where do I begin?

[twinmom]

So sometime in mid March my H hit rock bottom. Like "wtf has my life come to" kinda thing. He started seeing an IC that specializes in addiction, he did so without me even knowing. He has told me numerous times he doesn't want a divorce but will let me go if that's what I choose. For the past few months I have seen him make some huge changes (without me asking/even giving verbal indication I still wanted our marriage)

He no longer talks to me about his family/pressures me or makes me feel like the "bad guy" in situations with his family.

He makes it a point to tell me how much he respects me for staying at home and taking care of the kids AND bringing in an income.

He talks about work, not just saying "everything's great" but actually talks about what's going on.

He has actually shared his fears with me, this is something he always kept to himself and never showed vulnerability.

He asks to spend time with me and the kids BUT respects my decision when I have said I wanted alone time with them. Or just time to myself. There is no longer this feeling of "he got his way again"

He has asked me, "is there anything I can do to make this up to you and not loose you and our family?"

I'm cautious, it's only been two months tops that he has been seeing the IC. But in that time he has stopped being "pushy" and really started respecting my space/wishes. No more kissing my forehead and although he stays here most nights he doesn't grab a pillow/blanket without asking me if I'm ok with it.

The nights he has ended up in bed with me have been because I initiated it (why do I have to enjoy sex so much?)


He has offered for me to look at his phone any time I want. A NC letter seems pointless as SHE ended it with him (almost a year ago)

Any thing I am missing/should look for? Is this the time for me to look back at my initial 180's and make sure they have become habit? We have been in limbo/weird roommate zone for so long I feel unsure of everything.

[Sotto]

Hi Twin, it sounds as though your H is very much trying to make things work in your M. Has that been a big change around since mid March then? It sounds as though you are still treading a little cautiously, which I can understand if it is a recent turn around.

Have you guys both positively decided that you are both 110% in and that you want to make the M succeed together? I can't recall from previously, but have you been to MC together at all? You say that there is still a limbo situation, is that because you remain unsure?

Sorry - twenty questions! It sounds like there has been lots of recent progress though. And it's good that your H has started seeing an IC of his own volition, and is talking more openly. It sounds as though you are headed in the right direction, but it is relatively early days and you are still cautious. What would it take for you to feel comfortable to move forward from 'room mate' zone?

Sorry to ask so many questions!

T :-)

[twinmom]

Yes, the change in attitude is very different for him. For the first few months after OW kicked him out he slept on my couch and cried/texted/pinned for her. He would randomly show me attention/affection but it was clear I was plan xyz......

Then I finally stood up for myself and kicked him out. He never hit rock bottom just used my desire for help (and my desire to keep my family together) to "worm" his way back to staying here and things got roommate weird..

We did that for a while then he wanted our marriage one day and the next he wouldn't. BIG time roller coaster.

FINALLY that ended when I was able to detach and really treat him like a roommate. I don't know if that's what did it or something else but it was like a lightning bolt. It was like the movie "a Christmas Carol" where he sees his mistakes and then sees the future if he doesn't shape up.

Yes, he saw an IC/marriage therapist before and that ended in disaster.

I don't know where to begin. What do I ask of him? How long does he need to prove himself? So many questions I don't even begin to know what to do.

[unbidden]

TW, How do you feel about your H right now? What is it that you really want?

[twinmom]

TW, How do you feel about your H right now? What is it that you really want?

I feel like I don't know how to put the bad memories side. The things he said, I don't know how to understand WHY he said things if he didn't mean it.

I know I still love him. I guess my problem is I am still trying to understand WHY the affair happened broken down into individual actions.
I think I have a hard time comprehending addiction and know that I have read addicts will lie, cheat, steal, do all kinds of crazy things for their addiction but do they really believe the lies they tell?

I have a hard time accepting that my H (in his mind) saw OW as this wonderful mother, GREAT person and overall had very few flaws. All while viewing me VERY negatively. And some of the things he viewed me negatively for she did and he was ok with. For example smoking, I would smoke randomly when I was stressed (NOT while pregnant) and OW smokes every day (She is pregnant now and I saw her smoking while driving)....

It's just torture to think about those kinds of things.

I guess I just want to find a way to make sure this doesn't happen again but I don't know how.

[alpha99]

Hi Twinmom,

this would seem a very positive turn of events for you. You say you still love him, and I'm sure your emotions are all over the place about exactly what you want, but now is the time to decide exactly what you want. You have a H who appears finally ready to begin undoing the damage he has caused. Should you want your marriage to work then over time you are going to have to work out how to forgive him for his actions. This won't be easy.

