Raliced - The Magnificent Seventh

[SunnyB]

I was going to echo Raliced's point about getting to that place with her STBX that Betsey is with her XH. I just don't see it happening. He took everything I cared about and trashed it. The stuff I'm going through now trying to sort through the mess... I just don't see getting over that at all.

MB, as Betsey reminds us, she's got a lot of years being D and Mr. Perfect being able to become just that. Give it time.

Raliced, I've been interested in yours and Mozza's exchanges about what's best for the kids. And I will always believe it's two loving parents raising them together. Always. But I also see other D couples still hauling each other into court 15 years later, stalking each other, purposely alienating the children from the other parent. My D17 has a friend whose mother walked away when he was a baby and he hasn't seen her since. Dad has a rotating stable of girlfriends, and his "main" girlfriend now has a 5-month old that's not his. Point is, D wasn't yours or mine first choice, but gosh, we're doing the best we can, and our kids truly will be just fine.

[Bob723]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hello Raliced,

I couldn't agree more with Sunny. She nailed it.

Please hang in there. I know, easier said than done, but you can do it!

Bob

[raliced]

Raliced, I've been interested in yours and Mozza's exchanges about what's best for the kids. And I will always believe it's two loving parents raising them together. Always. But I also see other D couples still hauling each other into court 15 years later, stalking each other, purposely alienating the children from the other parent. My D17 has a friend whose mother walked away when he was a baby and he hasn't seen her since. Dad has a rotating stable of girlfriends, and his "main" girlfriend now has a 5-month old that's not his. Point is, D wasn't yours or mine first choice, but gosh, we're doing the best we can, and our kids truly will be just fine.

Well- I'm not trying to come across as overly negative. I'm aware that children of divorce can thrive and on the flip side, I am sure there are happily married couples who do everything right who still have troubled children. If anyone knew the magic formula - I'm sure we would all be using it.

but......

I'm someone who puts some value in statistics - and the statistics still reflect more challenges for children of divorce (and yes, this gets complicated, because divorce is also more prevalent in lower socio-economic classes, which could explain some of the problems), blah, blah, blah, etc. etc. When push comes to shove, I feel like a lot of the advice in these situations comes down to "just" statements. If you can "just" communicate, "just" be civil, "just" keep things consistent between households. "just" not badmouth each other, everything will be fine! And I am deeply suspicious of any "justs" when it comes to raising children in the best of circumstances and this is a long ways from the best of circumstances. So- I'm trying to approach this topic thoughtfully and with some care. Additionally, not only did I not come from a divorced family, there have never been any in my immediate circle - so I really feel like I am navigating without a map somewhat.

There are a couple of things that have popped up already that are already concerns:

Because STBX moved in directly with his girlfriend, D7 has sometimes voiced the troubling conclusion that he chose OW over all of us. And then I am put in the position of basically trying to convince her that he only had problems with me (and I'm not sure I believe that, it seems like he picked OW over his life, which included being a daily part of his children's lives). That's a super fun conversation to have with one's child. And it keeps popping up.

Then, as I mentioned earlier, STBX has developed a pretty dark view of the world. An example: there's a boy in D7's class who was also in her kindergarten class and is constantly in trouble. STBX had a chance to observe him in his capacity as parent volunteer, and two months into kindergarten had already written the kid off as a complete loss who would be in jail by age 15. I'm sure there are a smattering of psychopaths in the world, but otherwise, I refuse to believe that at the age of 6, any kid is irredeemable. When he still lived with us, I could help mitigate that somewhat but now he has apparently taken off any filter in the way he discusses this kid with D7. So now she gets these wildly divergent viewpoints of the world, and that seems like pretty tricky waters for such a young kid to sort through and navigate.

And then of course, I know kids aren't supposed to feel like they are picking sides. But when I had to tell D7 we would divorce (because STBX foisted that chore on me), I tried to do so in as non blaming non judgmental way as possible. And the first thing she said to me? "Mommy, I love you more than Daddy". I will remember the look on her face and the choked tone of her voice for the rest of my life.

[claire7]

Raliced,

Sometimes I wonder if the real test of my "parent-ness" (the ability to truly selflessly care for another) will be how I talk to my D about the divorce. My STBX didn't really know much about his parents' divorce (which happened when he was very young), and he always thought highly of his mom for never speaking ill of his dad. But then he also talked of how devastated he was to accidentally find out in college that his dad had actually left his mom for another woman. This wasn't the story he thought he knew.

