Ghost Riding

[jim0987]

Hi Zeus,

I find your anger really interesting on this.

Let me start by saying I agree with you entirely about the attitude to D. I was appalled at the rallying around my XWs friends and family did congratulating her fur being so strong to walk out, to break up our family and jump into bed with OM1.

As weddings have got more expensive, marriages have been cheapened.

My XW and her three best friends have 5 failed marriages between them - the longest being 3 years the shortest being 2 weeks (really).

So I'm apalled by it but my anger is because this idea of disposable marriages has hurt me and my kids.

But I'm interested to know more about your anger and what you think is driving it? For example I watched that link dmbfan posted and to me its very in line with DB and the speaker is critical of affairs even if she says that positives can come from it. Anger certainly wasn't my reaction so I thought I'd ask you why you feel it was yours?

[Zues126]

In retrospect I wasn't really angry about the video, and as I said I agreed with much of what she had to say. A lot of it was simply discussing the driving needs people have that prompt them to desire more than they have in their R, discussion about how easy it is these days in a digital age to have different betrayals, and was overall just informational.

What I disagree with was her clinical attitude. The concept that people have always cheated and always will, so we must learn from it and grow from it. This suggests that it is an inevitable part of life and frames it in a very positive way. As I mentioned before, I feel this narrative is a further step towards social acceptance which I strongly oppose.

The fact is that we've done a lot of things for millenia. Humans have fought wars, stolen from each other, murdered each other, raped each other, enslaved each other...and people that are victims of those wrong doings have grown from those experiences as well at times. Look at Victor Frankl's "Man Search For Meaning", he learned a lot in a concentration camp. But to take that a step further and say that these acts are part of human nature, unavoidable and unpreventable, so we should relax about it and harness the positives and learn from them?

No. The correct answer is that these actions are NOT OK. Under any circumstance. Regardless of how gracefully the betrayed party grows from the experience. And the correct answer is that while we'll never achieve the goal of eliminating these behaviors from our species, we can work together to minimize them by spreading the word that they are NOT acceptable, for any reason, regardless of the outcome. And that each of us gets to cast their vote by our personal behavior...whether we remain faithful, whether we challenge our friends when we hear of them walking down that path, whether we pass this message...or whether we cheat, rationalize, minimize, and validate these choices.

You know my vote.

[Zues126]

***Long post*** OK. I will write up why I think I bring a lot to a relationship, why I fear it would never be enough, and why I am frustrated with my desires and imperfections. First of all, remember that it’s very hard to find words for these things. I wrote this out in 20 minutes in one draft, if I contradict myself later (or even in this rant) understand it was a stream of consciousness, it’s not so easy to define one’s self.

I am sorry if this comes across as conceited. Remember…the underlying feelings can all be summed up with “I’m incredibly awesome in so many ways, but ultimately broken and not worth the bother”. Like a luxury German import which looks awesome and would be the dream car, but the electrical system doesn’t work and service costs would be prohibitive, so we’ll take the Chevy. I realize that when I wrote why a woman wouldn’t want me I was still defensive and trying to explain myself, but it’s hard to write about this stuff people, so please be patient. OK, jumping in now, maybe I’ll write a recap at the bottom.

