My lizard and her tunnel ...

[late30s]

Late ... NC with kids is just impossible, no getting around that. What I did was just went NC when it came to anything but S .... W figured this out over time and would use this as a hidden door to communicate .... ie pic of S, to which I would reply every now n then "cute pic ...TY" and she would fire back something nice n sweet just to make sure I was still on the hook. Took some time to wiggle off that hook for me.
S8 and W too had issues ... Like you .. I opt'd for the "The R between you and S is just that .. .between you and S" this worked for some time till W was convinced I was plotting S against her, which led to a truth dart that it was not me who kissed OM in front of S then labeling OM just a "friend" ... kids do understand a lie when they hear one. This was towards the end of the A.

I'm being very diligent in not allowing myself to be drawn into that mess. Something I picked up from reading over your sitch, Cali. I gained so many insights there, I don't think I can ever thank you enough.

This is one area where it easy for me to hold my ground. When she starts spewing that it's my fault, I firmly tell her it isn't. That the kids are capable of thinking for themselves and that it is between them. When she continues with the assault, I don't dignify it with a response and start looking to leave the conversation. I've taken a page from your playbook and refuse to discuss anything significant over the phone or via text.


This is the tough part ... they want you where they left you, they will expect to cake eat ... keep you as option #2 as long as they can. Almost like training wheels ... afraid to ride without them or the LBS having a hold of that bike fearing they will crash. Amazing what seems to happen when the LBS is able to drop the rope from a place of strength.

Getting closer to that place of strength. Each and every time I don my spew jacket, I withdraw a little more, I move a little further from the situation. The constant pain in my chest is becoming a dull ache and I am not thinking about what she's doing at all.

I think its just nearly impossible to expect a LBS who is still dazed and confused from BD to detach after 20 years with someone. I had no idea who I was without my W, which was part of the problem .... I slowly and surely stopped being me, and to be honest it was not like I could go back 20 years and dig out the old me and say .. here I am .. now Love me. This is why I think the reinvention portion of this is so vital .... seems more so for the LBH as our confidence/self esteem seems so tightly bound to how we are perceived as attractive... which is rough as that's exactly what takes the biggest hit with the BD, A and OM in the situation.

I never considered it that way. I know my self esteem was obliterated. It's slowly coming back. I can look in the mirror now and be relatively content with what I see. I'm 6'4" 190lbs (Lost 40 lbs from the awesome MLC diet) I weigh as much as I did when I was 19, but I'm the strongest I have ever been in my lifetime. I need it too, S16 is a big boy and we wrestle pretty often.

Here's the part I'm struggling with. With pretty much everyone else in my life, I'm pretty easy going and I crack a lot of jokes. With W, all of the walls are up, well over my head and I can't seem to relax and just start cracking jokes. I don't like that one bit. Rather enjoyed making her laugh in the past, but find myself unable to get to that place now.


No Clubs ... as AJ said .. you already self inflict plenty ... but even then in this case I do not see anything club-worthy.

The meds, depression, and drinking are tough. My W has had bouts with the depression ... like you I was/am scared about her facing what she has done and really flipping out about it. Seems currently we are in a "Don't ask/Don't Tell" policy ... but I see her crack here n there.
Thing is ... what I learned the hard way. You can not fix her depression, you can not talk her through it, during the crisis I had to force myself from trying to 'help'. I would protect S and do what I could there ... but W needed to figure it all out without me. Was like tough love parents at times have to do with their own kids ... in a "We Love you but can no longer watch you do this to yourself" approach. W during a dark moment begged me not to leave, knowing OM was in the picture Also knowing he was not there to take care of her .... and reading here to let the OM fill ALL her needs .. I told her I could no longer be that guy ... she cried and said "But you are my Rock" ... I reached into the water feature we had bought years ago .. placed a rock in her hand and told her "Here is your new rock, I can no longer be a part of this life you are leading" and out the door I went ..... cringing the entire time mind you as I realized I just handed my hot-blooded W a very hard projectile.

I actually accepted a long time ago that I couldn't cure her of her depression. I have tried to offer support when she needed it and give her time to listen to music / draw / write when she needed that. The rough part is the therapy / meds. I feel like I can't bring them up, but also know that she needs professional help to deal with it. Similar situation to her drinking. If I try to "force" her to get help, it doesn't work. If I sit around and do nothing about it, I feel like I am enabling her. Felt like my hands were tied. It is interesting to watch her sometimes. She has been so fervent in convincing people that OM is great for her that she keeps insisting to me that she doesn't drink any more.

