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Originally Posted By: Zues126
So I blanked xmas and will probably blank mother's day. She can have the memory of the gifts on her birthday as a nagging reminder that I am capable of doing thoughtful things. But we're no longer in a spot where I care to do them.

If anything I think I'll ask my kids if they need help getting her something for mother's day, and I'll let them drive the ship entirely. That way my fingerprints won't be on them at all (unlike the birthday stuff).
Pyrite,

As Z wrote earlier in his last post, you are early on with your situtation. But the part I quoted above makes a lot of sense, too. I did not get my WAW anything for Cristmas or Valentine's Day per my therapist's advice. My W walked out and filed for D in late October, so it was only 2 months later that Christmas hit.

As I've thought about it more, maybe you can ask your young children to draw something for your W and leave it at that.

I'm not sure if I'm helping, or confusing you more. I certainly hope this helps.

And, as Z wrote, and I did in my previous post, please make sure you read his earlier post. Very, very good stuff.

Bob


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
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T:15 yrs
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Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
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Originally Posted By: Pyrite
cool. It was the pro-M part I was looking for. I dont want confrontational, just someone who suggests other ways of thinking bout an issue OR highlights when my way of thinking about something is ....questionable. Someone who is MORE ready to be on the front foot than just passively listening. I'm not saying that this is ALL she does either. Just weighing up.

Thanks for the advice.


"Solution based" in another theme to search for, otherwise it's often a rehash of the past.

For us, it usually lead to yet another argument and or the belief that we really could not stay married and be happy.

IMO, seeing a pro-marriage counselor should mean that you work on yourself and stay inside your own sandbox, (and out of your wife's sandbox). Boundaries are huge and they seem to be an issue for you.

Your wife won't be in the office with you and your counselor, so there is no point in putting the focus on her or her behavior or what you perceive as her thoughts/emotions, etc. It gets to be all about you (and the kids).

As for "confrontation", I think the point is that you are someone who may want a kid gloves approach from a counselor, or the defensiveness in you will rear up. The need to be declared "right" is sort of a deadly disease in us, that we have to defeat.

And imo, the challenging type of IC is what you actually would benefit the most from. That is certainly not confrontation for confrontation's sake. The priest who married my h and me didn't say a whole lot of insightful or memorable things but one remark does stand out.

"It's not the number of conflicts that determines the health of a marriage -b/c life throws more curve balls to some couples. It's HOW those conflicts get resolved that counts."


It'll be great to have an IC who can get you to stay on your path of self improvement and personal growth, and to keep you on it.

Have you considered hiring a DB coach for at least a few sessions?

My DB coach was a real Godsend. Something she told me that only sank in much later, was this:

No WAS returns to a marriage they left, unless they believe that marriage can be better/different than before.


And It's up to the LBSer to demonstrate that^^^, with our own changes.

What do you think your wife has seen and heard from you, consistently, and with sufficient time?

Here's the "math" of it.


Consistent change + sufficient time = change they can believe in.

Good luck!


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H off to Alaska 2006
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carried from last thread ....

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

"Solution based" in another theme to search for, otherwise it's often a rehash of the past.

For us, it usually lead to yet another argument and or the belief that we really could not stay married and be happy.

IMO, seeing a pro-marriage counselor should mean that you work on yourself and stay inside your own sandbox, (and out of your wife's sandbox). Boundaries are huge and they seem to be an issue for you.

Your wife won't be in the office with you and your counselor, so there is no point in putting the focus on her or her behavior or what you perceive as her thoughts/emotions, etc. It gets to be all about you (and the kids).

As for "confrontation", I think the point is that you are someone who may want a kid gloves approach from a counselor, or the defensiveness in you will rear up. The need to be declared "right" is sort of a deadly disease in us, that we have to defeat.

And imo, the challenging type of IC is what you actually would benefit the most from. That is certainly not confrontation for confrontation's sake. The priest who married my h and me didn't say a whole lot of insightful or memorable things but one remark does stand out.

"It's not the number of conflicts that determines the health of a marriage -b/c life throws more curve balls to some couples. It's HOW those conflicts get resolved that counts."

It'll be great to have an IC who can get you to stay on your path of self improvement and personal growth, and to keep you on it.

Have you considered hiring a DB coach for at least a few sessions?

My DB coach was a real Godsend. Something she told me that only sank in much later, was this:

No WAS returns to a marriage they left, unless they believe that marriage can be better/different than before.

And It's up to the LBSer to demonstrate that^^^, with our own changes.

What do you think your wife has seen and heard from you, consistently, and with sufficient time?

Here's the "math" of it.


Consistent change + sufficient time = change they can believe in.

Good luck!


great advice. A DB coaching session. I had all but dismissed this. If I was in the States this would've happened already. But the time difference makes things awkward.

actually I want the opposite to "kid gloves". I suggested "challenging". it was MrBond who brought up confrontational. I need someone to "steer" me. I tend to lead, especially when handed the reigns.


"No WAS returns to a marriage they left, unless they believe that marriage can be better/different than before.

And It's up to the LBSer to demonstrate that^^^, with our own changes."

I have an issue with this. It comes up repeatedly in posts/responses. Sort of in DR, but bette qualified I guess. The WAS (or at least mine) is busy enjoying her new life. She doesn't give a damn about what I am doing. She doesn't spend her time thinking, "Gee - if only I could believe in a change I would go back to him or give him a chance". She has moved on.

