Validating is different Dwh, validating would be saying "yes I can see you have an issue with where you live, I know you are resourceful so will work it out, let me know your new address"
It isn't saying " please come live here" nor is it saying "serves you right"
Validating is saying "I hear there are difficulties with OM and that's hard for you, I have decided that's your business to resolve which I know you will"
It isn't saying " come home and I will always be here for you" nor "are you learning anything?"
Validating is saying " yes, your life is really hard, unless it affects the kids then it's best you work through in your usual methodical way please it keep me informed if you want to meet the kids elsewhere"
It isn't saying "poor WW what can I do to help?" Or "OM is a scumbag shall I get the boys to work him over?"
You most likely know this. And I wanted to be clear in my own thoughts. V
Last edited by Vanilla; 07/27/1502:52 PM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Thank You for the clarification V. The way you worded it is much better than what I was doing. I don't think I did a terrible job, and I certainly didn't lash out at WW or OM, but I made myself easily available and had her believing we were in it together and I would help her. It gave her a temporary security blanket. Next time I need to be compassionate but be clear that it's her mess to figure out w/o any assistance from me. As I said before, I struggle knowing where to draw the line since one of her big complaints is that she felt I really didn't care about her and took her for granted. But I suppose listening and validating does tell her I care, but also makes her own the choices she has made.
Last edited by dwh15; 07/27/1503:20 PM.
Me 47 W 42 T 24 yrs M 18 yrs W living with OM BD1: 3/7/2015 (A with OM#1) BD2: 4/11/2015 (A with OM#2, W moves out) WW filed for D, papers received 9/18/2015. Meeting to determine child custody 9/29/2015.
WW just sends a TM and plans to take the boys bowling tonight but wants me to feed them dinner before they come over. She used to always provide meals on the nights she had them, but since I cut off the financial help, she pulls this every few days. Then she sent a 2nd TM saying "unless you want to send them with money to eat out tonight". This is quite inconvenient for me, as I do volunteering Monday nights and leave the house by 5:30pm, and she knows it. And I'm not giving them money to eat out every time she has them. I sent a single reply saying I would make sure the kids ate something before I left, and then would make dinner when I returned, around 8pm. If they were still hungry, they could come home and have dinner with me. Now, that may cut her time with them short, but if that's how she wants to be about the meals, then it's her loss. I'm sort of aggravated about the whole thing.
Me 47 W 42 T 24 yrs M 18 yrs W living with OM BD1: 3/7/2015 (A with OM#1) BD2: 4/11/2015 (A with OM#2, W moves out) WW filed for D, papers received 9/18/2015. Meeting to determine child custody 9/29/2015.
As I said before, I struggle knowing where to draw the line since one of her big complaints is that she felt I really didn't care about her and took her for granted.
Just so you'll know, in almost every WW story I've read, the W says what yours has said. She will say anything to make herself sound justified. She will say most anything to guilt you.
The WW's two favorite cards to play are the guilt and control.
You can learn from past mistakes. You can ponder on how you could have made her feel more loved. You can change yourself into a better man, and continue learning how you can be a better H. You can take note of her complaints (that she made before she turned wayward), but you cannot try to prove her wrong by showing her what a perfect H you can be while she's in an A. Mainly b/c it puts you into pursuit mode, which is the last thing you need to do with a WW. She may tell you to jump through hoops of fire.....but that doesn't mean it's what you should do!
We often get acquainted with a new poster by asking about the complaints and getting a feel of the stitch. IMO, whatever complaints your W may have voiced after she made the choice to include a third person in the M, should not be addressed right now. I say this b/c it is not the immediate problem. When she stops all contact with OM, is remorseful and willing to do whatever it takes to save the M, then you can show her what an improved H you are by implementing all those things you should have been doing up to the point she turned wayward. Does this sense to you? I'm not suggesting you become a terrible person or anything. Stay balanced here.
