Working on it, but affair hasn't ended yet...

[CaliGuy]

Do I state this to her? Or is this just a waiting game until her actions show that she's committed? At what point do I trust she's back and committed?

At some point you will have to state them, wait for the oppurtunity ... your W thinks she has you in a blind spot, told you she ended it with OM, but you have intel that states .. while it may be on the rocks her actions prove to the contrary .. its up to you on how to tell her you know there is an ongoing EA and will not stand for it.

You will know when she is commited when she tells you she will do anything to save the marriage ... then you will list your terms (NC letter to OM, Full transparency, MC ... etc....)

Without going dark, again, it's just the GAL and PMA strategies?

Add in the biggie .. Detachment .. yes.

sandi2 says her fantasy has to crumble from consequences of her actions. What consequences that aren't fully detrimental to the family?

This^^^ leans towards you being cool with yout wife having an affar .. look ... SHE is doing this .. not you .. the consequences of HER actions are detrimental to the family, you did not choose this but you must stand up for yourself here.

Again read her wayward treads... gold in those hills man.

Quietly try to expose her at work? That doesn't seem like a good idea and she'll be leaving soon anyways. The consequences of me going off on my own? But if problems arose from me not being there? I realize I must GAL - but still...

There are different approaches on this ... my feeling is the A has to burn out on its own or the W will blame you for ruining her shot at freedom ... but exposure can speed this up, confrontation to a OM who is married does show you will fight for your M ... this is a very sticky area and I see the benefits both ways ... its more about what you are prepared to do here. In your case .. sounds like OM is not all that interested, playing it cool ... but most likely will dip not the free cookie jar.

I don't have to let her go on the vacation - but is that punishment?

I can stop discussing the A and the R until she's back.

The event will still go on this weekend, so we'll go together. It will be good to be away from the kids, but how can I continue to DB during this? Focusing on the other folks at the event? That seems to reinforce the "best friends" feeling she has that we're there together but not together.

I realize I need boundaries and consequences for them. But other than canceling her phone, I'm not sure what to do.

I feel like I'm asking stupid questions, but my mind is still in a whirlwind.

No stupid questions ... if the phone is your source of intel and you can verify her truths/lies then its not a bad thing to keep that.

For me my W was full blown done with me and into the A, my tactics were different ... I did threaten to expose the A but never did. I had little intel which made it harder.

You have already busted her, she knows you know but thinks she pulled one over on you and continues to pursue OM, she does not respect you. And no woman is attracted to a man she does not respect. This was true with my W aswell

You have to state your boundaries .. be clear and its non-negotiable .. this can be done calmly and you do not have to be an Ahole about it.

Keep reading Sandi's stuff ... also look at Starsky's advice all over the forum, his approach is really the way I would nudge you into doing.

[t33]

Do I state this to her? Or is this just a waiting game until her actions show that she's committed? At what point do I trust she's back and committed?

At some point you will have to state them, wait for the oppurtunity ... your W thinks she has you in a blind spot, told you she ended it with OM, but you have intel that states .. while it may be on the rocks her actions prove to the contrary .. its up to you on how to tell her you know there is an ongoing EA and will not stand for it.

We do have periods of honesty when we talk. Detaching suggests we don't talk anymore. If I ask her if she's still talking/texting to him, she will most likely say Yes. While this is a sign of disrespect, I think it's better than disrespecting with lying (levels of disrespect - ha!). She would not bring it back up that she ended it. But if I asked, she's probably admit it. If she talks about the R, I suppose that is the time to ask the question. Otherwise, I go about business like I assume the A is ongoing - without bringing it up as long as it doesn't cross into the home boundary?

Again read her wayward treads... gold in those hills man.

Definitely good information there.

A major thing I'm struggling with in sandi2's advice from the Newcomer LBH post is:

The first loss the wayward should experience is her H. When everything is laid out and she starts with the usual BS of not seeing a future with him, etc., he should start immediately in pulling away. He needs to do it to the degree she feels his absence in her everyday life. And it is important that the H does not make any grand announcements about his intentions. He doesn't talk. He acts. He doesn't tell her what he's doing, he just does it.

