Has W been in IC? If so, has she explored her fear of anger issue there? I ask because my W is terrified that I will get explosively angry, even though I never have. I have had anger issues, but it was more a quick trigger of irritability, pushing away, or even a subtle put down. Not good, but...
Her father while generally very mild-mannered would occasionally go off into uncontrolled rages where he would spew all kinds of nastiness. This terrified my W and her sister & mother into walking on eggshells, being overly attentive to his needs, and not making their own needs known clearly. My W still doesn't trust me despite a lot of progress on my anger issues, but it is in part because of her issues with her father and fear of any signs of anger being a sign of impending explosions. No matter what I do, until she comes to grips with that, there will be issues of trust.
Just raising a possibility that you look at her family of origin for anger issues that may be part of the issue.
She has ... she was in IC when the MLC hit Stage2, HORRIBLE IC ... with her "You should do whatever makes you happy" approach ... even if that means OM. I have shared the MC appt with her but will save that for now. She moved on from her and has been in and out with different IC's but recently she is really starting to look inward and is trying to go to her childhood to understand the whys and hows of her issues. Currently she is seeing a priest and another IC/Physical therapist ... I recommended the particular priest (She asked) and I have met the IC/PT and came away with a very positive vibe. What you descibe came up, she realizes she is sensitive about this, noticed her mom is the same way, shared a story last night about how she placed a hand on her moms shoulder and the old woman almost had a heart attack ... very high strung family and she realizes its less me (Though easier to blame someone else right?) and a good deal of her which she needs to start dealing with. Example ... last night she was going to come over to my place at 6:30 ... she was talking to a fried, the friend is a talker and she did not get out till late, on the freeway and called .. 7:15, she was terrified I was mad, I was calm ... actually noticed she was late but was cooking and calm, figured she would get there when she got there if at all .. no big, I learned her I can not control her. She expressed she needs to deal with this anxiety as it was all on her end because I obviously was not mad at her. Now in her defense ... there were times I would take this as disrespect and be upset ... but I am kinda over trivial things like that. So yeah .. we both have pegged the MIL as the origin and now its a matter of trying to deal with how to get over that hurdle.
So just sharing a bit more of the journey ... thinking one day all these threads would be interesting to sit and read start to back.
W very talkative yesterday, TM throughout and sharing where she was, with whom, when she would be leaving ... not that I ask nor honestly care but I can see this is her way of trying to reassure me she is not 'misbehaving' ... to be honest the only OM/A thoughts I have are the past hurts and they are not often.
We discussed when we would have our talk (Retrouvaille homework every night .. 10 minute letter and a 10 minute sharing session) I am not pressing but would be discouraged if we did not do the work. I picked up S and went home, cooked for him and cooked some lunches for myself. W was to be over around 6:30, like I mentioned in the previous post she called 7:15 ish apologizing that she was late, fearful I was upset. I was'nt at all, I was busy trying to get everything cleaned up and set for today. She came by around 8 and we had our 'session'
The topic was what attracted us to our spouse. I found what she shared interesting. She shared that it was how stable I was, how stability is one of the priorities she needs in her life. Mentioned that I have been her rock from day one ... funny choice of words huh? ... Rock. I questioned this as back then I never considered myself a rock, I was young and a goof ball .. but she said while that was true she knew I would never just up and leave her, that I would always be there. The timer went off but we chose to continue to just talk, she shared her anxiety about her job search, money (Share more $$ problems ... thanks MLC) I STFU and listened, did not offer to fix the situations just heard her out. She told me she feels a fog is lifting but is still there, that she has a hard time keeping focused on just one thing for a time, when she prays she starts 'here' and ends up 'there' very quickly .. focus is a concern. She also shared that she extended the lease on the place she is in (I had named it the W/OM Lovenest) as tears welled in her eyes she said "I know you would never move in there with me but I am stuck there till May16" We expressed how moving in with each other was not something we were ready for at the moment but the air was cleared about leases (Mine is up in Sep15) and what some options were if we get to 'that' place ... I told her the place is less of a trigger, its in a good location, and the $$ is not bad and it might be a good place for a bit till we save to buy again (being open and not allowing the past to 'own' me). This put her at ease, but I was clear we are not 'there' yet, was nice to address it like adults, open and honest with no games. She then shared the IC/PT discussion she had, told me that she asked about things we are going through, that she wants help in the affection department ... I was surprised, seems W is more tuned to wanting to meet my needs than she ever has been before... the fact I shared these are needs and not wants seems to have planted a seed that is starting to take root.
