as_it_is - my adventure continues

[bravo61]

asitis,
i too have been told the "i don't trust you". um, i've never lied to her and she knows it. i believe part of it is they project, but part of it is that they truly believe that we won't change.

in my marriage, i was controlling at times and didn't show the respect that she deserved. over the last year, however, i have COMPLETELY pulled a 180 in that regard in spite of the spew. check my threads, she said awful things. that being said, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. meaning, do things cause its the right thing, not because you expect to get things out of it. does it suck? yeah, it does. but you've got kids that will remember this time and you want them to be proud of what you accomplished/tried to accomplish vis a vis being a good man in a sh***y circumstance.

that's my take but of course i'm divorced so it's not worth much and i'm certainly not a vet. but i wanted you to know that you are heard.

[asitis]

Thanks. It is hard to have done so much and to get I see that you've made some changes, but nothing has changed and I have come to the conclusion that I can't trust you.

It's also a bit of a mindf*ck when they say that they don't see wanting a divorce as walking away from their vows and reason for trust to be compromised the other way? Wow, I don't even know how to wrap my mind around the reasoning. You hurt me, once it was pointed out how much it hurt and that I was doing it, you apologized profusely and then set out to change, you have stuck to that and have done so much, you are willing to work with me to continue to address problems in the M, but I don't see it as betraying my vows about the whole better or worse and death do us part to want a D and not want to work on the M first.

I know there is a basic feeling of unworth from childhood under there. I know she is hurting. I know that despite what she says, she is dealing with other issues and trying to figure out who she is (she says she has found herself and it is only the pain of the collapse of our M that is causing her unhappiness at this point). I know that there is a bucket load of denial if she is not willing to acknowledge that she has some responsibility for the fact that she is walking away and that it is all because of me, but it is still hard to listen to and hard to restrain responding to. I know, STFU smoothies and more STFU smoothies.

First DB coaching session in an hour.

[asitis]

Good first phone consult with Jody. She was very positive about what I was doing and had some good insights and suggestions for sharpening my plan. One of the big insights is that my W, for all her distorted view of the M & me, gave me some good feedback in the not trusting comment, and that while we don't have much interaction to continue to demonstrate that I've changed vis-a-vis her, there are still ways I can.

The main way is to focus on my relationship with my kids and continuing to improve the affection and avoid any signs of criticism even when they are being difficult. Be warm, spontaneous, joyful, and loving with them is the most attractive thing I can be to my W, and that even though I've made a lot of progress, I've realized that there is still plenty of room for improvement.

She also sharpened the distinction on initiating contact, especially with regard to the kids, which was very helpful.

Definitely helped. If nothing else, I'm feeling less hopeful and have some renewed focus, which always helps me.

Now, back to getting ready to leave for vacation with the kids. Taking the book Playful Parenting along, which I've been meaning to have time to read, but put off for marriage-focused reading. I'll have some time to read on vacation, and it will be nice to take a total break from thinking about M & interacting with W, and focusing on the kids is both in person and in my reading/thinking is a win-win.

[bravo61]

[quote=asitis] It is hard to have done so much and to get I see that you've made some changes, but nothing has changed and I have come to the conclusion that I can't trust you.

It's also a bit of a mindf*ck when they say that they don't see wanting a divorce as walking away from their vows and reason for trust to be compromised the other way? Wow, I don't even know how to wrap my mind around the reasoning. You hurt me, once it was pointed out how much it hurt and that I was doing it, you apologized profusely and then set out to change, you have stuck to that and have done so much, you are willing to work with me to continue to address problems in the M, but I don't see it as betraying my vows about the whole better or worse and death do us part to want a D and not want to work on the M first.

I know there is a basic feeling of unworth from childhood under there. I know she is hurting. I know that despite what she says, she is dealing with other issues and trying to figure out who she is (she says she has found herself and it is only the pain of the collapse of our M that is causing her unhappiness at this point). I know that there is a bucket load of denial if she is not willing to acknowledge that she has some responsibility for the fact that she is walking away and that it is all because of me, but it is still hard to listen to and hard to restrain responding to.quote]

Man, i think you have married the doppelganger of my XW. however all of that falls under the "WHY?" category. mine told me that she "forgives me but chooses not to show me the Grace to move on with me". this from a formerly Godly woman that had great moral character and values.

as bad as this stinks, ruminating on her and her reasoning does nothing but f* with your mind. you HAVE to move past this for YOU! don't be stuck like i was for entirely too long. i'm praying for you and i hope your sitch has a much happier outcome than mine.

[asitis]

Thanks Bravo.

Sometimes we have to remember that they might not be entirely sure. Jody, the phone coach I talked to, suggested that there were several big triggers in my W's life that she is having to work through and are contributing to her probable MLC, and that we need to let the dust settle for a while until she knows better what is going on with her. Of course, she may never, or she may never be willing or able to communicate it. One has to steel oneself to this lack of certainty.

