The Bird, the Cage, and the open door.

[Wonka]

FY's post sums it all up quite nicely for you. Right on point. FY, this is why I have this massive crush on you (and T2).

[mleigh4]

Hmmmm ok. Something your W said struck a chord with me. She said she doesn't feel comfortable enough during sex to do some things and doesn't know why? Something close to that? Anyway, I can totally relate to that. It is something I used to tell my H, when I was really withdrawn and not feeling connected with him. It's all about emotion and connection for me, might be the same for her. She feels safe with you, but is still very deep in the struggle with the emotional part.

Please don't take it personal, as you guys get closer, I bet that will change.

One more thing, H is not the best lover I ever had. However, the emotional connection with him always blew away the physical part of the act with anyone else.( Didn't your W tell you the same?) Don't get hung up on what she said, she was looking for justification for her actions. Again, my H is no Casanova, but here I am, loyal and faithful for 15 years now, 2 after BD. I don't believe an A has a anything to do with performance.

[uRworthy]

Hi Luke. I apologize. I didn't see your post before I wrote to you.I will comment when I have more time.

[AJM]

Hmm.. I for one don't find it surprising to hear what you wrote, Cali. I hope you are not surprised by it either. You knew it was an issue to be dealt with.

Here's the thing. As FY alluded to, the brain is the biggest part. Yours too. The other part to consider is that you BOTH need to work through this. Why? Intimacy. Sex is just a workout without it. Fun. Lasts a little while and then you take a shower. But with intimacy? Wow. Wayyyyy different.

As it is supposed to be.

What you've been given is a chance for just that. The hallmark idea of mind-blowing sex, as Oprah will describe it in her magazine (I'm guessing - seriously) requires intimacy. Not moves. Not physical attributes. Sex is the icing on the cake, not the cake.

You don't have that level of intimacy yet. But you're both working toward it.

There may be more frustrating times like this, before, during and after. But the real prize is to be able to work through it in an intimate way. Which is what you did. Putting it out there like that, and her listening to it and having the open conversation.

You may have noticed, she is thinking one thing, and you another about the subject. With time, effort, and patience, you'll both be of the same mind, and the rest won't matter.

Counseling might be a good idea for you Cali. Seriously. It may help to speed the process and help equip you to deal with things differently.

But in the end, the recipe will have to include the both of you being intimate at all three levels.

Keep working at the intimacy. At some point, you'll work past the immediate issues of the immediate past and start to peel back the layers (like an onion, Donkey) and get to the earlier and core issues. That's a long journey and one that's arduous. Not for the faint of heart for either of you.

Rebuilding a bond is scary and hard. And rewarding. And it comes with thrills, chills, and twists. And it gives you both (you may have noticed what she said?) the chance to uncover and fix past issues. Be grateful for that, amigo. That's what will help to build that intimate connection you're looking for.

Cheers!

AJ

[uRworthy]

Ok, Luke. I'm just gonna be completely honest...so here goes. .

When she fell asleep, you were angry, frustrated. When she asked you what was wrong, you weren't honest with her. You told her it was about the homework. Just keeping it real with you. In fairness to her, she has no idea that it bothers you when she falls asleep. So you lost an opportunity to share that with her and instead made it about something else.

About your post...I know that was difficult to write. Just shows how far you've come and how hard you worked. So here's the thing..Aj is right. You can have sex with anyone. What makes it matter is the intimacy. I don't care built someone is or how big...I care about the connection, the emotion, the realness.

Honestly, the last thing that should happen in reconnection is the physical part. You want all the other stuff good first. Because without the foundation of communication, honesty, openness and trust, intimacy can't thrive.

Luke, I know that stuff she said hurt you deeply. The truth is that it was meant to. You were the enemy, the reason for her unhappiness. She knew where to hurt you.

I can promise you that what you think went on between them didn't. What they had was built on lies and deceit. There was no intimacy because of it.

Luke, I think you are trying to rush through this part and you can't. She is just realizing stuff. She is trying to figure her stuff out.

As for you, I understand how you feel. You need to work through that or this doesn't move forward.

I think the closer you get, the less of those feelings you Wil
will have.

As a woman, give me a man with strength, courage, conviction, dignity and a sense of humor...now that's attractive.

My friend, let this play out. Take what you've learned and let it guide you. Continue to communicate. Believe in you and who you are. There will be fits and starts. You just have to hold steady.

[Sotto]

^^^^^ This is great advice from uR I think!

Cali, I agree about what women love and value about guys - in and out of bed.....

Take care & take your time xx

[CaliGuy]

Thank you everyone for all your words. And I know you are right ... I just wanted to share those deep feelings, ones I have never had .. insecurities I gained by going through the bad end of the A and all this. I do not think I have a complex, but it was a rush of thoughts/emotions/insecurities I had never experienced before.

FY .... yeah ... I know you are right and spot on in your assessment, I just was not ready for all that to hit me the way it did.

uR you are right ... what happened in the A is probably no where near what truly happened ... as I told W I am currently chasing a ghost that I know does not exist but yet it haunts me. As far as the falling asleep .. I honestly was not upset at that (I have been in the past here and there) I was more upset we were not doing 'the work' .... W often starts things and never finishes ... if anything its THAT which bothers me as if we are going to fix this M she is going to have to put in the work consistently ... not just do things then assume its all better because we are not fighting. That's how I felt and what I communicated with her.

