Feeling a little down today. Last week, I texted and emailed my WW a few times in regards to some financial issues and the court proceedings related to the divorce. I never received a response. Then out of the blue today she calls me. We spoke for 3 hours.
Topics of Conversation:
The Divorce She has taken no action in getting our attorney friend to write the decree. Months ago, she said she was going to. Today, she said she didn't feel comfortable having our friend write it up. Instead, W wanted to use some standard form she found online. I told her I would prefer that we stick with the original plan and get our friend to write it. I told W that I would call our attorney friend tomorrow and get her the information she needed for the decree. W said ok.
Blameshifting Let me start by saying that I don't know if the original OM or any other OM is still in the picture. I have not checked W's phone bill like I used to. It used to drive me crazy, so I stopped 6 months ago.
So, at one point in the conversation, W told me that what she did (the A) was wrong and she was sorry that it happened. (Note: she didn't say she was sorry for the pain she put me through, only that the A happened). Then she said that I am partially to blame for her A. Unbelievable! I said no way, she was 100% responsible for her affair. She had a choice to make and she chose to have an A. That was not me. I stood firm here and refused to let her blame me for her A. I felt stronger here than I have been in the past.
She also mentioned again that I "made" her feel worthless throughout the last 2 years of our M. I told her I'm sorry she felt that way but it was not my intention to make her feel miserable. She mentioned a few specifics and I validated her feelings where appropriate. We also talked about the 2 IC's that we both saw and she said counseling was worthless. I felt like saying, "Well yeah, if you go in there with no intention of trying, it is worthless". I didn't say it obviously.
Remorse or Not? I can't remember why, but for some reason she brought up the topic of "being friends". I stated my boundary and let her know that we were not on "good terms" as long as there was an OM and she would have to show remorse for her actions. She said, "Oh well, I hardly talk to OM anymore, so I think we're good." I said that was not good enough.
The topic changed to remorse and what remorse was. She said she felt remorse and I said that she didn't. (I think this bit me later in the conversation ). I told her remorse requires not only caring about the BS's feeling more that your own, but also having and showing empathy for the pain that you put them through. I said remorse requires actions. She claimed that she was feeling HER type of remorse. Truth is, she has no idea what true remorse is as it relates to infidelity and relationships. I don't know if she will ever understand. We must have talked for an hour on the subject and she just doesn't get it. So frustrating.
The Comment At the end of the conversation I eloquently summarized how she felt. I can't remember the specifics but I said something like "I understand that you feel how you feel and that is not up to interpretation by me. Your feelings are your feelings and if I ever said you should not feel a certain way, I sincerely apologize."
We ended the conversation on some other topic.
The Call Back Two minutes after we hang up, she calls me back extremely upset. She was raising her voice, and frankly, I was shocked by it. She said she had waited for 2 years to hear me say that (the comment above) and she was angry at me for not "getting it" sooner. More blaming. She continued to yell at me and I told her I "got it" the day of D-Day and I told her I said that exact thing on D-Day (I really did!). She could not recall me saying that. She said that if I would have told her that on D-Day, then we might have had a chance. Why did she say this?
Then she went into if I felt that way (what I mentioned about her having her feelings), why won't I believe that she is remorseful? I said I think we have different definitions of what remorse is. She said again that she feels remorseful and that I was telling her that she didn't. How should I respond to this?
Meaningless Crap She tried to sprinkle the conversation with small talk about the weather, her dog, her job, etc. I engaged in that talk as little as possible. I feel very strongly like she's trying to "put me in the friendzone" and I will not let that happen. I will not be demoted. DB experts, is this an appropriate boundary for me to maintain?
Summary I realize that I probably broke many of the DB rules in this conversation, but I felt I did better than I have done in past conversations. I validated her feelings like crazy, I did not beg, I did not cry. She initiated the relationship talk, but I suppose I could have ended it sooner instead of engaging in the conversation. I did make the mistake of mentioning that we had good times in the past and that she is only focusing on the negative.
