Card29 XI - Journey

[Card29]

You are so right about XW having reality hit her. So many DB prophesies have come true, even lately. She even seems to be grasping back to me as she realizes I'm truly moving on. Proves the point of "don't promise your WAW that you're not dating", even if you aren't. That doubt works in your favor. In my case, I wouldn't take WAW back if she asked now. But many here would, so I thought id share that observation. I really hope and pray for her sake that she can make a couple of new, close, local friends, and that they are here as long as she is. She did just have a weekend in Chicago with one of her best friends, and I'm sure she had fun.

Btw, I just had an amazing weekend with sis's friend. I didn't even know I'd see her until Friday afternoon when she texted me, then we ended up spending all day Saturday and most of Sunday together. No, not overnight Saturday haha. She was babysitting 5 and 1-yr-old boys. We doubled teamed them and D2, took them to some fun events.

After all of the kids except D2 were asleep Saturday, I surprised her with a kiss. Previously we had only been friendly, although I'm sure she knew I was into her. It was really fun to surprise her. After it she just smiled big but said "its hard, I'm just afraid of what might happen if it doesn't work." I told her that I understand, I completely respect her friendship with my sister, and that we could talk about it more. She agreed. She said, "Seriously, your sister is my soul mate." Then she had an amazing line. We'd been watching a local fireworks show on TV, but she stepped away to the kitchen during it. That's when I walked in behind her and kissed her. Didn't want to kiss her in front of D2. When we came back I said, "Aww it's over, we missed the grand finale." She said, "yeah but we made our own." !!!

Who knows what the future holds. This weekend was simply amazing, and that's enough for now

[Card29]

Last night was a big night for me and sis' friend. After I kissed her a couple of weeks ago, we decided that we needed to talk. She mentioned her reservations of dating her best friend's brother (the fear of what would happen if it didn't work) and also a mild reservation about maybe being a step-mom, something she'd never considered before. We were both really busy that last 1-1/2 weeks, so we finally had dinner last night and put everything out there.

After further thought, she is no longer that concerned about "if" it didn't work, because she knows how I handled my divorce, and she's never had animosity for her exes, either. "We are both adults" were her words. I agreed. She also said she would even be excited to be a step-mom for D2. Her only concern was what D2 would call her, haha! She wouldn't be "mom" but she also doesn't want to be "first name" or "Ms. First Name". So obviously we laughed at that, not a real objection.

The only reservation she has is the exact same one I have right now - that she is not ready yet. We are on the same page on everything, not only with what we want in life, our personalities, parenting styles (I learned that during our weekend together with the 3 kids, 2 of which she was baby sitting). And we also are on the same page that now is not the time to really start dating. We both want to keep hanging out as "friends for now" as we have been. She mentioned that she didn't want to enter the "friendzone" though.

But I finally know what I've always hoped and then suspected - that she sees how we fit, she does want it to work between us, she is excited about the possibility of her best friend being her SIL, etc. We ended the night with a simple hug. I'll see her Saturday as she's hosting a house warming party.


She also revealed a lot about the end of her R with her ex. I suspected that she had an A at the end of it (although I never asked her about it), and she confirmed that she did. She was telling me in case it made me see her in a different light and didn't want to be involved with "someone like that". She is amazingly open like that. I smiled and dropped some DB knowledge on her - that any one of us is capable of it, and I don't judge her for a second, just like I don't judge my STBXW. I even told her about the EA I had a couple of years ago, in the darkest part of our M from my perspective, and that if that woman hadn't moved out of state, who knows what would have happened.


STBX news, I saw her and her BF yesterday for the second time. Dropping off D2. STBX is taking her to Florida today to visit family. Incident-free

[Mozza]

Thanks for the update, as always. So your take on people who leave their relationship (was sis' friend married?) for an A is that it can happen to anyone and you don't judge? I'm surprised. I don't know that I could be so generous. What makes you think sis' friend is not more prone to it than the average person?

What I perceive is that both of you see the hurdles to a R, but are very attracted to each other at the same time, so you're willing to overlook them. I think that handling an eventual break-up would be more difficult than you anticipate because you'd have a messenger in between and multiple opportunities to meet. You'd run into each other's new significant others. And if you eventually R with WW, then it will be very awkward to meet her with your sis. I surely wouldn't want my WW's ex around if we R.