Just the other day, she told me she hadn't had a drink in 3 weeks, yet I was able to think of 4 different times that week alone that she had been drunk. I'd love to see her get sober, don't care what her motivation is, as long as it works for her. I just don't get the current attitude. It's almost like she's asking me to challenge her. (Which I don't, I stay well clear of that.

I am not saying ditch her late ... but she fired you, for the time being let OM fill ALL her needs... sounds like this is not going to happen, which is good.... she needs some alone time to sort out the mess, figure out what she wants ... all while you are creating a better version of yourself.

Excellent advice as always. Thanks again, Cali.

[AJM]

Like she's challenging you? Yes. Except it's you and not you she's challenging, right? You are more representative.

That's why it's important to calmly and plainly not bite at the spew apple when its dangled. You're doing great with that by your description.

It is interesting to watch her sometimes.

Yes it is, but be careful. I know from experience that can be an addiction.

It's an addiction with a lot of pain for you.

The analogy of it being like a child and tough love is spot on. But be careful not to become the "parent". You're not that person, and you don't need to be cast as that person. It's not the right fit and will mire you down in a bad dynamic.

You know what you want for her. You know what you want from her. You know what you want in general. But let's just say you get part of what you want. What would that be? What are you willing to accept in lieu of getting all of it. Not that getting all of it is out of reach. It's anyone's guess at this point. But what are your priorities in that list?

It's likely going to be a long time while you wait. What are you doing for you? What are you doing to GAL and reinvent yourself? To build the rest of that family unit you want?

What does Late30's 2.0 start to look like in your future vision? Just you. I suspect there are a few things you'd like to change about yourself, right? What are they?

One more thought for the night Be careful of other women. You're a bit vulnerable, down 40 pounds, and likely very friendly when not around W. Seems there's a lot of people that find that very attractive, may also be vulnerable at this point in their lives, and that would be a set back in your relationship that might be hard to overcome with W.

Put some thought into what 2.0 looks like. I think you'll find that worthwhile.

Keep up the good work and don't let the spew stick to you.

AJ

[late30s]

The analogy of it being like a child and tough love is spot on. But be careful not to become the "parent". You're not that person, and you don't need to be cast as that person. It's not the right fit and will mire you down in a bad dynamic.

This is one of the areas I feel like I really need to be careful with. She has mentioned before that it's like I'm her father, and this was prespewfest. I didn't agree with her then, but I've since come to realize that how she felt wasn't really up for argument. I don't want her to feel this way any longer.

You know what you want for her. You know what you want from her. You know what you want in general. But let's just say you get part of what you want. What would that be? What are you willing to accept in lieu of getting all of it. Not that getting all of it is out of reach. It's anyone's guess at this point. But what are your priorities in that list?

I'd very much like to say that a healthy marriage with her is at the top of that list, but it isn't. First and foremost I would like to see her move beyond the selfish, angry person she is at the moment. That would move to the second priority, I'd like to see her be a good mother to our kids again. She's really dropped the ball in this regard, but I don't think she can be a good mother without moving out of her current funk. After those two, it would be our marriage restored.

It's likely going to be a long time while you wait. What are you doing for you? What are you doing to GAL and reinvent yourself? To build the rest of that family unit you want?

In terms of getting a life. I have started working a lot, while that isn't exactly GAL, it does provide me the means to move in the direction I want to. I have been reconnecting with friends I haven't seen in years. I am involved with my side of the family again, during our M, my family was put on the back burner. Saturday's have become family day. Trips to various national parks, building up camping equipment.

When I was growing up, I had to be very self sufficient. If I wanted to go somewhere, I had to figure it out on my own. I carried this mindset into adulthood and my boys have seen it. Rarely would I give them a ride anywhere. I have changed that mindset and have made myself pretty available to my kids.

What does Late30's 2.0 start to look like in your future vision? Just you. I suspect there are a few things you'd like to change about yourself, right? What are they?

I'd like to be more empathetic. I want to get into the gym and channel this weight loss further. I want to quit smoking. I'd like to get caffeine out of my system. I'd like to have more restraint. There are times if I get some notion in my head, I usually speak on that matter fairly quickly. Often times with poor timing. I'd love to have complete control over my temper. I rarely get angry, but when I do I tend to be very abrasive with my words. Almost going from ice cold to boiling hot instantly. It generally passes in 15-30 seconds, but I would like to keep from saying things I will regret later.

