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#2589101 07/17/15 06:12 PM
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Greetings. No offense but I wish I wasn't here.

I’m 36, I have two girls 3 and almost 6. My wife is 34.

My wife left in early July after a month of detaching after I yelled at her one evening on June, 13).

She left last summer in June (2014) as well, and I blubbered her back into coming home after 3 weeks. There were no boundaries made, or rules set.

I agreed at that time to go to counseling which i have done for a year, and we did marriage counseling at the university where she works. At the conclusion she said she thought the relationship was a lot better.

Over the year I have improved tremendously, but still had issues with validating her feelings and bouts of impulsive anger. The difference between the me then and the me now is pretty drastic I think, but it obviously wasn't enough for her to stay.

After i yelled at her (about 5 seconds and including profanity) because i was annoyed at my brother and I didn’t feel she was ‘on my side’ she was upset and tried to talk to me twice. I was still irritated (not mad at her) and didn’t see her.

I fell asleep putting my daughter to bed and thus it wasn’t resolved that night. Basically the way I acted a year and a half ago came back. No apology, going to bed mad, etc.

The next afternoon when I asked to her to talk she said she didn’t want to. Then the sound in her voice made me know her leaving was coming.

Over the next weeks there was a lot of ‘if you love me you need to let me go.” and she also said she “was not in love with me anymore.” That “We will always be together because of the girls” and she hopes we will still be great friends.”

Basically all the stuff I’ve now read is textbook for this kind of thing.

We’ve been married 9 years and together 18 years. Over the past year I’ve fallen more in love with her than it seems like ever before, but in that time she says every time she felt love coming back it was destroyed by a disagreement or argument. Then when I yelled at her she felt nothing and decided that she doesn’t want to be married to me anymore. She thinks about being alone and it’s a huge relief. She “doesn’t believe in the idea of marriage anymore” and thinks that the better example to our girls will be to live through this breakup and be normal rather than work out the marriage and be together.

I spent the first week or two reading what I could and sending links on the effect that divorce has on children, but she counters with an equal number of studies showing that if the parents treat each other well there’s no damage done.

My older daughter started crying when my wife told her we were separating. My wife has said divorce once or twice, but said “separating” to my daughter. I haven’t emailed her anything or argued since 7/8. I encouraged her to move back to her parents to give her space (1 mile away). Within three days she was no longer wearing her wedding band.

She “wants to let the world in” and feels that a third of her life is over and she hasn’t done anything she wanted to. She cannot see herself happy being married to me and “doesn’t think she’ll be in any relationship again.” She’s “letting me go to be happier with someone else” because “our relationship has never been healthy.” I’ve also been controlling and emotionally abusive according to her and she “can’t handle the ups and the downs anymore.”

I’m looking nicer and acting very positive around her, optimistic and being the person I want to be (which I told her I would do and that initially made her think I wasn’t taking her seriously). I’m dressing well when I see her and not mentioning the relationship. She already wants to split the girls time up and when i dropped them off after a day with me she wouldn't make eye contact with me for a minute or so. She was ‘getting the girls attention’ or so it seemed. I was super positive as she left this week to go camping with her family and the girls and I have been trying to stay positive. I’m praying more than i ever have, and hanging onto my hope.

I have been a stay at home dad (in school from 2009 to 2013) and raised my girls. I was bitter about this a lot, but had toned it down in the past year. Still, it got the better of me several times and it was always mixed with guilt that she couldn't be home with them like the original plan was. I love being home with them, but when I got down I would just dump complaints on her. Over the last month she was also focusing a lot on work and so we had little quality time.

So She has been gone since July 2. She has bought new perfume and seems perfectly happy, though she has seemed upset a few times that I’ve seen her. According to her it will be a long time of feeling upset but it will eventually be okay and I’ll be happier. “We’ll both be happier.”

Our entire relationship has been marked by my consistent depression and anger issues. Also what I now see were very nascent emotional affairs on my end.(to me they were more jokey and obviously ridiculous - of course now i look back and cringe) I’ve never hit her or even intimated that I would. But she says she felt threatened. We agree on education for the girls, both have a Christian upbringing (though hers much more liberal) and have always had great physical chemistry. She is the love of my life and I threw all of her goodwill away over the years. And now that I want it back and I want her to see me working, all she can remember is the past. She has rewritten our relationship to be mostly all bad. Even our wedding she says she has no happy memories of.

We met when she was 16 and I was 18 and she feels like she never got to experience life on her own, to be independent or to make her own decisions. She says she doesn't feel like our house is even hers because even though she's picked out every wall color and lots of furniture she says that i had to ‘approve’ them first and so she really had no say.

I oscillate now between praying (which makes me cry), having hope that she’ll come back, feeling that she’s right, and then wanting her back desperately but more desperately wanting her to finally be happy. (She’s seemed consistently upset over the past year and has done everything I used to do in arguments - bring up the past incessantly and telling me things that are very hurtful that she says she felt at the time).

I love her more now than ever, and I told her almost every morning this past year how amazing she looked. I’ve never criticized her appearance, loved her body and told her how much i loved her body every time she brought up something she didn’t like about herself. I tried to give her hugs almost every morning, to be more affectionate so my daughters would see, and tried to resolve conflicts as much as I was able. I tried to cheer her up when she had tough times at work and I had dinner done most every night when she got home. I didn’t make too many date nights because I didn’t want to rob her of more time with our girls.

I still yelled though and that was the straw that broke the camel’s back. She said that the last year was just too little too late and that she doesn’t believe that I want to get back together for our daughter’s sake. She says it just sounds like me wanting her to come back for myself.

She went from being somewhat accommodating and positive sounding when she moved out, to increasingly businesslike and (for lack of a better word) cold around me. It seems to have increased proportionally inversely to how positive I was acting.

I need to get a job now and even though I have a teaching credential finding a teaching job will likely be very difficult. I want to keep our house for consistency for my girls, but I don’t know how likely that will be.

I’m very upset now, as a job prospect seems like it won’t pan out and I need to make a decent amount to live where we do. To afford the mortgage and all that.

I am praying to accept this change and to accept that I have no control over it. But it is devastating and the fact that I feel wholly responsible for it makes it all the worse. She even gave me that year and I still couldn't turn it around.

I’ve read the 34 rules and tons of other pages about detachment and boundaries, so I don’t need those links, though I appreciate anything that you think might help me in my situation.

If anyone has any insight into my predicament I’d appreciate anything. Links, stories, or anything at all.

Thanks for listening.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2589104 07/17/15 06:24 PM
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Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.


Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

Last edited by Cadet; 07/18/15 04:21 AM. Reason: Link

Me-70, D37,S36
Cadet #2589118 07/17/15 07:15 PM
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Such similarities in our stories, hang in there, this is about being patient, you are in good company, keep changing to be the best dad you can be for now, give her the space she needs.


M35 W33 S14 D12
M14
ILYBNILWY 07/14
BD 7/14
S 5/15

"For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future"
ILYNOT #2589121 07/17/15 07:26 PM
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714Dad, so sorry that you're here, but you've come to the right place.

What Cadet posted is gold....tons of great resources to get you oriented.

Hopefully some of the other vets (I'm not one of them) will be along shortly.

Some of the things your W says sound like they could have been said by mine...I was amazed to learn how similar the scripts of walk-away spouses (WAS) can be.

This is never a pleasant thought, but have you definitively ruled out an affair, either physical (PA) or emotional (EA)? My situation started when my wife had an EA with someone she knows through work.

My advice, keep posting on here. The friends I've made and just the act of journaling has made a tremendous difference in my state of mind.

Last edited by NH115; 07/17/15 07:27 PM.

Ex Rzrback
Me 43 Her 44
D11, D15
T21, M19
BD 9/9/2014
Piecing

Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood

NH115 #2590040 07/21/15 12:05 AM
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714Dad Offline OP
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I find an emotional affair very unlikely. She has always put our girls first and I don't think she'd risk something like that.

In her case I think it's just work. She wants to do something 'important' and she's in an industry where that can happen. She also probably wants to travel and doesn't want to be tied down to me anymore.

We met with a divorce mediator today. It was a free consultation but by the end she had already paid half the filing fee and she will file the papers next monday morning.

It has been barely three weeks since she moved out and to her parent's house.

I feel like I have time to do nothing.

When we left we stopped outside and I asked her to close her eyes, which she wouldn't do. So I just asked her to imagine a relationship where she felt validated, and cherished, etc.

I told her not to respond to me but just to please slow this down and think.

I handed her something I wrote as well, which was probably a bad idea, but at this point it feels like there's nothing to lose. Everyhting else with me has been LRT (extremely difficult with children involved) and acting positive and looking really good whenever we see each other for pickups and drop offs.

Here's what I wrote and handed her (and yes I know it was probably a bad idea):



M,

Stop for a moment.

Close your eyes.

Imagine a relationship in which you are happy.

Imagine a marriage where you feel validated.

Imagine a place where you are cherished.

Imagine a place where we are together in happiness.

Imagine a marriage in which we are both ourselves.


Imagine that place and feel it at your fingertips.


I am not asking you to stop.

I am not asking you to not file papers.

I am simply asking you to pause, to think.

I am asking as your husband and as the father of your children.


It is unfortunate that you only remember bad from something I remember as so fundamentally good.

We were young, but now we are older.

We were immature but that doesn't matter anymore.

We are who we are now and we can both choose to be happy, to be better.

We can choose to heal.


Imagine a Halloween where we take the girls trick or treating as we have before.

Imagine a Thanksgiving at our house in which we are surrounded by love and family and all the good food you make.

Imagine a Christmas of joy and love and Christmas lights. Calm and quiet.

Of Bing Crosby. Of A White Christmas.
Of the girls waking us up so that they can open presents.

Of crisp mornings where you can run early in the morning, gravel crunching under your feet.


Can you feel how close these things are?


You deserve to be happy.

You deserve to feel loved.

You must be yourself.

And you can be yourself here.

With me.


Imagine Paris.

Imagine teaching D and D the Metro.

Imagine Crepes avec Nutella.



I am not promising anything.

I am asking only for you to believe that we can heal.

That God will help us.


That you can be happy.


I cannot keep you here.

I do not want to keep you here if you are unhappy.

But I know you can be happy here.

I know, I believe, we can heal ourselves.

And have what we always should have had. (and we did have a lot of the time).

Love, kindness, laughter.

And if you file,

The girls will be alright because we love them.

I will be alright because I have hope.

I will work.

You will be okay and successful because you are strong.

But think and imagine,

I will work regardless, because I need to.

And,

We will go to Paris sooner with that income.

We will go to San Francisco within the year.

And,

We will sit together and watch D and D grow up.

We will each get to see them every night.

We will work together to make the future together.


Imagine a marriage in which you are cherished.

And imagine that the man who has always told your daughters that you are the smartest and most beautiful woman in the world is standing next to you.

Making you coffee, taking your temperature, holding you as D goes off to college.

This distance you asked for was not easy, but compare it to last year and remember. It is proof of my love for you. Because I cannot claim to love something unconditionally and then place conditions on it being near, or staying. Your happiness is all I have wanted to see for so long.

And if you truly cannot be happy with me, ever, I will accept that.

But please slow down and think. Consider trust, forgiveness, and healing.

It will be difficult, take time, hurt, and seem backwards sometimes.

But we can see it through.

I am here.


Last edited by Cadet; 07/21/15 08:56 AM. Reason: remove name

M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2590154 07/21/15 08:55 AM
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Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.


Me-70, D37,S36
Cadet #2590166 07/21/15 12:06 PM
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I just want to reiterate the idea of at least an EA. My wife was the last person on earth I thought would do it. Read Sandi thread, she was the same way. If you do find out she is, dont explode, dont say anything to her. Think on it, come to this board, have a plan.

Much of your story is similar to mine. I feel for you. Start DBing right now. The longer you wait and the more mistakes you make, the longer the whole process will take.

Good luck on your journery


Me: 30's W: 30's M: 12yrs
EA: Started 3/2015
MC Started: 4/2015
She moved out and served 6/2015
PA: Confirmed 10/5/2015
2 young kids

"If you do not stand for something you will fall for anything."
WhyUs #2590175 07/21/15 01:33 PM
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714Dad Offline OP
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Regarding an EA or even PA, anything is possible. Again though, her comments like, "I don't know if I'll ever be in a relationship again" etc. and other behavior don't seem to add up to an EA/PA.

My IC I went to for a year (and just recently changed) suggested a A of some kind to me due to the rapidity and severity with which she left and said 'divorce.' But the more I read the more it seems like she began 'leaving' several years ago and that was just the time for her to go.

Like many it's so strange to hear that these 18 years have been emotionally unhealthy, that the woman you love so much isn't in love with you, or that she's 'freeing you from this unhealthy relationship.'

If she is in an EA/PA there's nothing I can do. I can only change or control myself. So while it would devastate me even more, it's not where I'm going to obsess right now.

I just can't believe how fast it's going.

And shes seems to be getting irritated that she won't be able to get out and start her new life as fast as she thought she would because I have to find a job and all of this other stuff has to be settled.

When she first said divorce she said she'd just sign the deed of the house over to me because there really is no savings to speak of. But now she's saying I'll need to buy her out of her half of the house. So I am a bit panicked about that.

Again, having been the stay at home dad for my girls means I don't have a salary history, or anything to start up immediately.

I can understand why this is happening, I understand how I made it happen over years and years of being emotionally unavailable, or angry, or unapproachable, but I still can't believe I'm here. Especially after a year of change, and of trying to change, and of getting better. A total committment to therapy and to implementing things when I could remember to do them. TO still have this happen.

I have DB and DR books on order and they should get here soon. I am finishing ...

I have started but can barely read ... mostly because I don't want to. It's so devastating to read.

My wife wants me to read ... which I still have to order. She started reading that in mid June after my outburst.

It's so strange to feel how cold my in-laws house is to me now. Whereas it used to be like a second home.

Thank you all and I will try to post more. I just have the girls to watch during the day and jobs to apply for at night.

and now I have the divorce packet to begin filling out.

