as_it_is - my adventure continues (part 2)

[asitis]

First thread hitting the 100 post limit, so I'm starting a new one. Here is the first thread for those who want to read back:

as_it_is - my adventure continues

So, bit of a summary of background & where things stand. Married 12 years a week from tomorrow, together 17.5 years. M 50, W 43, 2 Ss (6 &3). March '14 wife, after meeting with a student who just had recovered memory of childhood sex abuse, was in our kitchen and just started shaking and realizing that she wasn't happy and had been in denial of this, and that I was not treating her well but that she was making excuses for me. She lets me know something is wrong. Over the course of the next months, she is more explicit about my problematic behavior and her not feeling loved and respected, her feeling like I whittled away at her self-esteem over the years, and that she was not able to ask for what she needed or wanted (she understood this as a long-term pattern starting in childhood).

I get the message and start really pulling out the stops to be more demonstrative, emotionally open, helpful on the household tasks she feels are unfairly put on her and that she cares most about, start addressing my tendency to have a short fuse and be irritable.

She gives me the ILYBINILWY talk in early summer, lots of love you like brother, we are family, but... Every improvement on my part seems to lead to new boundaries erected and more distance. She asks me to sleep in the spare room over the summer. I ask for MC. MC is mostly her clarifying why she doesn't think we are working then in Nov. 14 after about 5 sessions, she confirms that she wants a separation. MC switches to separation logistics. Separate in early Feb. '15. Somewhat unusually, we share an apartment and our house, so that the kids stay in the house and my W & I rotate back and forth. This is to keep the kids stable environment. Sep. was meant to see how she feels and take some time to let emotions cools and then come back to work on the R. We agree to take a break from MC for a month & then re-evaluate.

All through this, she is sending me mixed signals, and while I give her more space I'm still trying to woo her and show her what a good H I am. In Mar., she says she is finally able to feel all her rage. I give her more space. In 13 Apr. '15, she asks for a divorce, something she says she wanted for a while and regrets not asking for earlier. I take it in stride, which surprises her (she feared I'd explode like her father - something I've never done, or fall apart). We set up MC to discuss this announcement. Feel betrayed that she seems to have had no intention of working on the M, even though she claimed she would.

I finally get it, and stop all wooing. I let her know that she will need to pick up some of the tasks I've been doing as I was still doing all the household/family tasks that I had traditionally done, and much of hers. I had DB, but a colleague who does mental health counseling and is D herself, recommends I read the first chapter of DB. Start reading DB. Get DR, read it. Develop plan. Come here and start reading for about a week, then join and post. Get a lot of help fine tuning the plan and correcting some no-no's I wasn't fully aware I was doing.

About a month ago, I got a DB coach (Jody), and have had 2 phone sessions. Very helpful and optimistic. Still no real babystep changes from my W. She is clearly in a bit of an MLC on top of having issues w/ our M. I have made huge changes w/ regard to problematic behavior, but of course tried to show her before she was ready to see. No evidence of affair.

I'll post a summary of my DBing plan/steps in the next post.

[asitis]

Goals:
Big Goals for the R are my W investing in our R again; having us start working together on some of the areas of mutual responsibility that we have been weak on (e.g., finances, yard, and problem areas of house); being honest with each other in communicating our wants, listening better to each other and learning to fight better; more family time and start having couples' time again; and have W acknowledge the good in our M and our past.

Big Goals for Me: detach, detach, and detach; stopping all pursuit; work on my fears that drive me to want to control the situation and my W; focus on improving my relationship w/ kids; wrestling w/ some of my bad interpersonal habits by working on them with people other than my W; try new things and continue to strengthen my social support network.

Babysteps w/ W include: getting her to start initiating contact; having her show me some consideration; seeing signs that she is not finding having her social life revolve around a few college students (mainly a couple young men - and no A there); having her initiate conversations about topics of interest (our R was built on this); having her show signs of opening up and talking about what is going on in her life.

The most important of those are the first couple.

What I am doing to move in that direction. GAL activities & enjoying the other aspects of my life (doing well on this); being happy, friendly, but keeping interaction short while with W, and making more eye contact; keeping up new habits that show I have changed, but now they are for me and my well-being; playing more with the kids, esp. when w/ is around; avoiding initiating contact unless really necessary and delaying my response to contacts by her; keeping up my fitness routine;

GAL activities: I'm a practicing Buddhist, w/ a good daily meditation regime. I read a lot in the subject, have a formal student-teacher relationship with a Zen priest, am active in a local weekly sitting group, and since November '14 have done monthly weekend sitting intensive retreats all but 2 months.

I also have been good on exercising regularly & trying to eat healthy to support my sanity as well as get in a bit better shape/be more attractive.

I have started taking pottery classes, and have really enjoyed it. None right now, and I'm missing the activity.

I've joined the local Unitarian Universalist Church, and go fairly regularly. Good group/social support.

I'm starting down the path toward a new career. I currently teach political science at our local uni., but as an adjunct, which doesn't pay well enough and is not secure enough if I have to support myself. I've entered a graduate program in mental health counseling. It will keep me very busy during the school year, between teaching my classes for work, taking classes for my master's, and being a dad. Lots of new people with shared interest, and we go through the program as a cadre, so it a lot of friendships and social opportunities. Also, very nurturing environment - after all we all are interested in helping others with their emotional issues, and this includes each other.

I've also been reading and commenting on a number of threads on this forum. Found it very helpful to support others, but sometimes I do feel a bit like I get over focused on saving my M and don't spend enough time just doing what I want.

DB coach has me emphasizing not doing anything that smacks of spousal relationship w/ my W, but instead focus on being friendly, humorous, upbeat, and attractive. In fact, attractiveness is the mantra and lens I am to filter my words and actions through. She also has me focusing even more than I already did on being childlike w/ the kids, esp. when the opportunity arises to do so in front of W. She also wants me to focus on my tendency to offer ideas/suggestions to an issue we need to deal with on the house or kids as an opportunity to show respect and admiration by asking W's opinion.

Again, little in the way of signs of progress from W. Jody says patience is best indicator of success in the DBer, and w/ MLC thrown in, it is extra important.

Many more signs of progress re: myself and goals for myself.

Things I still need to work on more:
1) Self-medicating w/ alcohol. I need to cut back on this. It is too easy to start having a drink or two every day, and more on days when I don't have much to do & am feeling a bit down.

2) Keeping focused on myself and not worrying about W and what she is or isn't doing, especially the lack of signs of progress on the baby steps.

3) Eye contact & listening. I don't get enough practice w/ W at this stage, so I need to look for more opportunities w/ other people.

[asitis]

OK, now that I've summarized where I am and what I'm doing, a little journalling.

Mixed day today. Had to go over to do some lawn mowing at the house (we share this duty as it takes a while). Saw the W & kids. Pleasant interactions. W went to grocery store while I mowed, and she got a good view of me from behind manhandling the mower. She always loved my broad back and shoulders, and other views from the rear. I wondered if it still had any effect on her.

She was going to bring the kids over to the apartment pool, and I was planning to work out in the fitness room, which looks out onto the pool. Didn't really want to see them and not be part of the fun. Fortunately, she either changed her mind or came earlier than I thought & didn't stay long.

Had a good workout. Watching a movie tonight. I'm not a big fireworks fan (I'm a bit sensitive to loud noises, as are both my Ss). Still, a bit down because it is supposed to be a day for family activity and togetherness, and that wasn't going to happen.

Monday, I go for a colonoscopy (a delayed 50th b-day present - yeah). W will be taking me & picking me up. Sort of wish I had asked someone else in retrospect, but drinking the potion and getting put under are going to be much bigger negatives to the day.

If I'm not too groggy from the anaesthesia, I have my monthly movie discussion group at church. We've seen some good movies together, and the discussions have been interesting. Good to get out and be around adults, which has been in short supply since getting back from vacation.

Tuesday, we have our new monthly meeting to work on the finances and nagging house issues. Both of us have made some progress on the goals we set for ourselves last month, and last time the working together on something important felt good. Having some success should add to that. Still, you never know.

Happy 4th for those of us here in the U.S.

[PigPen]

That's a lot of great stuff As, you've got this well mapped out and a great path in place. I have faith in you my friend, you've got just enough contact with your W so that she can see the changes but enough distance where you can work on yourself and really let them set in.

Patience is the best indicator in the success in the DB'er huh? I needed that one. I've spent the not detaching about who my W may or may not be hanging out with. Detach, detach, detach.

As for your goals, they're awesome. Even before I jumped on the wagon myself, I worked with a lot of people for whom alcohol wasn't a big deal, but was big enough that they mentioned it. I always recommended the same thing - take a month off. 30 days is a great reset. It lets you know that you're not going to go without forever, but is enough time to really let the positive effects set in.

Couple that with the inevitable 5-7 pounds that they all lose and it's a win/win. Give it some thought, it will definitely help with your fitness goals as well as your meditations. After my first 30 days of complete sobriety I had lost 5 pounds and I workout every day. It's more than just the additional caloric intake, there's an inflammatory component to drinking and as well as some nutrient absorption issues.

Food for thought anyway. I currently end the day with a glass of kombucha poured into one of my old beer glasses. Works well.

You're a big contributor to a number of the threads around here and we all appreciate your wisdom and advice. It really does look like you've got all of your bases covered and following this thread would be a great way for all newcomers to the site to design their next few months.

Keep at it As, I look forward to following along with your situation. Let me know if you want any workout or dietary tips too, I'd be happy to pass them along.

Happy 4th.

PP

[Bob723]

That's a lot of great stuff As, you've got this well mapped out and a great path in place. I have faith in you my friend, you've got just enough contact with your W so that she can see the changes but enough distance where you can work on yourself and really let them set in.

Patience is the best indicator in the success in the DB'er huh? I needed that one. I've spent the not detaching about who my W may or may not be hanging out with. Detach, detach, detach.

You're a big contributor to a number of the threads around here and we all appreciate your wisdom and advice. It really does look like you've got all of your bases covered and following this thread would be a great way for all newcomers to the site to design their next few months.

Hello asitis,

Our great friend PigPen summarized today's posts very well. And I second PP's comment about us appreciating your wisdom and advice. (The same goes for you, PP!)

I think it's fantastic that you've entered a graduate program in mental health counseling. Good for you, asitis.

Bringing up patience helped me, like it did PigPen. Thanks for mentioning that. All in all, I think you are headed in the right direction.

I wish you well, asitis. You can do this!

Bob

[asitis]

The patience saying was from my DB coach, who said it was the best indicator/predictor of success in the people she coaches.

Thanks for the kind words.

Am planning on the time of booze for a while. It's not helping anything. I love a good bourbon and a good beer, but when I'm at the apartment, it's become more often than not. And, I definitely wouldn't mind dropping those 5-7 pounds.

Cheers.

[asitis]

Good hand off day. W was more talkative than usual, and actually asked questions about my mom when the subject came up. She mentioned some little frustrations. Lots of eye contact. Let her go out and do her share of the lawn mowing. Coordinated on my colonoscopy adventure tomorrow, my up coming trip to the monastery for 2 weeks, her vacation plans, and having to re-arrange our schedule for who has the kids before long in anticipation of the fall semester work & class schedule.

One funny moment. She walked out to go mow, and I was in the kitchen putting some groceries away. She came back in to tell me that the two college boys were over on Friday to help with the yard in exchange for dinner, and they changed from work clothes to a clean change of pants and socks, so I shouldn't think the wrong thing about the clean folded men's pants on the chair in the kitchen. It was sort of funny, and she clearly wanted me to not think get the wrong idea. I actually hadn't even noticed it, knew they were coming over to work, and knew that she wouldn't have a sleepover in the house w/ the kids even if she were sneaking in an A (I really don't see evidence of one). I'm not going to read anything into it, other than my being amused.

Tomorrow is my older S's 1/2 birthday. Because my W's b-day was 5 days after Christmas, she is sensitive to the fact that gifts all get concentrated in a short window. Elder S's b-day is 6 Jan., so we've had the practice of a small 1/2 birthday gift. As I'm going to be out of it for my colonoscopy, we're going to the sporting goods store for his first ball glove, and a t-ball set up. I find it interesting that I've always been largely in charge of the kids' gifts, but in the current situation, I'm thankful I get to think of things that we can bond over.

Maybe some pizza out.

Also, I'm happy that I'm finally really getting back into my good routines that were disrupted by vacation and I wasn't doing well on until the last few days (exercise routine, meditation, reading).

[asitis]

Tonight W texts me asking for the root password on her laptop so that she can install an updated version of Flash. I'm a Linux user, and all of our computers run it. She shouldn't need a password for an update, so I suspected that she was trying to install a version from Adobe, which is a no-no.

So I call, yep. She has been getting error messages and crashes on websites that use flash. I told her that this sometime happens with the sites misreading the browser or flash version, but not to do what she is doing. I then said, bring the laptop over tomorrow before she takes me to my colonoscopy, and I'll look at it.

