Anna25

Welcome to DB, I did not post my normal welcome post here,
my oversight, sorry.

If you have not seen it yet and started reading all the links I will be glad to re-post it here.

There is a lot of good info in it.

Have you read DR yet?


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Thank you Sotto,
Yes, I try to think this ordeal must be something we needed, for a long-term happiness. It is just a minute by minute struggle, up and down...

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Hi Cadet,

Thanks for checking in.
Yes, I did read DR and I am reading up new comer's forums for very useful and encouraging insight.
I am really glad I found here.

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So this morning, he came home 15 min before I & D3 leave for work and preschool.Though he didn't say hi or didn't even look at me, I just carried on with upbeat mood getting kids ready.
When we were leaving, he said he will take S1 for his hair cut on Thursday, which I asked him to before DB. So I said "ok, great" friendly.

Then he grabbed me and tried to kiss me. Like a real kiss, not just a peck. I fought back. I said I have to go. He really tried and I fought back again, like we were wrestling each other for a minute. After all, he is a man and I can not push his forth back completely, so our lips met briefly but I did not kiss him back. I said " I'll see you later ok" and we left.

What was that all about???
He stays out all night every day (though I don't know if he stays at OW every day, looks like OW has a roommate) and he thinks he can come home and just kiss me like that? I would have given in before (when we had fights or something), but I am not going to.

This is tooooo confusing and exhausting....

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Then you should tell him "Considering everything that's going on right now, that was highly inappropriate and NOT welcomed by me" (or something similar).

Even if you do it later, I think that's better addressed than just ignored.


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Thank you Starsky, for your input.
You think it's ok to tell him tomorrow? I probably won't see him until tomorrow morning and I don't really want to text him that.


Oh and looks like he is going to the wedding. I saw his pants came back from the dry cleaner. I don't know if we are going together though.
Is it ok to go with him if he wants to? (We will have to share a room but I will not ML of course)
I think it will be great for kids for all of us to be together and do fun stuff ( we were planning to go to a big aquarium, have nice brunch etc other than the wedding itself)

D3 started asking questions where Papa is when she wakes up and he is not home in the morning. What should I say? Should I say anything to H about that? If so, how can I say it without being accusatory?

I know... too many questions.
I will appreciate any thoughts, thank you.

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Just wait until the next time he tries it, then say it.


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At this point how much physical contact do you want without a STD test on H?

Maybe work on your boundaries and find the right time to lay them out for H. And remember boundaries are nothing without action after they are crossed. Know what action you will take and do it. No telling H what you will do, just do it. Action is much more powerful than words.

Someone on here set the house alarm so it would go off when his W came home late. Kind of ended treated the house like a hotel.


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Hi Anna, interesting that your H tried to kiss you. And I'm glad you had the reaction you did. Shows some healthy self-respect. You're lucky to have Starsky posting advice. He is one of the vets around here and his words are wisdom indeed.

After BD, my H told me he still had feelings for me. Still wanted to hold my hand and be romantic with me. I told him I had no intention of having any sort of R with him while he was involved with someone else. His OW was at the centre of a horrible web of infidelity. I told him that I didn't want to be part of that web; that wasn't how I wanted my life to be. He seemed to respect that and backed off - however, he has just filed for D and that may not be the outcome you want!!

I think you're doing well for such early days. And it does sound as though your H may be getting a touch antsy. Settle yourself in for the long haul as there aren't normally any quick fixes here. Are you managing to make any GAL plans for yourself yet, and do you have a lovely wedding guest outfit? (I hope so!)

Take care xx


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Originally Posted By: mvgfwd2


Someone on here set the house alarm so it would go off when his W came home late. Kind of ended treated the house like a hotel.


That would be me. smirk


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Thank you Starsky,
I will def. do that next time if he tries.

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mvgfwd2,

I don't want any physical contact until he ends his A. As much as I just want to forget everything and be in his arms and cry, I know that's the last thing I should do.

I was thinking about "no contact in front of us/in our family house with OA" boundaries because I feel very disrespected when he does that around me or kids. But how can I enforce that without being controlling? Any suggestions?

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Originally Posted By: Anna25
mvgfwd2,

I was thinking about "no contact in front of us/in our family house with OA" boundaries because I feel very disrespected when he does that around me or kids. But how can I enforce that without being controlling? Any suggestions?


By not worrying one whit whether or not the cheater perceives it as being "controlling." This boundary is for YOU.

Think of it this way. I saved this post from another poster here named Jayne, who summed up boundaries just about the best and clearest way I've ever read:


Jayne, on “boundaries”:

Think about boundaries like this:

Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, because boundaries are about drawing "circles" around *you* and determining what you will and won't allow inside that circle.

Your WxH can do whatever he wants OUTSIDE that circle. You are not telling him what to do.

But you will only let into that circle people who treat you with respect.

He's free to go on treating you with disrespect, but you won't know about it because he'll be outside your circle. He's free to go on and draw his own boundaries of no expectations and no responsibilities, outside your circle.

He can do WHATEVER he wants. He's a free person, free to make WHATEVER choices he wants.

BUT SO ARE YOU, and you are free to choose who to allow within your circle.

That's all. Not about trying to control him at all. Tell him he's totally free. He has the WHOLE WORLD, outside your circle, to go and do whatever he wants.

If he's saying you have to let him into your circle no matter what, then THAT is about HIM controlling YOU.


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Hi Sotto,

This morning he seemed in a bad mood again. We talked something about kids' babysitter, but his tone was not friendly at all. I know I should not let his mood affect me, but it is very difficult **sigh**

Yes, I am ready for this weekend! I have pretty outfits picked up for myself and kids for the wedding and I even ordered more new clothes for the rest of the trip smile I am going to mani and facial tomorrow too.

Also people invited me to dinner on Friday, which I would have declined before since H will be working and I have to have babysitter watch the kids at night (that I am not too comfortable with) But this time I am going and I am looking forward to it.

Thanks for your encouragement always.

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Hi Anna,

I'm sorry to see you here - but it sounds like you are a strong person with a lot of self-control, and that will serve you well through this trial!

My situation was that I knew about an EA, then suspected a PA, but only got proof of the PA after H said he ended it. However, there were a lot of lies and uncertainty around it, so not sure of the timelines exactly. (BTW, did you take a screen shot of their chat and e-mail it to yourself? Document evidence of the A whenever you can!)

A couple of factors that I think were important for H's decision to end the A and work on our relationship, was that I didn't give up on our M. I told him early on that I thought it was worth saving and I wanted to get past the A. He also realized there were some very real practical consequences to splitting up after I saw a L (he had seen one without my knowledge but had not presented the facts, so the advice he got was worthless).

It sounds to me like your H is very confused and upset with himself for the mess he has made. I believe that his advances to you - the hug and the kiss - is to test if you are willing to take him back. Perhaps not to see if he can have his cake and eat it, too, but to check if he has burned all bridges.

He may also be thinking about that you will be spending some days away together (at a wedding, no less!) and he's trying to create some kind of connection so the trip will not be awkward (in his mind).