If anyone has advice or comments on any of the topics above, I would appreciate it. I'm sure there will be some much needed 2x4's coming my way too. I'm ready for them.
Me: 34 W: 30 Together: 11 years Married: 4 years BD: 4/2014 A Discovered: 5/2014 WW Filed: 7/2014 Separated: 8/2014 Divorced: 10/2015
She was raising her voice, and frankly, I was shocked by it. She said she had waited for 2 years to hear me say that (the comment above) and she was angry at me for not "getting it" sooner. More blaming. She continued to yell at me and I told her I "got it" the day of D-Day and I told her I said that exact thing on D-Day (I really did!). She could not recall me saying that. She said that if I would have told her that on D-Day, then we might have had a chance. Why did she say this?
Most likely because she's still in contact (if not more) with her OM. The level of sudden anger on her part strikes me that your apology and your acceptance of your role in your marital dysfunction (but not her affair -- good job there) has thrown her compartmentalizing equilibrium for a loop. (Basically, "How could I have done what I did to Thriver if he's NOT such an uncaring monster after all?")
As for "how to handle" the friend thing, I would urge you to just let it play out organically. Don't feel like you have to make some grand pronouncement in this regard, nor give he answers for everything she brings up. Maybe just a "We will have to see how our relationship plays out going forward, but you know where I stand on the affair and it's not going to change. Friends don't treat friends that way" or some such.
If she is still wayward, there's not much you're going to accomplish in such a long (3 hours??!) conversation. Here's how I feel about those conversations, taken from my personal archives:
Types of Convos
Here's the thing: if someone is in an ongoing, unrepentant affair, there are only a few types of conversations/communications they can have with their betrayed spouse, and ALL of them are cheeseless tunnels for the BS:
2) Seemingly POSITIVE ones. So long as they are still in contact with OM/OW and lying to their spouse about it, these are all "bullchit spin" at best, and outright GASLIGHTING and LIES at worse. And the problem is, the betrayed spouse inevitably sees this as "baby steps!" and true marital progress, when they are no such thing. They can lead to horrible strategic and tactical mistakes, esp. if the BS doesn't have a good intel system in place. Reading my old journal yesterday, I was BLOWN AWAY at how stable I was able to be in the face of my wife's deceit, simply because I HAD INTEL TO SHOW ME OTHERWISE. This can't be overemphasized.
3) LEGAL/FINANCIAL ones. These are best handled by your attorney, for the obvious reasons. If you start negotiating yourself, when you are way, way, WAY too emotionally entrenched in the situation (and also often running on too-little sleep and WAY too-little emotional needs of your own being met), YOU WILL MAKE FOOLISH MISTAKES and UNWISE CONCESSIONS.
4) FAMILY/LOGISTICAL ones. These are fine, but best handled via e-mail or text message. A cheating spouse will use these as a ploy to lure you into R convos and worse; SEE #1 ABOVE.
5) SMALL-TALK. This is fine, but only in RESPONSE -- don't initiate it if your strategy is to go "dim" and if it's to go "dark" you shouldn't even respond. If it's "dim," then only respond to one of every several communications, and usually delayed, because you're BUSY and GETTING A LIFE, remember?
It's also possible that she's p*ssed if what you suspect is true and that is that OM dropped her. So she may be thinking "Great, OM has dumped me and now Thriver is proving to be not the uncaring, non-understanding monster I thought he was and I'm too far down the divorce path now!" and she's freaking out.
As Cadet said, best to remain calm and just continue to DB. You have to demonstrate (even if just for yourself) that your changes are real, and the added bonus is that your wife WILL notice that.
She was raising her voice, and frankly, I was shocked by it. She said she had waited for 2 years to hear me say that (the comment above) and she was angry at me for not "getting it" sooner. More blaming. She continued to yell at me and I told her I "got it" the day of D-Day and I told her I said that exact thing on D-Day (I really did!). She could not recall me saying that. She said that if I would have told her that on D-Day, then we might have had a chance. Why did she say this?
