So Starsky W asked me how do I feel and I told her that I have an issue with the continued secrecy and that I am unwilling to brush the A under the rug like she wants to. If it is no big deal you should let me see your other email account and give me access.
Told me she was too busy and doesn't want an A - told her it doesn't take much time to text back and forth. Not surprising the conversation did not last too long. Told her that I am unwilling to live like BFF forever.
I just don't get it, I stop paying attention or not taking calls and she goes ballistic - I am detaching. You would think she would be relieved if I did not call her or shower her with attention.
This weekend to myself I would like to just turn off the phone and not look at it again until Monday. Honestly I will likely be in an area of the state with little cell coverage so this is the closes thing to not having a phone.
I just don't get it, I stop paying attention or not taking calls and she goes ballistic - I am detaching. You would think she would be relieved if I did not call her or shower her with attention.
It's pretty typical for a wayward wife to want to keep her husband as her "Plan B" in case things don't work out with her OM1. Sometimes she'll turn to an OM2 and sometimes she'll begrudgingly come back to the marriage, but most women especially like to have some options.
S13 was upset when I got home after work. Doesn't like mom and dad having a weekend alone without the kids. I asked my W to send him a pic and I would do the same to calm his nerves. D9 and dog both decided to puke tonight before bed.
I need to stay detached from W. When I does this she always insists that she will not do this with me and that she could find a place to stay. Should I call her bluff on this? For example early today
She has stated this morning I don't do the things I used to do like making coffee doing all the wash etc. I told her that this changed when I learned about the OM and that I am a one man one woman guy. That I intend not to be a door mat to anyone.
She told me she was getting tired of the accusations and I told her I have been tired of the secrecy. Not a real good morning or night.
She told me she was getting tired of the accusations and I told her I have been tired of the secrecy. Not a real good morning or night.
"(Wife), when you aren't honest and transparent with me, I can only assume you are either still in contact with another man or that you want to be able to be. That doesn't work for me, and I can't be much clearer than that, so I guess it's up to you what you want to do about it. I'm going to live my life."
She told me she was getting tired of the accusations and I told her I have been tired of the secrecy. Not a real good morning or night.
"(Wife), when you aren't honest and transparent with me, I can only assume you are either still in contact with another man or that you want to be able to be. That doesn't work for me, and I can't be much clearer than that, so I guess it's up to you what you want to do about it. I'm going to live my life."
This is good... going to have to remember that if my H ever comes around to caring what I do.
After I found out about the affair my H was having, he wouldn't give up his devices or accounts for me to view. I didn't ask but he didn't offer. Then 2 weeks later I discover that he is still carrying on the affair. At that point, I think he got nervous I would leave & he ended it and gave me access to everything. He then also offered to go to counseling. However, after our most recent damaging event, he has taken it all back & does a lot of concealing what he is typing on his phone. So I wonder what is going on with him.
So I can understand how it is hard to not think that something is going on when they are not completely open. I am stuck in the very same spot.
T: 14 M: 12 D: 9 S: 6 BD: 2/18/15 (H affair) Working on marriage: 3/12/15-6/11/15 Broken Trust (my error): 6/11/15 H ring off: 7/6/15; Comm w/ OW confirmed 7/13/15 H wants to work on fixing things: 7/21/15
When they do that, you should call them out on it, saying plainly that YOU will be taking their secrecy and lack of transparency as an indication that they are still in contact, or want to be able to be if they desire, and you will be proceeding with your own decision-making accordingly.
When they do that, you should call them out on it, saying plainly that YOU will be taking their secrecy and lack of transparency as an indication that they are still in contact, or want to be able to be if they desire, and you will be proceeding with your own decision-making accordingly.
Starsky
Makes total sense. But figuring out what that decision-making part is... very difficult.
T: 14 M: 12 D: 9 S: 6 BD: 2/18/15 (H affair) Working on marriage: 3/12/15-6/11/15 Broken Trust (my error): 6/11/15 H ring off: 7/6/15; Comm w/ OW confirmed 7/13/15 H wants to work on fixing things: 7/21/15
When they do that, you should call them out on it, saying plainly that YOU will be taking their secrecy and lack of transparency as an indication that they are still in contact, or want to be able to be if they desire, and you will be proceeding with your own decision-making accordingly.
