Mozza - I have received similar feedback from therapists and I find it very difficult to completely swallow. I'm sure kids can eventually thrive with divorced parents - but the gold standard is still an intact family with two parents in the home. STBX and I don't fight in front of the kids (or anywhere else for that matter) and I don't believe there is any badmouthing going on. Nonetheless, I can tell you that both of my girls are extremely anxious that I am going to just disappear. We were all out in the yard over the weekend, and I walked around the corner of the house for a moment to grab a rake and D7 started screaming for me in terror (I'm not exaggerating). They have stomach aches all the time. I'm guessing these things probably wouldn't have happened if there was no divorce.
The book I read was touted as the "only scholarly study of the long term effects of divorce on children". I'm not sure I agree with the"scholarly" assessment - but basically the author followed a group of children for 25 years post divorce beginning in the 70s. Of course a lot has changed since then, and a lot of the things that caused problems for the kids are not an issue in our situation; not being able to participate in extracurricular activities, poverty, the Mom previously being the sole caretaker and then abruptly having to go to work, moving etc. But, what got me a little upset and saddened was the last case study in the book- which most closely paralleled my sitch . It described a girl who was four when her parents split. The father remarried the day after the divorce was final. There was no fighting and the stepmother did her best to be warm and affectionate. Yet the girl felt tremendous pressure not to let anyone know how unhappy she was, and when she was a teenager she realized her father must have had an affair with the 2nd wife and she struggled with losing respect for him. There was also a cautionary tale (for me) that the Mom in that situation never really got over it and continued to be sad - and the daughter felt burdened by being "responsible" for her mother's happiness. I will be very careful to not let that happen. The girl became a successful adult in a material sense but was unable to form a lasting relationship with an appropriate partner.
I know that doesn't have to be the fate of my daughters - but it was a pretty sobering read and reinforced a lot of fears that I have on this topic. We all bring our personal experiences to this. I came from a pretty functional, intact family. My sense of self is firmly grounded in that type of upbringing. That's what I know. I wanted that for my daughters. When I grew up there weren't many children of divorce in my advanced placement, college track classes - and I don't think that was coincidence. The first guy I dated was a product of a messy divorce; such a talented, charismatic guy - but a total and complete mess. He certainly had never let go of his parents divorce.
I do think that it can be made to be pretty ok for the kids. But I think that there are a lot of opportunities in divorce to make the already difficult job of raising kids a lot harder. I doubt it's a simple as just "communicating well.
It reminds me of the Albert Einstein quote someone around here has, something to the affect, "You can't fix problems using the same logic that created the problem." Parenting still needs to occur even though a D has occurred. Furthermore, a D by nature is usually a unilateral decision.
I need to focus more attention on these topics, for my kids. Thanks Raliced.
Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2 M - 8/2008 W is not happy - 1/2014 W wants D - 9/2014 W moved out - 11/2014 D filed - 1/23/2015 D'ed - 2/25/2015 Gave X the Letter - 11/10/2015
I agree with everything you wrote. I'm also concerned about the impact of D and I've a very hard time believing that it's just as good as M. It makes no sense to me, as if this is all just random associations of people. I'm also hurt to hear that it doesn't make a difference to my kids that I'm not there half the time, that they get either half the parenting or the supervision of another "father figure" than me, with my love, and it's all the same. Then again, it's my emotions talking. The same emotions that want to tell WW: "You can't leave, look at the research!" The emotions that want to win the D vs M argument, as if this is an argument.
Can you remind me why you think STBX left? For most of us here, I feel like our issues appear between the lines of our writing (me especially...), but for you, I'll admit that I'm stumped. You seem so even keeled, rational, generous, intelligent, a good mom. I haven't followed your sitch from the beginning and I went back a little, but I couldn't find this kind of summary. I noticed that you were thinking too much about the "whys" earlier and I don't want to send you down that dangerous road, so feel free to skip this question if you think it could cause you harm.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
For what it's worth, my parents divorced when I was young (at age 13 months, I think) - so that was my "normal." My mom remarried when I was six. My father was in and out of the picture due to his mental illness. He was (and still is) completely unstable and not at all a father figure.