This is exactly where our problems began. I was absent. I 180'd to not be absent. This feels like a Last Resort technique. This seems like it puts us back to where the trouble started. So if that didn't work for our relationship when I was gone and missing, how, in my situation will this help fix the problem?

Quietly try to expose her at work? That doesn't seem like a good idea and she'll be leaving soon anyways. The consequences of me going off on my own? But if problems arose from me not being there? I realize I must GAL - but still...

There are different approaches on this ... my feeling is the A has to burn out on its own or the W will blame you for ruining her shot at freedom

Agreed

... but exposure can speed this up, confrontation to a OM who is married does show you will fight for your M ... this is a very sticky area and I see the benefits both ways ... its more about what you are prepared to do here. In your case .. sounds like OM is not all that interested, playing it cool ... but most likely will dip not the free cookie jar.

Yes - his boss is suspicious as well. I could plant seeds, but I don't want the complications to be pointed back at me, that could be counterintuitive. Same with his family. While he's playing it cool, he's certainly enjoying the free goods. I also don't want him to get fired if she's leaving the company. He could end up with more free time that could be bad. Better to keep him where he is. I will keep this as a scorched earth possibility, but I guess I should take a wait and see approach once she leaves the company.

No stupid questions ... if the phone is your source of intel and you can verify her truths/lies then its not a bad thing to keep that.

As long as it is, I think it's important to keep.

For me my W was full blown done with me and into the A, my tactics were different ... I did threaten to expose the A but never did. I had little intel which made it harder.

And for me, I don't think threats are going to do anything but make her withdraw and resent.

You have to state your boundaries .. be clear and its non-negotiable .. this can be done calmly and you do not have to be an Ahole about it.

I know boundaries are personal and situational, but any suggestions on how to approach it? I stated no communication at home or with the kids. The only consequence of breaking that is losing the phone which I don't particularly want to do especially if it takes their relationship underground.

Keep reading Sandi's stuff ... also look at Starsky's advice all over the forum, his approach is really the way I would nudge you into doing.

Will do.

Other Thoughts:

The consequences I suppose have to be the realization of losing the family and losing me. Though right now she says she feels no fear of losing me. By that I have to GAL and work towards acting like I'm moving on. The gamble of this is she says "oh good, you're moving on. I'll move on too". But that is the strategy?

CaliGuy, you suggest I go out with a friend and keep it mysterious. Refuse to say who or where I'm going. We never have independently gone out and not shared before. Obviously this invites conflict, but what is the appropriate response? "Just a friend?", "Just took some time for myself"? Or do I cop to seeing a "friend" and/or place and give no details? It seems awkward and strange to give no information - though I realize some of the strategies will feel counterintuitive.

Friday, she'll be getting to the hotel early, probably take a spa session. I can easily not ask any questions when I arrive and not be interested in what she did during the day. Is this proper, or should I be actively interested?

Big question, regarding MC. We have a session tonight. Do I, in the session, state that I feel we should discontinue until W is committed to the marriage? Or do I after the session just tell W that we've gotten everything out of it that we can while she's still in the A and not committed? I was the one who pushed for MC and we started 3 days after D-Day. If it's not helpful, how do I get out of it without it seeming that I've given up on the marriage?

You guys are all right that she's comfortable with me and sees no danger. At the moment she knows I'm in it for the long run and am in a sense "waiting it out". She knows I have faith that we can get over this issue/hump and repair our relationship - though she is showing she's not really that interested in doing it. Even though she states she doesn't care if she loses me, she knows that she isn't going to. If I'm not fully prepared to walk away without giving my all, how can I help expedite the realization that it could all go away? I also know it's a marathon and not a sprint, but I'm action and result oriented and patience is hard.

[CaliGuy]

Detaching DOES NOT "suggest we don't talk anymore" Read up on that more .. you misunderstood ... Going Dark is not talking.