Starsky
Makes total sense. But figuring out what that decision-making part is... very difficult.
Very true. But just like in geopolitics, it's often more important for your adversary to know that "all options are on the table," than it is for you yourself to really have to know exactly WHICH option you're going to take, or how or when. Us humans really are path-of-least-resistance creatures (especially us men!); when we know that you're not going anywhere, and aren't going to require of us any painful change, we tend to continue on our same path -- even when it's a destructive one.
In all my years here, I've never seen a single successful affair-bust or divorce-bust where the wayward spouse didn't first feel a credible fear of losing the betrayed spouse.
Very true. But just like in geopolitics, it's often more important for your adversary to know that "all options are on the table," than it is for you yourself to really have to know exactly WHICH option you're going to take, or how or when. Us humans really are path-of-least-resistance creatures (especially us men!); when we know that you're not going anywhere, and aren't going to require of us any painful change, we tend to continue on our same path -- even when it's a destructive one.
In all my years here, I've never seen a single successful affair-bust or divorce-bust where the wayward spouse didn't first feel a credible fear of losing the betrayed spouse.
Starsky
Ah.... very wise words. Definitely going to be thinking this over seriously. I am not surprised to hear that about a wayward spouse needing to feel that fear. I know my spouse does not have this fear right now... I have exercised extreme patience in waiting for him to come around & get over his anger. He is in no rush to make any kind of changes to what he is currently doing. I am tiring of this dynamic.
T: 14 M: 12 D: 9 S: 6 BD: 2/18/15 (H affair) Working on marriage: 3/12/15-6/11/15 Broken Trust (my error): 6/11/15 H ring off: 7/6/15; Comm w/ OW confirmed 7/13/15 H wants to work on fixing things: 7/21/15
HopeOK I do feel for you and again Starsky much good advice. This last weekend W was going to Chicago with married girlfriends the kids were to be with grandma and I was going fishing with friends.
Well D9 got sick on Wednesday and S13 got sick on Friday morning. If I skipped my trip we would be out the cost of bait. If she missed her trip we would be out the hotel room. Since it was W's birthday on Saturday I cancelled my trip.
I don't think that my S13 made it to the toilet once. As you may imagine it was not a real good weekend. I did not call my W but did talk to her when my S13 called her and I wished her a Happy Birthday.
W came home on Sunday at noon at said that she missed all of us and gave me a hug a kiss. We then took my D9 to a movie and then had SIL for a cookout and birthday cake for W. It was a nice night.
W knew that I had some business by her hospital and asked if I would bring her lunch. Since we were getting along I agreed and it was nice the first time we had been on a date in over a year. W then came home and we the went to work out. She told me that she was looking forward to hanging out with her friends in another 4-5 weeks.
I then mumbled that I would be looking forward to that if I did not have to deal with sick kids. W then said I was smothering her and I responded that it must be hard to keep all the guys she is with straight. When we got home WWIII started.
We told me that if my S13 was not autistic she would have been gone a long time ago and that I know how she feels about our R and me. Tonight's workout was intense so the fight was interrupted by me puking.
Told her that I was not mad about the weekend away but I was beat this weekend and I really did not want to hear about future plans. Shen the stated the following:
1. For 14 years we have been putting the kids first and they are getting older and do not need us to exclusively watching them and that it is good for them to be with our families;
2. That it has been bottling up in her that she does not get a break and that she is more than a wife/mom;
3. That is good for both of us to get away to do things without each other and the kids and that I should not be looking at this like it is a punishment;
4. That it makes her a better mom/wife to get some alone time;
5. That she is not used to me spending time with her like I have been.
W then said that this is not a punishment and that it helped her relax and she has been much more relaxed.
She then told me that I she has not and has no intentions of having an affair. I the stated that since she was taking a part time job she could have time to have an A. She then reponded need that her first priority was to be home for the kids and be the mom that she has been wanting to be for months now.
I then validated what she said and told her that her wanting time to herself was understandable but it kind of caught me off guard.
As you can see there are ton of mixed messages in this. With the exception of tonight this was the first fight we had in over a month. Topics that in the past would have started a fight (money) our now being discussed with us even raising our voices.