Part of me wanted to say, you don't want a husband so you'll need to figure out how to manage your computer on your own. But she is taking me to the doctors and picking me up after (they won't let me go home by myself after anaesthesia), and we've been getting along fairly amicably. No great improvement, but generally pleasant and friendly. Figured I'd do more harm by refusing. I know it is continuing to take care of something I always did that & now she is rejecting the rest of the M, so shouldn't I cut her off. Just seemed petty.

Thoughts?

[Fogg]

Not sure I see the refusing part causing more damage, unless you mean not giving her the password at all? Then yes, I agree.

Its one thing to tell her to bring it over so you can fix it, but you assumed the problem right away and told her what it was. What might have happened if you just gave her the password and let her continue?

She may have broken something and then still needed your help, so you may have still ended up fixing it. I can understand the urge to fix something for her but you don't need to protect her from making the mistake in the first place.

She will need to see the consequences of her actions in some way.

[asitis]

Yes I see that. It would have taken a lot more to untangle, but ...

I'm thinking of having her search the relevant forums until she can find the answer herself, try each possibility and then let me know. At least she'll see what it takes and what I've been doing.

It's hard to stop instinctively just taking over.

Thanks.

[asitis]

So, got back from my colonoscopy. W took me & picked me up. She acted just like she was actually my W. Conversation was light and we joked about the procedures like colonoscopies and mammagrams that we are now having to go through.

She brought her laptop over. I told her she would have to do the fixing, but that I would walk her through where I would look so that she can learn rather than me hunting for the answers and doing it for her. She appreciated that, and I explained my rationale for what I was having her do, explaining that yes, I have to run into dead ends at least a few times as I hunt to figure out the exact problem, and then again as I hunt to figure out possible solutions, and that it is a lot of trial and error. Praised her when she accomplished something, and sympathized when something didn't work. We didn't fix it before I had to go in for my procedure, but I left her with some suggestions for her to keep working on it and a stop gap to allow her to keep getting what she wanted done.

After bringing me home, I thanked her again and said I appreciated that we still were able to do this kind of thing for each other and how unusual that was and what it says about us.

Left on a positive note. So good day, other than the side effects of anaesthesia and grumbling intestines.

[asitis]

Need some advice.

S6 says that the two student friends of my wife stayed drinking after she put the boys to bed Friday. When we were talking, I politely inquired if she was making sure they weren't leaving here drunk to drive home. She says that she cuts them off, then makes them stay until they are OK to drive. I'll set aside having an impaired person judge how much two others have had, what the impact on them is, and when they are "OK" to drive.

One of the friends recently graduated, so I was sure he was 21. I asked is Pxxx 21? No, he is 20. Now, I really could care less about whether he drinks or not, but how irresponsible can she get? This is a student of hers. She already socializes with these two way more than is appropriate given the power differential and what others would think. But now she is serving one of them who is underage alcohol, and then he is driving home.

Even if he is below the legal limit, if he gets pulled over underage, they are going to want to know where he got the alcohol. Or worse, gets into an accident and someone is killed. Now, it becomes an issue for the uni (our employer). Technically, the only rules the uni has is about serving alcohol at uni-connected functions and for sexual relations between student & teacher, but I'm sure they'd throw her under the bus. They have done this sort of thing without due process and then let the faculty member take it to the courts.

This isn't just her MLC, as this was the kind of thing she was much looser on, and I would raise. She'd do an "oh, yeah, I hadn't thought of that." Neither of us has a moral objection to a 20 year old drinking, but it is the law and there are consequences.

When things were going well, I would just talk to her. But now, I'm the ball and chain keeping her down, killing her spirit, being controlling. If I raise an objection, I make the M sitch potentially worse. But, we depend on her income. She is well respected as a teacher, and yet all the good things she has done to earn that well-deserved reputation could get flushed down the toilet by this kind of irresponsibility.

I know that at one level it is not my business what she chooses to do. And, I definitely get triggered by watching her orient her social life in this dysfunctional way. And, I am jealous that she is not spending time with me. And, there are real consequences for the rest of our family if something happens. I'm too enmeshed and personally involved to sort this one through clearly. My instinct is to take the risk for the prospects of our M and say nothing. I also hate being in the role of the responsible one. That is one of our dynamics that I really want to change. Yet, this doesn't seem like something to brush aside.

Advice?

[teach3]

That's a hard situation but in my opinion she is being very irresponsible.

It could ruin her professionally and someone could get hurt. I would say something.

[Bob723]

Hi asitis.

I agree 100% with Teach.

Bob

[asitis]

OK, so how to broach the topic in the least M harmful way?

[Fogg]

Honestly I'm not sure what you should do about that situation, but I am curious more about something else.

How long has she been so close to these two students? What do they all do, how do they interact? I know you said before there is no A there, why do you say that?

[asitis]

There is obviously no way to be 100% sure.

It is fairly obvious that she is not attracted to them. The interactions are always in groups. It is a combination of having them in classes, working on a first generation students council, advising, and lunches at the student union. She never does anything out of public view with any one of them alone. She has shown no sign of coming close to crossing this border.

Most of her interactions are facebook silliness that anyone can see. It is just immature rather than flirtatious.

I have open access to her phone records, have seen her facebook chat recently (she left it open), and she I have seen her e-mails because she had me look for something she couldn't find. She is one of the worst at devious behavior, is too transparent, and trust me, I've been watching carefully.

All that said, even if she were to slip and have a one-night stand with one of them, there is nothing I can do about it, and what I am worried about it this irresponsible behavior.

Partly it is her being in charge of the kids and not being able to drive if there were an emergency. Part is that it sets a bad example for the boys, and the older one noticed it enough to mention it to me. Part is the jeopardy she is putting her job and our financial security in.

And, as I've mentioned, I also am of course hurt and jealous that she would rather spend time soaking in the adoration of people she is in a superior power relationship with, when sitting around talking about all our shared interests (we're both intellectuals with close interests and values) was what drew us together and was central to our love for each other. That makes it hard to disentangle the real concerns from the personal emotional involvement.

So, let's say she is having an affair. Nothing I can do about it. Not the issue right now. It jeopardizes her job, yes. But this other is more directly relevant to my children and much more likely to blow up in our face if the 20 year old gets pulled over or in an accident.

[PigPen]

Sorry As, I just don't see it being prudent. There's nothing positive about a teacher and her 20 year old students drinking together. Nothing. No one hearing about it, seeing it, or even catching it in passing is going to think that it's a smart professional or personal move.

They aren't 28 year old graduate students sharing a glass of wine with their professor - that happens and is part of life. This has a different feel to it and even if there's nothing happening in the sexual realm, these guys also aren't hanging out with her just to enhance their intellect. They're 20 year old guys. Who are drinking. They have something on their minds.

Beyond the legal ramifications I agree with you that it sets a bad example for your kids.
Truthfully my friend, I'm not sure how to broach it though. Hopefully one of the vets can come on here and help you out. That being said, it should be addressed in my opinion.

The real challenge is not to get your feelings involved in the conversation which will be nearly impossible. She's read the emotion behind it no matter how the message is delivered.

Sorry I can't be of more help on this one. Feel for you though, that's got to be hard to hear. Especially on colonoscopy day of all days.

PP

[Fogg]

I agree if it is an A there's nothing you can do about it. I'm not saying she is directly but something seems very off with their relationships. She should know better than to let them drink there much less the driving home and being underage. It could all just be a symptom of the MLC, she liking how they make her feel about herself rather than it being about them.

Again though, not sure how you address that. Hope a Vet can help soon.

[asitis]

Thanks. That's what I'm struggling with. I hoped her just saying he was 20 (the other is 22) would set off alarms with her. No sign if it did.

I will also raise it with my IC. I just wish she would share with her colleague all about my W's unhealthy socialization with these students (to be fair there are a couple of female students in the group, but they tend not to be as available because of schedules). Just so her IC could say, so tell me about your social life lately? Not going to happen, but damn it would be nice.

Also, my niece was here and witnessed it, so she may say something in front of my SiL & BiL who are both college professors. Whether she knows the one is only 20, whether they connect the dots, I think they would say something to her, and they will all be together in a couple weeks for vacation.

I'll also raise this w/ my DB coach, but I'm not scheduled to talk to her for several weeks because I'll be out of town for 2 weeks starting Saturday.

My brother suggested I just make it about the kids and an agreement that there is a sober parent who can respond if there is an emergency, and that older son has commented on it and I don't think it is the kind of example we want to set. Sure, nothing wrong with adults having a drink together, and he doesn't know the ins and outs of drinking age and all. But she has 3 nights a week to socialize. I can tell her I leave it to her to make decisions about the risks she is willing to take professionally.

Obviously there is a financial liability, and I will be contacting my insurance company tomorrow to make sure that my umbrella liability covers the apartment.

I might have to let her crash and burn professionally. I obviously would protect her if I could, but I don't see how in this situation without it blowing up in my face and the M. It would really hurt financially (ironically, I'd end up taking over her classes because I am the only one qualified to teach what she does), but both of our families are in a position to help out. It is also a bit ironic that this kind of crisis would likely be a wake up and discover who was standing there supporting her. Don't wish for it in the least, but the thought has crossed my mind.

Maybe planting the seed regarding the in front of the kids would be enough to cause her to start thinking about the whole situation more responsibly. Maybe she'd get pissed off and complain to her IC, who would then see what was going on in her social life and be able to intervene.

If it keeps up, I might have to think about other ways of getting an intervention.

Oh, and the colonoscopy wasn't really a big deal. 4 litres of horrible liquid to drink, but otherwise just a light nap. I even woke up at the end and got to watch what they were seeing on the screen. No pain & sort of cool. So, it wasn't really a bad day to have something come up. If anything, today was the one day where my asking the one student's age seemingly innocently would not set her off defensively. She was in caregiver mode.

Keep any bright ideas coming. Thanks for the brainstorming so far.

[asitis]

I agree if it is an A there's nothing you can do about it. I'm not saying she is directly but something seems very off with their relationships. She should know better than to let them drink there much less the driving home and being underage. It could all just be a symptom of the MLC, she liking how they make her feel about herself rather than it being about them.

Again though, not sure how you address that. Hope a Vet can help soon.

On the relationship, regardless of any sexual issue, is very unhealthy and unprofessional. It is one thing to have some social encounters with students. We do have social functions as a department for instance. But there is a power dynamic that makes this young men (both of whom are smart and talented students and I'm sure are a joy to have in class) into a incestuous relationship where one gives extra attention students aren't used to in exchange for male adoration that she has been aware of is a problem for her (defining her worth via male approval). She is a great teacher and has always had lots of students she was very close to. Mostly these have been attracted to her as a role model. It was something I always highly respected in her.

She also had a female student who disclosed recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse who she helped and developed a friendship with, again as a mentor-mentee. As our relationship deteriorated, all of a sudden, it started to increasingly be male students who became part of her cadre of student devotees. Women tending to be less assertive, started having trouble getting through the ring of male students. What was admirable became unsavory and unseemly.

There has been a slow blurring of the line. Not sure when it crossed it, but it is across. I just don't know what to do or say that will help either me, her, or us. I'm sure she doesn't see it as even a blurry line given her current emotional state.

It has been hard to watch, and was part of what tipped me off to the MLC aspect. If her therapist knew she would walk her right through all the problems with these relationships and how they were neither giving her what she thought she was getting (adoration from someone below you in a power dynamic is not really respect and admiration as you would get from an equal) and how it was hiding a whole host of issues she needed to deal with. I'm the last person who can say anything. I've written lots of letters never to be mailed to vent on this.

Others are aware of some of this, although not the extent, or that she now socializes with few adults. I'm sure my W sees all of this is just light, happy fun with people who have some intellectual interests similar to the ones she and I shared, and are not all burdened with adult responsibilities and mutual obligations that are stifling her lost teenage spirit.

It has been very sad to see, and something when her parents hear all this about me being the problem, you just want drop in their laps to see what is really going on. Frustrating.

I've been resigned to let it play its course as part of the MLC and knowing that if I try to raise it as a problem it will get read as H = enemy trying to control and dominate me and drive her further away and into her immature, irresponsible behavior. The last couple weeks have shown that I can't drive her much further, that the problems have more impact on my family, and yet I still will get blasted and undermine the DBing work that has shown signs of at least halting the deterioration and perhaps some hints of subtle thawing.

Yuck.

[CaliGuy]

Asitis

Just read up on your sitch a bit as I can't sleep... Doing a 180 and posting from my phone so this will not be as winded as I'm typically famous for.

Reading up on your wife's actions and as I've been reading up on your posts... Not sure I see the hardcore MLC stuff I've seen in others, mleighs H is similar, more of a lost soul trying to sort things out, no A to speak of ... And has seemed to put himself into work

I wonder if your wife has gravitated to the goofy kids as an escape, she has no pressure to be the intellectual in that circle, if anything from my perspective it's a change of pace where she can dumb it down and relax a bit .... Might be something there for you to explore

I still feel you are all up in her head, (takes one to know one I rent a flat in my wife's left hemisphere) .... But this angle could be a possible 180, during an exchange you might try high laid back PMA along with a more casual approach... If it's true MLC you'll have plenty of time for these experiments

[asitis]

Agree that it is not full blown MLC, but both IC & DB coach see at least some sign of mild MLC (how I described it in my first post and in the MLC forum). I don't think most W go full MLC haywire. The students are definitely an escape, and DB coach has me learning from what she is getting and not having to deal with as part of my DBing.