Here's what I would do: I would share brief hugs, I would respond to a kiss *if it felt natural and I wanted to* - but I would not ML until the A is ended and after a clean bill of health from H. The thinking is that I would want to show him that I had feelings for him and wanted to save the M, and to build a connection and distract him from the OW, but also that I had self-respect and cannot ML with my H while he is seeing another woman.

I think this approach is supported by Michele's concept that what you do is what you create. Meaning, if you act lovingly and close and spend time together, loving feelings will grow. If you stay distant and avoid each other, distance will grow and the love will die.

You have the gift of time - he is there, he sees you, he sees his family, and he notices his children's reaction. Personally, I would tell him clearly that I would be willing to try to save the M, that many, many couples get past an A, but that he needs to end it, and there will be no real M until he ends the A.

Then I would do all the things you have mentioned - bring your old self back, become more independent (which will serve you well regardless), find child care solutions (you may have to), etc.

It sounds to me as if one of the issues you may have is that your work schedules don't allow you to spend much time together? He is off during the day and watches the children while you are at work, but he also works? At nights? When did you spend time together, and did you at all without children if you don't have a sitter?

These are things I would work on developing, so that if you reconcile, you can spend time together. You should get a sitter and he should get a day job. He needs to get away from the OW anyway.

Best wishes!!!


M 16 yrs, WH62, P54
3 adult blended kids
EA 11/13, BD1 6/14
PA fall 14, BD2 2/15
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Starsky,

Thank you so much for this post.
This is very empowering and yes, it is very clear now.

Honestly, this whole thing is a new world for me. I have always been the accomodator in the relationship. I always put my kids and H first even if it means inconvenient or uncomfortable for me.
"How do I feel whole and happy without a partner?" is a big question to myself.....

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A really good book on boundaries is called -- simply -- "Boundaries," by Cloud and Townsend. It's considered the definitive primer on the subject, and it may help you. I personally SUKKED at boundaries, and have had to really work at it -- still do.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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So Starksy

Just have to ask. I don't know if you follow my situation or not.

I have given my W boundries maybe she saw them as ulitmatiums. Basically, no marriage with me as long as you have AP. You will have to leave the house if you are engaged with AP which she did.

So, boundries ignored, she files for D.

So, in this situation, what other boundry can I exert? My answer I suspect is nothing, just accept what it is and move on.

Correct?


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Hi Painter,

Thank you for checking in and very interesting view...

At BD, I told H that I am not willing to just give up on M and family we have. H's response was, that honestly he does not feel like it right now (bc he mentioned that even if not with this OW, he might mess up in the future with someone else) So I think H knows where I stand, even though we haven't had any R talk since (one week now)

You are right, H is very confused and upset. He looks miserable. He said with the guilt he feels, he can't continue life this way (double life) thus the confession. Even though I don't believe everything H says right now, I felt that part is genuine. So I am on the fence if he is trying to take advantage of both worlds, but unconsciously so maybe.

Because right now, the best to describe H is avoidance. He does not want to think about it. He seems to be drinking everyday too.
I don't think he has really thought about the reality of splitting up. Even though he said he wants me and kids to stay at home bc we deserve it, we can't afford it financially if we really split.
Is he going to get another job? then we need care for the kids during the day, how will he come up with the money to cover that expense on top of separate living expenses?
H also said he will never do anything to hurt the kids, but how tearing apart this family would not hurt the kids?

So while he is avoiding everything, is it a good idea for me to bring up R talk?

Yes we have a difficult schedule. The time we have together just for us is after he gets off work, maybe 10 or 11pm half of the week, other half we usually spends all evenings together. He does what he loves to do, so as long as he makes most of the time we have together, I have learnt to live with it. H does ask his mom to babysit for us so that we can go out, maybe once a month or so.

During this weekend if he comes along, I am planning to be pleasant and friendly. I hope I can pull it off, being loving but not pursuing.



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Starsky,

I got that book on my list, thank you!

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Originally Posted By: HeavyD
So Starksy

Just have to ask. I don't know if you follow my situation or not.

I have given my W boundries maybe she saw them as ulitmatiums.


While I support Boundaries (and the book Starsky suggested, really is a good one)

the risk is always that it comes off as an ultimatum to the WAS. The risk is also, that it's how you intended it to be seen, meaning, YOU must watch yourself when you call something a "Boundary", when it really might just be an attempt to control your spouse.

Similarly, the line between "teaching them a lesson/punishing them" and truly just having self respect, can be a blurry shifting line. We always have to watch ourselves for that.

Personally, I had trouble with confusing my version of "Justice" with just me rationalizing being angry and trying to make my h pay for being "selfish and wrong".

For a minute, forget what's right and wrong. Instead, ask yourself what your GOAL is and whether the behavior or comment you want to do or make, will be effective in achieving that goal.


DB 101----Div Busting really is about doing what works, and Doing None or Less of what doesn't work.




Basically, no marriage with me as long as you have AP. You will have to leave the house if you are engaged with AP which she did.

So, boundries ignored, she files for D.


Clearly it's not an effective strategy to simply assert a boundary AND then show zero change on your end, IF that is what can be said.

Plus, most WAS's will NOT return to a marriage they left - unless they believe the marriage can be different/better than before.


It's the job of the LBS to demonstrate that it can be better/different than before, which is shown by the changes seen in you.


Needless to say, not easy. But it's also not complicated.

In her mind, Why should she stop the A, if the only "cost" to it, is the loss of a marriage she already wants out of?

What is it that you would withdraw that she's not already giving up to see the OM?

I don't mean this to offend, but to demonstrate that boundaries (AND OR ultimatums) are just words - unless there's a new different re/action or behavior that comes with a violation.

And if you come across as harsh or judgmental, it's easily interpreted as meaning she has burned too many bridges so there's no turning back for her. You cannot behave as if forgiveness is impossible YET you must also GAL

Ultimatums are frowned upon in DBing mostly b/c they usually fail

AND OR b/c they come off as controlling.

So if you were to say to your wife, "Do not have an affair or else..." And then she did have an affair, what then? Or else what?

Are you going to leave her, or file for divorce or fight custody or what? (I'm not suggesting those, just asking as examples). I oppose ultimatums in general b/c they tend to put the person who issued it, in a corner.

Don't issue an ultimatum for something you are not totally comfortable enforcing.

So, in this situation, what other boundry can I exert? My answer I suspect is nothing, just accept what it is and move on.

Correct?



^^ hence the difficulty of this situation and the risk of ultimatums.

I'd say this:

you want a "game plan", correct? That means you need a GOAL, and a plan to achieve that goal. But the goal cannot simply be to reconcile with your wife.

Sounds sad and harsh, I know. But this^^ is ALL about you wanting something you cannot necessarily ever have. For now, I think you must forget her. Assume she's in the Australian back country and cannot be reached.

The goal FOR NOW must be exclusively about your own growth as a man. Becoming the best man you can become. DEFINE that in specific terms you understand. COUNTER her negatives of you, with the new positives. So if you were once perpetually late, you become MR PUNCTUAL and arrive on time or early for everything.

