Hello

[714Dad]

(I would respond to her with "Look, this is NOT what I wanted, or a place I ever dreamed we'd end up. But I realize now that I'll be okay regardless of what happens, and I'm trying to use this time to work on some things for myself and those have been good for me, and are helping my outlook."

Or something similar.

Starsky)


Thanks for telling me now! why couldn't you have channeled my mind and taken over like professor x? then i could have said the right thing!

all i said was, "I can only be who I am now. I cannot change the past, but I can be who I want to be going forward."

pfft!

[Starsky309]

(I would respond to her with "Look, this is NOT what I wanted, or a place I ever dreamed we'd end up. But I realize now that I'll be okay regardless of what happens, and I'm trying to use this time to work on some things for myself and those have been good for me, and are helping my outlook."

Or something similar.

Starsky)


Thanks for telling me now! why couldn't you have channeled my mind and taken over like professor x? then i could have said the right thing!

all i said was, "I can only be who I am now. I cannot change the past, but I can be who I want to be going forward."

pfft!

Well that's a pretty good answer too! And good job at the mediator's, under trying circumstances. You're doing well!!



Starsky

[Train]

How's it goin', 714?

[714Dad]

Well...

Tuesday was my day to get the girls. (We're on a 2-2-3 custody arrangement).

My wife mentioned that my D6 wanted to something for her birthday with her horse riding instructor... I said I was taking them to San Francisco that weekend and that because I would be gone my three days of the weekend and not need to 'borrow' one of her days I didn't need to 'ask' her.

She, for lack of a better word, freaked out.

She ended up calling and i tried my best and remained calm sounding, but my mouth dried out and my heart was racing. She really was yelling at me, saying that she 'agreed to my custody suggestion (even though the mediator endorsed it fully and I originally got the suggestion from a lawyer) because she doesn't want to take the girls away from me..." "But I will go to court and get more custody if you continue to treat me this way."

the phone disconnected once, and i hung up once trying to enforce boundaries, but she called back and that's when she was yelling about court.

by the end i was still calm sounding, even though i had stood up for my side and not caved. i finally redirected (or gave in i guess) when she said that D6 had told her on sunday that she wanted the party. I told my W that she could have just told me that. I went on "threatening going to court is counterproductive and doesn't solve anything for us. you just need to communicate with me and tell me what is going on. you called me sunday night at 11:30 to ask about the mediator meeting - you could have told me then."

she responded, "I've been busy. I get home, eat dinner, and get the girls ready for bed and then don't get a chance by myself until 11:00pm sometimes. Last night they both had really bad growing pains and I didn't get them to sleep till really late."

I replied, trying to validate, "I'm sorry you had such a hard time getting them to sleep."

She was silent.

I went on, "I'm not trying to upset you, I'm not trying to fight. I am being honest with you and giving you what you've said you want."

Then I inadvertently and stupidly brought up some past R stuff and she disagreed with me. I said I didn't want to see her upset, that I hated seeing her upset and that I just wanted to see her smile or laugh or be happy. (ugh).

she asked if I had the girls and I said no. We'd been 'talking' for an hour, she blamed me for making her take sick time to stay on the phone and brought up again how i had neglected her when our D6 was a baby. "You never just laid down with us and was present, you we're working on the house or the yard. you can't make up for that."

I should have said. "you're right, I wasn't present enough" but I said, "well I'm sorry you remember that. if you look at our photos i think you'll see that i was there and that we did spend time together." She of course replied, "a photo is just a moment, it isn't indicative of time spent - it's just one second."

I just reiterated that I can only be who i am now and what I want to be going forward.

I had an appointment at a group interview for a job, so I just said "I have an appt. at 10am, so I need to go, goodbye" and after she said something I hung up.

I got D6 and D3 from my in-laws, raced to my parents, dropped them off, then went to the interviews which lasted till 2pm.

They went well, but it wasn't for the job i was expecting and I was just honest with them saying i wanted something in sales rather than admin / customer relations.

i went home, felt stupid, prayed, saw my girls, then my parents took me and D6 and D3 out to eat.