I can say with 100% certainty that in my case -- divorce WAS (and still is) the best thing for my parents. The life that I would've lived is not something that I would've wanted to be subjected to, nor would I want other children to be subjected to.
Did I have my own issues? Sure. Did all of them stem from my parents divorce. Nah. I turned out ok (I mean, ok is a subjective term) - or at least I think so. One of my best friends -- her parents divorced and due to legal reasons that are private, neither she nor her mother have any contact with her father. My friend is one of the most well rounded, adjusted people I know.
My H's parents did stay together "for the kids" - in a very toxic relationship that has now bled over into both of their kids lives. My H and his brother both have serious issues themselves which can somewhat be attributed to their parents marriage. My other best friend? Her parents never fight -- have been married 35+ years - and she has her own set of issues: choosing the wrong man, loss of direction in life. My SIL: parents have been married for 30+ years. The definition of "good marriage." She struggles with self-esteem issues, anxiety, etc. My childhood best friend? Parents are together 40+ years. He has ALOT of issues.
What I'm getting at is this: I don't think a marriage or divorce or being civil or not can irreparably damage someone. Do I think that some issues might stem from it? Absolutely. But I think it's a contributing effect - and not a defining factor. So to speak.
But that's my .02.
M:32,H 32 T:10, M5 BD/H Move Out: 9/2014 - extreme anger H Mental Illness Diagnosis: 4/15 Served D Papers: 10/15 Divorced: 11/15
I don’t mind at all. What I’m going to write here is completely from my perspective of course, because unlike other sitches here, my STBX hasn’t been very forthcoming on the “whys” and almost no spew. I got nothing before or at BD, and when he emailed me to tell me he had filed for divorce he simply said that we lived separate lives, that we barely slept in the same bed and that he wished that we could have worked on things, but we could have only done so when we lived a “perfect country life” in Iowa. I’ll address all of these in the following. Possible reasons he left…….
1. We both avoid conflict. In my career, it has been very beneficial to ignore a lot of the “small things” and focus on the big picture. I took this mindset into my marriage to my detriment and STBX will wrap himself into a pretzel before saying something is wrong or getting into an argument. So, for example, through the years, as happens with most couples, he said some things that were pretty hurtful. Not a lot, but a few. Once he said that we should move close to his mom so that our daughter would have a strong female role model. That really hurt. I don’t think he meant it as a dig at me, but it felt that way. Instead of saying something – I just looked at it as the sort of absent minded, thoughtless comment we all make occasionally. But I probably didn’t really let it go and I bet I showed I was hurt for a few days. I am trying to be a lot more aware of that tendency these days.
2. His job. STBX became a cop when I was pregnant with D7 (he left for the academy when I was in my third trimester). His work has been an issue in three ways. He formed very intense friendships with the people he worked with (I think this partially comes with the territory), and at some point the intensity of these friendships seemed to lessen our own bond by comparison. His work schedule has always been challenging. In Iowa (2007-2012) he worked mostly graveyard (10:00 pm – 6:00am) with some swing (3:00pm to 11:00pm), 6 days on then 3 days off. His comment about us not sharing the same bed is directly related to his work schedule. We literally didn’t sleep at the same time for years. Finally, his work has given him a pretty dark view of the world and one that is not necessarily in sync with my own.
3. The Testosterone thing. When he had his physical to become a cop – they identified that he had very low testosterone so they immediately put him on supplements. In retrospect it’s hard for me to believe that suddenly introducing that level of hormones didn’t possibly affect him in unexpected ways. And that leads me to ….