Sure, there are tougher traits and flaws you have and must work on, but my point is the same. She has negative images of you, (which may be valid!) But valid or not, they can be changed. The change has to come from you and that's why your plans must be - for lack of a better term, "Self centered". Dig deep.

This may mean taking better care of your body to look better, or to get some anger management or it may mean being a better listener, all of which can still be done without pursuit!

Get some "mantras" or inspiring quotes for yourself, and SAY them out loud to yourself several times a day.

Turn your marriage over to God, (or the universe or Life force, etc) to free yourself to just work on YOU.

Behave in healthy confident ways and eventually, you will FEEL healthier and more confident. In TIME, your life will improve.

The improved life you create for yourself must and will be enough for you.

What your wife does or believed about the new wonderful you, is far beyond your control.
Any efforts on your end to affect that, are for nothing. They are wasted energy.

That energy (the energy spent on worrying about her OR in trying to convince her of anything about you) is a waste of energy.

Spend ALL of your energy on becoming the best man you can become.
The reality of who you become, will suffice. It MUST suffice. Her opinions will be out of your control and thus must be released.

If she believes you are a purple lesbian from Mars, you may not be able to change that belief - but you cannot let it change the reality that - you are a man with great qualities.

In time, Her beliefs will NOT be based on reality, her "data" about you will be false.

That fact that you become a better man and great husband (for someone) has to be enough for you. Because it is real.

If you keep in touch with her family or other mutual friends, word will get back to her. NO need to spend any energy on wondering what she might hear/think or feel.

THAT^^ is all you ought to "do", b/c it happens to align with your goal of becoming the best man you can become. NOT to win her back but b/c you want to self actualize.


The effort to change HER behavior, and to understand her and to make her understand (anything) that you love her, is ALL for nothing at this time.

Worse, it's actually counter productive.

It means your energy is "outward bound" instead of being about YOUR own growth and YOUR Changes.

You'll keep checking in with her to "See if she knows that I feel X" and you'll keep on checking her temperature to see if "she knows Y and Z" and you'll strategize about what to wear or how to word a sentence and your energy will continue to hone in only on HER reactions to your behavior.

That is no way to live, and it sure won't re-attract her to you. If it worked, it would have by now.

Go inward for the changes you need to make, and outward to GAL.


Get her off your radar screen...for now and the foreseeable future.

Turn the marriage over to God, & simply completely take charge of your own life.

When you become the best man you truly can be, and you know it,

then you can turn ALL of this over to God, let the cards fall where they will,

and be at peace.

From this day forward, Hold your head high and live your life well.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
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Anna25

though I just posted to Heavy, I think for the most part that specific post can apply to your situation.

Hang in there, we are all rooting for you.

((( )))

Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 08/19/15 08:12 PM.

M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
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OW
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Originally Posted By: HeavyD
So Starksy

Just have to ask. I don't know if you follow my situation or not.

I have given my W boundries maybe she saw them as ulitmatiums. Basically, no marriage with me as long as you have AP. You will have to leave the house if you are engaged with AP which she did.

So, boundries ignored, she files for D.

So, in this situation, what other boundry can I exert? My answer I suspect is nothing, just accept what it is and move on.

Correct?


Well I don't know enough about your sitch to answer fully, but in the example you gave, the boundary enforcement would be considered to be "successful," even though she initiated the action, since presumably you wouldn't have continued to live in an open marriage ANYWAY.

To me, that's the beauty of boundaries, or -- as I like to call them -- "My Boundaries of Personal Integrity." Only YOU know what they are, but they should be a very short list; your "dealbreakers," as it were . . . those things that you, as a person with your values, morals and ethics, simply CANNOT ABIDE.

And this is how it works, in practical application: If you decide that "I will not live in an open marriage," and you state that as a boundary to a cheating spouse, and if that drives them away from you, and toward the other person? Well, then that's THEIR CHOICE, and them cheating -- and staying with me -- wasn't an option for me anyway, based on my own authenticity and values, so what have I lost?

All I've lost in that instance is something that I could not have abided anyway.

"You must choose between her or me" is an ULTIMATUM. It's about THEM.

Boundaries should be about YOU -- "I will not live in an open marriage." It's then up to the other person to decide what to DO with that information you've now shared with them, lovingly and firmly.


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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^^^^

People...read and re-read THIS wise gem from Starsky on what boundaries really mean in the context of DBing.

Clap, clap

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So wife left me for the AP. She asked if she could have an open marriage in order to be with the AP. I said no, I am not comfortable with this, we have never discussed this before, so no, I am not comfortable.

She continued it to a PA. I then told her that one of us would have to leave our marital house, she chose to leave.

So, in my mind, that is her choice, she knew my boundry and did her thing knowing it would be the end of our marriage.

Awful situation but most of the advice on the board has been to wait it out until the A cools off. D papers have been filed, lawyer called and will have some stipulations for me to review next week.

I don't want this divorce, but see no other way out as this is her wish.

Your suggestion? Let her go? or Fight the D and stand for the marriage.


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Well I'm certainly not a fan of "wait it out," that's for sure. "Little Bo-Peep" rarely (ever?) works. Affairs are HIGHLY addictive, and what addiction that you know of goes away on its own? It usually ESCALATES, and/or transfers to another source (from alcohol to drugs, from one type of gambling to another, from OM1 to OM2 etc.).

I've been on these forums since April of 2004, thru three different usernames and over 25,000 posts. Studied HUNDREDS of affairs, and personally counseled many people one-on-one. And I've really only seen two basic approaches work:


"Puppy's Short Version, All-Inclusive Advice" for Waylayed Spouses Who Just Got Bombed"



1. Get proof (of whether or not there's OM/OW). Hint: There almost always is.


2. Do either:


2a. Aggressive affair-busting (see Allen A's posts over in Infidelity)

Allen A's Posts

; or


2b. "Set Them Free" (Robx/Gucci approach)

"Setting Them Free"


Those are the only two things I've seen work. If #1 turns up nothing, then proceed to #2b. And in the meantime, GAL your ass off, and become the better option. Best case, you'll attract them back, and at a minimum you'll become a better person that will be more attractive to SOMEBODY in your next relationship.

Starsky

Last edited by Starsky309; 08/19/15 09:41 PM.

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Starsky,

I feel compelled to provide some background for Heavy's situation here as you may be missing some information.

Heavy's wife asked if she could live in an open M with the OW. Heavy said, "no, and if you continue do to this, then you need to move out." So Heavy's wife moved out of the marital home into her own place and is still involved with the OW who lives several miles away.

You need to understand that Heavy's W wanted to work things out "amicably" among themselves without L's involved. Well, when W presented a very one-sided agreement to the mediation, Heavy was advised to pull out of the mediation (by yours truly) and get her own L. At that point, Heavy's W countered by filing for a D.

In this scenario, the only option at this point is for Heavy to drag out the D for as long as possible. We also suspect that Heavy's W is probably in MLC which is a whole different ball of wax than just a WAW.