One tip off that this isn't just WAW is that she did not plan an escape & that this came on literally overnight. One day things were OK. Not great, but OK. Then it she had an epiphany and everything about M & me became sh*t. She has said she has just wanted to run away from the beginning. She is also not pushing to get out or take responsibility for a new life. She wants to be irresponsible.

She is much less available to the kids and is enjoying her time away from them, even though she never was primary caregiver (if anything that was me). This is time for her to play and not be serious. Then there is the extremely juvenile fixation on teenage things.

Also, last summer when I really started to see MLC, she started by looking over pictures her dad had sent her from her childhood and teen years. She looked at those over and over and over, commenting repeatedly that she had lost that spirit she saw in the 11-13 year old self. Those were rebellious years for her (full of drug use and early sex - for the era, & albeit she was a serial monogamist). Then she started really socializing outside of class and office hours with her students, getting into new music her students listened to, got into emoji, and started having posts & comments on facebook that others asked me what was going on as she seemed to be acting really juvenile.

Around this time the story started to evolve from our dynamics and both our problems contributing to the M crisis, to everything being about me. We started to get the speaking in absolutes about this time: I didn't feel loved our entire M, you never showed me love or respect, you never were willing to show love or emotional vulnerability. At the time, I tried the pointing out all the obvious reasons why these were gross overstatements. Wish I knew I what I know then.

Also, the woman I know would never destroy her family and walk away from a marriage with someone she committed to, who was loyal, faithful, and was willing to work on things as hard and long as she knows I would. Obviously, I was premature in trying to show her this, but I do know the importance of the values she held, and this is just so opposite her. She also has become much more irresponsible in a lot of ways that are unusual, and there is the crazy irrational justification and "logic' being used since last summer.

Fortunately, I think she has some restraints on MLC and other bad behavior. She has been in IC since the start. I know her therapist will be warning her as much as it takes that getting involved with someone else would be really bad for her right now. It also gives me some hope that regardless of what this is, that there might be some hope that the usual long trip down the rabbit hole might not last as long given her being in therapy.

And, as everyone has said to me repeatedly, the good news is that you treat MLC and WAW basically the same way.

That said, this new irresponsible behavior is a recent escalation. I've suspected that some of this was going on for a bit over a month, but now I know she is taking risks that she should know better about. This is no longer just simple escapism. She is risking her career and not being responsible with the boys.

[CaliGuy]

Well .. reading all that she definitely has some traits, as much as I have read ... and I am almost embarrassed to admit how much ... I do believe that like most things MLC falls on a spectrum, some hit the nightmare stage, others not as intense. Regardless it impacts the M and the LBS and the family, some more devastating in areas of Finances, family, friendships, jobs and all the things that can come with Possible A's and OP's.

As you know ... one of the big things is pressure. She will look at you as an authority figure, and she is rebelling against that, appears hiding in the safety of less demanding groups whose main focus at the present might be what slang and jokes to post on FB. Just DB, keep PMA and go on about your buisness ... look at yourself a bit and how you can 180, GAL .... things you know you need to work on regardless of whats is going on with the M.

[asitis]

Yep. Just keep going on the plan.

One new wrinkle today that I was hoping to put off. I come up from sorting through some of the boxes of books with is part of my needs to happen list. S6 is saying that's sort of like us, being divorced.

What???? I calmly say what do you mean honey? He replies like us spending half the time with you and half with mom.

I ask, where did you hear about divorce? Then awareness expands and I hear S3 watching old episodes of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. Episode 1 on parents getting a divorce. Ugh!

Now, I grew up in the same church as Fred Rogers, and he really was the way he seemed on TV, a genuinely wonderful, kind man, especially with children. I was weaned on Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. Even though they no longer air it on our local PBS station, we've always encouraged and given open access to it on the tablet.

So, I ask what else he thinks about Divorce. He adds that mom & you are like you are divorced. OK, how does that make you feel? Fine.

We go into the bedroom and lie down and talk a bit. I give him the your mom and I don't know yet what will happen, but she and I are having problems, and for now we've agreed to live apart and take care of you in turns while we work things through. I can't promise you how that will end up, but we take this very seriously, and you and your brother are our first priority. Yes, I wanted to say something else, but that wouldn't be helpful.

I also said that for the time being we will continue things the way they are, although your mom & I will need to switch which days you're with mom & which with me.

He asked if we would all be together. I said that I can promise him anything, but that is my hope and I will work toward that, as well as giving you and your brother the happiest life possible. I asked how he felt. He said "I'm not sure." I asked if you want us all back together? He said, "I don't want to get my hopes up, so I'm not going to hope for that."

D*mn that hurts. Sounds so reasonable, but it is a 6 year-old.

We talked some more about him coming to me whenever he has feelings about this or anything else that he is wrestling with, or has any questions. Know that your mom & I are here for you, we love you, and that will never change, ever.

Played a bit, but nothing else came out. Now he's reading his animal guidebooks (a soothing interest - he has a touch of asperger's syndrome most likely).

Not sure what to tell the W, as I really don't want to get into R talk right now. I know I need to, but I'm really not wanting to. We are meeting to day to discuss some business and shared household projects.

I need a break from all this. Saturday can't come fast enough (I leave for 2 weeks at the zen monastery near here).

[Wonka]

Asitis,

You do not NEED to tell W about this convo as it was between you and your sons. The sky isn't falling down. Likewise, you don't need to know every convo that the boys have with your W...right?

[asitis]

You're right. We have not had the talk with them and wanted to consult with a therapist over how to have it when the time comes.

[asitis]

So, got back from my conference w/ wife. Not as smooth as last month. She wants to move toward financial separation as fast as possible, and doesn't want to support me even though I've been a stay at home husband for 4 of the last 6 years, work for a lot less so that we could work in the same area rather than be a distant academic couple.

She felt like I made choices that she didn't have a say in, even though she never raised objection to what we were doing. We were both counting on an arrangement to work out that created a shared position for us, that the department went back on because they didn't like the new rules it would be implemented on. Now, it is my fault that I made choices and she supported them based on those expectations.

There was a lot of anger. I worked, got tenure, did most of the cooking and cleaning. Of course, I cleaned the dishes, did do some cleaning, and took care of all the big household maintenance, including the yard. And I worked long hours, albeit for much less pay.

Only challenged her view once, and otherwise listened and validated. She clearly is very, very angry still. She kept saying that she felt exploited. An overstatement, but that's how she feels at least now. She doesn't think that she should bear the brunt of our joint financial situation or that her commitments to support me through the masters program that she promised (she now says that she didn't remember the promise the way I said even though I asked repeatedly to make sure). I told her that everyone said get it in writing, and I kept saying, no I know my wife and I can trust her word. I've learned that mistake.

We started to come down and talk more reasonably after that, acknowledged that we both agree that mistakes were made and that we need to focus on moving forward. She brought up using a mediator to start the process on the finances. I agreed that this seemed best to avoid fighting over the past and keeping things as positive as we could. I told her that the person whose name I was given by a colleague in counseling no longer does divorce mediation, but she recommended someone highly, and I would get her the name.

That resolved, we agreed that our past months homework that I suggested helped to identify areas we need to be trimming.

We still are in a disagreement about the basic concept that in a marriage, unless otherwise agreed, the higher income earner doesn't just get to have a greater discretionary spending fund. She focuses on how much she pays, and when I point out that as a proportion of her income she pays less than I do as a proportion of my income, that during the years when I was a stay-at-home dad, when there were family expenses, she would often not reimburse me for basic necessities. Any, mistakes were made.

We both got to vent a bit, which was probably good. I plan when I see her tomorrow to tell her I thought about what she said on the feeling exploited, and really do understand why she feels this way.

We moved on to other nagging household tasks. Mainly taking care of accumulated positions that clutter certain areas. We talked about goals for last month. I got all my goals done. She really didn't contribute at all. I did say that she had identified her top two priorities for July, and they both really required her participation, as we had mutual decisions to make on the next steps. She agreed to help more. No, thanks for all your hard work and doing what you said. Too much to expect.

We talked a bit about how we are both different people and have obviously would have handled things differently as the people we are. Did fall into a bit of R talk acknowledging I hear her loud and clear on her wanting a D, but I did bring up that there is still a lot of anger for the past and her acknowledgement that the people we have become would not do that to each other. I said I'm not holding out hope, but I also wouldn't close the door because it is what I believe in.

Probably the last was unnecessary.

We hugged and said it was good to clear the air on some things and speak our minds, it is good to be actually addressing some of these nagging issues for both of us. I thanked her for being able to express her feelings and wants more openly than she has in the past. She said she really appreciates that we are handling this and working together so well. She still wants a divorce [thanks honey, I missed that part the other times you made it clear], but she knows that we are really doing so much better at making the S & moving toward D work well.

Almost, said, "yeah, we make a good team don't we. What a good marriage we could have if you ever decide to move beyond anger and blame and invest yourself." Big STFU smoothie.

[asitis]

Boy, feeling her lack of respect, feeling the anger, and swallowing defending myself is very stressful and tiring. I know she is hurting. I know a lot of what she was telling me was that she didn't feel respected or appreciated. I am trying to acknowledge that, but it is also hard for me to not want to respond in the name of fairness.

I know that the respect can return once the anger is vented, she works through her pain, and really starts seeing who I am now. It may never happen fully. It may not be enough, but even though I remind myself that those feelings will likely change (at least they will mellow with time, but I think more), it is still very painful to face.

Really looking at the listening and validating the feelings, I want to more fully acknowledge the hurt that was in those criticism, acknowledge that I did appreciate and value her, and I'm sorry that I wasn't capable of expressing that in a way she could see.

So, here is the gist of what I'm thinking of saying:

I want to let you know that I've been thinking a lot about what you said yesterday and the hurt and frustration you expressed. I do see why you feel that way. I really do, and I want you to know that I am taking it very seriously. We obviously both made mistakes, as we both admitted, and I am taking full responsibility to address those things that are part of that mess. But more than that, I heard you basically saying that you didn't feel appreciated and respected during those times. I feel horrible that you felt that way. I did appreciate and respect you, and I am sorry that I was not capable of letting you know this in a way you could feel it.

I know that I said some things that were defensive yesterday, and I still feel like there are some issues that I'm not getting properly acknowledged for. But if there is one thing I've learned from our troubles, it is that the quality of the relationship going forward is more important than feeling I was fairly heard, get my point heard, or "win" the argument. That isn't what is important to me, and I wish I saw that then the way I do now.

So, you want mediation on the finances, and I agreed and will do the hard work that entails. But I wanted to let you know that I hear your main concern that you want me to take steps to move toward financial separation. I want this too. What suggestions do you have that we can consider getting started on while we get the mediation process started?

end


I'm not planning to write it out, as I want eye contact. I'll be winging it. We will have some time tomorrow morning where we have to deal with some arrangements regarding our impending trips. The above is in fitting with the approach my DB coach has laid out for me. Yes, it goes beyond listening and validating. It is letting her know that I really heard by bringing it up again and let her know that I not only heard, but am giving it serious consideration. She also wants me to show my respect and appreciation by asking her opinion on what we should do rather than just offer suggestions.

That helped to write out. I know it doesn't fit with the classic DB approach as practiced here, but I'm trusting my coach on this.

D*mn, this stuff is tiring.

On a funny note to finish, S3 said "maybe mom wants to stay in the apartment and not see you because you eat too much and get sick." I just had to laugh. He always says the thing that brightens my mood in the toughest of times. I have know idea how my W & I produced such a natural empath. I've had to work to earn almost every bit of my empathy. Older S, later explained there was a character in a video that people were unhappy with because he ate too much and got sick.

I love my kids. I'll take tiring.

[asitis]

Tonight is my last night with the kids for a couple weeks. They are sound asleep. One of our special father son rituals is that after I'm done reading each of them a bedtime story, they each get to request one story from me. I tell them the story and then tell them I love them and wish them a good night sleep.

So tonight, I came out and recorded two sets of stories on S6's iPad mini that they can have played for them when they are missing me. I'll show them to them tomorrow so they know they can request them, and then I'll have to show my W how to play them for them in case they forget. I suspect S3 will remember, as he is our gadget boy who figured out how to unlock my tablet at 6 months.

This will be the longest I've been away from them ever. I know that many parents routinely have to spend time away from their young kids for work or obligations to care for a parent, but it is still hard, especially when it is because W wants to go on family vacation without you included. I know that I took the kids on vacation without her, but not because that was my preference. I'll miss my little guys.

[asitis]

So conversation this morning went well. She walked a few things back after hearing that I had listened, considered, and was taking what she said seriously. She offered a few conciliatory compliments and words of appreciation. She acknowledged some of her role in some of the things that yesterday she was painting me as the sole culprit.