Time will tell ... or not. In the meantime plenty to focus on.

[mahhhty]

asitis - Good work on getting a coach. I found mine very helpful. One on one insight was very helpful to me.

[asitis]

Back from vacation with the kids. I thoroughly enjoyed my time with my boys, but some difficulties as well. First, this was a family camp I grew up going to, and went there two years ago with the W & kids, so there is a lot of nostalgia. I really realized how screwed up W is breaking up the family. It would have been so much more of a vacation with two parents, and her absence really was something that I was painfully aware of. Not that I missed her in her current phase - it would have been extremely stressful. But I realized just how much she has strayed from the values we shared. The woman I have known intimately for over 17 years would never walk away from our family and marriage, and this drove that home.

Coming home was also a splash of cold water. I really had a great time with the boys. When I contacted the W about the arrangements coming home (I know we should have taken care of this before I left), the contrast of having a wonderful time and the future of dealing with the constant negotiation and hassle of arrangements hit me full force in the face.

W expected that I would just drop the boys off, and head off to the apartment, even though it was Father's day, and Sunday-Wed. morning are my days in the house and with the boys. She assumed I would want a break after having the boys for 11 days. Her niece, who I & my boys love dearly, is in visiting. I pointed out that these were my days, etc. She said that she would talk to niece about them both going to the apartment (for those catching up, my W & I rotate between the shared apartment & the house, and the boys stay in the house to keep a sense of stability for them during this turmoil). She missed the boys, forgot about Father's Day, but would consider this. I suggested that I would be willing to have everyone stay at the house, as it was clear on the boundaries, and I know that the boys would want to see their mom after 11 days (although they were fine wo/ her). W said she wasn't comfortable with that.

I suggested that I take them to the apartment, and that I bring them over after she is done with work on Monday. She thought that was a reasonable compromise, and that I didn't need to decide right away, and should just get on the road (it was the 2nd of 2 8+ hour days of driving home) and think about what I wanted. A whole load of emotions were pouring through me. I just drove and let myself feel them. Anger, frustration, sadness, hurt, etc. I wanted to blast her. I wanted to point out that I really didn't want to continue being a half-time dad to my boys. I really wanted to tell her that it was time to grow up and realize that she couldn't run away from the relationship because we were in a traffic jam for the next 15 years with no off ramp, and that as hard as it was going to be to put the M back together, it was going to be harder for all of us to live like this. I wanted to zing her for walking away and betraying the values I knew were deeply important to her.

It also really it home during this vacation that this was an MLC (not just, but a lot of what was going on), as the woman I knew for so long would be appalled at the betrayal of her values.

So, I just sat with all the emotions. I'm a practicing Buddhist, and this is a basic part of the practice. I just sat (or in this case drove). As time went by, they lost their power. Not that I changed my mind, but I was no longer compelled to respond or lash out. I had space to see the bigger picture. W doesn't trust me and expects me to put her down or zap her. OK. Kids do want to be home, and will want to see their mom. She is that way she is right now, and just like being stuck in a traffic jam, getting all worked up about it and the people involved is only going to make me miserable.

After working through it, I called the W. OK, I don't need a break. The boys and I are having a great time and I don't want it to end. Still, they want to be home with their bed, their toys, etc. It would also be wrong for them to keep them from their mom after 11 days apart. I'll go to the apartment. I need to get some things done at the house, so I'll be over while she is working and will see them. I also expect that she will reciprocate after she takes them on vacation next month. She was relieved and very conciliatory about the reciprocation. I shared some of the cute moments with the boys (my DB coach has recommended this) and everything improved.

By the time I got home, I was in a good mood, cheerful, focused on the boys, and things went well.

I think that one of the problems is that when there is some change in situation (e.g., my taking the kids on vacation), I unconsciously get my hopes up that this will provoke a change in W. It won't be that easy.

More later.

[mahhhty]

Back from vacation with the kids. I thoroughly enjoyed my time with my boys, but some difficulties as well. First, this was a family camp I grew up going to, and went there two years ago with the W & kids, so there is a lot of nostalgia. I really realized how screwed up W is breaking up the family. It would have been so much more of a vacation with two parents, and her absence really was something that I was painfully aware of. Not that I missed her in her current phase - it would have been extremely stressful. But I realized just how much she has strayed from the values we shared. The woman I have known intimately for over 17 years would never walk away from our family and marriage, and this drove that home.

That sounds tough. Sandi recently posted a bunch of gems on Bob's Thread. One is about the difference between the woman you married and the one you have now (as a WW). Educate yourself. I found it enlightening and surprisingly familiar.

Coming home was also a splash of cold water. I really had a great time with the boys....... moments with the boys (my DB coach has recommended this) and everything improved.

So what are your thoughts? The way you wrote it up, it seems that the two of you worked together for an arguable solution.

