Defacto, I completely agree. There's my experience and ww experience and while both could be different, it doesn't change the way the experience made/makes her feel.
I don't discount that and have done a lot of work on pursuing, self-esteem, etc so that sex with anyone isn't my go to cure for insecurity or feeling alone/apart from anyone who cares about me - as was the case largely with her. I made her essentially my everything.
With that, she can either choose over time to accept that, do work on her own and heal or hold on to it and nothing will be the same. I have the same choices when it comes to the lying, cheating, affair hurt she did.
I continue to wish you the best and hope you and your wife and able to make choices to do the work and move closer towards each other, assuming that's what you BOTH want.
M-33 W-33 S-11, S-8 M-11, T-14 BD - 12/26, Divorce Filing and admits to affair (her) 4/18 I moved out 5/23
I was just wondering because my wife has kept several of her friends throughout the process. She started brain washing them prior to the A being exposed. It drives me crazy that they support her. It is like they have no brains. They don't even take the time to understand the truth and the hurt she is putting our children and me through. They tell her things like, you will find the special true love of your life one day. You will know and feel it when it is there. You can handle being a single mom, many women do.
Why the heck are they not saying. Stop what you are doing. Try to work things our with your husband at least for your children's sake. your moving way to fast. I just don't understand. I don't understand how anyone can support her though this. Even her parents, what the heck are they thinking. Do they honestly believe all the lies she tells them even though they have never seen me act any of the ways that she claims.
Me: 30's W: 30's M: 12yrs EA: Started 3/2015 MC Started: 4/2015 She moved out and served 6/2015 PA: Confirmed 10/5/2015 2 young kids
"If you do not stand for something you will fall for anything."
I was just wondering because my wife has kept several of her friends throughout the process. She started brain washing them prior to the A being exposed. It drives me crazy that they support her. It is like they have no brains. They don't even take the time to understand the truth and the hurt she is putting our children and me through. They tell her things like, you will find the special true love of your life one day. You will know and feel it when it is there. You can handle being a single mom, many women do.
Why the heck are they not saying. Stop what you are doing. Try to work things our with your husband at least for your children's sake. your moving way to fast. I just don't understand. I don't understand how anyone can support her though this. Even her parents, what the heck are they thinking. Do they honestly believe all the lies she tells them even though they have never seen me act any of the ways that she claims.
People in general are naive about infidelity. They just don't know what to say or how to be supportive. Waywards also have a delusional way of either mishearing someone or misconstruing everything said into being supportive of their chosen [wayward] actions. Unless you are reading or hearing this stuff yourself, don't believe that everyone is being 100% supportive of your wayward spouses activities and behavior.
Also, people are generally self centered and your wife has demonstrated by her actions that she thinks people and relationships are disposable. They don't dare confront her because she likely has already conditioned them to tell her only what she wants to hear. If they even hint at a "serious discussion" they get a stone face and then the silent treatment for a time. The truth is inconvenient to the fantasy so way wards avoid friends and family to a large extent thus the friends and family are scared she's ditching them too. Like you, they are in friendship and daughter relationship survival mode.
Sometimes, after a recovery, the friends and family will indicate that they were talking among themselves and thinking it was a bad idea but they never were given the opportunity by the wayward to give their true opinion.
A true friend would sit them down and set them straight, but way wards are squirrel'y like that and difficult to pin down.
If you recover....avoid these friends and family for awhile. Focus just on your marriage and marital relationship and put off considering or thinking about mending those friendships until later, if ever. I choose to forgive most of those persons without an apology because ignorance is bliss and I didn't need to "teach them" anything. My behavior as a man and husband thereafter speaks and spoke for itself. However, there is one former close friend of my wife's that was much more of an accomplice that we haven't seen or spoken to in over a decade. I'd forgive her if she asked, but we are in no hurry to ever reconcile a relationship. I never laid down any law about it...like "we will never speak or see her again" rather it was a joint decision in recovery that our marriage and family would be better served associating with healthy, preferably married persons that would hold us both accountable for our behavior versus unrepentant multiply divorced adulterers. Your mileage might vary.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
The incident was never discussed and we continued to ML months after the incident, including twice after BD.
