Wayward Wife & LRT (5)

[Defacto]

Time to start a another new thread!

Part 1: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2556647#Post2556647

Part 2: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2565389&page=1

Part 3: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2565428#Post2565428

Part 4:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...t=11&page=1

The story so far...
-STBX involved in A since late December/early January 2015
-I begin versions of LRT in mid-February
-STBX moves in with her parents first week of April
-I expose A to OM's W in mid-April
-STBX threatens to file for D immediately following exposure of A
-Holding pattern for now
-Pulling farther back from STBX

As a refresher, this is the text dialogue between STBX and I today:

W: Let me know if ignoring phone calls and text messages is going to be the new normal so I can know who I should contact in case of emergency.

W: Great. You've chosen to make this ugly. Good job.

Me: Hi. I've been super busy. If there is an emergency with the kids, please call or text me. I'll make myself available when it concerns them.

[T384]

Perfect

Now don't get pulled in when she starts acting like a toddler in toys r us

[GH31]

The story so far...
-STBX involved in A since late December/early January 2015
-I begin versions of LRT in mid-February
-STBX moves in with her parents first week of April

OK.

-I expose A to OM's W in mid-April

Excellent, excellent job.

Perfect.

I exposed my Mrs' affair too and have never regretted it. Not for one single nanosecond.

-STBX threatens to file for D immediately following exposure of A

Script.

-Holding pattern for now

Script.

-Pulling farther back from STBX

Good.

As a refresher, this is the text dialogue between STBX and I today:

W: Let me know if ignoring phone calls and text messages is going to be the new normal so I can know who I should contact in case of emergency.

W: Great. You've chosen to make this ugly. Good job.

Script. Ignore it. Kudos to you for not rising to the bait.

Me: Hi. I've been super busy. If there is an emergency with the kids, please call or text me. I'll make myself available when it concerns them.

Excellent.

Very, very well done. Perfect.

You get this process.

Keep doing this.

GH31

[Defacto]

T0 & GH,
Thanks so much for the support and vote of confidence. I need it as both of you know how tough this is.

Just a brief update, well there's really not much.
There's been NC with STBX since the text exchange yesterday.
Last night, met up with some friends and flooded the jukebox with Steely Dan, Cat Stevens, A Tribe Called Quest, and the Breeders.

Tonight, STBX will drop off the kids and I will have them through Monday morning. Tonight, D4 and I will probably have a sleep over, watch a movie, make popcorn, etc. I picked up a giant steak because my beautiful kids love to eat medium rare meat cooked on the grill. I obviously did something right as a father!
Saturday afternoon, the kids and I will be at a birthday party. I'm also thinking about taking the kids to the zoo on Sunday morning. Phew. Sounds exhausting and I love it!

It would be wise to expect STBX to lash out tonight when she drops off the kids. I'm expecting her to ask why I am pulling back. If she asks, I will validate and explain that I've been busy but each parent deserves to have uninterrupted time with the kids when it is their time with them. If she asks why we can't still be friends, I will keep it short and say that I just don't think that's possible right now.

Thoughts?

[Starsky309]

It would be wise to expect STBX to lash out tonight when she drops off the kids. I'm expecting her to ask why I am pulling back. If she asks, I will validate and explain that I've been busy but each parent deserves to have uninterrupted time with the kids when it is their time with them. If she asks why we can't still be friends, I will keep it short and say that I just don't think that's possible right now.

Thoughts?

Your explanation is fine, but it's really not "validating" unless you preface it with something like "I can understand how it would seem that way" or something similar.

Your explanation, while okay, opens you up to an immediate response from her of "Why?" So at some point you're going to have to say something like "Because having an affair and then lying about it, isn't how friends treat each other. But I'll always be courteous and civil."


Starsky

[mahhhty]

I totally agree with this 100%. "So at some point you're going to have to say something like "Because having an affair and then lying about it, isn't how friends treat each other. But I'll always be courteous and civil."

At some point you will have to say that out loud. Of course the way you state it will have a profound impact on whether it sticks or not. I believe that stating it like you are over it and not like you are lashing out, is very important.

Sounds like you have a wonderful weekend planned. Good luck and have fun!

[Defacto]

Starsky/Mahhhty,
I agree and I need not be afraid of the confrontation. My hunch is that it will take place tonight. And I will be ready for it. I will be calm and easygoing like all of our interactions. And I'm definitely looking forward to the weekend with the kiddos.

In regards to the validation piece, I think it could go something like this:
W: I don't understand why we just can't be friends.
Me: Yeah, I understand why it's tough. We were best friends for almost 11 years. I just can't be friends with you right now.
W: But why?
Me: Honestly? Because friends don't have an affair and lie about it. But I promise to be courteous and civil.

[mahhhty]

Good! Be prepared!

I would just caution you to not give her any ammunition. Your projected responses sound a little combative and possible to get in a back and forth conversation.

Obviously, you know yourself best, but for me I have a scripted response already (my X didn't have an A that I know of, but if I ever learned of one, this would be my response)

W: I don't understand why we just can't be friends.
Me: I understand that you would like to be friends. I will continue to show you the respect & civility you deserve as the Mother of our wonderful children. At this time, I can not give you what you want, because of the lying and cheating, which disrespected our children, our family, our relationship and me.

[Defacto]

Thanks Mahhhty,
I think you're right. I will continue to tweak it and practice saying it LOL. However, I do think once I mention the A, it's inevitable that STBX will get defensive.

STBX did send a flurry of D motivated financial texts this morning (send me latest copies of accounts, copy of deed to house). She also called but I didn't answer it.
I waited 15 minutes and replied with "Sure, no problem."

Mind reading, but it seems like my new stance may have renewed her intent for D. She hadn't mentioned anything about it for a couple of weeks. Either way, I needed to set these boundaries moving forward, regardless of the outcome.

[Starsky309]

Mind reading, but it seems like my new stance may have renewed her intent for D. She hadn't mentioned anything about it for a couple of weeks. Either way, I needed to set these boundaries moving forward, regardless of the outcome.

Yes, you're mindreading. She could be bluffing, or she may have had all these things in the works anyway, who knows. The bottom line is (and you immediately recognized it yourself) either you could have lived with this (open marriage, deceit, disrespect) or you couldn't. It either violated your core boundaries of personal integrity, or it didn't. So you really had nothing to lose to taking a strong stance, because her continued infidelity isn't something you could have abided anyway.


Starsky

[Defacto]

STBX just dropped off kids. It felt so good to see the kids! I must have been smiling a mile wide. STBX dressed D4 in the outfit I bought her on purpose. That made me feel good.

I was expecting a drive way drop but she asked if she come inside to get her mail. STBX brought back some of my vintage concert tshirts she used to wear at night. No big deal. We made small talk about the kids and then STBX began to say her goodbyes. She gave all the kids a kiss and then walked over to give me a hug. After a few moments, I let go and she walked toward the door. We said our goodbyes but I didn't wish her a good night. STBX said she would see me Monday morning. I then turned around towards the kids and she let herself out. A few moments later, I turned around and STBX was waving at me through the sliding glass door.

Not at all how I expected it to go. STBX didn't bring up anything so I just went with the flow. I was friendly and relaxed but really excited to see the kids. Very much like every other kid exchange.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to my big weekend with the kiddos. Hopefully STBX will leave us alone.

[Bob723]

Hi Defacto,

I wish I could've seen that smile! I’ve been extremely busy and haven’t been on the DB Forum much at all for a few days.

What’s new with you? Any GAL activities planned for the weekend with the kids?

Take care!

Bob

[Defacto]

Hi Bob,
Thanks for checking in. Nothing major in my sitch. Just trying to pull back some more and set some boundaries.

As far as this weekend is concerned, the kids have some great things planned. We already grilled and chowed down on a giant steak. Tonight, D4 and I will have a sleep over, watch a movie, make popcorn, etc. Saturday afternoon, the kids and I will be at a birthday party. I'm also thinking about taking the kids to the zoo on Sunday morning. I'm also considering a trip to the local children's museum. We should have a blast!

[Bob723]

Hi Defacto,

You're most welcome. Wow, sounds like a good time?

May I join you?? LOL

Have a BLAST!

Bob

[mahhhty]

Sounds like fun. Enjoy!

[Defacto]

Just a quick update and then out for the day.

STBX didn't call last night from work like she usually does. I thought to myself, maybe she's finally getting it. D4 and I had a fun night watching a movie, eating treats, and snuggling. I woke up this morning feeling good about the day. Then, STBX calls. I let it ring. 45 minutes later, she calls again. I let it ring. She follows up the calls with a text saying she just wanted to say hi to D4. I don't respond to this either.

I'm sure she will continue to text and call throughout the day. I don't plan to answer or respond. The problem is every time she calls or texts I get a pit in my stomach. Ugh.

STBX needs to realize that my time with the kids is sacred and she needs to respect that. I'm not going to be taking calls from her the next 18 years just to say hi to the kids.

[Defacto]

Oh yeah, I wanted to share a funny, yet heartbreaking thing my D4 said last night as we were snuggling. She said, "Daddy, you need a wife. When are you getting a new wife?" I wasn't exactly sure how to respond, so I laughed and said, "I don't know."

D4 is a smart cookie. She's very perceptive and who knows what STBX is telling her. Unfortunately, I'm starting to get used to these little comments from D4. I probably need to start reading up on how to help D4 with this transition.

[Defacto]

Oh Geez. STBX called 6 more times and texted me threatening to call the police. I felt, at this point, I needed to answer a call to make sure she understood my stance.

So I called STBX back. She told me she had driven by my house and was flipping out about the kids. I remained calm and told her the kids were fine. They were with their father. I talked about how our time with the kids is sacred. Now that the time is split, it's even more sacred. I said I miss the kids a bunch, but out of respect to her, I don't want to interrupt her time with the kids. I mentioned that she doesn't need to check on the kids every morning.

She said that its my choice to not talk with the kids when she has them. She said that the kids want to talk with me when she has them and she assumed the reverse was true. She said that the kids need to talk with their father. I responded by saying that there are no winners in this situation.

STBX then threatened me that if I continue to "use the kids as a weapon," I will have even less time with them from a custody standpoint.

