I stayed totally calm. I validated her by saying that "I completely understand why you would believe that I am trying to pull off an act. It is hurtful for you to say it but it does not make me angry and I understand it and appreciate your honesty. All I can say is that it is not an act. It is genuine. But I accept that you have to figure that out in your own way and on your own timeline. I care for you and the children very much and if this were an act that would mean I was intentionally trying to deceive you and to hurt you and the children. And that just is not the case."
First part is good, second part could be left out completely. When you go into too much detail explaining how its not an act it comes across just as that, an act. In the future be vague about your changes and say less.
You definitely don't want to say the part about her figuring it out on her own timeline, or you would be deceiving her, that screams to her the changes are only to save the M.
Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
Its a start, the changes you are making have to be for you. your W will be very critical of them .. just as she stated up there and the more she iwll think about them the more she will think its a trick/act as she mentioned. That whole leppord and spots thing going on, it will take MONTHS to get this
Early on this was posted on my wall .. I will post it for you as it makes sense and lets you know its a long road ahead of you.
FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET, AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….
"When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.
Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from.
When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.
Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.
And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.
Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.
And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to WIN.
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to "win".
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell."
Really good feedback and insight again guys. Thank you.
Had a backslide this afternoon. I'm not beating myself up for it. Just going to journal it and share.
Son had a swim lesson this afternoon that I attended. Afterward, kids (S6 and D2) asked if I wanted to go out to dinner with them and then they started pressing my W about why can't daddy come with us etc.
So that is twice in one day where the kids have given the W a full court press. That is happening more and more lately. "Can daddy come home. Can daddy stay. etc"
Anyway. Here is the backslide. After I went to my car I got out and went back over to her car and asked her what day she wanted to do her little "check-in" talks she's been doing. She said Friday. Then she said do you want to come out to eat with us or are you going to be all pouty and sad. I told her I always want to be with them. She made an angry face. So I asked her if she wanted me to come. She said no. So I said it's fine.
Then I went back and reassured her it was fine. Then I called her and repeated myself.
Bad bad BE.
I know what I should have done. As soon as we told the kids I wasn't coming out to eat I should have gone to my car and just left.
Here is an unrelated thought. I continually wonder why she continues to remain undecided about D. Like I told you guys she says as of right now she is only considering it for the kids. And her little check ins that she does with me is so she can simply let me know where she stands in her thought process. As an example she'll say "I really appreciate the space you're giving me. It's allowing me to clear my head. Nothing has changed. I'm still thinking about things and am undecided".
She isn't comfortable at this time disclosing details of her thoughts so I don't push her about it. I did ask her the last time we had one of these talks if there really is a chance for us. She said she wouldn't be taking the time to think about it if there wasn't. I know, this is pursuit. But I can't help wondering what the deal is. Why if she is so negative in her thoughts on me is she still "thinking". Sometimes I wonder if I am being manipulated.
I'm just journaling. Sharing thoughts.
Anyone have any opinions or insights into what her thought process might be?
Best not to overthink it too much, it could be one of numerous reasons she's still undecided. We could speculate on which reason but there's no way of telling for sure at this point. It's very possible she doesn't even know herself and really is just trying to figure it out.
Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
You are detaching at least to the not being reactive, and that is a big accomplishment. The weakening of the feelings comes much slower. Just keep at it, and don't beat yourself up that you aren't there yet.
You say your goal is for your wife to ask you to come home. OK, what are your more immediate goals: the baby steps. For instance, mine are things like W starts initiating contact more, shows interest in what I'm up to/how things are going, showing me consideration rather than just focused on herself, wanting to keep talking when we strike up a conversation and laughing.
Notice, I didn't even state slightly more ambitious goals like W asking me to do something together. That is a step along the progression, but my focus has to be on these first very small immediate goals. What are your equivalents?
I would say that my smaller immediate goals would be very similar to yours. W initiating contact. Showing interest in me and what I'm up to / how I am doing. Carrying on conversations.