One more thought for the night Be careful of other women. You're a bit vulnerable, down 40 pounds, and likely very friendly when not around W. Seems there's a lot of people that find that very attractive, may also be vulnerable at this point in their lives, and that would be a set back in your relationship that might be hard to overcome with W.

Almost like you're in my head, heh. Seems that I stop to remind myself of this more often than I used to. Though it was a nice little ego boost to have the 22 year old blonde hitting on me. I had to stop and laugh at myself after the fact, going through all this and I found myself considering one of the most classic MLC moves -- pursuing someone nearly half my age. I didn't consider it long and am able to chuckle about it now, but if I am being honest with myself, I did consider it.

Put some thought into what 2.0 looks like. I think you'll find that worthwhile.

I'll do that. I will have a comprehensive list in a few days. Thanks again, AJ.

[late30s]

Journal and stuff:

D12 was with W today. I get a text from W saying that D12 will have her phone today. I called D12 this morning and discovered that W had put D12 on a bus (public transit type) to get her to school. Sent her by herself because she can't afford the bus fare for both of them. This may be me being hyper protective of D12 (I know that I am) but this idea made me very uncomfortable.

My initial reaction was shocked and a bit of anger in my voice. I told D12 to have a nice day. Gave it some thought as I was driving to work and called her back. Decided that since I was the one who was uncomfortable with this, it is my problem. I told D12 that I would be picking her up from school and driving her back. She called W and told her this, which put W into a frenzy. I didn't know W was in a frenzy and had already decided that I wasn't going to point fingers in blame.

So D12 got out of school and I picked her up. She called OMs phone from Ws phone and started to talk to W. I asked for the phone and started talking to W. Asked W to meet me at a strip mall near her apartment complex to drop off D, was met with some spew, but she did meet me there. (I won't go to their apartment anymore and she knows this.)

Asked W to sit down a minute so we could talk, D12 put in her headphones and W became immediately defensive. Took a little while but I finally convinced her that I wasn't angry, but I was uncomfortable with D12 riding the bus alone. More defensive stuff from W, which I responded to be assuring her she didn't need to be defensive. Told since I was the person that this made uncomfortable, that I would take care of it. Be it I drive down and get D12 in the morning and take her to school on the 2 days she is with W or I would send D12 with enough bus fare so she wouldn't have to ride the bus alone.

To be fair, I can understand why W was on the defensive, old Late would have been very upset about this and would have lectured and or yelled at W as a result. Perhaps a 180 for Late? I think so. I feel good with how I handled myself, even empathized with Ws financial woes a little. (Her decision to be in this, but it does make common things difficult.)

I got off work and didn't have to deliver pizza tonight. I picked up D12 and W. Dropped D12 off at home, W and I went to a park. Hung out for a while, she talked to me about what is going on with her. I managed to keep my trap shut and gathered valuable intel. (Thanks Cali!)

Seems OM didn't get fired, he quit. No hope of any unemployment to bail him out. He hasn't been looking for work. W works fifteen hours a week. She is fed up. Can't stand his friends, can't stand his daughter and is quickly losing patience for him. Said that our S18 talked to her about getting an apartment with her. Told her I liked the idea, gives her a chance to work on her without me or OM in the picture. She agreed that she could use that, but time will tell if that is the truth or not.

W told me she doesn't want to work any longer. Wants to focus on her artwork (she is very talented). Wants to get a puppy. Wants a whole family. (I am still of the believe none of what they say mindset.) She is very jealous of my life now? Says her life is going to sh** and mine is headed up. Doesn't think it's fair. I did tell her I was willing to share what I had with her. (Pursuing methinks, I am still working out this DBing thing.)

All in all I feel like today went very well. Was able to show her a 180 with my reaction to how she handled getting D to school. Managed to keep my mouth shut for the most part. I avoided my issues with her entirely. She was warm and friendly when we parted ways (temp checking, we did part ways so she could return to OMs apartment). I even managed to not get defensive when the spew started and she apologized later. (Big thing for her, she RARELY apologizes.)