She said that this was just me doing more of the same. That I did this all of our MR. STBX said that we were not good together and she wasn't happy for a very long time. I just listened and validated where applicable.

I restated my initial point and moved toward ending the call by saying I would see her on Monday morning.

I obviously didn't want to get into this conversation but it was inevitable and I felt the sooner the better.

I could really use some advice from some vets who have been in this sitch with young kids. It don't think it will go away if I ignore it. How did you handle the other parent's request to check in on the kids during your time with the kids?

[claire7]

Defacto,

I want to say this with compassion: I believe strongly that parents should be able to speak to their kids-- particularly young kids -- during the other parent's time.

I know you are hurt and angry, and that you think she should "suffer" the consequences of her decision, which includes losing time with her children. But I urge you to do what is in the best interest of your children-- which is to allow them to speak to their mother, even though it was not your choice to put them in this situation. This is already tough on them-- don't make it worse.

What kind of relationship do you want to have with the mother of your children going forward? What do you want to model for them? How would you answer them if they were old enough to ask, "Why didn't you let me talk to mommy when she called?"

Dig deep on this, and ask yourself why you made that choice--and whether you can choose a different path.

You can set a reasonable boundary-- once per day, perhaps, and even a time frame, so that you are not getting calls all the time, but I think it's very important that kids as young as yours have regular, if not daily, contact with both parents.

If my H did what you did (not responding to calls and texts asking me to speak to my child), I would probably have been just as upset.

[Defacto]

Claire,
Thanks so much for your response. This is certainly new terrain for me so your perspective is highly valued.

I admit that I crossed into this territory with guns blazing. I fully expected STBX to ask about it last night. I knew this component would be problematic with regards to the kids.

My priorities are what is best for the kids and what is best for me, all while attempting to be respectful to their mother. My main goal was to establish a boundary that allowed me to detach. However, I admit I also felt it was important for STBX to fully visualize the future of a likely D, a reality of extended time away from her children.

But, I feel a compromise can be made, while still establishing a boundary to achieve both my goals.
I think it is reasonable and important for the other parent to speak with the children nightly.

The proposed plan: the other parent can send a text between 6-8pm and then the children will call to speak with the other parent.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[Defacto]

I am thinking about sending this TM to STBX later today.

"I had some time to think about our conversation and I understand why you were upset this morning. I agree with you that the kids need to talk with their parents. I also think it's important to respect each parent's time with the children.

So, how does this sound?
Each night between 6 and 8pm, the other parent sends a text to speak with the kids. If available, the kids will call the other parent back.

I think this adds some much needed structure for everyone."

Good idea?

[Bob723]

Oh yeah, I wanted to share a funny, yet heartbreaking thing my D4 said last night as we were snuggling. She said, "Daddy, you need a wife. When are you getting a new wife?" I wasn't exactly sure how to respond, so I laughed and said, "I don't know."

Hi Defacto,

That is funny and heartbreaking at the same time. Wow, she is one smart cookie!! I think you handled it perfectly. I also think you have a good idea about getting your hands on some material that can help you help your D4 thru this.

I saw your most recent post about your text idea. I am going to wait for one of the bets to reply. Calling Toots, Wonka, MrBond....

Hang in there mister.

Bob

[claire7]

She said that this was just me doing more of the same. That I did this all of our MR. STBX said that we were not good together and she wasn't happy for a very long time. I just listened and validated where applicable.

What did she mean by "more of the same"?

I know you are trying to set boundaries and don't want to be friends... but try to work on being "friendly", sort of how you would treat a co-worker you have to work with but have no interest in having a friendship with.

[Defacto]

She said that this was just me doing more of the same. That I did this all of our MR. STBX said that we were not good together and she wasn't happy for a very long time. I just listened and validated where applicable.

What did she mean by "more of the same"?

I know you are trying to set boundaries and don't want to be friends... but try to work on being "friendly", sort of how you would treat a co-worker you have to work with but have no interest in having a friendship with.

Hi Claire,
Mind reading here but I think she was referring to me being controlling. This has been an accusation of hers since BD and a go to whenever she is angry with me. Plus, the context makes sense.

I feel I have been friendly towards STBX. Some here even felt I have been too friendly.

What are your thoughts on the proposed text?

[Bob723]

Defacto,

I'm glad Claire replied and I know your last post was directed at her.

Question for you sir: Is this part of your proposed text:

"I think this adds some much needed structure for everyone."

Or was that a comment to us? If it is part of your draft text, I would remove that line completely. Sadly, Our WAS' don't care much about what we think now. Also, she feels you are "controlling" (my wife says I "smothered" her) and I feel that line, as well-meant as it is, could be interpreted by her as you trying to "control" the sitch. See what I mean? What do other's think?

If it was only meant for us, I'm sorry Defacto. I rambled on for nothing about that sentence.

Good luck!

Bob

[Defacto]

Defacto,

I'm glad Claire replied and I know your last post was directed at her.

Question for you sir: Is this part of your proposed text:

"I think this adds some much needed structure for everyone."

Or was that a comment to us? If it is part of your draft text, I would remove that line completely. Sadly, Our WAS' don't care much about what we think now. Also, she feels you are "controlling" (my wife says I "smothered" her) and I feel that line, as well-meant as it is, could be interpreted by her as you trying to "control" the sitch. See what I mean? What do other's think?

If it was only meant for us, I'm sorry Defacto. I rambled on for nothing about that sentence.

Good luck!

Bob

Bob,
Thanks for the perspective! Nope, that was included in the proposed text. You're right of course. I will remove it.
Thanks!

[Bob723]

Defacto,

You're welcome! Yes, I think it's best that is not part of the text.

Do you have the Validation Cheat Sheet? Stick mostly to validating her feelings where appropriate.

I'm still not certain about the rest. Any vets out there today? Calling all vets for Defacto, please...

Bob

[Fogg]

Oh yeah, I wanted to share a funny, yet heartbreaking thing my D4 said last night as we were snuggling. She said, "Daddy, you need a wife. When are you getting a new wife?" I wasn't exactly sure how to respond, so I laughed and said, "I don't know."

My own D4 has said something very similar, I posted it on someones thread before, cant remember who it was.

"It's OK daddy, you will find a new mommy that loves you".

Hard to accept our kids, at the age of only 4, can understand whats happening to some degree.

[Sotto]

Hi Defacto, I'm not a vet for sure....but I do like editing

"Hi W, I understand why you were upset this morning, and I agree the kids need to talk with each of us. I also think it's important to respect each of our time with them.

Can I suggest that evening may be a good time for a chat with them? If you text say between 6 and 8, I'll have them call & say Hi - and perhaps I could do the same when they are with you?

[claire7]

^^^ this sounds much better.

[Bob723]

^^^ this sounds much better.

Defacto,

I second Claire's opinion. Toots is spot on!

Bob

[Defacto]

Hi Defacto, I'm not a vet for sure....but I do like editing

"Hi W, I understand why you were upset this morning, and I agree the kids need to talk with each of us. I also think it's important to respect each of our time with them.

Can I suggest that evening may be a good time for a chat with them? If you text say between 6 and 8, I'll have them call & say Hi - and perhaps I could do the same when they are with you?

Toots,
You are a national treasure! This is the second time you've come to my rescue. I think this is the one. It's so much better now.

[Bob723]

Toots,
You are a national treasure! This is the second time you've come to my rescue. I think this is the one. It's so much better now.

Defacto, no truer words have ever been spoken! A national treasure, indeed.

I can't even tell you the number of times Toots has helped me with messages.

Toots, we all love and care about you so much. {{{Toots}}}

Bob

[Sotto]

Thanks Guys - glad to be of service!!

[Bob723]

You're welcome - and we THANK YOU!

{{{{{Toots}}}}}

[Defacto]

The text exchange with STBX that just happened.

W: Just woke up. Hope you and the kids are well.

Me: Thanks. We are great.
Me: I understand why you were upset this morning, and I agree the kids need to talk with each of us. I also think it's important to respect each of our time with them.
Me: Can I suggest that evening may be a good time for a chat with them? If you text say between 6 and 8, I'll have them call & say Hi - and perhaps I could do the same when they are with you?

W: Thanks for understanding.
W: Absolutely. They want to say goodnight to you too.
W: It's not fair for them to be weapons. You can hate me all you want but it's not fair to them.
W: (I don't hate you by the way at all. I still have so much love for you so it hurts more than you can imagine.)

Me: Thanks. I appreciate it.

Seems to have gone ok. Wasn't exactly sure how to respond at the end so I kept it simple.
Feels good to get that done. We'll see how that goes.

[Bob723]

Defacto,

Using the KISS method is always the way to go.

I think you did a fine job.

Woo Hoo!

Bob

[Matt777]

There was definitely going to be some blowback by limiting contact. Think you handled it all well today. Hope tomorrow goes well too.

[Defacto]

Bob and Matt,
Thanks for the encouragement, guys. Kind of a busy but fun day with the kids. Obviously, a little stressful with my sitch but I'm pleased with the end result.

STBX texted me to talk with kids just before 8pm. S1 was already asleep and D4 was almost sleeping. I decided to wake up D4 and call STBX. I put D4 immediately on speakerphone. They talked for a minute and I translated when she couldn't understand D4. At the end of the call, STBX sincerely thanked me for letting her talk to D4. And then we said goodbye.

I think this system will work great. I won't have to worry about communicating with STBX all day when I'm with the kids so I can just enjoy my time with them. This will allow me to detach and at the same time really savor the moment with my beautiful children. Win win.

[Matt777]

So far, my W and I have been good (I guess?) about really leaving each other alone to parent. It came up during MC the other day, and we both felt like for now it is best to give the other person space to parent without feeling like we NEEDED to talk with the kids on the off days. We both think that eventually we may get there (especially if we switch off weeks or something).

I truly can't imagine having more than daily conversations with W/Ds at this point. I think it's better for you this way.

[Defacto]

Thanks Matt. I hope you're right.

Journaling:
Feeling hopeful with the new STBX contact boundaries set. Should be another great day with the kiddos. D4 is super excited for the children's museum. Her enthusiasm is contagious!