Pretty good indication that it's a rationalization and justification for her affair that will subside and disappear once she's in love with you again. She ML twice after Dday, but she's still conflicted and probably each time "just didn't feel it". This is a continuing effort to say "I'm not comfortable having sex with you right now and I don't know if I will ever be". That is a common sentiment for wayward wives because women, generally and genetically, romantically "love" one man at a time. Since she's not "in love" with you right now it feels kind of "bad" to have sex with you and wonders if it will ever be OK again.
Originally Posted By: defacto
I obviously take her allegation seriously and I understand that her feelings are paramount here. I can't stress enough that I feel horrible that I made her feel that way, even if not intended. However, a part of me can't help but think she is just using this isolated incident as some justification for her actions. Immediately after I exposed A, she also made other wild, untrue allegations that haven't been brought up since.
This is DEAD on. But you don't need to educate her on this.
Originally Posted By: Defacto
Just not sure how I should respond in the future if she continues to bring up this incident...
Validate. Listen and empathize.
Maybe....IF and WHEN this continues a third...fouth...fifth time, you'll have to take this to conflict. Recall...the road to intimacy is THROUGH conflict so this isn't a bad idea. It isn't a fight. It's a discussion. You don't have to conflict avoid this, in fact, you point this out as a new relationship tool you've recently learned.
Your talking points:
1. Rape is a dangerous and unfair word to use here. Sure "no" means "no" but she did say "yes" at some point and you were never armed, never threatened her, never truly coerced her (she's been allowed to say "no" hundreds even thousands of times before without true repercussions)..
2. Honesty is important. Just as it is important for her to communicate honestly that she didn't want to have sex that night AND that after you two did have marital relations that she was actually emotionally hurt by the incident such that you could apologize and make amends in a timely fashion BEFORE she built up resentment about the incident and secretly harbored such a bitter thought, it is ALSO important for you to express YOUR feelings which would be:
a. That you are again...super sorry you ever made her feel that way and that you will do whatever you can to make amends for it. (owning it in the exact manner you hope she'd own her behavior...continue to lead or be the lighthouse by example).
b. Make suggestions for making sure this never happens again (again this is corollary to the way you hope someday she'll make amends for her affair and to make sure it doesn't happen again). For example, there is a consent app. It's not perfect but college kids (guys) are now using the app to insure, by video, that they have preauthorized documented [sober???] consent to contemporaneous sexual relations. I've never seen the app in person. Just read about it. It has flaws and it's certainly ridiculous to suggest in a marital situation but it might be a good suggestion to show the lengths you will go to to insure she never "feels" that way again. Then again (thinking to myself), you'd be a fool to have sex with her again WITHOUT express consent if she's got a "marital rape" allegation in her still pending divorce petition. She could be setting you up for a more aggressive allegation and then use it against you an unexpected child custody dispute.
[I know that sounds OUTRAGEOUS, but way wards are unpredictable and if you are the 1 in 50 guy that's being set up...at least you were forewarned]
b. That, at the same time, you can't help "FEELING" that this a convenient truth and merely a rationalization and justification for her affair with the doctor. That might make her mad, but you are just sharing your "feelings" in a calm manner. You are being honest and honesty has been a problem in your relationship. Her being mad and upset that you'd "feel" she made that up is OK. Conflict is OK. Listen and validate, but you wouldn't be being honest unless you shared your doubts.
c. Hopefully, in time, she'll come to forgive you just as you hope and believe, in time, you'll be able to forgive her. Perhaps it's good that we both have some issues coming into this potential recovery. Our kids deserve our best efforts to figure this out and clean up our respective sides of the street.