I think that one of the problems is that when there is some change in situation (e.g., my taking the kids on vacation), I unconsciously get my hopes up that this will provoke a change in W. It won't be that easy.

Nothing about this is easy. Long term change for the better is what will work. Keep your chin up and look to building upon your strong relationship with the boys.

[asitis]

Now that I'm back from vacation with my boys (6 & 3) - which was a wonderful bonding time for us that I thoroughly enjoyed.

So, quick summary (other than details in my sig). I've got a DB coach and had one call before vacation, and am scheduled for another in 2 days. We are still rotating between the house and a shared apartment to keep the kids in the house for stability. This has largely worked out well, and neither of us has expressed an interest in changing the arrangement. Even though it is not fun to pack up and move twice a week, it is better than packing up both kids and moving them.

Vacation wo/ W at a family camp that we went to a couple years ago really drove home that my W is going through MLC, as the woman I have known so long had strong values around issues of commitment and family and would never have broken up our family and M, especially given how hard I've worked on my sh*t (which she acknowledges some of) and how I've demonstrated that I'm willing to work as long and hard as it takes to build a new M and keep the family together.

She asked for photos of the vacation, so I posted those on FB (some for all my friends, and some additional ones for family to not spam my feed). She liked them all, even the ones that made it fairly obvious that she was not with us.

Coming home from vacation also drove home how much I'm not looking forward to 15-18 years of constant negotiation with an exW. It was so nice to just have the boys and not have to go through the aggravation of working out who would get the boys when we returned, who would be in the house and who in the apartment, etc. I know that latter will not be an issue, but having to negotiate minor details regarding the boys is a major PITA.

So, what am I doing? I'll try to keep it short and make multiple posts on the things I'm doing to keep it simple. Here is one.

DB coach & I talked about my struggling over wearing my ring. W took hers off the day she asked for D. I've gone back and forth. It is obvious right now that I don't have a W and that we don't have an M. Further, both my IC and DB coach agreed that W has need to feel like she is being heard and in control of the process. I also am not feeling all that much warmth and almost no desire for my W given the sitch. We also have recognized that I need to not be signalling that she can't be cake eating (i.e., I can't do H services and tasks she has relied on my doing as part of M division of labor), and that I should be signalling that I'm moving on w/ my life w/ or wo/ her. Yet, I also feel strongly that I stand by my marriage, that while I'm not feeling "in love with her" right now, I know that can be rebuilt, and I am prepared to keep the door open for a long time and stand ready to do the work to build a new, healthy, loving M if she ever chooses to come to the table and work on it too.

Further, in the last MC session we had (we've agreed that as long as she is not willing to invest in the M there is no point continuing MC at this point unless there is a conflict we need help resolving), I was not wearing my ring due to having to take it off for a pottery class & left it at the house (perhaps unconsciously on purpose?) and wouldn't be able to get it until a couple days later when our rotation put me back in the house. She clearly noticed, and was very agitated during the session. Her eyes got red like she was holding back tears. It was obvious something was bothering her. I stopped mid-sentence when I noticed and asked if she was OK. She made up some excuse like she wondered if I was angry and if so, this was the place to talk about it. I was a bit excited to be making some progress addressing some nagging practical matters, but I am sure I wasn't acting angry. It may not have been the absence of the ring, but she definitely noticed - of that I am sure.

So, what to do? Jody suggested that I might take the ring off and hang it on a chain around my neck. It symbolically showed that I wasn't in an M any more - at least at this time, demonstrated that I was respecting her wishes to move toward D, and still showed a commitment by keeping not stopping to wear it. She also mentioned it would symbolically show that it was close to my heart. I'm not sure about this last bit, but the more I thought about it, the more I liked the idea. Jody said she would notice it, be curious, and that it would cause her to think. She also said she might not ask, but that it would stick in her head.

I haven't worn a chain since my early 20s, and felt a bit odd about it. As I didn't have one, I went to the local jewelry store and bought a fairly sturdy and plain stainless steel chain that would mostly allow everything to stay tucked into my shirt (I don't really want to advertise it).

Took the ring off right before we left for vacation, and am getting used to having it around my neck. Felt a bit self-conscious when I got home from vacation, as I was wearing a polo shirt and it wanted to pop out when I bent over to get luggage out of the car. I didn't really want to be flashing the ring in W's face or having to deal w/ a discussion, as I had just finished 2 8-hour + days of driving with two young kids.

When my family asked, I told them I was wearing garlic to ward off interest from roving vampires. I thought it was funny, and I explained that as I knew I was a bit vulnerable to female attention, I wanted to have a physical reminder and potential stop sign to keep me from going down that road. They understood and thought the full explanation (which I gave above to you all) made sense.

OK, I said I would try to keep it short. I'm constitutionally incapable of really short, but I'll stop there for the moment.

[NDY]

Hi asitis. Don't know what to say except your strength is an inspiration.

Peace