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Zues126 #2584518 07/03/15 04:27 PM
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Z,

To be clear, I am for marriage. I do not support divorce ..only in extreme circumstances.

Now that said, the only issue that I had was your statement that divorce is "a crime of the highest order." Clearly not the case here when shown some really horrific crimes against humanity that, for the lack of a better word, supersedes divorce.

Bottom line: You are entitled to your views/opinions and vice versa with mine.

I enjoy reading your posts for they are indeed thought provoking. Thank you, Z. smile



Last edited by Wonka; 07/03/15 04:28 PM.
Wonka #2584531 07/03/15 04:45 PM
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Thanks Wonka. Yes, sometimes I get carried away in my rants. I don't disagree with your assessment of world horrors.

Really I just need to spew this out of my system. I've thought a lot about the question of how to find compassion and forgiveness, and whether we need to consider ourselves "potential" WAS's to feel that way. I thought about the Christian view of forgiveness, and look at God or Jesus as a possible example to follow. I don't think either of them are considered 'potential sinners', yet they have the capacity of a love and compassion we can never achieve unless through the spirit. At least that's my understanding.

To follow their lead, open my heart to that level of forgiveness, pray for those that have hurt me...that is what I am working towards. It does help to validate my own feelings first, telling myself I feel the way I wish I felt doesn't work well. See clip below for an excerpt from a good book I'm reading. But once I get that out, then I can ask myself where those feelings come from, what I can learn from them, and where I want to go from here. The answer is NEVER to stay angry or hurt, and each time I go through this cycle it gets a little easier to get back to some type of serenity and compassion. Thanks for the support!

********************************************************

Quote from "The 9 fantasies that will ruin your life":

Denial is the result of ignoring internal information (our feelings) or external information (others' behavior). Because denial doesn't change reality, it leaves the individual less prepared to act in an appropriate way....Until we understand and acknowledge our impulses (sexual, venal, angry, whatever) we deny our true self. I stress the difference between thought and deed because knowing the difference allows us to have control over our behavior.

Keeping ourselves in the dark because we're afraid to turn on the light of understanding will leave use clueless about our thoughts. Since feelings lead directly to behavior, ignoring the trigger means the behavior will seem random, and if it's random we're not responsible for it- BUT IT ISN'T RANDOM AND WE ARE RESPONSIBLE. Understanding and acknowledging our feelings gives us a blueprint of options that can be altered, acted upon, or discarded.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Zues126 #2584624 07/04/15 12:06 AM
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So with my conflicting emotions, I'm working on recognizing three different pieces: The sinner, the sin, and my boundaries. I can have love for the sinner, hate the sin, and then put that aside and decide how close I want to let that behavior near me.

It's funny, things went well at mediation. It's been a year, and we've been separated, but she feels like my wife. I really feel like we're still married, it's just a marriage in which we don't talk anymore and she is hooking up with other guys. It's not what I wanted and I'm not ok with that, but in a weird way I'm still married and feel like I always will be.

It's like we're just going to have a marriage where we separate, go our different directions, live new lives, and build relationships with new people. If that's the marriage she wants I can't stop her. But I feel like we'll just be in a dysfunctional disconnected marriage.

Somehow that works better for me to think of it that way. Because while I still have a tremendous bond with her, I have to set boundaries to protect myself from who she is. She probably feels the same with me. Good for her. But somehow it allows me to preserve and validate the bond we had, because it will kind of always be there. It's not lost, it's just not what we're going to act on.

I don't know why that would ease my sense of loss, but from that view I guess I'm ok. She can do her thing, I'm doing fine doing my thing. I'm sure that bond will fade as time goes on and the people we were together are more of a memory, but it may always be there due to what we went through to some extent. Either way I'm doing ok and I'll just keep rocking my beat.

Not sure if I'm making sense, but that's how I feel right now. And when I feel conflicting emotions I'm sorting them out, then deciding what I want to do about it in terms of behavior. So I think all is ok.

Happy holiday weekend all!


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Zues126 #2584717 07/04/15 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: Z
So with my conflicting emotions, I'm working on recognizing three different pieces: The sinner, the sin, and my boundaries. I can have love for the sinner, hate the sin, and then put that aside and decide how close I want to let that behavior near me.


forgive them for they know not what they do. The same sentiment exists from a Buddhist perspective. They are screwing their own karma and are clearly unaware of it. Buddhism is very "forgiving" in the sense that you don't have to believe that karma transcends lifetimes, or in reincarnation, or in anything for that matter. The only thing that is important is you actions. What you believe is irrelevant.

I don't have to love her. Just not hating her is enough for me. Not because I necessarily believe in karma, but I do believe that harbouring anger in my heart will only hurt me, and sacrifice the future good I might do/recieve.

I dont have to hate or love the sin either. There are no sins per se. Just life. And [censored] happens. There is no heaven or hell either. Well again, per se. In a sense this life is hell, until you have that perfect life where your actions effectively reflect all those same things that Jesus portrayed and totally move your karma into the zone of readiness to simply sublime into pure energy, heaven.

