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Gan, wow a 25k hike AND yoga is impressive. Sounds like a great GAL day!


Me: 42 H: 40
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I filed - 8/2015
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Now I need a lie down even thinking about a 25km hike!


M:44, W:46, S:10
M 13 years, T 15
BD:23/7/2014
W/S Moved to MIL: 23/7/2014
My new place: 21/11/2014
W/S back to flat 22/11/2014
W coming closer, talking 4/2015
Piecing 5/2015
Moving in again 6/2015
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Agreed. I'm not up to a 25km. I'm working on getting off the couch some days.

Oh, below is an excerpt from a post on JB's thread. It was just something that helped explain the feelings a bit better. The idea was that rejecting sex consistently and basically telling me "sex isn't all a M is about, it's something to do when we both feel like it to enjoy together, you wouldn't want me to go through the motions, let's work on our R and I'm sure we'll have sex someday"...well, that was her half of what ended the M. I'm working on my half. Thanks Gan.


"I feel like my desires are so strong I am ashamed of them...and because of that I feel like I am damaged goods that no woman would want...

I don't want to be with every woman I see. What I really want is to be with one woman who can understand how much desire is in my heart day to day, and who can still accept me regardless. And that she would show me that by talking about it with me, acknowledging it, and still making it a priority to take care of my needs (in ways that were agreeable to her).

The point is it really isn't about how much sex, or how often. What I yearn for is someone to understand the depths of my desire, and still love me. In fact, I often long for someone that will actually appreciate the fact that I will pledge eternal loyalty, monogamy, and devotion to just her. Think about it...all day long, hundreds of times a day, I have overwhelming desire...and I let it go, stuff it, put it away, deny it...all with the hopes that I can share that with my partner and turn to only her. And that in return I will do everything I can to understand her needs, accept her irregularities (if I'm irregular), and reciprocate to the best of my ability."


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
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Zues

Sounds like you are regularly irregular!

It's the compulsive element that is concerning, although I confess to a few fantasies about Liam.......

Liam.........

Liam.........

Sadly Liam doesn't know about V. Crazy stalking V.

Gan, thank you for loving concern my dearest gan.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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Coffee time! This morning I look "elegant"!


H 37 Me 36
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OK Zues, enough frivolity with my coffee guy, back to you. Before you read on, know that I intend this as a friendly discussion and do not mean to point the finger…just sharing a little of my journey and musings on the topic which is FAR from black and white -

Originally Posted By: Zues
I'll confess that when I first read your "I don't believe in 'just do it'" it was difficult. In fact, I had the idea in the back of my mind that if I could just find a 'JDI' woman vs. a non-JDI woman I might be ok

What I want you and V (and all highER-desire spouses out there) to understand is that telling the lowER-desire spouse to “just do it” is not the (entire) solution. “Just doing it” when one does not want to is the fast track to resentment and most likely ordinary sex. It’s only through a lot of self-reflection and reading (Schnarch) that I feel that this is something I can now take this on, that is, doing it and not feeling resentment. That’s an internal journey that no-one except ourselves can decide to go on.

My H used to express his frustration at the fact that “sex always happened on my terms". That made sense to me at the time because it meant we were both consenting. My light bulb moment didn’t happen til after BD when I read the books by Schnarch (recommended to me by my IC) in which he explains how the lowER desire partner controls sex. That seems counterintuitive - we usually think it is the HDS who wants sex so they must control it. I certainly felt like my H controlled it. But actually the reverse is true. The lowER desire partner controls sex…and quite frankly we don’t want all that responsibility!

As I said previously, there is a lowER/highER desire spouse on most issues in a marriage. It’s a position one takes on an issue, not a personality or biological trait. When you are the LDS it's your responsibility to confront the issue - stay your course (and be ok with it) or be willing to accept your partners perspective (and loose the resentment).

^^^ is profoundly more empowering than the message “just do it” or "go get checked out because there may be something wrong with you medically".