I have observed over the years that a LBH will wake up and want to go into overdrive, and is so eager to prove himself worthy of his W. But here's the catch: she's past that point now. Oh, she'll use complaints as her platform for leaving or even getting into the A......but in her heart she's done. She's not the least bit interested in you showing her how wonderful you can be now. The more you would try to show her how you don't take her for granted....the more turned off it would make her feel. The whole ballgame has changed, which means your playbook needs to change. You cannot play by her rules.
This does not have to mean there's no chance in reconciliation. I'm just telling you how it is at the moment. There is hope here. She may feel done, but that doesn't mean it's fact.
Instead of thinking of what you should be doing to stop her from going to OM, think of what you won't tolerate in your life. In general what is it you won't tolerate from other people. What about in your M? What goes against everything you believe is right, moral, valuable, religious, or the very core of what you are? Then, think about the things you absolutely cannot live without. (And don't say your W, b/c life can continue without her.) When you know these things, then you'll know your personal boundaries. That is your focus point. Not her, not the A or even the MR (at the moment), but rather your self respect and dignity as a man. The very things you stand for, and/or fight against being in your home/family/life.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Sandy, I sort of get your point, but now I think I'm confused about where to go from here. Are you saying that the usual DB techniques don't apply in this situation? I've been working on hard on GAL and identifying my part in the breakdown of the M, and then taking steps to correct my own issues. I still think that those are critical for me and my boys regardless.
But in terms of best way to interact with WW, what are you suggesting? In an effort to answer your questions, let me say the following are things that I will not tolerate from other people: 1) Dishonesty 2) Disrespect 3) Selfishness 4) Actions taken to hurt me or my children
I would say the same things apply to my M. Funny, as I look at that list, WW has done every one of those.
As far as things I cannot live without: 1) My children and their well-being 2) My integrity 3) Self respect
So given all of that, what's the best way to proceed? Continue with min contact about the kids, but shut WW down on any other topics? I had already committed to NOT helping her financially any more w/o a court order. It sounds like I basically need to cut her out of my life, outside of basic min interaction required for dealing with issues regarding the children? If I'm reading you wrong, please correct me. I'm really struggling knowing how to proceed. Are there any success stories here on the site where someone came out of a similar sitch and was able to restore the M? I would love to read them and maybe get some ideas.
Me 47 W 42 T 24 yrs M 18 yrs W living with OM BD1: 3/7/2015 (A with OM#1) BD2: 4/11/2015 (A with OM#2, W moves out) WW filed for D, papers received 9/18/2015. Meeting to determine child custody 9/29/2015.
In essence split the period into before p1 and after the A p2 started (the split is not before or after BD, that would be for a WAW, a wife who is not wayward and who isn't having an A, an A isn't the reason for a split its about unhappiness, although a WAW may later date)
If W in p1 had a complaint which is valid, for example you ignored her or didn't take her out to dinner from your anniversary, communication was poor, or you didn't brush your teeth.....
Address it yourself, for example someone who drinks too much gives that up, someone who puts work before family changes it. They do that for themselves by using DB, 180s etc.
If WW in p2 has a complaint the 100% rule applies, it is likely not valid. So validate and let WW meet the consequences of her actions. You are validating feelings not behaviours. So if WW for example brings OM to your home that is unreasonable if it breaches your boundaries. The list you describe are boundary breaches. More on boundaries later. Close WW down on OM as fast as you can. If after this all you hear is spew, and ranting and petulance then you can withdraw.
It's about keep WW like a friendly neighbour, the path home is smooth. Some describe the lighthouse strategy being a strong beacon for the wayward but holding your ground.
Some actions by another are so damaging there is little you can do, they are physical or emotionally abusive. So in essence Dwh you learn what your core boundaries are and whether another person has stepped over them. Boundaries are the areas that are really important to you which another breaches.