4. Porn. This is a tough one. We had troubles getting pregnant with D3. At first I assumed that I was the problem due to my age –but some testing revealed that STBX was completely sterile. Apparently this is a common side effect of testosterone supplements. The urologist temporarily took him off the supplements and explained that as the medication wore off he would get up to speed more quickly by being “productive” as frequently as possible. I thought I was being very modern and open minded and suggested that he get some porn to help out for the times that I was not around. He bought a couple of DVDs. After we got pregnant, he got right back on the testosterone. He also continued to order the occasional DVD. And here is where my conflict avoidance cropped up again. I really didn’t like it, but other guys I know say “all men do it”…so….I said nothing. When he left – he forgot his porn stash (or left it intentionally) and it had grown to pretty substantial proportions – girls with big butts, girls of different races – basically all the things I can’t be. I have no idea how big of an issue this became – but in combination with the infidelity – it seems like he really did begin to live a pretty separate life. And before anyone asks... .Our sex life was good – but less frequent than I would have liked - again due to that crazy schedule (additionally we had two young kids at that point).
5. The move. I was transferred to Iowa in 2004 and STBX came along. While I liked it there, it was never home and from the very beginning the mutual plan was eventually to move closer to family (particularly when we had kids). When the time came, and we decided to move closer to my family in California, I think STBX really, really didn’t want to move. He loved his job and all those friendships at work. But, he insisted that he remained on board.
6. I’m an introvert. Not only am I an introvert, but I’m a happy introvert. Obviously, I’m not wildly social, but I form a few lifelong friendships wherever I go. Being at work all day, around people, wears me out to some extent and I need to recharge. STBX claims to be an introvert as well. Honestly though, I think he’s fooling himself. In Iowa on his days off (when I was working), he would load D7 (who was younger then of course) into his truck and go “visiting” – first to the police station and then to the houses of other people he worked with. It’s possible that’s the life he really wants and he thinks I’m not compatible.
So, what did that all lead to? We made the decision in May 2012 to move to California. STBX came up with the plan that I would go first with the kids, while he stayed behind to sell the house. During that time he began an affair with OW1 (it might have started before I left – I don’t really know). In November 2012 he moved out to California. He was moody and irritable (probably in withdrawals from OW1), all of which I attributed to stress from the move and having to wait to get a job (all of his police credentials had to be updated). When I would ask – he confirmed that he was feeling stress from the move. He was distant and cold with me, but as soon as he pushed me a little too far, he would reel it in and become affectionate for a while. During this period, he went back to Iowa twice, ostensibly to testify at trials, but more likely to see her. In May of 2013 he got a job and he did seem to be quite a bit better. During all of this time he was still in contact with OW1. He got himself a PO box and she sent him mail there. I know, in retrospect that the PO box should have been a major tipoff, but he said he didn’t trust the community mailbox at our rental home, and, well, I trusted him. In January of 2014 I found a letter from OW1 in his truck – it didn’t scream affair, but it was odd enough that I asked him about it and he said “nooooooooooooooooooooo”, it was nothing like that. In about April of that year he started to withdraw again. Then, on July 21st, he texted me he would be home late from work. On the way home he got into a motorcycle accident. The whole next day was totally bizarre – he would only text me and claimed to be resting at his sergeant’s house. When I asked when I could pick him up, he insisted he couldn't be moved. At that point, I knew something was up (I actually was more afraid that he had been in some kind of drunken accident and lost his job). I saw him briefly the next day when he came home (I never saw who dropped him off), and I said something like “STBX, what is going on? I’m your wife, please tell me” and he was just evasive. I had to go to work, but he called me later that day to admit that he had the accident while leaving the other woman’s house (OW2). We agreed over the phone to try and save the marriage, but by the time I drove home a half an hour later he had cleared out his clothes and left me a note telling me he wanted a divorce, that he was a failure as a husband and father, that I could have everything, and that he would accept whatever time I would give him with the girls (and he has pretty much kept to that). He promptly moved in with OW, despite assurances to the contrary and then filed for divorce 3 months later, despite an agreement between the two of us that he wait for 6. Since then, he’s basically been in hiding, more or less.
You say I seem even keel, and that’s true, I am. Maybe STBX wants more excitement and drama. I can’t be that person.