The liberating part is that as mere mortal souls we cannot ever know our karmic history, and no matter how good you are, your soul might be destined to return to this hell anyway because of something that happened in a previous incarnation of your soul. Liberating because it doesn't really matter how you act now. Liberating because you are free to choose. Liberating because you might as well be the best person you can be without any expectation of heaven or hell, but simply because you know it is the right thing to do.


M: 6 T: 12
Kids: 2,4
BD: Jan 2015 S: Feb 2015
EA/PA confirmed: Feb2015/Mar2015
Pyrite #2584870 07/05/15 05:48 AM
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Thanks Py. Since I've got time tonight I think I'll finally share my belief on how Karma works. It goes like this:

Picture a dark room with an enormous white wall. Then we take a slideshow of your entire life, from the moment you were born until the very end, and you put those slides up on the wall from left to right. Got it? Now, turn on a flashlight. That's 'consciousness'. It starts by shining on the first moment, then streams across like a flip book, creating the illusion of the passage of time. In reality there may be no time, it's all up there, but the consciousness is only aware of one moment, and while you're experiencing that moment you have the perception of the previous slide having just happened, etc.

Now it gets fun. Under your slideshow, there's my slide show. And under that is WAS's, and her dog's, and everyone that has come before or after (I told you it was a big wall). So all of our lives are up there, from beginning to end, simultaneously.

But the point is that there is only ONE flashlight. ONE consciousness. So when you're done experiencing life as "Py", then the consciousness may flash down to my slideshow and you'll have the experience of me typing these words to you. And so one. But it's all one consciousness, experiencing each life. Until at some point the light comes on and we see the entire picture. All of it, like a big mural. Nothing lost. No feelings, experiences, suffering, or sacrifice lost. All part of a big art project that we can't begin to comprehend (hey, I told you I used to meditate doing headstands while listening to across the universe while peaking at 3AM).

The reason I feel Karma ties into this is that if we're all one consciousness, then I will by default experience FIRST HAND the ramifications of my actions in this life. If I betray someone in my life, karma won't necessarily 'get me back' in this life...but when I'm living their life I will be them, and I will be the one betrayed. Even my passive shortcomings (like not doing more to help those that are hungry) are wrong, and while I won't be 'judged' by a sentient being, I will one day be hungry with a guy in the US typing on DB forums instead of doing more to help me out.

This to me shares some similarities with Buddhism with a type of Karma and reincarnation, this is just my interpretation of it. So what to do with that knowledge? Well, when I remind myself of that holding a grudge at WAS just seems to be getting mad at myself, and does nothing constructive. I don't know what the ultimate purpose is, but it seems that when the lights go on I want to do what I can to make that mural look a little more caring and beautiful.

Tonight I do that by sharing some good will with all of you folks. Thanks for being my DB family. You guys mean a lot to me. Be well.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Zues126 #2585098 07/06/15 11:52 AM
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Hey, Zues. I liked your July 4 post....and I do get it. I think that bond sort of lives on in my situation, too, despite the very little interaction since BD. Even despite the distance, H still feels free to make comments on what I would like, or what I should do...and it frustrates me in some ways but endears me in others. Fact is, we did share something special with each other. Maybe it wasn't meant to be forever...but it was there at some point and it does live on.


H 37 Me 36
Together 15 years
Married 5 years
No kids
BD Apr 2014
H moved out 2 Jun 2014
gan #2585122 07/06/15 02:01 PM
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Just another thought while it occurs to me. I've often been a bit surprised + amused by the way you draw on extreme examples/turns of phrases when trying to get your point across (I recall you likening unfulfilled sexual desire to not feeding your baby, deciding not to cheat to not turning to cannibalism for example). I see you've gotten into an exchange with Wonka over this above. I wonder if this was ever an issue IRL?


H 37 Me 36
Together 15 years
Married 5 years
No kids
BD Apr 2014
H moved out 2 Jun 2014
gan #2585164 07/06/15 04:06 PM
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Hey Gan, responding to your posts here and also on your thread.

First, I realize it's my own problem that I was afraid of being 2x4'd. That was partly a joke, but sometimes we joke about things we're afraid to say seriously. I definitely have an issue with conflict. I am very openminded, but I am sensitive. You've been a delight to talk to because at all times I've felt very validated and understood, and if you've debated with me I never felt we argued, I always felt we were conversing, because you have always been very respectful of differing viewpoints and phrasing your own ideas as suggestions or brainstorms. I guess I'm both pointing out something about myself I've learned, and also thanking you for being a good friend.

I do agree I am 'expansive'. This has been tamed down somewhat since I've been in therapy. But everything I do has been somewhat over the top. I didn't want to be a good pool player, I wanted to be the greatest player that ever lived. This is one example of how my mind goes to extremes. My IC actually said he's impressed I've been successful in the real world, many people with my characteristics have had 8 failed businesses and are in bankruptcy (his example).