Oh ... Off Subject and I love a good rumor .. anyone else find it odd uR and AJ were kind of on a break about the same time and happen to show back up together ... Hmmmmmm just sayin.

Just to touch on a couple things. I think it was a mix of holding onto the hurtful things she said and the rush of emotions that flooded over me. I had never felt ... 'less' in the bedroom till then and dealing with all the thoughts after. Processing through some things, yes .. obviously OM and W never had close to the connection that W and I share, obviously as even through this crisis W always had to tug at the ropes and ensure she was still connected to me then go about her tunnel chasing.
I also have been doing some reading/thinking/reflecting ... more towards where I am now concerning healing after what had happened and I think there is pressure to ... as primal as this sounds.. mark my territory, I caught myself doing it the past few months. The bed for instance, big trigger for me ... I recall walking into the bedroom, looking at the bed and thinking about the A then some anger developed inside of me and I said to myself "No, this is MY bed, not his ... I was here first and what they did was wrong" I then sat on the bed and refused to move until the anxiety and anger passed. Now, I have no problem with the bed .... I think I am doing similar with W, granted she is not an object and I can not sit on her till I feel better about it all lol... but the approach is very similar, Last night I read similar in a book ... I was looking for the term they used to describe it but I can not find it .. something like Spouse Protecting or something to that effect. Sounds so Cave-manish but is something I had not really thought about that I do see happening on various levels ... just things to look at.

Mini-update. W started her famous PMS ... which could be partly a reason for the heavy petting the past couple nights prior(Was a common trend way back before the crisis). I picked up S and the dog from the vet, took S home and made dinner as W had shared throughout the day she was stressed trying to get things done I decided to just give her time to do her thing, she did voice she wanted me and S over, I was detached and said we would be over later. We arrived about 7:30 and dropped off a few things then S and I went and walked the dog, S shared that he felt "Mom was more awake" lately ..... I talked to him a little about that before turning the topic towards farts and boogers. (Always an easy transition) W and I did our 'homework' and even did the night before to make up for what we missed. I stayed out on the balcony as it was a nice night reading a bit. Went to bed .. little pillow talk then woke this morning. We got into it a little bit, nothing major over the LL thing, again she misunderstands my physical touch as always being 'sex-based' but I tried to explain it to her the best I could then decided to drop it as she was not really receptive given the fact she was crabby ... she shared she was feeling bloated and sore, I listened/validated but there was tension ... no fight but I felt some of the old feelings from the old M as did she, I told her I am not going back to that M .... said my goodbyes and left for work.

Just continuing to process through my own stuff at the moment, seems I am making progress albeit slow.

Again thank you everyone for all your words and insights.

[AJM]

Just to touch on a couple things. I think it was a mix of holding onto the hurtful things she said and the rush of emotions that flooded over me

I think you'll find that as emotions are revisited, so too will the feelings that may be associated with them. Kind of like dragging a piece of metal wire across the floor and every now and then hitting an outlet.

I really like your description of how you overcame the bed thing. To be honest, I did things in a similar manner for my entire house, car, kids, etc. I forced myself to face it rather than be haunted by the "ghosts". Not for everybody, but it turns out that if you do face them down, the mountains become mole hills and you stop having that ptsd-like reaction to inanimate objects. More importantly, you face your fears and "ghosts" so they no longer hold power over you.

As you may have noticed, it takes a while. Removing the pain or re-associating the new memory with a new feeling is essentially what you are doing. Which has some sort of technical named therapy that it's called by those in the business. I'm not, so it's just 'technical named things' :0)

Good on ya, Cali 2.0. Seems things are progressing. Sometimes lurching, and at others zipping, and still others it seems to be kind of a drunken-crab-walk like stupor, but progress it is.

Peace,

AJ

[asitis]

Cali,

Like the others, I think you are doing just fine and making lots of progress. Don't be too hard on yourself on the intimacy front. Much harder for us guys sometimes, and a blow to the ego when we aren't able to be ready to go like we've been told we men are supposed to be. You've read the healing from infidelity chapter in DR, so you know it is going to be hard and not a linear process with much anxiety about how she compares you to OM. It is just going to happen. IC can help on this front too.

I also agree that the making up that you were mad about not doing your "homework" was a missed opportunity, but I was wondering if you are afraid to be mad at her because you are feeling like things are so fragile yet? Strong, confident men allow themselves to be vulnerable and let their guard down in front of those they are close to. They are willing to take the risk of their partner's anger by speaking about what is bothering them with lots of "I feel" statements, knowing that they have the skills now to heal the breach if one occurs as a result, and that it will ultimately move your two closer. You clearly have those skills. If you didn't, your W wouldn't have made the moves back and you wouldn't be doing such a good job of piecing.

Have confidence in yourself and that she has invested herself and will respond well to you opening up and being vulnerable. It is not the same as the breaking down in fear of her leaving. It is completely different. Remember, the "what would draw us nearer?" is your mantra right now. Use that any time she offers you an opening to engage.

Very happy for you, and things are looking really, really positive from this perspective.

[uRworthy]

Great post, AJ.

Luke, while I would be honored to meet AJ, the reason for the break was far more mundane. .

Good on you for slaying those ghosts bit by bit. I so appreciate you courage in sharing what you do. Speaks volumes about how hard you are willing to work to be who you want to be.