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Thanks, Cali.

I like to tell myself that I did this for me. I spent nearly a month reflecting on it. Very much of the mindset that any drastic changes that I make to this situation need to be given ample consideration.

As far as the tests. They worry me. I like to believe I am strong-willed and with most people, they have no sway over me. She does though. She knows exactly what to say and how to say it in order to get me to start listening. It will be a challenge for me to remain firm on this, but I can't have her in my life if she is okay with OM being in hers.

Live for today and see what tomorrow brings I guess.

Thanks again, Cali.


M: 38 W: 37
T: 20 M: 19
Kids: Stepson?20, S19, S16, D12
BD: 02/19/2015 (She moved out)
PA Confirmed: 02/22/2015 (She is now living with OM)
Dazed and confused: 09/13/2015
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,523
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Originally Posted By: late30s
Thanks, Cali.

I like to tell myself that I did this for me. I spent nearly a month reflecting on it. Very much of the mindset that any drastic changes that I make to this situation need to be given ample consideration.

As far as the tests. They worry me. I like to believe I am strong-willed and with most people, they have no sway over me. She does though. She knows exactly what to say and how to say it in order to get me to start listening. It will be a challenge for me to remain firm on this, but I can't have her in my life if she is okay with OM being in hers.

Live for today and see what tomorrow brings I guess.

Thanks again, Cali.


I can relate ... all we can do is look in the mirror and as we see that person look back realize he did all he can, he is a solid dude, and did the best with the hand he was dealt.

As far as the tests ... yeah .. totally get that and heck I will do one better. After 20+ years not only do they know the buttons, they have the locations of all the secret passages ... and with mine, she knew even when I did not say anything, like she was tapped into my brain and could tell when I was pulling away and she would slowly reel me in without me realizing it. We were connected on THAT kind of level that made detaching so hard for me.

In time, I changed those buttons, locked the secret passages, and ... yeah .. I wore tinfoil on my head to keep her and the government out.

Just remember, its not a sprint .. its a marathon, stay hydrated ... I read somewhere "I may quit, I may just give this all up .... but not today"


M: 48
W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



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late30s Offline OP
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Yeah, I remind myself of that often. That it isn't a sprint. Seems like I am reminding myself of that more often now than I did a few months ago.

Thinking I need to let go completely. Assume we are done. Move on with my life. Trying to look back at her and what we had is just too painful. Look in the mirror and look to what I can achieve without her. If she decides to join me at some point, we can discuss it then. Quickly reaching the point where she'll need to prove to me that he is gone before we can do anything. Which means she can't just move out of there and move back in with me, there will need to be some cooling off period.

Of course, last I heard they were talking marriage. Good luck to them with that train wreck. I don't want to be anywhere near it.


M: 38 W: 37
T: 20 M: 19
Kids: Stepson?20, S19, S16, D12
BD: 02/19/2015 (She moved out)
PA Confirmed: 02/22/2015 (She is now living with OM)
Dazed and confused: 09/13/2015
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,622
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Do I read that correctly? She still and always has loved you and was talking marriage with this OM?
Did you also mention that she knows what to say to keep you listening?

Whenever I hear somebody say they need to "find themselves" I cringe and remember I hate Oprah for those words (and many other falsehoods she spreads via her infomercials.)

I don't buy the "I need to find myself" per se. I buy the idea that I don't know what I want. Or that I focused on somebody so much I lost my identity without them. In a marriage, there are those that say you should become one with one another. That implies a loss of individual identity. I.e. one is no longer important without the other. They became a pair.

Reality is that you only need "finding yourself" when you are describing figuring out your identity without the other person in my opinion.

While she's bat chit crazy... keep your distance. I heard some similar things and my radar is pinging very loudly at your description.

Go slow and put some more thought into the idea that she'll have to prove she wants to be there, OM is long gone, and she wants to make the marriage work for the right reasons before you talk to her again.

That'd be my $0.02 worth.


AJ


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK
Put the glass down...
"Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world
Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
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I've discovered that NC is difficult here. It's hard on me and we still need to communicate about the kids. (Mainly D12, rest is between her and my boys.) She told me today that S16 won't respond to her and that it is my fault. I told her I stopped getting involved in their relationship some time ago and any issues they have are between them.

We are speaking a bit again. So far nothing serious. Not sure how rock firm I can be on this. Situation is painful when I am involved, painful when I am not involved. Simply working on a lot of space at the moment and gearing myself up to telling her she can't move back home yet. (Assuming she's going to try once she loses the apartment they share.)

You read it correctly, AJ. And yes, she absolutely knows how to keep me hooked. The signals have been very mixed. All over the board. Goes from get out of my life to I want to come home often.

On your identity part, I agree with you, I think that is part of the problem for many LBSs, myself included. A large part of me was her, I'm still working on finding me without her. I think the healthier option is to already know who you are before your marriage goes down the tubes, not to be so co-dependent. I wasn't there and while I can't say I didn't see this coming, she was unhappy before she left. I thought we were much closer to working it out than we were obviously.