I agree ... the fact she is still dipping a pinkie toe in, thinking about the kids speaks volumes .... how many other sitches the WAW is hell bent in love and does not care who knows.
Cali. Can you expand on what you are thinking here?
BE ... I read a few sitches on here ... someone posted an "Oldie but Goodie" today and made me think of you and another poster who I think could really benefit form some seriously wise words.
Robx on “What is DBing?”
Do you think the WAS will be attracted to someone who wouldn't move on with their life and would just stay and wait till they came back to them? Is that attractive? When you move on with your life, when you show them that you value your life just as much as you valued there life, it shows them you're a strong, confident person - those are attractive traits. When you stop holding on to them and let go and move on with your life and whatever that brings you including possibly dating new people, it shows the WAS that you are no longer a backup plan or option in their eyes, if you stay behind and wait for them to come back to you, they will always know that they can take their time coming back if they even want to come back, you give them the power of choice over your life, again not attractive. When you remove yourself as an option in their life, they don't have that choice anymore, you've taken back control of your life which is attractive because think about the qualities you're displaying with this action: confident, secure, ambitious, taking a leadership role in your life again, etc. You're not the backup plan anymore for them, the WAS is then faced with the reality that you aren't there waiting anymore, you're moving on with your life, and if their new relationship isn't working out and they were considering coming back, this generates fear of loss on their part and makes them reconsider their current actions.
That's DB'ing.
What isn't DB'ing?
Hanging in there, writing long letters & emails, text message "terrorism" (where you text them non stop), begging, pleading, grovelling for love, giving them books and articles and telling them they should feel different and they should love you, telling them that they took marriage vows and they have to stick it out even if the marriage is horrible in their point of view, moving out of the master bedroom, moving out of the home to "give them space", being sad and acting depressed, etc. etc. etc.
None of these things is attractive, none of these things is going to bring your WAS back home.
Is the method that I'm describing fool proof, NO. Is it 100% successful, NO. You show me any divorce busting method that is 100% successful all the time, it doesn't exist.
Some relationships can't be fixed for whatever reason, the other person may be at a point in their life where they really want something new & different regardless of how shortsighted that point of view may be.
But they moved on with their life. They had an affair and found someone new. And how did you respond when they did these things? You started working on yourself to show them that you could change, on top of that maybe you started working out and buying new clothes to make yourself look more attractive physically. You started getting a life to show them that you're an attractive individual with options in your life. You did all these things when they moved on and chose to end the relationship. You did all these things because they moved on. They discovered they had options and when a person has options they become more attractive to other people. When a WAS leaves their marriage and starts dating other people, maybe having an affair with someone new and starts a new relationship all the while knowing that they have you in the background should they decide to ever come back, they know they have options. That makes them attractive to you because you were busting your butt trying to get them back and then trying different techniques to get their attention, etc.
In my opinion, why not try doing some of the same things the WAS does, it certainly works on you and every other LBS on these forums so there seems to be a common effect being displayed here. The person who leaves makes the decision to leave on their own. When you originally started seeing each other and dating, you BOTH chose to do that, you would BOTH choose to go out to restaurants, movies, parks, do activities together, etc. When you considered getting married, you BOTH chose to do this and planned out how it would happen. When a person leaves a marriage to pursue other people, dating, have an affair, etc. THEY are making the CHOICE on their own, they aren't making that choice with you. They are taking all the power in the relationship and choosing to do what they want and the LBS is left behind powerless. How do you change that dynamic? How do you reclaim some of the power in the relationship? How do you make a WAS reconsider their actions?