Last edited by Cristy; 07/21/15 07:56 PM.

M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
WhyUs #2590181 07/21/15 01:45 PM
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Bad idea on the note, but then again you knew that. Why do you suppose you did that, KNOWING that it was pursuit? Are you still operating on your emotions?

Not picking on you, I just see a lot of myself in you, 714. I too am a romantic, and a wordsmith, and I always felt that if I could say (or write) JUST the right things, my wayward wife would come back to me.

It only pushed her further away.

What she responded to instead was STRENGTH. Not being a jerk or a d*ck, but my strong resolve in fighting for our marriage, and drawing firm boundaries with her. The whole "supplication" thing is NOT attractive to her, I can assure you (in fact, it's probably a big turn-off). If you doubt this, ask the women on here (Sandi, Train, others).

I too would caution you to keep your eyes wide open for a possible affair. She is displaying several of the warning signs, and it's rare for a woman to leave the security of her marriage without either an OM already on the hook, or at least already be in pursuit of someone specific. My wife was THE last woman in the world you would have EVER thought would do what she did, but she did. And this forum is littered with similar stories.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Starsky309 #2590182 07/21/15 01:54 PM
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I'm just as lost in the dark about all this as you are but my wife has said almost the exact same thigns yours has said. Here is my voice letting you know you are not alone in this.

714Dad #2590210 07/21/15 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: 714Dad


and now I have the divorce packet to begin filling out.


714, do you have your own family law attorney, or just that mediator you two met with?

You really need to better understand your rights here, IMHO. What is the definition of a "long-term marriage" in your state, as it relates to spousal support? If you've been the stay-at-home-father, you may be entitled to spousal support (alimony) from your wife.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
714Dad #2590285 07/21/15 08:01 PM
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Hello 714Dad,

I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.

There is still much that can be done to get your marriage moving in a more positive direction. I'm glad you have DB and DR on order. The first chapters of each of those books are here on the website so you can go ahead and get started before they arrive.

It would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. Please call me to discuss our program at 303-444-7004.


Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004


A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.

Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
dmbfan #2590376 07/21/15 11:47 PM
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Starsky, I did it because in a little over one month she's gone from talking about vacations to literally filing for divorce. It's so rapid so as to leave me grasping.

As I said my head is still essentially spinning. Maybe EA,PA, but what can I really do about it other than add to the worry I already have?

I just got DB today. So I'll start that tonight.

Otherwise as said I'm optimistic, dressing well, being that person that I've wanted to be for so long. It's for me and my girls of course, but a great deal of it is for her as well. I understand logically she's gone, but I so want an opportunity to make up for all the years of crap. To finally embrace the ways I should have been and see her smile and laugh and be happy again.

But deep inside I'm still a shambles.

And I want my family intact. I don't want to be separate parents. She was my best friend for 18 years.

I know it's an individual thing but what is the average time to get to the point of acceptance? To get to a place where almost every thought isn't of her or some memory of a trip or some future idea you'd planned for?

Logic makes sense, all the threads of distance and all that, but emotion is still boiling over for me. When I took the D6 and D3 to see "Inside Out" the tears were streaming down my face for all of the family scenes.

I just want to stop feeling this. The only word is devastating.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2590388 07/22/15 12:47 AM
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714,

The reason you want to know if your W is in an A is because you have to "AB" (Affair Bust) before you DB (Divorce Bust). There's one chapter in DR devoted to infidelity whereas an entire book could be (and several have been) written about infidelity alone.

I won't go into too much detail since an A hasn't been confirmed in your case, but if your W is having her emotional needs met by another man, there's not a *thing* you can do that will change her mind right now. (But there ARE things you can do to get her attention.) And, yes, as Starsky said, supplication is the WORST thing you can do if you want to have any hope of this thing turning around. Supplication is very unattractive to us girls. We like confidence, conviction, decisiveness.

If a M is ending because two people have turned into glorified roommates - which I'd say is the exception and not the rule - then a few simple, consistent changes alone may make a big difference. Look nice and smell great? Sure! Cook dinner? Absolutely! Do more chores? How sweet! But if another man is involved and you're doing those things, any "nice guy" stuff makes you look, frankly, pathetic to your W. Especially if she's judging you by another man who looks more confident and masculine.

Finding out about a possible A also helps you make sense out of something that's not making a bit of sense.

Whether your W is in an A matters a great deal, actually. But we can get into that if you decide to confirm and find out that maybe there's someone else who's been meeting her needs (even a "good friend"). It's also just good for us to know what we're working with so we know how best to advise you.

I know you feel destroyed and hopeless. We've all been there. We've all lost our appetites and cried during movies. We've all lost unreasonable amounts of weight in very short periods of time. We've all lost sleep and felt like we were living in some crazy warp zone. We've all blamed ourselves wholly for the breakdown of a M that includes two people.

In other words, you aren't alone.

And I hope you listen verrrrrry carefully to Starsky and follow his impeccable advice - sooner rather than later.

I'm sorry you're here.


M: 40 H: 44
Married 14 years
S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M
2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart
Piecing: April 2014
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(PS Don't ask your W if she is in an EA or PA. All cheaters lie. So asking her would be pointless and could cause her to drive it further underground - making it impossible for you to find out - if she *is* in one.)


M: 40 H: 44
Married 14 years
S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M
2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart
Piecing: April 2014
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Is there a thread or places to go to advise with confirming an EA / PA of a spouse?


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
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Starsky, I'm in California. Oct 22 would have been 10 years for us. So it can be considered long term.

And I have no family attorney. As mentioned I didn't work aside from some substitute teaching, and so i don't have the financial wherewithal to hire a lawyer.

I started going to "the third option" tonight. I'll try to stay in it just to figure out how to better talk to my girls and such.

This whole situation is so much crap.

And as for A, I don't know what to think or to do. So much of her comments have been MLC sounding or A sounding, but again, it's so hard to fathom that she'd risk it with our two girls in the picture. But I know I know, anything is possible.

Well, now i'm wide awake with adrenaline, so thanks a lot guys!


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2590722 07/23/15 02:35 AM
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714,

How are you doing today!

Lots to take in with all that is swirling in your head. I Urge you to read and reread the threads you have been linked by cadet and help you start moving forward in you busting activities!!!


M - 40's
W - 30's
Two Sons
Living together
Zephyr #2590740 07/23/15 04:31 AM
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it was a good day but right now i'm dying.

everyone saying the A word is making me really upset. So i typed her name into google and went to her google plus page. she has a new profile photo, is as beautiful as ever, and, as before, i have no place in that life.

she said for a the year that she liked to have the personal space be different from the work space, and it tore me up for a long time but i eventually just stopped looking at it and got over it. i had no reason to doubt her.

i dont ever get to talk to her now. everything is via text, and is short. her parents, who i liked more than my own parents, are getting colder toward me.

i mentioned that i'd take the girls on friday night and then get them back to her saturday at eight. it's fair, but i figured she'd say something. all she said was "alright."

i just can't believe this is happening. how can this happen?

she wrote this on July 7, 2011: “Life is like this for me: I work, I am a mother and I am married to you. I took vows before God and I plan on honoring them and when I fail at doing so I make amends for these failures and ask forgiveness with an eye towards building an even stronger relationship. I am not perfect and I don't expect you to be, the only thing I hope for us is to approach one another with honesty, love, warmth and humor.”

how can this happen? how could i have been such an [censored], such an idiot to throw away the smartest, most beautiful woman in the world? She was the ideal partner, the most amazing wife, and I just trashed all of it by being angry and not working things through. Never meeting in the middle.

I can't take this. right now it's worse than it has been for weeks.

why even try? why even make an effort? it's the most horrid feeling to be left here and so wanting to just hold her hand.

how can i survive this?


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2590742 07/23/15 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted By: 714Dad

how can i survive this?


I dont know......

dmbfan #2590744 07/23/15 04:52 AM
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You be strong, that is how your survive this. You have girls right? They need you to be strong. Let your W go through whatever she needs to go through, give her space and start the journey to better yourself.

You can and will do this.


Was made a better person by DB'ers
HeavyD #2590748 07/23/15 05:14 AM
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i'm just scared. i don't really ever get over things. i've always held onto the past and that was the cause of a huge amount of problems and a good amount of why she detached from me over the years.

this is making everything that i've tried to overcome in the past year come back and pound on my subconscious. catastrophic thinking, positive feedback loops, so much tension i can feel and hear my ribs cracking as the muscles contract inward and instinctively try to fold me into the fetal position.

the days are fine, because the sun is out and we're at the park or the beach or the zoo. or we run errands, or visit their cousins of friends. and the girls play.

but then evening comes and i drop off my girls at my in-laws and come home to the empty house. and i have lots still to do; laundry or dishes, or reading up on renting out rooms, but i'd still rather be making dinner and waiting for my W to get home.

then the night comes and it's dead silent. no one to talk to, no one to just look at. no one to feel close to. no body next to me to feel warmth from.

just silence. just the house settling. just endless thoughts racing around, again and again, "why didn't you do things years ago, why didn't you take her seriously, why didn't you care enough when she was here, why didn't you hold her every chance you had - instead of watching tv or being aloof...?"

endless and forever looping back. her face and her smile.

she's been gone since june 30 and it's really real. she's gone. these things settling in just make it so much more intense. like salt in the wound. the pain lingers and stings for so much longer.

i'm just so angry at myself for getting to this point.

sorry for the rant. it doesn't really help discern things. it's just what i feel. and it's so intense.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2590751 07/23/15 05:31 AM
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Some other stuff.

She's living with her parents and I would be shocked if her dad wasn't doing the things I used to do for her here. The little things. And she has people to talk to and get advice from or to validate her decisions.

I loved living so close to my in laws but now it seems like a curse. She can run there and have all of her needs met. Thus why she doesn't even notice that i'm not contacting her at all anymore (aside from practical issues with our girls). This makes a 180 of no contact seem particularly ineffective.

We used to talk all the time.

My God how long will it take to stop thinking like this?

Can't I get 'detachment' in pill form? It would be so much easier!

Last edited by 714Dad; 07/23/15 05:32 AM.

M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2590833 07/23/15 02:36 PM
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I want to ask for some early advice.

This monday will be the first of two mediator meetings. They last two hours and i think they are about dividing things and coming to understandings. this is where she'll file the divorce papers.

I have a packet to fill out that has things like pay and all that. i don't really know what it has since i haven't taken any of the papers out, only glanced at them.

should I fill it out, or 'make her do the work for the divorce'?

a problem with the not doing it approach is that in the past she was the one to fill out forms and turn them in. i never did applications, forms, school admin stuff because i always felt anxiety with them. in the last year i took over most of those things so she didn't have to do them anymore. freeing her to work and be more focused at work.

so if i fill out the forms i'll be acting better and more balanced and giving her what she wants. but if i don't it will make the weight of the divorce go to her (which seems fair since she wants it).

i could not fill it out and then in the meeting explain calmly and while validating her feelings that i simply don't have time to do it? she won't likely believe that but i am still taking care of the house and animals and reading a lot. every time i try to sit and watch tv i can't concentrate on it anyway, so i'm definitely not vegging out all evening.

i'm reading all of the threads linked by cadet? wonka? and those take a long time to get through. i'm also reading DB and doing some GAL stuff (walks in the evening, hikes, signing up for divorce groups, going to lectures, etc.). and doing the math for setting up two rooms to rent in my house. so it's not easy to find time for something i don't want to do to begin with.

so advice? should i fill the divorce mediation packet out (acting more like the new me - independent and responsible), or should i let her do it (more the me she detached from three years ago)?


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2590839 07/23/15 02:58 PM
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Although you are correct that you need to let her do the work for the divorce, I suggest doing everything possible to PROTECT yourself from this process.
Don't let her walk all over you in this and be sure to stand up for your rights, money and possessions.
Avoiding the paperwork is also not letting go.

So what I am saying is I think you should fill out the papers.
At least for your point of view.


Me-70, D37,S36
Cadet #2590848 07/23/15 03:38 PM
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Hi 714dad your situation sounds exactly the same as mine I am sorry that you are here with me on this journey it is horrible I keep thinking there must be an easy way out from this but I know it is going to be a very long road ahead

I hope things do work out for you the people here are fantastic

Take care and look after yourself

Gary


Me:48 W 41
M:18 T:26
2 D 18 & 4
2 S 17 & 13
Bomb: 20/7/2015 in house separation
D filed 06/17
Separate houses 10/17
D Final 29/12//17.
714Dad #2590857 07/23/15 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: 714Dad
Starsky, I'm in California. Oct 22 would have been 10 years for us. So it can be considered long term.

And I have no family attorney. As mentioned I didn't work aside from some substitute teaching, and so i don't have the financial wherewithal to hire a lawyer.



Most attorneys will give you a free initial consultation, 714. You should meet with two or three, preferably ones that specialize in paternal custody and "men's rights" issues. Some may even be willing to work on a contingency, as it's likely that if your wife works full-time and you are the stay-at-home dad that she will be required to pay at least part of your legal fees, if not all. Again, you can ask about this in your initial free consultation.

Do seek counsel. It doesn't mean you have to file for divorce, or even do ANYTHING at this point other than learn what your rights and responsibilities are. Nearly EVERYONE who does this reports that it's empowering and burden-lifting; it certainly was for me.

Hang in there.

Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
714Dad #2590862 07/23/15 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: 714Dad


Can't I get 'detachment' in pill form? It would be so much easier!


No, lol, but seriously anti-depressant/anti-anxiety meds really do help. My doctor gave me two -- one for any acute, "panic attack"-type moments, as needed (thankfully I only needed that 2-3 times) -- and one as a daily, "even-me-out" kind of thing. It REALLY helped, and there's no shame in it if it helps you be a better father to your kids.

They do take awhile (2+ weeks, for some of them) to kick in, so if you're thinking of asking your dr. about it the sooner the better.

I do think they would help you with your extreme moods.

Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Starsky309 #2590865 07/23/15 04:13 PM
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If you agreed with her to meet with the mediator, then I think you have an obligation to fill out the paperwork that's expected. But as Cadet says, do it to protect YOU (not to be amenable), and for gosh sakes RUN EVERYTHING BY YOUR OWN ATTORNEY BEFORE SIGNING ANYTHING FINAL. Using a mediator does NOT preclude you from hiring your own attorney to look over and advise you on the mediated agreement. Knowing that a mediator is doing the heavy lifting, many family law attorneys will charge you only by the hour (or even one quoted sum) to look over and counsel you on the mediated agreement, vs. requiring you to pay a large retainer for what would likely be a long and involved divorce process were there no mediator involved. Our mediator even SUGGESTED that we each do that.

Make sense?


Starsky

Last edited by Starsky309; 07/23/15 04:15 PM.

M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Starsky309 #2590890 07/23/15 05:29 PM
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714Dad

Sorry you are here.

I have been at that VERY mediation table ... TWICE.

Sounds like the same thing we had, we had an initial consultation, basically a meet and greet explaining the process. My W asked me what I though and I told her the truth, felt like a dirve thru-D process and I could see how the Mediation Company was out for the quick buck ... not what I wanted but I respected her decision .... was a year of back and forth till Mar15

Jan-Mar 2015 My first meeting was solo (Mid Jan2015), I had all my docs signed and prepared ... ready to go. At that point I dropped the rope and was prepared to move on I think this caught W offgueard as she was still dragging feet and did not have her docs ready .... as Starsky suggested .. GET COUNSEL, I had 2 free sessions and was well informed to what my rights were. Not only was I going to settle for nothing less than 50/50 custody, my M was 14 years at that point, W made more and would be paying me Child support and alimony if I CHOSE to push for that. Honestly I did not want/need her money but thought about my S and decided .. the D and her A were not my idea nor did I feel I should allow S to pay for that (even though he would in many ways) so I decided I would in fact press for those things, I would set that $$ aside for S .. college/trips.

At the Med table the lawyer talked me about a few things, I told her where I stood and she tried to push back a bit, well I was not budging and she told me mediation was gear towards a mutual agreement and I told her I was well aware of that, but also well aware of what the state would award and that I was willing to negotiate but not lay down and be taken ... I would L up if need be. After she understood my intentions and why ... she asked me a question about the D, I told her honestly I did not want it but at that time felt W needed it to move on and figure out herself and what she really wanted. This left that woman speechless and she commented on how insightful my statement was and how often she has witnessed that very thing.

I left feeling good about everything ... looking forward to the next chapter. We had a final meeting that was scheduled, post-poned, rescheduled 3-4 times ... then W asked me to meet up and disclosed she did not want D, wanted to work on the M.

Mediation is not the end all ... not saying your W will have that turn around .. but I am saying get your ducks in a row, protect yourself ... sitting and reading, watching TV working on a house you are about to lose will not protect YOU nor your kids from your side. If you just stall .. it will appear that way and will not gain you respect from your W, it will possibly delay the process but its not going to get you any closer to saving your M .... the ball is already rolling and you have a choice to direct it some ... or let it roll over you.


M: 48
W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



CaliGuy #2590945 07/23/15 08:06 PM
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the lorazapam really does take that edge off.

part of the agreement last year is that I would finally get on some sort of antidepressant after having had bad experiences prior. So i've been taking bupropion since late april 2014. i also have a prescrip for lorazapam for muscle relaxation, and that helps to calm and keep that chest tightening down.

I've called a lawyer and they went from $450 from a consultation to $150 saying they could stretch some deal from last month. So I'll go in for that.

These days are hard. All day is childcare and then all night is house cleaning or reading forms. The change seems to be only in the silence of the house at night.

And truly appreciate all the comments and advice you are giving me. CaliGuy does your thread go into more about the mediation process? I'll go over and look, but I'd be interested to know about it.

I'll likely see the lawyer tomorrow.

I'm still so attached it's pathetic. I picked up my girls from my in laws and while they were brushing their teeth I noticed the new perfumes my wife bought in the medicine cabinet. they smelled good, but immediately made my chest clamp up and i had to take that lorazapam.

curiosity killed the cat.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2590947 07/23/15 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: 714Dad
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And truly appreciate all the comments and advice you are giving me. CaliGuy does your thread go into more about the mediation process? I'll go over and look, but I'd be interested to know about it.

I'll likely see the lawyer tomorrow.

I'm still so attached it's pathetic. I picked up my girls from my in laws and while they were brushing their teeth I noticed the new perfumes my wife bought in the medicine cabinet. they smelled good, but immediately made my chest clamp up and i had to take that lorazapam.

curiosity killed the cat.


I do not think I really went that deep into it. Like I mentioned the first one was about 6 months after the initial BD and I think W was just pushing my buttons, then the second attempt more serious but when I was honestly all for it and ready to move on she started to come out of the fog a bit.

Your wife will have new perfume, clothes, do her makeup differently .. all that ... has nothing to do with you nor helps you focus on that. Worry about you, and your lil ones .. let her go for now.


M: 48
W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



CaliGuy #2591012 07/24/15 02:47 AM
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got a text from my wife. long story short it was about papers i needed for the mediation thing. she then called and i went outside. i tried my best to validate but she said i sounded weird and she wished i'd just sound honest.

she got mad again and said "do you know how many times in all these years i wanted to have a calm discussion. and now you can suddenly have one."

i said i understand it must feel annoying and i wasn't trying to irritate her.

she asked why i didn't just call her about the kids or the papers or speak directly to her and i said i was giving her the space she wanted.

"you know this divoirce is going through right? i'm not changing my mind. we both agreed on that?" i said i understood it was going to happen but that i didn't agree with it.

i said how could i claim to value her opinion and then tell her that she couldn't make a decision like that?

i did, (sigh), say that the main thing i prayed for was for her to finally be happy regardless of how this turns out. that seemed to make her more upset.

she is very angry about what she has now made into years of neglect. in reality i was neglectful, but in a dopey stupid way. not vindictive.

i tried so hard not to say sorry, and not to sound weak or odd, but it still came off as artificial.

she also commented on how i'm living it up in the house alone, i get to see the kids most of the day and then i get the house alone at night.

and that i seem happier than ive ever been. (LRT working?)

she seemed genuinely upset but still intent on the divorce.

she asked why i never was like this before when it would have mattered and i said, "i can only be the person i am now, i can only be the person i want to be." and she asked why i couldn't do it when it mattered and i said "there just wasnt a catalyst i guess." she sarcastically said "so i should have left three years ago."

so drama.

i stayed calm, but sounded fake.

my heart was in my throat.

seeing a lawyer tomorrow.

pray for me.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2591511 07/26/15 04:34 AM
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thank you to Starsky for advising the lawyer.

i went on friday afternoon and it was very, very eye opening. it makes me concerned for the civility of the mediation meeting monday, because as it came out in the computer program, she'll have to pay me a considerable amount of money in child support and spousal support as it stands now.

the lawyer suggested some tactics and suggestions and how to use that to leverage more security for keeping the house, but again, it's going to be an interesting meeting.

i plan to stand up not so much to 'get what's mine' but more to say, "look, we agreed to work together for the rest of our lives and build a future. we have children that need stability and security. i am not going to hand over what we built together as if i contributed nothing to it. i worked just like you, often more like 16 hours a day, and weekends. i am not going to roll over on this."

of course i will say it calmly and with as much validating non confrontational language as possible. but the sentiment will be there.

as far as GALing, i've joined a swing dancing group, sea kayaking group, and a divorce group via meetup.com. i don't dance, and i have no rhythm. so it'll be interesting. when/if my wife finds out i imagine it will make her more irritated that i didn't do these things years ago. i don't think i'm doing them to impress her, i just really need something to do and it sounds interesting and totally out of the ordinary for me.

a bonus is that if i can one day rekindle something with her i'll be able to take her out and ask her to wear the dress i got her in 2006 or 07 that i don't thing she ever wore because i never took her anywhere it could be worn.

and a question for you veterans. in my last post i mentioned that she said i 'seemed happier than i ever have lately.' my concern is that this is validating her idea that i am better off without her. that i am finally happy and that i can move on to be with someone else who is better for me. i am positive, working on eye contact the rare times i see her, and dressing nice and being confident. so is it evidence of LRT working, or validating her ideas that i am so much happier without her? she is obviously noticing, but not by seeming attracted, more by seeming validated in her decision to leave.

what do you think?


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2591640 07/26/15 09:10 PM
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so my first official mediation meeting is tomorrow. i filled out the forms as best i could, but a lot of the information is online and i don't have the accounts or passwords to look stuff up. it is mostly a few small savings accounts that i know about, so if they don't come up tomorrow i can at least mention them.

still wondering if anyone has any advice. i plan to look official, wear a tie like last time, and stand up for stuff. so i'm really looking for suggestions on behavior, how much validating language i should use and all that.

i am going to make lots of solid eye contact (at least on my end), the idea being to project confidence.

it just rattles me on how determined she is to "get out" of this marriage.

i am still working on detachment. some days are much better than others. it comes in waves and is really annoying. it's like now that she left i have time to do all these things... but a lot of the things i would have done or wanted to do are things i would have loved to have done with her. kayaking again, backpacking, camping, etc. all the things we used to do that fell away as time passed by.

i'm not doing these things to impress her or get her back, but it is so frustrating to finally have the time to think of all things to do with/for her that i used to put aside because of the kids or the house, but now she's gone. the irony is laughable.

as far as GALing, i went to a new church this morning. it's a large and very active church with a huge youth population. the idea being that I will have my girls half the time and it would provide a good social environment for them. it also opens up more social groups for me to be involved with, so that's a plus.

i still feel like i'm in a fog so much.

like, how is this happening, how can an 18 year relationship dissolve in a month and a half?

how can she be so determined to end this?

how horrible does she remember me being to justify this breakup?

how can she remember 18 years as almost entirely bad?

why does she need to "experience life on her own?"


as you can see the detachment is going really swell.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2591646 07/26/15 09:30 PM
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also, when i picked up my girls on friday morning my wife was still there, still in her pjs. i was dressed per the usual now, button up casual shirt or polo, etc. hair combed.

when we left i resisted saying anything and as the door was closing she said, "have a good day" like she used to. i instinctively and with enthusiasm said, "you too" giving her a small smile as the door closed.

it's something, however small. whether instinctual or not, it was a positive and a nice thing to say. again, i didn't dwell or overreact, i just smiled and let the door close.

then when dropping them off last night at 8pm I went in and she asked what they did, so i was upbeat and gave a brief rundown saying, "they had a lot of fun today, we went to (friends) pancake breakfast party, they bounced in the bouncehouse and played. then we came home at 2pm and they played the dance game for a while, then we went to (cousin's) house and they got to swim and play with C and E... Then we came here."

my wife didn't say much other than, an "okay" or something, but it was another in the list of positive and optimistic discussions/conversations (if you could call it that).

I gave my girls big long hugs and then walked out and closed the door.

then came home to the divorce packet.

any thoughts, ideas, suggestions... anyone?


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2591654 07/26/15 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: 714Dad


it just rattles me on how determined she is to "get out" of this marriage.

i still feel like i'm in a fog so much.

like, how is this happening, how can an 18 year relationship dissolve in a month and a half?

how can she be so determined to end this?

how horrible does she remember me being to justify this breakup?

how can she remember 18 years as almost entirely bad?

why does she need to "experience life on her own?"


as you can see the detachment is going really swell.


Hang in there, this does really s@£Ks! I am 7 months into this and still asking these questions and trying to detach. It does get better, but very very slowly. It helps me to remember 'believe nothing of what they say and only 50% of what they do'

Easy to say but so hard to do, the only thing is learn to work on ourself. (((. )))


Both 47 M 20 T25 S 18
EA July 11- Jan 12. ILYBNILWY Oct EA April 13 -July 13
Move to work abroad Sept 14
re establish contact with OW while away
D bomb 22/12/14 D filed papers served 17/03/15

714Dad #2591807 07/27/15 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: 714Dad


and a question for you veterans. in my last post i mentioned that she said i 'seemed happier than i ever have lately.' my concern is that this is validating her idea that i am better off without her.


I would respond to her with "Look, this is NOT what I wanted, or a place I ever dreamed we'd end up. But I realize now that I'll be okay regardless of what happens, and I'm trying to use this time to work on some things for myself and those have been good for me, and are helping my outlook."

Or something similar.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
714Dad #2591809 07/27/15 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: 714Dad
stands now.

the lawyer suggested some tactics and suggestions and how to use that to leverage more security for keeping the house, but again, it's going to be an interesting meeting.

i plan to stand up not so much to 'get what's mine' but more to say, "look, we agreed to work together for the rest of our lives and build a future. we have children that need stability and security. i am not going to hand over what we built together as if i contributed nothing to it. i worked just like you, often more like 16 hours a day, and weekends. i am not going to roll over on this."


I think that's perfect. whistle


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Starsky309 #2591894 07/27/15 06:46 PM
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well, the two hours were entirely about custody. i had my shined allen edmonds shoes, new cologne... etc.

I was early, she was late.

She looks very tired, but I still couldn't stop looking at her. The first thing I wanted to talk about was custody, so we went with that.

I suggested the 2-2-3 plan phasing into the 2-2-5 plan in two years. my wife was noticeably shocked to see how much less time she will get to see the girls as we go to shared custody. when the mediator left the room she said she felt like she should get sole custody and i could see them on weekends because "all i ever did was complain about having to watch them."

The mediator agreed with the 2-2-3 plan and my wife said she liked the 2-2-5 plan better. after a while W finally agreed that the former plan was better because of the time spent away from the parent is less. it's better for three year olds anyway. She is genuinely upset and even teary over realizing how much less she'll see them.

I tried validating language. I disagreed gently a few times but let it go when she got more upset.

She doesn't want my parents to watch them and instead wants daycare or a nanny of some kind to watch them. how that will be affordable i don't know.

throughout the meeting i cracked a few jokes, my wife huffed, but not a real laugh. i was upbeat, spoke softly, but didn't back down. each holiday we discussed and modified my idea as she suggested something else.