Last night, STBX texted:
"Can you please be nice?"
I didn't reply.
Then, this morning she texted:
"Good morning. How are the kids?"
When I didn't immediately respond, she called. I didn't answer.

I contemplated my response. I thought about Starsky and T0's advice to adopt a detachment mindset. In doing so, the right reaction will be apparent. Then, I thought about Claire's advice about a mother's need to check on her young children.

I think this comes down to a discussion about the letter of the boundary versus the spirit of the boundary. I could approach it as no contact means no contact, while opening myself up to another argument and anger. OR I could simply satisfy a mother's basic need, still keep the boundary intact, and set myself up for no contact the rest of the afternoon. That's a lot of explanation to say that I replied to STBX's TM.

Me: They're great
W: Good. Have fun with them and let them know I said hello.
W: Saw this and was reminded of you and D4 (STBX sent link to a local wildlife refuge)

A lot of thinking to try not to overthink it. Haha. Such is life as a LBS on the DB journey!

Have a great Sunday everybody.

[Sotto]

Hi Defacto, I'm glad things seemed to go well with your message to W last night and her subsequent call.

I think it's all about balance - at one end of the spectrum we have W calling/texting 10+ times a day, which could be really intrusive. At the other end we have an H being a real @ss about access to the kids when they are with him. Neither of those is great for anyone, but there's healthy middle ground and I think the plan of a call a day if asked for is a good one.

As for anything further than that - like this morning. Well IMHO it's fine, and your minimal response was probably all that was needed. If you hadn't responded at all, the messages may have kept on coming...

Nice that D4 is so excited - bless her! Hope you have a great time at the museum.

[GH31]

Last night, STBX texted:
"Can you please be nice?"
I didn't reply.

Excellent.

Then, this morning she texted:
"Good morning. How are the kids?"
When I didn't immediately respond, she called. I didn't answer.

EXCELLENT!!

Then, I thought about Claire's advice about a mother's need to check on her young children.

Claire is right about this need .... and your WW should have thought about this before she decided to go and torpedo her family by getting involved with an OM.

Not being able to "check" on her children as and when she pleases is a normal and natural outcome of choosing adultery.

I think this comes down to a discussion about the letter of the boundary versus the spirit of the boundary.

Rubbish.

A boundary is a boundary. You would be upset if your neighbour decided to reverse his truck all over your lovely flowerbeds, would you not?

I could approach it as no contact means no contact, while opening myself up to another argument and anger.

Yes, "no contact" means no contact. Otherwise it wouldn't be called "no contact".

OR I could simply satisfy a mother's basic need, still keep the boundary intact, and set myself up for no contact the rest of the afternoon.

Let her feel the heat of her decisions. It'll take her a while to realise her discomfort has come from her own choices but it really is essential.

That's a lot of explanation to say that I replied to STBX's TM.

Yep.

Me: They're great
W: Good. Have fun with them and let them know I said hello.
W: Saw this and was reminded of you and D4 (STBX sent link to a local wildlife refuge)

If you really, absolutely had to respond then this was OK. But I wouldn't have done. I took an insane amount of abuse from my Mrs. in 2008/2009 with an OM, financial recklessness and venom gushing from her mouth as if she were a smashed-up fire hydrant. There were weeks when I went "no contact" and she hated it but it was very, very necessary.

I think you have a good grasp of this stuff, Defacto.

GH31

[Defacto]

Toots & GH,
Thanks so much for your feedback. I would be lost at sea without everyone checking in and offering such valuable advice!

Journaling;
The kids and I had such an amazing day! The children's museum was so much fun. D4 and S1 loved every minute of it. I did too and we'll definitely go back.

STBX didn't text or call until just after 8pm. She spoke with D4 on speakerphone for a minute or so. I did very little talking. I only acted as a translator and I answered a few questions when STBX asked what we did today. We said our goodbyes a few moments later.

Obviously, the conversations with STBX are limited now. I'd be lying if I said I didn't miss the small talk calls we used to have a week ago. It's tough not having one of your best friends to talk to. However, I don't miss the worrying and anxiety that comes with STBX's intermittent phone calls and TMs. Also, I can feel that the limited interaction is helping me to detach.

Anyway, a wonderful day and a great weekend with the kids. After tonight, I have three nights to myself. Nothing set in stone yet, but I should have some GAL plans each night.

[mahhhty]

Obviously, the conversations with STBX are limited now. I'd be lying if I said I didn't miss the small talk calls we used to have a week ago. It's tough not having one of your best friends to talk to. However, I don't miss the worrying and anxiety that comes with STBX's intermittent phone calls and TMs. Also, I can feel that the limited interaction is helping me to detach.

That's how it worked for me to. The transition is pretty remarkable.

[Defacto]

STBX came over early this morning to pick up the kids. She wasn't in her scrubs so she didn't work last night.
She sat down right next to me on the couch and leaned into me. Later, she put her head on my shoulder and put her arm through my elbow. I let her do this but didn't reciprocate. She also mentioned that she liked my work outfit and that I looked good.

She was early and D4 was still sleeping, so we had a friendly chat about my weekend with the kids. I was friendly and engaged. A couple of times, STBX would start to tell a story and say something like "this made me think of you." We caught each other's glances a few times and held it. There was another time that I knew she turned to look at me but I just kept looking straight. Also, she finished up telling a story from work and said "thanks for listening." Of course, I validated and made eye contact throughout.

After a bit, I told her that I had to finish getting ready and I went upstairs. Then, I woke up D4 and I carried her downstairs. In a few minutes, we all exited my house together.

As I finished loading up the kids, I stood and put my hands in my pockets. STBX asked, "Can I have a hug?" I leaned in to give her a hug and she held me tight. After a few moments, I began to release from the embrace. I wished her a good time with the kids. As I was getting into my car, she waved and blew me a kiss and STBX stopped me as I was getting ready to drive away because D4 wanted to say goodbye or blow me a kiss too. Then, STBX gave me one final wave. I smiled and returned the wave.

Anyway, not reading too much into this, but obviously, it feels good to have a positive interaction with STBX.
Seems like a lot of temp checking on her part after limiting contact over the weekend. I tried hard to be effortless and friendly in my interaction with her. I certainly didn't want to come off as cold and disinterested, especially because our interactions are fewer now. However, I did have T0's comment in the back of my mind about a WW having a feel for when the LBS is still attached. Honestly, I'm not sure how to accomplish this without being curt, definitely something I can continue to improve upon.

[Ripken8]

Toots & GH,
Obviously, the conversations with STBX are limited now. I'd be lying if I said I didn't miss the small talk calls we used to have a week ago. It's tough not having one of your best friends to talk to. However, I don't miss the worrying and anxiety that comes with STBX's intermittent phone calls and TMs. Also, I can feel that the limited interaction is helping me to detach.

Completely understand, Defacto - that's where I am. My ww have limited to no conversations while the other has the boys. It's nice to have that privacy and be able to truly just be with them. However, there are songs, places I drive by, shows, new stories, etc that hit me and I think "man I can't wait to tell ww about this" and then I stop myself.

It feels like a piece of me I want to release and share, without a place to go. The more it goes on, the more I will continue to find outlets within myself or others than just her. I'm sure you will to!

Glad to hear you had a good weekend!

[Zues126]

I did have T0's comment in the back of my mind about a WW having a feel for when the LBS is still attached. Honestly, I'm not sure how to accomplish this without being curt, definitely something I can continue to improve upon.

The only way is to truly become detached.

After you go down a path of spending months monitoring her reactions to your behavior, pining, demonstrating changes, and seeing her 'warm up'...only to realize you are being played the fool repeatedly be a kid in an adult's body trying to keep everyone on her side so she can avoid consequences and keep her options open...you will grow tired of it all.

I'd encourage you to find and read my first threads. If not from the very beginning maybe from 8/1 to 9/5. This covered the same time period for me (months 2-3 after BD) and it shows how she 'warmed up'. It also shows the outcome. Let's just say by October I was much more detached.

[T384]

The only way is to truly become detached.

After you go down a path of spending months monitoring her reactions to your behavior, pining, demonstrating changes, and seeing her 'warm up'...only to realize you are being played the fool repeatedly be a kid in an adult's body trying to keep everyone on her side so she can avoid consequences and keep her options open...you will grow tired of it all.

This!

Just because she is doing these things .. It means nothing! It's okay to notice but don't take more than 0.0001 seconds to even think about it because until she says she's willing to do anything to work on your M it really is just that - her seeing if you're still hanging on.

I'll go blue in the face repeating myself - she needs to feel what it's like to lose you. I personally think you were too receptive to her in this interaction. Aren't you busy? Don't you have a lot going on? You don't have time to keep validating her all the time. You're on the go if she starts talking about herself and trying to be friendly you can still politely excuse yourself .. Hey I'd love to talk but I really have to run. We can catch up another time. And NO there doesn't have to be another time --- but isn't that how you would treat a neighbor? Friendly but busy

And the hugging is difficult .. I mean I don't think you should be hugging her. Maybe next time get right in the car so you can say bye to her from the car and won't be in that situation again.

Remember strong and confident? The guy that is independent and won't put up with her crap but is polite and has a smile on his face ... That's you

[RAI]

the hugs: I am concerned she is beginning to treat you like her gay friend. Someone on whom to lean. At best, she is temp checking, making sure you will remain plan B. May feel good for you in the short term. Probably does not make you more attractive (as a husband) in the long run. She is cheating on you. Why are you hugging her???? You are not going to nice her back. I have heard this so many times - as recently as a couple of days ago. You need to detach.

RAI

P.S. I am amazed every time at how bad I am at taking my own advice, BTW

[Defacto]

Gang, I don't know where I would be without all the support and feedback. I appreciate all of you for taking the time to check in and take interest in my sitch. Zues, I will read up on your archived threats later today. T0, you have been so instrumental in my development. RAI, like you, I often don't take my own advice. And, I agree with all of you that I am not detached yet. Good stuff, forcing me to continue to self-evaluate.

However, I also don't think that one just wakes up one morning and is completely detached. Like everything, it's a journey and I feel I'm taking baby steps towards that goal. I took a baby step this weekend with setting some boundaries about contact and the children arrangement. Seeing as my phone contact with STBX is now limited, with everyone's help, I now need to fine-tune my approach during our physical interactions.