Originally Posted By: Zues
Natural reaction. I'm sure you've learned a lot since then, but it's not just about more sex. It's about finding ways to meet the emotional needs of your partner that are also filled during sex. That can take a LOT of pressure off the sex life as well, and lay a good ground work for it.

Yes, I have some definite regrets here…and the jury is out on whether my H communicated those needs to me and I didn’t listen/hear or if he didn’t communicate them. Probably a mix. Looking back I know there were some things I could have done that would have made a difference…and I foolishly didn’t. I will always regret that.

Originally Posted By: Zues
OK, those aren't my beliefs, just the thoughts that would stem from resentment coming from a frustrating point myself.

I won’t repeat what came before this ;-) But that ^^^ was your responsibility to work through. You let the resentment build and as such you developed ideas about women that you (probably?) projected back at your wife. I suspect this in turn might have made it harder for her to be intimate with you - because you projected that she was someone who didn’t want sex. If that’s how someone sees you, well, that’s sorta what you become.

There’s a flip side too: When the highER desire spouse speaks of their need for sex, there is a tendency for the lowER desire spouse to (wrongly) think that their partner is over-sexed. Many HDS turn to porn to compensate (you did, my H did too)…right or wrong it fulfils the prophecy.

It’s a stalemate. Everyone feels bad. Game over.

Finally, you’ve used a few examples - like how it would be like not feeding the dog just because don’t feel like it, or depriving kids of going swimming when you know it’s really important to them. I understand you were using these to illustrate just how important the issue is to you. And I think I am coming to understand this in a way I didn’t before. The difference between these examples and sex is the fact that the latter involves me putting my body out there in a very, very personal way. There’s a whole lot more that goes along with that. BTW I’m one of the 9% of women who is generally happy with my body and if the numbers are to be believed then I have an easier time….er…at the end…than 75% of women. Knowing all the faffing that goes around in my head on this topic, I can’t imagine just how hard sex would be for women who weren’t quite so blessed.

So - question for you, Zues. What would it take for you to believe that things could be different in this department between you and your wife? You are clearly left very hurt (as is my H).


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Gan: "Before you read on, know that I intend this as a friendly discussion and do not mean to point the finger"

Z: I braced myself after reading this opening. I'm definitely sensitive about this subject as I've historically felt ashamed of my desires, have turned to porn and fantasy to medicate, have behaved destructively to try to control my partner, and have watched that lead to the destruction of my M. Yet I didn't feel judged or attacked by your post, and for that I felt it was important to offer a sincere THANK YOU before going further. In fact, it felt a lot like compassion and understanding, those are powerful healing forces.


Gan: "There’s a flip side too: When the highER desire spouse speaks of their need for sex, there is a tendency for the lowER desire spouse to (wrongly) think that their partner is over-sexed. Many HDS turn to porn to compensate (you did, my H did too)…right or wrong it fulfils the prophecy.
It’s a stalemate. Everyone feels bad. Game over."

Z: Yes. Stalemate describes the last chapters of my M. And the feeling of my needs or desires being judged was devastating to me. Just as I mentioned how sensitive this is, it was very hard to open up about who I am so I learned I was hideous and I needed to put my mask back on, pretend to be the person she wanted me to be, and take care of my own needs...

I can see the other side as well, being treated like there's something wrong with you for not being higher geared, or not being able to satisfy your man, being insufficient, not being able to measure up with a fantasy world, and being told to go to the doctor for help, etc. Truly heartbreaking to see how both people can be so hurt by the different sides of the coin.

Gan: "Finally, you’ve used a few examples - like how it would be like not feeding the dog just because don’t feel like it, or depriving kids of going swimming when you know it’s really important to them. I understand you were using these to illustrate just how important the issue is to you. And I think I am coming to understand this in a way I didn’t before. The difference between these examples and sex is the fact that the latter involves me putting my body out there in a very, very personal way. There’s a whole lot more that goes along with that."