Why I’m an awesome catch:
I believe life is too precious not to share love, and I have a lot of love to give. I am extremely sensitive to others feelings and my own, yet as strong as anyone I’ve met. Tolerant of other’s faults because I know I have my own. Loyal to the death, and would never leave, cheat, or betray. I believe in being with one woman only in my life, and while I have had two women in my life now, I intended to be lifelong partners with each of them and would’ve been had they not left. I am willing to compromise and flex in what I get out of my life to make the life my partner wants possible as well. To put my partner ahead of all else except for God, even my children, as I believe marriage comes first and that is the best example and foundation from which to lead a family. I have a great sense of humor and am extremely passionate. People tell me I am inspirational. I am intelligent and gifted, and am a leader and a champion at what I take on. I have an unparalleled work ethic and strive to give my best at all I do every day. As a result I earn a good income and will always be able to provide for my family, including my partner. I am lavish with my affection, from words of love, to back rubs, to cuddling, to romantic gestures and outings. I am a world class competitor, and if my partner enjoys rooting for her man she will get to see me take on and achieve many unbelievable accomplishments. I am a good family man, I bring out great things in my children, inspire them to new heights, draw out their sense of adventure, and give them grounded attitudes and outlooks to deal with the challenges life brings. I don’t smoke, drink, do drugs, gamble, and I have steered away from porn. I go to church on Sundays and talk about those lessons with my kids. I am old fashioned in that I like time without the interruptions of texting and phone calls, and avoid social media, so my company will be devoted. I would be happy learning about my partner, who she is, how she feels, what she wants, likes and needs, and doing my best to learn how to provide it to her every day I draw breath, all while celebrating the joy of being together. Yet I would also understand that marriage has seasons, and that there will be times when we grow different directions, and then I would stand by and grow with the times, let go of what is gone, and learn to love the new relationship that we can develop. I have the faith to trust God to reward our compassion and love for each other with what we need, even if it doesn’t always look like what we want. All I know for sure is that she would always be in my heart and mind as I moved through my life, trying to live in a way worthy of the one that I was blessed to have as a companion, and showing her my appreciation the best I could.

Why a healthy woman wouldn’t want me:
I can get angry. While I never hit or shout insults, and rarely lose my temper, I do blow up once or twice a year. I get very intense and my fury is scary. A healthy woman would think this is abuse and not want to put up with me.
My sexual desires are raging. It’s like my body thinks I am here to impregnate every female on the planet, and reminds me of that perpetually throughout the day until I am overwhelmed by lust. Don’t mistake desire with want. That’s not what I want. What I want is a woman that can try to grasp the depths of my desires and appreciate that I would deny acting on any of them because I only want to be satisfied by the one I love, if in turn she’d show me her love by fanning those flames when it was just her and me, being willing to give herself to me completely and longing to satisfy me. She would want to learn my fantasies and playfully partake in many of them over the years to keep our sex lives vibrant and fulfilling. I’d of course love to reciprocate! And she would understand this is a core need of mine, to be met consistently through the years even when she didn’t always desire it herself, or when life was busy, or I wasn’t living up to all of her expectations. A healthy woman would be appalled by my desires, view those needs as perversions, show disinterest in my desires and unilaterally define how our sex life would look, dismiss the notion that sex is a need or that she should ever feel obligated to give herself to me unless she wanted to, because it is her body and her rights, sex should be when both partners want it, and she doesn’t have those feelings right now, particularly for some guy with disgusting fantasies and creepy hungers.
I have a personality disorder. I am not normal. My passion, intensity, drive towards perfection, longing for meaningful connection, all great…but obviously something is different. I am introverted, completely disinterested in the things that many people do such as watching sports, drinking beers after work at a happy hour, etc. I have racing thoughts, expansive thinking, am extremely sensitive and feel things very strongly, can be tiring to be around because I am so intense, am very longwinded at times, and have extreme views on many things. A healthy woman would find this exhausting and exasperating, and would just want a ‘normal’ person that isn’t so over the top about everything. She would have a line-up of diagnosis for my mental conditions and decide that she doesn’t need those problems in her life.
All in all, she’d simply decide that I was way more trouble than I was worth, that she doesn’t need to deal with my intensity, anger, extremes, desires, that I’m hard to live with, that her kids will always come first and I’ll never be more than a 3rd wheel which can be punted if I can’t fit the box she thinks I should stay in.