Thursday I played with D3 and D6, went to a neighborhood park, then I had my brother and his wife and kids over to eat, then my niece spent the night.

we had an afternoon thunderstorm which is super rare here and they played in the rain.

I gave them a bath, got them ready, and let them watch tv while i did dishes and then took my own shower. Then we read a bit, then i took the older two upstairs, then laid with D3 till she was asleep. Then I got up and finished DR.

I feel really hopeless right now.

I know exactly how she felt all those years when I said I couldn't forgive her for the things she'd done in the past. Now I'm having to swallow my own medicine and it's so, so horrible. But I was here when I complained, whereas she was able to leave and seemingly not look back.

I want to ask how she can feel this or hold onto those things, but it would be nothing but hypocrisy on my part.

I just want to hold her hand or to see her smile at me. it just hurts and hurt and hurts. and when i try to pray to accept this and for strength and to be better i just break down and sob and beg that my family not be split up, that she will feel some love, that her memory will be unclouded, that her heart will soften.

but the hopelessness is so pervasive. I read DR and feel content, "oh it's not so bad, it can work" but then i don't see her or hear from her at all - no way to be different around her. and I feel it all vaporizing around me.

and now it's a 3 day weekend of not having the girls and feeling alone. I want to go kayaking tomorrow, but it will be alone.

if i had a job i'd be occupied, but i don't, and my W on tuesday during her diatribe talked about how "I'm spending her money" and all that. that was always an insecurity for me as a stay at home dad, and she always said it was our money or our families money. but now that language is changed.

any input at all for from anyone? sound familiar, any advice, any ideas? is her anger a sign that she's still engaged in the R or that she just hates me?

i'm really not doing well with this.

every time i look out i hope to see her coming down the driveway and then coming in and us talking about how to move forward. detaching is so hard.

i told my girls they were super lucky because tonight they get to see the smartest and most beautiful woman in the world. if they tell her that it'll be like i'm pursuing, but how else can i show my girls what a husband is supposed to think of his wife? i want them to know that that's how someone should feel about them. so i say it and if they tell her she'll probably have some ultra-neutral response to them.

God this is so hard. So lonely. So devastating.

any input from anyone?

[Shuley]

All I can say 714 Dad is you are not alone. I read your story and it is as if I am reading my own. Some things just don't make sense. How can someone leave me when I am such a loving husband?

It may sound hypocritical since I am thinking about this every minute of every day, but focus on your girls. Try best to detach. Exercise seems to help me a lot. I'm down 25+ lbs and 10-15 lbs from my ideal weight.

I'm still skeptical of this forum, to be honest. I wonder how much of it is to sell expensive phone counseling. However, I agree that detaching for you and the sake of the R is best.

[CaliGuy]

I am just going to chop up your post to the points I want to touch on

My wife mentioned that my D6 wanted to something for her birthday with her horse riding instructor... I said I was taking them to San Francisco that weekend and that because I would be gone my three days of the weekend and not need to 'borrow' one of her days I didn't need to 'ask' her.

She, for lack of a better word, freaked out.

Reading up on you... I can relate to you and your W. My W was also the primary bread winner, I worked but for several years my job was more about time/time off and doing the things around the house rather than to contract it out. Put that on paper and I felt my worth was not measurable ... over time I do think my W started resenting me a bit for that.

Your W freaking out here ... thats control. Just accept that for what it is .. she is wanting this all to go her way, you will need to rebuild yourself and start earning some respect from her slowly and gradually (Planting this seed in you... its important)

She ended up calling and i tried my best and remained calm sounding, but my mouth dried out and my heart was racing. She really was yelling at me, saying that she 'agreed to my custody suggestion (even though the mediator endorsed it fully and I originally got the suggestion from a lawyer) because she doesn't want to take the girls away from me..." "But I will go to court and get more custody if you continue to treat me this way."

the phone disconnected once, and i hung up once trying to enforce boundaries, but she called back and that's when she was yelling about court.

by the end i was still calm sounding, even though i had stood up for my side and not caved. i finally redirected (or gave in i guess) when she said that D6 had told her on sunday that she wanted the party. I told my W that she could have just told me that. I went on "threatening going to court is counterproductive and doesn't solve anything for us. you just need to communicate with me and tell me what is going on. you called me sunday night at 11:30 to ask about the mediator meeting - you could have told me then."

she responded, "I've been busy. I get home, eat dinner, and get the girls ready for bed and then don't get a chance by myself until 11:00pm sometimes. Last night they both had really bad growing pains and I didn't get them to sleep till really late."