Al Turtle describes us as a fort with walls, the invading army may send arrows or troups over the walls using behaviours that are inappropriate. (Al is a psychologist for teenagers and I found his explanations very useful, it's google able he has an Internet presence) The behaviours of others which are so damaging require enormous strength to repel. Other actions are less damaging and cause little damage, you wouldn't get out the cannons for a small infringements but you need an army for large ones.
For success stories try Mozzas thread he keeps lists there and they are very encouraging. Remember DB is for you.
It is very early in your sitch to be despondent. The core here is if something doesn't work change it. You will only know after a couple of months with some strategies.
I like your response on the kids and the food issue, leaves WW responsible but the kids don't go hungry. I really like it.
V
Last edited by Vanilla; 07/27/1508:02 PM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Are you saying that the usual DB techniques don't apply in this situation? I've been working on hard on GAL and identifying my part in the breakdown of the M, and then taking steps to correct my own issues. I still think that those are critical for me and my boys regardless.
That depends on what you refer to as the "usual DB techniques". MWD tells us to do what works. I am simply trying to inform you of what does and does not work in a stitch with a WW.
By all means, please GAL......big time! And yes, correcting any personal issues you may have, b/c that is part of self improvement. However, if you see correcting your issues as meaning any pursuing type of "work", then it will get you off track b/c it isn't the way to reconcile with a wayward.
Quote:
But in terms of best way to interact with WW, what are you suggesting? In an effort to answer your questions, let me say the following are things that I will not tolerate from other people: 1) Dishonesty 2) Disrespect 3) Selfishness 4) Actions taken to hurt me or my children
I am suggesting you think about setting boundaries. And when you are thinking on these lines, what would be the consequences for anyone who did not honor these things you will not tolerate?
Quote:
I would say the same things apply to my M. Funny, as I look at that list, WW has done every one of those.
As far as things I cannot live without: 1) My children and their well-being 2) My integrity 3) Self respect
These are right along the lines I had hoped you would say.
My intent is not to confuse you. I just can't get it all said in one post. So many men take a doormat approach, and you cannot do it with a WW. She has to see you standing tall and enforcing boundaries. And btw, when I say enforcing, I mean that you don't just talk but actually know what will be the consequences of breaking one of your boundaries. Remember, the only adult's actions you can control....are your own.
Think of yourself as proactive, and not of being in a helpless situation (not that you have, just saying). Proactive, however, does not mean you pursue a wayward wife. It does mean you take care of business, your children, yourself, your property & finances and keeping your priorities in order. It means to focus on you getting a life without her involvement. It means to not center your life around her, protect her or provide for her (in terms you normally think of a husband-wife relationship). She has chosen to remove herself from that umbrella that comes within a faithful/honest MR.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Well, I slept pretty well, and not feeling nearly as down this morning as I was yesterday. Been thinking about some of WW's complaints and realized that one of her big ones was she felt ignored and not loved. And I can see how she might have felt that way, even though it was never my intention. Given that, is going dark or dim the best way to handle my sitch? She's still with OM, so maybe that is the way to handle it, but I am worried that maybe it comes across as more of the same. Although I certainly don't want to enable her cake eating, as that's what I did for the first few weeks, trying to be her BFF, and I didn't feel it was helping me at all. She had everything she needed, with no motivation at all to want to patch things up with me romantically. Has anyone had a similar sitch and successfully navigated out of the storm?
dwh
Just read up on your sitch a bit .. and looks like a few of the bulbs that you need to go on are starting to flicker. To answer your question .... I had a W totally in love with OM, like you was a time she wanted to share with me their R in order for me to shed light on things for her ... ya know because I knew her so well .... not that I was her H.
I have navigated through that, I am not there yet but I can say the A is and has been over, she has showered me with ILY's all that. Is our M rock solid and all good ...no .. not yet ... its going to take alot of work.