In regards to the hugs/head on shoulder stuff, I know I can strategically do things to prevent this from happening (sitting in love seat vs. couch, walking away from car after putting kids in car seats), but if I am not initiating it and not encouraging it, why should I be so afraid of it? Trust me, I see the value of limiting physical contact but I don't want to get to the point where I'm like 6 year old who squirms and says "Eww!" any time a female classmate comes near. I know this is overstating it a bit LOL.

[Matt777]

I don't think its the running away that's the problem. It's that it makes you feel good. You see a hug or a lean or whatever as "a sign" or "progress". But she's manipulating you into thinking there's some change of heart possible. You are providing that comfort and security to her, and she's making you think there might be something there. But it's all for show.

How is a hug different from the morning talks you just stopped?

[Defacto]

Matt,
Intellectually, I know the physical contact means nothing. Emotionally, sure it's nice but I don't think it triggers any internal downward spiral. I certainly don't want her to feel comforted by me right now.

And, I agree that her initiated physical contact is similar to the recent enacted boundary. However, it's not one that's as easy to control like simply ignoring a phone call. Inevitably, it will happen again and I'm sure I may be in a situation where I am unable to avoid it. I just don't think it's a deal breaker. Yet, I can do better to avoid the situation. And admittedly, in the past, I might have lingered a bit to see if she would initiate the hug, etc.

[T384]

She's testing you. You placed a boundary and limited contact. Then she today is feeling the waters.

You still listened, you still hugged her and she got her way.

Back to square one.

[RAI]

However, I also don't think that one just wakes up one morning and is completely detached. Like everything, it's a journey and I feel I'm taking baby steps towards that goal.

I am going to challenge you here, as others like Mozza and Caliguy have challenged me. I hope you appreciate it as I have.

I agree that detaching is hard, but is it a journey? Really? If you are partially detached, are you detached at all? Is there such a thing as being partially pregnant? Some days I am detached, and others I am not. There is no in-between. detaching is an act. Accepting that you are detached, or being comfortable with being detached, or becoming good/consistent at detaching, that is a journey. You may think I am splitting hairs, but by calling your detachment a journey, something to ease into, I think you are rationalizing your inability to detach. Ask yourself: By permitting yourself to take it slower, are you not sabotaging your efforts at detaching, thereby hindering the process?

Ultimately, you can do whatever you choose. You don't have to detach if you don't want to or don't think it will help, but don't kid yourself and say you are detaching if you are not.

Just some food for thought. now think!

Stay strong, friend.

RAI

[Defacto]

Thanks for the feedback, T0!

Back to square one.

Really? That seems a little deterministic. If STBX is still in a fog, we are giving her a ton of credit, like she has a process akin to our DB and is keeping wayward tally marks or something.

She might have gotten her emotional tank filled a bit this morning but that shouldn't last too long. I think I just need to regroup, continue to enforce the new boundaries, GAL, consciously detach, and ensure I am better prepared to handle my next physical interaction with STBX on Thursday evening. Easier said than done, I know. Fortunately, I know you guys will assist me along the way!

[Starsky309]

She's testing you. You placed a boundary and limited contact. Then she today is feeling the waters.

You still listened, you still hugged her and she got her way.

Back to square one.

This ^.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

If STBX is still in a fog, we are giving her a ton of credit, like she has a process akin to our DB and is keeping wayward tally marks or something.

How much keen strategy does one need to follow the basic laws of human attraction? She cheats on you, you pull back and establish your boundary, and she seeks to reattract you in order to get back the power equilibrium. It's basic "push-pull" dynamics, and she doesn't need a degree in quantum physics to play it.


Starsky

[Defacto]

However, I also don't think that one just wakes up one morning and is completely detached. Like everything, it's a journey and I feel I'm taking baby steps towards that goal.

I am going to challenge you here, as others like Mozza and Caliguy have challenged me. I hope you appreciate it as I have.

I agree that detaching is hard, but is it a journey? Really? If you are partially detached, are you detached at all? Is there such a thing as being partially pregnant? Some days I am detached, and others I am not. There is no in-between. detaching is an act. Accepting that you are detached, or being comfortable with being detached, or becoming good/consistent at detaching, that is a journey. You may think I am splitting hairs, but by calling your detachment a journey, something to ease into, I think you are rationalizing your inability to detach. Ask yourself: By permitting yourself to take it slower, are you not sabotaging your efforts at detaching, thereby hindering the process?

Ultimately, you can do whatever you choose. You don't have to detach if you don't want to or don't think it will help, but don't kid yourself and say you are detaching if you are not.

Just some food for thought. now think!

Stay strong, friend.

RAI

RAI,
Thanks again for the attention to my sitch. I live for theoretical discussions, especially those in which I have no qualifications to engage in LOL.

I don't think you can compare the physical, like being pregnant, with the psychological, like detachment. I believe it is possible to be on a journey to detachment, same as one can journey from adolescence into adulthood.

Nonetheless, I think you bring up a solid point in which can all utilize to self evaluate. Thanks! If we catch ourselves in a behavior that shows non-detachment (like my interaction with STBX this morning), we need to check ourselves and question, re-evaluate, and correct our level of detachment.

[Defacto]

If STBX is still in a fog, we are giving her a ton of credit, like she has a process akin to our DB and is keeping wayward tally marks or something.

How much keen strategy does one need to follow the basic laws of human attraction? She cheats on you, you pull back and establish your boundary, and she seeks to reattract you in order to get back the power equilibrium. It's basic "push-pull" dynamics, and she doesn't need a degree in quantum physics to play it.


Starsky

Totally agree. I appreciate your feedback!

Moral of the story is I should have handled it better this morning. I swear I'm not missing the point!
I will learn from the mistakes and put myself in a better position to succeed on Thursday night. I will use these next couple of nights to refocus.

[Ripken8]

Defacto - I think you're doing a great job. It's easy to know these things on the boards, but when you're in the situation and it's real life, hard to constantly and consistently act on them.

Don't beat yourself up too much. You've come a long way and I'm sure THURS will go well!

[Georgia Bulldogs]

I think you did well this morning.

I'm a little torn on the direction of this thread. On the one hand, IF you end up divorce, the sooner you detach emotionally and start rebuilding your own life separate from her the better. On the other hand, IF your goal is to try to save your marriage (with a willingness to accept that you can't MAKE her reconcile and it may be a little more hurtful to you to continue trying but at least you'll have carry on KNOWING you did everything you could to try) then being over detached can become a problem too (like I said before your wife MAY just divorce you thinking it's what you want, what you deserve, what she deserves, that she's unforgivable, that you don't care, that you never cared, etc).

I'll go blue in the face repeating myself - she needs to feel what it's like to lose you.

Respectfully, IMO, I don't see this as a requirement of divorce busting or recovery from infidelity.

While an affair continues, losing you isn't her biggest concern (she's got a lawyer and is maybe filing on you here any day). Her affair is her number one priority much like an alcoholic's or drug addict's relationship with their drug of choice ~~ IT is their number one priority. Once the affair ends and you become the only option available sometimes pulling back and making them fear not only losing their affair relationship but you as well can "wake them up" so to speak, but even then, it's not a requirement to recovery. It's just a bit of a wake up call. Waywards typically lack empathy while having an affair and continue with that inability for awhile afterwards. "Feelings" aren't their strong suit. Losing you isn't the concern...it becomes more about losing what you [still] do for her that is the concern. For some women that is a bigger issue. The more strings a husband has the better that kind of passive aggressive strategy MIGHT work as a wake up call. Here, defacto's wife has her own well paying job with good benefits and a cushy place to live with her parents inclusive of built in babysitters. She's NOT romantically in love with Defacto right now so pushing her away completely could have the effect of her simply saying and thinking "meh". She may not like losing her friend, defacto and may not like the guilt she feels when he "punishes" her but that's about the extent of it.

I also don't think she's feeling you out to see if you are still attached to her. She may not be romantically in love with you right now but she's still connected to you and dancing with you (distancing - pursuer) because she is compelled to. You are still meeting some of her needs and you have been all along. So she's more or less cake eating and trying to keep you around meeting those needs either because her affair is over (for the most part but they still work together) or it's on the rocks or it's got no future but either way she's still deciding what she wants to do. Waywards (like addicts) can't decide what they want to do so they just do what ever pleases them at the moment and to heck with responsibilities or anyone else's feelings. One day she's set on divorcing you the next it's asking for hugs. One day she's lecturing you for making things mean and then two hours later texting you that "I hope you realize that I still love you". It's not an "attachment" test...it's more of a "I want my needs met by Defacto today" kind of thing. If you fall for it too hard and then overly pursue her, then she'll merely renew "distancing" herself again not because she tested your attachment and sees you are still there....but because that's what she'll automatically do when you pursue her too hard.

You are also right. You don't have to be "in your face" detaching to her because you can't without being (or appearing to be) a jerk. She gets it. She feels you pulling back and it's even more confusing when you are kind, attractive and smiling with her; yet, when she's not around, you are being distant and detached. Being a jerk only feeds her rationalizations and justifications and certainly isn't attractive behavior. I also don't think being nice to your wife is being her gay boyfriend. Unless you are giving her dating advice about OM and fashion tips you are OK being nice to your wife. She is still your wife. It's also not like you are initiating hugs and pursing her. SHE is pursuing and flirting with you. [now if you wanted to you COULD throw in a few hetero things now and then as you continue the distancing - pursuing dance. Your wife won't likely have sex with you but there are ways to communicate your desire for her sexually without being clingy, desperate and/or needy. Pursing her sexually is part of the dance. A confident man would do this. It might as simple as just letting her catch you giving her a look over or as overt as a simple statement of your desires. Nothing wrong with a man stating what he wants and you don't have to apologize for being a heterosexual that desires his wife.. More on this below]

I can see how the constant phone calls and texts are a drag and trying to "boundary" those is a nice way of protecting yourself from the constant turmoil of having to be on and prepared for the next interaction and then feeling compelled to document, analyze and interpret each and every interaction. Perhaps you could suggest and consider getting your daughter a cell phone of her own that can go back and forth between your houses so each of you can speak to your daughter whenever you like without having to interact with the other. Even suggesting it (but not actually doing it ...she's only 4 so it might be a little crazy to do at this point) makes the point that YOU are detaching and wanting space and distance with the result being her pursuing more. On the other hand, I could see the phone idea backfiring with your wife still constantly talking to D4 while with you which still invades on your space and time (though you'd still control the phone to some extent for a couple years yet - don't even try to take a phone from a 10+ year old).