I replied, trying to validate, "I'm sorry you had such a hard time getting them to sleep."

She was silent.

I went on, "I'm not trying to upset you, I'm not trying to fight. I am being honest with you and giving you what you've said you want."

Then I inadvertently and stupidly brought up some past R stuff and she disagreed with me. I said I didn't want to see her upset, that I hated seeing her upset and that I just wanted to see her smile or laugh or be happy. (ugh).

Part of that 'respect' thing. Look up Wonkas Boundary post. You will need to start putting some boundaries in place, things you just will no longer tolerate, her flipping out, treating you badly, spew, all that ... time to stand up for yourself here a little. Validating is great, but not when its in a reaction manner to appease them while they are spewing venom your way. They are not really receptive at that point anyways right? Just calmly let her know you can continue the discussion when you both can be calm and civil .... and make sure YOU are the one ending all conversations.

she asked if I had the girls and I said no. We'd been 'talking' for an hour, she blamed me for making her take sick time to stay on the phone and brought up again how i had neglected her when our D6 was a baby. "You never just laid down with us and was present, you we're working on the house or the yard. you can't make up for that."

I should have said. "you're right, I wasn't present enough""I would do alot of things differently in retrospect" but I said, "well I'm sorry you remember that. if you look at our photos i think you'll see that i was there and that we did spend time together." She of course replied, "a photo is just a moment, it isn't indicative of time spent - it's just one second."

Well you weren't sitting on your a$$ either ... Thing is 714 the WW will very often re-write your history, they do this in their minds, demonize you, in order to justify them leaving, their actions, shed their own guilt. Truth is this was not an over night process, they latch on to every bad memory, negative issue and focus solely on that forgetting all the good. Its the Baseball term, catch 999 fly balls but you will be remembered for that one you drop.

I just reiterated that I can only be who i am now and what I want to be going forward.This is very good

if i had a job i'd be occupied, but i don't, and my W on tuesday during her diatribe talked about how "I'm spending her money" and all that. that was always an insecurity for me as a stay at home dad, and she always said it was our money or our families money. but now that language is changed.

Own your past, learn from it. Keep the "I'd do many things differently if I could, but I have been working on myself and will continue to do so, thus far I am very please with the progress I have made"

any input at all for from anyone? sound familiar, any advice, any ideas? is her anger a sign that she's still engaged in the R or that she just hates me?

i'm really not doing well with this.

every time i look out i hope to see her coming down the driveway and then coming in and us talking about how to move forward. detaching is so hard.

i told my girls they were super lucky because tonight they get to see the smartest and most beautiful woman in the world. if they tell her that it'll be like i'm pursuing, but how else can i show my girls what a husband is supposed to think of his wife? i want them to know that that's how someone should feel about them. so i say it and if they tell her she'll probably have some ultra-neutral response to them.

God this is so hard. So lonely. So devastating.

any input from anyone?

Your W is angry at the moment. Read up on Sandis WW thread .. it really gives some solid insight on where they are. Her anger being a sign .... just look at it as something she needs to process, she has it that stage in the M where the current M has not lived up to her expectations and she is furious about it ... not fair to you as that fantasy has been fed since she was a little girl and dreamed of Mr Right.

Do not count on that movie type entrance from her ... No Expectations. I had a fit with detaching too .. but got to the point the pain was worse than ripping off that duct tape.

As far as your girls ... you can show them you are a kind loving man, an excellent father, I would not build up your W that way ... do not chop her down either. Kids are seriously smart and learn more by observing than what we say, in these cases .. ACTIONS speak far louder than words. Do not try to plant seeds in your kids and think they are going to deliver plants to your W, do not use them this way (Your W will see it as a tactic and it will backfire) ... be the best father you can

This is by far the hardest thing I have ever done, I would not wish my last 2 years on anyone .... I have the G Clooney greys to prove it where I had none when this all started.