We talked about how we would handle things differently now, some of the tricks we've learned to address some of our bad habits and triggers more effectively.

I had also raised her serving alcohol to the 20 year-old student yesterday in a very gentle, just concerned, but you're an adult and I trust you to think this through and your judgement. After my basically saying I was thinking about what you said first, she admitted that she had been thinking about what I said about the sitch with the student, and that I was right. She says that she sees him sometimes too much like a nephew (he is almost the same age and very similar in temperment and personality to her beloved niece, so I can see how she identifies him this way) sometimes, and forgets that he isn't. She let's her niece have a drink when she visits, but hadn't thought through that the niece doesn't get in a car afterwords.

Didn't plant a seed on the unhealthy relationship of spending so much time with these two and other students/ex-students, but maybe she'll mention our conversation to her therapist and she'll pick up on it. My therapist gets really animated about how bad a place those show her to be in. They are in the same office. After meeting with my therapist this morning I wouldn't be surprised if there were a raised eyebrow to my wife's therapist (we've signed releases that they can use their judgement on sharing important info that they use very discretely and in a way that is transparent to us).

I relayed what my wife's account of our past sitch was out of yesterday's conversation, and the therapist was really surprised by how much W has twisted the reality of the past (the therapist has been there through it all, and knows how much I agonized and struggled with some of my decisions that were made to support my W's career at the expense of mine, and she wanted to make sure that I knew that she saw how big a blow it must be to hear my W turn those into character flaws that exploited her (my W).

We talked about my S6's divorce discussion with me yesterday too. We both realized that he is coming to me to open up about the subject, not my wife. My wife has always been the soother they have learned to turn to. Not that I'm bad at that, but I didn't nurse them for 2+ years, and my wife has been exceptional up to recently. We both admitted that he probably senses that my W isn't really there for him right now, at least on this matter, and it says a lot about how good my relationship is with S, that he can come to me. She thought I handled the discussion well, reminded me of some rules of the road in dealing with kids on such topics.

She also thinks that my S3's recent resistance to sitting on the potty, to having accidents, and wanting back in diapers is his way of acting out his distress over the situation. We both agreed that there really isn't much to tell him, other than be reassuringly comforting, and that we shouldn't add stress over the accidents and resistance. He will work through it. I shared that with my W later, and she said she had been having the same thoughts, and agreed on the course of action my therapist suggested.

A good outcome overall, but I'm still just tired. You never realize until you get run through the wringer, just how tired dealing with powerful emotions can make you. Glad I have a long workout scheduled for this afternoon.

[asitis]

So, here is a question especially for the vets.

When do you challenge the revisionist history?

My IC was more agitated today than I've ever seen her about my W's re-writing history when I relayed our conversation from yesterday. She's sat there with me while I agonized before and after about several of the career choices that I made ultimately choosing to support my W's career and the good of my family over my own, and now I get blasted by W for exploiting her.

OK, wife felt unappreciated and I listened and validated W rather than trying to correct the record.

Also, W's missing out on all the things I've contributed financially to the family, as if I wasn't working (sometimes more hours for less money) during the years before our first child, or the amount of the small inheritance I got when my dad died that I put to the support of my family (paying off a car, down payment on our house, furnishings, kids college savings, paying down other debts, almost all of the baby accoutrement, and so on). Yes, I also bought some exercise equipment, stereo, camera, tools, and not all of those were necessities or wise decisions in retrospect. And, when we moved so that I could take a better paying job so she could have a year off for our first son, that inheritance paid all the costs of the move and covered the difference between our combined income before and my income during that off year.

When we decided together that we wanted one of us to stay home with our sons for two years each, it was a no brainer that it should be me given her higher income. The lost income was covered out of the remainder of my inheritance as well as gifts from my mother.

My IC knows a lot of this, and she was really irritated that I didn't fight back to set the record straight. I told her that my W needed to vent her anger, her hurt, and be heard and validated, and that at the moment while I had to bite my tongue that was more important than the lack of fairness in my W's account. I told IC, that it did have a result in getting my W to soften, and she clearly felt heard.

IC said that at some point soon, I should challenge the re-writing of that aspect of the history, especially since many of those choices cost me a lot emotionally and were done for my W's and my family's benefit.

So, when is it appropriate to challenge the re-writing of history? When is it fine to stand up and challenge? I've let her be heard and validated. I've shown her I take her feelings and her concerns seriously. Do you wait until they come back to the table? Do you just gently lay out some basic facts that are being missed or misconstrued by her? Do I just let it slide? Do I take continue to take care of some of the real problems in the financial area to show that I really take the concerns seriously (I do and they do need addressed, and I have been addressing them) before bringing this up?

I do have a long list of things that I paid for, and despite her greater earning power, it is at least as much of the joint property. And, unlike her, I have the records to piece even more of this together.

What are the vets' views?

[Bob723]

So, here is a question especially for the vets.

When do you challenge the revisionist history?

Hey asitis, that is a terrific question! I am waiting for a response, too.

Hang in there my friend.

Bob

[asitis]

As I think more about it and talk with others about it, I do think I need to challenge my W's view that I exploited her. I've acknowledged her feeling unappreciated and her anger (read back a few posts for full details). I've acknowledged that I participated in making mistakes, but I'm really tired of this gross re-writing of reality.

I was the one who agonized about making various career decisions that put the good of my family and wife ahead of myself, and now these are seen as my mistakes that exploited her and that I need to bear the financial responsibility for so that she can get on with her life.

She fails to see that I worked and contributed to the family up through our mutual decision for me to be a stay at home dad. I sunk the remainder of my inheritance into covering the shortages in income for the one and a half years that she took off to have our two sons. I sunk another big chunk into being able to have a down payment on our houses, bought a big chunk of our furniture, almost all of the baby furnishings, and helped pay down some of her debts, just like she helped pay down some of mine. For years before and after marriage, she used my car that I maintained and covered the insurance on. When we bought our first car together, I made the payments and used part of my inheritance to pay it off. I used another chunk to fund the lion's share of our kids' college education savings.

She railed against having to work and then come home to watch the kids so I could get some exercise in, but I watched one or both boys without a single break from 8 to 4 or 5 every day, while she had lunch and other breaks, as well as the career I was denying myself. I admit that I should have helped out more during those years, and that I did not express my appreciation or respect enough then. But when she would complain that I wasn't helping out enough with the house cleaning and child care, she would not acknowledge the value of all the things I did do (taking care of the computers, the cars, the house maintenance, the lawn, the snow, the taxes, the investments, the schedule coordination, the gift buying, making sure the kids got doctors appointments and went, etc., etc.).

As you can tell, I'm getting more frustrated as the days pass from our exploitation "discussion."

I know that part of this is my need to feel heard and treated fairly. But, I want to raise again to the vets, when is it appropriate to challenge the misrepresentation of R history?

My IC who has been there while I agonized over many of the career decisions that I ultimately made for the good of family and W, really disagreed with my letting her revisionist history stand without challenge, even though my defending myself in the past was part of an unhealthy dynamic where I didn't listen or respond to my W's wants and needs. OK, I'm better at that now, and I recognize that the point isn't to win an argument, but I'm feeling more like allowing this to stand is to allow her to continue to deny reality and responsibility and will not lead to her moving toward reconsideration.

So, opinions? Let it go? Respond? If the latter, how best to do it? My DB coach is unavailable when I am available to call until after the 27th, so she isn't a resources.

[Sotto]

I tend towards letting it go. Would it help get you closer to your goal of R? No - also, it sounds very much like a scorecard, which probably isn't helpful. I have been through many 'it's unfair' phases and I don't think trying to do anything about them with your W is a good idea.

Maybe do nothing until you next speak to your coach & discuss it then?

[asitis]

I lean that way too, although I've always been triggered by being judged unfairly (a childhood issue from my parents). Some of this is need to vent. But there is a legitimate question here about when one might stand up for oneself and calling the spouse on gross revisionist history and distorted view. Is there a time to do some of this before they decide they are going to come back to the table? Is there a way to do this that pushes toward the goals (you can read on mine earlier)?

Does allowing them to persist in their fantasy at a certain point become enabling? Does it allow them to avoid feeling the consequences of their choices?

My W is hurting. She needs to vent. There is a lot of anger, much or which is not really at me, but is being targeted at me. There is a lot of shifting blame for the pain of her decisions to want to leave the M and break the family up. I recognize that, and agree that listening and validating are the primary tools and lots of STFU smoothies during this phase. Still, I'm resistant to catch-all, blanket rules that lack subtlety and nuance. I recognize that for many people, this gets them in less trouble because they miss the nuance and subtlety. So maybe I'm opening up a can of worms best left unopened here where someone may come in and read a recommendation to a specific sitch and think oh, I'll do that when there are some significance differences between my sitch and theirs.

I do want to run this by my DB coach, and I am frustrated that I have to wait to do so. I also recognize that there is a lot of accumulated wisdom here, and I'd at least like to be thinking through this running up to my coaching session.

I suspect I'll have a few more rants and venting to go before I've worked this out of my system.

[CaliGuy]

I know in the middle of my crisis I had to wrestle with this. Asitis .... is it more important to be right or happy?

What I mean is .. her feelings are her feelings, feelings are neither right nor wrong, its how she feels ... granted she is bent on whatever it is that has consistently been eating at her, her perception of what happened, her perception of her history conflicts with your perception of your history. Something looking back I am sure you would have preferred you were both equipped with the proper communication skills to get it out in the open and deal with it. While you two are at odds, not 'in this together' does setting her and the record straight help you here?
One might argue that you can stand your ground and possibly gained some respect .. but reading your sitch I don't see it that way .. if anything your posts leave a bit of judgement of your W on the table ... just the vibe I get if I am being honest here.
That being said .. I am more a fan of truth darts here and there more than I would ever be on board with "Let me tell you exactly where you are wrong again ... time after time" ... This is just combative behavior in my opinion and counter productive .. let alone I do not see the DB principles behind it. Possibly if you enter into Piecing then you could share "Hey when you felt I took advantage of you, that hurt, I do see how you can feel that but I feel I sacrificed myself for the greater cause and here is why...."

Bottom line, does setting her straight fix any of this?

As 25 would ask Is it more important to be right or happy?

[WhyUs]

Ask yourself, "what are my goals?" Now, will confronting your wife help you reach your goals? Down the road you will have this opportunity and the time may be appropriate then. However, "you have to crawl before you walk." Your therapist is not in the DB program and will most certainly take a different approach. I, like you would love to hear from the vets on this as well.

[Vanilla]

Asitis

There could be value for you in creating a scorecard for the Fins. A spreadsheet where you outline for yourself the Fins.

Let me clear, this isn't a rub your nose in it thing, or a there is the actual history issue.

But just a here are the facts for yourself. Sometimes things surprise you. It wasn't until I did this exercise that I fully understood how much H was spending on trivia for himself and his compulsions whilst I paid the bills.

INTEL is vital in my opinion

V

[asitis]

Thanks all.

I actually have a lot of this information, as I have all the financial records and can see what was spent, and as she moved toward I want a D, I anticipated at some point we might have a conflict over this kind of thing. If it comes to dividing assets, of course we do this evenly. But I wanted to be forearmed with information in case we do get into conflict in D proceedings.

BTW Cali, I want to be both right and happy. Not really.

I agree that piecing is where to address hurt feelings. Also, as we work through a mediator on separating finances, some of this will inevitably come out, and there will be a neutral party in the room.

The one thing I'm still a bit uncomfortable with is the way in which the one-sided story gets fed to her family and therapist, who then stoke the flames even more, and so on. If she repeats this very revisionist history to her family, they push her to stand up for herself, support her vision of herself as the victim, and encourage her to get out. The therapist does the same. This is right out of ch. 1 in both books. The question is, are there times where times where a little dose of reality helps to check this stoking the flames that goes on between the WAS and the well-meaning therapist and family? It is one of the frustrations that you see this process going on, and rather than helping WAS deal with their feelings, they push the process along to M destruction.

Obviously there is the problem of WAS not buying into the challenge and digging in heels, which is another pushing the process along in a bad way. I still think that when both Ss are seeing IC, it would be really good for them to sit down with the other S's therapist for 4-5 sessions of reality check. Not going to happen, but a fantasy that would likely save a lot of Ms.

I've gotten a lot of my venting out, and can let things go for now. Thanks again all.

[ralphy]

Just stopping in to say hello As.

Not much to add or help other than to let you know I'm right here with you.

But do keep in mind the chapter about speaking to family, friends, etc. Know that they will tell her everything she wants to hear and support her unconditionally. Nothing you can do about it, nor should you focus on that right now.

[WhyUs]

Asitis,

I know exactly what you mean by famy and the therapist stoking the flames. They only hear her side of the story. Then they tell her to stick up for herself. Your right, its straight out of chapter one. I wish there was a way for them to see the reality of things. However, there does not seem to be a way to get through to them without causing more problems. It is very frustrating.