We left ten minutes early. I didn't look at her or say anything, i just said thanks to the paralegal and went to the elevator. I walked to the car and didn't look back.

i had to call her and leave a message asking if she has the girls today and tomorrow for the 2-2-3 arrangement. but i was brisk and not drawn out.


So that's my update. it looks like she's the LBS from the way she looks to me. tired and drained, getting upset as the facts come about. i feel sorry for her on a human level, but i know that this is what she wants and she's stubborn so she'll take it all the way through. her parents are cheerleadnig her too.

next meeting is in two weeks. the new agreement is that she will pick them up from the house on her way home from work, which means i'll have small meetings face to face in which to continue acting positive or supporting her if she shares something about work.

today was positive.

but the next meeting will be doom and gloom. that's going to be finances and property. and when she sees what the dissomaster spits out as child and spousal support, she will not be happy.

i need to get ready for that.

thank you all for the help and positivity.


i have a phone interview today, so wish me luck.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
Starsky309 #2591896 07/27/15 06:49 PM
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(I would respond to her with "Look, this is NOT what I wanted, or a place I ever dreamed we'd end up. But I realize now that I'll be okay regardless of what happens, and I'm trying to use this time to work on some things for myself and those have been good for me, and are helping my outlook."

Or something similar.

Starsky)


Thanks for telling me now! why couldn't you have channeled my mind and taken over like professor x? then i could have said the right thing!

all i said was, "I can only be who I am now. I cannot change the past, but I can be who I want to be going forward."

pfft!


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2591914 07/27/15 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: 714Dad
(I would respond to her with "Look, this is NOT what I wanted, or a place I ever dreamed we'd end up. But I realize now that I'll be okay regardless of what happens, and I'm trying to use this time to work on some things for myself and those have been good for me, and are helping my outlook."

Or something similar.

Starsky)


Thanks for telling me now! why couldn't you have channeled my mind and taken over like professor x? then i could have said the right thing!

all i said was, "I can only be who I am now. I cannot change the past, but I can be who I want to be going forward."

pfft!


Well that's a pretty good answer too! And good job at the mediator's, under trying circumstances. You're doing well!!

whistle whistle

Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Starsky309 #2592471 07/29/15 02:30 PM
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How's it goin', 714?


M: 40 H: 44
Married 14 years
S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M
2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart
Piecing: April 2014
Train #2593182 07/31/15 05:45 PM
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Well...

Tuesday was my day to get the girls. (We're on a 2-2-3 custody arrangement).

My wife mentioned that my D6 wanted to something for her birthday with her horse riding instructor... I said I was taking them to San Francisco that weekend and that because I would be gone my three days of the weekend and not need to 'borrow' one of her days I didn't need to 'ask' her.

She, for lack of a better word, freaked out.

She ended up calling and i tried my best and remained calm sounding, but my mouth dried out and my heart was racing. She really was yelling at me, saying that she 'agreed to my custody suggestion (even though the mediator endorsed it fully and I originally got the suggestion from a lawyer) because she doesn't want to take the girls away from me..." "But I will go to court and get more custody if you continue to treat me this way."

the phone disconnected once, and i hung up once trying to enforce boundaries, but she called back and that's when she was yelling about court.

by the end i was still calm sounding, even though i had stood up for my side and not caved. i finally redirected (or gave in i guess) when she said that D6 had told her on sunday that she wanted the party. I told my W that she could have just told me that. I went on "threatening going to court is counterproductive and doesn't solve anything for us. you just need to communicate with me and tell me what is going on. you called me sunday night at 11:30 to ask about the mediator meeting - you could have told me then."

she responded, "I've been busy. I get home, eat dinner, and get the girls ready for bed and then don't get a chance by myself until 11:00pm sometimes. Last night they both had really bad growing pains and I didn't get them to sleep till really late."

I replied, trying to validate, "I'm sorry you had such a hard time getting them to sleep."

She was silent.

I went on, "I'm not trying to upset you, I'm not trying to fight. I am being honest with you and giving you what you've said you want."

Then I inadvertently and stupidly brought up some past R stuff and she disagreed with me. I said I didn't want to see her upset, that I hated seeing her upset and that I just wanted to see her smile or laugh or be happy. (ugh).

she asked if I had the girls and I said no. We'd been 'talking' for an hour, she blamed me for making her take sick time to stay on the phone and brought up again how i had neglected her when our D6 was a baby. "You never just laid down with us and was present, you we're working on the house or the yard. you can't make up for that."

I should have said. "you're right, I wasn't present enough" but I said, "well I'm sorry you remember that. if you look at our photos i think you'll see that i was there and that we did spend time together." She of course replied, "a photo is just a moment, it isn't indicative of time spent - it's just one second."

I just reiterated that I can only be who i am now and what I want to be going forward.

I had an appointment at a group interview for a job, so I just said "I have an appt. at 10am, so I need to go, goodbye" and after she said something I hung up.

I got D6 and D3 from my in-laws, raced to my parents, dropped them off, then went to the interviews which lasted till 2pm.

They went well, but it wasn't for the job i was expecting and I was just honest with them saying i wanted something in sales rather than admin / customer relations.

i went home, felt stupid, prayed, saw my girls, then my parents took me and D6 and D3 out to eat.

Thursday I played with D3 and D6, went to a neighborhood park, then I had my brother and his wife and kids over to eat, then my niece spent the night.

we had an afternoon thunderstorm which is super rare here and they played in the rain.

I gave them a bath, got them ready, and let them watch tv while i did dishes and then took my own shower. Then we read a bit, then i took the older two upstairs, then laid with D3 till she was asleep. Then I got up and finished DR.

I feel really hopeless right now.

I know exactly how she felt all those years when I said I couldn't forgive her for the things she'd done in the past. Now I'm having to swallow my own medicine and it's so, so horrible. But I was here when I complained, whereas she was able to leave and seemingly not look back.

I want to ask how she can feel this or hold onto those things, but it would be nothing but hypocrisy on my part.

I just want to hold her hand or to see her smile at me. it just hurts and hurt and hurts. and when i try to pray to accept this and for strength and to be better i just break down and sob and beg that my family not be split up, that she will feel some love, that her memory will be unclouded, that her heart will soften.

but the hopelessness is so pervasive. I read DR and feel content, "oh it's not so bad, it can work" but then i don't see her or hear from her at all - no way to be different around her. and I feel it all vaporizing around me.

and now it's a 3 day weekend of not having the girls and feeling alone. I want to go kayaking tomorrow, but it will be alone.

if i had a job i'd be occupied, but i don't, and my W on tuesday during her diatribe talked about how "I'm spending her money" and all that. that was always an insecurity for me as a stay at home dad, and she always said it was our money or our families money. but now that language is changed.

any input at all for from anyone? sound familiar, any advice, any ideas? is her anger a sign that she's still engaged in the R or that she just hates me?

i'm really not doing well with this.

every time i look out i hope to see her coming down the driveway and then coming in and us talking about how to move forward. detaching is so hard.

i told my girls they were super lucky because tonight they get to see the smartest and most beautiful woman in the world. if they tell her that it'll be like i'm pursuing, but how else can i show my girls what a husband is supposed to think of his wife? i want them to know that that's how someone should feel about them. so i say it and if they tell her she'll probably have some ultra-neutral response to them.

God this is so hard. So lonely. So devastating.

any input from anyone?


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2593184 07/31/15 06:01 PM
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All I can say 714 Dad is you are not alone. I read your story and it is as if I am reading my own. Some things just don't make sense. How can someone leave me when I am such a loving husband?

It may sound hypocritical since I am thinking about this every minute of every day, but focus on your girls. Try best to detach. Exercise seems to help me a lot. I'm down 25+ lbs and 10-15 lbs from my ideal weight.

I'm still skeptical of this forum, to be honest. I wonder how much of it is to sell expensive phone counseling. However, I agree that detaching for you and the sake of the R is best.


T:22 M:17
Me: 44YO Her: 42YO
1 son 13YO
BD 5/16/15
Her affair w/ OW 3/15-7/15
Her: ILYBNILWY
714Dad #2593203 07/31/15 07:36 PM
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I am just going to chop up your post to the points I want to touch on
Originally Posted By: 714Dad


My wife mentioned that my D6 wanted to something for her birthday with her horse riding instructor... I said I was taking them to San Francisco that weekend and that because I would be gone my three days of the weekend and not need to 'borrow' one of her days I didn't need to 'ask' her.

She, for lack of a better word, freaked out.


Reading up on you... I can relate to you and your W. My W was also the primary bread winner, I worked but for several years my job was more about time/time off and doing the things around the house rather than to contract it out. Put that on paper and I felt my worth was not measurable ... over time I do think my W started resenting me a bit for that.

Your W freaking out here ... thats control. Just accept that for what it is .. she is wanting this all to go her way, you will need to rebuild yourself and start earning some respect from her slowly and gradually (Planting this seed in you... its important)

Originally Posted By: 714Dad

She ended up calling and i tried my best and remained calm sounding, but my mouth dried out and my heart was racing. She really was yelling at me, saying that she 'agreed to my custody suggestion (even though the mediator endorsed it fully and I originally got the suggestion from a lawyer) because she doesn't want to take the girls away from me..." "But I will go to court and get more custody if you continue to treat me this way."

the phone disconnected once, and i hung up once trying to enforce boundaries, but she called back and that's when she was yelling about court.

by the end i was still calm sounding, even though i had stood up for my side and not caved. i finally redirected (or gave in i guess) when she said that D6 had told her on sunday that she wanted the party. I told my W that she could have just told me that. I went on "threatening going to court is counterproductive and doesn't solve anything for us. you just need to communicate with me and tell me what is going on. you called me sunday night at 11:30 to ask about the mediator meeting - you could have told me then."

she responded, "I've been busy. I get home, eat dinner, and get the girls ready for bed and then don't get a chance by myself until 11:00pm sometimes. Last night they both had really bad growing pains and I didn't get them to sleep till really late."

I replied, trying to validate, "I'm sorry you had such a hard time getting them to sleep."

She was silent.

I went on, "I'm not trying to upset you, I'm not trying to fight. I am being honest with you and giving you what you've said you want."

Then I inadvertently and stupidly brought up some past R stuff and she disagreed with me. I said I didn't want to see her upset, that I hated seeing her upset and that I just wanted to see her smile or laugh or be happy.
(ugh).


Part of that 'respect' thing. Look up Wonkas Boundary post. You will need to start putting some boundaries in place, things you just will no longer tolerate, her flipping out, treating you badly, spew, all that ... time to stand up for yourself here a little. Validating is great, but not when its in a reaction manner to appease them while they are spewing venom your way. They are not really receptive at that point anyways right? Just calmly let her know you can continue the discussion when you both can be calm and civil .... and make sure YOU are the one ending all conversations.

Originally Posted By: 714Dad


she asked if I had the girls and I said no. We'd been 'talking' for an hour, she blamed me for making her take sick time to stay on the phone and brought up again how i had neglected her when our D6 was a baby. "You never just laid down with us and was present, you we're working on the house or the yard. you can't make up for that."

I should have said. "you're right, I wasn't present enough""I would do alot of things differently in retrospect" but I said, "well I'm sorry you remember that. if you look at our photos i think you'll see that i was there and that we did spend time together." She of course replied, "a photo is just a moment, it isn't indicative of time spent - it's just one second."

Well you weren't sitting on your a$$ either ... Thing is 714 the WW will very often re-write your history, they do this in their minds, demonize you, in order to justify them leaving, their actions, shed their own guilt. Truth is this was not an over night process, they latch on to every bad memory, negative issue and focus solely on that forgetting all the good. Its the Baseball term, catch 999 fly balls but you will be remembered for that one you drop.

Originally Posted By: 714Dad

I just reiterated that I can only be who i am now and what I want to be going forward.This is very good

if i had a job i'd be occupied, but i don't, and my W on tuesday during her diatribe talked about how "I'm spending her money" and all that. that was always an insecurity for me as a stay at home dad, and she always said it was our money or our families money. but now that language is changed.

Own your past, learn from it. Keep the "I'd do many things differently if I could, but I have been working on myself and will continue to do so, thus far I am very please with the progress I have made"

Originally Posted By: 714Dad

any input at all for from anyone? sound familiar, any advice, any ideas? is her anger a sign that she's still engaged in the R or that she just hates me?

i'm really not doing well with this.

every time i look out i hope to see her coming down the driveway and then coming in and us talking about how to move forward. detaching is so hard.

i told my girls they were super lucky because tonight they get to see the smartest and most beautiful woman in the world. if they tell her that it'll be like i'm pursuing, but how else can i show my girls what a husband is supposed to think of his wife? i want them to know that that's how someone should feel about them. so i say it and if they tell her she'll probably have some ultra-neutral response to them.

God this is so hard. So lonely. So devastating.

any input from anyone?


Your W is angry at the moment. Read up on Sandis WW thread .. it really gives some solid insight on where they are. Her anger being a sign .... just look at it as something she needs to process, she has it that stage in the M where the current M has not lived up to her expectations and she is furious about it ... not fair to you as that fantasy has been fed since she was a little girl and dreamed of Mr Right.

Do not count on that movie type entrance from her ... No Expectations. I had a fit with detaching too .. but got to the point the pain was worse than ripping off that duct tape.

As far as your girls ... you can show them you are a kind loving man, an excellent father, I would not build up your W that way ... do not chop her down either. Kids are seriously smart and learn more by observing than what we say, in these cases .. ACTIONS speak far louder than words. Do not try to plant seeds in your kids and think they are going to deliver plants to your W, do not use them this way (Your W will see it as a tactic and it will backfire) ... be the best father you can

This is by far the hardest thing I have ever done, I would not wish my last 2 years on anyone .... I have the G Clooney greys to prove it where I had none when this all started.

Small steps, small slow and steady changes in you ... allow yourself time. All the changes you make you r W will think of them just as a trick to get her back .... she will not trust them .. but over time they stick, over time she will learn to accept them, as she starts seeing things clearer through the fog she is in.