We talked till about 9, nice and calm on my end .. she was a little stressed just with the Job issue that will be there till she finds work and has more of an idea of what to expect.
This morning I dropped off S, I could see some stress on her face, she asked why I took the dog, I told her she complains that he wakes her and she can not sleep and I wanted her to get some rest. She then started in on me about health insurance, I told her my meeting was today, then she demanded to know what time ... mini Monster came out. I stayed calm, left .. she later apologized for losing her temper, I take this for face value .. she is stressed about her life, so much on her plate ... all her circus and her mess to clean up I will continue to go about what I am doing.
I do catch myself thinking after these events if she can ever be the wife I truly need, one who can fill my needs as its just not natural for her, I am skeptical at this point but then think of all the changes I made and how she is skeptical of those ... time will tell .. I am not so focused on deadlines any longer, God has this and me all figured out so I just hope to see the signs and do what I should ... and I am at peace with that.
Hi Cali, I'm glad to read that you and your W are making progress on the homework. It sounds like that was a really useful talk. Honest and both trying to move forward. It sounds as though it may be slow and painful at times, but the direction is good I think. And your W truly appears to be trying to reconnect and make amends.
Thanks for posting on my thread. I draw inspiration and hope from your sitch. Knowing that you have been through the very worst. And for a good while too. And seeing where you are now, it is heartening to read.
It sounds as though you are not at a point where you are 'all in.' You are tentatively feeling your way back into a possible M, but not yet sure whether it is the right thing for you. Can I ask how you feel at this point about forgiveness? I know there was a big discussion about it on your thread. Do you think you are holding back because of who your W was? Is it hard to let go of that? I'm asking because I find it hard now to imagine H and me together. Not because he may not want to be - just because I find it hard to imagine it. Do you feel that way, or is it becoming easier?
Feel free not to answer if the questions are too intrusive, and good luck going forward :-)
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
Toots ... I do not think after all I have shared here, and all I have learned I would ever feel a question is to intrusive, nor personal ... heck I would be comfy running around the forum naked at this point .. no shame in my game (Sorry for the Calvin n Hobbs visual)
It might sound as if I am not all in... its a legitimate observation. My feeling on this, I will try to explain it the best I can. I have gone through what .. 6+ OM breakups .. this is the first time I know deep down its over and has been ... so there is no "Where is OM and A" in my thinking, if she is out I am not thinking she is with OM. But in my sitch over these past couple years when I pressed and pursued she pulled back hard... the ongoing 'dance'.... so I am very aware I can not do this ... but at times I have to make a move and state my needs otherwise, yeah I would rather not pursue the M going back to the old M which I now realize I was not happy in. Going through this process I realized where I went wrong, I have needs .. not wants, and those must be filled for me to have the kind of M that I feel I deserve, my old M was one sided as I was the fixer/pleaser ... conflict avoider and it left me very frustrated ... with "Why won't she love me after I did all these things for her" A good chunk of this was addressed (not fixed) over the weekend. I do question if W can honestly fill these needs as she is not wired that way, she never learned now to from her parents, so THAT is the hang up I think we are attempting to solve. As its been said .. I am far ahead of her in the mirror/self work department so I am patiently waiting for her to do the work she is obviously now doing, knowing it took me a long time and she deserves a chance to be better.
As far as forgiveness. .... yeah a few threads ago we had a nice educational blow-up about forgiveness. To be honest ... after the debate on my thread I was left with ... A.) Can I forgive her for everything, knowing about MLC but that still does not justify what she did and how she did it B.) Can I forgive her when she has not asked for forgiveness, nor in her mind felt she had an A as 'we were separated'.
So with A.) I knew I could forgive her, not that that took away the pain and hurt, but holding on to that was not healthy for ME, it was weighing ME down ... made no difference to her really. With B.) Even harder, how can you forgive without being asked for it ... Even with my faith when I screw up I own up to what I did, admit it and then ask for forgiveness. She wrote me a letter over the weekend, for the first time she admitted the A, said it was wrong, showed remorse about the A, the lies and deceit and asked for forgiveness .... let me tell you I felt I forgave her already but after that it it felt alot like complete release of it.