The only positive out of this is that it confirms her perspective, her reality. We can use this to gain a better understanding of how she feels and pehaps make changes within ourselves that might alter her perspective on the situation. We cant say it to her because she will not listen. We have to show it with our actions. When she sees the changes and begins to question her perspective she will inevitably ask the perspective of her family. Then, ideally, they will also question the situation. This of course will take time.

[CaliGuy]

Asitis

Don't get me started on therapists .... W was going through her MLC, at the time, I assumed Bi-polar which is not a far cry off and given SIL and MIL both diagnosed was not like I grasped for straws there. Long story short W went into IC about 3 years ago, 6 months in IC started planting seeds 'do what makes you happy regardless of hurt feelings' Enter OM on a EA level
Last year about this time her IC suggested I come into a session, I was under the impression it was a MC type event, little did I know W and IC both knew about OM and it was an exit A .... 20 minutes in after a fight W created ... IC stated "I think your two should separate"

Ironically I was looking for LFMT in the area about 6 months ago and her name popped up, I did at least write a review letting people know she was not pro marriage.

[asitis]

Asitis,

I know exactly what you mean by famy and the therapist stoking the flames. They only hear her side of the story. Then they tell her to stick up for herself. Your right, its straight out of chapter one. I wish there was a way for them to see the reality of things. However, there does not seem to be a way to get through to them without causing more problems. It is very frustrating.

The only positive out of this is that it confirms her perspective, her reality. We can use this to gain a better understanding of how she feels and pehaps make changes within ourselves that might alter her perspective on the situation. We cant say it to her because she will not listen. We have to show it with our actions. When she sees the changes and begins to question her perspective she will inevitably ask the perspective of her family. Then, ideally, they will also question the situation. This of course will take time.

Thanks. Yes, there is always a nugget of truth in the distortion if you look for it, and it definitely give some clues as to tweaking your plan. And, not reacting the way they've come to expect is one of the big 180s that you need to show them time and time again. And, it is hard sometimes to recognize all of this in the midst of the frustration. And, it is important to recognize how far I've come that I was able to (1) not respond, but listen and validate, etc.; (2) see the nuggets and consider what they were telling me despite my being hit with the resentment, hurt, and frustration; and (3) able to just be with those turbulent emotions for a while, identify all of them, recognize how much were due to my propensities to be triggered by certain patterns in my life, and having built up safe places and people to healthily vent.

The funny thing is how much power my W still gives me in all this. Both by making so much of these mutual problems my fault, but also that I know that she is expecting me to be the one to move this project forward. She is expecting me to come up with most of the ideas on how to fix things. This has been one of the patterns: make me the capable, reliable father she wished she had, and then I can either fix things or be to blame for letting her down by not living up to that desire in her. It has been one of my greatest challenges in this. How to get her to take more of the responsibility when we are both in the habit of falling into this pattern, but also recognizing the reality that this is a weaning process and that I can't just say you want me to be X but that isn't healthy and you need to deal with it, any more than I can be the one to show her the distortions in her thinking on a whole range of things.

This is definitely not the path for the timid.

[asitis]

Asitis

Don't get me started on therapists .... W was going through her MLC, at the time, I assumed Bi-polar which is not a far cry off and given SIL and MIL both diagnosed was not like I grasped for straws there. Long story short W went into IC about 3 years ago, 6 months in IC started planting seeds 'do what makes you happy regardless of hurt feelings' Enter OM on a EA level
Last year about this time her IC suggested I come into a session, I was under the impression it was a MC type event, little did I know W and IC both knew about OM and it was an exit A .... 20 minutes in after a fight W created ... IC stated "I think your two should separate"

Ironically I was looking for LFMT in the area about 6 months ago and her name popped up, I did at least write a review letting people know she was not pro marriage.

Wow, that is definitely not a pro. I have a better feel for my W's IC, but I know how hard it is to (1) see what is really going on when you are dealing with counseling someone on an R and both parties are not in the room presenting the full picture and dynamics; and (2) that even when they are trying, there is no guarantee that the patient is hearing them when they plant seeds or challenge them. My IC, who recommended her IC for her, does give me some confidence that her IC would not be doing X or Y when I raise a concern and she can speak to it.

One of the biggest problems I see, is that there are so many issues for my W to work on, as she hasn't been going to a therapist for years like I have, that it just takes time to unravel all the strands.

Glad you were able to warn others about your W's IC. Her joint meeting with you was totally unprofessional. It is one thing for a MC to after meeting with the couple a few times suggest a few individual sessions with each to allow a safe space for each to open up without the inhibition of the spouse, it is another for someone who has been a long-time IC to pretend to become the couple's MC. You always refer out if that is your role. Always. Now, I'm sure this therapist didn't see her role here as an MC, but that is a sign that she wasn't very good, because there is no way that this isn't how you wouldn't see it that way, and it is totally unfair and unprofessional to make judgements on an M based on one session with one spouse and years with the other. Glad you look to be surviving despite all that "professional help."

[asitis]

Another interesting wrinkle that brings one of those nagging issues to the fore.

A new woman in a group I'm involved in who shares a lot of interest, including some of the intellectual interests that are harder to find in acquaintances. She's got the equivalent of an MA/MS in psychology (she's Danish, so I'm not sure what they call it exactly over there, as their higher ed is very different from ours in some ways that I'm still working out), and I'm going back to get my MA in mental health counseling. As a political scientist with a focus on political economics, I've always been interested in Denmark and the other Scandinavian countries. So, lots to talk about before and after group.

Don't know her full sitch, but single mom of two young kids, and as I am open about my sitch in this group (my weekly Buddhist meditation and discussion group) she knows that I'm S, wife has asked for D, but that I'm standing for my M. She clearly is both being respectful of that, but is also clearly drawn to me and trying to connect (just FB messaged me asking for reading advice - I'm one of the most knowledgeable in our group and probably the most serious practitioner as well as tending to naturally end up being a leader of anything I get involved in). Would enjoy talking more, esp. outside the group setting, and potentially becoming friends.

I've always tended to be more comfortable being friends with women generally, as most guy friends are too shallow (no offense guys, as it is part that we've been socialized in ways that makes it hard for many of us to open up and go deep with other guys, and it is as much me as the guy friends) in their friendships. Add to that, not being a bit unusual in my interests (intellectual topics, philosophy, Buddhism, human psychology, international politics, and then things like native plant gardening, nature and ecological systems -- yes, I'm definitely a bit of a nerd), so that it is not always easy to find friends with whom I can really talk about things I deeply enjoy and am passionate about.

But in the current sitch, stepping into friendships that have any depth with a woman is both awkward and fraught with peril. Awkward in part because I don't want to give the wrong impression to other woman, esp. if they have interest in potentially something more that will be nagging at them. Fraught with peril both because I recognize my vulnerability to pursuit and getting wants met that I've had to stifle for a while, and because I don't want to hurt the other woman. I know that no matter who frank I am, just getting involved in a stimulating friendship can seem like leading on. There is, after all, a passion and intensity even in friendships. There is also the mutual support and care when two people who have some relationship similarities (failed/failing Rs and families, young kids, etc.) inevitably share, listen, and empathize/sympathize. It can be heady stuff.

My tendency during this time has been to avoid pursuing a friendship like this, but it makes me sad and a bit frustrated to miss such opportunities that I might otherwise develop and enjoy if my M were healed and strong or it had truly failed and was time to move on.

I know that it is good to realize that you can be attractive to people that you might be attracted to in return - the knowledge that all is not lost which you might intellectually know but actual real-life confirmation helps to feel that. There is also the very weird realization in situations like this that I could end up in a relationship with someone substantially younger than my W, who is already 7 years my junior. This young woman is very clearly still well below her 40s. Now, most people guess I'm in my mid-30s (I know hate me, but my family doesn't get grey or wrinkles until very late - I do still get acne, if that is a consolation), so it isn't surprising to draw the occasional interest. I know that for many men, attracting much younger women is an ego boost, and I won't deny some of this, but it just is something I didn't imagine and am not all that comfortable with. I have a natural suspicion of such relationships: daddy issues and what not. I know that you get used to it eventually (as I did w/ my W, who was the biggest age gap I ever dated), but it still seems a bit weird to me.

Ah well. Part of the fun of standing up for your M. Better to have new friends of interest who you keep a bit of distance from, and I'll enjoy where my life is.

[asitis]

Tomorrow I head off for two weeks of "retreat" at the Buddhist monastery I go to regularly. I put the retreat in quotes, as it is not a peaceful, relaxing vacation. We sit for many hours each day, and spend most of the rest of the time in some form of practice.

Sunday is my 12th anniversary. I'm glad I'll be out of town for it.

I won't be on the forum for these two weeks, as I'll be offline that whole time. Don't worry that I've fallen of the face of the Earth because I've stopped posting here or other people's threads.

Until then, good luck to all of you & know that those of you who I've been following or have been stopping by will be in my thoughts and prayers. May these tough times help you grow and bring you and your families happiness!

[PigPen]

Cheers As, drop into your meditations. All the way in. I would imagine this will be a 12 rounder with your mind, but once you break it, peace will find you.

Can't wait to hear what comes out of your depths after two weeks.

Be well my friend, happy sitting.

PP

[Vanilla]

Waiting to hear about the retreat

V

[PigPen]

Miss you on here As, hope you're communicating with the divine every time your eyes close and you drop in.

Thinking of you.

PP

[asitis]

Hi All,

I got back from the retreat (you end up doing more work at these than at home, so they really aren't a retreat in the typical sense) last Saturday afternoon. W had painted the kitchen while I was gone (we had talked about it, and she let me know while I was away that she was doing it), and done some clean up on the back porch. It was a bit disorienting to be home. Anyway, light bulb went off that, while she has said this is for getting to house ready to sell next spring, that these have been things she wanted to do for a while (and yes, I kept offering on the painting, but she had put me off repeatedly, because I think she didn't want to work closely with me). She had also recently transplanted some hostas to a bed I had prepared. I've been in work mode all retreat, so I throw myself into working on the house since she and the kids weren't around.

We're on an acre, so that's lots of mowing. Did that. Did a ton of weeding, including the bed with the hostas, which was becoming overcome with weeds. Since we come in through the back porch mostly, I really worked on making the back yard entry look great. I also continued on the back porch project, getting the most visible section of it totally cleared out and cleaned. Then I got the house and apartment cleaned up.

W noticed and appreciated all the work. She had to come back over to do laundry and pack for the week at the apartment the next day, and we had time to talk a bit. She actually asked me how my time at the monastery was, and I got to ask about her vacation (which seems to have been a lot of stress, as her family was not all that helpful giving her breaks from the kids, and there were some difficult interactions). Listened, validated, empathized.

We arranged to work on putting the kitchen cabinet doors back on Wednesday. Worked well together in close proximity, casual chatting, relaxed. A little distracting when her thigh or breast was against my arm or hand (I was mostly holding the doors while she screwed the hinges onto the frames). Hard to say if it was intentional, but that she didn't pull away or tense was different.

I did more weeding those days, which she noticed.

It has been hard to work on the house beyond basics, in part because she has shown little interest and the need to give her space by not being around while she is there and having to take care of the kids when I'm there. Still, it is clear that this is an important way to change the dynamic. I talked about this with my coach, and she agreed with my assessment that this helped W start wanting to live in the house and picturing herself happy there with my as a partner in the project. Plus, gardening is one of our mutual interests. That she was now open to me being around to work on the house was a change that meant I could get to this. There were other mutual projects regarding the house that could be either for getting the house ready for sale or getting it the way we wanted it. These would allow for more casual conversation and interaction, team work, and as my coach has put it "everyone wants to be part of a winning team."

I had an extra day with the kids, so today was our exchange. I told her that I was planning to come over Friday and Saturday afternoon to continue working on the house, and she said that was great. I was picking up a book that I was reading (Thich Nhat Hahn's No Mud, No Lotus) to pack it while we were chatting. Told her it was a great book and a very quick read, and I really enjoyed it. She volunteered that she was reading Terrance Real's How Do I Get Through to You?. It was my copy, and I had suggested it to her last summer, as it is a great book on marriage and relationships. She had balked then. We talked about how good it was. I didn't show my surprise, but the fact that she was not only reading a relationship book, but one that I had recommended, and that she had volunteered it to me, is definitely a new twist. Don't want to read too much into that, but she hasn't wanted to read anything but fiction for 10 months or so, and definitely nothing on relationships. Doesn't change anything, as I still just need to sit back and wait for her to broach anything she wants.

So, we had W asking about me and my life. W spending time with me, seeming fairly relaxed. W volunteering that she read an R book she knew I read and liked.

I'll end the post there, and try to post on my adventures the last couple weeks in another post. I'll also try to get caught up on people's threads over the next couple days, now that I'm not getting my kid fix (I really missed those two guys & it was great to be with them again).

[PigPen]

Welcome back As!! Was just checking in on you when I caught your update.

Sounds like things are positive on your end with your W, can't wait to hear about your adventures in the monastery.

Enjoy your kids, we'll all be here posting when you get back. You know the normal tales about our lives of opulence; the wild parties with entertainment moguls, super models, and leaders of industry. No biggie.

Glad you're well, you've been missed.

PP

[asitis]

Thank PP.