Z: Agreed. Just don't underestimate how hard it is for a guy that struggles with sharing his emotions, fear of rejection and abandonment, and shame about his desires, to then open up to his partner and talk about what's in his heart. It's strangely parallel.

What my W didn't know was that I didn't just feel rejected when she rejected me. It was perpetual.

Every time I saw a TV commercial that used a sexy woman, I was hurt that she didn't understand there's a reason for all of those commercials, it's because it's THAT important to men that it captures our attention. Walking through the mall and seeing a Victoria Secret sign hurt because it reminded me that there were other women that understood the desire in their men and took pride and joy in satisfying it. Basically, every single time I felt desire in my heart, I felt rejected again knowing I was alone with it, that I couldn't turn to the only person in the world I was given to turn to. I don't know if those feelings washed over me dozens or hundreds of times a day, but it was a downer. So each real rejection lead to many, many rejection 'echoes'.

But the flip side is that when we ML, when she tried things that I wanted to try, or she did things to surprise me and make me feel understood and special...I felt LOVE echoes like you wouldn't believe! Each of the above stimuli, well, I'd think to myself "I'm so lucky I have a woman at home that loves me, understands me, and is willing to celebrate who I am". So it's not a one way street, and the same thing that turns the heart to ice can turn it into a roaring furnace.


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gan: "So - question for you, Zues. What would it take for you to believe that things could be different in this department between you and your wife? You are clearly left very hurt (as is my H)."

Separate response for this question. It is REALLY tough. So let me explain why this is so hard for me to answer. I'm not sure that my answer will be 'right'. I've used porn to varying degrees for many years. I don't know how differently I'll feel once it's an ancient memory. It could be that I'm 90% of the way to where I'll be when I'm truly purged, and it's a year or two down the road. It might be that I'm only 50% of the way there and my brain is still taking crazy circuits because of so much programming imagery. This is new to look at for me, it was part of my life for so long I never questioned that my thoughts and desires weren't just "who I was". And I think there's a lot of truth in that because there's a reason I was drawn in at the beginning, it is a *****POWERFUL***** force. But I'm a little hesitant about making declarations of how I will feel in the future.

But if I had to answer what it would take for me to believe it could be different the way I feel NOW?

My first reaction to hearing those words was to tighten up. I've tried to open myself up, beg, plead, explain, reason, threaten, everything- to try to be understood by my STBX. In my brain I know that people can learn and change, but my heart is pretty closed. This was the case before BD as well, and what lead to us not talking. It got to the place where there was just no point.

It would be like if you were selling your car and wanted $5,000, so you went to a dealership to see if they'd buy it from you. They nod, take you very seriously, fill out a bunch of paperwork, keep you there all afternoon, and then finally come back and offer you $750. You'd be like "that's crazy!" If they started negotiating, and then offered you $800, and started talking about nonsensical factors you'd have to just walk away at some point because you'd just realize that although you don't know how they stay in business, or where they're coming from, you know enough to realize you're SO far apart you're not in any danger of ever making a deal.

But then (and this analogy is breaking down) you realized you loved this dealership, it was so convenient, and you like their commercials, and they call you back and apologize that their last offer didn't work, and so they call you back in and promise they'll be in the right ball park this time...only to repeat the process.

I'm not saying this is a unique feeling to this situation, it's probably one we can ALL relate to in various ways.

But basically I'm at the point where I have no reason to ever believe that my STBX will ever understand how far apart we truly are. And I am sick to the core of begging, pleading, hoping, praying, and trying everything I can to explain myself, defend myself, or get it through to her. I just realize that I've got better things to do with my life than repeat that for ever. I wasn't a man that was willing to leave my M over it, but only because I was resigned to a miserable lifelong M.

So that's what I'd be trying to overcome.

That said, it's not one sided. I mourn for our M as much as anyone. In fact, if I was willing to be in a lifelong miserable M out of commitment, I'd be pretty interested in hearing any proposed solutions to our stalemate. So if she were to approach me and give me a 'legitimate offer', I think I'd still be willing to do business.