The only thing I can suggest is to really think about what you want, how likely your H's actions are likely to last, and then set out to him some ground rules/boundaries over what you'd expect from him and from a R going forward.

good luck!

[CaliGuy]

TW, How do you feel about your H right now? What is it that you really want?

I feel like I don't know how to put the bad memories side. The things he said, I don't know how to understand WHY he said things if he didn't mean it.

I know I still love him. I guess my problem is I am still trying to understand WHY the affair happened broken down into individual actions.
I think I have a hard time comprehending addiction and know that I have read addicts will lie, cheat, steal, do all kinds of crazy things for their addiction but do they really believe the lies they tell?

I have a hard time accepting that my H (in his mind) saw OW as this wonderful mother, GREAT person and overall had very few flaws. All while viewing me VERY negatively. And some of the things he viewed me negatively for she did and he was ok with. For example smoking, I would smoke randomly when I was stressed (NOT while pregnant) and OW smokes every day (She is pregnant now and I saw her smoking while driving)....

It's just torture to think about those kinds of things.

I guess I just want to find a way to make sure this doesn't happen again but I don't know how.

I could and very well may have written every single red lettered word here.

I am not caught up on your sitch but this post was like a thunerbolt as I struggle with the same thing.

I have begun to process it, your H has asked .. what can he do... now is the time to figure out what you need, day to day, what you need for closure, and both of you must realize this wound will take time and tenderness to heal, you both need to repair it.

About a month ago my W was over at my place, we were talking and she brought up that I stated I wanted mo more secrets ... over the past couple years just felt like she was living 2 separate lives, granted our M was not all roses, but it was not "Go and find a OP for the fix" bad either. So she told me she would be open and honest, there was a question in my head about how it started, knowing this guy was not going to repeat that ever again.... I thought it might be a 4 year thing, turns out much much shorter, she timelined it for me, and it meshed with the times I had ... I believed her, that was a step.

Have you thought about MC together>? I seen I think it was Bond state that when it gets to a point MC is required, we have alot of hurts and issues that need to be adressed, and its not something you would want to tackle by yourselves.

Regardless it appears your H is putting himself out there, thats scary, you may want to think about what you really need and actually communicate this to him to start building that lost trust back.

[unbidden]

TW, I don't think that there are any hard and fast answers except to realize that it's all projection, what he thought of her or you changes because our amygdala gets fired up and we create a story around it. None of it was actually true. It was just a perception that changed based upon his state. The most helpful thing I did was to just realize I was never going to understand what happened in my R but that I could choose to forgive, and so I did. It was so incredibly freeing. I think I may have sent you MWD's article on forgiveness before but in case I didn't I'm pasting it here again. It really is the answer, I think.

Forgiveness Is a Gift You Give Yourself

By Michele Weiner-Davis

Are you someone who walks around feeling angry with your spouse or loved one much of the time? Do you have a little inner voice that constantly reminds you of all of his or her wrongdoings? Have you become expert at remembering all the minute details of past injustices just so that you can keep score? If this describes you at all, you better read what I'm about to say and take it to heart.

Lack of forgiveness imprisons you. It takes its toll on your physical and emotional health. It keeps you stuck in the deepest of relationship ruts. No matter how justified you feel about your point of view regarding your partner's insensitive behavior, you still are miserable. When you wake up each morning, a gray tint shadows your life. You walk around with a low-grade depression. You can't feel joy because you're too busy being angry or feeling disappointed.

In the face of these fairly obvious disadvantages, you hang on to your belief that, since you feel let down, you must not "give in." To you, giving in means forgiving, letting go, making peace. To do so, would be tantamount to giving up your soul. So, you keep your distance. You interact in perfunctory ways, never allowing your partner to step over the emotional line you've drawn. And though the distance often feels intolerable, forgiveness is not on your short list of solutions to your dilemma.

I have worked with so many couples who say they want to heal their relationships. And yet, when they're offered the tools, they can't seem to move forward. These are the couples who, instead of finding effective ways to get beyond blame, continue to repeat their mantra, "Our problems are your fault and you must pay." As long as they maintain this mindset, they are doomed to failure. How very sad. Even sadder are their children who, on a day-by-day basis observe their parents being "right" but "miserable." What lessons are they learning about love?

If any of this strikes a chord with you (and you wouldn't be reading this if it didn't), you need to internalize that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. Letting go of resentment can set you free. It can bring more love and happiness into your life. It opens the door to intimacy and connection. It makes you feel whole. Forgiving others takes strength, particularly when you feel wronged, but the fortitude required to forgive pales in comparison to the energy necessary to maintain a sizable grudge. The person most hurt by holding out or blaming is YOU, no matter what the circumstances.