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Thanks Wonka

Now soccer season is starting up. I enrolled both kids as I thought it would be healthy and also give us some bonding time. Do you feel it's ok to ask W to join along- of course I want it to just be a family activity, but I can't very well say don't bring anyone. Right?

First practice is Saturday and the next Saturday as well.

Suggested text

W - S10 and D6 and I are going to attend the first scrimmage for soccer on Saturday. We'll be there at 10 at the XX park if you want to join us.

Take care - Heavy


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Heavy,

Let's not hijack this thread. I will answer ^^ in your post. wink

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sorry about that :-(


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Originally Posted By: Starsky309



2a. Aggressive affair-busting (see Allen A's posts over in Infidelity)

Allen A's Posts


Starsky


Hey, Starsky

Do you have a link that's a little less comprehensive? It's all of Allen A's posts... 463 pages of links... shocked


M 16 yrs, WH62, P54
3 adult blended kids
EA 11/13, BD1 6/14
PA fall 14, BD2 2/15
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Anna25, have you read the books yet?


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Hi MrBond,

Yes I read Divorce Remedy!

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Originally Posted By: Wonka
Starsky,

I feel compelled to provide some background for Heavy's situation here as you may be missing some information.

Heavy's wife asked if she could live in an open M with the OW. Heavy said, "no, and if you continue do to this, then you need to move out." So Heavy's wife moved out of the marital home into her own place and is still involved with the OW who lives several miles away.

You need to understand that Heavy's W wanted to work things out "amicably" among themselves without L's involved. Well, when W presented a very one-sided agreement to the mediation, Heavy was advised to pull out of the mediation (by yours truly) and get her own L. At that point, Heavy's W countered by filing for a D.

In this scenario, the only option at this point is for Heavy to drag out the D for as long as possible. We also suspect that Heavy's W is probably in MLC which is a whole different ball of wax than just a WAW.



Thanks, Wonka. As I stated above, I didn't know enough about Heavy's sitch to comment specifically. As a general rule, I don't mind dragging out a potential divorce action if it benefits the betrayed/left-behind spouse to do so in some financial or legal way, but I'm still not a fan of the whole "standing" thing for any prolonged period of time, MLC or otherwise.

Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Originally Posted By: Painter


Hey, Starsky

Do you have a link that's a little less comprehensive? It's all of Allen A's posts... 463 pages of links... shocked


I'm sorry I do not, Painter. The good news is, he pretty much gave the same advice over and over, LOL.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
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What were some of the issues you had in the M? Is he willing to go to C?


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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Hi MrBond,

The issues I could think of right now, is that we didn't have enough time together/ we were so caught up with our little kids.
Also I suspect H might be having issues with depression & alcohol, which might be making it even more difficult for him to have clear thinking.

H said he does not feel like working on our M right now, though he said he is confused and doesn't know what to do. (Thus he made no movement, not ending A, not moving out etc)

He is still in contact with OW, so there is no C mentioned yet...

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And have you been doing any changes on yourself? Physically, emotionally, intellectually, spiritually, etc. Maybe he needs a "reminder" as to why he married you in the first place.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Mrbond,

Physically I have lost some pounds which I always wanted to, but couldn't. Of course not a very ideal way of losing weight, nonetheless I feel great about how my clothes fit right now. I also changed my hair, these things help me a lot on my self-confidence part. H said he still finds me very attractive and it seems he is tyring hard to keep his hands off me.

Emotionally I am still struggling a lot. I have a lot of anxiety. I am trying to find what makes me happy regardless of who I'm with or not. Honestly I have been this way all my life.

For GALing, I have some limitations with little kids, and I am naturally an introvert person. But I am trying to get out of my comfort zone by going to dinner with people, or doing things by myself, and looking at some cooking or Spanish classes (which I have tried before but was pushed back to the bottom of the to-do list since kids)

It will be a slow progress, but I keep telling myself this will be for my own good no matter what...

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Originally Posted By: Anna25


It will be a slow progress, but I keep telling myself this will be for my own good no matter what...



It's imperative. I've never seen anyone successfully affair-bust or Divorce-bust without a really good GAL plan. It builds your own self-confidence, and it re-attracts your spouse, and it has the side benefit that if your spouse DOESN'T come to their senses, you're then all that much more emotionally and physically healthy for the next guy!


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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So H said he is going away this weekend with us.
I'm happy he is going, but also nervous. How should I behave?
I don't want to look like pursuing, but I want all of us to have a great t ime too. I am hoping this breaks his bad cycle of thining and he can relax a little bit with family and friends.

I know I shouldn't initiate the conversation, but H is not a very talkative person to start with, I don't want to look like I'm ignoring him either.


awwwww this is so difficult....

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Hi Anna, I agree with Starsky about prioritising the classes. Put some GAL at the top of your list and extend yourself. Also, what about a little social GAL with the kids too, where you get to meet up with other parents while the kids do something?

In terms of the anxiety and happiness, that sounds like an important area for you to have a look at. And this horrible situation may well be a catalyst for you to move forward in this area. Just a thought, but have you had a look at the TED talks at all? I saw one the other day by Shawn Achor (I think!) on happiness. He has written a book on it, but recommends a 21 day plan where you do 5 things each day - exercise - list 3 things a day you are grateful for - journal a nice thing that happens every day - meditate (tried the Headspace app?) - do a random act of kindness. These things - he says - will bring you greater happiness. Brene Brown is also worth a look on TED too, as is Amy Cuddy.

In terms of how to behave with your H this weekend. Maybe have a think about the usual dynamic and change things a little. If you normally always open up convos in the car, maybe just put some music on and sit quiet and content. Please remember that you have nothing to fear here. You are not the one currently pursuing an OP outside of your M.

At the wedding, if you normally stick close to your H - try and extend yourself and reach out to others. Leave him to it a little more and enjoy seeing relatives you may not have seen for a while. But do everything WRT him in a pleasant and NEIGHBOURLY way.

Look lovely, smell nice, enjoy feeling attractive....feel your inner power building....

Hope it all goes well for you xx

Last edited by Sotto; 08/21/15 07:56 PM.

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Great post, Sotto!


whistle whistle whistle whistle


Starsky


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Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Originally Posted By: Anna25


It will be a slow progress, but I keep telling myself this will be for my own good no matter what...



It's imperative. I've never seen anyone successfully affair-bust or Divorce-bust without a really good GAL plan.
It builds your own self-confidence, and it re-attracts your spouse, and it has the side benefit that if your spouse DOESN'T come to their senses, you're then all that much more emotionally and physically healthy for the next guy!


Starsky


I cannot stress this^^ (GAL) enough. There is one reason we hammer it so much

IT WORKS.

You will be happier, which you deserve to be -- and it makes you more attractive than you may realize, yet "getting him back" cannot be the "focus" of GAL.

(Your happiness and growth are the focus).

There is no situation here, that GAL does not help, regardless of ultimate outcome


but GAL does increase the chances of a good outcome!



For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter.