On to another point -
She asked you the other day/night if you knew what you wanted. You choose the "I'm conflicted and not sure myself" route that day which is fine in the distancing/pursuing game; HOWEVER, at some point it MAY be nice to skip to the next step in the LRT and be a little more confident. Consider also that it's attractive for a man to know what he wants and pursue it. Women also have a need/want to be cherished, desired and loved. This isn't a suggestion to pour your heart out there, buy her gifts and declare your never ending love; but, it does, perhaps, to some extent mean saying something like the following:
You: "I actually know exactly what I want"
her: "what???"
You: "I want to want you and I want you to want to want me"
her: "huh, what's that mean?"
you: "It's really a minimal emotional requirement"
her: "huh?"
you: "Let's see if I can explain this. I think you and I both logically can agree that our children deserve the best future we can provide them and that getting back together is in their best interest...wouldn't you agree?
her: "sure"
you: "That was a yes or no question, so you agree, we "should" try for them?
her: "yes" [get her saying 'yes' like any good salesperson would]
you: "But, I'm thinking that's probably not enough for either of us. I want....no I need, passion and love in my life too. I need more than just staying together "for the kids". I also know I'm not going to survive in this marriage if I don't get to ever see you looking at me the way you did on our wedding day. Do you agree, yes or no?
her: yes. (you are speaking her language - love and passion the wayward fantasy)
you: So, if we aren't "in love", this isn't going to work for either of us.
her: ok???
you: So our "problem" isn't that we both don't know what we want to do. Our problem is that we aren't in love with each other and if we both just simply decide "OK, today our kids DO, in fact, deserve our honest effort to fix this even though it will be uncomfortable and emotionally risky but we don't have to fix anything right now. We just both need to agree that we want to want to fall in love with each other and maybe make our way out of this mess". At that point, our problem simply and logically just becomes "how do we fall in love with each other again"?
you: [presume the close....that she wants to want to fall in love because who doesn't?} So how do you fall in love?
LISTEN....VALIDATE....LISTEN SOME MORE.
you: well, actually I started to compile a plan. You know, logically me and trying to engineer emotions but it occurred to me that YOU are my (and our families) emotional center. I couldn't conceive of a plan to fall in love with you without your input. Maybe that's why we are perfect for each other. A marriage can't be all emotional and it can't be all logical. I cherish the balance you've brought to my life and am prepared and willing to learn more about being and expressing myself emotionally. Will you help me?
her: help you what?
you: "learn to be more emotionally expressive in the way that you like AND give me your honest input with the recovery plan I've partially conceived in my mind."
her: "sure, I guess but I can only imagine what you've engineered in your mind. Love should just happen, it can't be planned"
you: "I so agree. But "love" doesn't happen in a vacuum. We'd have to spend time together alone and as a family. We have to date just like we did when we first met. My initial plan is pretty simple but we can discuss it later because any effort we make to recover is going to involve some conflict and arguing because avoiding conflict is one of the biggest reasons we are at this point today. Today isn't about figuring out any definite JOINT plan. Let's deal with that later...when we are a little more sure about wanting to want..... SOOOOOOO... do you want to fall in love again?
her: maybe
you: Yeah...you now KNOW what you want. Me too. I want to want to fall in love with you too. That's it. That's all we need to decide TODAY. That should be a valentines card really. Let's go have some fun and deal with this stuff later. How about Saturday...Saturday night at 8 o'clock good for you.
Don't be afraid to tell her what you want and what she should want. Ask her to agree. If she doesn't, no big deal. Just go back to distancing. She's again, not ready. If you get a chance to drop in that your "initial plan" that you worry about arguing about requires, at a minimum, if she ever expects you to "look at her as you did on your wedding day" and how you "fall in love with her" that she has to quit/change jobs. That there is zero way possible for her to expect you to actually be head or heels in passionate romantic love with her if she continues going off daily to work in any proximity to the OM. Simply ask her how she would honestly "feel" were the situations reversed. You aren't asking her to do anything she wouldn't require herself if the shoe was on the opposite foot here. If she wants you to want to fall in love with her.....that's a good way for her to show it.