So yes .. I forgave her, sure it still hurts and I still struggle with the A, the things she said during Monster ... talking CRUEL things ...but I forgave .. some things you can not forget, I just am dealing with those issues if and when they come up, like all things in this its a cycle, and less intense each time.
So as predicted the push pull dance is very much in session. W is pulling back a bit.
Yesterday morning started out rough, little spat over nothing, mini monster from her but she later TM and apologized and seemed to 'come down' a bit. With the Retrouvaille weekend behind us, its difficult as we are to share/discuss things every night ... basically homework every night. Last nights topic .. button issue.. "Anger". I know this has been a issue in our M, but honestly during her anger stage, which lasted about 2 years solid, I was not educated on MLC so I obviously made a ton of mistakes and was a complete "Bait Eater" .... now I see the 'game' as bad as it sounds and I refuse to engage. However W seemed to almost sabotage last night and did not seem interested in 'doing the work' so I let it go, did not bite, even went dark. Instead I went out ... GAL.. went to my buddy's show, had a couple beers, enjoyed the late night ride, clear sky, half moon but bright and thought/reflected about where I am and I am at peace right now, knowing I have done all I can but realizing my energy level is really low with all this. I accept there are just times it drains you and you need time but I do question if MY needs will ever be met by W. I just do not know, and that has me 'stuck' at the moment.
Other than ^^^^ stuff ... I continue to be impressed with the Retrouvaille program, Tuesday we all recived an email, one of encouragement (W has not read this yet) and last night I received a call from one of the presenting couples, she was asking how things were, told me what I felt was totally normal ... this was not a "Don't forget the post meeting" call .. though she did remind me .. but it was like she actually cared and wanted me to know she was there to help. Was the first time since I have been on this forum I felt someone actually cared about my M not even knowing the particulars.... where as many of you might be able to relate just a couple wifes of what a MLC/LBS goes through the common feeling seems to be ... "Dude time to call it a day". So yeah .. God must know my tank is on fumes and he is trying to nudge me along.
W called, just to wish me a good day, admitted we were not on the best terms last night, she did not sleep much. I was detached ... not really wanting her 'in' right now, I am just so tired of this lately ...I know there is much more to go through and its hard. I will get out today .. refuel .. get 'back to center'
Love Calvin and Hobbes!! Oh...I have warm fuzzies in my stomach reading that line.
Yeah, you are waaaay ahead of the mirror work. It will take W some more time to walk through her own journey figuring out her stuff and resolving them.
Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
Going through this process I realized where I went wrong, I have needs .. not wants, and those must be filled for me to have the kind of M that I feel I deserve, my old M was one sided as I was the fixer/pleaser ... conflict avoider and it left me very frustrated ... with "Why won't she love me after I did all these things for her" A good chunk of this was addressed (not fixed) over the weekend. I do question if W can honestly fill these needs as she is not wired that way, she never learned now to from her parents, so THAT is the hang up I think we are attempting to solve.
What's happening with the 5LL book that I suggested you get for W? I think that will address that ^^ very problem and get you to talk about your needs in authentic ways based on the 5LL principles.
You've just attended Retrouaville and I think adding 5LL in the mix now is a very good and useful tool for you at this juncture.
I just bought and read another Chapman book that really opened my eyes a bit. The title is Everybody Wins: The Chapman Guide to Solving Conflicts Without Arguing.
Love Calvin and Hobbes!! Oh...I have warm fuzzies in my stomach reading that line.
Yeah, you are waaaay ahead of the mirror work. It will take W some more time to walk through her own journey figuring out her stuff and resolving them.
What's happening with the 5LL book that I suggested you get for W? I think that will address that ^^ very problem and get you to talk about your needs in authentic ways based on the 5LL principles.
You've just attended Retrouaville and I think adding 5LL in the mix now is a very good and useful tool for you at this juncture.
I just bought and read another Chapman book that really opened my eyes a bit. The title is Everybody Wins: The Chapman Guide to Solving Conflicts Without Arguing.
Thank you Wonka and I totally agree with the concept of buying the book, I have it on Kindle, both the iPad and my phone (I read it on the laptop via the reader). I have mentioned it a couple times but have not really had much feedback from W about it.
That being said ... observing her, she has ... I kid you not .. about 15-20 self help books all over the place, there is so much going on with her ... if I had to describe her at this moment its like watching a Hummingbird with ADD ... literally all over the place and she can not focus on one thing for very long. She has even shared this with me the past week, told me she tries to pray and will start off wanting peace and heath then her mind races and she is thinking about what tweak in her resume she needs.