I sound skeptical, but I want is to give you an external perspective, from the little that I know. I also don't believe it will have any effect, because I know how attraction feels like.

[Card29]

Hi Mozza,

Thanks for weighing in with your honest feelings

Thanks for the update, as always. So your take on people who leave their relationship (was sis' friend married?) for an A is that it can happen to anyone and you don't judge? I'm surprised. I don't know that I could be so generous.

- She was not married, was dating a guy for 5 years and voiced her desire to be married for the last 4 years of the R.

- Yes, I think it could happen to anyone, or at least most people, given the wrong circumstances. As I've mentioned, I had an EA 2 years ago (albeit a mild one...the OW might not even know we did, I don't know). If OW hadn't moved away, who knows what would have happened.

- I don't judge her just as I don't judge my WW. I'm not saying either of them weren't wrong. They were. So was I. They should have ended their R's/M's first, but in reality that rarely happens. I should have done the research on marriage that I did when she left. Etc.

- I'm also not saying I'm ignoring what she did. Since that A ended, she has been learning about herself, which is all you could hope for. And although she's been on some dates, she has been single for going on 4 months now with no definite end in sight. She doesn't want an R again until she knows she's ready, until she can "trust herself again". Bottom line, though, just like my WW, she was emotionally starved, and met a guy who filled what had been a void in her for years.

What makes you think sis' friend is not more prone to it than the average person?

- You could ask the same thing about either of our WW's. But if I was announcing that WW and I were attempting to R, would you have asked it? Maybe I have a different perspective since I went through the EA. I know what it's like to be miserably unfulfilled for years on end, then to feel a spark with someone you think is "the one". Back then, I thought the exact same words that WW told me, that sis's friend told me last night, and that I've read on here dozens of times: "I thought I ("she" or "he" when read from the LBS perspective here) would have been the last person on Earth to have an A. I can't believe I ("he"/"she") did this." I also had this thought (about 12 months before STBX started her A): "NOW I understand how someone could have an A." Previous to that, I thought you just had to be a terrible person.

What I perceive is that both of you see the hurdles to a R, but are very attracted to each other at the same time, so you're willing to overlook them.

I disagree with this statement. For one, we aren't blindly in love with each other. I definitely was in that phase a few months ago, but I'm much more "detached" from sis's friend now. I still think she is as "perfect" for me as I could imagine. We click on micro and macro scales. Micro- Last night we went to dinner at 7 and we talked until the restaurant closed, then talked for another hour at her house. And only the last hour or so was about "us". Most of the convo was lively yet casual. In her words, "easy", as it always is with us. Macro- From what she's shared, we have eerily similar dreams. Like we both want a 2 week backpacking trip in Europe for a honeymoon. I learned that about her a couple of weeks ago, yet I've thought for years and years that that would be my "dream" honeymoon. But we are both very level-headed right now. I've been on a couple of dates with other girls the last 2-3 weeks, just having fun. I'm not obsessed with anyone, including her.

Also, we aren't overlooking the hurdles. Right now we agree that there is only one remaining hurdle - she is not ready for a serious R yet. And we agreed last night that we should not be anything more than friends until she feels like she is ready, and then only IF we both still want to date at that point. No promises or timelines were made last night. Neither of us see D2 or her BFF relationship with my sister as hurdles, just factors to consider and respect.

I think that handling an eventual break-up would be more difficult than you anticipate because you'd have a messenger in between and multiple opportunities to meet. You'd run into each other's new significant others.

- It can't go any worse than what happened with WW. Even if the same situation happened again, I can't imagine it being harder on me, so I would know that I'd been through it before.

- I see STBX all of the time, and I'm even starting to see her BF on a more normal basis. I am totally unaffected. I am also still relatively close to her family. I hung out with STBX, SIL, BIL, etc. a few weeks ago. I'm love all of them. Really, what's the difference between STBX-SIL and sis's-friend-and-sis? On top of that, my sister and her friend are wayyy more forgiving than STBX and SIL. I say that honestly, calmly and lovingly. STBX and SIL just aren't very forgiving. They would agree, and STBX has told me as much before. SIL still writes hate mail to their dad's "OW" from 20 years ago. I'm not even trying to saying sis's friend and sis are better people, I'm just speaking facts about their forgiveness qualities.