Wow...that took awhile. Not around as much lately. I'm over 250 posts in and still under restriction. Not feeling very welcome here (I know, feelings aren't truth but still).
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
The incident was never discussed and we continued to ML months after the incident, including twice after BD.
Pretty good indication that it's a rationalization and justification for her affair that will subside and disappear once she's in love with you again. She ML twice after Dday, but she's still conflicted and probably each time "just didn't feel it". This is a continuing effort to say "I'm not comfortable having sex with you right now and I don't know if I will ever be". That is a common sentiment for wayward wives because women, generally and genetically, romantically "love" one man at a time. Since she's not "in love" with you right now it feels kind of "bad" to have sex with you and wonders if it will ever be OK again.
Originally Posted By: defacto
I obviously take her allegation seriously and I understand that her feelings are paramount here. I can't stress enough that I feel horrible that I made her feel that way, even if not intended. However, a part of me can't help but think she is just using this isolated incident as some justification for her actions. Immediately after I exposed A, she also made other wild, untrue allegations that haven't been brought up since.
This is DEAD on. But you don't need to educate her on this.
Originally Posted By: Defacto
Just not sure how I should respond in the future if she continues to bring up this incident...
Validate. Listen and empathize.
Maybe....IF and WHEN this continues a third...fouth...fifth time, you'll have to take this to conflict. Recall...the road to intimacy is THROUGH conflict so this isn't a bad idea. It isn't a fight. It's a discussion. You don't have to conflict avoid this, in fact, you point this out as a new relationship tool you've recently learned.
Your talking points:
1. Rape is a dangerous and unfair word to use here. Sure "no" means "no" but she did say "yes" at some point and you were never armed, never threatened her, never truly coerced her (she's been allowed to say "no" hundreds even thousands of times before without true repercussions)..
2. Honesty is important. Just as it is important for her to communicate honestly that she didn't want to have sex that night AND that after you two did have marital relations that she was actually emotionally hurt by the incident such that you could apologize and make amends in a timely fashion BEFORE she built up resentment about the incident and secretly harbored such a bitter thought, it is ALSO important for you to express YOUR feelings which would be:
a. That you are again...super sorry you ever made her feel that way and that you will do whatever you can to make amends for it. (owning it in the exact manner you hope she'd own her behavior...continue to lead or be the lighthouse by example).
b. Make suggestions for making sure this never happens again (again this is corollary to the way you hope someday she'll make amends for her affair and to make sure it doesn't happen again). For example, there is a consent app. It's not perfect but college kids (guys) are now using the app to insure, by video, that they have preauthorized documented [sober???] consent to contemporaneous sexual relations. I've never seen the app in person. Just read about it. It has flaws and it's certainly ridiculous to suggest in a marital situation but it might be a good suggestion to show the lengths you will go to to insure she never "feels" that way again. Then again (thinking to myself), you'd be a fool to have sex with her again WITHOUT express consent if she's got a "marital rape" allegation in her still pending divorce petition. She could be setting you up for a more aggressive allegation and then use it against you an unexpected child custody dispute.
[I know that sounds OUTRAGEOUS, but way wards are unpredictable and if you are the 1 in 50 guy that's being set up...at least you were forewarned]
b. That, at the same time, you can't help "FEELING" that this a convenient truth and merely a rationalization and justification for her affair with the doctor. That might make her mad, but you are just sharing your "feelings" in a calm manner. You are being honest and honesty has been a problem in your relationship. Her being mad and upset that you'd "feel" she made that up is OK. Conflict is OK. Listen and validate, but you wouldn't be being honest unless you shared your doubts.
c. Hopefully, in time, she'll come to forgive you just as you hope and believe, in time, you'll be able to forgive her. Perhaps it's good that we both have some issues coming into this potential recovery. Our kids deserve our best efforts to figure this out and clean up our respective sides of the street.