So I do think actually buying a hard cover book would be useful, I am not confident she would read it just yet, she is currently reading 3 books, one the Priest gave her about Forgiveness, another that appears to be a novel of some sort, and a third from what I can tell is a more zen/peace/happiness book.
I would love that she reads it .. I think I actually could benefit from reading it again now that I find myself at this point of the process. I may grab it this weekend and read it myself, if she would like to peek out of curiosity then thats bonus.
She has so much going on ....Job search, classes for her Photography business she is now focused on,medical insurance, Classes for the job force stuff... not to mention wanting to do the gym, physical therapy, counseling, the M and rebuilding is down on the list, Me and our M is not the #1 priority but seeds were planted that it needs to be so she has made an effort the past few weeks ... calling to say Hi, asking me how I am .. how my day is without it being about "I need this or that" So that being said ... I realize me pressuring her at this point could be like poking Mt Vesuvius with a stick. I want to keep moving forward but she is still figuring out herself so I will be patient and wait ... we are MUCH better off right now than we have been in years even though I get antsy and want that New shiny M I dream I can have ... truth is she needs time to do the work, to become W 2.0 and then I have to make a decision if I can accept what she is able to offer me, as well as she must accept me.
Nothing much more than that, as I will continue to grow, continue to work ... currently I am turning more focus on my career which has taken a back seat as my focus was way to much on my sitch and M. I feel I need to put that on low, let it slowly cook, stir it a bit here and there ... but I really need to focus on work, and myself getting into shape. I have lost about 7 lbs the past 2-3 weeks .. goal of another 8 lbs would be great by the end of July if I can do it. Need to GAL and run a bit more as I have finally found a diet that seems to be working for me.
Wow - what a journey you are on and the work continues. I think it's a good metaphore for life - the work is never done. Every day is another day to work to improve something, someone, ourselves, etc....
I swear Cali, our sitches are different, but your explanations of where you are at emotionally are spot on for me! Maybe the LBS time lines are similar.
I think to myself too many times, I just don't know if I see a future with H anymore. I look back, even prior to BD, and see so many of my own needs H did not meet. I was really lonely, for a long time. He is stubborn, and he is who he is, I don't know....
However, I commend you for giving W the chance to continue making her way through, giving her some time to work on herself. It really does seem she is trying. I like hearing you say you will give her the chance to do that, THEN see if she can meet your needs for a new R. In the meantime, you continue to GAL and live your life. I like it, you got it. I think that is a great path to take.
Me 48 H 46 S 11 M 2004 BD 8/13 H moved out 2/15 -live in the present, enjoy the beauty around and within you, explore your new future-
Yeah you are dead on with the ... different sitch, same thoughts. I think to myself .. was I just saving the M to save the M because currently, and keep in mind this is almost 2 years of separation and MLC rollercoaster rides later talking (This little boy has a tummy ache and wants off the ride) ... I question what W can offer me .... sure we get along, I enjoy being with her, and I love the thought of a family and S having both parents around. BUT ... and there is a BUT ... I feel zero intimacy with her and that is very important to me, its a NEED not a want, I refuse to go back and live in a sexless/loveless marriage and lately I have been wrestling some of what I consider the Hangover Demons ... sex, I was told she was medically broken, well that was not the case, I understand she closed that door to me with our issues, but how fast it was opened for OM stings, and its something I have not got over. Even now its not on the table ... will it ever be or do I get sucked right back into a M where sex is not going to be a part of things. I think ^^^ this is my hang up.. why I hesitate .. why I am struggling. I crave the physical closeness but realize its pursuit. I notice the frustration coming back, W is all over the place pulled from different directions and our M is one of them. I do get the vibe of Do this Cali and you get that .. ... again .. old M stuff where I had to jump through hoops to attempt to get my needs met only to end up frustrated after the goal was moved further out .... something I need to address.
We have another Post meeting this weekend, I have had some time to really think about things (This might not be a good thing), and honestly I am just not sure. I do want to allow her time, if there is a chance I/we can be happy in this M I want to give that a chance, I just do not know how much more I have in me to wait this out (again MLC time warp ... we touched on this morning she forgets how long its been, feels like for her it was just a couple months), and deep down ... I am not certain she can be and give me what I need in this.