I shortly went too bed after I wrote the above. I was in a bad mood and should not have let my emotions get the better of me when we talked earlier. I should have just smiled and said it will be nice to have some time to hang out with friends.
Before I suspected the EA with the OM, I would not care if W hung with friends and never played 20 questions with her. It was good until I discovered messages with a OM she was seeing at her AA meetings. She has not been back to that group in over 6 weeks and from what I can tell has not seen in him in just that long.
On one hand she tells me she wants to leave and the very next sentence is telling my how she wants to be better a mom/wife. It starts to hurt my head when I try to analyze it. I usually try to take it one day at a time and I am sorry that I am rambling.
I have reached out to other people whose opinions I value and they don't think some time apart is a bad thing. The overall theme I received was that it made the M better.
Regarding just myself I think that I handled the last weekend well without needing or asking the W for assistance with the kids. I tried to make the best of bad weekend for the kids and did not get flustered or frustrated when the W got home. I did not get mad that my plans had changed and was only concerned that my S13 was feeling better.
I think the spot of not really knowing if something is going on & having them not commit 100% to working on the relationship makes things incredibly difficult. It is a mystery what is motivating the things they say. I feel for you- in a similar spot.
Starsky- I could use some advice from you re my situation if you have time. You seem to have a lot of expertise in the area of cheating.
T: 14 M: 12 D: 9 S: 6 BD: 2/18/15 (H affair) Working on marriage: 3/12/15-6/11/15 Broken Trust (my error): 6/11/15 H ring off: 7/6/15; Comm w/ OW confirmed 7/13/15 H wants to work on fixing things: 7/21/15
Sad, you seem to be very passive-aggressive. You either supplicate your wife, giving her everything she wants and apologizing to her even when you've done nothing wrong, or you confront her with unproven allegations and get so angry that you're puking??
Whoa. You need to get a grip (have you talked to your dr. about getting on a good everyday anti-anxiety/anti-depressant? They were a huge help to me in my sitch, and will "even you out.")
DBing is all about plowing that MIDDLE ground, between angry accusations and doormat behavior. You are careening wildly from one extreme to another, and seem to be flying without a plan still. EXECUTING a plan is difficult enough, but to be this far along and not even HAVE one is troubling to me.
btw, do you have proof that your wife was with married female friends in Chicago? She is acting extremely wayward, and I suspect she's either with a OM or is actively pursuing one.
On one hand she tells me she wants to leave and the very next sentence is telling my how she wants to be better a mom/wife. It starts to hurt my head when I try to analyze it.
Have you read Sandi's threads for husbands of wayward wives? There is nothing in your wife's behavior that is at all confusing when you view it in the context of WAYWARDNESS ("wayward" meaning she's either with an OM, or is actively trying to pursue one, and has no interest in working on the marriage with you right now).
You'll drive yourself nuts if you want to make sense of it from YOUR perspective, or even from the perspective of what your wife USED to be like. But if you're the type that likes to analyze and understand things (I am!), then just read up on affairs and you'll see that your wife's behavior is very much "script."
YOU are "Plan B," in case OM1 or OM2 don't work out. THAT is why she's being nice to you, to keep you on the side as a fallback option, and also to relieve her own guilt.
There were pictures with her friends from Chicago. She showed me receipts (don't ask me why) from where they went and when I met her for lunch told me I could talk to the girls about the trip if I wanted to (they work with her). She goes to work at the same time she always does comes home at the same time and doesn't go out with the exception with her friends this last weekend. When she has a day off she wants me to spend more time with her and tells me how much fun we are having.
I should have clarified that I was puking from the workout - not from our fight with her. I have read Sandi's posts and if I understand them you are to detach from the spouse and it is solely up to them if they decide to end the A.
I have made it clear that I am not interested in ML or anything for that matter until there is complete transparency. When I detach she goes off on me and tells me she is not going to do this with me. I tell her that I am not interested in an open marriage or being a back up plan.
W has told me that she feels that she cannot talk to me so I have been trying to do more listening than talking. She has been talking to me the last few weeks more than we have in a while.
I guess I am trying to find that middle ground and have the patients to see this out. When we had previous problems I could identify them and work on them. The previous 180's I am still doing and they have made me a better dad/husband/person.