Small steps, small slow and steady changes in you ... allow yourself time. All the changes you make you r W will think of them just as a trick to get her back .... she will not trust them .. but over time they stick, over time she will learn to accept them, as she starts seeing things clearer through the fog she is in.

Hang in there.

[714Dad]

Thank you Cali.

I feel very superficial in things. like maybe all these attempts are fake.

Do you just push through those thoughts? GALing = i'm going to take my kayak down to the back bay tomorrow and paddle it for the first time since before my first daughter was born. i might go out past the jetty even.

anyway i use instagram and i don't look at anything else for fear of seeing stuff my W is doing. so is my posting there, of me making the girls pancakes, cooking dinner - it's all the stuff i already used to do. i'm just thinking i'm being more spontaneous with it.

so it's not for me truly and i'm hoping she's seeing it. as mentioned before she said it looks like i'm happier than i've ever been. that just cuts so deep.

should i comment on her posts with positives? like, "so good to see you with old friends" (even though seeing that makes me take a lorazapam and drink a beer at 3pm).

going dark seems impossible with two small children. it also seems like she really wont notice me anyway because her dad and mom are there to help with things. she wont miss me running to cvs at 11:30pm because her dad will, etc. or sitting up and singing to and rocking a feverish baby, because her dad will.

i know i can get other women, a big problem that my wife felt betrayed by was a 21 year old coming on to me when i went back to CSUF to get a BA (I was 32 or 33). I also had someone once leave a note on my bike telling me i was handsome and leaving a phone number. i thought it was funny and told my W, she said
"it must be a joke from one of your students" which made me feel crappy. she didn't mean it like that but it came across.

and all i've done for the past year is tell her how amazing she looks, but my criticizing her feet once in 1999 or something is still brought up. she just cannot forgive me. all of these things that she said were gone have come crashing back in and smothered me.

she says she feels like she spent out entire relationship trying to reassure me that i looked good or attractive. i didn't need compliments, i just cant deal with them well.

anyway, the point being, i could find someone new, but i dont want someone new. i want that big scar on her thigh, i want her hands, i want that cesarean scar where D6 came out, i want her legs, feet, hips, shoulders... i just want everything about her. so maybe it is all physical.

i need to go load my kayak.

thank you everyone for the help.

[714Dad]

Oh, and when I said things like, "I can hear how frustrated you are" and stuff like that she just yelled, "stop telling me what i'm feeling, you don't control me!

just wanted to add that. i'd appreciate any simple gems for validating feelings that have worked for others.

thanks.

[CaliGuy]

Thank you Cali.

I feel very superficial in things. like maybe all these attempts are fake.

Do you just push through those thoughts? GALing = i'm going to take my kayak down to the back bay tomorrow and paddle it for the first time since before my first daughter was born. i might go out past the jetty even.

Yeah .. its all you can do. Sometimes give yourself a set time .. 5-10 minutes to think about it .. set the alarm on your phone .. when it goes off .. you stop and do something ... some people think of a STOP sign .. that never worked for me, I found a set time to think then move on.

anyway i use instagram and i don't look at anything else for fear of seeing stuff my W is doing. so is my posting there, of me making the girls pancakes, cooking dinner - it's all the stuff i already used to do. i'm just thinking i'm being more spontaneous with it.

so it's not for me truly and i'm hoping she's seeing it. as mentioned before she said it looks like i'm happier than i've ever been. that just cuts so deep.

If its NOT FOR YOU ... do not do it. Hoping she sees it ... expectations ... stay out of that sandbox.

As far as her saying you look happier .. well, here is the deal, it might hurt but this is not your choice, you are doing the best you can under the circumstances and she is simply using that to justify her actions.

should i comment on her posts with positives? like, "so good to see you with old friends" (even though seeing that makes me take a lorazapam and drink a beer at 3pm).