The monastery was a great experience. I've done the weekend intensive "retreat" (called Sesshin in the Zen tradition), but never the summer or winter intensives (called Ango). There was a sesshin the middle weekend, although it wasn't as intense as usual, as we had a special ceremony for promotion of one of the priests, and I was part of the ceremony. That meant missing some of the normal sittings to reherse, and the ceremony itself.

Anyway, Ango is very different from sesshin. Sesshin gets you up at 4:30, and you meditate starting at 5. Except for a short work period after each meal and a slightly longer one on Saturday afternoon, you are doing sitting meditation or the walking meditation that breaks up the sitting. During the Ango, the emphasis is switched. We get up an hour later, and only sit 3 40 min. periods. We have a morning assembly where we go over a reading with the abbot and discuss it, and then there is morning work period in addition to the daily afternoon work period. Also, as there are many fewer of us, you usually have some kind of formal role to perform throughout the day. I ended up in charge of meals a couple of the days, which also made me head server during the oryoky (formal silent eating ritual). Both were quite a challenge.

A couple things happened during the two weeks. First, I really found that with just enough sitting to anchor the work practice, I just fell into working mindfully without thought or effort. While the work was often tiring, I really came to appreciate the depth of practice working mindfully. I also had been struggling a bit with my meditation every since going on vacation. I got out of the routine, was dealing with an overly busy mind, and finding it difficult to sit for more than 10-15 minutes at a time without getting antsy. When I got to the monastery, everything just settled down. I've always tended toward a busy mind and the 40 minute sitting periods can be quite tough for me to not really want to end. This time, for the most part, my mind calmed relatively easily, and most sitting periods were not the usual battles to hold out until the bell rings.

In general, I've noticed how I'm finally settling and able to keep a calm, mindful frame of mind. This has carried over so far during the week I've been home. As I'm still off work for the summer, I just brought my work practice home, attending to the projects that have been building. W has definitely taken notice and been appreciative.

The other development was toward the end of the Ango. I had my first erotic dream featuring my W in a long, long time. The next day, I just had this insight that I still really loved my W & that I had been building a wall to protect myself. I have not had much desire or warmth for my wife in past months, as she had not been giving me much reason. I'm still detached, but I am not as protected emotionally. I know that means I will also feel more pain if things get worse, but it feels right to not have that wall up. It was effecting my ability to be present with all my feelings with everyone important in my life.

The weird thing is that it actually gives me more patience, and the ability to have more compassion toward my wife and be more detached. Hard to explain, but that's the way it feels.

So, I'm in a very good place right now.

[Defacto]

This is incredible to read. It sounds like you are in a very good place right now. I'm pleased to hear that you had such an important couple of weeks.

[asitis]

So this afternoon I went over to the house to work on the yard. Really went to town on a couple of the beds that needed some weeding and TLC, as well as some mowing. W was out with the kids when I got there, but they came home while I was working.

After I was done, I came in to get some water. We touched base on my taking over with the kids. I mentioned that I got most of the way done with the front bed, and that I hoped to finish this week. I also said, I hadn't forgotten that there are still some things to do on the back porch, but I'm doing the outside work while the weather is nice. She said the back porch looks so much better, as if to say she is satisfied with that project. We chatted about how we tried to get too many new garden beds in at once and how they got away from us. She said, in the future "we" need to only put in one bed at a time and keep it weeded while the plants get established.

I didn't comment, but it is the first time in a while she referenced us together doing things on the house in the future. I didn't react at all to it, and I know that even while she was moving toward wanting an S, she would occasionally talk that way. Still, there has been no "we" when it comes to talking about future plans, and the plan was/is to put the house on the market next Spring. Hard for "us" to be putting in new garden beds if we are S or D and have sold the house. Could have just been a slip in speech, and it doesn't mean that there is a change afoot. Still, combined with her bringing up reading a book on marriage and relationships that I had recommended a long time ago, and our working in close proximity on the kitchen with body contact that would have triggered her boundaries not long ago, things are at least not escallating and may be opening up to reconsideration.

No matter what, the house is looking better, I am happier, and just keep keeping on.

[Vanilla]

Asitis

The retreat seems to have been very useful.

Can you tell me what it involved? Would you recommend this type of retreat.

V

[asitis]

The retreat makes sense if you've got a regular daily meditation practice and have done a shorter weekend retreat first to see how you handle it. I would never recommend someone just jumping into that intense a practice situation without creating some emotional space and peace through daily practice.

Most Buddhist traditions have some form of retreat intensive practice, mine just happens to be one of the Zen traditions. I'd been sitting a lot on my own & with a weekly sitting group before I did my first sesshin (a weekend retreat that is focused on lots and lots of seated meditation - Saturday totals 10 40 minute sitting periods with 5 10 minute walking meditation periods. There are formal oryoky meals, where you sit on your cushion too (if there are enough people to do it that way - some months we sit at a table for those). Plus a couple hour work period, and a meeting with the teacher, 3 services, and some chores after meals. It is physically exhausting and can be an emotional roller coaster (esp. that first one), as you are stuck just sitting there with nothing to do but face yourself and your issues.

Ango is a 2-3 month intensive practice period, but not as intense as the shorter sesshin. It grew out of the gathering of monks in the historical Buddha's time during monsoon season. During Ango, you set 2-3 40 minute sitting periods. You also have a group assembly to work on some reading together. Then there is a morning and evening work period. And, most people are assigned a role to do daily (like ring the bells, attend the abbot, take care of the alters, assist the head cook, serve meals). There is a bit of free time every day, and every day with a 4 or 9 in the date is a "personal" day, with a relaxed schedule to take care of your laundry, clean your rooms, oryoki bowls, etc.

Some centers will allow you to come for just part of an Ango (like mine did), but others are strict about only allowing people who are there the first day and will stay the whole period. Some centers charge a set fee, others (lke mine) work on a voluntary gift donation system. Some require that you have sat the shorter sesshin before can come to Ango, others do not.

My suggestion is to find a local Buddhist group and get your feet wet, decide if it is for you, and then explore the options for deepening your practice. For me, it has made my therapy sessions much more useful, and it has really allowed me to grow as a person, work on my big emotional triggers, and to really be able to settle down and look at life differently. It definitely is not a quick fix, as it took me over a year of almost daily work and at least 6 weekend retreats before I really can say I settled into the good place I am. I still get jolted and taken on the roller coaster, it is now more the kiddie coaster than the one with loop the loops made to scare the crap out of you.

Ask here, or pm me if you have questions or want to talk more about this.

[asitis]

So, not a whole lot to report.

Was taking the kids to dinner Sunday, and my coach recommended when I was doing something like this that I invite my wife along last minute (as long as I can truly not show disappointment if she declines). Texted her to invite her with the expectation she would. Her phone sometimes doesn't get good reception in the apartment (0-1 bars), so she didn't even get the text until the next morning. Still she thanked me for the invite. I figure it makes clear that I'm open to such things. Now I'll like low on it and see if she invites me at any point in the next couple weeks, and maybe try again.

My coach said this is not a form of pursuit btw - I asked.

She had the How Can I Get Through to You?book I mentioned earlier on the table by her rocking chair, so she is still reading it. I'm curious if she will want to discuss it, but I'll wait for her to initiate.

We have a lot of negotiating schedules coming up, as we both start back teaching in a couple weeks, I start back to my evening classes, and the kids start back to school or day care. I made a list of things that I saw as issues we'll need to discuss. I also got my student loan finalized for the semester and am working on the deferrment for a past loan that is at 3% interest (I'd rather pay the interest on this new loan @ almost 6%). That and having day care drop about $150 per month because of my student status will take some of the financial pressure off her/us. She hasn't brought up the mediator about disentangling our finances since the "exploited" meeting a month ago. Strange. I keep plugging away taking care of my end of things on that front.

It was my FiLs b-day Monday, and I had the kids. So I called and let the kids wish their grandpa happy birthday. My W reported that he was tickled when she came over to watch the kids for the evening - I had a movie discussion group I'm doing, and neither of us could find a babysitter. I made home made hummus and my new home made pita (she hadn't had that before), as well as fruit salad (cantelope, honeydew, and red grapes). She was supposed to eat before she came over, but I discovered at the last minute that she had finished off the garlic and hadn't told me, and her leftovers had gone bad, so I said if she brought garlic from the apartment, there would be plenty for her to join us, which she did.

Today was switch day. Before I left I floated a balloon about now that we have really straightened up the back porch, and since we come into the house that way almost always, I was wondering if we put our heads together and think about ways we could make that entrance more welcoming and less utilitarian. She was interested in doing so. Again, if we are just going to sell the house in the Spring, it isn't something to spend time on (potential buyers will come in the front - which I also have ideas on). She was tired & not all that friendly or chatty, but still, she bit on the back porch idea. Not going to make too much of it, but she keeps talking like she plans to be in the house longer than 9 months, yet she knows she can't maintain the house by herself and we can't continue to pay the extra $400 per month that the mortgage is over another apartment's rent now that we have to rent an apartment under the separation. Not sure if she just isn't thinking it through, or if she is starting to imagine some other scenario than moving forward toward D.

Still, it is noticeable different than the way she talked just a month ago.

Now, I'm back in the apartment & sans kids for a few days, so I'll try to catch up on some people's threads.

[PigPen]

Sounds like a good day As. Your working your sitch with a high level of slow, deliberate, DB glacial finesse that's inspiring. I like the porch idea and how you're showing your W both sides of the housing coin. On one hand, she can have a nicer house, on the other hand, she's going to be walking away from a nicer house!

Glad you're back and posting, it's good to hear your updates and how your managing yourself. Keep at it my friend, you're making progress.

PP

[asitis]

Thanks. It was a good day yesterday, although I still miss the warmth in her voice. It's been a bit hard to do GAL stuff lately, as August seems to be the pause before the storm of the end of summer. Not much to do, and I'm not doing a pottery class because I was away & to show good faith on the financial side, I agreed to forego that luxury for a while. I did cut out a bit quick yesterday, telling her I had to go because I had plans. I did, just not going out with people, but things I wanted to do in the apartment in my free time. GAL, but in but no social.

Another development w/ the W is that besides her reading a relationship book, she has started doing her art (painting/drawing). We brought the easel, cart for her art supplies, and her supplies (all of which I bought for her as a gift many Christmases & Birthdays ago) over to the apartment when we separated, but they've sat untouched since. Yesterday, when I got here, they were moved over into better light & she had two drawings (one done) that she'd done in the last week.

Sounds like she is coming out of something (depression?) lately. I have no idea what that will mean for our R, or whether my DBing has been part of the catalyst for that change. Still, it is good to see her doing things I know she loves and not just distracting herself.

[asitis]

Had to run over to the house, as I left a medication there. Got to compliment my wife on the drawings she has done and how much it always amazes me that she can do that so well. Our S6 is a small image in one, but I picked up on it, and told said that she captured something about the way he stands when he is pondering. We talked about that & neither of us can actually describe it fully, but she captured it so that despite the image being only a couple inches high & facing away from viewer, it was still so obviously our S. On that good note, I took my leave.

[asitis]

So after some good days, there seems to always be a let down. It's almost like clock work. I think part is that I'm having to work on schedule changes with W because the fall semester w/ both of us working and me taking classes will require some changes. It does get frustrating having to do this. Not that we fight over things, it's just a drag.

Also, I'm going to end up with potentially less time & not being free times that I have some regular GAL activities that I want to continue. Plus we're having to ponder after school day care for the older S, which neither of us likes or think will be good for him (he has some struggles and needs the quiet down time of home and a parent).

On top of that, I'm facing the stress of an incredibly busy semester with classes, less time with the kids, and no end in sight on the S (That's both good and bad right? But even if you tell yourself the good signs lately shouldn't cause you to get your hopes up, they still do). I had more contact w/ the W than usual today (mostly over schedule & talking through an offer I had that would affect her), and no more hopeful signs to perk me. Plus, I say her with the kids out today, and kids act like they don't want to be with me because they worry that I'll be taking them from their mom. It's always hard to deal with that, as it shouldn't be like that for the kids.

W talking more like the current arrangement is just the new norm & she's fine with it didn't help. Maybe she's not feeling that way, but she's not letting on anything other than that. I know you can't tell and shouldn't read into it, but it still pops into your head.

Anyway, a bit of a downer of a day. Nothing much to do tonight. Wishing I had some friends to call up and do something with, but while I have more GAL activities, none have produced friends wo/ families that would just be up for doing something.

Done being Eeyore for now.

[asitis]

One of the things I've been pondering is how to proceed on the issue raised by my W a month ago about using a mediator to better separate our finances. I agreed to that and I mentioned that I would contact the person who had given me a referral to a local mediator w/ a counseling background rather than a legal. I did follow up, but have yet to receive a response from that person with the referral info.

A month has gone by. W hasn't brought it up, and I've mentioned some financial matters that I've worked on to our mutual benefit in the meantime (like processing some dependent care reimbursement that she gets taken out of her paycheck - yes, I know that she could do it, but it was my idea, I know how it is done, and I had said I would before thinking it through).