You offer wise advise, as always. I will be doing my best to go slow.

So when she was 22, she was diagnosed with major depression. She was told she would need to take anti-depressants for the rest of her life. She stuck with those for a while, a couple of years. She had an on again off again relationship with them. When she was taking them, I could always see a major difference. Well, she has been off of them for the past five years or so. Been drinking more. She's at the point now where she's drunk 3-5 nights per week. This is the most depressed I have ever seen her. She did talk to me about seeing a therapist, which I think is an excellent idea.

Point being, the depression makes me spin even more. I ask myself sometimes, is this W talking or the depression? I worry that one day she starts to wake up and realizes everything that she has done. Everything she has lost. I am worried that she won't survive that day. She's tried to hurt herself before and it does concern me. I feel like during this awakening process, she'll need to make amends with me. (Perhaps I am being conceited here) I feel like if that ship has sailed, she may check out for good. While I can get behind it is her life and they are her choices, she should have to face the consequences, it is harder for me to take that approach when the consequences could literally be life or death.

Please, club away. I'm sure I have earned it.


M: 38 W: 37
T: 20 M: 19
Kids: Stepson?20, S19, S16, D12
BD: 02/19/2015 (She moved out)
PA Confirmed: 02/22/2015 (She is now living with OM)
Dazed and confused: 09/13/2015
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,622
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Club away? Don't think that's necessary, do you? You're much harder on you than anyone else so far.

Depression for her adult life?
Drinking?
Not taking the meds after taking them for years?
Not sure what she wants?

As for your identity - I firmly disagree with the idea of having one separate like you describe. I'm firmly in the camp of bonding and becoming one entity. My identity is not important in the scheme of things - my marriage and family are.

That, and having been through it, I can tell you that identity can and should be rebuilt from time to time anyway. I have no issues with that. I'm a young, healthy man that can and should reinvent himself at various times in his life. No worries.

I'm serious when I say that you should be careful about letting her back. This seems oddly familiar to me in a lot of ways and I'm quite sure how it will end if she comes back and doesn't deal with her issues. She needs to be firmly of the mind of working on the marriage before returning. No exceptions.

My opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

AJ


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK
Put the glass down...
"Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world
Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
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Meant to add - what is it you want from her? What do you want for her?

Same for you?


AJ


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK
Put the glass down...
"Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world
Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
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Originally Posted By: AJM

Depression for her adult life?

Yes, she thinks it stems back to when she was 12 years old or so.

Drinking?

It has been an issue for years. I tried many times to "fix it" for her. Realized she isn't going to budge on it till she wants to. She has been the drink till there is no more booze type drinker. Just didn't buy booze often. She has bought it with more and more frequency as this situation started playing itself out. She is now drunk 4-5 night / week, possibly more.

Not taking the meds after taking them for years?

Yes. Part of my initial pleading with her was to get beg her to start seeing someone and get back on her meds.

As for your identity - I firmly disagree with the idea of having one separate like you describe. I'm firmly in the camp of bonding and becoming one entity. My identity is not important in the scheme of things - my marriage and family are.

I agree with you on that as well. My issue is from the perspective of a LBS.

I'm serious when I say that you should be careful about letting her back. This seems oddly familiar to me in a lot of ways and I'm quite sure how it will end if she comes back and doesn't deal with her issues. She needs to be firmly of the mind of working on the marriage before returning. No exceptions.

On this I believe I can be strong. I have zero desire to go through anything like this ever again.

My opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

I respect and admire your opinion. It is worth a lot. You and Cali are both very wise.


M: 38 W: 37
T: 20 M: 19
Kids: Stepson?20, S19, S16, D12
BD: 02/19/2015 (She moved out)
PA Confirmed: 02/22/2015 (She is now living with OM)
Dazed and confused: 09/13/2015
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,523
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Originally Posted By: late30s
I've discovered that NC is difficult here. It's hard on me and we still need to communicate about the kids. (Mainly D12, rest is between her and my boys.) She told me today that S16 won't respond to her and that it is my fault. I told her I stopped getting involved in their relationship some time ago and any issues they have are between them.


I read this yesterday but was on my way out ... and could not reply the way I like to ... ya know .. long winded ... from the phone.

Late ... NC with kids is just impossible, no getting around that. What I did was just went NC when it came to anything but S .... W figured this out over time and would use this as a hidden door to communicate .... ie pic of S, to which I would reply every now n then "cute pic ...TY" and she would fire back something nice n sweet just to make sure I was still on the hook. Took some time to wiggle off that hook for me.
S8 and W too had issues ... Like you .. I opt'd for the "The R between you and S is just that .. .between you and S" this worked for some time till W was convinced I was plotting S against her, which led to a truth dart that it was not me who kissed OM in front of S then labeling OM just a "friend" ... kids do understand a lie when they hear one. This was towards the end of the A.

Originally Posted By: late30s

We are speaking a bit again. So far nothing serious. Not sure how rock firm I can be on this. Situation is painful when I am involved, painful when I am not involved. Simply working on a lot of space at the moment and gearing myself up to telling her she can't move back home yet. (Assuming she's going to try once she loses the apartment they share.)