Here is what I see in your sitch, V and Sandi are amazing LISTEN to them, go back and re-read what they are trying to tell you. You need a plan ... pulling the $$ was a good move.
#1 you need your respect back, not only from your WW ... but yourself. You have to look at that fella in the mirror and absolutely love him. I named this guy Cali 2.0 ... he was who rose out from the ashes of all this crap.
#2 As you are ... be the best father you can be ... regardless.
#3 As far as the going dark/dim issue with your sitch. I too got the "you neglected me card" ... all you can do is own your past mistakes with "I would do alot of things differently" card ... and leave it at that ... but you do not reward her wayward behaivior by sittin at the table begging for scraps ... GAL and do YOUR thing .. she fired you remember? Do not cake feed, let her hit rock bottom and come to grips with what a mistake she made, you are the prize ... a man only a fool would leave.
#4 as Sandi said ... Until there is remorse and the "I will do whatever it takes to fix this M" ... stay your course. Just like the front line in BraveHeart with the Calvary bearing down on them .. HOLD.
My sitch is going on about 2 years now .. but to be honest I am thankful ... because NOW I have a voice and a chance at a M where we BOTH can be happy in. For some time it was all about getting 'her' back .. then I realized .. the 'her' she was .. I did not want. Who would want a woman who had her sights on bolting out and leaving her family? So not only did I let her go .. I got to a point I opened the door for her and let her run .... when she tired out, she came back on MY terms ... not out of punishment .. but out of things I needed in the M all along.
One thing in all this .. Stasky said it and I have yet not seen it to be true .. the WW will continue to be waywardy until she feels she is losing the LBH ... so as long as you are on the porch waiting for her to come home she never will ... when you finally decide to live your life and do your thing ... actually DO IT rather than fake it ... when her actions no longer affect you and your life ... then you might see a change like I did.
She has to respect you as a man before anything will change.
Caliguy, amazing post. Thank you so much for taking the time. I really love hearing from other LBH who have been there, especially ones who have reconciled, or are in the process, such as yourself. Yes, I agree that V and Sandi are incredible and I appreciate their input more than I can express. I had actually read several posts from both before even creating an ID and putting my own story out there. When they started replying in my thread, it was almost like having a couple of rock stars take the time to say Hello.
I'm going to go back and re-read as you suggested, but I think I get the gist of the recent advice. Set my boundaries, no more Mr. Nice Guy to WW, respect myself, GAL, and be the best father, brother, son, friend I can be. And then settle in for the long road ahead. I'm only around 4 months out, although it feels like years at times, and realize I'm still very early in the process. I also realize that there are no guarantees, but I certainly want to give myself and my family the best chance possible, and I believe that will happen by following the fantastic advice in the DB books and this forum.
Thanks so much everyone who has taken the time to reply. I will continue to provide updates and seek advice. You people are incredible.
Last edited by dwh15; 07/28/1512:45 AM.
Me 47 W 42 T 24 yrs M 18 yrs W living with OM BD1: 3/7/2015 (A with OM#1) BD2: 4/11/2015 (A with OM#2, W moves out) WW filed for D, papers received 9/18/2015. Meeting to determine child custody 9/29/2015.
Went shopping for a new suit today for the big interview tomorrow. I had other suits but as part of the big DDay diet, I've lost around 50 pounds in 3 months so nothing fits well anymore. It's one of the things that WW would have loved, and I found myself wishing she was with me. But I took S18 and we actually had a pretty good time. And got to talk with a really cute sales girl. Heading out to run a couple of miles, then back home to make dinner for the kids. Haven't heard a word from WW all day, which I take as a generally good thing these days, although I still miss her often. But at least it means no drama.
Me 47 W 42 T 24 yrs M 18 yrs W living with OM BD1: 3/7/2015 (A with OM#1) BD2: 4/11/2015 (A with OM#2, W moves out) WW filed for D, papers received 9/18/2015. Meeting to determine child custody 9/29/2015.