(FYI I had 3 kids, including a baby then. I'm sorry but I don't want to hear about how you are 'too busy' to GAL....if you really take in what we are saying you will realize you cannot be too busy to LIVE WELL...which is the essence of GAL.

Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Fear & complacency play a role in that too. ALL those factors probably helped get you here, so when you overcome these factors, you are essentially countering the negative images he has of you


with positives and "New data". You want to counter those negatives that he uses to justify his confusion or desire for OW,


with the new improved you.

= His data about you is either inaccurate and or Out of date.

Overcome the inertia/fears, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your h...

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).

I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).

I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast often, too.

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.

I learned to cross country ski, & I became a better shooter.

I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding it.

Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.

Went skydiving. Loved it so much I did it again. And plan on doing it again, soon!

I Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent physical shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. Found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs. Some gyms have cheap/free daycare on site.

(Since I'd just had our last child, I needed to lose the baby weight. It was NOT easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly cold of their LONG winters).

I Saw a therapist and for some months, I went on ADs.

Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I really liked it a lot).

Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty and ignoring them.

(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women there, who are life long friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking

There is more, and I'm sure wherever you live, it can't be as remote as the middle of Alaska was...

Remember that while there are

No guarantees your WAS will suddenly awaken and return, fully committed,

there is one guarantee in this ordeal of ours. IF WE WORK ON OURSELVES< WE BECOME BETTER, HAPPIER, MORE LOVING PEOPLE...

and sometimes that has to be enough.

The paradox of all this is that we start doing all this "self improvment/growth" stuff because we fear losing our marriage.

But we eventually do it b/c we realize we were losing ourselves and so no matter what, we get ourselves back.

Sometimes that means the WAS sees the person he/she fell in love with originally and things work out well...and sometimes that doesn't happen.

But regardless of what they do or how they react, WE are better for it.

So your task now is to Ask yourself what you can:

JOIN or

STUDY or

VISIT or

EXPLORE or

VOLUNTEER FOR or

AUDITION FOR or

TEACH or

COACH or CREATE --

this month...
And keep us posted!

GOOD LUCK!

******

Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 08/23/15 05:29 AM.

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Wow I'm so impressed and so inspired. I will use your advice too. Thank you


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OK,so update from this weekend...

H came home an hour late from he said he would on Saturday. I was going to leave without him, but D3 cried she wanted us all to go together, so I waited.
The drive up there was awkward, and I noticed him texting OW every chance he got, so I told him when he texts in front of/around me or kids, I feel its very disrespectful to us. I texted him that when he went to the restroom because kids were around. After that, he didn't make it so obvious.

As the time went on, H seemed a little relaxed. He suggested to dress up for dinner and we all went together. After kids went to sleep, we were having some drinks and he was making advances. I told him I can not be his wife until he ends it. He hasn't tried since then. He apologized saying he doesn't know why he did it.

At the wedding, H was still a little distant, but I tried to have a good time with kids and other family members. I danced and kids ran around, overall it was fun.
Every time H introduced me as his wife to his family and friends I met for the first time, my heart sank though. Nobody knows but us what's going on. No one had a clue this happy little family is breaking.

Towards the end of the night, he got antsy and he wanted to leave. After he sat with me with drinks for a while, he said he is going to "take a walk" and left. to talk to OW. I felt just so devastated.

The following morning, H didn't even want to come to breakfast with me and kids. He just wanted to go home. Even though he was not mean or anything, he was very distant.
As soon as we got home, he said he will take off and left. I just felt like doing nothing, I didn't know how I could carry on like this.
Just an hour later, H texted me. He apologized he ran away. He didn't realize how rude of him to ruin our "family day" until now. H also said he has no PA with OW (they kissed though) He has stayed at her place but only on her couch. He mostly spends the night in his car. I kind of believe this because they text each other all through the night and I don't think they would do that if they were lying next to each other...

I feel more depressed than before the trip. He was texting OW all through the trip (not just in front of us) I know he still cares about me and kids, but so much as about OW I guess.

My GAL update next...

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Thank you so much everyone, for emphasizing the importance of GAL.

I read 25yearsmlc's post in the middle of the night during this trip while H was gone, it really hite me home.
I realized I was trying to "pretend" to GAL, but did not really get over my fear and discomfort.

So here is what I did for the last two days.

*I joined working mom's meetup. I will go to a picnic this weekend with kids for the first meetup.

*I started working out at home. I tried gym's daycare before, but saw really horrible stuff (not certified people just sitting around while kids cried etc) at my local gym, so I quit going.
Anyway, I worked out last night for the first time in a log time and it felt great! It really is a stress reliever. Yeaterday sucked big time since H left, but even for the 30min, I felt better. I ordered some more exercise DVD.

*I signed up for Spanish class for fall semester at local community college.

*I haven't been able to find a cooking class that fits my schedule and budget, so I'm planning to teach myself new dish every weekend from the collection of cooking books I have but not really opened since the kids. I used to love cooking but it became a chore now somehow.

Am I scared and uncomfortable? Yes. I'd rather curl up in my bed and do nothing. But I force myself to do stuff and who knows, maybe I can change.
The lump in my chest and anxiety is there no matter what I do, sometimes it feels so difficult to just exit these days. I sometimes want to sleep and never wake up if there were no kids. But I still have to live for kids, then I should use the time wisely.

Thank you so much again for the encoragement...

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Good job Anna!

I have been getting a little bit of a life too but nothing so far that has stuck. I already volunteer and will continue to but after reading the same post and then yours I realized I am probably pretending a little too.. im going to look into some local classes and see what I can do for myself.

Thank you for the nudge!


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Anna, good job with the GAL. I think the key is you need to extend yourself and get out of your comfort zone somewhat. Sounds like you are making some good plans - and good for you!

WRT your H and all the - oh it's not a PA, but I stay out most nights and sleep in my car - erm no. That sounds like WH BS to me. I would work on the basis that this is likely to be a PA - either it is one already or it will become one.

My H told me that OW stayed over, but he stayed on the couch and he just kissed her on the cheek. And that it became a PA only later. But with the passage of time, I realise that was almost certainly a lie....

Keep on going, and looking after you. You're doing well my friend xx


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Thank you Sotto.

Sometimes I find it extremely difficult to go on.
Just to come here and write/read helps.

I know I have to be patient...

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It is a searingly difficult experience I know. In the early days, I found anything that took my mind off things even for a little while really helped - getting out for a walk, meditating, seeing a friend, doing some cleaning or sorting, counselling, journaling, volunteering. All these things are worth their weight in gold if they can settle you a little and give you some respite.

Things truly do improve - even within a couple of months you start to grow more used to the situation as the initial shock subsides. You are already taking control with your GAL and I think you are showing calmness and maturity in an incredibly tough situation. All of this will serve you really well. One thing I realised recently is that who you are and who you become as a result of this horrible experience is what truly matters. More than restoring your relationship - though we wouldn't be there if we hadn't hoped to do that...

Keep on moving forward - you can do this xx

Last edited by Sotto; 08/26/15 08:09 PM.