Conclusion: So today I saw a beautiful woman at the store I was in. I was breathtaken for a few moments. She wasn’t beautiful like “TV model”, just sincere and natural. But she struck me as a person that had things going for her. Circumstances dictated that we had a short interaction. I found myself thinking about whether she’d be interested in someone like me. Immediately I rejected the idea. I just couldn’t picture her wanting to put up with my BS, or live in an ‘old fashioned’ relationship in which she stayed loyal to a man with so many problems and demands, not when today it’s about being free and unencumbered to find your own happiness. So I wrote her off as out of my league, along with pretty much everyone else, because I’ll probably either stay single for the count or find some woman that has more baggage than I do and that would maybe put up with me. (Note- I wouldn’t be ready to date for a long time anyway, this was just me thinking about it)

The funny thing is that finding woman that had baggage didn’t work for me. STBX pretty much rejected me in every which way I described above and more. It occurs to me that a healthy woman actually has a BETTER chance of being prepared to collaborate and find ways to make a healthy relationship. While a broken CD woman might need an M more, she’d be less likely to make one work. So healthy must be what I’m looking for. And as I typed this out I realize I do have a lot to offer, and my problems don’t look so insurmountable.

But feelings are a mother. So this is where I am at.

The good news is I’ve got the gift of time, and the gift of some experience. I’ll keep taking steps and see where my path takes me.

[SunnyB]

Zues, where did you develop your opinions of what a "healthy woman" would want? For instance, a "healthy" woman would find listening to you exhausting. Where did you get that idea? It seems to me you have a very narrow definition of a healthy woman. Nothing you said about yourself disturbs me in the least. But how you view women kind of does..... Help me out here, Zues.

[Zues126]

Thanks for the reply sunny. You're the one that challenged me to go further down this road. I'm glad I did. It's all mixed up.

I am pretty tired, writing this took a lot out of me. I guess I have just always assumed that a woman wouldn't want to put up with this. I use 'healthy' to mean a woman that doesn't have serious lifestyle issues that would cause her to devalue herself and willingly accept a mess of a partner. For example drugs abuser, perpetually unemployed, basically someone that needed someone because anyone that had the power to choose to stay or go wouldn't stay with me. I have felt threatened by the women's movement and the shift to equality not because I don't believe in it, but because it feels like there's no reason a woman would want to be with me if she didn't have to.

The rejections in all the things I described above is how STBX reacted to me. I always thought she was healthy during our R, I thought she was the good one and I was the messed up one. I'm not going to do a complete role reversal on that, but I realize that she wasn't the person I made her out to be...I'll just leave it at that. So now I don't know anymore.

I'm confused when you say how I view women kind of disturbs you. I guess I'm not sure what you were referring to. You mention my 'narrow view' of healthy women I guess. Remember, I wasn't saying by definition a healthy woman feels all those things. I just meant healthy to mean somewhat in control of her life. All of those feelings/judgments/reactions were just what I projected on to her, how I'm afraid she'll react to finding out who I am. Does that make sense?

Writing this on paper it doesn't look as bad as how it feels to me. I guess that's the way it goes. But it's good to talk about it.

I don't know if that makes more sense. Feel free to ask follow ups. Thanks for your patience.

[SunnyB]

I'm confused when you say how I view women kind of disturbs you. I guess I'm not sure what you were referring to. You mention my 'narrow view' of healthy women I guess .

Yes. Let me give you an example. My H and used to go out socially with a couple I'll call Ed and Carla. Ed likes to tell stories about himself and after having known him a while I had heard those stories several times. On about the third telling my eyes glazed over and I preferred to amuse myself by watching H squirm while I ran my hand up his thigh under the table. Carla, however, hung on his every word. She must have heard those stories dozens of times and seem just as enraptured the 24th as the 1st. So.....I thought you were saying that Carla was not healthy because she would listen to Ed. Or that maybe I was unhealthy because I'd rather sneak off to the bathroom. That both of us couldn't meet the definition. It just seemed that you had a preconceived notion of healthy and it seemed pretty specific. But.....after your post this morning I see it in a different way.

I'll check back in later.