BTW- there might have been more OWs - at this point I have no idea.
I'm baaaacckkk. I read your post yesterday but didn't get a chance to write until today. Now I'm happy I waited. Very detailed post mortem. I like it.
I think you did a great job with it. And my guess is that you're right. Personally, I don't see that any one of those should have been deal breakers by themselves. But aggregate? No wonder we're all here, right?
The one thing that I can see which might have tripped you up (without the benefit of willing counseling on his part) anyway is his view of the world and the introvert/extrovert observation. I say that because it would require HIM to be willing to change based on your perception and be willing to meet you half way. Hindsight. Yah, I know.
Don't underestimate your observation about his dark view of society. It's a problem with my cop friends. I tell them every so often that it's really tiring to hang around with people who expect others to disappoint them. My relationship with my dad when I was a teenager was definitely affected (negatively) by his overly exaggerated perception that 99% of the population were perps or perps in training. His distance from the day to day operations of law enforcement in retirement has done wonders for his overall attitude. He's far more inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt now. Back then? Not a snowball's chance in hell.
And the introvert/extrovert thing is something that requires compromise. Active compromise. I'm definitely an extrovert. But I find that in the past 7-8 years, I've embraced the introvert in me. My job takes care of a lot of the extroverted manifestations - donning a sales hat gives me access to new people, new ideas, the possibility of meeting them in person (traveling), and new conversations - and all of those things satisfy my extroverted need to connect. What used to be an appetizer for my personal life now exhausts me. So I spend my weekends holing up and staying close to my family or pursuing solo projects like painting furniture or making facial creams and scrubs. It's therapeutic to me, and I need it to recharge. Otherwise, I'm depressed and fatigued.
Maybe it's more about what is happening in my life (losing people to death) and my age (50+ has me steady in a state of evaluating what's worthwhile to me and what needs to go) and my attention to my own needs? I honestly don't know.
My next relationship will be with someone who accepts that I need this, and while I'm more than willing to compromise on doing more social things on the weekend, he'll simply have to let me have a day to devote to my own interests and needs. I don't know if I'd have had this chance in my marriage either. My XH is probably one of the most social people I know now. Kind of funny, since he was the one who ignored his friends when we were married. His Norwegian work ethic requires him to be productive at home when he's not doing stuff with friends. I respect it. But I just can't live with it anymore. It was the source of a lot of resentment for me (and him too) back then. I'd like to think it wouldn't be now, but who knows?
Getting back to you... just doing this kind of post mortem is healthy and will help you keep track of some of the things that might come up in the future. And a word to the wise (you ARE wise): maybe you'll find out that some of these things are deal breakers to you. It's good to know as you experience life and new relationships.
FTR, I think his notion that working on your marriage in Iowa is total BS. BUT... it's also telling. This mirrors my own experience. While we didn't move out of state, we moved out of the house we had built for us and customized to meet my request to 1) change school districts for our special needs child; and 2) to be closer to our jobs. I found out much, much later that he literally hated me for doing this, although like you, he always said he was 100% in. My mom wondered right after we separated, "do you think if you had stayed in your other house he might not have chosen this path?" I brushed it off until he actually fessed up years later. And like you, he never sat down with me and discussed pros and cons. But let me tell you the happy ending to that story. Our D21 played varsity volleyball all 4 years at the behemoth school with the good reputation. He was incredibly proud of her talents and intelligence that this school "exploits". He still is. And he has told me on more than one occasion that he's glad we moved to our school district for the girls. So scratch your head on that one.
Anyhoo, I'm pulling for you, r. You're a good egg.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
I find it interesting that moves became such major issues in both of our marriages. To me, its just a necessary part of life. I have asked myself if I had to do it all over again, would I move again. And honestly, this has been a great move for me and the girls. We're in a beautiful part of the country, excellent employment opportunities, very good schools and I cannot overstate how nice it has been to live near family. And if we hadn't moved - maybe this all would have happened anyway, possibly just later down the road.