I too was "not there for her" ... but ya know what .. I was, I was always there, like a security blanket I was there. Sure I needed to LISTEN more but I was there. So ... you yank that blanket off a bit. And you are not there, physically ... you are out doing your thing.

My W never thought she would lose me either ... in fact as we open and share she referred to me as her rock and knew I would never leave. Well .. until I took my S Christmas day and she spent it alone on the beach realizing infact I had moved on. Took 3 months after that epiphany for her to end the A, and break it off for good with OM knowing I would have to have full transparency and she would have to commit. But She finally FELT that she was losing her H, I never said anything nor threatened it .. was by actions only.

CaliGuy, you suggest I go out with a friend and keep it mysterious. Refuse to say who or where I'm going. We never have independently gone out and not shared before. Obviously this invites conflict, but what is the appropriate response? "Just a friend?", "Just took some time for myself"? Or do I cop to seeing a "friend" and/or place and give no details? It seems awkward and strange to give no information - though I realize some of the strategies will feel counter-intuitive.

Yes .. go out alone, with a friend .. whatever and where ever. If she asks, "I'm going out and I'll be back later" .. no time line. She has lied and deceived you and at this point is wayward, she does not deserve and explanation at this point, its not that you are going out and sleeping with anyone .. you are going out and beginning to live your life "as if" she is gone.

Big question, regarding MC. We have a session tonight. Do I, in the session, state that I feel we should discontinue until W is committed to the marriage? Or do I after the session just tell W that we've gotten everything out of it that we can while she's still in the A and not committed? I was the one who pushed for MC and we started 3 days after D-Day. If it's not helpful, how do I get out of it without it seeming that I've given up on the marriage?

My advice as I was there ... I would REFUSE any MC till the A is over. As my MC therapist told us, she had never counseled a 3 headed marriage. If you read here its really impossible to do the MC things (Ya know like repairing damage, reconnecting, loving, trusting and forgiving) while one of the spouses is still involved with a lover.Waste of money and more importantly you could be using that time more productively GALing

You guys are all right that she's comfortable with me and sees no danger. At the moment she knows I'm in it for the long run and am in a sense "waiting it out". She knows I have faith that we can get over this issue/hump and repair our relationship - though she is showing she's not really that interested in doing it. Even though she states she doesn't care if she loses me, she knows that she isn't going to. If I'm not fully prepared to walk away without giving my all, how can I help expedite the realization that it could all go away? I also know it's a marathon and not a sprint, but I'm action and result oriented and patience is hard.

Till this changes ... she will not change. She knows there is little future with OM, but ... how can he deny her.. its now a challenge .. OM is smart and playing her perfectly and could have her tonight if he snapped his fingers.

DBing will help you flip the tables .. but you have to sometimes do what will feel counterproductive. You will have to transform yourself into the more desirable option.

There is more work ... but for now really work on GAL, 180, detaching all while maintaining the PMA ... stop doing small things for her ... stop pursuing.

[t33]

So, dropped the MC. Will wait until things are different and it could be helpful.

Will work on GAL and detaching. Must keep up PMA.

While leaving her job might not do anything, here's to hoping that it does. Here's to hoping that a shake up in her life snaps her back a bit. 8 more work days plus the rest of this one until she is out. Each day is soul sucking.

Learning detachment and stopping doing little things in the context of our relationship will be a process and difficult. I like things to move rapidly, but I don't think that is something that can be done here. It's going to take time.

Heck, even GALing is going to be difficult.

[CaliGuy]

t33

Good on the MC issue, its just not going to work while the WAS is focused outside the M, smart move

Careful about that 8 day thing ... just because she is not there does not mean mentally she is 'back' ... I only say this for your benefit ... putting a timeline on when things will be better throws us in a holding pattern, rather than doing the work, DBing... GAL, 180, detaching ... we are to busy counting the days ... toss the calendar and go out and live a bit.

[t33]

I know the 8 day thing won't mean she's back. I know timelines are no good, but at least it's something.