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Hi Anna, in case this is of interest, I just read an interesting article on infidelity on the Hearts Blessing website. It focuses on midlife affairs - but if you replace any reference to 'midlife spouse' with 'wayward spouse' it is relevant to any affair I think. The article was - extend a choice only the cheater can make.

It's a good read for anyone whose cheating spouse would like to have them just where they left them - whilst keeping the relationship with the affair partner going. I think the ethos very much supports DB advice too.

Hope this helps xx


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We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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Hi Sotto,

Thank you for the article.
It is very inspiring and gives me some strength and hope.
I understand that there is NOTHING I can do to make H do anything. Why do I beat up myself for something I can not control...

In a reality of my situation, I am still not sure exactly how I can remove myself from H since he comes home every day to take a shower, change and take care of the kids. I don't interact with him unless he does, I don't ask about R,,, how can I put it in practice "you can not have me(or family) while you have A"?

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good recommendation on the Hearts Blessings website and article sotto thank you!


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Are you still doing his laundry, cooking, or other such things? Maybe quit being his maid. Maybe ban him from your bedroom, lock it possibly. It's the marital bed not a hotel bed.

Last edited by mvgfwd2; 08/27/15 01:33 AM.

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Hi Anna, I'm glad you found that one helpful. I think all her arcticles on infidelity are worth a read actually. I've been reading more widely about MLC lately and her stuff is pretty interesting I think.

As for your question - how do I remove myself - yes I agree it isn't easy. For me, I moved out straight away so I don't have that experience to offer. But I guess not removing yourself to me means - sharing a bed - being affectionate - being intimate - acting as though you are in a loving marriage - still being a partner to him - still going on dates etc.

So I guess removing yourself may mean - not sharing a bed - not showing affection - being clear that intimacy is off the table - being clear that you and he are not in a R whilst he's involved with a third party....and so on.

Maybe speak to your coach about this area if you have another session planned? I think it is really important to avoid the whole triangulation thing - for your own peace of mind and protection, and also not to prolong the A - whatever form it's in. Many WAS's push the boundaries in this area and I think you have done well to push back on this one. It's hard because we so want our WAS's to want us (and not AP) - but do we want THEM on that basis? ie: secretly texting AP while playing with the kids?? - erm no thanks....he's no prize at the moment, believe me!

Best wishes to you xx


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mvgfwd2 & Sotto,

Thank you for the input.
I am not doing his laundry. I'm not cooking either (Well he is never home when I am ) We are not sharing a bed because he sleeps on the couch when I'm there. I only see him maybe 5 min in the morning usually.

I had another session with DB coach this morning.
We talked about "lovingly detaching" He suggested I should continue to be happy and upbeat around H because H said he doesn't feel like he can make me happy.

When/If H makes sexual advances, coach thinks it's ok for me to let him know I want it but I can't because I have self-respect, instead of making it to seem like I'm turning him down because I'm punishing him/he's a loser.

I asked coach about how to talk to him about boundaries on money, time-management (bc H was late coming home in the morning a few times for me to go to work) etc, and he suggested to make it collaborative instead of sounding like punishment or demand. Like " We need to figure this out, what do you think we should do?"
Coach thinks H is still very confused and a good person within him appears and disappears, and that punishment (or if H thinks it is) is never productive in such case...

I know all this sounds like I'm giving him much more respect than he deserves right now, but I'll give it a try and see how it goes.


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Journaling...

Last night H had a day off and surprisingly was at home when I returned from work. I cooked for myself and kids, and I thought it would be rude to ignore, so I asked H if he wants to eat. H said yes, so we all ate together though there was not much conversation between us.
H said thank you after dinner and did the dishes, helped me put kids to bed.

I talked to H about the time he comes in the morning. H said he forgot to set the alarm that morning and apologized, said didn't mean to make me late for work. I said we need to figure something out if it's difficult but H said it won't happen again. (This morning H texted me when he's coming home to let me know)

After that H left. But he said "I'll be back later, See you" which was new because he had been saying nothing when he left lately.
Anyway, I did my cardio workout and it was hard but felt good.

Then again when H came home this morning, he said nothing.....
I continued being upbeat, looking good and smelling good!

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Anna! You rock! Keep it up! smile


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Thank you Lost!

I read up on your thread too and I think we are in the similar boat. (and timing too!)
I really feel your agony. The pain and fear is indescribable. I can't concentrate on anything. I really wish I won't wake up anymore.
I know we are still early in this, but I feel very inpatient. I wanted someone to fix this yesterday.

But somewhere in my mind, I know I will get H back. And that hope is all I'm clinging to. I know acting on the moment's emotions is not going to help accomplish that, so I'm trying my best to look ok while dying inside.

I'm still working on detaching. I still get so influenced by H's reactions/no reactions. I still get obsessed about A and OW.
However, last night was one of the better nights, and I wonder if being nice(like offering dinner) to H works?
Like in your thread, you were wondering if spending more time together to build the connection is better?

I know every situation is different bc we are dealing with different people, but this is so difficult isn't it...

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Hi Anna, just checking in to see how you're doing my friend? Hope your weekend is going well....any nice GAL plans? xx


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Hi Anna,

Just read your story and I'm sixth months finding about my H affair's and 5 months since I kicked him out. From my experience if you can keep co-habiting with him, do it. I know it is going to be hard for your sanity but if he is around it'd be a lot easier for you.

Like you I am impatient and wanted to fix everything. Unfortunately I kept pushing him away. I don't know if he is with OW, but when he comes round to see the kids he looks like a wreck. Could it be guilt or not? but I have learnt to detach from the situation now.

There is nothing we can do at the moment. If he really wanted to leave you, he'd have done it as this happened to one of my friend. Men don't leave their wives unless they are sure about the OW.

Good on you to look good and feel upbeat. I know it's hard, and you feel it is fake but believe me it'll soon become a second nature. Think about when you learnt to rid a bike, it didn't work straight away and at first you didn't feel comfortable, but little by little you managed to rid it a bit more. This is the same.

The first steps are the hardest, but once you are on this bike you appreciate the road and its surrounding. Gosh I hope it makes sense to you :-).

Never doubt your strength, it might not seem obvious but it is there.

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Hi, Anna smile

I didn't have such a great weekend. It appears I'm still wallowing in my grief frown

But I came here to support you and check in b/c I agree we're in a similar boat and I am very encouraged and inspired by your progress.

I hope you had a good weekend and are continuing forward with your PMA / GAL!

Having an imaginary coffee with you right now smile


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H returned home from out of country 8/8/15
BD 8/11/15
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Hi Sotto,

Thank you for checking!

My weekend was not so great...
On Friday night, H came home after work very unexpectedly. He didn't say anything and just went to walk the dog right away. Since it was late, I went to bed myself. When I woke up later, H was falling asleep in front of TV, so I went in and turned off TV. After a while, he left. I really don't know what was that about.