Moving forward. One thing to consider, IMO, is what is wrong with you (a man) stating exactly what you want in a straight forward non-begging manner? I don't always agree very much with the nmmng stuff, especially what you see on their forums (complete jerks and even wayward husbands using the information to rationalize and justify their [paraphrasing] "finally standing up to their mean abusive sex withholding wives" and doing whatever they want). Basically being to much of a nice guy (as Glover defines it) is a resentment building problem but being a selfish entitled superior man also creates it's own set of relationship and life problems. There is a happy medium and that's one of the most significant and amazing things that marriage is (designed) supposed to teach us. Anyway, those sites do promote a policy that it's OK for a man to ask for what he wants. That's what men are supposed to do. We aren't supposed to passive aggressively demonstrate detachment to our wayward wives hoping they fear losing us and then "wake up", we aren't supposed to grovel at their feet begging for a second chance while they continue dating others (OM) and deciding what they want, and it's certainly not healthy for a betrayed husband to just sit around being nice to them waiting for them to decide what they want. The point is....what you want matters. Feel free to express it. She can do what she wants with the information or do nothing at all but she'll never be able to say she didn't know how you felt. This isn't suggesting a yelling or anger session either. This isn't punishment. You are not her punisher. God will handle her. You are just sharing your feelings.

What are your feelings? Do you want to recover, what are your conditions/boundaries regarding an attempt at recovery, what do you think a divorce will look like (she needs to know now that this friendly relationship is not you trying to make things easy for her and an example of how the relationship will continue to be IF and WHEN she divorces you but rather, it's continued turmoil and devastation each and every day you carry on this act of being OK with the situation while wanting to simultaneously scream "wake up" at her). She needs to know you cherish/cherished her and aren't sure yourself if you can forgive and recover. She needs to know that you are scared about what a divorce will do to your children How seeing them 50% of the time is killing you. How if she divorces you you'll come to resent her for taking away 50% of your time in your children's lives. How you miss your best friend one day and catch yourself so many times wishing she was around to share something with but then hating her the next minute for what she's CONTINUING TO DO to you and your children. Then defining what you want going forward. No more hugs, kisses, texts saying she loves you UNLESS she is willing to back it up with certain and distinct boundary enabling behaviors. Leading you on while intermittently discussing divorce issues is emotionally abusive. She can't expect kindness while everyday you fear being served divorce papers. You're done being nice while she's behaving hurtfully. You know she's still in contact with ____ (insert OM's wife's first name) husband. That (om's wife's first name) told you that OM and her are trying to work things out (use the words from the text message) but that your contact still knows the two of them are talking, flirting and calling each other. Not only are you disappointed she's destroying your family but destroying another family just makes you question whether you even know who she is. Etc. Etc.

I know it's sharing a lot. But it's authentic. It's real. It's not manipulative. It's straightforward manly. Also, once you've clearly stated your feelings, intentions and boundaries...detaching becomes easier. You're real. You're not passive aggressive anymore. She's either got to step up and be real too or not. Her call. No expectations. But, at least, she can't be passive aggressive and manipulative herself by saying stuff like "why are you being mean to me", "why are you punishing me" and "If you don't speak to me I'm going to take more custody from you and you'll get less time with the children". You'll also be able to say refer her to the email/letter saying you know how I feel and I'm only trying to protect myself emotionally from your hurtful words and behavior ~~~~ that this has to do with YOU and your thoughts and feelings. That everything isn't about her.

Maybe you want to put it in an email or letter so you can be more clear and concise saying exactly what you mean. Maybe you are more comfortable expressing it face to face. Some may feel it's more manly to do it face to face but most of us betrayed husband's here ended up here as result of our ingrained conflict avoiding personalities and the email or letter is the easier way to go. Such email/letter can then be followed up with conversations (where you just listen mostly and maintain your distancing - pursuing stance). Plus, a letter/email can be saved by the wayward and even if they don't understand or get it at first, many have come back to such boundary ultimatum letters time and time again a begin a process of understanding if and when they commend on a journey towards repentance.

I'll try to come up with a sample email/letter here in a bit.

[Defacto]

Thanks Rip. I'm taking everything in stride. Plus, I love the discussion. I think it's helpful to talk it through out loud from a therapeutic standpoint.


Zues, RAI, T0, Starsky,
Sorry guys. I was just rereading some of my responses and I realized I came come off as too defensive. I apologize for that. That was not my intended tone. I sincerely appreciate the constructive criticism and I know we all want the same thing for each other.

Keep it coming, that is, if you can still put up with me!

[Matt777]

I don't blame you, buddy. There is nothing I want more than some sort of physical interaction with my wife. I haven't touched her since I kissed her the morning we separated a month and a half ago. I know that right now, it wouldn't be for the right reason and wouldn't be beneficial for me however that contact was made though until she's really ready to start reconsidering things.

Stay strong.

[Defacto]

Wow, GB! Thanks for the response. I always knew you were back there lurking, waiting for the right time to pounce. Thanks so much for your investment in my sitch!

I am going to need some time to reread this post a couple of times.

[T384]

I had a rough road as well and it took me a long time to get it right, if I ever really did.

Anyway, I think you need to deicde what you want. I know it's hard when you get conflicting advice but if you've read from Sandi, who has a lot of insight into the mind of a WAW, you can see why what I'm advising you is important.

Yes it may not save your marriage but it will save your sanity. I do want to be clear that I really do think you need to coparent and get along for the kids. Who knows, if you do D, you may be friends down the road. But is what your W done something you would want in a friend right now?

And I will still stand by my statement - she needs to feel what it's like to not have you in her life. Right now she is cake eating.

Enforce a boundary and stick with it. Limited contact except regarding the children. Stick to what you stated as a boundary and eventually it will come naturally to you both.


As far as my sitch, I decided my Hchose to remove himself as my husband but he was still the boys father. I was going to be friendly and nice for the kids because I was the bigger person. I also wanted to be the person only a fool would leave.

[mahhhty]

Solid post Mr Bulldog. Defacto - you got a lot of info there. Good luck!

[NDY]

GB. Pure gold. I have been struggling with this for quite. While now. The conflicting messages just drive me mad. Thank you for this. I look forward to the sample email.

/derail

[Georgia Bulldogs]

I had a rough road as well and it took me a long time to get it right, if I ever really did.

Anyway, I think you need to deicde what you want. I know it's hard when you get conflicting advice but if you've read from Sandi, who has a lot of insight into the mind of a WAW, you can see why what I'm advising you is important.

Yes it may not save your marriage but it will save your sanity. I do want to be clear that I really do think you need to coparent and get along for the kids. Who knows, if you do D, you may be friends down the road. But is what your W done something you would want in a friend right now?

And I will still stand by my statement - she needs to feel what it's like to not have you in her life. Right now she is cake eating.

Enforce a boundary and stick with it. Limited contact except regarding the children. Stick to what you stated as a boundary and eventually it will come naturally to you both.


As far as my sitch, I decided my Hchose to remove himself as my husband but he was still the boys father. I was going to be friendly and nice for the kids because I was the bigger person. I also wanted to be the person only a fool would leave.

I think this advice is OK for a betrayed wife. She should almost immediately detach completely. A wayward husband should see and feel what it's like to lose their wife. In general, wayward husbands tend to have much stronger feelings for their spouse that they [try to] compartmentalize away as much as they can. When their betrayed wife drops the rope...they DO "feel it". This is in contrast to a wayward wife. Women (generally speaking) have romantic feelings for only one man at a time. It's an survival instinct. It's biological. Give them space and they might miss some of the (friendly) needs being met (and resist it) but they won't truly "feel it". If they are 50-60 years old, without a career and tied up completely financially with their husband they may FEEL threatened in the financially security aspect but they aren't "feeling" the loss of love and relationship. Actually most wayward wives WANT to be left alone. They WANT space and OVERLY detaching just gives them extra rationalizations and justifications to continue doing exactly what they are already doing.

Then there is the thought/concept/idea that women, in general, want to man to lead the relationship and instigate the chase. Women find men that pursue them (in a certain - non-needy way) attractive. Women, let alone a wayward wife, aren't likely to chase their detached and distant betrayed husband's....for long; or, ever.


To each his/her own, but I'm also not a fan of just "getting along for the kids". I think it often sets/models a horrible example that you should ignore and excuse abusive behavior because other people are more important than you. What happens when your children find themselves in an abusive relationship someday themselves? Should they just try to get along or should they fight for THEIR dignity and respect and get out (or, at least...speak up)? Model what you expect. This doesn't mean alienate the wayward spouse. Parallel parenting IS dignified and respectful but it gives the betrayed spouse time to heal and rebuild their lives without constantly having to deal with and interact with their [emotional] abuser. Forgiveness doesn't require reconciliation of a [friendly or any] relationship.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

GB. Pure gold. I have been struggling with this for quite. While now. The conflicting messages just drive me mad. Thank you for this. I look forward to the sample email.

/derail

I know, right?

Some messages say: manipulate her by validating her and listening to her, spend time with her and others say manipulate her by detaching from her because she needs to feel the loss and be punished.

Frankly, you (anyone) can go either way (when trying to manipulate your desired outcome) depending on your personal wants and needs. Either way is being manipulative and there isn't anything inherently evil or wrong with trying to manipulate your wayward spouse into doing the right thing. It may not be healthy for you long term but almost every betrayed spouse does it (even the ones that go ballistic the first night and give ultimatums that work with the inherent thread of violence or coercion). I personally think men should strategically pursue more (doing a dance of pursuit and distancing) and go into the fog and TRY to lead/drag their wife out of it; however, I think it's entirely too much to ask or suggest for a betrayed wife to do the same.

Then again, to some men it may be too much too whereas some women can emotionally put up more of a fight.

All generalizations.