On to another point -
She asked you the other day/night if you knew what you wanted. You choose the "I'm conflicted and not sure myself" route that day which is fine in the distancing/pursuing game; HOWEVER, at some point it MAY be nice to skip to the next step in the LRT and be a little more confident. Consider also that it's attractive for a man to know what he wants and pursue it. Women also have a need/want to be cherished, desired and loved. This isn't a suggestion to pour your heart out there, buy her gifts and declare your never ending love; but, it does, perhaps, to some extent mean saying something like the following:
You: "I actually know exactly what I want"
her: "what???"
You: "I want to want you and I want you to want to want me"
her: "huh, what's that mean?"
you: "It's really a minimal emotional requirement"
her: "huh?"
you: "Let's see if I can explain this. I think you and I both logically can agree that our children deserve the best future we can provide them and that getting back together is in their best interest...wouldn't you agree?
her: "sure"
you: "That was a yes or no question, so you agree, we "should" try for them?
her: "yes" [get her saying 'yes' like any good salesperson would]
you: "But, I'm thinking that's probably not enough for either of us. I want....no I need, passion and love in my life too. I need more than just staying together "for the kids". I also know I'm not going to survive in this marriage if I don't get to ever see you looking at me the way you did on our wedding day. Do you agree, yes or no?
her: yes. (you are speaking her language - love and passion the wayward fantasy)
you: So, if we aren't "in love", this isn't going to work for either of us.
her: ok???
you: So our "problem" isn't that we both don't know what we want to do. Our problem is that we aren't in love with each other and if we both just simply decide "OK, today our kids DO, in fact, deserve our honest effort to fix this even though it will be uncomfortable and emotionally risky but we don't have to fix anything right now. We just both need to agree that we want to want to fall in love with each other and maybe make our way out of this mess". At that point, our problem simply and logically just becomes "how do we fall in love with each other again"?
you: [presume the close....that she wants to want to fall in love because who doesn't?} So how do you fall in love?
LISTEN....VALIDATE....LISTEN SOME MORE.
you: well, actually I started to compile a plan. You know, logically me and trying to engineer emotions but it occurred to me that YOU are my (and our families) emotional center. I couldn't conceive of a plan to fall in love with you without your input. Maybe that's why we are perfect for each other. A marriage can't be all emotional and it can't be all logical. I cherish the balance you've brought to my life and am prepared and willing to learn more about being and expressing myself emotionally. Will you help me?
her: help you what?
you: "learn to be more emotionally expressive in the way that you like AND give me your honest input with the recovery plan I've partially conceived in my mind."
her: "sure, I guess but I can only imagine what you've engineered in your mind. Love should just happen, it can't be planned"
you: "I so agree. But "love" doesn't happen in a vacuum. We'd have to spend time together alone and as a family. We have to date just like we did when we first met. My initial plan is pretty simple but we can discuss it later because any effort we make to recover is going to involve some conflict and arguing because avoiding conflict is one of the biggest reasons we are at this point today. Today isn't about figuring out any definite JOINT plan. Let's deal with that later...when we are a little more sure about wanting to want..... SOOOOOOO... do you want to fall in love again?
her: maybe
you: Yeah...you now KNOW what you want. Me too. I want to want to fall in love with you too. That's it. That's all we need to decide TODAY. That should be a valentines card really. Let's go have some fun and deal with this stuff later. How about Saturday...Saturday night at 8 o'clock good for you.
Don't be afraid to tell her what you want and what she should want. Ask her to agree. If she doesn't, no big deal. Just go back to distancing. She's again, not ready. If you get a chance to drop in that your "initial plan" that you worry about arguing about requires, at a minimum, if she ever expects you to "look at her as you did on your wedding day" and how you "fall in love with her" that she has to quit/change jobs. That there is zero way possible for her to expect you to actually be head or heels in passionate romantic love with her if she continues going off daily to work in any proximity to the OM. Simply ask her how she would honestly "feel" were the situations reversed. You aren't asking her to do anything she wouldn't require herself if the shoe was on the opposite foot here. If she wants you to want to fall in love with her.....that's a good way for her to show it.