So, should I raise the issue by telling her I haven't heard back from the person with the referral? Or just say nothing? It is an issue, and we do need to keep addressing the finances. It is something that I have concerns about too (i.e., this isn't just something she has issues about w/ me, but that I have issues w/ her actions and behavior and habits).

I'll take it up w/ my DB coach next week, but I'm curious what others' thoughts are so that I can think it through more before I have that call.

[Fogg]

The art supplies sounds like something in my sitch also. I bought W a bunch of baking supplies and a nice kitchenaid mixer to use for Christmas this past year. She loves baking and recently did some of it.

But even if you tell yourself the good signs lately shouldn't cause you to get your hopes up, they still do

W talking more like the current arrangement is just the new norm & she's fine with it didn't help.

Yep, you will continue to do that for a while until the disappointment hurts too much, then you do is less often.

That's something that has annoyed me quite a bit but I'm actually starting to accept it lately. Its this weird dynamic about letting go. She sees the current sitch as the norm and don't like it but pretend things are fine. Its not until you finally let go and are fine with it being the norm that they may realize they don't like it either.

I'm not sure on the financial matters so I would just talk to your coach. If its something that can wait a week let it go until she brings it up.

[tkdmme]

I'm Kind Of IN THE Same situation. W wants to split the finances. However she can't afford to make the house payment or the the kids school payment. She asked for this and then said it's not fair for me to have more money than her after bills are paid. I am in control of both of our money now. Thinking about letting her make the first move on taking her pay out of the family account. She will be shocked to see how much she contributes to the bills. She has thousands in credit card and school payments. Other than the house I'm debt free.

[asitis]

My suggestion is that you work through a mediator (and one who is trained to deal with the emotional side of things) if you really have to separate the finances. Having a neutral party who can speak truth to both of you and perhaps get you working collaboratively rather than oppositionally can be part of the process to work on other aspects of the R.

I'm grateful that my W wants to go that route.

[asitis]

Yesterday, I had plans to go over to the house to do yard work and maybe some other chores. We have to do some of these on the days the other is at the house watching the kids, as things like lawn mowing can't be done while we are single parenting.

And before I start, this isn't going to be some discovery of things she has kept hidden, just a good DBing moment.

Anyway, text to say I'm coming over & if she can want to consult about a couple of the projects we need to take care of in the next two weeks. No response. About an hour later, text again: Haven't heard back, waiting to know if it's OK to come over. About half an hour goes by, and I figure, she let her phone run down, or it is not receiving texts properly (it does this when she doesn't occasionally re-start it), or she is doing something where she can't hear it in her purse. So, I decide to do something with the unexpected free time. Go to the book store find a book, order a coffee and sit and read my book. Very enjoyable.

When I was driving to the book store, saw W driving to the apartment w/ the kids to use the pool (it's free, so we use it rather than the public pools). She clearly didn't see me. Coming home, we cross paths again in the cars in the apartment parking lot, get a cheery wave from W.

This morning get text that she must have been in the pool when I texted yesterday. This is the fun part: "No, it was earlier, but no big deal. When u didn't respond, made plans & went to have coffee. Had a lot more fun that I would have mowing : )" I love GAL. It is entirely true that I can now go out and really enjoy myself by myself. And, yes it is a bit of fun to let W know I'm not sitting around moping but getting on w/ my life. It really makes a difference when you learn to appreciate these things that seemed to be so far away when everything was falling apart, or for that matter even before when your life was on cruise control and you didn't stop and appreciate those moments the way we can now.

Down side is that the lawn didn't get cut, and it isn't getting any shorter. Now to clean the apartment and get over to play with the kids. The yard will wait a few days. It'll be a bit harder and take a bit longer, but I would have had to do it again next weekend anyway. Hard to get me down when I'm getting the kids!

[asitis]

So one of the things that has nagged at me since feelings and desire for my W has returned recently is struggling w/ that desire. I really wish at times there were a way to suggest to W that I wouldn't read anything into her wanting to be intimate, even if it was just cuddling. I know that is pursuit so I won't do it, but it sometimes frustrates me that she might be open to this if she knew I wouldn't read anything into it other than what it was.

It's been such a long time, and I'm not going to stray outside the M. I guess I missed out on the great break up sex myth that we are all supposed to believe is happening to everyone but us. Ah well.

I've had some very salacious dreams featuring my W lately (something that I haven't had for the entire S until the last few weeks), and just feeling some frustration. I know that if her heart isn't in it, it wouldn't be truly satisfying, and that what I want is her love and companionship, not just ...

I know that if she is thinking of me in this way, that letting that frustration build is part of drawing her back in, but damn it can be frustrating when you see her almost every day and sleep in the same beds as she does, and see her undergarments lying around, and - OK, gotta stop.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming

[Fogg]

I had to laugh at this last post because its very similar to how I have felt many times. I've wondered if most of us have similar thoughts but we don't discuss those urges and how we deal with it. I'm not sure about letting her know you would be open to it and it mean nothing. I wanted to tell W something similar long ago and I realize now I doubt I could just cuddle or do anything physical and it not mean anything to me. Especially since my love language is physical touch and hers isn't.

Sleeping in the same bed(at different times), seeing her undergarments lying around, etc. WATCHING HER WALK DOWNSTAIRS IN SMALL BEDTIME SHORTS AND A SKIMPY TANK TOP, kfsadklfhsdhfdshdfsddfgdfgdfgdfgsdfdfgdgf

Yeah, I know what you mean.

[asitis]

Oh it would mean something to me. I just meant that I wouldn't take it to mean anything about where our R is going.

And, yes, it is an under discussed topic here. Coming up with DB-friendly ways to continue that aspect of the M while we let the dust settle & even move things toward a happy ending (in the sense of the M, not the sense of, well, you know ) would be extremely well received I suspect. Maybe we start a thread on what doesn't work and those who have successfully DBed their M can add anything that did work. I'm sure we'll find out we are far from alone in this struggle.

I further suspect that we'll just find out what we already know: just keep DBing and don't reject an offer unless their is an ongoing A. Still, if someone had an idea that led to a new DB technique, they'd go down in this forum's lore as one of our most beloved members.

[lonelee]

IMO ... (disclaimer coming) and I'm new here and have been honest and upfront that i'm not always doing exactly text book DB but i'm trying what portions i think pertain to my situation and trying tid bits here and there. Read my posts and you will see i have talked about "Making Coffee" or having SR with my spouse on here a little.

We have still been seeing each other on and off since April when he moved out. I too worried how "Making Coffee" would make me feel after knowing that the time together after would never be long enough for me. However I find that I am not a wreck after. i am peaceful, happy, and satisfied.

I struggle with the fact that prior to separation i had been trying to do things better where he was concerned knowing that i often had neglected that part of our marriage because many of my needs were not being met. He had an affair / having an affair and i own my responsibility in the demise of of our marriage.

I struggle because before I found DB I had figured I had nothing to lose and everything to gain by changing my habits. before learning of 180 i had become more aggressive with asking for what i wanted, changed my wardrobe some, wore sexy nighties, thongs and started texting him flirty messages and sending sexy pictures etc. I got his attention back big time.

NOW I come here and learn about the 180's and figure i cant change that again can I ? or does that seem like it was just a temporary move to get him back... Im actually enjoying the changes myself because it is what I actually wanted as well i just couldn't express my needs well enough for him to understand and vise versa for him.

Im not sure what your sit are like FOGG or ASITIS but i wanted to share that you maybe able to "make coffee" with your spouses and still walk away feeling confidant, happy and refreshed. I know I do and i often wonder what he is thinking after because not once have I cried or even stayed for a cuddle after or spent the night with him since. I take him and leave him just like a man would do.. oops that wasn't nice to say... i take him and leave him just like a strong willed, confidant, sexy woman who's enjoying it for what it's worth.

Im hoping that he is left wondering where my emotions are at. but I wont ask.. not gonna do it.

[asitis]

Oh, I would feel confident and refreshed, but I don't think it is a good idea to initiate. If my W initiated, I'd definitely strongly be tempted to accept. The difference is that being the LBS, it is almost certainly a bad idea to be the initiator unless there were clear signals, and even then it may not be a good idea. You are the LBS, so you accepting your H's advances is different (it's not pursuit for one). Also, to be frank, I really think with most women, especially if they are harboring anger, are not going to be likely to take an advance well compared to a man who just seems unsatisfied and wanting some freedom.

My W is not even wanting to be moderately affectionate with hugs or holding hands.

So I don't think Fogg or I are all that concerned that it would be a bad idea to accept an offer, but that we know that unless someone comes up for a good DBing reason for it, it seems to go against the DB approach.

BTW, I read your sitch & posted some things.

And I have never heard making coffee used as a euphemism for sex. I'm going to remember that one.

[Fogg]

Agree, accepting the offer is completely different than initiating one. Since my sitch has started in Dec the only physical contact me and W have had is 1 single hug that I initiated. There's not really even been the occasional brush up against each other walking through narrow walkways. So if she were to ever initiate any type of physical contact I would know it would be a serious change in her view.

Making coffee eh. I think I fantasize about making coffee with her too much as it is so if the opportunity came I really don't see myself turning it down. But I would also realize one cup doesn't mean we're about to open a coffee shop together either.

[asitis]

Lol.

Yes, and how crazy some of those brushes in the hallways make you.

We were working putting up cupboard doors in the kitchen, & a couple times there was a breast pressing against my hand and a bare thigh pressing against my arm. It drove me crazy. And, I've always been the flirty, joking kind and not resisted showing my appreciation in the past or making sly remarks when she said that she was having - we'll let's not go there. Very hard sometimes to restrain the happy good 'ol as_it_is.

[lonelee]

Well you both made me LOL and i appreciate it.. again i have to say my situation is different than yours for sure as we all have our own struggles and issues to deal with.

I initiate sometimes as does he.. again I had started that before DB came into my life so i kinda feel i cant completely turn my back to it now. I use some restraint and not make myself completely available all the time as too much of a good thing is not a good thing.

maybe start slow in your situations with a simple wink or a tiny flirt to see what her reaction might be. It might surprise you too know thats what she wants you to do. Or maybe you know its not the right timing so you don't do it yet. Im willing to bet she might not jump right at the chance but she will not forget it and maybe in time you might get a wink back. again this is just my opinion.

thanks for the reminder, time to go make some coffee.. for morning that is

[asitis]

I think she is still processing her anger (most of which is just aimed at me, not because of me), and the body language just doesn't suggest that it's time yet for flirting. Perhaps soon, but there need to be some more signs that it she can be light and joking with me for that to come up.

Glad you're still getting to make coffee. I love good coffee but it's been mostly instant lately which is not the same. Sorry, bad joke.

[asitis]

W came back from a party out of town for a former student. She is supposed to be in the apartment, but hadn't packed before she left yesterday. She told me she'd stop by to pack when she got back & she was carpooling & they left their car here. She gets back around 10, kids are asleep, & I'm in bed reading ready to turn the light out.

She knocks on the bedroom door & apologizes for being later & she'll just get stuff for tonight & come back tomorrow. OK. As she is getting her clothes, I very casually say, "you know you can crash here." She actually paused to consider for a split second, then said no, she'd go to the apartment. I intentionally didn't imply that it was in the M bed (we have a spare room). Just treated it like no big deal & she said she'd be over in the morning. I said I hope not too early, as I'm hoping the kids will let me sleep in, & she laughed and said she doubted she'd be up before 8-9.

So today, she came over to pack. I was playing a game with the kids, and S6 was being a grump, so I was in the middle of tickling him into a non-grumpy mood. She came in and smiled at the scene. As she packed, we exchanged some pleasant small talk & discussed a task that needed to be taken care of for S3's day care.

As she was leaving, she sort of turned aside so the kids wouldn't here and asked about whether I'd gotten the referral on the mediator for our finances. I said that I called and left a message, but they have not returned it in over 2 weeks, so I was just thinking about calling again & would do so. She said great, because we really need some help on the finances.

First reaction was the catch in the throat, that she is still thinking moving forward. Didn't show it, but after she left, I needed some meditation to calm my nerves and feel my emotions. Always need an occasional reminder that she can still make me feel sadness and anxiety over all this with a couple words.

I recognize that this does not necessarily mean she is still heading for D, as we do need some help untangling the finances & deal with some nagging financial tensions between us. It could very well be testing to see if I'm serious about my good natured willingness to follow her lead and respond to her wants & concerns. It could be wanting to work on the R, although she is not ready to put it that way. She could not really be sure at all what she is feeling. Who knows. While it s most likely that she is still wanting to push ahead toward D, my point is that I just really don't know, and even if it does it doesn't mean that's where we will end up. Mediation can be part of the path to reconciliation. You just don't know, so why get triggered?

Still doesn't feel good, and I talked w/ one of my women friends w/ whom I had a play date w/ our kids scheduled, which helped. Also posted picture of our kids playing together w/ her tagged in it on FB, & couldn't respond to W's text about getting some info from a sale catalog for kid's clothes because I was out.