Stuff:
Link to the other thread I could find of AJs, http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1761045#Post1761045

Bad Joke,

3 old men are at the doctor for a memory test. The doctor says to the first old man, "What is three times three"? "274" was his reply. The doctor says to the second man "It's your turn. What is three times three"? "Tuesday" replies the second man. The doctor says to the third man, "OK, Your turn. What's three times three"? "Nine" says the third man. "That's great" says the doctor. "How did you get that"? "Simple" says the third man. "I subtracted 274 from Tuesday".

[AJM]

LOL. I like that joke.

I think you're doing fine with the immediate changes and how you're handling the interactions. Keep up that trajectory.

Looking forward to the list.

AJ

[late30s]

Update time:

Wife was with me this weekend. Saturday went well. She talked a lot, I listened. She told me we could discuss R stuff on Sunday.

Sunday was up and down, I did talk to her about some R stuff, basically trying to figure out where he head is at and where she is headed. Laid a few more things about what I would need to see if she were to return home. She talked a lot as well.

Some of the things she had to say stuck with me. Seems she is going to lose her apartment. Short of a miracle, she and OM will be unable to make rent before they are served an eviction notice. Told her that I do want her to come back home, but only for the right reasons. I don't think it would be good for us at this time for her to come back due to a lack of options. At this point she is considering a studio apartment, moving in with BIL, or getting an apartment with S18. She tells me she doesn't intend to follow OM because she wants some time alone to figure things out. Believe none of what they say still echos in the back of my head, but I am hopeful. Assume the best, prepare for the worst is my mindset at this point.

I listened to her rant about her life quite a bit the past couple of days. She is very depressed right now. Feels like nothing is "right" in her life. Told me that OM has "spent two years shredding her life." That he is a child. She is frustrated that he quit his job with no notice and is not making any real efforts to find gainful employment. Again, I find myself hopeful here, but will not push the issue. I hope that she is starting to see OM for what he is and I also hope that she is moving down her tunnel a little further. Not many things were my fault in this discussion and the things she said were my fault were justified. I've been critical to her, she is afraid to return to our old M. No crazy accusations headed my way. I also see that this is merely a small step in the right direction. Many parts of our discussion worry me. Mainly her trying to paint herself as the victim in every situation. I didn't say anything to her about it.

All in all, I felt pretty good with this weekend. I never lost my cool, though she did say a few times that she felt I was being critical. It is becoming more difficult for me to see, but I think a lot of it dates back to our M when I was overly critical. I think she has become hypersensitive to this. I feel like if I can cross this threshold with her, where she isn't hypersensitive to every little thing I say, we may just have a chance. Or perhaps I am still critical, not as overtly perhaps? This part does concern me because this part of Late 1.0 that I don't want to see in the upgrade.

[late30s]

So some reflection ... things I want to see in my new self or part of my old self I want to leave behind.

Left Behind:
*Jealousy
*Being overly critical
*Controlling behavior
*Making comments in anger

New Me:
*Great Father(*)
*Empathetic
*Kind
*Able to clearly state and enforce my own boundaries(*)
*Fit(*)
*Non-smoker(*)
*Funny(*)
*Able to STFU and listen(*)
*Able to forgive(*)
*Successful Software Engineer(*)
*More involved with family (extended family)(*)
*Reliable
*Helpful
*Patient
*Happy with who I am (*)
*Introspection (*)

(*) denotes a quality that needs work to be integrated into Late 2.0

Thanks, AJ. I will review this often, see what I would like to add if anything.

[late30s]

It occurs to me that I would also like to chronicle what I am doing to remove the behaviors I am unhappy with.

Jealousy / Controlling behavior: I reached a point some time ago where I accepted that I can't control Ws behavior, or anyone else's. One part that helped me a lot was considering the following. If W makes plans to go out for an evening without me, I could react in a number of ways. If I panic and allow jealousy to take control of me, I am showing W that I do not trust her or her judgement. By acting in this way, I push W further away. If instead I accept that W will do what W will do, that it is beyond my ability to control and simply wish her a good time. I show an element of trust. I build on our foundation. W doesn't feel like she has to hide as much or be scolded / lectured for her behavior (Not my place to do). Makes for a lot less stress for me and for her. She is able to enjoy herself. I believe it is a love builder and not a love buster. I have adopted this approach to the current situation, more for my own sanity than anything else. Allowing myself to be jealous was serving no positive purpose and only served to increase my stress levels. W still did what W wanted to do.