Hang in there.


M: 48
W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



CaliGuy #2593277 07/31/15 10:49 PM
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Thank you Cali.

I feel very superficial in things. like maybe all these attempts are fake.

Do you just push through those thoughts? GALing = i'm going to take my kayak down to the back bay tomorrow and paddle it for the first time since before my first daughter was born. i might go out past the jetty even.

anyway i use instagram and i don't look at anything else for fear of seeing stuff my W is doing. so is my posting there, of me making the girls pancakes, cooking dinner - it's all the stuff i already used to do. i'm just thinking i'm being more spontaneous with it.

so it's not for me truly and i'm hoping she's seeing it. as mentioned before she said it looks like i'm happier than i've ever been. that just cuts so deep.

should i comment on her posts with positives? like, "so good to see you with old friends" (even though seeing that makes me take a lorazapam and drink a beer at 3pm).

going dark seems impossible with two small children. it also seems like she really wont notice me anyway because her dad and mom are there to help with things. she wont miss me running to cvs at 11:30pm because her dad will, etc. or sitting up and singing to and rocking a feverish baby, because her dad will.

i know i can get other women, a big problem that my wife felt betrayed by was a 21 year old coming on to me when i went back to CSUF to get a BA (I was 32 or 33). I also had someone once leave a note on my bike telling me i was handsome and leaving a phone number. i thought it was funny and told my W, she said
"it must be a joke from one of your students" which made me feel crappy. she didn't mean it like that but it came across.

and all i've done for the past year is tell her how amazing she looks, but my criticizing her feet once in 1999 or something is still brought up. she just cannot forgive me. all of these things that she said were gone have come crashing back in and smothered me.

she says she feels like she spent out entire relationship trying to reassure me that i looked good or attractive. i didn't need compliments, i just cant deal with them well.

anyway, the point being, i could find someone new, but i dont want someone new. i want that big scar on her thigh, i want her hands, i want that cesarean scar where D6 came out, i want her legs, feet, hips, shoulders... i just want everything about her. so maybe it is all physical.

i need to go load my kayak.

thank you everyone for the help.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2593278 07/31/15 10:55 PM
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Oh, and when I said things like, "I can hear how frustrated you are" and stuff like that she just yelled, "stop telling me what i'm feeling, you don't control me!

just wanted to add that. i'd appreciate any simple gems for validating feelings that have worked for others.

thanks.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2593280 07/31/15 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: 714Dad
Thank you Cali.

I feel very superficial in things. like maybe all these attempts are fake.

Do you just push through those thoughts? GALing = i'm going to take my kayak down to the back bay tomorrow and paddle it for the first time since before my first daughter was born. i might go out past the jetty even.

Yeah .. its all you can do. Sometimes give yourself a set time .. 5-10 minutes to think about it .. set the alarm on your phone .. when it goes off .. you stop and do something ... some people think of a STOP sign .. that never worked for me, I found a set time to think then move on.

Originally Posted By: 714Dad

anyway i use instagram and i don't look at anything else for fear of seeing stuff my W is doing. so is my posting there, of me making the girls pancakes, cooking dinner - it's all the stuff i already used to do. i'm just thinking i'm being more spontaneous with it.

so it's not for me truly and i'm hoping she's seeing it. as mentioned before she said it looks like i'm happier than i've ever been. that just cuts so deep.

If its NOT FOR YOU ... do not do it. Hoping she sees it ... expectations ... stay out of that sandbox.

As far as her saying you look happier .. well, here is the deal, it might hurt but this is not your choice, you are doing the best you can under the circumstances and she is simply using that to justify her actions.

Originally Posted By: 714Dad


should i comment on her posts with positives? like, "so good to see you with old friends" (even though seeing that makes me take a lorazapam and drink a beer at 3pm).

Nope ... Clint Eastwood would not do that .. he would slam a shot and go about his day. I think people do not understand commenting and 'liking' posts ... its pursuing. Don't do it.

Originally Posted By: 714Dad

going dark seems impossible with two small children. it also seems like she really wont notice me anyway because her dad and mom are there to help with things. she wont miss me running to cvs at 11:30pm because her dad will, etc. or sitting up and singing to and rocking a feverish baby, because her dad will.

I agree ... dark with kids... is impossible. Go dim. Only be available when its about the kids, it takes time. Be the best Dad you can be .. from what I can tell you are right on point there, You are the only father they will know, and being a damn good one is attractive not just to her but to others .. keep playing that record.
As far as her having 'Papa' to go to CVS ... its not tthe Errand-Boy she is going to miss ... sure she is home where mommy and daddy can console her, but guess what? Living with parents at this age ... no thanks. Its not what she wanted, the longer she is there she will remember why she left.


Originally Posted By: 714Dad


i know i can get other women, a big problem that my wife felt betrayed by was a 21 year old coming on to me when i went back to CSUF to get a BA (I was 32 or 33). I also had someone once leave a note on my bike telling me i was handsome and leaving a phone number. i thought it was funny and told my W, she said
"it must be a joke from one of your students" which made me feel crappy. she didn't mean it like that but it came across.

and all i've done for the past year is tell her how amazing she looks, but my criticizing her feet once in 1999 or something is still brought up. she just cannot forgive me. all of these things that she said were gone have come crashing back in and smothered me.

she says she feels like she spent out entire relationship trying to reassure me that i looked good or attractive. i didn't need compliments, i just cant deal with them well.

LMAO ... I always told my W her feet were ugly ... she is gorgeous but I felt the need to bring her down to earth and that was the one thing I could find .... she is STILL bugged by that comment I made what ... 20 years ago.
I had similar .. I DJ'd 3 nights a week, and yeah ... drunk chicks dig the DJ and I had plenty TM me, FB me ... all that. It was an issue I did not give enough attention to and made my W feel less that ... learn from that. But right now .... there is no fixing those issues in the old M till your W commits to working on a new one with you.
Might be a time you validate, admit your part in the old M ... but thats R talk .. 1st Rule of fight club is there is no fight club ... 2nd rule ... well you know it .. 3rd rule we do not bring up R talk.

Originally Posted By: 714Dad

anyway, the point being, i could find someone new, but i dont want someone new. i want that big scar on her thigh, i want her hands, i want that cesarean scar where D6 came out, i want her legs, feet, hips, shoulders... i just want everything about her. so maybe it is all physical.

i need to go load my kayak.

thank you everyone for the help.


I was the same .. and it is tough not wanting what we can not have isnt it? See that? Thats part of this ... your W has to start wanting what she can not have, she must begin to chase you .... but for her to do that she has to respect you first ... alot of WW and WAW lost respect for the LBH, most likely because he lost himself.

Even now, my W and I are working on things ... out of nowhere this morning I got a taste of the old W, the old M .. I quickly put a stop to that, stated a boundary that I placed long ago ... W was shocked .. used the spew as a defense tactic so I left. I later got a full apology and she admitted she did not know where it came from. I can tell you ... she is respecting that I have become more of a man around the house, standing up for myself even with small things.

Start earning that lost respect back ... to do this you have to rediscover 714Dad ... you do this by grabbing that kayak and rowing the crap out of it ... get out there and enjoy the day.


M: 48
W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



714Dad #2593281 07/31/15 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: 714Dad
Oh, and when I said things like, "I can hear how frustrated you are" and stuff like that she just yelled, "stop telling me what i'm feeling, you don't control me!

just wanted to add that. i'd appreciate any simple gems for validating feelings that have worked for others.

thanks.


Yeah .. she is angry, you did not tell her how she was feeling. Rather than "I can hear how frustrated you are" Opt for "I'm sorry you feel that way" or " That must be very frustrating" ... you can even repeat back what they said as a question, someone here a while back suggested that and it really opens a door for them to share more ... consider it Intel Recon.

My W after a bit became irritated with my "I am sorry you feel that way" line so I switched it slightly. Wonka has that validation cheat sheet and there are several options ... read up on them as you have to pull that stuff out on the fly and its tricky when you are just starting out.

Remember ... Feelings are feelings, they are not right or wrong, who she feels is just that. Just knowing that made me realize it was her and HER feelings ... helped me detach from them a bit.


M: 48
W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



CaliGuy #2593350 08/01/15 05:17 AM
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Hows this for snooping.

Going through some old boxes looking for a kayak bilge pump...

found one of my wife's diaries.

it has the moment she started noticing me and we became friends and goes though to our three month anniversary on 8/20/1997.

what a horrible thing to look back at what was there, just budding, and to feel where i am now.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2593612 08/02/15 01:35 PM
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so saturday I went kayaking. got to launch area around 7:30am and paddled out. I went a different way through the harbor than my W and I used to go. I went all the way out past the jetty to a buoy covered in sea lions. it was interesting. i didn't get as tired as i thought i would, not at all. and I'm only a little sore this morning.

then around 10:20am i realized there was a parent work thing at D3s pre-school. so i raced up there and worked for a little while. i filled in D3s teacher a bit with the situation and talked for a while.

i've been spending most of my time reading the WW vs WAW thread that Sandi started. It's not reassuring to say the least. From what i read there i still think my W is more of a WAW, and I'm wondering if there's a thread or forum just for that? after all i donft want to go the tough love route if it ends up driving her farther away.

obviously i'm still trying to detach, still GALing, and still trying to not let her occupy 100% of my thoughts, but it's hard.

and since i don't do social media outside instagram, i'm not privy to her 'changes' on social media. she's always had a presence because she is a web developer, and her facebook account was for work in her words. but now people have let slip that she'd posting more there and that really irks me. not that it should because she can do what she wants of course.

Comments like, "I have to focus on my career." "our relationship was never healthy." "ILIYBNILWY." "you'll be happier with someone else." "we met too young." "i never got to experience being out on my own." "maybe this is a huge mistake but i need to do this for myself."

are those WW or WAW statements?

she's not at home, it's been a little over a month now that she's been at her parents, so i don't know what else has changed. i don't do and don't want to do social media stuff and keep reading there (makes detaching impossible). there is D6s birthday party on sunday that i already agreed to go to, but other than that we don't see each other at all. and barely talk via text. she only calls if she's upset or something.

it's all very discouraging as many of you know.

i want to know what she's feeling. is she happy finally that i'm not there and she finally feels free? is she suffering or missing me at all? she's seemed upset the times i've seen her and in mediation, but she said at the beginning "i've made my decision and I need to stick with it." meaning that no matter how much it hurts she's going to go through with it? no matter what is does?

it's all so confusing. I finished DR, and there's one hopeful story in the back of it regarding a guy with a D6 and D3 just like me. but again, his wife was still at home.

i'm just really discouraged with now over all this.

and the whole 'for better and for worse' thing is really irritating me too. a woman who went from "we're one person now in the eyes of God" to "i thought when one of us was unhappy we could just leave the marriage." bugs the hell out of me.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2593843 08/03/15 07:07 AM
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I am off to work and will post when I can today about your WAW v WW point as I think it's interesting.

An example of a WAW who reconciled is Edz story, he pulled the lighthouse strategy very well.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2593886 08/03/15 01:23 PM
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She called yesterday to talk about D6 party. Again, very cut and dry. Not cold, but just business-like.

I was calm. She seems to be reposition herself to try and get more custody when it comes to it. Comments like "I really think I should have them more, because you have so much stuff to get in order." or "There are some issues that I don't want them to be around - that's one of the reasons we're going through this." etc. (referring to depression or anger). i think i argued slightly, but then changed to say that I would do a lot of things differently if I could (per Starsky's suggestion).

she mentioned how easy it was for me because of everything she had set up here to make the house a home, and that i did basically none of it with her. This is where i protested and said that we did it together, to which she asked for examples. I mentioned moving furniture for her, or modifying furniture. stuff like that. she just discounted it all. she said everything in their room, the linens she collected over time, the whole house as it is was her doing. which i don't understand because she said at least twice how much she felt like it wasn't her home, she said she hated living here several times, etc. so again, there's lots of story changes as it moves along.

In two weeks i take the girls for a small family vacation, she was supposed to come originally of course, but now she said she was going to use that time to come to the house and start packing up what was hers, etc. My heart was clenching, but i said in an upbeat voice, "I was going to suggest that."

She mentioned making an doctor's appointment for the girls and about something with D3 that "she'd asked me lot's of times to talk to the doctor about and I never did." I reminded her to make sure that it has been a year or more since D6 checkup so that insurance would not double bill and she replied, "I know that, I understand insurance." in a slightly confrontational way.

the phone dropped the call three times and she called back each time. i was panicked by the end but didn't let it come through.

she tried to talk about the house saying, "i just don't see how you can afford it, and how you'll buy me out of my share." and i just deflected to the mediator saying we'd talk about it then. i'm really nervous for that meeting, because she's going to flip out when she sees how much child support, etc. she will likely be required to pay. She'll think it's me trying to force her to stay or to get revenge on her or something else. so that is really making me anxious. i plan, first thing in the mediator meeting, to bring up the idea of boundaries and that if one spouse yells at the other there needs to be a cooling off period - and that threats don't work (i have no problem going to court!, etc.).

does anyone know the average time that spousal support is paid? Like how long it takes the unemployed LBS to find a job if they didn't have one? what is a usual court mandated time for child support to continue? again, i feel like the 1950s housewife set adrift with no map in the middle of the ocean. there are plenty of things i can do, but nothing is lined up in front of me. i know, it is so attractive to the opposite sex.

so yeah. fun times.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2593887 08/03/15 01:35 PM
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oh, and GALing - went to a swing dancing class last night.

first time ever dancing (outside of awkward standing / dancing at my wedding).

it was a small group and actually really fun. it wasn't until i noticed i wasn't thinking about my W that i started thinking about her. then all my steps were messed up.

all i could think was how awesome it would be if she was there with me. how nice it would be to go on a date with her, etc.

but the people were nice and told me about some other places they go and invited me to meet them there.

so yeah.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2593893 08/03/15 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: 714Dad

want to know what she's feeling. is she happy finally that i'm not there and she finally feels free? is she suffering or missing me at all? she's seemed upset the times i've seen her and in mediation, but she said at the beginning "i've made my decision and I need to stick with it." meaning that no matter how much it hurts she's going to go throUgh with it?


