The Journey Continues: Wayward Wife & LRT (4)

[Defacto]

I had a great day so far with the kids. We went to a local museum and gardens. The kids loved it!

I didn't hear anything from STBX until around 1pm. She called and texted immediately following the call to check on the kids. I didn't answer or reply. She called again about a half hour later. This time I answered.

The tenor of the call was business like, very matter of fact. STBX asked about my morning with the kids. I told her that the kids and I had a great time. There was an awkward silence where the small talk usually goes. STBX then said she might not have to work tonight due to low patient count but she said that she would pick up the kids in the morning either way. (It's mindreading but my hunch is that this a lie about STBX having to work at all tonight).

Then, STBX again mentioned doing something with the kids tomorrow. I didn't really respond to this other than by saying I had hoped to get a haircut tomorrow. STBX said to just let her know when I make my appointment, which I did by text.

I don't have any plans tomorrow during the day (other than the haircut) but I do plan on going out tomorrow night.

So my question is this, how should I handle the possibility of doing something together tomorrow as a family?

I gave STBX the possibility of joining the kids and I this morning but she passed and never gave a reason. It feels like a get out of jail free card for her if we do something tomorrow, like there was no consequences for her decision today. I would also feel kind of weak by just going along with something. I definitely don't want to be the one to plan anything.

However, I don't want to put the kids in the middle of this and force them to suffer as a result. D4 and S1 deserve to have time together with both of their parents.

[Defacto]

Also, STBX didn't volunteer anything about what she was up to all day yesterday, last night, or this morning. And I certainly didn't ask!

[HeavyD]

What is your parenting plan - you need to develop one if you don't have one already. Example would be 3 days with one parent, 3 days with the other etc...

It really helps to avoid miscommunication.

[Defacto]

Heavy D,
Thanks for the feedback. I totally agree we need a structured parenting plan. Right now, because my STBX works overnight and I work during the day, I watch the kids when she works and she has them when she's off from work.
I think part of me has resisted discussing a parenting plan with her because it felt related to a D. If we had a three days on, three days off type deal, I'd be worried about who would watch kids when STBX is working. Plus, right now, MIL fills in the gaps (like when I am at work and STBX is sleeping after work). It's all whacked out!

Any recommendations on my current deal for tomorrow? My current thought is to not ask about it but if STBX brings it up, I could say something like, "That's a possibility. What did you have in mind?"

[T384]

Defacto-

You really have come a long way but I think you're still 'stuck' and I really believe your W know she still has you on the rope.

Now that you know she is in contact with OM what are you going to do? What's your game plan now? Are you going to continue more of the same or really let her go?

Let me ask you this - if you turned back time and you went to the time you and W were dating and you found out she was seeing someone else, how would you react? Would you be pining over her? Or would you say I deserve better in my life?

I think you need a strong stance. Sandi advocates for the man to be a MAN. The attractive, independent guy your W knew that wouldn't put up with this sh!t.

You know your W is with OM and you still fill her in on what you're doing? I think it's time for more boundaries and less talk. Don't get me wrong. I think it's great you two can coparent and get along but I don't think there should be any family days. She has chosen another man ... So that cuts you from her life as her husband and as a family unit. The family dynamic has changed.

You don't have to be rude but you can be matter of fact still with a smile on your face and polite. She needs to feel what it's like to lose you because I don't think she feels that right now.

I made all the mistakes and many more. I wanted H to spend time with us as a family. I stupidly asked and got led on but it never happened. I asked knowing he was with someone else. It was stupid. When I stopped asking and stopped giving a you know what he noticed. I wasn't available and I didn't care if he showed up anymore.

I'm sorry for the 2x4s but I say all of this with love. I want you to be successful - whatever he outcome is if it is D this dynamic needs to change regardless.

Let her go. You will be happier I promise. Go out enjoy yourself and stop filling her in. Be mysterious.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

Heavy D,
Thanks for the feedback. I totally agree we need a structured parenting plan. Right now, because my STBX works overnight and I work during the day, I watch the kids when she works and she has them when she's off from work.
I think part of me has resisted discussing a parenting plan with her because it felt related to a D. If we had a three days on, three days off type deal, I'd be worried about who would watch kids when STBX is working. Plus, right now, MIL fills in the gaps (like when I am at work and STBX is sleeping after work). It's all whacked out!

Any recommendations on my current deal for tomorrow? My current thought is to not ask about it but if STBX brings it up, I could say something like, "That's a possibility. What did you have in mind?"

1. It sounds to me like your current situation has the kids mostly sleeping at your place. As far as the courts are concerned (and the IRS) where the children sleep is what counts as "custody". If they are sleeping mostly or always at your house this is a good deal for you and you might not want to rock the boat. It's a decent setup towards you arguing for and winning "primary" custody should the divorce case proceed and a custody dispute result.

2. I don't think you should ask her what her plans are. It's weak to let her dictate the plan. IF you are going to spend time together (and why not take more of her time with your children) then come up with an idea that your wife can tag along to. Have her following YOUR lead (or not, her choice to tag along or not):

Idea 1: Well there's this pottery place where kids and parents can make art tougher that I was considering taking DD4 to someday to make some stuff, how about we all go over there tomorrow and give it a shot.