I concede that possibly she is conflicted, but all around her, and her own gut, is telling her to detach (which is easier for her I wager already having OM). move on with what she has now. forget the past. it was toxic she tells herself. "I am never going back there. I am never going to be sorry for what I have done. I had to. And I did nothing wrong. I followed my heart."

My trying to control her, WRT craving acceptance from her in the M was farcical, wrong, destructive, etc. Me believing for a second now that I can influence the situation is delusional. She has to look. ALL I can do is be the right person that she sees. BUT she has to look. and that has nothing to do with me, and that is heavily, heavily weighted against me.

Of course I DO want reassurance from these posts that "there is chance" (and the like). But I dont realistically expect it, nor would I believe it. Well, this is my biggest issue presently, I would believe it. My head would be skeptical, and even dismissive, but my heart would find a way to twist rationale in such a way that "you know what - it doesn't seem so far fetched", that she would have thoughts of "looking" occasionally. BUT she is fighting these feelings, as I am fighting mine, and she is in a stronger place.


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thanks for advice. I am sure I read your post before I passed out (sleep), time difference here. whose thread? we seem to be hopping a bit.


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Thanks Bob, I am yet to get back to your thread. Time will beeves shorter this week. My turn with the kids.

I am ditching Xmas, birthday, definitely V day. Just Mothers day is sorta different. She is my kids mother, whatever she is to me. I certainly wouldn't include my name on the card or anything.


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Another question.

My D4 repeatedly asks and phrases questions to me about the M? Do you miss mummy? Do you want to live together?

It is getting increasingly difficult to answer "neutrally", and I am getting more and more p***ed off that I can't just tell her "Mummy doesn't want to try. Mummy already has OM".

how have others dealt with this? opinions?


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Originally Posted By: Pyrite
Thanks Bob, I am yet to get back to your thread. Time will beeves shorter this week. My turn with the kids.

I am ditching Xmas, birthday, definitely V day. Just Mothers day is sorta different. She is my kids mother, whatever she is to me. I certainly wouldn't include my name on the card or anything.
Pyrite,

You're welcome! I understand what you mean about Mother's Day. Good approach.

Hang in there.

Bob


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
M:14 yrs
T:15 yrs
No children together--3 each from previous marriages
Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14
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I was referring to the post on page one of this thread about abandoning yourself.

As to what you're saying now, you're right that your WAW feels that way. But here's the thing- the same way I told you that you can't "decide" your way out of painful feelings, she can't either.

She can decide that you are the devil. She can decide whatever the heck she wants. But she's going to hurt every bit as much as you from the destruction of her family.

So to your next point, that she's medicating so much with OM she wouldn't feel it if she was playing full contact football against a team comprised of porcupines. While this is true to some point, she's still conflicted.

Maybe a WAW can post more on this, but they have thoughts like "I wish it could've been like this with me and Py", or "Py would've thought that was funny", or "Oh, look what little Johnny did, I wish I could share that with Py", or "This guy's asking me questions about me that I lived with Py, my partner will never know the 'me' I was for so many years of my life". I could go on.

So while they are doing everything they can to blame you for the pain that somehow navigated it's way through their labyrinth of medication...they are STILL truly conflicted.

And though they snap a rubber band on their wrist every time they think of you...they DO think of you.

And though she's watching every step you with an eye out for anything that could twisted into a flaw to rationalize her decision...she IS watching every step you make.

And though she is stubbornly against anything that suggests that maybe destroying her family isn't in her best interest...at some point she may hit ROCK BOTTOM.

Look at all of the people on this site. You. Me. Parker. Miami. Mozza. We all bottomed out, and that prompted us to seek change like we've never changed before.

Who's to say she won't do the same thing if she bottoms out? And as she's still been experiencing those pesky feelings of love for you, those irritating feelings of regret for the life you had, she will once again look at you with fresh eyes. And the things you do between now and then will inspire her of two things. 1) You are a good man, capable of change, capable of making a future R possible, and 2) If you can do it so can she.

Someone has to be the leader here. She can't do it, so I'm afraid you have to.

Now- you're also right about one thing. There's no guarantee she'll follow. Nor should you concern yourself with looking over your shoulder.

But as the leader of your family you have to walk the path and at least give her the opportunity to follow. Sitting in the corner saying "I'm not going to be a leader if she won't follow anyway" is you being just as uncommitted as her. Commitment to the M means doing what you know to be right regardless of what she does.

Best of all...regardless of what she does you'll feel better, stand taller, and be better prepared for your next R. So time to retire from the "mind reading" and "future telling" business, and work on getting your PHD in "DBing presented by 25years".

25- thank you for posting on Py's thread. He's so much like me I think someone must have taken a drop of my blood out of a fossilized mosquito around the time he showed up...:)


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Thanks Z. great responses. I'll re-read when i am not on the clock. I also want to thank-you 25, and Z - for the compliment - I hope I can live up to the expectations.

Peace and love to you all. Thanks a gazillion.


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i can't reply in full, time difference means I am at work and always out of syncwithmost of you guys ....

Originally Posted By: Z
Maybe a WAW can post more on this, but they have thoughts like "I wish it could've been like this with me and Py", or "Py would've thought that was funny", or "Oh, look what little Johnny did, I wish I could share that with Py", or "This guy's asking me questions about me that I lived with Py, my partner will never know the 'me' I was for so many years of my life". I could go on.


funny, last 2 emails I got from her (updates about the kids) she chooses D4's comments about me to report. clearly the reminder comes externally (through Ds) as well and must impact her internally methinks. anyway, useless temperature checking.


M: 6 T: 12
Kids: 2,4
BD: Jan 2015 S: Feb 2015
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