Also...these strategies aren't mutually exclusive. The pursuer - distancing strategy presumes some pursuing AND some detaching.

I also think the posters save their marriage or not. I'm a bit of a fatalist here but many/most betrayed husband's come here to get affirmation and confirmation that the way they are choosing to handle themselves is o.k. They supplement their decisions with our information and reconcile or divorce all on their own. There isn't any magic way for me to tell which way this situation is going to go. I could see them jumping in bed together next weekend (almost every reconciliation story begins with "and we had sex last night") or; she could be filing the divorce papers today and running off to be with OM. Either way, Defacto is better off having this place and our [sometimes conflicting] support because the battlefield he finds himself in is ever changing and uncertain. He can apply my tools one day and someone else's the next. It's all good.

[NDY]

GB. Pure gold. I have been struggling with this for quite. While now. The conflicting messages just drive me mad. Thank you for this. I look forward to the sample email.

/derail

I know, right?

Some messages say: manipulate her by validating her and listening to her, spend time with her and others say manipulate her by detaching from her because she needs to feel the loss and be punished.

Frankly, you (anyone) can go either way (when trying to manipulate your desired outcome) depending on your personal wants and needs. Either way is being manipulative and there isn't anything inherently evil or wrong with trying to manipulate your wayward spouse into doing the right thing. It may not be healthy for you long term but almost every betrayed spouse does it (even the ones that go ballistic the first night and give ultimatums that work with the inherent thread of violence or coercion). I personally think men should strategically pursue more (doing a dance of pursuit and distancing) and go into the fog and TRY to lead/drag their wife out of it; however, I think it's entirely too much to ask or suggest for a betrayed wife to do the same.

Then again, to some men it may be too much too whereas some women can emotionally put up more of a fight.

All generalizations.

Also...these strategies aren't mutually exclusive. The pursuer - distancing strategy presumes some pursuing AND some detaching.

I also think the posters save their marriage or not. I'm a bit of a fatalist here but many/most betrayed husband's come here to get affirmation and confirmation that the way they are choosing to handle themselves is o.k. They supplement their decisions with our information and reconcile or divorce all on their own. There isn't any magic way for me to tell which way this situation is going to go. I could see them jumping in bed together next weekend (almost every reconciliation story begins with "and we had sex last night") or; she could be filing the divorce papers today and running off to be with OM. Either way, Defacto is better off having this place and our [sometimes conflicting] support because the battlefield he finds himself in is ever changing and uncertain. He can apply my tools one day and someone else's the next. It's all good.

Decacto, sorry for the derail.

GB thank you for this message. I knew the distancing thing was, to her at least me coming across as a jerk. I struggled with the concept of rebuilding the attraction on a daily basis. My WW loved me because I was the funny, talkative interesting guy. Now, trying to follow what I've seen on here I just make it worse. She responds better when I'm the 'old me'. Lots of people here talk about self improvement, fixing the things that she didn't like about you. Not just for the M but for yourself. But what about the thing you forgot to be? What about the old you that she fell in love with? Sometimes that person needs to come back. Know what I mean?

So I like the idea of making your feeling be known in a manly way. She has already left. So I want to AT LEAST TRY and intice her back. It doesn't mean there isn't an improved NDY waiting but the old NDY, the one she loved has to come back too.

I'm biting my fingernails for this email. Defacto and i's situations are similar in a lot of ways.

Peace

[T384]

GB

I guess I will have to respectfully disagree on some aspects

As I'm sure you can gather from my posts I am not about being walked all over. When I said get along for the kids I mean be able to exchange the kids pleasantly and hopefully be mature adults. If you've read my previous posts I also said I did not think they should be doing things as a family. That's the repercussion the W or H has to deal with by choosing an A. Others argue to allow the other partner see what they're missing. I guess it could go either way.

At the end of the day we are all adults and hopefully those here can utilize all that's offered here and formulate their own approach. I think it's important for people to realize that there isn't one thing that will make or break the relationship.

Best of luck, D!

[Georgia Bulldogs]

T0234...you'll probably like my proposed letter than. It's the take away after a period of time of spending time with them, meeting their needs and showing them what and who they'd be missing.

Defacto might HAVE conversations relating to information in the proposed letter/email prior to sending it. I think if she actually files for divorce and serves him....he should certainly be sending this letter/email and withholding all contact and interaction with her.

I also worry about Defacto's legal case. His wife has already threatened to take more custody of the kids from him like she's the gatekeeper granting him 50/50 custody. If Defacto's number one priority over and above saving his marriage is making sure should they end up divorced that he maximizes his time with the kids and minimizes the conflict and expense of the divorce process...being and playing nice is likely in his best interest (to the point you take advantage of HER being nice while not giving in yourself at all...just to be nice).

Here's what I wrote (don't you dare use it word for word or someone might find it here and consider it insincere):

Dear wife,

This is a difficult letter for me to write, one that I have been mentally working on for weeks now. I have written this letter with the true love that only a husband can have for a wife. Please read every word I have written, for it is from the heart.

These last few months have been emotionally devastating to me. Despite appearances, I am not some stoic robot devoid of feelings and I was blindsided and crushed by your affair with {x's husband]. That being said, I do apologize to you for any part I played in creating the environment that helped make your affair possible. Perhaps I foolishly over-pursued my goals without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. Perhaps I was not there for you when you needed me the most and we are now both suffering for my mistake. It's really tough for me to pinpoint what I did wrong let alone take responsibility for it at this time but I am sorry none the less.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship with [x's husband] once and for all. Living under these conditions where you text me about loving me, say you are having second thoughts, and asking for hugs while also texting me for information pertinent to filing a divorce petition, threatening to keep my kids from me unless I call you whenever you demand and wondering when and where you are going to drop such petition in my lap has been the most painful experience of my life, and I can no longer endure it. Just the other night DD4 ask me when I was going to find another wife and I had no response or explanation. I STILL have one but I couldn't even tell her that and risk setting her up for further disappointment. I think the mixed signals she must be getting from our interactions lately must be very confusing and hurtful to her as well. She's a bright girl and I already see her picking up on way too much.

As far as OM. I am and will always be the better man. We took vows before God and family and God doesn't make mistakes. You are my best friend and I find myself missing you terribly; however, until your affair ends, and you are willing to follow a plan of reconciliation with me, I need to avoid seeing, texting and/or talking to you so I can regain my dignity and self respect. I won't compete for the love and affections of my own wife against such a miscreant. Our friend, ________, has agreed to act as our intermediary to help us make arrangements and establish and maintain a set schedule with the children that is mutually convenient. It is my understanding there is also online parental scheduling apps that could assists everyone with an easy to use and set online adjustable calender such that we can minimize our necessary interactions to the greatest extent possible. {friend] will also provide a convenient drop off and pick up location so I can avoid the turmoil and pain of running into you at every child exchange. If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, it will have to be through him/her.  I'd request that you only text me directly for any and all TRUE emergencies. I will also agree that we each have the children call other parent at least once per day while they are in our care. I'm sure we can come up with more agreeements in the coming months to make this transition as easy as possible while permitting me the personal space necessary to rebuild my life.

I ask that you respect my decision to disassociate myself from you in this way. This isn't about you. I am not punishing you. This is about my feelings. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship, and I simply cannot be around you any longer knowing that you are still communicating with him and set upon divorcing me and splitting up our family for no justifiable reason. I know only getting 50% of the time with the kids is difficult for you too, but I didn't get a vote and I still don't want that. This divorce, if you pursue it, will be entirely on you and I would view it as YOU punishing me/us for your mistakes that you refuse to apologize and make amends for. I can't and won't sit here any longer while you accuse ME of being mean or punishing you as though my feelings are insignificant. Just know I still love you but I cannot continue to see you under these conditions.

If you desire there currently remains a way out of this mess. As soon as you are willing to permanently end your relationship, follow precautions to avoid absolutely any contact with the other person, and join me in a plan to restore our relationship, I will be wiling to discuss a future together with you.  Hesitantly, I am also maybe willing to discuss a plan whereby we mutually agree not to file for divorce for 6 months while you pursue finding a new job outside of xyz hospital (and away from OM for life), with precautions in place to the extent possible and verifiable that you and OM aren't seeing or speaking to each other any longer where we spend as much time together as a couple and family as possible without too much pressure to fix anything until such time as you leave working with OM and establish true “no contact”. In other words, if we are perhaps going to divorce anyway...let's put it on hold and have one last good FUN summer together, giving us both a chance to understand each other better (since we obviously don't) and just give both of us a chance to figure out our “second thoughts” (yes, I have second thoughts too, some days I want nothing to do with you and others I just miss my best friend) without worrying about when the other shoe is about to drop.

I hope that we will be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We can build a new lifestyle together in which everything we do makes us both happy. I can forgive and I have no intent to hold this over your head. Then there will never be a reason for us to be separated and we can each have 100% custody of our children. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you to be my true best friend and lover again.

That being said, I just don't understand your end game here. Do you think you and some serial cheating doctor are seriously going to end up together? Say you divorce me and he divorces his wife, he'll be single then, what's to stop him from dating a lot less complicated and less burdened (maybe one that's childless and absent an upset suspicious ex husband)? Why would you trust a man that you KNOW is willing to cheat on his wife and children? How would you ever trust such a man at work or around OUR children? I know I wouldn't, God forbid. Accordingly, be advised that If you ultimately divorce me, that we can't and won't remain friends at all. First off, it's a terrible example to the children. It teaches kids that other people matter more than them. That they should suck it up and tolerate abuse instead of distancing themselves from it. I wouldn't want (DD4) staying married or hanging around an emotionally abusive husband just “for the kids”. Besides, in time, I will remarry. I LIKE being married; and, I imagine any 2nd wife I have won't like me hanging around my first wife too much.

I cared for you when we married and I continue to care for you right up to this day. I hope you can turn your life around, do the right thing and correct this colossal mistake you've made but I have learned I cannot make you do anything; and, I cannot be around you or help you as long as you continue your destructive relationship.