[Zues126]

Thanks Sunny. It's hard, I've been wrestling with these cycles, doubts, and feelings for years...so it's tough to sum it up in a few paragraphs. I appreciate you being able to talk it through and not jump to conclusions. I wrote a little more, some of it I've said before. Just need to keep working on it. Warning- this next rant is not well organized!


***RANT BEGIN***
I guess the overall pattern is the underlying sense that something's wrong with me. That no one normal would accept me. Then if I look to someone else to prove that wrong it doesn't work. That's a little of the dynamic in my failed M. I would feel insufficient, and feel something was wrong with me. My desires probably were just the representation of those feelings, and so I resented them, if only I didn't have those feelings I could be the person I was supposed to be! Then I'd try hard to be the best person I could be, and I'd grow frustrated that it was never good enough (even though it was my own voice rejecting myself).

Then I'd get angry, and be upset that I should be judged critically. I'd defend myself and my desires and say things like "this is just how I am", or "this is just how I'm wired". The problem is that I'd expect my W to 'approve' of me to make up for my lack of approval in myself, and the way she could prove she accepted me was to satsify my sexual desires. Since I didn't feel ok myself she never could, and this in turn led her to feel insufficient, incapable of being good enough to make me happy (yes, we were both very CD), and she would punish me by withdrawing because it was never enough for me. Then I'd be frustrated that I was being misunderstood, judged, or rejected for my needs. It was times like this I'd use porn, both as a release, and as a validation that "somewhere someone else must feel like I do or they wouldn't make stuff like this". But then I'd see my dysfunctional M and hated it, and would go back to thinking there was something wrong with me and if only I didn't have that type of desire things would be better.

Hundreds of times a day I'd be turned on in some way or shape, and each time I'd resent the trap I was in. I never really understood that it was me being critical of myself that was at the center. And if I did suspect that, I tried to deny it because I didn't know how I could change it, easier to try to solve a sex life problem.

Add in one more confession- I am so hard on myself, so critical, so demanding...I push harder than anyone I've met...but unfortunately I occasionally allow that to spill onto those I'm closest with. Never coworkers, rarely kids or friends, but I did let this pour onto my W at times. I'd treat her the way I'd treat myself, which was with disdain because it wasn't good enough. I see now that this is a poison in an M and regret ever hurting her. I always saw it as a positive, because this was the energy I channeled to become great. I wanted a great M, and somehow thought if only she pushed herself harder and got herself together and put some effort into being a better wife and person we could have a better M, but now I see that we are all different people, and it's not up to me to approve or disapprove of her life, it's up to me to love my partner and appreciate who they are.
***RANT OVER***

So I realize there is no woman that can satisfy me sexually if that means she needs to perpetually prove to me she is ok with my sexual desires and with me altogether. Only I can do that, and if I expect her to it's an impossible task that she is destined to fail at, and one that I'd no doubt be critical about, and could point at her for...'if only she'd be more sexually satisfying'...It's clear that my fears of being rejected by woman ARE based in reality, if by rejection I mean their inability to make me whole when I don't feel I am.

I am working hard on this. In my head I get it all. And I know that the hardest part of this is that I won't get to a point when I feel completely whole...as long as I think that's possible I feel like more of a failure, which is taking me backwards. But when I remind myself we're all broken humans, and that it's not about becoming perfect, it's about being ok with being flawed and not expecting anyone else to fix my lack of self-approval. So little by little I'm getting to the point where I'm screwed up a bit, but learning that's ok.

How I get to the point I can have a good R without these same patterns playing out, I don't know. I am trying to work on it by being a better dad, not being critical of my kids for being who they are, etc. I continue to avoid pornography because that can't help but give strength to my insecurities and contaminate my natural desires. And more and more I accept the person who I am. I feel proud of myself for what I'm doing. I guess I just don't know if I'll pass the test of being able to be in a good M someday. I am glad I have more time.

[Sotto]

Hi Zues, I can't remember if I have posted this to you before, but have you read any stuff by Brene Brown. She is insightful on the whole area of shame, and I wonder if you might find her books & TED talks helpful? I found them useful.