Wow...that took awhile. Not around as much lately. I'm over 250 posts in and still under restriction. Not feeling very welcome here (I know, feelings aren't truth but still).
T14 M5 SD15,D8,S6,D3 "Not Happy" 12/11/14 EA discovered 2/11/15 MC started 2/17/15 MC "put on hold" 4/3/15 W IC started 4/5/15 PA admitted 5/7/15 WW moves out 5/8/15 WW gets her own place 7/15/15
The incident was never discussed and we continued to ML months after the incident, including twice after BD.
Pretty good indication that it's a rationalization and justification for her affair that will subside and disappear once she's in love with you again. She ML twice after Dday, but she's still conflicted and probably each time "just didn't feel it". This is a continuing effort to say "I'm not comfortable having sex with you right now and I don't know if I will ever be". That is a common sentiment for wayward wives because women, generally and genetically, romantically "love" one man at a time. Since she's not "in love" with you right now it feels kind of "bad" to have sex with you and wonders if it will ever be OK again.
Originally Posted By: defacto
I obviously take her allegation seriously and I understand that her feelings are paramount here. I can't stress enough that I feel horrible that I made her feel that way, even if not intended. However, a part of me can't help but think she is just using this isolated incident as some justification for her actions. Immediately after I exposed A, she also made other wild, untrue allegations that haven't been brought up since.
This is DEAD on. But you don't need to educate her on this.
Originally Posted By: Defacto
Just not sure how I should respond in the future if she continues to bring up this incident...
Validate. Listen and empathize.
Maybe....IF and WHEN this continues a third...fouth...fifth time, you'll have to take this to conflict. Recall...the road to intimacy is THROUGH conflict so this isn't a bad idea. It isn't a fight. It's a discussion. You don't have to conflict avoid this, in fact, you point this out as a new relationship tool you've recently learned.
Your talking points:
1. Rape is a dangerous and unfair word to use here. Sure "no" means "no" but she did say "yes" at some point and you were never armed, never threatened her, never truly coerced her (she's been allowed to say "no" hundreds even thousands of times before without true repercussions)..
2. Honesty is important. Just as it is important for her to communicate honestly that she didn't want to have sex that night AND that after you two did have marital relations that she was actually emotionally hurt by the incident such that you could apologize and make amends in a timely fashion BEFORE she built up resentment about the incident and secretly harbored such a bitter thought, it is ALSO important for you to express YOUR feelings which would be:
a. That you are again...super sorry you ever made her feel that way and that you will do whatever you can to make amends for it. (owning it in the exact manner you hope she'd own her behavior...continue to lead or be the lighthouse by example).
b. Make suggestions for making sure this never happens again (again this is corollary to the way you hope someday she'll make amends for her affair and to make sure it doesn't happen again). For example, there is a consent app. It's not perfect but college kids (guys) are now using the app to insure, by video, that they have preauthorized documented [sober???] consent to contemporaneous sexual relations. I've never seen the app in person. Just read about it. It has flaws and it's certainly ridiculous to suggest in a marital situation but it might be a good suggestion to show the lengths you will go to to insure she never "feels" that way again. Then again (thinking to myself), you'd be a fool to have sex with her again WITHOUT express consent if she's got a "marital rape" allegation in her still pending divorce petition. She could be setting you up for a more aggressive allegation and then use it against you an unexpected child custody dispute.