Nope ... Clint Eastwood would not do that .. he would slam a shot and go about his day. I think people do not understand commenting and 'liking' posts ... its pursuing. Don't do it.

going dark seems impossible with two small children. it also seems like she really wont notice me anyway because her dad and mom are there to help with things. she wont miss me running to cvs at 11:30pm because her dad will, etc. or sitting up and singing to and rocking a feverish baby, because her dad will.

I agree ... dark with kids... is impossible. Go dim. Only be available when its about the kids, it takes time. Be the best Dad you can be .. from what I can tell you are right on point there, You are the only father they will know, and being a damn good one is attractive not just to her but to others .. keep playing that record.
As far as her having 'Papa' to go to CVS ... its not tthe Errand-Boy she is going to miss ... sure she is home where mommy and daddy can console her, but guess what? Living with parents at this age ... no thanks. Its not what she wanted, the longer she is there she will remember why she left.

i know i can get other women, a big problem that my wife felt betrayed by was a 21 year old coming on to me when i went back to CSUF to get a BA (I was 32 or 33). I also had someone once leave a note on my bike telling me i was handsome and leaving a phone number. i thought it was funny and told my W, she said
"it must be a joke from one of your students" which made me feel crappy. she didn't mean it like that but it came across.

and all i've done for the past year is tell her how amazing she looks, but my criticizing her feet once in 1999 or something is still brought up. she just cannot forgive me. all of these things that she said were gone have come crashing back in and smothered me.

she says she feels like she spent out entire relationship trying to reassure me that i looked good or attractive. i didn't need compliments, i just cant deal with them well.

LMAO ... I always told my W her feet were ugly ... she is gorgeous but I felt the need to bring her down to earth and that was the one thing I could find .... she is STILL bugged by that comment I made what ... 20 years ago.
I had similar .. I DJ'd 3 nights a week, and yeah ... drunk chicks dig the DJ and I had plenty TM me, FB me ... all that. It was an issue I did not give enough attention to and made my W feel less that ... learn from that. But right now .... there is no fixing those issues in the old M till your W commits to working on a new one with you.
Might be a time you validate, admit your part in the old M ... but thats R talk .. 1st Rule of fight club is there is no fight club ... 2nd rule ... well you know it .. 3rd rule we do not bring up R talk.

anyway, the point being, i could find someone new, but i dont want someone new. i want that big scar on her thigh, i want her hands, i want that cesarean scar where D6 came out, i want her legs, feet, hips, shoulders... i just want everything about her. so maybe it is all physical.

i need to go load my kayak.

thank you everyone for the help.

I was the same .. and it is tough not wanting what we can not have isnt it? See that? Thats part of this ... your W has to start wanting what she can not have, she must begin to chase you .... but for her to do that she has to respect you first ... alot of WW and WAW lost respect for the LBH, most likely because he lost himself.

Even now, my W and I are working on things ... out of nowhere this morning I got a taste of the old W, the old M .. I quickly put a stop to that, stated a boundary that I placed long ago ... W was shocked .. used the spew as a defense tactic so I left. I later got a full apology and she admitted she did not know where it came from. I can tell you ... she is respecting that I have become more of a man around the house, standing up for myself even with small things.

Start earning that lost respect back ... to do this you have to rediscover 714Dad ... you do this by grabbing that kayak and rowing the crap out of it ... get out there and enjoy the day.

[CaliGuy]

Oh, and when I said things like, "I can hear how frustrated you are" and stuff like that she just yelled, "stop telling me what i'm feeling, you don't control me!

just wanted to add that. i'd appreciate any simple gems for validating feelings that have worked for others.

thanks.

Yeah .. she is angry, you did not tell her how she was feeling. Rather than "I can hear how frustrated you are" Opt for "I'm sorry you feel that way" or " That must be very frustrating" ... you can even repeat back what they said as a question, someone here a while back suggested that and it really opens a door for them to share more ... consider it Intel Recon.

My W after a bit became irritated with my "I am sorry you feel that way" line so I switched it slightly. Wonka has that validation cheat sheet and there are several options ... read up on them as you have to pull that stuff out on the fly and its tricky when you are just starting out.

Remember ... Feelings are feelings, they are not right or wrong, who she feels is just that. Just knowing that made me realize it was her and HER feelings ... helped me detach from them a bit.