If she told me she'd recognized her part of the destruction of the M, how she realized she couldn't allow herself to see my point of view because of how threatened it made her feel, or how that would require her to do things she wasn't comfortable with, or whatever. If she said that she wasn't pretending it would be easy or she'd be a porn star, but that she recognized that it would be EQUALLY difficult for me to compromise and partner. And that she realizes that my needs aren't my problem that I need to fix, but a part of me that would be part of our M that we need to work together to manage. And that she loved me, and had faith that we could grow to do that for each other, and live a long, mostly happy, and at times freaky kinky life together...and then she was ready to back that up by showing me a side of herself that she hadn't shown me before...

Well, I don't think I could resist that!

Particularly because I KNOW there are no perfect woman and wouldn't want one. I KNOW there are no perfect M's. It's not like my next W will make all of my dreams come true. And I ALSO KNOW THAT I HAVE SOME ISSUES ON THIS TOPIC. And I'm NOT stupid enough to walk away from an offer like that above because I'd rather chase a fantasy.

And as I said in my last post, it wouldn't take long for her to win my heart back. Sex and lack of it has SUPER POWERFUL impacts on how I feel with her. In some senses I'm very easy, it's almost like I have one button that needs to be pushed now and then and I'll run forever and be a perfect robot husband. That's why it was so strange to me that we couldn't arrange that.

Anyway, different sitch. Different because she was a WAW, you are not. Different because I'm trying to stand for my M and heal as a person, he is not and is still medicating and rationalizing. Different because you are also trying to stand/heal, my WAW is not.

When I think about how hard it was for me to answer the above question with me WANTING to stand by my M, it makes me wonder how M's are ever saved. But I've learned not to try to be so darn smart and just trust that when it comes to the heart, and what's possible between a man and a woman, I need to STFU and admit I wouldn't be here if I knew how this stuff worked.

Gan, thanks for your time, and know that I'm touched you're willing to have this conversation and explore this so deeply. Honestly, if your H could see you doing this he might be pretty inspired. I hope for your sake he doesn't turn out to be a fool...


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
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Gan

I am not saying " just do it" on its own. Of course not.

What I am saying is this, part of wanting to have sex and ML is anticipating. The sexiest organ in the human body is the brain. From there all the triggers for hormones flow. Sometimes just doing it gets the sexy going!

So I know that I need to do a number of things to get myself and my body ready to feel sexy,. Sometimes, yes, it is just do it. But it can take a little planning or self seduction.

1. Masturbate regularly. learn to please yourself. Buy some jelly and go for it. Not just in an R, during the dry spells too. This is for all your life. At nearly 61 I love sex as much now as I always did. I miss it too. H and I had some great naughty nooky.
2. Find your sexy triggers, underwear, no underwear, bathing, massage, cheeeese, makeup, meal. Find them all, note them down. kiss and snog lots too.
3. Like all behaviour changes, understand it and study it.
4. Think positively about sex, if you see it as a chore it will be, call it something good, a pet name it's easier to discuss
5. Learn to masturbate your man, give bj it can be a quickie like this
6. Watch him, look in his eyes, at his bum, left nostril, curly hair on nape. The thing that got to you when you first met.
7. Let him do the work, let him know what pleases you and lie back and think of England sometimes
8. Prepare your mind and body earlier in the day
9. smile, it doesn't have to be as in the movies, it can be sweaty, awkward and downright hilarious

So do you know what pleases you, (not asking for details here) but do you know your triggers?

What got you going in the beginning of your R. Do you mark it in your diary or journal? What opens up your thoughts to sex or ML or naughty nookie? Do you share this with your partner?

Like DB you have control over your own sexuality and are responsible for it higher or lower than your partner matters not. Let's hope during your life you cross roles sometimes.

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 05/05/15 09:45 PM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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Oh and by the way, I know I am oversexed sometimes. That needs managing too.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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