Saturday, I went to a farm picnic with kids for mom's meetup. Kids had fun pulling out carrots and seeing chickens etc. Talked to some moms and kids, it was overall good until I felt very sad driving home, thinking other moms' H waiting for them at home.
That evening H came home, was in a very bad mood. Snapped at me about our dog, that I need to discipline him right (The dog has been barking excessively lately, we talked about this before and H said the dog is on a guard mode since H is not home at night.) I wanted to say well that's because you are not home, but I didn't say anything.
Later, I needed to talk to him about budget and he was still mad and said "How much do you want?" I wanted to explain it's not like I'm trying to take his money, but merely asking for his share of money to maintain the house and kids life, but I just simply said how much our expense is and how much I need from him.

Sunday morning H didn't bother to come home. I noticed his toothbrush was gone. Very depressed. I felt like the situation is just slipping away for the worse.

So Sunday night H came home early. But mostly sleeping on the couch. I asked him about dinner, but he didn't want it. (BTW, I cooked nice meals on weekend using fresh veggies we picked at the farm, which was nice)
H stayed until both kids were asleep. When he was leaving, H asked me if I saw the babysitter. ( I had an interview Sunday morning, but he well knew I saw her because he had arranged the interview and apparently babysitter had already contacted him asking for schedule) So I said "Yes, I liked her" and left the room first (with all my will power) before H left.

This morning H came home and when I was about to leave, he said "what happened to your foot?" (about my blister from my shoes) I think this was the first time in a long time H asked about me, not kids or logistics. Then he said "there is a hole in the back of your dress, let me see" and turned me around and said "oh it's just some thread" and took it away.
I take it's a good thing. I have to.

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Hi Rouky,

Thank you for reading on my thread and I'm really sorry you are in this situation...

I think S is not a good thing as a basic rule, and my DB coach also told me I don't have to tell him to leave right now, but it is hard. Sometimes I doubt myself if I'm not taking a firm enough stand. But then again, I still have opportunities to interact with him even a little, which I have to think is a good thing.

Being upbeat around him is all fake and forced. It's comforting to know if you say it'll be easier and more natural. When H is not around, it's even hard to get up. I feel like I just want to sleep. Any GALing does not give me any real joy right now, but I 'm just forcing myself, hoping it will sometime...

I started reading "solo partner" recommended here. I always knew I was a pursuer, but the description for both pursuer and distancer is so US. It is so me and H. I need to stop pursuing, and now it's fake, but I'm hoping to master it. I know it's going to be very difficult considering I have always been this way, not just with H, but I have no choice right now...

Thanks again for encouragement!

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Good morning Lost,

Thank you for checking in!
I'm sorry to hear you didn't have a great weekend. Unfortunately mine was not good either...

One moment I feel ok and optimistic, then the next moment I feel so crushed and scared. It sure is a roller coaster ride, isn't it. I don't feel like I'm making a progress, but I guess I have no choice but to go on.

Let's hope we can find some good things this week however little it is...


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Hi Anna,

I knew it is hard, and you want to pain the go away but bear in mind that you have only been on this forum a month. You are at the beginning of your journey.

As I said before, whatever you do will not be natural to you but it will. Just to make you laugh, today I had to go back home as I realised that I didn't have any mascara. Out of the 10 years I have been with my H, I only wore it on our wedding day!

I know it's hard and you want the pain to go away. In the end you have embarked on a journey ( not that you wanted it) where you will grow as a human being!

My H went (I suspect still is) for an angry phase, I reckon it's/ was due to him not knowing what to do and in a way expecting me to do it for him. Unfortunately due to our situation, I decided ( one of my boundaries) that he is a grown up man, so therefore he has to start to make his own decision, and not wait for someone to do it for him! I was like that, and it scared me to make decisions but now I'm happier for doing it. My next big one is D or not? But not in a rush for it

Thinking of you :-)

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Hi Anna, sorry it's been a tough weekend. But look here - you went out and met some new people. You had interactions with your H where you didn't break down or pressure. You picked veg and cooked meals etc. All of that sounds like good stuff to me!

On the GAL, I understand what you're saying. It can feel like you are just forcing yourself to do stuff you don't enjoy. But there is an element of needing to try things. Of the various GAL things I have done, there were a few that I tried and didn't carry on with - Tai Chi was one. You know, I just didn't feel like having to remember a routine...

But there have been other GAL things, that have worked out so well and made a big difference in my life. Volunteering at the bookstore is one and my Social group - of the Llama, falconry, rifle shooting fame - is another. The important thing is extending yourself and building a life for you that is separate to your H.

I truly do sympathise that having him come and go in and out of the house must be so hard. I wasn't able to do that and decided to leave. Others manage it and I admire them. The important thing is that you have an arrangement that is sustainable for now, and that you can look after yourself - despite the challenging circumstances.

You sound as though you don't feel things are going well. But from what you post, I think they are going as well as can be expected just now. Please remember how unusual it is to see much progress at this point. Things tend to happen slowly in these sitches. You have removed pressure, you are focusing more on your life, let time do it's work whilst you work on you.....you're doing just fine Anna xx


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
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D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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Rouky,

I believe my H is very confused and frustrated as well. At BD he told me he has been always angry due to this. It's very typical of him too that he does not want to deal with problems wishing they will go away on their own somehow.
I have been always a "fixer" and my urge to help him sort things out is great, but I know only H can decide what he wants to do. So I am trying to give him time and space...A lot of self-control!

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Sotto,

You don't know how much it means to me to see your always encouraging words! I do really appreciate it. I appreciate everyone taking time and writing to me, it helps me keep my sanity greatly...

Patience patience patience is my mantra.
Having no control and dealing with uncertainty is such a new area for me, but it will bring me new sense of calmness for sure if I master it.




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Journaling...

H was off last night. I made yummy pasta (if I say so myself!) H wanted to eat too. I don't know if he just feels bad to turn down if I offer, but I think it would be too rude not to if he is there?
H left when D3 was not asleep yet (was lying down with me trying to sleep), and she asked me where Papa is going. So I texted him later if he could wait until kids are asleep. He texted me back "yes, sorry"

Later in the middle of the night, H started sending rambling text, "sorry" "Why didn't you shut the door (so D3 wouldn't know he left)" "You know I was leaving" "I never want to hurt my kids" "You should know that" "Why" "I'm good to them always" " Why don't you close the door"
I didn't bother replying.

This morning when D3 and I were leaving, I noticed H was standing very close to me. Then he grabbed me and took me to the other room, who knew what his intention was, to talk to me or to make advances again? But D3 started crying, so that was it.

I have a work related BBQ invitation next week. They have invited my H too, but I shouldn't even let him know right?

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Why invite him? He's just someone who babysits when you're at work. Would you invite your babysitter? Go have an awesome time. This is a good detaching/gal'ing opportunity.


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I agree with the above comment, and I would also stop cooking for him. Let the OW do it, he fired you as his wife, so would you cook for your boss who fired you?

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mvgfwd2, Rouky,

You are right, I wouldn't invite my babysitter. I will go by myself and enjoy yummy BBQ with coworkers.

As for cooking, you don't think it will be too rude not to offer if H is there? I cook for my kids and myself, not especially for him.
I'm a little confused about "neighboury" attitude. I should be polite and not ignore him but not too overly friendly is what I understand...