There were pictures with her friends from Chicago. She showed me receipts (don't ask me why) from where they went and when I met her for lunch told me I could talk to the girls about the trip if I wanted to (they work with her). She goes to work at the same time she always does comes home at the same time and doesn't go out with the exception with her friends this last weekend. When she has a day off she wants me to spend more time with her and tells me how much fun we are having.
I should have clarified that I was puking from the workout - not from our fight with her. I have read Sandi's posts and if I understand them you are to detach from the spouse and it is solely up to them if they decide to end the A.
I have made it clear that I am not interested in ML or anything for that matter until there is complete transparency. When I detach she goes off on me and tells me she is not going to do this with me. I tell her that I am not interested in an open marriage or being a back up plan.
W has told me that she feels that she cannot talk to me so I have been trying to do more listening than talking. She has been talking to me the last few weeks more than we have in a while.
I guess I am trying to find that middle ground and have the patients to see this out. When we had previous problems I could identify them and work on them. The previous 180's I am still doing and they have made me a better dad/husband/person. I continue to do these things, that is not the issue.
I am thinking that I should wait to talk until she reaches out to me and not be so accommodating. If she wants to talk to me I will continue to listen like I have been since she says this was an issue or do I stop this?
When I left for a few days she was genuinely happy when I came home and with the exception of yesterday the last few weeks have been drama free. Financially I cannot afford to move nor do I think I should. I have to accept and come to the realization that it is up to her and her alone to end the A. From what is posted here the spouse cannot change the W or her behavior.
DBing is all about plowing that MIDDLE ground, between angry accusations and doormat behavior. You are careening wildly from one extreme to another, and seem to be flying without a plan still. EXECUTING a plan is difficult enough, but to be this far along and not even HAVE one is troubling to me.
Starsky
This is tough... when your spouse is so up & down, it makes it very difficult to stay in the middle. I am fighting this battle of keeping my plan going with my H's ups & downs. And then you begin to feel like your plan should be modified with any change or when new info is discovered.
T: 14 M: 12 D: 9 S: 6 BD: 2/18/15 (H affair) Working on marriage: 3/12/15-6/11/15 Broken Trust (my error): 6/11/15 H ring off: 7/6/15; Comm w/ OW confirmed 7/13/15 H wants to work on fixing things: 7/21/15
Your right with the ups and downs with the spouse. I am trying to stay in the middle and be level. It is hard though I had a very weird day and the W and were talking and relaxing, she asked about ML and I turned her down due to my stance. She then blew up saying that nothing is going on and she hates me etc. etc.
The next day she is asking what I want to do this weekend and our future plans with the house/vacation. Truly confusing and a hell of a ride.
Yep. Very. But you're 5 months in, post-bomb-drop. The "toughness" of it at this stage should be more in the execution of your plan, than in the adopting of the right mindset. THAT should have been set months ago (not to say you won't have bad DAYS keeping the right mindset -- you surely will -- but I don't even sense you're accepted yet where you are, and adopted the proper mindset for DBing.)
Yep. Very. But you're 5 months in, post-bomb-drop. The "toughness" of it at this stage should be more in the execution of your plan, than in the adopting of the right mindset. THAT should have been set months ago (not to say you won't have bad DAYS keeping the right mindset -- you surely will -- but I don't even sense you're accepted yet where you are, and adopted the proper mindset for DBing.)
Are you familiar with "The Stockdale Paradox?"
Starsky
I don't mean to take over Sad in WI thread... But I think it is so difficult because we were working on the marriage for about 3.5 months & things were going along really pretty well. We were closer than we'd been in years and years. Only after I damaged his trust & hurt his feelings did he stop working on us. So really it has only been 5 weeks of trying to figure out how to divorce bust. But I do admit I do not have a concert plan.
T: 14 M: 12 D: 9 S: 6 BD: 2/18/15 (H affair) Working on marriage: 3/12/15-6/11/15 Broken Trust (my error): 6/11/15 H ring off: 7/6/15; Comm w/ OW confirmed 7/13/15 H wants to work on fixing things: 7/21/15
Your right with the ups and downs with the spouse. I am trying to stay in the middle and be level. It is hard though I had a very weird day and the W and were talking and relaxing, she asked about ML and I turned her down due to my stance. She then blew up saying that nothing is going on and she hates me etc. etc.