- If sis's friend and I broke up eventually, without kids together, I would probably see her once or twice a year. I would get over it. And if we did have kids, I can't see the difference in the sitch with STBX. The last 4 months have been 4 of the best of my life, and it has nothing or little to do with sis' friend. Would there be pain in a breakup? Of course. That risk exists with any woman I enter a committed R with.

And if you eventually R with WW, then it will be very awkward to meet her with your sis. I surely wouldn't want my WW's ex around if we R.

- I no longer have a desire to R with STBX. I care about her, I even love her, like I love my SIL or something. But not only have my feelings for her died down, I also see it as a battle to make it work. I was never madly in love with STBX, even when we first dated. I (rightfully) broke up with her 6 months into us dating, but I felt so bad that I got back together with her and just tried to force it to work between us. Yes, M's are hard work, but having a natural connection, significant things in common, make the work much more enjoyable to do. STBX and I just don't have that connection, never have. And the only reason to fight to make that disfunctional R work at this point would be D2. And I now realize that D2 is going to be fine. We have a very good start to our coparenting relationship.

I sound skeptical, but I want is to give you an external perspective, from the little that I know. I also don't believe it will have any effect, because I know how attraction feels like.

I do really appreciate your words! I obviously know that my emotions are factoring into my thoughts. I'm a human, and I don't want to enter a R without emotions (like I did with STBX). I always strive to be objective, though, so I carefully read your words and considered them. You did force me to think a little more deeply about her A, and I appreciate your pointing that out and forcing me to think. It makes me even more comfortable to hold off indefinitely from dating her because she really does need more time for self-reflection. Time is the biggest factor in figuring that out.

Thanks as always, Moz!!

[uRworthy]

Hey Freddy.

Ok, so, here goes. LOL! I am a little concerned that the two of you arent even dating and you have discussed what D2 would call her and where you would go on your honeymoon. Whats up with that?

I am glad that you are taking it slowly. I do think she has a lot to work through and I think you have to heal some more.

There really isnt any rush so take your time.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

1. I'm concerned that this woman is signing up for all kinds of hurt. She dated a guy 5 years hoping to get married and it sounds like the guy strung her along. They were still dating. It's NOT an affair and if he didn't want her dating other he should have put a ring on it. But her going from that and choosing to soon after consider dating (and talking about honeymoons and step parenting) with a guy that isn't even actually divorced yet is a fairly good indication that this girls picker may be a bit broken.

2. A lot of divorced men rebound into the first relationship with a younger pretty woman they can find as a way to prove to reclaim their self respect and show their ex-wife that they are the man. Divorce rates for 2nd marriages are higher than first marriage AND third marriages for MANY reasons. SLOW DOWN.

3. I'm not saying this might not be a great fit for you and for her and that the odds have to apply to you but get divorced and date around a bit before committing to the first shiny thing you find. You are only 29. Second marriage success is like 30% in 10 years. You don't want to be a 40 year with two ex-wives already paying child support to two women.

4. Your feelings regarding potential recovery with your stbxw diminishing is no surprise. Your love tank for her is draining into your sister's friends love tank at an alarming rate.

GET DIVORCED FIRST.

Typically (I'm not insulting your new friend that I don't know she may really be great) the most healthy well adjusted marriage material women wouldn't date a still married man if their lives depended on it. You've gone through a huge trauma the last year. Think about this...if your sister was interested in a guy in your exact current situation, would you want her pursuing it???

[Card29]

Hey Freddy.

Ok, so, here goes. LOL! I am a little concerned that the two of you arent even dating and you have discussed what D2 would call her and where you would go on your honeymoon. Whats up with that?

I am glad that you are taking it slowly. I do think she has a lot to work through and I think you have to heal some more.

There really isnt any rush so take your time.