Put these two together (sensitive around conflict, expansive) and I can see the pattern. I don't respond well to conflict and usually just shut down. My best friend and I joke about the 'dead to me' list. If someone crosses boundaries I generally just bow out and drop them off my list of people I talk to. I, like you, try to respect other's opinions and don't like being bullied which is how it feels when people are confrontational with me. So in the past I would've just not replied to Wonka and written her off as someone I don't want to talk to anymore...but I'm trying to work on being able to get along with others outside my comfort zone. I know Wonka is high quality and felt it was important to work through that conversation, if I can't get along with people like her I'm in trouble.

So is being 'expansive' a problem in real life? It's definitely a tendency, something I've reeled in a bit because it was a little goofy at times. I'm not sure it causes me problems necessarily, in fact I find that I'm very good at communication. I'm in sales and have been in leadership, and have been able to 'paint pictures' in people's head that allow me to get messages through that others might not.

But to actually go to extremes in my thinking...that could cause me problems. I have worked on getting away from 'all or nothing' thinking, and have really tried to get in touch with my emotions so I'm not allowing them to drive me to crazy conclusions in my head. At some point though I do think it will be part of my personality, so my goal is awareness and management. I think most of my journey is about accepting who I am and working within myself rather than trying to 'will myself' into someone that I'm not.

Thanks for talking about it with me. It's a real pleasure. I will dive into Passionate Marriage next, not only do I look forward to learning about it, I look forward to having more things to fuel our conversations going forward. Talk soon!


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Zues126 #2585526 07/07/15 11:52 AM
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Ah...yes I remember your "dead-to-me list". You told me about this waaay back when, after I mentioned my H's tendency to do something similar (his parents in this case). It's nice to hear that you are working through it...


H 37 Me 36
Together 15 years
Married 5 years
No kids
BD Apr 2014
H moved out 2 Jun 2014
gan #2585790 07/08/15 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: gan
Ah...yes I remember your "dead-to-me list". You told me about this waaay back when, after I mentioned my H's tendency to do something similar (his parents in this case). It's nice to hear that you are working through it...


You know Gan...I've been thinking about this a lot. I know why I do it. And it's not really a bad thing in many circumstances. I think there is opportunity to learn some middle road with people who's relationships I value, but overall I like this approach.

The reason I do it? It ties back to the serenity prayer. Accept the things I cannot change. There are many times I just cannot change other people. It's not that I'm "afraid of conflict", I just don't see the point in trying to reason with someone unreasonable, or trying to change someone or something that won't change. In these cases I feel I'm better off just accepting it, and controlling what I can: ME, and how close I let those people get to me.

Example: My boss has an admin assistant that I have to turn in expense reports, sales projections, and other things to from time to time. There are deadlines, and I'm well aware of them. If I miss a deadline I have made a mistake, which is entirely on me. The way she handles it, however, is to be extremely nasty and condescending, also using things like public shame. As I said, if I err I will accept any and all consequences for my mistakes, but I don't believe it's professional to be a bully to try to coerce people into action.

So the other day she sent me an email that was extremely rude and unprofessional in my opinion, and carbon copied my boss and my boss's boss. I thought about addressing it with her and my boss. I believe that if I am to be reprimanded it should be done privately and respectfully. Even if I did something that provoked my termination I would expect to be terminated with respect. That is my opinion. But I thought about it, and my conclusions were: 1) I don't believe she would change much, 2) It may create more bad will, and 3) I don't really care enough about the situation to warrant the energy to fight a battle that I may not be able to win.

So I just ducked the issue and put her on my mental 'dead to me' list. She can send emails all she wants and be as snotty as she likes. I have to deal with her once or twice a month. She has to live like that. Have fun lady.

I do this often. I just refuse to let people that don't deserve space in my head the ability to impact me. I CONSTANTLY see other people getting upset by things like this, get into arguments they can't win, try to change things they can't change, and let their attitude suffer or feel resentful, slighted, etc. So I feel my ability to recognize and avoid pointless conflict as a strength.

In my M my WAS was pretty unreasonable, meaning literally she would do what she did, my voice was pretty well unheard. I got to the point I treated her the same way. That still holds true. I am just 'dealing' with her, I am not trying to negotiate or be collaborative with her. This isn't because I'm scared, she's simply proved to me there is no point in trying to have a discussion so I am not going to waste my breath.

I am currently not speaking to my sister. She's the one that was best friends with WAS through BD and minimized her actions (affairs were 'flings', believed 'whatever made us both happy was best', played down her blackout drinking, and overall supported her course of action and was emotionally supportive to her). I told her how I felt, she minimized that and didn't change course. After that I just concluded that while I love my sister, I don't want her close to me going forward. I don't believe she will ever understand what she did was wrong, and I don't feel like having someone close to me that could do that to me again. When I remarry my future wife will never know my sister if I can help it. Dead to me.

I'm not really afraid of conflict...I guess I just need to understand the benefits. Mostly I've gone through my life accepting that other people will do what they do, and I'll just do what I do in response to navigate through the terrain. The people that prove to me can be reasonable, those are the people I feel comfortable investing in deeper relationships with.

Thoughts? I'm open to exploring this topic. I don't expect people to mind read, but if they demonstrate disinterest in being reasonable or sensitive then I just don't need them close to me. That's how I feel.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
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