The next day she is asking what I want to do this weekend and our future plans with the house/vacation. Truly confusing and a hell of a ride.
What criteria have you set up as far as intimacy goes? Just curious as I have no idea what guidelines to set up other than him working on the marriage, wearing his ring, & having transparency w/ his devices.
T: 14 M: 12 D: 9 S: 6 BD: 2/18/15 (H affair) Working on marriage: 3/12/15-6/11/15 Broken Trust (my error): 6/11/15 H ring off: 7/6/15; Comm w/ OW confirmed 7/13/15 H wants to work on fixing things: 7/21/15
My criteria was my unwillingness to be sloppy seconds for anyone. I will not ML with my W until I am certain that the EA with the OM is over.
I will accept a hug from her, but I do not initiate it.
When she asks why I am not ML with her I reiterate the above and she usually gets mad. However, that is one boundary I am unwilling to move on.
I think this is a good boundary. Last night my H brought up my refusal... he was hurt by it & took it as me not wanting to work on the marriage. it was like he saw it as him reaching out to me to try and work on the relationship. I explained that I wasn't rejecting him, I would very much like to ML w/ him & that he is all I want. But while knowing he is in contact w/ the OW, I have to set that boundary. Why did I leave that conversation feeling bad?! I guess b/c I do not want to reject him as he does suffer from low self-esteem... but at the same time, it is not ok what he is doing. He said that he is not one to sleep w/ someone who he does not have strong feelings for & has never been that way. I guess this was supposed to reassure me that he has strong feelings for me?
T: 14 M: 12 D: 9 S: 6 BD: 2/18/15 (H affair) Working on marriage: 3/12/15-6/11/15 Broken Trust (my error): 6/11/15 H ring off: 7/6/15; Comm w/ OW confirmed 7/13/15 H wants to work on fixing things: 7/21/15
My criteria was my unwillingness to be sloppy seconds for anyone. I will not ML with my W until I am certain that the EA with the OM is over.
I will accept a hug from her, but I do not initiate it.
When she asks why I am not ML with her I reiterate the above and she usually gets mad. However, that is one boundary I am unwilling to move on.
I think this is a good boundary. Last night my H brought up my refusal... he was hurt by it & took it as me not wanting to work on the marriage. it was like he saw it as him reaching out to me to try and work on the relationship. I explained that I wasn't rejecting him, I would very much like to ML w/ him & that he is all I want. But while knowing he is in contact w/ the OW, I have to set that boundary. Why did I leave that conversation feeling bad?! I guess b/c I do not want to reject him as he does suffer from low self-esteem... but at the same time, it is not ok what he is doing. He said that he is not one to sleep w/ someone who he does not have strong feelings for & has never been that way. I guess this was supposed to reassure me that he has strong feelings for me?
Sometimes our wayward spouses' WORDS are very reassuring. It's at times like those when you have to try to step back and look at their ACTIONS -- are they also meant to reassure? To add comfort and security and transparency?
My criteria was my unwillingness to be sloppy seconds for anyone. I will not ML with my W until I am certain that the EA with the OM is over.
I will accept a hug from her, but I do not initiate it.
When she asks why I am not ML with her I reiterate the above and she usually gets mad. However, that is one boundary I am unwilling to move on.
I think this is a good boundary. Last night my H brought up my refusal... he was hurt by it & took it as me not wanting to work on the marriage. it was like he saw it as him reaching out to me to try and work on the relationship. I explained that I wasn't rejecting him, I would very much like to ML w/ him & that he is all I want. But while knowing he is in contact w/ the OW, I have to set that boundary. Why did I leave that conversation feeling bad?! I guess b/c I do not want to reject him as he does suffer from low self-esteem... but at the same time, it is not ok what he is doing. He said that he is not one to sleep w/ someone who he does not have strong feelings for & has never been that way. I guess this was supposed to reassure me that he has strong feelings for me?
Sometimes our wayward spouses' WORDS are very reassuring. It's at times like those when you have to try to step back and look at their ACTIONS -- are they also meant to reassure? To add comfort and security and transparency?