"All this sounds good," you tell yourself, "but how can I ever forget what my partner did to me?" Good question. You don't! Forgiveness is not the same as forgetting. You will probably always remember the particular injustice(s) that drove you into your corner. But what will happen is that when you forgive, the intense emotions associated with the event(s) begin to fade. You will feel happier, lighter, more loving. And these renewed positive feelings won't go unnoticed. Others will be drawn to you.

Just keep in mind that forgiveness isn't a feeling. It is a decision. You decide that you are going to start tomorrow with a clean slate. Even if it isn't easy, you make the determination that the alternative is even harder, and that you are going to do what you must to begin creating a more positive future.

So promise yourself, that no matter what the reason, you will not go another day blaming your partner and feeling lonely. Make peace. Make up. Make love. I promise you that the benefits of deciding to forgive go far beyond anything you can picture in your mind's eye at the moment. Your decision to forgive will create a ripple effect of exponential changes in your life.

[twinmom]

Thank you, I struggle with forgiveness. I think I need to read this every day.

[Sotto]

Hi Twin, I think forgiveness is difficult and is a choice and a process, and we make progress and we backslide. As others have said, we all need to forgive in order to truly heal. Some of us may be lucky enough to forgive and heal with our S and others may do it alone. But either way, we need to find it within us in order to live a healthy and full life.

It sounds as though you are making progress, because you are thinking about it and recognising it is hard for you and taking advice. All of that is positive, and you won't get there over night. But, know that it is possible for all of us to reach a place of forgiveness, even for things that have hurt us a great deal.

Keep posting and take care (((Twin)))

[twinmom]

Thank you toots!

I noticed that when I am having a rough day with the kids or anything else is going wrong I tend to think about the negative stuff more. An overwhelming day with the kids turns into "hmmmmm must have been easy for OW to be so laid back and easy going SHE was only raising two kids and they could take care of themselves..... SHE didn't have twin toddlers and an infant all day"

I LOVE my children but during the affair H didn't give me ANY slack or understanding of the stress that comes with twin toddlers.

I guess when I start to have a bad day I start to think about how critical my H has been about me and try to justify in my mind I didn't do anything wrong.

Not thinking about all the double standards I had for the last few years has been my main goal. (It is ok for his family to drink but I can't have a glass of wine)
His dad went to rehab today (I think it's like the 8th or 9th time)

[TenBook]

Twinmom. I can't believe that you raised your 2 toddlers and an infant in such circumstances. I wish you strength.

That criticism is pure nonsense. He's just angry and "spewing", none of that is meant to be constructive (as in his mind). It's just spew. Spew borne of an angry man who is really angry at himself.

[Wonka]

Twin,

Have you ever thought about going away for a long weekend and leave kids for H to take care of by himself? He really needs to see what that really looks like for real.

[twinmom]

Twin,

Have you ever thought about going away for a long weekend and leave kids for H to take care of by himself? He really needs to see what that really looks like for real.

That's a wonderful idea! As soon as I am done nursing I think I will plan that. Lilly turns one in less than a month so maybe I will plan something for the end of July.

[zew]

Lilly turns one in less than a month

Seems like yesterday. Makes me realize how long we've been here.

But certainly not for naught. We've watched you become a momma bear who is now very sure of what you need.

[twinmom]

Lilly turns one in less than a month

Seems like yesterday. Makes me realize how long we've been here.

But certainly not for naught. We've watched you become a momma bear who is now very sure of what you need.

It does feel like yesterday. I often wonder about people like MDU.... How is she, why did she suddenly stop posting? There was also a man, can't remember the screen name, who has a son with autism. He was possibly moving. I haven't seen an update from him lately.
I know exactly what my struggles are but I am having a very hard time breaking bad habits and letting go.

We leave for Disney in 10 days and honestly I don't really want to go. I don't want tension to ruin the vacation and I don't know how to let go of some anger I have right now.

[twinmom]

my 180's that still need attention....

Letting go of past anger when I am upset about something else. Like yesterday, my oldest got in trouble at school. He STUPIDLY googled "condom on a stick" on a school computer. (Catholic school) ummmmmmm NOT the brightest thing to do kid! So I got a phone call from the principal and he got one day out of school suspension. I was upset and ALL the bad memories of H and his family judging my parenting came flooding back. I was emotional and angry/resentful at H even though yesterday's incident had NOTHING to do with him. It just brought back the bad memories. We didn't fight but I know I treated him differently yesterday.

[Sotto]

Hi Twin, I'm sorry to hear about your son - doubtless, he'll learn from that one! It's good that you recognise some of this and see where your train of thought goes - shifting to a time when you felt others were judging your parenting.