While I certainly understand these questions, there is no point in asking them. SHE doesn't even know what she's feeling right now. How can you possibly expect to understand?

Patience. Things will reveal themselves in time.

Azzork #2594055 08/03/15 09:42 PM
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"While I certainly understand these questions, there is no point in asking them. SHE doesn't even know what she's feeling right now. How can you possibly expect to understand?"


There is no point other than to know she cares or cared too.

hence the need to detach.

which is so hard.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2594058 08/03/15 10:01 PM
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You're not understanding. SHE doesn't even know what she is feeling right now. How can you expect to get a meaningful answer? She's a whirlwind of emotion; what she feels now and what she feels tomorrow could be totally different.

That's why there's no point in asking that question.

Azzork #2594072 08/03/15 11:04 PM
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WAW dont have mixed emotions. And she knows she wants out of her M.

They are not in A or an EA.

WAW are just done or finished. It can be valid or not, let's discuss it.

However they aren't addicted to an OM or as far as I can see in MLC.

Please stop treating them as if they are, this is very different.

If your W is having an A then she is a WW. She is a wayward,.

if she isnt having an EA or an A then she is WAW.

Do you know?

I strongly recommend you know the difference between a WW and a WAW.

For example I am a WAW and never in my R have I cheated, if you as my H treat me as if I have I will be angry and want you gone. I have never ever been MLC, but I am seriously not wanting to be with you.

Are you going to follow Sandi guidelines are you going to be a man only a fool would leave. Help me sort the R?

Or are you going to tell me I am wayward, go dark on me and not work on you?

If however I am in A or am MLC, that's different.

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 08/03/15 11:14 PM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2594173 08/04/15 06:16 AM
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i don't believe my W is WW. Hence my desire for more WAW info.

I am following the rules, but one of them is to go dark?

I haven't treated her like she's cheated, but i have been jealous.

i am being and staying calm and kind, validating, respectfully disagreeing on the rewritten parts of the R she brings up, and dressing nice and overall being better.

so i am working on myself, but i am not pursuing, so i can't work on the R outside of working on myself. And as the R is dissolving there's little i can do that would not be pursuit or clinging.

i'm being supportive of her decision, sounding positive even though i'm clenched up inside, not putting up roadblocks.

a lot of her comments sound MLC (i need to focus on my career, my life is a third over, ILYBNILWY, we met too young, our relationship was never healthy, etc) so i don't know what to think or do.

she took off her wedding band one day after moving back into her parent's house. ???

i feel like there are so many facets to it that it doesn't fit WW, WAS or MLC. She's incredibly beautiful and she always countered me telling her with "no one at work sees me like that." but maybe now she realizes they do. she let slip that one of the parking attendants said "wow you're so beautiful" to her, but she was using it as an example of how people said it to be fake. ugh. she's always had self esteem issues and no matter how i said stuff in these later years it never made up for the fact that i didn't say it enough in the early years.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2594178 08/04/15 07:32 AM
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Originally 34 rules also known as DB rules, from MWD, Sandi would post these as Sandi's list.

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patient on your behalf.

21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.

30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

32. Do not believe anything they say and 50% of what they do. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes

Edit- There is a series of threads that Sandi2 has written
They are linked together for easy reading.
There is also a link in the homework assignment
but just in case you missed it.
I will provide it below.

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Edit #32 from "Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see." to what it says now, Point is believe Actions over Words - Cadet

--------------------------------

This is your guide for your WAW. It is unusual for there not to be an A. Are you sure there is no A?

I do not see going dark in this list.

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 08/04/15 07:37 AM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2594413 08/04/15 08:47 PM
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I don't see going dark either. I must have added it in mentally with the LRT stuff i've been doing.

going dark stuff is here: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=42377#Post42377

i've read and reread the rules. read and reread the validation thread. read and reread detachment stuff.

at this point i have nothing to confirm an A, but the idea of an imaginary OM is disturbing. the only thing i can think is that her dad might be the OM. not in 'that' way, but in the validating, never arguing, always accepting way. i never could get to his level of calmness. at least not for long. it always seemed like there was something i did without even realizing it that would make her mad and start the whole positive feedback loop all over again.

the only real 180 i can do and keep doing is the reamining calm, validating her feelings, and when i disagree to do so calmly and not to bring up examples of her being wrong.

I'll look for 'Edz thread'. if you happen to have a link though i'd appreciate it.

i've been following the 34 recommendations almost perfectly. at least since 7/11. except #6, as i end up explaining the situation to people because they seem so shocked when i tell them. i never ask for help though. except i did ask for prayers for our family from my close familly. and i was asking for people to pray for her heart and her happiness.

she's not here though so i the examples are mostly phone based. again, it makes validating okay, but i can't make eye contact or talk to her in person. it just feels like the longer she's away the more the hardness is solidifying.

i'm GALing and staying positive when i talk with her, but my God is it hard to do sometimes.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2594428 08/04/15 09:33 PM
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Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2594431 08/04/15 09:37 PM
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The key paragraph in the going dark thread is: its what you do whilst you are waiting for your S to recover from A, MLC depression.........

It doesn't seem from your writing your W is wayward or MLC or depressed. Just not happy in her R. This is where DB comes in, DR book is about this very thing, it was written for you and with your sitch in mind.

If that's the case then Sandi guidelines are those you need, to work on you.

My 2c worth.

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 08/04/15 09:40 PM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2594491 08/05/15 12:18 AM
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V, she did say she was depressed when she left and she seemed to be down for some time in the past month(s).

"I'm not happy, i don't know if i'll be happy again." that was another of her comments.

so again, she said she was depressed and seems to have been crying a few times i've seen her since she left.

when she calls to talk (about the girls - a gift, schedule, etc.) she always seems to transition into something that she seems to want to argue about, or to convince me that something i did in the past was wrong, or that i didn't support her, or that i was bad. my IC was puzzled by this and wondered if it was her trying to assuage her guilt over the decision to divorce.

i don't know. as said, it's been a little over a month since she's been gone. so i feel like it's still okay for me to say i'm in a haze.

detaching is so hard. and that's where i am right now. it's really awful.

thanks V for the input. any morsel of wisdom is super appreciated.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2594551 08/05/15 07:32 AM
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OK, 714, when someone says they are depressed and down isnt depression. Your M was finishing, WAW left it. I think that entitles her to feel down don't you? That isn't necessarily being depressed, Just unhappy and sad.

This is from our NHS website:
Depression is more than simply feeling unhappy or fed up for a few days.
We all go through spells of feeling down, but when you're depressed you feel persistently sad for weeks or months, rather than just a few days.
Some people still think that depression is trivial and not a genuine health condition. They're wrong. Depression is a real illness with real symptoms, and it's not a sign of weakness or something you can "snap out of" by "pulling yourself together".

How to tell if you have depression

Depression affects people in different ways and can cause a wide variety of symptoms.
They range from lasting feelings of sadness and hopelessness, to losing interest in the things you used to enjoy and feeling very tearful. Many people with depression also have symptoms of anxiety.
There can be physical symptoms too, such as feeling constantly tired, sleeping badly, having no appetite or sex drive, and complaining of various aches and pains.
The severity of the symptoms can vary. At its mildest, you may simply feel persistently low in spirit, while at its most severe depression can make you feel suicidal and that life is no longer worth living.
Most people experience feelings of stress, sadness or anxiety during difficult times. A low mood may improve after a short time, rather than being a sign of depression.

----------------------------------------

I read your posts on Sandi new WW thread about your WAW reactions to you, her petulance, anger and clear screaming banshee style reaction. That's not depressive style, but railing and annoyance. I am going to suggest you read No More Mr Nice Guy and Codependent No More, (I personally like Codependence for Dummies) and see if there are any thoughts there. Consider if your boundaries are strong enough and if you are detached.

Additionally consider if WAW is abusive in some way. There are three styles of abuse patters, Reactive (in response to another's abuse of you and never initiates), situational (because of your life and current position- lasts for the stress period itself and initiates, finishes when the stress ends) and systemic (in the personality of the individual and present throughout the R and in R after R).

If your WAW is a WW then of course that's different but if she isn't, your strategy is completely different. If you treat a WAW as if she were wayward, and behave as if she were (like my WH treated me) then I believe you will drive her further away. If she is abusive (situational?) then your strategy is different yet again. As you discuss your sitch and have IC help then decide on your 180s. It is so important for you, this may be an instance where the board counsellors would be helpful in determining your way forward.

I think we need to know more and have more Intel. I will ponder some more.

In the meanwhile you can consider the abuse thread.

abuse thread

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2594552 08/05/15 07:47 AM
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Thought it would be helpful to have your posts on Sandis thread to refer to:,

first, i wasn't trying to shift the blame to 'being mad at someone else.' i was saying it more like i was stupid because i wasn't even mad at her and yet i snapped at her.

i've been in therapy over a year and just switched to a new therapist after my wife left. the difference between then and now is pretty remarkable i think, but it wasn't remarkable enough to her obviously.

as the last year progressed and i got better control and backed off, giving her alone time and stuff that she asked for, our arguments became more intense and she was the one screaming at me. she kicked a hole in the bathroom door and a bedroom door, knocking the jamb off in the process. she also screamed 'i hate you' several times during an argument because i was saying i wouldn't listen and that we needed a time to cool off. i was stonewalling, but it was the more instinctual kind where it was so heated i was just shutting down inside to make it stop. which works so well as we know.

it was really like our roles switched. i would suggest going out, and she would be mad or pouty. i would listen to her complain and not judge. she would blame me for things in the past or ask me why i did them (all stuff from my past playbook which made it doubly frustrating). she kicked in doors, slammed doors, kicked the inside of the car dashboard while driving, etc.

so yes, i had a few bouts of anger, but most of the year was good with more sadness and regret on my part than anger. i told her all the time how beautiful she as, how i loved her, etc. but she said none of it made up for the past. i am leaps and bounds better with the D3 and D6, and I always tried to make sure she had a lot of time with them. (this hurt me in the long run because i was always reluctant to do date nights or 'rob' her of time with the girls.

and she told me why she left; to let the world in; a third of her life was over and she hadn't done what she wanted to do; she wants to focus on her career; she isn't in love with me; she thinks we're better parents when we're not together; and she doesn't think she's good for me; and she's letting me free to find someone that can make me happy. and another gem was that basically i bring out the worst in her.

i hope i don't sound like i'm making excuses. i am fully aware of what i did and how it progressed to where it has.

and no, the anger stuff hasn't affected jobs. so yeah, been in therapy a year, gotten a good handle on most of it, but still had impulse issues and problems validating feelings if i felt i couldn't understand them (stupid i know).

and i didn't believe she would walk away because she had left a year earlier and come back on multiple conditions i had implemented or were ongoing. to me things were getting better with some speed bumps, but after the fact she said the couples counseling wasn't that effective for her and that every time she felt love rekindled an argument would blow it out. whereas i was falling more deeply in love with her than i had been before.

again, not trying to make excuses. not trying to say she isn't justified. not trying to shift blame. not trying to lessen my part in it.

just looking for advice and ideas.

---------------------------------------

Sandi response
Thanks for your response. It does clarify some things. Has your W ever displayed such acts of temper, as she's presently doing?

Quote:
it was really like our roles switched. i would suggest going out, and she would be mad or pouty. i would listen to her complain and not judge. she would blame me for things in the past or ask me why i did them (all stuff from my past playbook which made it doubly frustrating). she kicked in doors, slammed doors, kicked the inside of the car dashboard while driving, etc.


We have actually seen this same stitch in past stories. It is not easy for the couple to find a balance in the temperament of the MR. I feel sorry for the kids, b/c this has been their example of how to act when one is angry, so they will likely display the same type of behavior.........unless the family can receive help in learning and teaching new coping skills. I am glad you are sticking with a therapist. Is the new one helping you more than the previous therapist?

--------------------------------------

The kids didn't see much of this. It usually happened when they were asleep or were spending the night at the grandparents. they might see her crying after getting really mad at me for something, and they'd ask why mom was crying. i'd usually tell them that everyone needs to cry sometime, and a couple times i called them in and we all gave her a big hug together.

D6 has a temper, but for me the entire year has been about calming, being with her when she's upset, explaining the ideas of choosing how to feel, etc. the idea being that i could show her how to choose as i changed and became better. I did get mad a few times, when she hit her sister, etc. but it was over in a few seconds and then i tried to work through the feelings with her, to try and make it a teachable moment.

again, try not to hear excuses in these comments.

my wife hasn't displayed the physical anger before this past year (as i was in counseling and getting a grip on things). she's yelled and screamed at me in the past, but all the physical stuff is new. it's one of the reasons she left i think, saying i bring out the worst in her.

so i don't know what to do. she just grew increasingly unhappy it seems throughout the year, bringing up older and older stuff but never processing it out.

at one point she said "i guess i'm not over all these things from the past." whereas before she would always talk about forgiveness and how important it was. how feelings were your choice and one had to choose to be happy - that no one else could do it for them. at the time i couldn't comprehend it. i was so lodged in frustration and discontent.

i so want my W to go to IC, but i, as the LBH, can't bring it up. as i've said, i so want her to be happy. i feel very responsible for her unhappiness and i just want her to smile and laugh again. and of course, i want that to be with me. i'd rather see her happy though.

this [censored].

-----------------------------------------

There are a few things here, prior to the last year there were argument, heated but give and take. In that last year is ranting etc and some physical abuse. Abuse especially physical abuse should stop. Always, whenever I read about it, to me it's a red flag sign. Be safe, ensure you are safe and that your children are safe.

Get a good L and keep on seeing IC.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2594555 08/05/15 08:11 AM
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Also thought this exchange with WhyUs could be useful to you.

whyus discussion on arguments and abuse

You could also consider reading PigPens thread, there is a man who truly has grown in front of our eyes on this board. Remarkable and extraordinary. If you want other examples Uturn and Jellybean.