You read it correctly, AJ. And yes, she absolutely knows how to keep me hooked. The signals have been very mixed. All over the board. Goes from get out of my life to I want to come home often.


This is the tough part ... they want you where they left you, they will expect to cake eat ... keep you as option #2 as long as they can. Almost like training wheels ... afraid to ride without them or the LBS having a hold of that bike fearing they will crash. Amazing what seems to happen when the LBS is able to drop the rope from a place of strength.

Absolutely listen to AJ, dude is not only wise, he will ask you a question that sits in your craw for a few days ... forcing you to soul search before you can truly answer. Do not have that door open for her right now, nor the light on. Makes me think of Forest Gump when Jenny would just come and go as she wanted and that poor stupid man just went along with it.

Originally Posted By: late30s

On your identity part, I agree with you, I think that is part of the problem for many LBSs, myself included. A large part of me was her, I'm still working on finding me without her. I think the healthier option is to already know who you are before your marriage goes down the tubes, not to be so co-dependent. I wasn't there and while I can't say I didn't see this coming, she was unhappy before she left. I thought we were much closer to working it out than we were obviously.

You offer wise advise, as always. I will be doing my best to go slow.


I think its just nearly impossible to expect a LBS who is still dazed and confused from BD to detach after 20 years with someone. I had no idea who I was without my W, which was part of the problem .... I slowly and surely stopped being me, and to be honest it was not like I could go back 20 years and dig out the old me and say .. here I am .. now Love me. This is why I think the reinvention portion of this is so vital .... seems more so for the LBH as our confidence/self esteem seems so tightly bound to how we are perceived as attractive... which is rough as that's exactly what takes the biggest hit with the BD, A and OM in the situation.

Originally Posted By: late30s
So when she was 22, she was diagnosed with major depression. She was told she would need to take anti-depressants for the rest of her life. She stuck with those for a while, a couple of years. She had an on again off again relationship with them. When she was taking them, I could always see a major difference. Well, she has been off of them for the past five years or so. Been drinking more. She's at the point now where she's drunk 3-5 nights per week. This is the most depressed I have ever seen her. She did talk to me about seeing a therapist, which I think is an excellent idea.

Point being, the depression makes me spin even more. I ask myself sometimes, is this W talking or the depression? I worry that one day she starts to wake up and realizes everything that she has done. Everything she has lost. I am worried that she won't survive that day. She's tried to hurt herself before and it does concern me. I feel like during this awakening process, she'll need to make amends with me. (Perhaps I am being conceited here) I feel like if that ship has sailed, she may check out for good. While I can get behind it is her life and they are her choices, she should have to face the consequences, it is harder for me to take that approach when the consequences could literally be life or death.

Please, club away. I'm sure I have earned it.


No Clubs ... as AJ said .. you already self inflict plenty ... but even then in this case I do not see anything club-worthy.

The meds, depression, and drinking are tough. My W has had bouts with the depression ... like you I was/am scared about her facing what she has done and really flipping out about it. Seems currently we are in a "Don't ask/Don't Tell" policy ... but I see her crack here n there.
Thing is ... what I learned the hard way. You can not fix her depression, you can not talk her through it, during the crisis I had to force myself from trying to 'help'. I would protect S and do what I could there ... but W needed to figure it all out without me. Was like tough love parents at times have to do with their own kids ... in a "We Love you but can no longer watch you do this to yourself" approach. W during a dark moment begged me not to leave, knowing OM was in the picture Also knowing he was not there to take care of her .... and reading here to let the OM fill ALL her needs .. I told her I could no longer be that guy ... she cried and said "But you are my Rock" ... I reached into the water feature we had bought years ago .. placed a rock in her hand and told her "Here is your new rock, I can no longer be a part of this life you are leading" and out the door I went ..... cringing the entire time mind you as I realized I just handed my hot-blooded W a very hard projectile.

I am not saying ditch her late ... but she fired you, for the time being let OM fill ALL her needs... sounds like this is not going to happen, which is good.... she needs some alone time to sort out the mess, figure out what she wants ... all while you are creating a better version of yourself.


M: 48
W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



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Originally Posted By: AJM
Meant to add - what is it you want from her?

I want her to be committed to healthy, fulfilling marriage and part of a complete family. I want to sit in the delivery room with her when our grandchildren are born. I want to experience our kids getting married themselves, together.

What do you want for her?

I want her to come to terms with her demons and start living a happy life. Even if that life doesn't include me.

Same for you?

I want a marriage and a family without all of this drama. I'd like for my family unit to be a place where all of us draw strength. I want to grow old with her, move into our twilight years together. Enjoy being grandparents and go see the world. I do want this with W.


M: 38 W: 37
T: 20 M: 19
Kids: Stepson?20, S19, S16, D12
BD: 02/19/2015 (She moved out)
PA Confirmed: 02/22/2015 (She is now living with OM)
Dazed and confused: 09/13/2015
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