She had mentioned to the therapist before I ended it that she left her job because maybe it was a step in the right direction. I know, trust nothing she says, but her actions did have her quit her job. Confusing.

She constantly talks about the future and asking if I'm going to take a possible job that would take us out of the country for a few months (which she really wants to do). I know the rule says not to talk about the future because she's not interested in a future with me - but she's the one talking about it. Confusing again.

Holding pattern - yes - it feels that way. But there are things that can be done in that time, GAL, detaching, etc.

[t33]

So, ya - I'm F'd. Came to the hotel early to surprise her. OM was there. Had a calm conversation with him without her saying I know he doesn't want his family to find out and I hope it doesn't have to come to that. He knows how messed up this all is. She's told me the marriage is over. She hasn't wanted it for a long time. Gave me her rings and left for lunch with. A friend. She's pissed that she feels like I threatened him. She's angry and she gets so reactionary. I don't know what to do. Last resort?

What about our daughters and family. I'm lost.

[CaliGuy]

t33

Sorry it came to that ... and yeah your W is going to be pretty hot for a bit .... let her steam, You did not ask for this, and you did not go 'Dawgy" on the dude either (He beat the living daylights out of an OM and that term has just stuck) ... you simply gave him some truth and now its time to see where it goes ... most likely OM crapped himself and will run for the hills, but we will have to wait and see.

Right now your W is blaming you, you just stole her of her dreams and happiness .... BUT you also stood up for your M and your family which is respectable ... she will not give you this at the moment so you must hold firm, you will not live in an open marriage and if she wants to throw rings at you and file for D there is nothing you can do to control that, you can control how you react to her spew ... Get a Spew Jacket and prepare ... this is going to be a rough weekend .. hang in there and stay strong.

[t33]

What do I say? What do I do? I don't think I'll see her tonight. I don't know if she'll go home - I doubt back to our hotel room. Do I go home? Do I stay at the hotel?

The funny thing is - nothing is much different than where we were before. Just now I met him. And "threatened" him and his family. Scared him off probably. So yes - I ruined her "one chance of happiness". I guess it was a major event. I hope she reflects - but I'm sure it's going to be about me being evil.

Is there anything to discuss? What do I do?

[sandi2]

Well if you don't use the LRT now, when would you use it?

I know you are scared right now, but do not allow your fear to take over. She is the one who needs to be wondering what she needs to do and say. My advice is to not initiate any talk at this time.

I think you should leave the hotel and go home, or somewhere else. She has made her feelings known pretty clearly, so the last thing you need to do is act like the desperate, rejected H standing around with his hands in pockets. If you stay at the hotel, she will spend the rest of the time punishing you. So, don't stick around. Don't make any announcement or say anything about your intentions. Just leave. If and when she decides to contact you, tell her that under the circumstances you had no desire to carry through with original plans. And leave it at that. Say no more!

You have the chance to turn the dynamics around and now is the perfect time. You can use this opportunity to cause her to think you may be thinking of dumping her. By not staying with her and not have a R talk, and leaving her there.......that will get her attention more than anything you could do at the moment.

Back to what you were concerned earlier:

This is exactly where our problems began. I was absent. I 180'd to not be absent. This feels like a Last Resort technique. This seems like it puts us back to where the trouble started. So if that didn't work for our relationship when I was gone and missing, how, in my situation will this help fix the problem?

Below is what I had to say in my WW thread about this question you've asked.

First, the H has to see his own part of the downfall in the MR and work very hard to improve himself as a man. Notice, I said "man" and not H. The reason I said that is b/c the M is past the point of him showing her what an improved husband he can be. She is not interested in him as her H. If he now starts trying to implement all the things he sees he should have done in the past, it will hurt his effectiveness in getting this stitch turned around. For the WW, it is much too late, and she no longer cares about you doing those things. Based on what most newcomer LBH'S say, they think spending more time with the kids, showering the W with more attention, doing the housework, cooking, and running her errands (basically catering to her) will do the trick.