[I know that sounds OUTRAGEOUS, but way wards are unpredictable and if you are the 1 in 50 guy that's being set up...at least you were forewarned]
b. That, at the same time, you can't help "FEELING" that this a convenient truth and merely a rationalization and justification for her affair with the doctor. That might make her mad, but you are just sharing your "feelings" in a calm manner. You are being honest and honesty has been a problem in your relationship. Her being mad and upset that you'd "feel" she made that up is OK. Conflict is OK. Listen and validate, but you wouldn't be being honest unless you shared your doubts.
c. Hopefully, in time, she'll come to forgive you just as you hope and believe, in time, you'll be able to forgive her. Perhaps it's good that we both have some issues coming into this potential recovery. Our kids deserve our best efforts to figure this out and clean up our respective sides of the street.
On to another point -
She asked you the other day/night if you knew what you wanted. You choose the "I'm conflicted and not sure myself" route that day which is fine in the distancing/pursuing game; HOWEVER, at some point it MAY be nice to skip to the next step in the LRT and be a little more confident. Consider also that it's attractive for a man to know what he wants and pursue it. Women also have a need/want to be cherished, desired and loved. This isn't a suggestion to pour your heart out there, buy her gifts and declare your never ending love; but, it does, perhaps, to some extent mean saying something like the following:
You: "I actually know exactly what I want"
her: "what???"
You: "I want to want you and I want you to want to want me"
her: "huh, what's that mean?"
you: "It's really a minimal emotional requirement"
her: "huh?"
you: "Let's see if I can explain this. I think you and I both logically can agree that our children deserve the best future we can provide them and that getting back together is in their best interest...wouldn't you agree?
her: "sure"
you: "That was a yes or no question, so you agree, we "should" try for them?
her: "yes" [get her saying 'yes' like any good salesperson would]
you: "But, I'm thinking that's probably not enough for either of us. I want....no I need, passion and love in my life too. I need more than just staying together "for the kids". I also know I'm not going to survive in this marriage if I don't get to ever see you looking at me the way you did on our wedding day. Do you agree, yes or no?
her: yes. (you are speaking her language - love and passion the wayward fantasy)
you: So, if we aren't "in love", this isn't going to work for either of us.
her: ok???
you: So our "problem" isn't that we both don't know what we want to do. Our problem is that we aren't in love with each other and if we both just simply decide "OK, today our kids DO, in fact, deserve our honest effort to fix this even though it will be uncomfortable and emotionally risky but we don't have to fix anything right now. We just both need to agree that we want to want to fall in love with each other and maybe make our way out of this mess". At that point, our problem simply and logically just becomes "how do we fall in love with each other again"?
you: [presume the close....that she wants to want to fall in love because who doesn't?} So how do you fall in love?
LISTEN....VALIDATE....LISTEN SOME MORE.
you: well, actually I started to compile a plan. You know, logically me and trying to engineer emotions but it occurred to me that YOU are my (and our families) emotional center. I couldn't conceive of a plan to fall in love with you without your input. Maybe that's why we are perfect for each other. A marriage can't be all emotional and it can't be all logical. I cherish the balance you've brought to my life and am prepared and willing to learn more about being and expressing myself emotionally. Will you help me?
her: help you what?
you: "learn to be more emotionally expressive in the way that you like AND give me your honest input with the recovery plan I've partially conceived in my mind."
her: "sure, I guess but I can only imagine what you've engineered in your mind. Love should just happen, it can't be planned"
you: "I so agree. But "love" doesn't happen in a vacuum. We'd have to spend time together alone and as a family. We have to date just like we did when we first met. My initial plan is pretty simple but we can discuss it later because any effort we make to recover is going to involve some conflict and arguing because avoiding conflict is one of the biggest reasons we are at this point today. Today isn't about figuring out any definite JOINT plan. Let's deal with that later...when we are a little more sure about wanting to want..... SOOOOOOO... do you want to fall in love again?
her: maybe
you: Yeah...you now KNOW what you want. Me too. I want to want to fall in love with you too. That's it. That's all we need to decide TODAY. That should be a valentines card really. Let's go have some fun and deal with this stuff later. How about Saturday...Saturday night at 8 o'clock good for you.