The thing about what D2 would call her was more of a laugh. We weren't actually "discussing" that. We both know it would need to happen organically. But we also know that we shouldn't just casually date when one of us isn't ready for commitment due to the nature of how we're connected

And I do feel like I'm taking my time. I'm not waiting on pins and needles for her to "be ready". I know it could be months, or it could never happen and she could meet someone else. I'm not obsessed like I was in January/February. I am detached, single, and happy.

[Mozza]

I've never had an EA and can say that I was never tempted to leave or cheat on my WW. I'm not saying I'm immune, but that I agree that I lack the insight of how it can happen. Perhaps I'd be more forgiving, less suspicious.

Anyway, I don't want to pile up more on top of this. As usual, you seem to take a very mature approach to the whole thing — remember when I had to check your signature to make sure you weren't a 50-yo woman ;-) — and to take things slow. The Great Dating Debate on my thread 11 shows well how dating-while-separated is perceived here, but I think there's more leeway in it. There are several LBH of our "BD generation" facing this question now (jim0987, MCS, you, me), all of us still married legally, yet left behind without the shadow of a doubt. I've success stories around me of people who remarried quickly and have a healthy R several years down the road. I've looked up some research and the delays between R do not seem to be a determining factor of success.

I'm not saying we should be dating, just that it's an option. I'll agree that it can make R less likely, for obvious reasons.

Anyway, keep beating your own path on this and I'm happy to follow your adventures.

[Cadet]

I'm not saying we should be dating, just that it's an option. I'll agree that it can make R less likely, for obvious reasons.

I think the real issue here is that if you are not healed and whole from the first relationship and you have done some real serious research about what is wrong with YOURSELF, it is highly likely that you will repeat history with someone else.

I think getting divorced is one of the things you should do as a minimum before you are going to be able to complete this process.

[Card29]

Thanks for weighing in, GB

1. I'm concerned that this woman is signing up for all kinds of hurt. She dated a guy 5 years hoping to get married and it sounds like the guy strung her along. They were still dating. It's NOT an affair and if he didn't want her dating other he should have put a ring on it. But her going from that and choosing to soon after consider dating (and talking about honeymoons and step parenting) with a guy that isn't even actually divorced yet is a fairly good indication that this girls picker may be a bit broken.

You feel that you can't have an A if you're not M? Sorry if I misread. I would disagree with that. I do hold M on a very high ground, and I believe in working through any problems that could possibly be resolved once M'd. But I feel like you can have commitment and betrayal without paperwork, a ceremony, ring, etc. You're absolutely right that he should have put a ring on it, though. She is one of the most forthcoming people I've ever met and I don't doubt that she told him plenty of times her desires, although she said she didn't try to "smother him" with M talk. "I never left ring ads on his desk or anything like that," is what she told me.

From what I've witnessed and learned about women "in their prime" who want families and kids, they typically leave one R for another. She's been single since February, although she's been on some dates for fun. And she seems to be really settling into being single and figuring herself out. I hope, for her sake, that she is patient through this process. We discussed a few weeks ago than one of the hardest parts of this chaos is relearning who you are, what you want, etc.

(uR, this is for you, too. Forgot to address it in my response to you) Let me be clear, we didn't discuss "our" honeymoon. A week or two ago, she happened to mention, in a group setting, her ideal honeymoon. She wasn't even talking directly to me, just gabbing with friends. It just happens to coincide with what I'd always dreamt of. We've never discussed any of this. Not sure why I mentioned it here other than the fact that I don't really have anyone IRL that I'm sharing this kind of detail with about this sitch. Guys at work just want me to join Tinder so they can hear lots of stories, family is kind of close to sis' friend, etc. That's why I turn to you guys! Neutral, unfiltered opinions. I'm grateful for you

And the step-parenting thing...she mentioned it because:

- She doesn't want to date anyone who she knows that she wouldn't potentially marry due to a "deal-breaker" issue. Not interested in wasting her time dating someone who she knows she wouldn't at least potentially marry.

- She'd never considered the possibility of being a step-mom. IF she eventually started dating me, she would have to be okay with potentially being a step-mom. So it's just something she's been weighing, although she thinks, in this case, it would not be a problem. She mentioned it since we were airing out everything we'd thought about.