Most likely because she's still in contact (if not more) with her OM. The level of sudden anger on her part strikes me that your apology and your acceptance of your role in your marital dysfunction (but not her affair -- good job there) has thrown her compartmentalizing equilibrium for a loop. (Basically, "How could I have done what I did to Thriver if he's NOT such an uncaring monster after all?")
As for "how to handle" the friend thing, I would urge you to just let it play out organically. Don't feel like you have to make some grand pronouncement in this regard, nor give he answers for everything she brings up. Maybe just a "We will have to see how our relationship plays out going forward, but you know where I stand on the affair and it's not going to change. Friends don't treat friends that way" or some such.
If she is still wayward, there's not much you're going to accomplish in such a long (3 hours??!) conversation. Here's how I feel about those conversations, taken from my personal archives:
Types of Convos
Here's the thing: if someone is in an ongoing, unrepentant affair, there are only a few types of conversations/communications they can have with their betrayed spouse, and ALL of them are cheeseless tunnels for the BS:
2) Seemingly POSITIVE ones. So long as they are still in contact with OM/OW and lying to their spouse about it, these are all "bullchit spin" at best, and outright GASLIGHTING and LIES at worse. And the problem is, the betrayed spouse inevitably sees this as "baby steps!" and true marital progress, when they are no such thing. They can lead to horrible strategic and tactical mistakes, esp. if the BS doesn't have a good intel system in place. Reading my old journal yesterday, I was BLOWN AWAY at how stable I was able to be in the face of my wife's deceit, simply because I HAD INTEL TO SHOW ME OTHERWISE. This can't be overemphasized.
3) LEGAL/FINANCIAL ones. These are best handled by your attorney, for the obvious reasons. If you start negotiating yourself, when you are way, way, WAY too emotionally entrenched in the situation (and also often running on too-little sleep and WAY too-little emotional needs of your own being met), YOU WILL MAKE FOOLISH MISTAKES and UNWISE CONCESSIONS.
4) FAMILY/LOGISTICAL ones. These are fine, but best handled via e-mail or text message. A cheating spouse will use these as a ploy to lure you into R convos and worse; SEE #1 ABOVE.
5) SMALL-TALK. This is fine, but only in RESPONSE -- don't initiate it if your strategy is to go "dim" and if it's to go "dark" you shouldn't even respond. If it's "dim," then only respond to one of every several communications, and usually delayed, because you're BUSY and GETTING A LIFE, remember?
Puppy
Thriver, I'm with Starsky on utilizing intel to validate and confirm the appropriate DB strategy.
Starsky, Pardon the hijack but we could really use some of your wisdom on my thread. We just were asking questions about the appropriate types of convo's for the LBS to have with the WW.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Defacto, just read your entire thread. I'm basically with 0324 and the advice you've been getting from him and Georgia Bulldogs -- you need to PULL BACK more. Your wife has no credible fear that she's losing you, from what I've read.
Defacto, just read your entire thread. I'm basically with 0324 and the advice you've been getting from him and Georgia Bulldogs -- you need to PULL BACK more. Your wife has no credible fear that she's losing you, from what I've read.
I'll try to stop by there and post more.
Starsky
Wow. Thanks Starsky. I'd be grateful. Sorry, hijacking over.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Huddy, from day one, she has not expressed any true interest in reconciling. We had a false R last Summer for 1 week. She was still in contact with OM throughout that.
I am still interested in reconciling but not if there's an OM in the picture.
Me: 34 W: 30 Together: 11 years Married: 4 years BD: 4/2014 A Discovered: 5/2014 WW Filed: 7/2014 Separated: 8/2014 Divorced: 10/2015
). I told her remorse requires not only caring about the BS's feeling more that your own, but also having and 