You know what I can't help but be irritated by? Some of these other issues I contributed to - and I could have addressed them in a more positive and constructive way. But with the move? I did ask. I asked multiple times. I asked if he was ok with it, I asked for his opinion and if it was making him miserable. And all he did was reassure. So I feel an extra layer of betrayal on that one.
I thought more after my initial post and I do have to add a few more things.
I heard a radio program shortly after BD that said a stressful time for many marriages is after the birth of the second child. There's a lot of work with the first child of course, but it's also all new, full of novelty and firsts. Once the second one comes a long all of these things can become more of a grind. That was definitely the case for STBX. He was a fantastic helper when D7 was a baby - not so much with D3. And to make matters worse, D3 screamed like a banshee whenever he tried to hold her if I was in the room. She just had a clear preference for me. It upset him greatly. I don't blame him for that- it would have been hard for me to. But I did feel some resentment about it start to radiate in my direction. And you know - he's never bonded with her the way he has with D7.
And then there is OW1. She was a parole officer as well. She was married and was helping her husband through medical school with the assumption that once he graduated she wouldn't work any longer. He graduated, informed her there was an OW and divorced her. This happened about 2 months before we started the move here. So she was in a very needy vulnerable place, apparently so was STBX and that was a combustible combination. I know there were issues but sometimes I think that it was like a slow burning fire that we could have extinguished until gasoline got thrown on it. And once he started down that road- well, there's been a lot of guilt, shame and hostility. Even if he wanted to extricate himself somewhere along the way, I don't think he knew how. BTW - I try not to give too much headspace to STBX's affair partners. But I have to say that about the last thing I would do to seek solace right now is to insert myself into a situation where I would contribute to the destruction of someone else's marriage and family and I find it really distasteful that she did so.
Finally - I always felt like STBX put me on a pedestal which I was never comfortable with. We certainly had issues but I always felt secure and loved - right up until we figured out the move and he started the affair and things changed abruptly. There have been moments since BD, where I have actually thought I felt hatred coming from him (although not since I agreed to the divorce).
Tonight was a softball game. He bailed before the last inning was played. D7 cried her little eyes out when he left ("Why does Daddy have to go to his other girl?")Yes - these games are a snore and its kind of uncomfortable but it means a lot to her that we are there - would it kill him to stick it out for another twenty minutes? Things like that make me want to go medieval on him.
Betsey- I'm inspired that you were able to get to a positive place with your XH. From where I sit right now - its pretty hard to imagine.
Hi raliced, I don't have a lot of advice, but just wanted to say hi. I've been reading your last few posts with interest, I can relate to a lot of it. I've realized through this process that as similar as WAS sometimes seem to be, we all have our own unique paths to walk, especially after D it seems. You are doing well, my friend.
Nice words, Sunny, I was going to echo Raliced's point about getting to that place with her STBX that Betsey is with her XH. I just don't see it happening. He took everything I cared about and trashed it. The stuff I'm going through now trying to sort through the mess... I just don't see getting over that at all.
Me42, H40 D12, S8, S7 A revealed: 7/13 Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15
Hello, raliced. I was interested to read your diagnosis of the problems in your M. I could relate to many - particularly your perspectives on porn (I too thought I was being liberal by not making a big deal of it), the introvert side of things (though I've added "ambivert" to my vocabulary as a way to describe me), and the move. H and I moved back to my country 3.5 years ago and as I understand H intends to stay here. Not sure where I will end up, maybe his country ironically. Sometimes I wonder if the move might have actually prolonged things...like provided a bit of an escape and change of scenery for him.
Anyway, you ladies - raliced, Maybell and SunnyB (and Ahoy - haven't seen her lately?) - have been a feature of my journey since the beginning. Although I can't relate to the parental challenges you talk about on here (and so I don't post on your threads very often), know that I've found a lot of inspiration in the strength you show on here. You are such wonderful role models to your children.
H 37 Me 36 Together 15 years Married 5 years No kids BD Apr 2014 H moved out 2 Jun 2014