Don't be afraid to tell her what you want and what she should want. Ask her to agree. If she doesn't, no big deal. Just go back to distancing. She's again, not ready. If you get a chance to drop in that your "initial plan" that you worry about arguing about requires, at a minimum, if she ever expects you to "look at her as you did on your wedding day" and how you "fall in love with her" that she has to quit/change jobs. That there is zero way possible for her to expect you to actually be head or heels in passionate romantic love with her if she continues going off daily to work in any proximity to the OM. Simply ask her how she would honestly "feel" were the situations reversed. You aren't asking her to do anything she wouldn't require herself if the shoe was on the opposite foot here. If she wants you to want to fall in love with her.....that's a good way for her to show it.
Wow...that took awhile. Not around as much lately. I'm over 250 posts in and still under restriction. Not feeling very welcome here (I know, feelings aren't truth but still).
Wow GB. The effort you put in is tremendous. There is so much to take away and digest from your post. Thanks for your perspective. And I agree that at times I need to take the lead when STBX asks a question like that. However, I also feel like I need to do some soul searching to determine what it is I really want also so that I can answer her with conviction and purpose.
Also, I enjoy having you around GB, especially because you are not afraid to speak your mind. I appreciate your viewpoint.
Originally Posted By: HurtJef
Just checking on my pal!!!! Any updates Defacto?
Jeff, Thanks for checking up on me! Nothing too divergent to report. I'm trying to get away from just posting the monotonous interactions with STBX. We generally have positive, kid centered interactions daily. Trying hard to limit my expectations and focusing on my day to day life. Just trying to stay busy with enjoyable and meaningful activities.
STBX did kiss me on the cheek tonight when she dropped off the kids. It's been months since she did that. However, this was a few minutes after I leaned in to her car and saw that OM was saved to her favorites on her iPhone. So yeah, just need to keep on my path. Slow and steady...
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Glad you are still staying steady. You have come such a long way bud.
Just seeing him on her phone could have sent you into a tailspin and you didn't let it. Great Job!!
T14 M5 SD15,D8,S6,D3 "Not Happy" 12/11/14 EA discovered 2/11/15 MC started 2/17/15 MC "put on hold" 4/3/15 W IC started 4/5/15 PA admitted 5/7/15 WW moves out 5/8/15 WW gets her own place 7/15/15
STBX called a couple of times late last night but I didn't answer. Then this morning she called as I was driving to work. We talked about some nuances with next month's schedule and the upcoming birthday party planning for the kids.
Then she paused and said that she just didn't know. I asked her about this and she said that I seem so happy and it seems like I'm done. I jokingly respond and let her continue. She talked more about how she didn't expect this to happen. I just listen and validate.
Then, I say that I had thought about her question the other day, about what I wanted. I told her that I do know what I want. I told her that I want to be happy and I want to feel in love with someone again like the way I felt for her when I looked into her eyes on our wedding day. She sighed like she was dreaming and remembering that moment fondly. She replied by saying that she knew I would find that again and the she sees all the girls who like my pictures on Instagram. I playfully laugh in response to this.
I then asked her about what she thought was best for the kids. She talked about the kids seeing both parents happy and independent, etc. I tried to lead the conversation a bit like GB's script but it didn't seem to be flowing the same way. I just validated and eventually ended the call. I pleasantly wished her a good day.
Then STBX called back a few minutes later and said she had a question for me. She asked me if I thought I could ever love her again. I paused for about ten seconds and said "yeah, I think so." I told her it would certainly take some time. I joked that if we ever got to that point, it would almost feel like I was dating someone for the first time. She chuckled. She said that it was something to think about it and we said our goodbyes.
It felt good to be confident and clearly express what I want to STBX. Who knows where this leads. But, I know what I want. I deserve to be happy and I want to be in love again with someone who respects me, even if that's not STBX.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
