What I'm doing is clearly not working. So I obviously have to change it up... or redefine my objectives. I am trying to process everything you are saying.
One of the lessons in DB, not every sitch is the same right .. Do what works, I detached (well for the most part .. truth is I was/am horrible at it at times.) and started looking at my W less like my W, more like a science project. Keep in mind my sitch is of the MLC variety but the basics are the same.
Originally Posted By: RAI
If by "affaired-down", you mean hunkered down into the affair, then you are absolutely correct.
No, if you research 'Affaired Down' it implies you are the prize here. She picked a goof who does not measure up to you nor what you can provide ... he is the quick feel good drug but you are the steady healthy diet .... currently she is high on him and getting fat off you if you get my drift.
Originally Posted By: RAI
1) What to do when DB advice runs counter to legal advice?
This is no different than when DB advice that counters others advice, your gut, your religious beliefs ... truth is you are driving and in control with what you do. Your lawyer and sis I would assume have your interests at heart, just as your friends .. but typically these are people who are not saving YOUR marriage either. Legally and financially it would have made more sense (and cents) for me to go through and get D, In my heart I could not do this .. my gut .. could not do it. Bottom line its your choice, it truly is.
Originally Posted By: RAI
2) Won't these actions just increase the hostility? as you noted, I am already hostile. Does it not make more sense to just D so I can truly detach?
RAI ... yes they might increase the hostility .. but they will also show you are a man who refuses to live in an open marriage, have your W rub your nose in it as she TM OM in the house you share, ya know .. the same one built around your family .. the very family W is chosing to destroy.
Originally Posted By: RAI
3) No offense, Cali (or anyone else on this board), but it's sometimes hard to take advice from an anonymous individual who is not truly in my shoes. Although I trust you and your motives completely, you don't stand to suffer my consequences. I know I am free to take or leave your advice, but I know you care, so I am asking you: why should I take your advice?
No offense taken .. if anything that's pure honesty and I respect that. Sure no need to take my advice nor anyone elses for that matter, its you who has to live your live and its you who will face the consequences of the choices you make. And often there are conflicting views on what to do what not to do ... again .. YOUR sitch and you have to trust yourself. My motives here are simple, I came here a hurt angry little boy, I was taught by a collection of amazing people here the process of DB, there comes a time when you realize its not so much about saving the M, its saving the individual .... that's the truth, once you become independent regardless of what the WAS does ... seems to change everything. My advice reading your sitch ... you are not going to 'nice' her back.
If you want a D, that's fine .. if you want to continue living in an open marriage .. again your choice, I just do not see anything changing in your sitch until you start actually applying the tactics DB teaches.
Originally Posted By: RAI
Running a 1/2 marathon is NOT more of the same, but for the most part you are absolutely right - I am predictable. I have been thinking long and hard about other GAL activities. Something I always wanted to do. Truth is, I am already pretty content going to movies, going out to eat from time-to-time, and socializing with friends. I don't see myself sky diving, or learning an instrument, or joining a book club. Should I do something just to do it? I really want it to be something that I will enjoy and that will be "me". I really already enjoy the things I am doing now (the running, learning). I know it is more of the same, but I can't think of anything. Any suggestions how to tease out something new?
I am not saying you need to run out and buy leathers and join a biker club (like I did ...lol) But ... ok lets go with what I did over the past year or so.
*Coached S's baseball team *Took a class at Church and went through the RCIA became Catholic *Bought a Harley, go riding often *Joined a Softball team *Joined a Sunday Football team *Met up with friends for dinner/drinks/convo more often *Focused myself more into work, created side projects increased efficiency
Ok .. so those were my golden GAL's ... some I did during the M, most new .. notice a trend .. NONE had anything to do with W's approval nor attempting to win her back .. all for me, made me feel good, a part of something, for ME
Meet-ups are another good thing, maybe try one of those .. no commitment from you .. but a total 180.
Originally Posted By: RAI
No, not just observations. Inherent in your comments is advice. If you give advice, you have an obligation to stand by it. Where are the vets who are going to say: "Cali is right on! You have to start doing things for yourself! Stop leaning on the L and your sister. BE A MAN."? I am scared. I totally admit it. Fear has dominated me for the last 2 years.
Cali, I really appreciated your post. Thanks so much for taking the time. I do hope you will reply.
RAI
I am not saying do not lean on your L nor your Sis ... but yeah .. in a sense ... your L, sis, me .. no one here has to live the life you live, thats you ... are you happy where you are at? If so .. keep on doing what you are doing .. if not .. change it ... its that simple.
Myself .. my W and the A are over ... but I have said these words "I will not finance your A" "The A you are involved with is disrespectful to me, our S, our M, our family, not to mention yours and I will not live in an open marriage" "D is not what I want and though I respect your decision, make no mistake about it, I have no interest in us being friends after it is final, I would never keep a friend who has treated me as you have"
A strange thing happens when you stand up for yourself ... your self esteem builds, your self worth improves and you realize you are the prize, you will be just dandy regardless. Once you feel this ... and set your boundaries on what you will and will not stand for, the WAW may spew and throw a fit .. but they learn to respect you are no longer going to be pushed around.
Read up on Sandis WW threads .. may give you a new perspective.
Stasky's Threads are golden too .. the old ones when he had a different name.
Someone else will have to help you there, unfortunately. I'm horrible with boundaries but lucky that for the most part I haven't needed many. She will spew at you and see you as the enemy but some boundaries in your case are needed and are more important for her respecting you. Respect in this case trumps the enemy view.
Only thing I can say is make sure you really have a well thought out plan with them before you do anything. Messing up certain ones can cause more issues than not doing it at all.
Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
Cali and Fogg, my considered replies will be forthcoming. In the meantime, I have a quick question. I am getting together with someone tonight. I don't want to tell my W with whom, but I also don't want / need to keep it a secret from kids. They will ask, and I don't want to sound secretive. What do I tell children? What do I tell W? I don't want to lie or make something up.
A speedy reply would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Why don't you want to be secretive? It wouldn't hurt to be somewhat mysterious to W without having to lie.
You could just say "I'm just going out for a little" or "I'm just meeting a friend" when the kids ask. That's generally what me and W say when kids ask in our situation.
We don't ask each other directly either way. Kids sometimes ask "who? or Where?" afterwards, and we just tell them don't worry about it.
Last edited by Fogg; 05/28/1511:31 PM.
Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
I did not have time to reply yesterday. But I did see your post and took your advice. I did not tell my W where I was going and the kids were curious but did not press further. Thanks for your timely response. I will use it going forward.
Originally Posted By: Fogg
Someone else will have to help you there, unfortunately. I'm horrible with boundaries but lucky that for the most part I haven't needed many. She will spew at you and see you as the enemy but some boundaries in your case are needed and are more important for her respecting you. Respect in this case trumps the enemy view.
Only thing I can say is make sure you really have a well thought out plan with them before you do anything. Messing up certain ones can cause more issues than not doing it at all.
I again pressed my L about the phone, because I would really like to institute that barrier. I asked why I need to keep the phone and monitor her usage. Her reply: "I do not know where the information will lead us at this point but, it may be relevant concerning your children. As such, even though you have the history, I would think to be able to show that the contact/conduct continues would be beneficial." I have heard this from another L as well. So it is helpful in D proceedings but detrimental to DB. I know that laying down the "I will not support your phone usage as long as you are using it to disrespect me by living in an open marriage" would send a clear signal. I am torn.
I had convo with W yesterday. details to follow...
I think you may benefit from sandi's wisdom here ... she really offers some priceless insight to the WW frame of mind. There are 3 treads this is the first.
if you research 'Affaired Down' it implies you are the prize here. She picked a goof who does not measure up to you nor what you can provide ... he is the quick feel good drug but you are the steady healthy diet .... currently she is high on him and getting fat off you if you get my drift.
True, true and true.
Quote:
Bottom line its your choice, it truly is.
Got it. In fact, in re-reading your last post, I think this quote was the crux of your entire argument. That, and that I am not truly applying DB principles. Looks like I have some more thinking to do.
Last night, I was talking to my W. I began in my usual passive aggressive tone. She was also very defensive. I told her that we have to start telling the kids. W feels that our S11 had issues before BD. She still largely denies that the breakdown in R has effect on the kids. I also was a bit annoyed because the housekeeper came two weeks in a row, and we agreed that we cannot afford weekly housekeeping. She wanted to know how much money we have in savings and I refused to tell her. This really ticked her off, because she feels it is her money. I told her, that she has everything she needs and asked her why she needs to know? I told her what I thought the realities of the situation are: financial fallout of D, emotional fallout for children. I reiterated that I did not choose D, but I am ready to proceed. Then, for some reason, my tone softened. I clearly stated an ultimatum to her. I consciously and unabashedly stole it (with modifications for my sitch) from OnGuard. I told her that I will not live in an open marriage and before I would even consider reconciliation she would have to: 1) voluntarily go NC with OM 2) voluntarily initiate 100% transparency 3) We would have to move to a new city 4) She would need to see a psychiatrist 5) She would have to have true remorse for her actions 6) If the above conditions were met, we would have to then go to a MC of my choosing
I also told her that: 1) D is her choice and that she has full responsibility/control over the decision 2) much damage (especially relationships) has been done and will need to be repaired 3) the bulk of the work will be painful and difficult, especially for her, and especially for the first few months. I did not sugar coat it. 4) Even if she were somehow willing to do the work - which I doubt she will be, I may still decline the offer to reconcile 5) I will not reconcile for financial reasons or for the kids 6) a new relationship can be built out of the ashes of the old, broken one, and that others have come back from the brink successfully.
What followed was very weird: we sat opposite each other for about an hour, barely talking at all, while she processed what I had said. She asked only two things of any substance over the entire time: 1) "Why would you be willing to reconcile?" I told her that I may not be willing, but if I did it is because I believe in the institution of marriage. 2) "What if you cannot find the love for me again?" To which I replied, as usual, that love is a choice.
It may not have happened exactly like this, but I ended by saying, all you have to do is ask me four words "What will it take?" (Stolen from Starsky - in OnGuards thread). In the meantime, we continue towards D.
I read every post in those threads about a month ago. Awesome. My previous post actually has Sandi's fingerprints all over it. Nevertheless, perhaps I have not internalized it properly. I will re-read sometime.
WOW - RAI. That is a lot! Nice job with standing your ground. I guess the only question I had is did SHE bring this up by showing remorse or did YOU do the majority of the talking.
If it's the latter, no matter how true and valid it is, I wonder if it falls on deaf ears due to her still being in the fog and not showing remorse.
If you gave her 6 things SHE has to do, why would she want to go through all of that, if she is still in the fog and didn't approach you first?
M-33 W-33 S-11, S-8 M-11, T-14 BD - 12/26, Divorce Filing and admits to affair (her) 4/18 I moved out 5/23
I guess the only question I had is did SHE bring this up by showing remorse or did YOU do the majority of the talking.
It's a very valid question. I did ALL the talking and most likely it will fall on deaf ears due to her still being in the fog and not showing remorse.
I hesitated to put this in my previous post, but I truly do NOT think she has what it takes to do the "work". Either way, I put it out there. Whatever happens, I still feel like it need to be stated clearly for her.
Regardless, it does not affect my course of action and I am proceeding with mediation.