Being overly critical: This is something I have been exposed to my entire life. People in my family have been very critical of every action I have ever done and I find that I have been critical as well. When I first started working on this, I had to stop and ask myself, "How do I become less critical?" This one has been very hard. What has worked for me in some regard is to think carefully before I speak. Means an awkward silence sometimes, but I prefer that to my being critical. I think about the point I want to make and think if there is some way to make my point without being critical. If there is great, if I can't think of one I ask if I can answer the question later or I simply say nothing. Accepting that I don't need to have a say on every subject has helped in this as well. This one continues to be a work in progress.

Making comments in anger: I am improving here. Being able to accept awkward silences while I ponder a reply has helped quite a bit. Only really get angry with W at this point and that is happening less and less. This continues to be a work in progress as well.

[CaliGuy]

late

Always good to get to those core things that one must work on... regardless of your sitch, these are healthy to rid yourself of right ... for YOU ... do not worry about the effects they have on W, while what she has done may have put this all into motion...changing for her is not the way to go about this.

That list of yours, can you see the strings that tie them all together? One leads to the other and so on ... You are Jealous, you try to control, you criticize then you become angry at the results not meeting your own expectations.

Jealousy/Control ... I feel were a couple of the things I had to deal with, something that flared up over my life with W and I put it into my own perspective. What did being controlling and jealous with my W gain me ... well when I acted out this way she simply stopped sharing with me things, which lead to relationships with men underground, this added to the excitement and eventually when the planets aligned a full blown affair. My fears then became reality. Lesson learned, God himself gave us all free will, not even He can control his children who did I think I was to think I could possibly control W? Now ... she either wants to be with me or doesn't, her choice .. free will.

Critisim... was not something I did much of, I was more the Passive/Aggressive type. But same approach ... before you act out in this way you have to sip a STFU smoothie and ask yourself, is this 2.0 type behavior .. or am I letting the hurt little boy talk here? If I could not hear John Wayne/ Clint Eastwood repeat my words I chose not to say them.

Anger ... by far my toughest challenge and my W still reserved even 2 years after BD about this coming out ... I have made huge strides but its like lava bubbling under the surface at times. Patience, breathing, taking a walk to really sort out what is going on, is it an over-reation or should I be upset. Accepting Anger is a natural emotion, not one you always have to suppress helped me out as I felt every time I was angry it was wrong to experience that feeling, which fed it more out of frustration. Sometimes its ok to get mad, its how you deal with that which liberates you from it.

Keep going late.

[late30s]

That list of yours, can you see the strings that tie them all together? One leads to the other and so on ... You are Jealous, you try to control, you criticize then you become angry at the results not meeting your own expectations.

I had only seen it so far as Jealousy => Control. I certainly agree with you.

A different Yoda said, Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

I think a version I can relate to: Jealousy is the path to doomed marriages. Jealousy leads to Control. Control leads to Criticism. Criticism leads to Anger. Anger leads to doomed marriage.

Jealousy/Control ... I feel were a couple of the things I had to deal with, something that flared up over my life with W and I put it into my own perspective. What did being controlling and jealous with my W gain me ... well when I acted out this way she simply stopped sharing with me things, which lead to relationships with men underground, this added to the excitement and eventually when the planets aligned a full blown affair. My fears then became reality. Lesson learned, God himself gave us all free will, not even He can control his children who did I think I was to think I could possibly control W? Now ... she either wants to be with me or doesn't, her choice .. free will.

Wise words. By and large I have reached this point.

Critisim... was not something I did much of, I was more the Passive/Aggressive type. But same approach ... before you act out in this way you have to sip a STFU smoothie and ask yourself, is this 2.0 type behavior .. or am I letting the hurt little boy talk here? If I could not hear John Wayne/ Clint Eastwood repeat my words I chose not to say them.

In my mind it will be Yoda. Makes for more interesting deliveries.

Anger ... by far my toughest challenge and my W still reserved even 2 years after BD about this coming out ... I have made huge strides but its like lava bubbling under the surface at times. Patience, breathing, taking a walk to really sort out what is going on, is it an over-reation or should I be upset. Accepting Anger is a natural emotion, not one you always have to suppress helped me out as I felt every time I was angry it was wrong to experience that feeling, which fed it more out of frustration. Sometimes its ok to get mad, its how you deal with that which liberates you from it.

I really appreciate all the advise, Cali. Thank you so much for following my sitch. It does mean a lot. You're awesome for a Chargers fan!