So, I have my answer on whether to bring up the mediator, I raised a couple days ago. It has been brought up. I think I handled it well, although I know she could think I actually hadn't followed up when I had, but nothing I can do about it.

I sat with my emotions until they settled. Funny how I really got to see the way in which my reactive self really wanted to reach out and contact W reassuring her I had done it & really did want to move forward. It really helps to just sit with your feelings for a while and notice such impulses. You see them for what they are.

Taking kids out to dinner. I'm so glad when these days happen when I have the kids to focus on and enjoy.

[gonegrl]

As it is, you are doing great. I really like how you said you "sat with your feelings until they settled." That is a great way to express that, and something I need to remember.

I hope you had a great dinner with your kids!

[asitis]

As it is, you are doing great. I really like how you said you "sat with your feelings until they settled." That is a great way to express that, and something I need to remember.

I hope you had a great dinner with your kids!

Thanks Photoka.

You don't need to literally sit (although that's what I did). The idea is to focus on your breathing or some other not thinking focus. Then you bring your focus to the feelings. You try to do this first by checking where you are feeling this in your body. Then you figure out what the dominant emotion you are feeling is.

This can be harder than it sounds sometimes, because there is a jumble of emotions. Just sit focusing on the actual feelings wo/ focusing on a storyline about it. If you wander to thoughts/storyline, gently bring it back to the actual feeling until you figure out what it is you are actually feeling.

When you do, you gently embrace it like an old friend. It is part of you, and it is crying out for you to acknowledge that you are being activated to do something. You are just acknowledging that those feelings are there without judging that you shouldn't be feeling those. Just allow the feeling to be while you give it your attention wo/ getting off on the storylines we generally weave when we are triggered by a strong emotion. Eventually, wo/ the fuel of the storyline, it settles down.

Most people try to think their way out of their situation. This just doesn't work, and usually leads to bad decisions, words, and actions. The peace is in letting go of the thoughts and just be with the emotion.

Along the way you may have an insight about this. Oh, it seemed like anger or jealousy, but under that was fear. Or, with my last sitting w/ it above, I really felt the urge to reach out and contact my W. This is my habitual reactive response to that emotion. Those have worked at some point in my life, or I wouldn't have incorporated the habitual part. But I can then see it as a reactive drive and recognize that in this situation, it would not be helpful. I sat w/ that urge feeling for a bit until it settled.

These insights can be very helpful bonuses, but the main thing is just to let those powerful emotions to settle down and lose their power over you.

[HeavyD]

Such wise words. So well said.

[asitis]

Such wise words. So well said.

Thanks HeavyD. They are fairly standard Buddhist training once you learn the basics of meditation and start learning to investigate yourself and living by the psychological and ethical insights, so I can't really claim credit for them.

They work, but they don't remove the pain or the struggles. They just make them less powerful & likely to take control of you and make you do stupid sh*t, as well as help you keep your focus on what needs to be done right there in front of you.

I may come across as having my sh*t together, but trust me, I struggle royally at times just like the rest of us, and it is always easier when you are helping w/ someone else's sitch than your own. That, and I learn a lot that helps w/ my own sitch from seeing things in other's that I have trouble catching w/ my own if I weren't doing that. So, giving & receiving help are intimately intertwined.

[Uphill]

Just stopped by to catch up on your ditch a little. It sounds like you handle yourself very well from what I've read. I will start from the beginning when I get home tonight

[asitis]

Oh I struggle just like anyone. As I said, it is much easier to see things in other people's sitch than your own. Nobody is pushing your buttons, for one. There's a reason therapists go to others for therapy rather than trying to deal w/ their problems themselves.

[gonegrl]

I will try it. Although my brain doesn't shut off, so this will be a good practice for me. I used to do yoga and could never get the meditation part. But I am a little older now and have more emotions to sort out, I will give it a shot. It seems to be working for you!

[asitis]

I will try it. Although my brain doesn't shut off, so this will be a good practice for me. I used to do yoga and could never get the meditation part. But I am a little older now and have more emotions to sort out, I will give it a shot. It seems to be working for you!

Yoga meditation is a bit different than the typical instructions in Buddhist meditation, but just know that your brain doesn't shut off easily. So if when your mind takes off, don't view it as a bad thing, as the practice is learning to catch yourself then bring it back to your focus. Again, and again, and again. One teacher (Pema Chodron) has a wonderfully titled book: Fail, Fail Again, Fail Better. In Buddhist meditation, the point isn't to bliss out, but to learn over months and years to still the mind and experience what is right here now.

Trust me, I have an incredibly active mind. It took about a year of almost daily meditation, plus other practices, and 6 or 7 intense weekend retreats before my mind really settled down. That's not to discourage you. You'll start to see some benefits right away, but they are subtle. It is better to meditate 5 minutes a day than try to get it in once & a while. That is hard to do. My best advice is to set a daily alarm on your phone for a time that is usually good to find that 5-10 minutes. You don't have to sit just then if something is happening, but you are reminded that you want to sit at some point in the next couple hours.

So, the basic instruction is to sit comfortably, but upright (either chair or cross-legged or half/full lotus). Focus on your breathing either in the belly expansion or the tip of your nose (as it moves across your nose hair). You can count your breaths to 10 & then start over at 1, or you can just follow your breaths. If breaths don't work for you other focuses are to pick out a sound in the traffic and focus on it or focus on maintaining your upright posture. When your mind wanders, gently, & without judgment bring your attention back to your focus object. That's it. Simple. But it is very hard to do. Don't let yourself get frustrated. Again it is not about blissing out. It is boring & your ego mind/sense of self will jump up and down to get you to look at it (called monkey mind) or you'll go off into fantasy, worry about future, or regurgitation of the past. That's the way it is, and it's normal.

The other thing to add to this is mindful activity. Pick one thing you do everyday (it can be small & seemingly insignificant) and really focus on it. Try to experience it fully. Especially the body sensations.

[asitis]

Curious conundrum I'm puzzling through.

On one hand DB coach is encouraging me to invite W along occasionally when I do something fun w/ the boys. I'm to be casual, 'hey we're going to be doing this, & thought the boys would enjoy having you along,' and not be at all miffed at rejections. She says I'm infusing the stage that follows the dust settling phase that I'm doing so well on. I asked, isn't that pursuit? She says not if I treat it casually. The idea is that even rejection plants the seed that there are no strings, no pressure, and that a friendship based on mutual pleasure is possible. I'm still somewhat hesitant, although I have extended an invitation once.

On the other side, my IC thinks this is too fraught for both of us, and possibly the kids. The idea is that when one is moving away from a deep attachment relationship, rules & clear boundaries are important to avoid mixed messages & difficulty detaching further/later. Those rules can get relaxed w/ time, but that she thinks it is much to early to start relaxing them. This is basic attachment theory (my comment, not IC's), and makes a lot of sense for a healthy movement away from a broken attachment bond.

So, I'm left w/ competing advice from DB coach vs. IC. Both are very strong on their views here.

Thoughts?

[PigPen]

That's a tough one As. However, I'd go with your DB coach. I think it's kind of like listening to your Primary Care Physician or your Oncologist. Both may be right, both may be wrong, but the oncologist has seen thousands of specific cases.

When my DB coach said, I've personally talked to hundreds of WAW's, I knew his thoughts held weight over anything anyone else was telling me.

You're still a family too and have kids in the mix, so I think it shows that you're not specifically pursuing her (if you were just asking her out to spend time with you), but pursuing a healthy family event.

My 2c.

PP

[gonegrl]

I agree with Pigpen. Maybe you could do it but start with something very small. Proceed slowly and put the brakes on if you notice that your confidence is waivering? You seem like you are doing really well and maybe this would be a good "test" - just proceed with caution.

[asitis]

I've already had 2 tries at this. The first was a couple weeks ago, when I texted her to invite her to join us know she would likely turn it down, and put it like it was a random brain fart & no big deal. She thanked me (she didn't get it in time, as she is really bad at keeping her phone where she gets texts in a timely manner, and I know this is not an act) for the invite w/ an exclamation point, and I responded that I'm glad she had a relaxing break (she had had the kids for a longer than usual time).

The second was when she had to come over to watch the kids so I could go to a discussion group I've been involved in (movies, and we've seen some great ones - alas I will have to stop going once the semester starts, as I have an evening class - Da*n that seems weird to say at my age). I was making humus & pita (I make my own - much better than the store-bought stuff), and she had left me w/ no garlic and hadn't told me she used it up. I called & said could she come about 10 minutes early and bring some garlic from the apartment & I'd eat after my meeting. She said, I was just looking at the leftovers I was going to eat & they had gone bad. So I said, there will be enough if she wants to just come over to eat & bring the garlic (it was her 1st time having my homemade pita). She did just that.

The thing is that I know from her that her IC has told her to not do family activities so that the kids don't get false hopes of mom & dad getting back together (her & my IC were trained in the same social work program, so not surprising that they are on the same page). Older son did seem to have some difficulties, but that might have been a low blood sugar thing (he has a touch of Asperger's syndrome, and one of the symptoms is that they don't pay attention to their hunger well). So, W has a hesitancy on this anyway.

On the other hand, I'm also doing more showing that I'm going my own direction in ways that she knows about. So she is seeing me building a life totally outside our M at the same time I very casually make an invite.

Back to the con: (1) attachment theory really is well supported by the neuropsycholgical and clinical evidence for most things; (2) it jibes w/ my understandings of relationships & human psychology; (3) there is a dearth of studies on its applicability in MC, but the application of the theory & evidence is supports my ICs; & (4) it seems to be fitting w/ the no pursuit, detachment approach of DBing.

[asitis]

So we were talking/commiserating/joking about how we missed sex & wrestling w/ desire for our WAWs (until lonelee came in and started telling us about coffee ). One of the gripes was missing out on the supposed great breakup sex. I thought I'd pass along a comment from my IC.

She said that her experience has been that in even hostile, messy Ds, she thinks the average is about two times that the couples have sex. We started joking that I got short changed.

I'd really love a coffee or two.

[ep0215]

I would love a pot

[Fogg]

There is going to be a coffee fetish on this forum that will confuse LBS's in the future. I can see it now, some poor soul searching through the archives trying to save their marriage and all they see is coffee this, coffee that. I have no objections, just find it amusing

Twice you say? Interesting.

Yeah, a pot would be nice. However, as angry as I was yesterday at myself I might have smacked the cup out of a hand if offered. Not really thought.

[asitis]

There is going to be a coffee fetish on this forum that will confuse LBS's in the future. I can see it now, some poor soul searching through the archives trying to save their marriage and all they see is coffee this, coffee that. I have no objections, just find it amusing

Twice you say? Interesting.

Yeah, a pot would be nice. However, as angry as I was yesterday at myself I might have smacked the cup out of a hand if offered. Not really thought.

Maybe decaf for you right now?

[gonegrl]

Caffeine withdrawal is the worst.

[PigPen]

8 months here with no make up coffee. It would be the fastest cup I've ever drank.

Cheers.

PP

[gonegrl]

Pigpen, I just literally laughed out loud.

[Zephyr]

Hi AS, saw something on another thread you posted...

"She has been in IC this whole time, & I know that her IC would be warning her off any R. She has also expressed that she needs to find herself and just wants to be alone for now. I know we can't trust their words, but this is done w/ sincerity (she's never been a liar & wouldn't be god at it) and fits with all the other evidence."

Whatever crisis your wife is going through right now, this may be the most telling, honest thing she can possibly say to you. She is begging you for space whether she says it or tells IC or whatever. Just because this may not make sense to us, doesn't mean it is not your wifes reality right now. No matter what else may be going on...that space and non pressure needs to happen.

I read it every day. I lived it for years. I wanted to help her, pour my affecton out to her, love her, sex her up...all of it. She could not.stand me and I could not figure it out. If I had one thing to do differently after I found out she was unhappy... Etc, I wish I would have figured out how to back off sooner.

Then super husband routine...didn't work. The emotional Casanova... Didn't work. None of it but space and compassion.

Sorry for the derail...I just wanted to drop that note off to you. Maybe you've already figured that out and I missed that part...seems like you have a pretty good grasp on all of this from what I read on your posts to others...so thank you for posting.

[asitis]

Thanks Z. And, this is the path we are on. Lot's of space. Just friendly space w/ me taking care of my end of the practical matters, parenting, doing some things that will likely draw her interest in time, and patience.

I know what she feels and says is real to her right now. I know that there are even kernels of truth in the spew I get at times. And, I know (partly from training, and partly from direct experience) that empathetic listening, validation, mirroring, all help her w/ her healing (as well as my own). No matter what else, I do love the woman, and I hate to see her hurting. So, as hard as it is, I want to give her this space. It is my way of loving her right now.

Thanks for the reminder.

[asitis]

I wish I had some coffee to spit PP at that one.

And glad to have you all along on our Friday evening GAL by being on here rather than out doing who knows what with people we can see & here. Seriously, it is good to turn here with all your good, and silly folk.

[asitis]

OK, we're about to hit 100 posts, so I'm starting a new thread.

as_it_is - my adventure continues (part 3)