I don't know what the right answer is. Being a parent and doing right by your kids is hard enough when both parents are on the same page in a loving relationship. But this stuff? ugh. So hard.

We just have to be true to ourselves and love our children through it the best we can.

[Mozza]

Racliced - I just want to say that I'm still around, still listening. Thanks for your thoughtful post on why you think he left. I know it's clear for others, but to me it's just confusing. I don't see much except the usual daily life. I feel immense guilt for what I've done that lead to D, but if I were you, I'd just be left confused as to why being myself, a good person, lead me where I am. Again, I guess we can't really understand the decisions of the WAS because we all have different criteria and thresholds. We have to just accept it, when just accepting that they have a right to do it unilaterally is hard enough.

Thanks also for sharing your views on the effects of D on the kids. Part of me really, really want it to be proven to be a bad thing. But that's also the part of me that thinks I can control this situation and reason WW back into the M. Another part of me tells me that this is the new normal and that, the harder it is on kids, the more involved I should be to make it successful.

[Underdog]

Mozza - That's it. For most of us here, on the surface what we list as possible causes for the demise of our marriages, it often looks to others as, "yeah, that's me too, so what gives?" My marriage was no worse than my cousin's. Yet I'm divorced and he isn't. Why? I can cover that one with a broad brush - neither he nor his wife want out at the same time, and they both know that it's no easier to split.

Sigh.

Raliced, like you I didn't come from a broken family. At the time I started this process, none of my friends had traveled that route either. Like you, I felt at times that I was navigating a course that nobody around me could help me travel. That's good and it's bad. The bad part is that if you're someone who relishes learning bad things from the mistakes of others, you're SOL. Good if it means you get to write your own rules.

That friendship I have with Mr. Wonderful took place over a period of time. It definitely wasn't happening when we were going through the D. When I noticed it first was 6 months post-D. I had emergency gall bladder surgery during the girls' fall break. He went to my house, did yard work, cleaned and did my laundry. And then he brought the girls over to see me. Post surgery, I woke up to find him holding my hand in my bed. That's when it occurred to me that things had changed. I didn't realize that along the way, I had been laying the ground work for that possibility.

I know plenty of you won't agree with me for this, but I'll tell you my secret. For 2 long, difficult years, I worked really hard on forgiveness. Oddly enough, forgiving him was easier than forgiving myself. I had done a post mortem, and while I would agree with Mozza that none of my crap seemed to be a deal breaker, apparently it was. The one thing I can tell you on my own post mortem summary is that many, many times I was unwilling to change the things that hurt him the most. I'm pretty sure that's why he felt hopeless about the possibility of reconciling. I didn't change for him. Yep, he was the catalyst and impetus, but I realized along the way that I was not a happy person. Anyhoo...

So I'll help you with your map, Raliced. Here's where I think you're getting stuck:

Because STBX moved in directly with his girlfriend, D7 has sometimes voiced the troubling conclusion that he chose OW over all of us. And then I am put in the position of basically trying to convince her that he only had problems with me (and I'm not sure I believe that, it seems like he picked OW over his life, which included being a daily part of his children's lives). That's a super fun conversation to have with one's child. And it keeps popping up.

Ummm, it keeps popping up because you think this is the direct route to understanding the quality of the roads to your destination. Sure, this has to be one of those hideous thoughts that pop up from time to time. The ever pervasive 'why'. It's a pothole, Raliced. You're only going to wind up needing a costly realignment adjustment.

His choices reflect HIS shortcomings and skewed belief system, dearest. He chose to run away. I know you've read here that the OW is only the symptom, not the cause. Since I was the one who teetered on the edge of infidelity, I can tell you first hand it's the truth. It had a little to do with my XH - he was unwilling to do what he knew I needed from him as my husband. Someone was in the wings that seemed willing to be that person for me. I was responsible for how it manifested itself. I was responsible for finding other ways to hit a reset button and asking for what I wanted. I was responsible for how I behaved.

Your STBXH's manifestations are undoubtedly the result of *his* unwillingness to dig deep and ask himself tough questions and to hold himself accountable for all the things in his life that weren't working - without dumping his family. He chose a path that he believed was easier for him to deal with - it's far, far easier to discard than it is to repair and buy new. At least initially.

I can tell you that I have heard more than a handful of times from my XH that he truly regrets our situation and wishes he would have tried harder to change the outcome. Twelve years later, he admits to me that he's not happier; 12 years later he tells me the common denominator in his problems is HIM. He's not done much to fix things, but he's fully aware now.