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Here's my take on cooking: If you cook a nice dinner for yourself and kids and he's there, I would think it's a good thing if he chooses to eat with you. He sounds like he is torn on how to proceed and what he wants, and you're letting him figure it out for himself, BUT showing him what you and family life has to offer. Him eating with you and your kids is a normal family activity that is bound to keep at the front of his mind what he will be missing out on. He goes to OW with a reminder of you still fresh in his mind and belly.

The way to a man's heart goes through the stomach, they say - that's very true for my H, he puts a lot (much more than I could ever imagine) of meaning into whether I cook dinner for him or not.


M 16 yrs, WH62, P54
3 adult blended kids
EA 11/13, BD1 6/14
PA fall 14, BD2 2/15
Piecing 2015, BD3 12/15
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Hi Painter,

Thank you for your input!
The thing about cooking is that this is something I would like to take up again. I used to have more passion about it but it became more of a chore ever since I got pregnant.
So while H might think I'm doing it for him, it's more about me actually.
I think I will keep doing it and offer H if he is around at dinner time.

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Journaling...

Yesterday our babysitter told me that H and kids were late coming home (for H to go to work) so that she had to wait outside for 30min. I asked H about it and he told me "yes I went to eat" It's hard to think H would be late just because he took kids to lunch since he had more than enough time to get back on time if it's just lunch with kids. Now I'm paranoid that H took kids to have lunch with OW, but I haven't asked him about it.

Now he texted me saying I can go out tonight if I like and he will watch the kids. H doesn't want me in the house?
I have an appo with IC tonight anyway, so I decided to go to dinner too, I just replied "ok I will do that thanks" but agh.....

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Friday morning journaling...

I had my first IC yesterday. It was mainly explaining the situation, and she was at first not sure about me not speaking up to him about A. I explained I want to focus on myself instead of him or A, since there is nothing I can do. I want to work on myself being more independent and told her some of my GAL plans. She thought I have a very good plan, though it would not be easy considering the way I have been used to for a long time, but it is possible.
Just talking to someone helped. I will see how it goes.

Anyway, I went out to dinner by myself after that. Wow that was the first time ever I dined alone in a real restaurant, not like café or fast food. It was alright. Not as bad as I thought. I enjoyed the food.In fact I felt a little better after that (not sure if it's because of a glass of wine ;-))

I'm going to dinner on Saturday night with a friend and I am looking forward to it too.

So this morning's conversation
H: So are you going with a guy tomorrow?
M: No, you know I don't do that.
H: I know, I just wanted to know.
M: It's not a guy. Why do you care?
H: You can, you know, I just want you to be honest (he wants ME to be honest????)
M: Well, I'm being honest, you know I don't do that.
H: I just wanted to know, I just wanted to know.

I don't know if this is good or bad. He might think he can be off the hook and feel less guilty if I date? (what kind of woman am I to start dating only after three weeks of BD??) Or he is a little intrigued that I start going out?
I'm going with a gay friend of mine H also knows, so yeah, technically a guy but not, but I don't think I need to tell him everything right?
Doing 180 is sure scary...

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I have been in the same situation and replied, "I'm a married woman. I don't go on dates with other men than my husband."

But I don't feel very competent at giving any input right now...


M 16 yrs, WH62, P54
3 adult blended kids
EA 11/13, BD1 6/14
PA fall 14, BD2 2/15
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H is trying to relieve some of his guilt. You need to dress real nice and throw on some new perfume. Buy some new sexy underwear that you normally don't do and leave it somewhere he will see it (tags still on). He needs to think he is losing you, his plan B, before he acts. So far he is in no fear of anything, cake-eating, and you in limbo. Get him out of that mode. This is also for you, making yourself feel desirable by anyone.

Last edited by mvgfwd2; 09/04/15 05:55 PM.

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H texted me saying "I was not trying to be judgmental, you have every right to go out with whomever you like, guy or girl. I just want you to be honest with me. If it's a guy, it's ok"

I don't know why he is bringing this up again.
It hurts if he is really trying to make me date...

How about this reply???
"I appreciate it, but I am being honest with you."

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Anna, I would suggest that no reply to that might be best.

And if he raises is again - tell him you are going out with a friend and leave it at that...


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First, it's good he is thinking of what YOU are doing. Whatever GAL'ing and detaching you are doing is working. Be mysterious, it will keep him wondering about YOU and get his mind off OW. The new,confident, independent YOU is desirable. Like I said, get new perfume and sexy underwear or clothes. Maybe change the bedroom to what YOU want it to be to get him off balance. These are actions that he can see that you don't need to tell him about but convey a message.


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Sotto & mvgfwd2,

Thank you for your quick insight, I really appreciate it!

I didn't reply to his message.
It was not a question anyway, and I answered him once, so I think it's ok to leave it.

I bought a cute littel skirt yesterday and got new perfume I ordered today, so I will wear those tomorrow.

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Hi Anna, well done with the self control and not texting him. Yes, I agree with mvgfwd. From what I read, your H is thinking - Is she dating?? Well, maybe I'll feel better if she is too. But, who is this guy?? I don't like it!! etc.....

All of this is helpful I think. Confusion and interest from your H is no bad thing. From your part, I would never lie about what you are doing - just say something about going out with a friend. And if he pushes, you can say - yes, it's a male friend. All absolutely true.

If he says - is it a date. Don't reassure him that no you're not dating. But you could say - we're just going out for a friendly drink. And I certainly wouldn't mention that your friend is gay.

For my part, I've had some contact with mutual friends of H recently. I've been telling them about my new social group and how busy I've been. Made some new friends I've met outside of the social group too. I just haven't mentioned that the social group is female grin - I think it's best to be a little hazy about some things....

Enjoy your dinner out xx


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H just came home in the middle of the night and woke me up. He was drunk. He was making another advance.
I told him 'I can't because I have self respect, we both will feel very bad afterwards.' H was like 'I don't care' I asked him if he doesn't even have that much respect left for me. H said he has so much respect for me. Then why are you doing this? H said ' I still have this much craving for you' ( he made some gesture with his hand on his head but I really didn't understand if it meant a lot or little). Eventually H said 'ok no more' and he left again.

I know I did a right thing not let him, but did I burn the bridge by the way I handled it? I really don't know. Then again he was drunk too.... Now I can't sleep this is great...

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Anna, I think you handled that fine. You weren't mean - just reinforcing your boundary. When you think about it, how appropriate was it for your H to expect to be able to ML to his W in the middle of the night when he was drunk, given his behaviour lately? Reinforcing the boundary was primarily for you. Do you feel like ML to him on that basis?

I think he was trying to 'reclaim' you as 'his' with that move. But I would hold firm on this and he will see that he doesn't get to 'keep' you and OW. If he carries on with OW, he will feel you slipping away like sand through his fingers. You will be going out with 'friends' who may or may not be male and moving forward with your life.

Now, relax as much as you can and try & get some more sleep my friend smile


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