2. A lot of divorced men rebound into the first relationship with a younger pretty woman they can find as a way to prove to reclaim their self respect and show their ex-wife that they are the man. Divorce rates for 2nd marriages are higher than first marriage AND third marriages for MANY reasons. SLOW DOWN.

I really feel like I'm past the rebound stage. I'm not rushing into anything anymore. I have to admit that I did go through that "I need to prove something to myself (and others, to an extent) by dating/flirting with an amazing girl." I'm past that, though. My most recent dates have been with great women, but I've enjoyed them for the sake of enjoying them, not proving anything.

Obviously I did a poor job of communicating this in my post about our "talk", but the theme of the entire night is that we both agree to slow down, not that we were moving insanely fast to begin with. We've had one kiss. We *aren't* going to date right now and I am not a bit anxious for when or even IF it will happen. Three months ago I was patient to wait, but I was on pins and needles for "IF" it would happen because I was madly infatuated with her. That intensity has passed and now I'm "detached", to steal a DB term. I'm being honest when I say if she started a committed R to another guy, and it lasted, I would be disappointed but not crushed. Couldn't have said the same thing 3 months ago. The other dates I've had lately have shown me that there are plenty of women out there that I could be happy with. I only need to find one ("need" being a generous term), so if it doesn't work out with sis' friend, then it wasn't meant to happen and I'll move on fairly easily.

3. I'm not saying this might not be a great fit for you and for her and that the odds have to apply to you but get divorced and date around a bit before committing to the first shiny thing you find. You are only 29. Second marriage success is like 30% in 10 years. You don't want to be a 40 year with two ex-wives already paying child support to two women.

- I'm fully aware of the stats, and I know I'm still young (although I did just turn 30, need to update my signature). I'm not in a hurry and left her house so happy about our discussion. We're both interested, see the fit, yet we both agree that we shouldn't date right now. And yes, I have been enjoying dates with other women, which I believe has been a factor in getting me from rebound/crush/intense/blind-infatuation phase with sis' friend to how I currently feel, which is much more reasonable.

4. Your feelings regarding potential recovery with your stbxw diminishing is no surprise. Your love tank for her is draining into your sister's friends love tank at an alarming rate.

- My love tank for STBX started draining last June when she stopped fulfilling my ENs. It was empty in December, around when I had my lightswitch moment. And yes, I "fell for" or "rebounded" to my sister's friend around that time (late December). But between January and early April, I only saw her once. In the meantime, I went on dates with 2-3 other girls, and detached from sis's friend. Right now my "love tank" is not consumed by anyone in particular. I'm single, I'm a dad, and I'm enjoying everyday. Me and her and hangout non-romantically and have a ball. I can't say that for one or two of the other girls I've hung out with.

GET DIVORCED FIRST.

Agreed, although I'm more cautious due to timing and readiness, not whether or not some paperwork has been filled out yet. But it's in the works. Actually mailing out a form today.

Typically (I'm not insulting your new friend that I don't know she may really be great) the most healthy well adjusted marriage material women wouldn't date a still married man if their lives depended on it. You've gone through a huge trauma the last year. Think about this...if your sister was interested in a guy in your exact current situation, would you want her pursuing it???

That's a wise perspective too look from. I would be concerned about her readiness just like I am with sis's friend. Whether or not paperwork was finished would depend on context. Am I ready? Eh I'm not 100% sure, but it's not like our papers were filed in the heat of the moment during her A and early stages of our S. Maybe it sounds cold but the D feels more like paperwork than anything else at this point.

Like I said, I guess I didn't make it clear - but I'm sure sis's friend isn't ready. I had that thought going into the night and was relieved to know she realized it before I even said it. So right now, no, I don't want to pursue her, I don't want her to pursue me, and I wouldn't want my sis to pursue anyone if she wasn't ready, either. I suspect she needs at least this summer to really figure it out, and maybe even uR's original warning should be heeded: 2015 should be "off-limits" between the two of us. In an ideal world...

I really do appreciate your time and honest words. I wouldn't spend time here if I knew you guys wouldn't be honest. I've turned here with this sitch because I realized I don't have a wise, neutral POV from anyone IRL. So thank you!! And keep the 2x4's coming if necessary