It will be fine, Raliced. All those things that you said *do* mean something. Sure, if you had both had the maturity and evolvement as a married couple to sit down and talk through the consequences, that would be different. But the storm hit, the barn door is open and the animals have long fled. All you can do at this point is to forge forward with your own plan.

There was a great article in the Washington Post either Sunday or yesterday about a guy who was ruminating on life and sought counsel from a Catholic priest, an evangelical minister, a rabbi, an atheist, a Buddhist monk, and a Muslim imam. They each had a similar theme - that it was pointless to look backward, and that success could only be achieved by moving forward and living in the now. It was a great article.

This is what I would advise you and all others here. It's great to do the post mortem so that you don't make the same mistakes in the future. But the real growth occurs when you create something positive for yourself and your girls, using what you've learned so far.

My D21 has expressed similar sentiments in the past as your D. It made my heart hurt. There ARE consequences for their actions, my friend. And because you love your girls with all your heart and soul, it hurts you too. But you can do it. How do I know this? Because you've been doing it all along. You're a winner. And winners never quit.

Hugs,

Betsey

[raliced]

Hi All,

Pardon the brevity - I always feel bad when I get such thoughtful responses and don't respond in kind. I'll be a little tied up for the rest of the morning.

I know it's clear for others, but to me it's just confusing. I don't see much except the usual daily life.

Well, yeah, that makes two of us. I was raised with the notion that all marriages go through rough spots and I observed several of them first hand with my parents. After my mother had a hysterectomy when I was 10, all I can say is that she was in a very bad mood for 2 years, and Dad took the brunt of it. But they made it through and thrived. So, when these problems in my marriage popped up, I was probably a little too quick to just passively think "this is just a rough spot" instead of engaging it head on. And, in fairness to me, I always thought STBX had a similar mindset. Lesson learned.

I know plenty of you won't agree with me for this, but I'll tell you my secret. For 2 long, difficult years, I worked really hard on forgiveness. Oddly enough, forgiving him was easier than forgiving myself. I had done a post mortem, and while I would agree with Mozza that none of my crap seemed to be a deal breaker, apparently it was. The one thing I can tell you on my own post mortem summary is that many, many times I was unwilling to change the things that hurt him the most. I'm pretty sure that's why he felt hopeless about the possibility of reconciling. I didn't change for him. Yep, he was the catalyst and impetus, but I realized along the way that I was not a happy person. Anyhoo...

Thank you for another great post, Betsey. And I totally agree with you about the forgiveness. I know it in my bones. I know its not good for me, for my health, or for our parenting relationship to hold on to all the anger. Full confession though- I'm a ways off from that right now. Currently, I guess I'm at a place where I am still putting a condition on forgiveness, which is that I need to hear some sincere remorse. First off - I know that's not true forgiveness, and secondly, I know I'm not going to hear that any time soon. So - I'll keep plugging away and hopefully the time will come.

Hey - how about some more cheerful news! At D7s request, I took the training wheels off of her bike this weekend and taught her to ride it. There was a tense moment, when I didn't think I could wrestle the training wheels off (whoever installed them at the store was STRONG), but we got it done and she has joined the ranks of her bike riding friends.

[Underdog]

And I totally agree with you about the forgiveness. I know it in my bones. I know its not good for me, for my health, or for our parenting relationship to hold on to all the anger. Full confession though- I'm a ways off from that right now. Currently, I guess I'm at a place where I am still putting a condition on forgiveness, which is that I need to hear some sincere remorse. First off - I know that's not true forgiveness, and secondly, I know I'm not going to hear that any time soon. So - I'll keep plugging away and hopefully the time will come.

Honest and normal. I hope by now you see that this is a process, and it is not linear and sometimes you find yourself right back at square 1. The only way I made headway was to leave that condition out of it. I literally had to imagine that he had died and wouldn't be around to express remorse. That visualization did help. I literally had to remind myself of my decision every.single.time I went on one of my regularly scheduled internal rants. "Oh yeah, didn't you promise to let that go?" "Oh yeah, I did. Thanks for reminding me."

I'd be good for a few hours and then I would have to remind myself again. Later on, I'd go a month or so and then find myself really angry - I had to journal to figure that out. I realized that I was angriest when I was doing something that he used to do that I hated - like shoveling snow or yard work, or parenting a tough issue where I needed help. It's okay. Just pick yourself up again, brush off the dirt and dust and start all over again. It becomes a habit.

