This discussion was written over a year ago but is still very relevant and timely, especially for those newbies who are now struggling with this issue. Feel free to read and ask questions about this topic. Holly 4/17/02

Well I've been buggin Debm about this but truthfully this boundary thing is a toughy. I had an incident today that I will share later when I get some time, about this very subject.
So get your thinking caps on and let's work together on setting healthy boundaries. Bring your issues and lets work them out right here. Or bring your solutions and enlighten us. Lets talk about what worked and what didn't work in setting healthy boundaries. Let's learn to set boundaries that take care of ourselves so we don't feel taken advantaged of, so we don't have to overfunction. I'm struggling with this and working on putting it into practice.(That's what I did today and my H threatened me and hung up on me) Whenever you change lots of stuff comes up to trip you up. And most people don't like the new you so they react in a way that has you running back to the old way. I'll get back to you but until then, your thoughts please. Kansha

[ April 16, 2002, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: Kansha ]

Wow: looks like the title of my thread sent everyone running. LOL

As an over functioner I am trying to do a 180 on this subject because I see that it directly contributed to my H's MLC.

How do I stop running in there and catching the football everytime he and anyone else throws it?

It's a knee jerk reaction, oh, football, put arms up and catch before I've even realized it. It is what CC is saying that these MLCers set us up so we had to step in there. MY words not hers.

So in my quest for not automatically putting my arms up and catching the ball, yesterday, after I'd noticed that I had done just that I became pissed about it.

Here's how it went. Jan. 16th is the deadline for paying quarterly income tax if you are self-employed. We had just been to accountants where he had explained this to my H and said we need to write 2 checks, one to the state and one to the Feds. Well many of you know my H opened up his own accounts that I have no access too. So he has to write the checks. So yesterday morning I put the forms, which were already filled out, with some envelopes on his desk and let him know that I had done that. He said he doesn't have time to do it. I said well I can't do it because I don't have access to the tax account. I'm racing out the door to take the kids to school, by the way. This is not the time to discuss this and I was not on my guard for a heads up about that football being thrown at me. So he says I can't do it, I work, I'll transfer the money into your account. I said I don't appreciate dealing with this at the last minute, he said it isn't last minute he had no time to think about it because he is working on his studio(organizing it). He had half a day off yesterday and could've done it then, I said. Anyway the upshot was I was in a hurry so I didn't say no to his transferring the money into my account.
I mean before MLC I would've done it in a heartbeat, no problem. But know the guy doesn't bother to talk to me but I'm suppose to just pick up the ball whenever he drops it? NO SIR!!!!! My Therapist says I need to developed a little b@tch genes.

So I talked it over yesterday with my counselor and told her how upset I was that he is dumping stuff in my lap. And I came up with a way to dump it back.
I called him up and said I don't feel right about writing a tax check from my household bills account. It doesn't feel clean to me. IT feels fuzzy. If he is going to handle the tax money he should pay it because I don't want to be accused of mishandling it. So will you please take the money back out of my Household bills account and pay it from your own accounts. He said he won't get to it until Sat. I said whatever you have to do. He said well than I'll just take the amount of the penalty out of the money I give you then. I said nothing but that I wasn't going to handle it and he hung up on me. He was nasty and retaliatory about it. I never called him back or tried to explain myself further which I normally would have done both.

When he got home last night he didn't say a word and was pleasant. He's probably waiting to bring it up in our therapy session which by the way yesterday he called me while I am in my art class and says, did we have a session today? Yes, well I can't make it and I don't have XXXXX's number. Like I'm suppose to handle that one. I say I can switch and take my private session yesterday and we'll have our joint one on Thursday and you can take my private one on Thursday as well. Momma Kansha to the rescue. It is insidious.

So I am trying to catch the times that I do it(jump right in there) but it is exhausting and his reaction is mean. Well that was yesterday.

kansha-- i know what you mean.

i too am always there to catch my family when ever they have a problem.
it is called enabling. we enable them to control us by appearing needy. i am so nice that i will do anything for anyone in my family.

we need to stop this-- i don't really know how, except to detach from those we love and from our H's so that they know that we are not always available ot them at their beck and call.

i have gotton better about saying yes to outside things since i have turned 40, and i am also not afraid to share my opinions with the outside world, cause frankly, i don't give a d@@m how they perceive me as much. but i do care about what my family and close friends think of me, so i'm always there to catch everyone when they falter.