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 08/05/15 08:15 AM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2594782 08/05/15 08:42 PM
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Ugh. I should just give up now.

The 'snapping at my wife" that I refer to was flipping her off and telling her 'f you.' (reading your stuff vanilla makes me just want to quit and leave her alone). it was over in a second, but reading all these abuse things makes me just want to give in and pray for her to be happy.

to be clear, i had never said or done that to her before. after reading up i personally believe it was the adderall crash that aggravated it. but i obviously still did it. and now she's gone.

thinking back she did block stand in my way a lot in the past as i tried to leave rooms, despite me asking her to move, etc. most of the time it was to try and leave the space because the argument / fight was ramping up and i just wanted to escape it.

i don't know what to do anymore.

it's that same feeling - how can this be happening, etc. ugh. i need to do some work.

thanks all.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2594790 08/05/15 08:56 PM
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714, please be gentle with yourself, that isn't letting yourself off the hook, it is saying time to change and work on myself. If it was a one time thing, then that is what it is. Some M have some interactions this way.

An opportunity 714 for you to learn new strategies with W, to discuss openly with an IC and to get the IRL support you need. The boil is lanced, the worst is over, it will never be like this again. You can stand and DB. Become the best you can be for you.

You have been brave enough to post about it. To acknowledge and not to justify so in my eyes you are 100 steps ahead of my WH. Absolutely, and I think the first thing to do is say I acknowledge myself as I was but I am not that person. I can not now unknow. In your life it requires evaluation not shame. Can I recommend a Ted Talk by Breen Brown on vulnerability and change. Whether this was part of your dynamic in your R or its substance, it need never be like this again. There are ways of disagreeing in an M and they are technique.

Now is the time to know this can change, you have turned a corner, completely. And it is very inspiring. Forgive and make peace with yourself. I have stood in your shoes, I was a reactive abuser on more than one occasion and I believe I changed it, so I know it's possible to change this dynamic. Reactive means I responded but did not initiate the abuse but none the less I did so.

If you want to post I am here and the wonderful members of this board will I know contribute.

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 08/05/15 09:04 PM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2594814 08/05/15 09:33 PM
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[this is all whine, so skip it if you want, just the feels coming out].

i just can't. she is the love of my life and everything i ever wanted and i just drove her away.

my D3 said yesterday "but mom's never coming back here, that's sad." after i said that 'my' house was still their home too.

i find photos of her with my girls in the photobooth program on the computer and she's the most beautiful woman in the world. why didn't i tell her all the time. not just in the past year? i always thought it, from the moment she woke up with her hair messed up and eyes puffy. i always loved how she looked. i never once said she didn't look good. i just didn't say she was beautiful enough. ever.

she was smart, funny, loyal, honest, a great cook, a great mother, and a great friend, an selfless lover, and just amazing. and i just smothered her and was stubborn and mean. i let her cry in the bathroom alone a few years back, several times. i could have opened the door and given her a hug, made a joke, told her i loved her. anything.

i felt for a long time like i didn't deserve her, even when i was mad at her, and now i just feel it even more. and so if i'm not around maybe she will finally be happy. i just want to go for a walk and hold her hand and be 18 again and do it all over.

i hate it when these feelings come and i can't seem to control them. i want to detach and be okay with this - but i had never ever thought it would happen and so i have no way to cope with it. it is slowly getting better but it's still so raw and so horrible feeling. and the waves come in and

just crush me so often.

i just keep thinking i'll wake up and this will be some alternate reality. i don't want to think that, but it almost feels involuntary.

maybe maybe maybe i just keep thinking.

i hate memories. i hate hindsight. i hate it.


Last edited by 714Dad; 08/05/15 09:34 PM.

M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2594819 08/05/15 09:47 PM
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714

Hang in there man ... it does get better.


M: 48
W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



CaliGuy #2594843 08/05/15 11:05 PM
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I would like to share my 12 step guidance which saw me through the first couple of months of my pain. I am a Gamanon member which is for spouses of gamblers.

There are two days in every week
about which we should not worry,
Two days which should be kept free of fear and apprehension.

One of these days is YESTERDAY,
With its mistakes and cares,
Its faults and blunders,
Its aches and pains.
YESTERDAY has passed forever beyond our control.

All the money in the world cannot bring back YESTERDAY.
We cannot undo a single act we performed;
We cannot erase a single word we said.
YESTERDAY is gone.

The other day we should not worry about is TOMORROW
With its possible adversities, its burdens, its larger promise.
TOMORROW is also beyond our immediate control.

TOMORROW, the sun will rise,
Either in splendor or behind a mask of clouds,
But it will rise.
Until it does, we have no stake in TOMORROW
For it is as yet unborn.

This leaves only one day - TODAY.
Any man can fight the battles of just one day.
It is only when you and I add the burdens of those two awful eternities
- YESTERDAY and TOMORROW -
That we break down.

It is not the experience of TODAY that drives men mad.
It is remorse or bitterness for something which happened YESTERDAY
And the dread of what TOMORROW may bring.

Let us, therefore, live but ONE day at a time.

---------------------------
The above was written anonymously.

Peace and rest

V


Last edited by Vanilla; 08/05/15 11:08 PM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2595085 08/06/15 05:00 PM
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putting my wedding band back on. for me.

i am not done. i am not giving up hope.

i vowed to stay married and i will.

i will not give up on her.

i will not leave.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2595341 08/07/15 06:25 AM
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Hey CaliGuy, how long did it take for you to begin to feel the detachment?

i have no contact with my W at all right now, but i think about her every ten seconds it feels like.

I went to another dance thing tonight as a GAL 180 but i just can't stop thinking about her all the time. no other women are pretty, everyone else has something wrong with them but her. etc. etc.

i pray to accept this and for her to be happy but i break down and sob almost every time.

what worked for you to detach? did anything work really well?


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2595545 08/07/15 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: 714Dad
Hey CaliGuy, how long did it take for you to begin to feel the detachment?

i have no contact with my W at all right now, but i think about her every ten seconds it feels like.

I went to another dance thing tonight as a GAL 180 but i just can't stop thinking about her all the time. no other women are pretty, everyone else has something wrong with them but her. etc. etc.

i pray to accept this and for her to be happy but i break down and sob almost every time.

what worked for you to detach? did anything work really well?


714

Thats a good question, truthfully I do not know if I ever felt totally 'free' if you know what I mean .... and definitely it was not a "On April 4th I detached 100%" type thing. You do not just go from 0 to 100% in a day.... its a gradual process and it takes time .. and WORK. I chalked this up to 24 years together ... even apart I felt her on some level.

Slowly her spew sessions did not effect me. Her puppy dog eyes no longer melted me. I did not feel an urge to help her. I hit a point I wanted off the roller coaster and free from the pain and finally believed I deserved better, I looked at myself in the mirror and liked who was looking back, I stood tall knowing I did all I could and ... well ... sometimes that was not enough. I was ok with it all to be honest, I knew that I would be just fine without her.

That's when I feel like I detached to a point I was no longer a LBH ... I was just me. This was Nov 14, so about a year after BD for me. Some are better at this and can pull it off faster .. again .. its a gradual process, we are the ones still wanting the M and feel like hanging on to some level is the way back, I can tell you after going through this .. its not.

What worked early ... I declared my W was a science project, I would track things, what got a good response, or bad .. I tracked good and bad days along with the volume of contact and watched for trends ... even took her PMS cycle into account ... YES I did these things. But doing that removed the emotion for me ... that helped.

Later on.. I was done with the hurt, the pain, I was ready for the next chapter. In my sitch it just so happened to be Holiday season, I decided new traditions ... if this was my life so be it. I did not invite W, in fact .... I was clear she was not invited.

Its tough, but you have to be strong and act as if ... its like .. ok so you just served me a chit sandwich .. fine, not what I wanted but I will not break, I will be fine in-spite of all this ... heck not fine, I will be even better, just watch.


M: 48
W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



CaliGuy #2595565 08/07/15 09:15 PM
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^^^ good stuff from both Vanilla and CaliGuy. Let me add a couple of other thoughts. First, DB and the Board preach GAL to help us detach. GAL helps in a couple of ways. Mainly by keeping our minds off of ourselves (and our wives) and our problems, and re-focusing our thoughts on others or on whatever GAL activity we are doing. GAL not only makes us a more interesting person, but also helps us keep our minds occupied.

My other thought is that I found it easier to detach from my W by understanding that my W has already left, and she will likely never come back. Once I really grasped that the outcome of my marriage, whether the divorce goes thru or there is some sort of reconciliation, it is out of my control. And I must be healthy and happy whatever happens to our R, and whatever comes down the road.


Me-54 yrs; W: 50 yrs
4 kids- D: 22,20,19; S:15
"Trial" Divorce: 04/14 - 6/14
Separated: 06/2013- divorced 08/2016

“The strongest of all warriors are these two — Time and Patience.” War and Peace
Wet #2595568 08/07/15 09:20 PM
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X2 ^^ (well said Wet)

Thats where GAL really does help curb the 'cravings' if you will

And as Wet points out .. does not hurt we all were fired ... no sense going to work when we are not getting paid right?


M: 48
W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



CaliGuy #2596501 08/10/15 11:39 PM
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Mediator called Friday. They received the petition for dissolution of marriage.

I had the girls all weekend. GAL went to the fair and had great fun with the girls, but wished my W was there most of the time. Especially when I saw a crepes with nutella stand. that was her favorite thing in paris.

D3 told me mom was going to take grandma to paris. made my heart clench because that was in my five year plan. but i pushed through it telling myself, "i'm happy for her to be happy. i want her to be herself. i love her and she deserves to be happy."

I had a small dinner for D6 because it was her birthday. W and i agreed that the party was a joint event the next day. She saw photos and was livid saying i had a party without her. there were some presents from people who couldn't make the other party and there was a small cake that one of her friends brought for her. I should have invited W or told her about it just to reach out, but I didn't want her to get angry. She gets so mad when she comes in the house now.

Speaking of, on sunday she came over to get some linens and got really upset over the paining i'd done and the glow in the dark stars i put up in the girls room. she said something like, "how come now you can do all these things that i wanted you to do for years when we were married!?" then she got really agitated and whisper yelled "that's it we're selling this house!" i just kept quiet. she looked at me and said,"I hate you, I hate you." as she was looking through drawers and seeing the things i've changed (which i did when they were gone over a month ago). (i've even started ironing clothes because i can now).

the only reason she saw the changes in the house was because D3 and D6 were really excited to show her.

had D6s official party. it was horrible to have to be so close to my W and not be able to talk to her or touch her or be affectionate. i got into a confident mood after a while and was more assertive.

i looked at my wife at the end of the party and sincerely thanked her for planning the afternoon. I told her I was sorry and I hadn't intended to hurt her feelings by not telling her about the dinner last night.

As we left I told her how nice it was to see her smiling and laughing again. she let a smile crack her usually stone faced facade and i turned away and went home with my girls to ride scooters and play frisbee. then we watched tv and i got them into bed.

so today i just can't stop thinking about her. i need to detach and not feel so badly. but she looked so amazing. she's obviously been working out, and she's as gorgeous as ever. it's agonizing to see her and just have her be an acquaintance i know at a party.

God how badly i want to stop feeling this. It's so hard to watch all of this future slip away. All these plans in the sand, and i never noticed how the tide was coming in all this time. now they're just being washed away and there's nothing i can do to stop them.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2596506 08/10/15 11:59 PM
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Sweetheart,

If you hadn't done an unofficial party for D then D would have been disappointed no doubt.

And WW might have said "nothing for D on her birthday?" Damn if you do, damn if you don't.

In this instance you were the loving dad and D came first, birthdays are mega important on the day especially to Ds. Parties are good but real birthdays have memories.

Spot on in my book, priority sorted.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2596572 08/11/15 04:06 AM
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let me clarify. rereading my post makes me think i was drunk.

okay, so saturday was my day with the girls. i planned a small dinner with some of her friends and my family that couldn't go to the 'real' party on sunday.

i was specific to call it a dinner and not a party. one of my friends brought a tiny cake for D6 and so we did have a party of sorts. 7 kids counting my D3 and D6. Two kids only showed up at the end.

we had hot dogs and beans and watermelon. i didn't give her any of 'my' presents as i was saving them for the official sunday party.

so yeah. my W called it a party and D6 even told her it was a dinner, not a party. W was still furious and the hate in her eyes was just so hard to see.

She's walking through the house looking at how i have their art up, or how it's clean, or how there's fresh paint on things, and she is all teary. She sees the stars on the ceiling and is just livid. she acts excited with the girls but just glares at me or says, "I hate you."

and if I didn't mention it D3 was very clingy and didn't want me to leave this morning when i dropped her off. she was very upset and wanted to stay with me. it's so hard to do this.

how can somebody get to the point in a low conflict marriage of being so full of resentment and anger that they will rend apart a healthy family to 'follow their career' or 'be independent'?

how can she feel so much dislike for me to do this to our family? a family that she always seemed to want?

two healthy, amazing, beautiful smart children. coming home to dinner being done, laundry done, car maintenance done, house projects worked on, etc. etc.

i used to make us all lunch and meet her at a park with the girls so she could see them and play with them in the middle of the day.

who is this person that i thought i knew that is now so different and so alien?

still so beautiful and smart and incredible to me.

why can't i just hate her and be done with it?


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2596577 08/11/15 04:43 AM
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Honestly it all boils down to selfishness and unmet expectations. I think that's what is so hard for many of us LBS. We better ourselves & some part of us begins to "expect" that to make them come around. & then the bitterness sets in. Just like love bitterness & resentment is a choice. A choice that all WAS cling to to justify their actions.


M40 XW35
M11 T15
S9 D5
Bomb 6/3/14
Papers del 10/3/14
D final 12/5/14

I wish I could love you and make you believe it
'Cause that's all you ever wanted
From me

bravo61 #2596584 08/11/15 04:58 AM
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I mentioned it previously, but the thing that is so doubly frustrating is how for at least a year if not two she would constantly tell me that i had to choose to be happy, that no one else could do it but me.