Once I realized that what he said, did or felt didn't matter one bit when it came to free rent inside my head, I made great gains. By the time he expressed any remorse (which took on the appearance of little truth darts), it didn't mean anything to me. I didn't need his input to make myself feel better or happier. Liberating, actually.

Give yourself a big break and then a pat on the back. You do the best job you can do today and then LET GO. It's enough.

BTW,

I was probably a little too quick to just passively think "this is just a rough spot" instead of engaging it head on. And, in fairness to me, I always thought STBX had a similar mindset. Lesson learned.

This is true for me too. Just because my parents put up with passive aggressive fighting and mean spirited nagging doesn't mean that it's right or that it's what should be. Svcks.

Now, back to work here too. I've got some marketing stuff I need to work on. It doesn't come easily to me, so I have to devote quiet time to reflect and plod forward.

TTFN

p.s. Congrats on the newest 2 wheel bike driver in your house! Cheers!

[raliced]

So- the exchange with Betsey regarding forgiveness got me thinking about how I feel about STBX in general right now. I think I’ve compartmentalized that and put it on the shelf to deal with later. It’s enough to keep going every day and deal with all the practicalities and my anxieties regarding my daughters and maybe I’m just a little numb on the subject of STBX. Honestly – I’m not sure what my opinion or feelings are towards him. I read other threads and the LBS is clearly yearning for the WAS, and I’m certainly not doing that. I’ve never tortured myself with thoughts of him sexually with the OWs. I have a general thought that runs through my head quite a bit that a guy who is willing to cheat on his wife and leave his family and a woman who is willing to cheat with a married man with young children (and move in directly together) are probably well suited to one another. And while I don’t want to sound Victorian and judgmental – my chief issue is that I really don’t want my kids in that household or absorbing any attitude that this is acceptable behavior. I know I don’t have a choice in this – so I work on letting it go and I guess I should be grateful that at least they are both gainfully employed and reasonably responsible on practical matters.

You know – when you realize that your spouse has been engaged in multiple affairs there is plenty to be upset about but it’s funny how you can fixate on certain specific things. I keep coming back to the fact that he started cheating when D3 was still an infant. I can’t tell you what an exhausting and difficult time that was for me. I had to go back to work when she was 8 weeks old. When I was home, she wouldn’t let anyone else hold her and because of STBX’s schedule – I almost never got any kind of break because he worked weekends. Between work and childcare, I felt on the clock 24/7 (we had no family nearby). I did ask him to watch her for an hour in the evenings so that I could exercise, but she cried the whole time and he visibly hated doing it so I ended up having to give that up. But he had the time to start up a new romance. Those times when he had to “work late” and I picked up the slack with the kids…….I’m just not able to let that go right now.

I have my kids about 80% of the time. I’m very grateful for that. I frequently don’t sleep well and sometimes I find myself looking at their precious slumbering faces, and I quite literally cannot comprehend why he would voluntarily give so much of them up. I accept that I will probably never understand it – it is one of the reasons why he feels so distant to me right now.

I have a lot to look forward to in the future. I feel myself getting excited and feeling positive about all the wonderful times we have ahead and then I feel like I crash down to Earth as I remember “Oh yeah..I still have to deal with him”.

I’m trying to force myself to remember all the positives about him. I don’t know that I’m particularly successful with that right now, but I figure if I keep doing it eventually it will help.

[Vanilla]

Rall

Just catching up with your sitch again.

My understand is slightly different:

Anger is a primary emotion and can't be controlled. You either feel it or you don't as it's an autonomic or limbic response like fear. It's biological and it's a healthy way of being if your boundaries are infringed or you are remembering they are. It's the reactions to anger, viz resentment, aggression or abuse which can be managed.

In my book the long term behaviour of resentment can lead to inward expressions of stress and damage. So I try to let go of the resentment in case that leads me to act in a passive aggressive way to myself or others. I say try because sometimes I don't succeed because in essence I don't want to. But anger can be useful and a real motivator.

I like that you are angry that WH had multiple affairs, sounds like a healthy response to me!

So I like anger but not the behaviour that goes with it. And frankly I only forgive people who deserve to be forgiven and neither do I forget. What I do is state my boundary firmly then say let go and I turn the other cheek without reacting. I have no resentment reaction and the anger goes. For me the ultimate is indifference and I feel "whatever" but "do it again" - and I will enforce my boundary.

Just musing again

V