I guess the internal intervention would be good before the above crosses into anger and resentment at your H. It sounds like for you that when something challenging happens, instead of just dealing with that challenging thing as a stand alone item - this is what is happening and I need to respond today - it gets linked to past stuff.

I think we all get flashbacks of how awful it was at the time. I guess if we can recognise and process them as that and only that, we've pretty much cracked it. But it's a shame if we continue to let them colour new things that are happening today.

Twin, it sounds like you might benefit from some support on this. I cant recall, are you seeing an IC at all? Or might there be some reading you can do on this. Essentially, it seems to be about processing and managing to release some of the negative things from the past. You can't change the fact that they happened, but you can work on the fact that they cause you pain in the present.

Nothing else helpful to add I'm afraid - other than I'm sure you'll get there with persistence and patience.

(((Twin)))

[Painter]

I feel like I don't know how to put the bad memories side. The things he said, I don't know how to understand WHY he said things if he didn't mean it.

I know I still love him. I guess my problem is I am still trying to understand WHY the affair happened broken down into individual actions.
I think I have a hard time comprehending addiction and know that I have read addicts will lie, cheat, steal, do all kinds of crazy things for their addiction but do they really believe the lies they tell?

I have a hard time accepting that my H (in his mind) saw OW as this wonderful mother, GREAT person and overall had very few flaws. All while viewing me VERY negatively. And some of the things he viewed me negatively for she did and he was ok with. For example smoking, I would smoke randomly when I was stressed (NOT while pregnant) and OW smokes every day (She is pregnant now and I saw her smoking while driving)....

It's just torture to think about those kinds of things.

I guess I just want to find a way to make sure this doesn't happen again but I don't know how.

This is such a struggle! I felt like H was possessed by an alien when he was in the A, he treated me coldly, like he had absolutely no feelings for me, and devalued everything we had together. My jaw had rug burns from all the time spent on the floor after hearing his statements and realizing what he did.

For me, the best way to deal with things is to analyze and try to understand from a psychological POV. What most likely happened in my sitch, is that H's needs were not met, and instead of maturely presenting his needs and suggest MC or another way of growing in the relationship together, he reached out to get his needs gratified by someone else without too much effort. Which is easy in a new relationships, because they are so focused on pleasing the other person and forming a mutual admiration-club!

Any guilt he felt over having to lie to me and cheat on me in order to get what he craved, he had to defend himself against. He most likely did that through a defense mechanism called 'splitting' - where you see a person as only good or bad. I had to be seen as all bad, and OW as all good, in order for him to live with himself. That would also explain the 'different rules for different people' (in your case, the smoking). If it's consistent and across relationships, it would indicate a personality disorder. But it seems affairs can throw people into temporary insanity!

I agree that it's hard to trust that it won't happen again. I'm thinking that if we continue MC and I feel that H really changes - in his case that he starts talking about what he needs and addresses other issues - he should have different tools in the future to handle M problems. I hope. And pray.

Are the two of you in MC?

[Clairee]

I'm so glad Toots pointed me in your direction Twin. I feel like I could've written this myself. I know H is trying, but letting go of what he did is something I just can't seem to do. I totally get things happening today getting attached to the past. I find myself angry & it's usually over something so trivial. H took me to dinner when I visited a couple of weeks ago, he saw a buddy & left me sitting at the table. In a split second I went from being relaxed & enjoying the dinner to angry that 'I bet he didn't do that with her'. It was all I could do to bite my tongue & swallow the blood. I don't want to punish him especially over something I'm only speculating would or wouldn't have happened. Since they only met in person 1weekend & the rest was text/phone, they didn't even have dinner together. But it didn't stop my head from going there. Like I said on my thread earlier today, when I hear him tell me his excuses for it happening, all I want to do is yell I was lonely too you jacka$$! I seriously wish there was some magic button to push so I could let this go. My IC just keeps saying it takes time & is a process & that I have to practice patience & not beat myself up when these flashbacks or emotions happen.

[twinmom]

Back from Disney World and TIRED. The kids had a blast, it was mostly miserable for me. My mom and H's mom were on my nerves at all times. My mom mostly.

Ok I need some perspective here... we left at 2am Sunday morning so H's mom came over the night before and stayed here. I had stopped at Dunkin Donuts and gotten a coffee to reheat in the "morning" so I could have coffee without adding an extra step in getting all 5 kids and 3 adults out the door for the airport. I had my coffee (already heated) sitting on the kitchen counter and I was getting the older boys up and making sure they had their stuff when I hear H's mom say to him, "I'm just going to have some of Rachael's coffee" and proceeds to pick up my cup. H walks across the kitchen to her and tells her he is going to stop for coffee on the way to the airport.