Idea 2: Find a local little carnival. I live is a big city and you can find a carnival going on somewhere in town just about any weekend.

Idea 3: Just meet for lunch after your haircut; maybe Chuck e cheese.

Give wife short spurts of focused attention but then focus on your daughter and let her observe you. This is why you want a fun place with lots of distractions.

I wouldn't suggest driving together anywhere. Meet her (and the kids) there so you can make a timely exit.

Instead of an awkward goodbye...call for "family hug" and then leave without turning back (or just waving to your daughter).

Don't say you have somewhere to be or an appointment but look at your watch and make it seem like you are acting like you don't have somewhere to be...but really do have somewhere to be at a certain time.

Drive away the opposite direction from the direction you'd be expected to go home.

3. I'd drop the ticked off attitude towards her. Your marriage is dying and your wife is off in wayward la la land. If there is any hope for your marriage you need to be that lighthouse for her guiding her back to the marriage. Sure, she may not come back but you really don't know if she's seeing OM or just talking to him a bit on the phone. Being snippy with her only helps her justify and rationalize divorcing you and feeling OK about that decision. She said she was having second thoughts. Some way wards just say that and do nothing whereas others actually begin down a slow painful path towards recovery. You don't know but being a great guy is what you are better at. It's more attractive and more likely to make her think harder about what she's doing...MAYBE....no expectations.

4. OM's wife: Text "Sorry for bothering you again. I know they probably told you I was this angry vindictive and maybe even abusive husband that your husband just had to support my wife in leaving but please understand that people in affairs ALL say that. It's a lie. I am not abusive or controlling in the least. I simply love my family and I'm fighting for my marriage. You say you just want to "move on" and I wish it were that easy. Neither of us can do that if they are continuing their affair. The reality of the situation is we need to work together just a little to make sure neither of us are getting played. I'd simply like to speak with you to confirm some information and compare notes as I don't trust sending texts because I can't be sure it is you receiving it. If you are uncomfortable about this maybe three way in your mother or sister and we can all help make some sense of this situation."

[Defacto]

Defacto-

You really have come a long way but I think you're still 'stuck' and I really believe your W know she still has you on the rope.

Now that you know she is in contact with OM what are you going to do? What's your game plan now? Are you going to continue more of the same or really let her go?

Let me ask you this - if you turned back time and you went to the time you and W were dating and you found out she was seeing someone else, how would you react? Would you be pining over her? Or would you say I deserve better in my life?

I think you need a strong stance. Sandi advocates for the man to be a MAN. The attractive, independent guy your W knew that wouldn't put up with this sh!t.

You know your W is with OM and you still fill her in on what you're doing? I think it's time for more boundaries and less talk. Don't get me wrong. I think it's great you two can coparent and get along but I don't think there should be any family days. She has chosen another man ... So that cuts you from her life as her husband and as a family unit. The family dynamic has changed.

You don't have to be rude but you can be matter of fact still with a smile on your face and polite. She needs to feel what it's like to lose you because I don't think she feels that right now.

I made all the mistakes and many more. I wanted H to spend time with us as a family. I stupidly asked and got led on but it never happened. I asked knowing he was with someone else. It was stupid. When I stopped asking and stopped giving a you know what he noticed. I wasn't available and I didn't care if he showed up anymore.

I'm sorry for the 2x4s but I say all of this with love. I want you to be successful - whatever he outcome is if it is D this dynamic needs to change regardless.

Let her go. You will be happier I promise. Go out enjoy yourself and stop filling her in. Be mysterious.

T0,
I sincerely appreciate the constructive criticism. It means a ton because I know it comes from experience and success.

You are right that this week has been tough for me in the detachment department. I've definitely backslid in this area. I'm off from work so I have a lot of extra time on my hands that I have not used as productively as I could have. And, you are right, I definitely deserve better. It should make me angry and even more resolute to know she still continues to engage with OM.

In regards to family days, they used to be a weekly occurrence. But since BD in early January, we've done something resembling a family day only once, and that was a few months ago. My motivation for inviting STBX this time was simply to try something different. Honestly, I was leery of even inviting her and a little relieved when she declined.

In response to sharing too much information with STBX, I'm assuming you are referring to my personal life. As their mother, I feel she still has a right to ask how and what they are doing to some extent. As you can read from my posts, this pretty much is all we talk about whenever it is that we talk.

STBX doesn't always ask what I'm doing but I try to be mysterious when she asks. I know I can do a better job though. I usually start with being vague but will reveal nonessential details if she continues to inquire further. I try to walk the line of not lying but also not coming across as childish by pretending like I'm hiding something from my parents. Suggestions and advice on tricks to being mysterious without sounding curt or silly accepted and appreciated!

Thanks again for the 2x4s!

[Defacto]

2. I don't think you should ask her what her plans are. It's weak to let her dictate the plan. IF you are going to spend time together (and why not take more of her time with your children) then come up with an idea that your wife can tag along to. Have her following YOUR lead (or not, her choice to tag along or not)

Thanks. Good advice, GB. IF STBX asks, I will say that the kids and I are headed to a local Green Market in the morning and she is welcome to join us if she wants to. If not, I will drop the kids off at her place when we are done.