With Love and Conviction,
(signed)

A copy of this letter could also be sent to OM with a note saying something like:

I understand you think you've convinced [om's wife first name] that I'm some jealous abusive husband and that she just thinks that you two are working this out and moving on but I know better. I've got lots of friends in this town and my spies are everywhere. I even had someone send me pictures of you two talking intimately at work and documentation that you are now calling my wife from your business/clinic landlines, pictures I'll gladly share with your wife if you don't completely get and stay out of our lives. I love my wife and I am willing to do whatever it takes to make her happy. I am waiting for that chance. (OM's hate hassles and confrontations with the betrayed husbands....this kind of message lets him know that you are going to sit back and keep poking at him forever and make your wife far more hassle than she's worth. The affair was far more fun with it was just sneaking around in the hospital but now you have spies who knows where and you have completely made this no longer fun. He's not near as emotionally invested in your wife as he's lead her to believe or as you are making it clear you are. This also goes against the narrative your wife has likely told him about you from the beginning. He didn't expect you to actually stand up and fight for her. Plus, if and when you recover. Your wife will think you are chivalrous for having stood up to him for her. If you don't recover. Bygones. Who cares what she or OM think at that point. Lastly, use OM's wife first name whenever possible. They will both hate that).

[Starsky309]

GB thank you for this message. I knew the distancing thing was, to her at least me coming across as a jerk. I struggled with the concept of rebuilding the attraction on a daily basis. My WW loved me because I was the funny, talkative interesting guy. Now, trying to follow what I've seen on here I just make it worse. She responds better when I'm the 'old me'. Lots of people here talk about self improvement, fixing the things that she didn't like about you. Not just for the M but for yourself. But what about the thing you forgot to be? What about the old you that she fell in love with? Sometimes that person needs to come back. Know what I mean?

So I like the idea of making your feeling be known in a manly way. She has already left. So I want to AT LEAST TRY and intice her back. It doesn't mean there isn't an improved NDY waiting but the old NDY, the one she loved has to come back too.

Peace

I have no problem with this in THEORY, if someone is skilled (and self-assured) enough to thread that needle. In my experience, very, VERY few men can and so my advice is usually to get them to learn to lay and enforce strong boundaries (while remaining civil), and get them the hell AWAY from the simpering pursuit and supplication that we see way too often on this forum.

Heck, very few emotionally HEALTHY males can pull off what ol' Georgia Bulldog describes above; how many just-bombed and WOUNDED men can?


Starsky

[NDY]

Q

GB thank you for this message. I knew the distancing thing was, to her at least me coming across as a jerk. I struggled with the concept of rebuilding the attraction on a daily basis. My WW loved me because I was the funny, talkative interesting guy. Now, trying to follow what I've seen on here I just make it worse. She responds better when I'm the 'old me'. Lots of people here talk about self improvement, fixing the things that she didn't like about you. Not just for the M but for yourself. But what about the thing you forgot to be? What about the old you that she fell in love with? Sometimes that person needs to come back. Know what I mean?

So I like the idea of making your feeling be known in a manly way. She has already left. So I want to AT LEAST TRY and intice her back. It doesn't mean there isn't an improved NDY waiting but the old NDY, the one she loved has to come back too.

Peace

I have no problem with this in THEORY, if someone is skilled (and self-assured) enough to thread that needle. In my experience, very, VERY few men can and so my advice is usually to get them to learn to lay and enforce strong boundaries (while remaining civil), and get them the hell AWAY from the simpering pursuit and supplication that we see way too often on this forum.

Heck, very few emotionally HEALTHY males can pull off what ol' Georgia Bulldog describes above; how many just-bombed and WOUNDED men can?


Starsky

but I'm not just bombed. Nor unhealthy. Starsky, I just feeling the 'standard' approach isn't working. It's making things worse, much worse.

/derail

[NDY]

GB, stop by my house anytime. I like the cut of your jib.

[Defacto]

Gang,
So much wisdom has been shared here today. I am completely overwhelmed and humbled by the support. This site truly is a blessing to those who need it most.

Thank you to Zues, T0, Mahhhty, Ripken, RAI, Matt, NDY, Starsky, and GB! Much was discussed even though not all was agreed upon.

The boundary that was set limiting contact with STBX and establishing a protocol for contacting the children on off nights was as more about what's best for my emotional and mental well being than punishing or teaching STBX a lesson.
Tonight was a case in point.

STBX sent me a video TM of S1. I enjoyed the video but didn't reply. Later, I texted STBX asking to speak with the kids. A few minutes later, she called with the kids on the phone. It was a joyous conversation and D4 and S1 kept talking over each other. D4 even spilled the beans on a surprise birthday gift for me. STBX would interject now and then but the whole call revolved around the kids. Two minutes later, we said goodbye and I was on my way to dinner. STBX sent two more video TMs of the kids. I watched them and laughed out loud. However, I didn't reply.

This works for me. Like GB and others said, this arrangement allows me to have some breathing room to work on myself, a time to not worry about analyzing every single stinking thing.

Ultimately, we will adapt an outlook that is wholly customized to fit our particular sitch while founded on the core DB principles. At least, that is what I am trying to do.

All in all, not a bad day for me. I still have a lot of work to do. The dialogue sure helped me keep my mind of my STBX for most of the day for sure. And I have re-read GB's posts at least three times already and plan on reading them one more time before bed.

[claire7]

Nice to hear, Defacto!

in the long run, I think you'll feel that taking the high road when it comes to the kids is better for everyone.

[Defacto]

GB,
I wanted to personally thank you for the time and energy you spent to compose that letter. A few others here have found it useful but It was obviously personalized just me. It's apparent you know my sitch almost as well as I do. I'm going to hold onto it for now and consider sending it if something happens, like you said about getting served.

--------

Part of me is wondering if I should check STBX's phone records again for any intel on the A. I don't like doing it because it sets me back personally but maybe I need to. The other part of me thinks that it is irrelevant if the A is over if STBX is still not expressing interest in working on the MR. However, to GB's point, I don't think she will just walk up and tell me out of the blue that she is ready to try again. Just thinking out loud.

[T384]

I was not a WAW but I know many people fear that the other spouse will not ask to work on the M for whatever reason.

I strongly believed this. I just KNEW my H and knew even if he wanted to *mind reading* that he wouldn't because he was too proud and had done so much damage to our family.

Well - he did do what he needed to do. I'm sure some will argue men vs women but I believe if someone wants something bad enough they will move mountains if need be.

[bravo61]

Well let's not minimize the men v women thing. It's real. There is a reason that somewhere @ 75% of divorces are filed by women. And most of those husbands are shocked because their wives did not share their true feelings. I'm curious how many cases it was the buy into the Hollywood/variations ideal of love-that men are just supposed to "know" otherwise they must not really love you.

I know that has been a real frustration for me and I'm sure it's shared by many LBH.

[T384]

I'm not sure how my post came across as minimizing anything

[Defacto]

T0,
I agree that the WAW has to put in the work. My fear is that because DB is very methodical that some LBS just expect the WAW to appear with arms outstretched. Like you said, I know my STBX and she just might assume I could never forgive her.
Definitely something to be sensitive to as my sitch progresses.

Bravo,
I also agree that there are major differences between men and women in these situations. Often women have been thinking about BD for a long time before it actually hits. As a result, they are far more advanced in their emotional detachment than men at BD. I think this is supported by some of the basic psychological differences between men and women. I also think I read somewhere that women are much less likely to reconcile after BD because of this.

Food for thought I suppose.

[Ripken8]

Defacto - In my opinion, let her come to you. You would want her to approach you to work on the marriage. As much as she wanted out, she did actions to get what she wants.

Why would she now not take any actions if you were what she wanted. I struggle at times thinking "oh ww might not feel safe coming to me and doesn't want to get rejected, blah, blah, blah"

She definitely knew what she was doing when she had the affair. She had needs she wanted met and justified her actions. If/when she's ready, she'll make it known.

THEN you have a better chance of not being a plan B, because she pursued you. Not just agreed to what you asked for.

[sandi2]

Some messages say: manipulate her by validating her and listening to her, spend time with her and others say manipulate her by detaching from her because she needs to feel the loss and be punished.

I do not want to cause confusion on this thread, but I have to comment on the above quote. I have never seen punishment of the WW promoted by anyone here on the board. I have had quite a bit to say about the WW, and I agree with Michele about detaching and that the WW needs to experience the feelings of loss/consequences, but I have never said she should be punished.

I knew the distancing thing was, to her at least me coming across as a jerk.

If a man appears like a jerk, then he must not be applying DB detaching properly. If he applies it right, he becomes interesting and even mysterious to her.

Lots of people here talk about self improvement, fixing the things that she didn't like about you. Not just for the M but for yourself.

It is also talked about becoming the man she fell in love with before M.

So I like the idea of making your feeling be known in a manly way. She has already left. So I want to AT LEAST TRY and intice her back.

If the W is wayward (keyword), she's not going to be interested in listening to the H talk about his feelings. If you see this as enticing her, I think you will be disappointed in the outcome, (if you try to entice by expressing your feelings while she's wayward). A lot of men have tried the talking approach and failed, b/c she was not ready.

[Starsky309]

Part of me is wondering if I should check STBX's phone records again for any intel on the A. I don't like doing it because it sets me back personally but maybe I need to. The other part of me thinks that it is irrelevant if the A is over if STBX is still not expressing interest in working on the MR. However, to GB's point, I don't think she will just walk up and tell me out of the blue that she is ready to try again. Just thinking out loud.

Is there a trusted third party (close friend or family member) that you could have review the intel, and update you only if there's some imminent financial or legal threat to you, and just give you an "executive summary" of whether or not she's still in contact with OM? That's one way to go. Another would be for you to check it, but only, say, once a month.

There's a lot of gray area in between "daily, make-you-nuts spying" and "flying blind without instruments."


Starsky

[NDY]

If you don't mind me jumping in again.

If the W is wayward (keyword), she's not going to be interested in listening to the H talk about his feelings. If you see this as enticing her, I think you will be disappointed in the outcome, (if you try to entice by expressing your feelings while she's wayward). A lot of men have tried the talking approach and failed, b/c she was not ready.

But traditional methods are of gaining attraction are off limits, right? I don't talk about my 'feelings' to my WW although I'm pretty sure she knows. So the only option is detach? Ok, so let's say we are detached. At least to a point. Then what?