I don't say a word till H and I are alone later that night and I tell him I don't appreciate his mom trying to drink my coffee, I told him she was welcome to make a pot (she knows where everything is in my kitchen) or she could have stopped on her way to our house like I did. He tells me he didn't think it was a big deal.

I am still irritated because both H and his mom don't think it's rude/wrong to just pick up someones coffee cup and drink it.

Perspective PLEASE! Am I just that uptight about this?



There were many other small things that made the trip stressful BUT the kids never saw that stuff and just enjoyed the vacation so I am happy about that.

[twinmom]

Just to clarify, one of my H's complaints about our marriage and one of my 180's was to be more accepting of stuff his family does.

[Sotto]

Well, I do find it rather rude to drink someone's coffee. Did you offer to get her one when you got yours?? But I would put it in the 'minor irritation' box. If you're still bothered about it in a week, maybe look at it again, but when you are tired after the trip, maybe just put it to one side.

It's a shame you didn't have a good trip, due to feeling irritated. Is there something you can do about that for next time? (If there is a next time....you may have decided never again!!)

[twinmom]

Well, I do find it rather rude to drink someone's coffee. Did you offer to get her one when you got yours?? But I would put it in the 'minor irritation' box. If you're still bothered about it in a week, maybe look at it again, but when you are tired after the trip, maybe just put it to one side.

It's a shame you didn't have a good trip, due to feeling irritated. Is there something you can do about that for next time? (If there is a next time....you may have decided never again!!)

No, I don't text/call her at all. I picked up my coffee while out running errands before she came over.

I think next time I will save extra and pay a babysitter to come with us.

[twinmom]

Maintaining the 180's that I had been working on is HARD. Does anyone have any suggestions for letting off steam? I am finding it so difficult to let go of anger/not make a comment when H's family is around.... I know I have to work on this and I am trying but if anyone has suggestions I am willing to try ANYTHING!

H and I went to a cubs game last Sunday (work for me) and the baby came with us. My 9yr old was with his dad and the 14yr old at a friends house till almost bed time. So MIL just had the twins. We got home and she insisted on sleeping on the couch even though I told her she was welcome to the 9yr olds bed.
At about 5am one of the twins came downstairs and instead of waking me or H she woke grandma...... she ended up vomiting on the couch, grandma didn't clean it up or wake me. She just put a rag on top of the vomit and let the 3yr old go back to sleep with vomit in her hair and laying next to vomit.......

I found this when I got up and was cleaning the living room, well after MIL went home. MIL never told me she vomited.

I am frustrated because while I don't expect MIL to clean up vomit I do expect her to wake me up so I can!


Having a hard time letting go of this.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

Picture a stop sign and when these feelings overwhelm you use the image of a stop sign to wind yourself down. Any reaction you give to their inconsiderate behavior and non-behavior only escalates matters anyway. Then they turn the entire thing around on you and make it all about your angry upset reaction.

You can't fix stupid and it's crazy to fight and argue with stupid. Stupid is as stupid does.

Go Braves.

[Cristy]

Hi Twin, I'm sorry to hear about your son - doubtless, he'll learn from that one! It's good that you recognise some of this and see where your train of thought goes - shifting to a time when you felt others were judging your parenting.

I guess the internal intervention would be good before the above crosses into anger and resentment at your H. It sounds like for you that when something challenging happens, instead of just dealing with that challenging thing as a stand alone item - this is what is happening and I need to respond today - it gets linked to past stuff.

I think we all get flashbacks of how awful it was at the time. I guess if we can recognise and process them as that and only that, we've pretty much cracked it. But it's a shame if we continue to let them colour new things that are happening today.

Twin, it sounds like you might benefit from some support on this. I cant recall, are you seeing an IC at all? Or might there be some reading you can do on this. Essentially, it seems to be about processing and managing to release some of the negative things from the past. You can't change the fact that they happened, but you can work on the fact that they cause you pain in the present.

Nothing else helpful to add I'm afraid - other than I'm sure you'll get there with persistence and patience.

(((Twin)))

Hi Twinmom,

Toots is giving you some great advice regarding benefiting from some support. Are you speaking to a DB coach? They are experts in helping you with forgiveness and how to keep perspective when things are bothering you. I would be happy to give you more info.

Take care,
Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004

[Ggrass]

So tw there has been much progress. I'm very pleased for you an it warms my heart.

It's a journey sweetie and sometimes we just fall over cause we are human.