3. I'd drop the ticked off attitude towards her. Your marriage is dying and your wife is off in wayward la la land. If there is any hope for your marriage you need to be that lighthouse for her guiding her back to the marriage. Sure, she may not come back but you really don't know if she's seeing OM or just talking to him a bit on the phone. Being snippy with her only helps her justify and rationalize divorcing you and feeling OK about that decision. She said she was having second thoughts. Some way wards just say that and do nothing whereas others actually begin down a slow painful path towards recovery. You don't know but being a great guy is what you are better at. It's more attractive and more likely to make her think harder about what she's doing...MAYBE....no expectations.

Is it that obvious? I know I was being stern on here but I had hoped that it didn't translate in my conversations with STBX. But, I'm sure it did slip in a bit. Anything that stood out to you so I can correct it immediately going forward?

4. OM's wife: Text "Sorry for bothering you again. I know they probably told you I was this angry vindictive and maybe even abusive husband that your husband just had to support my wife in leaving but please understand that people in affairs ALL say that. It's a lie. I am not abusive or controlling in the least. I simply love my family and I'm fighting for my marriage. You say you just want to "move on" and I wish it were that easy. Neither of us can do that if they are continuing their affair. The reality of the situation is we need to work together just a little to make sure neither of us are getting played. I'd simply like to speak with you to confirm some information and compare notes as I don't trust sending texts because I can't be sure it is you receiving it. If you are uncomfortable about this maybe three way in your mother or sister and we can all help make some sense of this situation."

This whole situation is troubling. Why would OM's W reach out only to go back into hiding? I'm worried about sending such a long and detailed text especially based on her lack of response in the past and not knowing who really is sending the texts. However, I feel like OM's W could really be instrumental in destroying the A because it looks like OM isn't heading down the D path in his own MR.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

She has chosen another man

In my experience, this isn't USUALLY the case.

She has chosen confusion. She has chosen to stay undecided about everything another day. She's not sure what she wants. She may know she can't imagine not talking to OM another minute or day or they may be wrapping things up and having dangerous "closure" contact (dangerous because often the affair just reignites). She also may know she's having trouble imagining a life without Defacto and she doesn't like the idea that he may or may not be dating someone himself. She may have split emotions about the thought that defacto could be dating someone else because on one hand it means he's now ALSO a an adulterer (less shame/guilt for her) while also Defacto is moving on, accepted the inevitable divorce and is better off without her but on the other, she doesn't want some other woman around her kids or taking her man.

All mind reading and really difficult to pinpoint. Waywards are all over the place so part of detaching is really not worrying about it or listening to it. You can't argue with a wayward or teach a wayward so it's really just about listening and being around them as much as you can. Which is why I keep encouraging Defacto to spend time with her, invite her places, without being needy or overly concerned if she says "no" (like she has the last few days).

Defacto - don't expect or even act concerned about why she's cancelled or not available. Don't ask her to report in. Make the presumption that she'd rather be with you than anybody else (self confidence wise because she'd be a fool not to want to be with you) and if she doesn't show or want to come...her loss. No expectations. Simply tell her she's missing out on a lot of fun and good times. Being around you should be fun. Nothing serious. If serious conversation ensues it's because SHE started it. Then you hyper focus on her and her needs, listening intently, validating and mirroring her until the conversation drags...then go back to having fun.

I've also been thinking about a response to the next time she says something like "I'm having second thoughts". Perhaps an alternative would be something like "having 'second thoughts' is a nice comment that you keep making but what does it mean? Am I supposed to beg you to choose me? Am I supposed to be excited by the comment? I just don't know what to do with that comment so I guess I'm left with asking you "what's your plan?" and if you don't have one, would you be open to discussing a plan of specific actions you could take to make me receptive towards actually believing these "second thoughts" are more than just empty words."

Your Plan:
1. No Contact with OM.

a. Send him a "no contact" letter
b. Send OM's wife an apology letter promising to never interfere with their marriage and family again
c. Pursue changing jobs completely away from OM (this doesn't have to happen overnight but actions and progress should be spelled out specifically)

2. Put filing divorce on hold until Fall, at the least. (NEITHER of you are committing to recovery right now, it's simply agreeing to delay the filing of the divorce until much later this year.

3. Moving back in together by the end of June or July (it's really hard to recover while separated but at the same time it might be really hard on DD4 if she moves home and then back out shortly thereafter. It'd be nice to know you are actually recovering versus just delaying the divorce before she moved back home. Thus, you may leave this off the table up front. She's at her parents so it's not like you have to be trust that OM isn't sneaking into some apartment in the middle of the night.

4. Commit to spending as much time together as possible with AND without the children.

[Bob723]

Also, STBX didn't volunteer anything about what she was up to all day yesterday, last night, or this morning. And I certainly didn't ask!

Hi Defacto,

Perfect, good for you! Detach, detach, detach.

Your friend,

Bob