Yes, you are right. I really need to get back to focusing on actions. So I wonder if an ok response to their words would be- you are saying these things but I really have to go by what you are showing me with your actions.
T: 14 M: 12 D: 9 S: 6 BD: 2/18/15 (H affair) Working on marriage: 3/12/15-6/11/15 Broken Trust (my error): 6/11/15 H ring off: 7/6/15; Comm w/ OW confirmed 7/13/15 H wants to work on fixing things: 7/21/15
I am jumping in to agree here. Living together while trying to achieve that detachment level that you need is really really hard - I know. There are so many dynamics that work against it. Just the daily schedule with no break, the kids, "normal" family activities, meals, reading into every movement, word and facial expression, the temptation to snoop, and on and on. It all makes you focus on the situation too much.
I believe the only way I have come close to detaching while living together is by doing what is actually not recommended here. I had to become cold toward her, I had to become distant and only focus on me and the kids. Am I lovingly detached, it doesn't appear so, but I have removed myself from being affected by the pain. Am I detached - maybe on most days - it takes a lot for me to be moved in any direction by W.
But now I see this level of detachment as a step toward D because I feel very little for W. Not where I wanted to be, but it is where I am.
So - I feel that a physical separation may have helped so much more than trying to work through this at home.
just my .02
Me-45 W-44 S21, S18, D15 T-27, M-21 BD Jan 2014 PA revealed March 2014 In-house separation - April 2015 I filed - Aug 2015 She moved out Oct 2015
I feel for you U-Turn and you are absolutely right about the family dynamics and temptation to snoop. I made my boundaries pretty clear and I would be lying if I told you that it was not challenging.
W and I are talking more and going to a counselor together to deal with her alcoholism and our communication.
I am just taking it one day at a time and not getting too high or too low.
Sounds like great progress Sad - keep it up, slow and steady. Congratulations about the job opportunity, I hope it goes well. Enjoy that vacation - keep it fun with no pressure.
Hopefully you can drop the Sad part and be awesome in WI.
Keep on Truckin'
Me-45 W-44 S21, S18, D15 T-27, M-21 BD Jan 2014 PA revealed March 2014 In-house separation - April 2015 I filed - Aug 2015 She moved out Oct 2015
W has sent no contact e-mail to the OM last week and showed me proof of same. Deleted the gmail account and gave me access to phone.
We are still going to her counselor and have stated that the trust has been broken and that it will take time to forgive.
Going on a family vacation for a week on Saturday and looking forward to spending some time with the family.
Had a second interview for a new job last week and stoked about the opportunity.
Excellent news!! Yes, taking a break from here can be a GREAT idea sometimes . . . slow and steady! Please do come back though so we can continue to help and guide you.
Oh, and time for a new username!! "S&SinWI" (Slow and Steady in Wisconsin) ?? Something more positive!
I like your new name Starsky. Vacation was pretty good, a little more rugged than I like, but it was a good time overall. I am trying to put the EA behind me, but I find myself saying snarky things sometimes. Part of me wants to bring it up and let her know how I felt about her friend. Then I tell myself why beat a dead horse? Who wants to be reminded of their mistakes, I certainly don't.
It has been a month since we went to W's IC and we have another appointment on Thursday. She is hesitant to bring me b/c she is embarrassed due to her drinking. The truth of the matter is that she is supposed to be going once a week and has not been able to/ I told her that I am not there to judge her and that it helps me to communicate with her better. I will bring it up in a couple of days.
This may be a stupid question, but what can you do to prevent another EA? Is it a matter of time? By working on better communication/support? By no means do I mean to imply all is well, I know there is a long road ahead. Just want some perspective on things.
This may be a stupid question, but what can you do to prevent another EA? Is it a matter of time? By working on better communication/support? By no means do I mean to imply all is well, I know there is a long road ahead. Just want some perspective on things.
By being fully transparent, getting good ongoing MCing with an MC who specializes in dealing with infidelity, by establishing strong and healthy boundaries in your marriage, and by constant honest communication with each other.
It's hard, hard work -- and it'll take a good couple of years to fully get back to where you guys were (and beyond). But it can be even better than ever if you're both committed to it, and do the work necessary!