[Starsky309]

Then you wait (while simultaneously moving on with your own life), and hope she has some combination of A) coming to her senses, and B) being re-attracted to what attracted her to you to begin with.

People tend to value most that which is difficult to obtain.


Starsky

[NDY]

Thanks Starsky

Then you wait (while simultaneously moving on with your own life), and hope she has some combination of A) coming to her senses, and B) being re-attracted to what attracted her to you to begin with.

People tend to value most that which is difficult to obtain.


Starsky

So back to detaching. That's the key?

[CaliGuy]

Thanks Starsky

Then you wait (while simultaneously moving on with your own life), and hope she has some combination of A) coming to her senses, and B) being re-attracted to what attracted her to you to begin with.

People tend to value most that which is difficult to obtain.


Starsky

So back to detaching. That's the key?

Not to detach just to win her affections back ... you would be defeating the purpose of cutting the string and constantly picking it up to see if there is a nibble right? We call this Temp Checking

You have to turn focus off them, focus on you and what you can do to become a better person ... for YOU .. not them.

Detaching is more of an attitude than an act.

[Ripken8]

THIS is what I would constantly ask in my thread? How will she ever come back? When you drop the rope and are detached she may. Oh, so I guess I need to detach. Nope.

Detaching is not a guarantee of anything happening to or with ww. What I had to learn is if you're still in a place of wondering how or when ww could be re attracted to you, you are not able to detach fully yet.

IMO it only comes when you realize you will be ok either way and accept that. Until u can or do, you'll always have one hand on the rope and be temp checking whether you mean to or not.

[Defacto]

There's a lot of gray area in between "daily, make-you-nuts spying" and "flying blind without instruments."

Starsky,
I think I will move forward with once a month strategy because last time I checked, I was distracted all day in the "make-you-nuts" vein. I think I will wait some more to check because I haven't had any breakthroughs with STBX in a while.

Sandi,
Thanks for stopping by my thread. I had hoped you would visit again because I know you have a invaluable perspective.
I'm curious what you think the proper response to a wayward initiating physical contact, say a hug, should be.

Ripken,
I think you're right on letting STBX come to me. I just worry that I might be too dense and methodical to miss my opportunity. Of course, I think its foolhardy to think that there will suddenly be that magical. a-ha moment.

NDY,
Hijack away. The vets are here for the betterment of all.

Journaling:
Another great day. Work was relatively straight forward. Got home and went for a jog. Then I did some serious gardening on the patio, with the goal of clearing out some space for a butterfly garden for D4. Then, I headed out to do some shopping and errands.

STBX did send me two texts today.

W:I'm really missing you.
W:I was telling the (funny story of mine) story today. It made me smile.

I didn't reply. I did text to talk with kids a few hours later. STBX said she was at a work conference and to call MIL, who was with the kids. So I did.

I'm starting to think about my next in person interaction with STBX for Thursday. I'm a little anxious because Thursday is my birthday and I'm afraid STBX could get emotional when dropping off the kids that night. Just wondering what the appropriate response might be.

[Defacto]

Just before 10pm, STBX called and left a voicemail. She had just finished with her work conference.

"I just wanted to get a chance to talk to you. I thought it would be a good opportunity, but obviously you're not available."

She mentioned something about her in laws watching the kids. I dunno know why this matters, unless she wanted to talk in person. Oh well. I guess it'll have to wait until Thursday.

[T384]

Keep it up, D

I wasn't wayward but I know a lot of us women want what we can't have.

I think right now you need to continue to play it cool and keep it to kid only interactions. Don't backslide with her trying to make sure you're still on the hook.

Let her continue to miss you, the best version of you!

[Fogg]

Interesting conversation in this thread lately.

That voicemail seems like W trying to place guilt on you Defacto. Agree with others, shes trying to make sure your still hooked so leave it.

[Sotto]

Hi Defacto, interesting developments from your W. I would keep her firmly in neighbour zone just now.....I think she's missing having you on the hook.

You're doing great BTW. Do you have nice birthday plans??

[Defacto]

Thanks ladies (and Fogg)! Was it that obvious that I needed a vote of confidence right now? I appreciate it greatly!! I'm just trying to stay focused and consistent. So far, so good...

Do you have nice birthday plans??

Nothing too major. I have the kiddos for my birthday and the weekend (Thurs-Sat). I bought the kids and I a nice steak for the grill so that I have something to be busy with when STBX drops off the kids on Thursday night. On Friday, D4 and I will probably have a movie night and camp out downstairs. On Saturday, the kids and I will spend the night at my best friend's house. His wife has agreed to watch the kids so that some of my pals and I can go out that night. I'm thinking about dragging the guys to a minor league baseball game or something. Still working out the kinks

[Starsky309]

Not to detach just to win her affections back ... you would be defeating the purpose of cutting the string and constantly picking it up to see if there is a nibble right? We call this Temp Checking

I call it "pulling up the carrots to see if they're ripe yet."

[mahhhty]

Enjoy your birthday weekend! It sounds like you will definitely have fun.

[sandi2]

I'm curious what you think the proper response to a wayward initiating physical contact, say a hug, should be.

Never let down your guard. Never think it may be more than what it is. (By "never", I mean as long as she is wayward). I would say to pretend she's a little old lady giving you a hug. You know how you would respond to an elderly grandma's hug. Maybe that will keep you in check.

I am always suspicious of a WW suddenly becoming so friendly with LBH. Most newcomers want to read more into it, when actually it doesn't mean the WW is wanting to R. There are various reasons a WW does this, but rarely is it with the intent of R. When she is authentic about reconciling, it will probably be a slower, and maybe even a more humble approach.

In my WW thread, I talked about the subject of detaching and reattracting the WW. I mean no offense, but I have noticed in past times, people who resist DB detaching and says it doesn't work.......or say it is making matters worse, really have a tough time letting the WS go. Detaching is two-fold. It is primarily for the LBS, but it also has a certain amount of drawing power to the WAS. The LBH has to let her go, first. That has to be what she sees and believes. Yes, she may play every trick in the book to show she can still pull the emotional and sexual strings of the LBH, but it is a test. If he doesn't cave, and stays cool, calm, collected, and in charge.......he passes. She'll act pi$$ed about it, but he passes, and she will want him even more.

Some women are immediately drawn to the H who detaches, and some have to have a good bit of time before they begin getting interested. But as long as he clings to her, waiting around for her waywardness to leave, tolerating her disrespect, trying to be her BFF, etc., I don't believe he will have much more than a limbo relationship with her.

Are there guarantees DBing? A lot of guys have asked this question. Did you have a guarantee she would ever go a date or marry you......before you took the plunge to ask? Do we have anything in life that is a guarantee? There are some differences of opinions in some areas in DBing, but one of the first things Michele teaches is about detaching. The problem for most people is they misunderstand the concept. That, and they are too afraid of it.

No book or program can give guarantees, b/c people are going to mess up. They will do things in the wrong time frame, wait too late before finally doing what should have been done first thing, etc. (Look at how many people will not take the advice they get, then come back and want help getting out of a worse mess). And then there is the wayward, who is in rebellion, so no........nothing is guaranteed.

[Starsky309]

I'm curious what you think the proper response to a wayward initiating physical contact, say a hug, should be.

Never let down your guard. Never think it may be more than what it is. (By "never", I mean as long as she is wayward). I would say to pretend she's a little old lady giving you a hug. You know how you would respond to an elderly grandma's hug. Maybe that will keep you in check.

I am always suspicious of a WW suddenly becoming so friendly with LBH. Most newcomers want to read more into it, when actually it doesn't mean the WW is wanting to R. There are various reasons a WW does this, but rarely is it with the intent of R. When she is authentic about reconciling, it will probably be a slower, and maybe even a more humble approach.

In my WW thread, I talked about the subject of detaching and reattracting the WW. I mean no offense, but I have noticed in past times, people who resist DB detaching and says it doesn't work.......or say it is making matters worse, really have a tough time letting the WS go. Detaching is two-fold. It is primarily for the LBS, but it also has a certain amount of drawing power to the WAS. The LBH has to let her go, first. That has to be what she sees and believes. Yes, she may play every trick in the book to show she can still pull the emotional and sexual strings of the LBH, but it is a test. If he doesn't cave, and stays cool, calm, collected, and in charge.......he passes. She'll act pi$$ed about it, but he passes, and she will want him even more.

Some women are immediately drawn to the H who detaches, and some have to have a good bit of time before they begin getting interested. But as long as he clings to her, waiting around for her waywardness to leave, tolerating her disrespect, trying to be her BFF, etc., I don't believe he will have much more than a limbo relationship with her.

Are there guarantees DBing? A lot of guys have asked this question. Did you have a guarantee she would ever go a date or marry you......before you took the plunge to ask? Do we have anything in life that is a guarantee? There are some differences of opinions in some areas in DBing, but one of the first things Michele teaches is about detaching. The problem for most people is they misunderstand the concept. That, and they are too afraid of it.

No book or program can give guarantees, b/c people are going to mess up. They will do things in the wrong time frame, wait too late before finally doing what should have been done first thing, etc. (Look at how many people will not take the advice they get, then come back and want help getting out of a worse mess). And then there is the wayward, who is in rebellion, so no........nothing is guaranteed.

Starsky

[NDY]

Hi Defacto

So looking at Emotional detachment today (yea, Im that kind of guy) and it wasn't long before I found the page that the detaching thread on this site came from. So looking a little further I found this technique that is meant to help and I thought of us when I found it:

Stand in front of a mirror and think of some of the nastiest and most hurtful things your wife or girlfriend has said or done to you. Maintain eye contact and practice a calm, blank facial expression or a knowing, slightly amused smile. Practice slow, steady and relaxed breathing. Lower the tone of your voice (higher pitched voices reveal anxiety and agitation). Your shoulders, arms and hands should hang loose. Keep practicing relaxed and detached body language until you actually feel indifferent and unruffled by her barbs, jabs and eye rolls. In other words, fake it ’til you make it.

Hope this helps.

[sandi2]

I hope so, too, NDY. You aren't the first, nor last, to have trouble with it.

[NDY]

Hi sandi. I'm just glad I have something I can work with now.


Defacto - start a new thread - Cadet