Kansha,

I just got on this thread--though I haven't done any boundary setting myself, so I don't have anything to contribute. Well, I did move the dog cages to the garage so I can clean my kitchen floor, if that counts

Just a practical question--would it have been any more difficult for your H to have written the tax checks than it was to transfer the money? I know, it is still easier to dump on you!!

One thing I have been trying to do is to let people help me. I've always had that "I can do it all attitude," and I've realized during all this that my H doesn't like it, or maybe it makes him feel inferior (which he is, but that's just between us--just kidding). Anyway, last Sunday before older D returned to college, I had fixed a big dinner & invited him. I went downstairs for something after we finished eating, and when I came back up, H had run a sinkful of dishwater and was doing the pots & pans! I just thanked him and offered to wipe the counters--where in the past, I would have said, I'll do that or whatever. So--I'm trying not to "overfunction" so much, if not to set boundaries (yet).

I will keep up on this thread, though, in case someone out there has some good advice!!

Have a good evening,

Deb

Nursemom: I do know about enabling. I think that sometimes those labels are dangerous. In a healthy relationship there would've been give and take and our wish to do for those we love would've been met with more give and take. So I don't think that are basic nature is bad it just didn't work in our relationships.

I think the first thing is to notice when we unconsciously jump in there with out thinking. After we are aware of that we can start to actually NOT do it. I do agree that since I've been in my 40's I'm not such a people pleaser to the rest of the world. But I still love to do for my family and friends.

Deb: Way to go on letting your H help , that is part of it I think, feeling that we deserve their help and feeling comfortable letting them do things.
Yes, It was easier for my H to transfer the money(it's all computerized, just a click of a few buttons.) Vs. writing out the checks, addressing the envelopes and getting them to the post office on time. They are still sitting on his desk. I'm going to have to sit on my fingers and keep my mouth shut about this.
Keep up the good work ! I hope you are feeling better than you were.

How do we set boundaries and still be nice and be someone they want to be with?

As for me, I think that as a guy, I was born a natural fixer. Did it for my W all time, now that I look back on it, and I know now that it both pissed her off, and enabled her to not deal with things. I would give in to things I wasn't comfortable with, and ended up building up a lot of resentment.

I think that "compromising" is a bunch of crap, 'cuz it's just basically 2 people giving-in and agreeing to something that neither of them want. I've tried it, and it seems that neither party is willing to fully support the decision, and you end up worse than when you started.

OK, so here I go with my books again (spending a lot of the separation time reading!). Try "I Don't Have To Make Everything All Better", by Gary & Joy Lundberg. Subtitled "Six Practical Principles That Empower Others to Solve Their Own Problems While Enriching Your Relationships". Great book. Covers a lot about validation, listening, and setting boundaries. Regarding boundaries, it says "Personal boundaries are your value system in action. In setting effective boundaries, you must be kind, gentle, respectful, and firm. The first three make the last one work."

It's really helped with me not making other people's problems into my problems. Been bad with that most my life. It's kind of hard at first, but gets easier with time. As much as you think it will piss people off when you stop dealing with their problems, if you use all the validation and listening tools, they're not even aware that you set your limits.

It's a great feeling when you can finely say "no" to someone, and not feel bad about it.

DebM is SO right about letting people help you. I've always been bad about it, and am not sure if it was pride or low self-esteem. When you don't let people help, you can throw out an opportunity for people to show they care about you by wanting to help you. "I don't need you, I can do it on my own". SLAP!!

well, Kansha, as you know, I am in a very different place than you as my H doesn't even live in this house anymore and hasn't...since last Feb..and says he's not coming back (ok that was in August and yet he is still here alllthe time.)

But, I am learning how to NOT overfunction....even with my kids..and that has been a feat.

But I think I am happier and so are the kids.

Now, My suggestion about setting boundaries is to do it in as little words as you can...lovingly.....often with the words they have used on you....and then change the subject.