FKAF, for what it's worth, in my own situation, things only turned around when I took back control of my life and took back the power in the relationship. I tried everything else. I moved out of the master bedroom and then the home because she asked me to because she wanted "space", I wrote letters, emails, shared my feelings, showed my wife how vulnerable I was, I begged her to go to counseling, I was needy, insecure, wussy like, bought gifts and generally jumped through every f!@#$%* hoop there was to show my wife that I loved her and wanted her back. When the WAS has that much control in a relationship, they will never be attracted to the LBS and they will never be motivated to come back. Marriage vows are just words and when a WAS has that thought process in place and "runs the show", the only thing you can do is to shake up their reality. In the end this is what is working in my situation and I'm the one now that has the hard time wanting her back after this whole process, that's the danger of detachment, I reclaimed my life back, my eyes are open now, and I'm not sure I want someone like that back in my life who would have done all these things to me, my wife now wants me to go to counseling, she wants to move back home, she talks to me everyday: in person, by text, by email, she does favors for me, she is sorry and is starting to show remorse for her actions, she wants me to forget the past and wants us to move on to a "great new" relationship for us and our family, she tells me that "people make mistakes", she tells me that she "held her family and friends in higher priority than her husband and that she knows now that is wrong".
She didn't see any of these issues as problems when she originally dropped the "bomb". She was content to live on planet "fruitopia" while she was in control and living a great life. When I hit rock bottom, reached my personal threshold of tolerance and that switch inside me finally flicked on and said "she's never going to change and she's hurting me and she knows it and still doesn't care, why am I still jumping through all these hoops to get her back?", that's when I moved back home and experienced "batshitcrazy" (and it was an experience), I slept in my bed in the master bedroom and packed all her things and told her that I wanted her to move out, instead of taking the custody scheduled she so generously gave me, I got lawyers involved and got shared joint custody, I became more active in my own life, I made her responsible for her own life (the term around here is "she can wear her big girl panties"), she was basically living an easy life on my dime, what would prompt her to change that if she was allowed to cake eat for as long as she wanted and I was feeding her that cake? A free ride compliments of me and I realized that and I didn't want that anymore so I decided things would change.
But that's just me, that's where I am right now. Life is really good and it's good because I know now that I'm responsible for living a great life and for a long time during the unhappy portion of our marriage I was miserable and taken for granted and I never took care of myself.
Now I have options, now I won't settle and my wife knows that. Yes I'm a bit of a hard a$$ as well as being a smart a$$, I'm working towards that middle ground for me. I'm a great dad and I make sure my kids have a great life, they didn't ask for this situation and although a part of me wants to give them their family back I can't just be married for the kids, I got married for me first and I want a great relationship and my wife is in personal counseling right now for herself and she's making real changes in her life and I just want to be sure that before I re-enter married life again if that's what I choose to do, it's for the right reasons and that a relationship will be loving, caring, fun, enjoyable and maintainable because regardless of what anyone says, marriage is hard work and I don't care if that doesn't sexy, that's reality. Married people get lazy with each other and take each other for granted, you have to consciously treat each other better, you have to make time for dating which means getting a sitter for the kids, you have to put excitement in the mix, you have to travel, you have to do things together but also make sure you maintain a personal individual life as well.
I agree ... the fact she is still dipping a pinkie toe in, thinking about the kids speaks volumes .... how many other sitches the WAW is hell bent in love and does not care who knows.
Cali. Can you expand on what you are thinking here?
I am of the opinion that there are degrees of waywardness, MLC, all that. Your W I think feels smothered by you ... from your posts I don't think that should come as a shocker, you pursue and bulldoze forcing her into R talks ... R talks she does not want .. she wanted to breathe.
She has not been hell bent on D, she has been hell bent on space .... OM or no OM ... this has been the common theme in your delima. I think she is trying to figure things out ... you really need to DB, focus on you and pull off the "Act as if" approach ... more than just pretend, you are going to have to get to a place where BE is going to be ok W or no W, when you reach this place you will feel it, trust me ... and then when you are there .. your W will feel it aswell.
Right now, at the snap of a finger she could have you back home ... no challenge in that, what you will need to do is look at the M without the emotions, see what went wrong, your part of the demise, own that ... DO NOT share this with W at this point .. that comes later from a BE who is stronger and confident about what he NEEDS in the new M.
My Pinkie toe reference was just that, she has not jumped all the way out of the pool which is good, mine was not only out of the pool, she was in a jacuzzi with an OM ... none of that matters, what matters is that you start turning the focus inward where you can actually create some change