In terms of high drive, if we plotted humans on a spectrum of sexual drive, they would be all along - a continuum. I don't think there is any right and wrong in that - it just is. I think the important thing is honestly sharing with someone your innermost desires and respecting that they also have needs and preferences - and finding happiness and satisfaction within all of that. It's a complex picture, and as I have now learned....relationships aren't easy!!

I don't think the drive is problematic at all - I think it's all about what you do with it...

JMHO xx

[sandi2]

And as I typed this out I realize I do have a lot to offer, and my problems don’t look so insurmountable.

Oh, I agree!

[Zues126]

Thank you Toots, Sandi. The compassion on this board has been a powerful support for me. Toots, I'll check out the Ted Talks for sure. I've been working out almost every day and have been gobbling up these talks. Brene is on deck.

To keep things balanced with some casual updates, I will share some happy times with my kids.

The first is very funny because it is such a great representation of my personality, it is so "me", I have to share. With my daughter I have been playing "guess who", the guessing game where you use the process of elimination to identify which character card your opponent has. If you don't know the game this won't make sense. Anyway, it's a pretty luck based guessing game...OR IS IT?!? I found ways to add a few layers. First, when I saw my daughter had eliminated all options but one I knew she'd win on her next turn, so I took a guess and risked the game even though I wasn't sure who her character was, I was down to 3 but I figured a 1/3 chance was better than none. I got it right and won. My D asked why I guessed, I explained it, she got it. So then she did the same thing to me a few games later. Later we began leaving cards up that we knew were eliminated to throw our opponent off of how close we were to the finish line...it would look like I was down to 4, but then I'd guess on the next turn because I was really down to 1 but hadn't flipped them down yet.

Then I kicked it up a notch- when I could tell she had an insurmountable lead I started knocking down all types of choices until I only had one left, even though I had no clue who her character was. Basically I bluffed her, bet the game that by getting down to one card I would force her to take a wild guess and hopefully lose, since I'd never win the traditional way. After she lost I showed her what I did and she thought it was funny. Now we have these super meta-game battles of guess who wherein we're bluffing each other, sometimes to the point that when I try to get her to risk the game on a guess I go to 'level 2', knock down all but 3 cards, but make it look like I was really down to 1 and trying to disguise that by leaving 3 standing, to try to provoke an out of turn guess...

The point is my love of games, competition, strategy, etc...it took a very boring game and made it very interesting, and my little girl has mastered all of the strategies and is learning what it means to take competition to another level. I pity the 3rd grader that tries playing guess who with her next year!

As for my son...he's had a tough time. I won't go into it more than that for now, other than to say he talked about killing himself last week. He IS getting counseling help, but I don't delegate that to ANYONE. So I spent some 1:1 time with him and he opened up, cried, told me how much he hates that his old life has been destroyed, and just held me for a while sobbing.

So today I got him a special notebook and pen, and told him that it was my job to make sure he had some tools to help him as he became a man. Of course I try to teach him lessons, but I wanted to have him start writing down a theme with some notes that would remind him of what we talked about. I wanted to start with some affirmation on why I was doing this. I explained lesson one- no one's perfect, we all have problems...being strong doesn't mean not having problems, it means learning to manage the problems we have.

We had a good conversation, he took some notes, and we found a secret hiding spot for his notebook. I will spend 15-20 minutes with him each visit and keep working with him, I have a few things I want to share with him, but will do it little by little, and make sure to do plenty of review, and get him talking about his interpretations and applications.

I have a good feel for who he is, what he's dealing with, and where he's struggling. I hope what I am going to work with him on helps. If nothing else it will show that I hear his pain, love him, and am in his corner.

So, some fun and games, some nitty gritty. But I love my kids and am excited to spend time with them. Heading to an art exhibit a friend invited my family to, then to the movies. Have fun and know that I love you my DB family!