My H has been pretty indifferent these days, but it has certainly helped my life move forward by setting boundaries.

Less words are better. Don't explain or try to rationalize...they won't get it anyway. Just calmly set them and move to another subject.

Kansha,
I think Magic has the right idea. As little words as possible

I've been thinking about this subject for about a month, in case my h decides to come back home. I know I've been doing most of the giving for the past few years, but probably more so becasue of MLC. I talked about it with my counselor last week and feel if I were to gradually pass the torch on things, it *may* be met with less resistance. I just had this horrible habit of automatically doing things for h,mainly because he is such a procrastinator and actually, he would delegate these chores to me.

I think the problem now is we are in autopilot and it's going to take some time to break this habit and feel comfortable about it.

Great feed back!

Jamesjohn: I really don't think one can have a successful marriage without someone giving over about something some of the time. I guess if you mean, by compromise, that it's something that neither party wants but meets in the middle somewhere, if that's what you mean, I think you are right. But sometimes one or the other has to give in. couples are are not going to agree on everything. I think that is an unrealistic expectation. I know my H thinks it's a personal affront to him if I don't blindly agree with everything he does or says. If I object or state my point of view he seems to be threatened by it. He doesn't want to be opposed.

That book you are recommending sounds perfect. I am learning how to be kind and gentle when I set my boundaries because it appears that the only way I have been able to set boundaries so far is to be extra b&tchy to overcompensate for my inability to set boundaries. Not good. I'm working on a nice pleasant even tone. Not my tone of steel that I've had to use for reinforcement sake.

I am glad you are doing so well with setting boundaries and thanks for your insights!

Magic: Setting boundaries is setting boundaries whether it is the in your face kind of training or the once a day kind. We are all making strides and are on our own particular brand of this journey. I too am working on this with my kids as well as my H. What I think makes it especially difficult with my H is I'm trying to repair, and restore a relationship as well as change it at the same time so that it can be a healthier relationship. It gets so confusing.

Your H is acting indifferent, mine too, but do you really know that he IS indifferent?

Thank you for your words of wisdom. So smart! You are absolutely right, less is best and I will try to remember that as I am juggling to not catch that football(picture me running around trying not to catch the hot potato) .

Sting: I really think you are smart to think about this because If they come back we will have to deal with this. I hear Deb's challenges and I say that'll be me if I don't change. (I mean that in the most loving way possible Deb, I just mean about how frustrated you are sometimes and rightly so) You are right about the auto pilot and that is why I said the first thing to do is to observe ourselves.

Thanks for all of your input. I'm going to be working on this one for a long time to come whether my H and I get back together or not.

[This message has been edited by Kansha (edited 01-17-2001).]

Kansha,
You're right about the give-and-take thing. Nobody's going to agree on everything, and who the hell would want to. What a boring life! One of my biggest problems is that I was always right. I was SO damn right that I'm sitting here at work, posting on this board, getting ready to wash my clothes at the laundromat, then go home to an empty apartment. There, I taught HER a lesson, didn't I?!?!

Really, I thought, before, that I was a good listener, but I now realize that I wasn't. When we talked about problems, I was busy seeing things from my perspective, and coming up with great solutions to "fix" the problem. I never really listened to the emotions or needs she was expressing, and really try to understand her perspective on the situation. We both lost the advantage of each others wisdom.

Picture the scene of a car fender-bender. There can 7 different witnesses, and when the police talk to them, they'll hear 7 different versions of what happened. None of them are necessarily wrong, there are just 7 different views of what happened. Real wisdom comes from being able to take into account all these different perspectives, and from them, find the truth and answers. (Isn't that kind of what we do here on this board?)

I always blamed my W of being too defensive when I tried to talk to her (well, she WAS, damn it!!), but I can now see things I could have done to help prevent that. Nobody likes to be opposed, and I think that may be one boundary that we're all born with. I think that the more we respect other people's boundaries, the more they'll respect ours.

This is just a "different perspective" on the situation!

[This message has been edited by Jamesjohn (edited 01-17-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Jamesjohn (edited 01-17-2001).]