Now she is so angry and bitter toward me. At the beginning of June we were talking about camping. Now she hates me. It's just so hard to fathom.

I was really sick in April for almost three weeks. toward the end she was sitting next to me on the floor and i was weakly joking with her trying to cheer her up as she sobbed about not wanting to lose me.

Now I feel like I have whiplash.

I agree that I deep down feel that she should come around. I'm not bitter yet I don't think. I still feel unconditional love for her. I still just want her to be happy. But I am frustrated and really hurt that she went this route at all.

As I said, a low conflict marriage, same philosophy of education and most of life, same religion, agree on ways of raising children, agree mostly politically, good physical chemistry, happy healthy children - and she wants to "focus on my career. ILYBNILWY. I want to be on my own."

i'm a broken record, but i just still can't get over it. incredulous is the only word i have for it.

two children cut away from a parent for half the year. no more teamwork. no more holidays. no more of what life is - being around other people and family and love and warmth.

why did she even marry me if she even entertained this idea?

all rhetorical. just harping. still not even an month and a half in. and seeing her yesterday was just too much.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2596586 08/11/15 05:04 AM
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Just caught up a bit on your situation 714, that's brutal. A lot of these situations don't make sense, and often times that's the worst part.

Zeus told me early on that I "may" get the truth in two or three years from now. I still don't believe it.

We've got to try to find peace within ourselves despite the stories we're being told, and the horror that we have to live through. It [censored]. It really really [censored].

I'm sorry for what you're going through and feel your pain my friend. Keep taking it one day at a time.

My heart goes out to you.

PP


M 39 W 36
T5 M3
BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day
Served 9/15
D finalized 6/17
714Dad #2596587 08/11/15 05:06 AM
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And a quick thing i've been wondering.

It seems like my 180s (being calm, validating, being more open and affirming, etc.) seem to make her angry.

i'm not going to stop doing them because i want to be calm and nice to be around.

anyone have experience with this or an idea as to what it might mean?

it's really frustrating and confusing to validate and be yelled at for 'telling me how i feel.' or staying calm and being yelled at for being calm.

just wondering.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2596595 08/11/15 05:31 AM
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Yes, I do. In my case it was because my WH wanted control in the sitch so things went his way. Once he sensed he was losing control then he seethed. He sensed I was making my own way, decisions, was growing developing then he spewed which escalated to ranting.

However being invalidating, excitable, etc made things even worse. I was button pushed for a long time, so calm cool collected firm and validating was the best option for me and I felt best with that.

You can measure different strategies by counting the spews and rants. The strategy that minimises or eliminates probably hasn't been invented yet. It is still in design and if it went into production, likely out of date.

Just do the best you can, this is WW issue. Try recording it and keep details in case it's needed.

Continue to detach, your doing just great.

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 08/11/15 05:34 AM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2596715 08/11/15 03:23 PM
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My IC mentioned this idea V.

That because I'm not fighting with her and getting into my corner if you will, she doesn't know what to do other than to get more and more upset and hope that that will bring me out to fight. then she will be justified in her decision to leave.

It's probably increasingly frustrating for her because she feels that's the way the interaction needs to take place and that even now she's having to do all the work in the relationship.

I have hope, but it's so thin and fragile. and when i see her or can't get my mind away from her it's just incapacitating.

a year of these feelings? maybe two? my God. i want the jawbone of an ass and i want to go into some "divorce is totally normal and happy tralalala" convention and go all old testament on them.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2596810 08/11/15 06:59 PM
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Just had mediation number 2.

My wife wants to go to 60/40 custody in her favor. she says i'm not in a mental state to take care of the girls.

I was really afraid of this.

she has text transcripts in which i complained a lot about how difficult it was and how tiring and how i couldn't do it by myself (meaning all the bills, housework, cars, yardwork, etc.).

God knows what else i said, and rereading them is going to be torture.

so now i'm a lot more worried about this.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2596868 08/11/15 08:45 PM
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714

You IC is pretty much right there with that assesment ... I would also toss in that being angry with you and baiting you into a conflict/fight also helps her out with her guilt. I mean who would leave a good guy? So easier to paint you up as an Ahole right?

As far as Custody .. yeah she will want that in order to benefit financially. Mine pulled that, even wanted a 75/25 till I too countered with the same 75/25 in my favor and suggested I could easily spill the beans on the 'suicide' threats .... (was just a bluff to get her to back WAY off on anything but a 50-50)

That being said ... she will use whatever she has to try and 'win' here ... she is not your friend right now. Those transcripts do not mean as much as you think ... just protect yourself ... get counsel from a L ... you can still have a L in mediation.

Regardless


M: 48
W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



CaliGuy #2596941 08/11/15 11:52 PM
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this just hit me brutally.

this idea that i was negligent towards the girls or that i would be an unfit parent. it's like the one thing that just destroys me.

my girls never even got a sunburn when i was watching them. we always had snacks at the park. they made new friends and socialized.

but she's saying she came home from work and found me drunk and the girls on the couch. she did come home once and i was drunk (from having been depressed over her) but the girls were at my parent's house. i would have never have done that otherwise. i don't even drink until 5pm.

this implication of me being a bad father, and her sitting there so coldly and looking so at ease, is just unbearable. she's picking up her phone and smiling at something. she wants to be bought out of her half of the house right away, etc.

who is this woman i married? how could me yelling at her (after a few days of being down) cause her to want to cut apart everything we have and everything we've built?

after a year of love and reconciliation. after our relationship finally becoming what it was always supposed to be?

Last edited by 714Dad; 08/11/15 11:55 PM.

M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2596952 08/12/15 12:11 AM
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714,

You need a really good L. You can attest to the truth. You can present a witness statement. Unless WW has recordings then it becomes a he said she said issue. The texts are slightly different though but you can explain. just because something is difficult doesn't make it impossible, just challenging. Something you chose to rise to for deep love of your children.

Getting drunk on your own isn't great news but we all do it, let yourself off the hook. You are human!

Kids are resilient too, judges know the baloney which is included. I think it would be great to have WW next rant recorded.

You are a loving dad and there is no neglect, it's basically tactics. It's not personal, just business. Time to get it together, seek 60:40 in your favour. Loving that Cali, (of whom V is an enormous fan).

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 08/12/15 12:17 AM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2596962 08/12/15 01:04 AM
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a modified email exchange from this afternoon.

from her:

Why is there an appt to do an application at public school. D6 is not going to Guin Foss. Can you please explain to me why you are contacting them?

We were awarded financial aid for the private School, really affordable - cheaper than even a month of afteschool care would be. If you don’t want her to attend the private school, we can discuss public school options that but public school 1 is a non-started for me.

WAW


my reply:

"I just wanted to make sure that I had backups in place if need be.

That is the day the staff is back and I was getting a pamphlet.

Think back and remember that i have always been behind you on education for the girls 100%. I have always stood up for you if others said something out of confusion or fear. I have always looked to you for guidance with the girls, and I have always respected your decisions as a great mother to our children. Whether it is taking you to that private school documentary night at college, driving to the fancy school with you, going to the mayday celebration at the Waldorf school, or volunteering at Ds preschool, I have always been supportive of you and to remember otherwise is hurtful.

I can hear your frustration because you think I am going behind your back.

I am not going behind your back.

I was simply getting a backup in place in case of the unexpected.

I like to be prepared.

-LBS


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
Vanilla #2597004 08/12/15 05:12 AM
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V, there is always the cliche of the wife unloading on the dad when he gets home with the kids having been bad etc. right?

i did that, but not too often. instead it was texts, often intense and always from a depressed point that i sent these over maybe a 20 minute period on whatever random day.

usually one spat every two weeks or so on a bad day. but as my W often pointed out they were so totally hopeless so as to be death wishes. i felt everything so intensely. and she always tried to help me and asked what she could do. i reread them and there are lots of parts where she says we need more time together, but those were always nights the girls were up too late or we fell asleep with either D, and never connected.

So these statements in text were almost like that unloading but instead of them being when she walked in the door they were once in a while during the day.

hard for her to concentrate and work when i did it.

and then i'd forget to apologize or talk about it by the evening and it wouldn't be resolved.

I said things like "i don't have what it takes to be a parent" and things like that.

i was worried it would go here and now it has.

anyone have experience with this or know how much weight they hold?

in the same texts my wife says "everyone thinks I am insane - I probably think I am but I am not insane to remember what happened."

and so it begins.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2597129 08/12/15 05:00 PM
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714

From my experience you are in a no-fault state ... which is mostly about the D. As far as the kids go I will tell you this. I have a good buddy, between his xW and himself they have a d11. During the process his XW blew a gasket and told the courts he would go into the shower while d11 was there making her feel uncomfortable .. this was then stretched into more ... molestation more type stuff ... all in a ploy to gain 100% custody. Long story short ... d11 spoke with a state provided counselor and the judge smelled and called BS and tossed it out.

I would get a L ... but feel those TMs hold little weight.


M: 48
W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



CaliGuy #2597192 08/12/15 07:44 PM
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Thank you Caliguy.

I was and still am so destroyed by her doing that. If I did one thing it was always be attentive to my girls when I had them. I rarely went on my phone like many parents (especially dads) do.

I have asked friends who have seem me at preschool and other places to write me something on my behalf as to mental state or if i seemed stressed with the girls, just so i can have them as a counter at the mediation. unfortunately that will make my W all the more angry that i asked other people about things.

This is the type of thing where character witnesses come in and play a role? if it goes to court?

*

after thinking for a while I can always go nuclear.

If i let go of the house like she wants I could propose an 80/20 in my favor, being that i was the primary caregiver. Then we would inevitably go to court and it would take a long time and cost a lot and in the end it would probably still be 50/50. i could just move back in with my parents and live off child and spousal support. then i could raise the girls entirely and not have to work (though i'd like to) and fix up my parents house in the meantime.

in CC my wife was asked for something positive she admired or was different about me. she struggled and then came up with the idea that in a crisis situation i can somehow stay calm and focused and not be worried - that i can see options and focus down. she used a backpacking trip when forest fires started burning nearby and we had to make it out of Big Pine canyon.

and even though i never want to, i can cut away huge pieces of my life to fit through narrow doorways.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2597283 08/12/15 11:10 PM
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Listen to your L and really hear what you are told.

You can never change the past, but you can change the way you look at it.
So.....

Can you list for me 10 ways in which you are a terrific dad?

Let me give you a start

1. I am the primary caregiver and I put my girls first......
2. I love my girls and am fighting hard to be with them every day I can..........
3. I have the skills to......
4. I tell great stories...........

Please can you state positive things as if you did these things today.

V


Last edited by Vanilla; 08/12/15 11:12 PM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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1. I always listen to my girls and address their concerns (when it's not a tantrum).

2. I stay calm as they spiral out of control, telling them I love them and that I am here for them.

3. I keep my promises to them, and if I can't, i talk to them about why and make a compromise.

4. I GAL'd with them and went to the fair. Seeing them laugh was amazing.

5. I have them all vaccinated.

6. I let them run naked in the back yard if they want to.

7. I am finally making games out of work and they are accepting them (something i could never do and that my W did well).

8. I love their mother. (it's a Leo Buscaglia thing).

9. I am working every day to be more calm and centered so that I can help them with the undulation of emotions.

10. I love them unconditionally.

11. I am writing an entire fictional children's novel based on them.

12. I am being strong and positive in front of their mother, hearing her and validating her feelings no matter how angry she gets. I am not giving up hope.

13. I am fighting to keep the house they came home to as infants so that they have someplace familiar and solid to hold onto.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
714Dad #2597305 08/13/15 12:06 AM
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I love this list, it's absolutely authentically you. It's how you really feel about your girls.

Reread this list over, perhaps print it, laminate it, distribute it to everyone who knows you. You have the right to be proud that's fabulous fatherhood.

Now 714, if you put this dad with these attributes against a few wobbles in the past, how does that measure up?

It's obvious, isn't it? Everything else is just background noise.

There is just so much love pouring through these web posts today on your thread, my iPad is glowing.

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 08/13/15 12:13 AM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2597316 08/13/15 12:46 AM
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714Dad,

Your a good man. I love that list. I can feel your passion in it. Keep on keepin on.


Me: 30's W: 30's M: 12yrs
EA: Started 3/2015
MC Started: 4/2015
She moved out and served 6/2015
PA: Confirmed 10/5/2015
2 young kids

"If you do not stand for something you will fall for anything."
WhyUs #2599084 08/18/15 03:48 PM
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Very overwhelmed with all of this now.

Served on August 11.

Just took girls on vacation. Got back, W had moved her stuff out plus the computer so now I'm trying to work at my parent's.

I'm so tired of this right now. Really.

I am trying to do some work but I have to use my parent's computer and it can't open the file, etc.

All my other stuff was on the computer including lists and ideas, etc. Now I have to see if I can go and email them to myself. I made a full backup before i left so i have that, but i need a faster computer to open it.

Talking to a new lawyer tomorrow, scared about custody issues, the house appraised for more than I thought it would so now that has increased my 'buy out' price to something really high.

no work prospects yet. W still looks happy and amazing.

I sent her a postcard from D6 and D3 while on vacation. I wrote what they wanted me to say.

She picked them up last night after getting upset over the issue of me having had two weekends with them and she now wanting two weekends. When they left I was waving at my girls and smiling.

I am making more eye contact with W, but i don't know if this is something I want to do (for DR) or should do. I saw her tell the girls to wave to me as they drove off and I looked right at W. She looked at me for a second and then looked away. I was smiling and projecting confidence as I waved.

Is that pursuit? is that good or bad? I've seen no changes otherwise and all of the images i post online she 'likes' unless they have a photo of me in them. then it is obvious she avoids 'liking' those.

tired. afraid. can't really think. missing everything. i can't stand this.


M36,W34
T18 years
M9 years
D3,D6
W "doesn't want to be married anymore"6/14/15
ILYBNILWY6/2015
W moves to parents house 6/30/15
W removes wedding band 7/3/15
My ring back on 8/8/15
Served 8/11/2015.
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