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I am doing this while I should be working, so I hope you know this I am taking this seriously and do care about your sitch...First- please read my post to Smothy on her thread, page 4, 6:01AM. The card game. Then read the rest of my post...I'll wait for you smile

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When you say "I am not willing to be his backup plan or treated cruelty, which is what he is doing" I agree to a point. You need to have boundaries, and if he treats you poorly you need to respond in a way that respects yourself.

What you want to do, however, is have COMPASSION for him, understand he is reacting to tremendous pain in his heart that he feels was caused by the way YOU treated HIM.

In fact, his actions are his way of saying HE is not willing to be treated cruelly, which is what YOU were doing.

So go easy on the "not being a back up plan" and "not being treated cruelly" thing. You're 100% correct to take some actions to protect yourself and enforce your boundaries, but please be very careful about doing it out of necessity to care for yourself and stand up for your spiritual beliefs, and NOT to try to control or punish his behavior. Not an easy balance, and I'm sorry if I didn't explain it well.

As for whether you can show your H you can change, and if it's too late...yes you can show him, no it is not too late.

First tip, drop the porn thing. BUT ONLY FOR NOW. See, now is not the time to bring up your grievances in the M. It's not that you don't have the right to your feelings, and that they aren't valid, and that if you were going to R you'd have some things to work through and changes you'd need to see as well...but now is NOT the right time. My DB coach said "not voicing any of my needs and validating everything my WAW says and bending over backwards is not going to be the long term model for our future M if we R...but it is the model for this moment. That will change when WAW is truly ready to recommit to the M and do some real work. At that point we can start voicing my needs as well. But right now I have to carry the full weight of the R". So bringing up porn, etc...

I know you are trying to show him that you had REASONS for doing what you did, and trying to get him to see that he was accountable for a LOT of the problems, because you are convinced that if he understood you were a good loving woman and his behavior was responsible for some of the breakdown, then maybe he'd be open to trying...but he doesn't hear that. What he hears is that you're excusing neglecting him for years, and it just proves to him that you think it's ok to have treated you that way. In his mind this is proof that he can't trust you to meet his needs. Again, like not feeding a dog, and then telling it that "I know I didn't feed you, but you were digging in the back yard, that hurt me and made me not want to feed you". For a dog that was starving (and could think and talk LOL) it would tough to feel safe coming back if you think that not feeding it was ever ok, excusable, or debatable.

So drop all of your issues with him for now. And understand that his behavior is at it's worse in large part because of the pain in his heart from your behavior. HE IS STILL RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS ACTIONS, AND YOU STILL NEED GOOD BOUNDARIES...just don't judge him too much right now, and really focus on you.

OK- so that's what not to do...how do you demonstrate your willingness to change? Quite simply, by changing. Actually, doing the above is quite a big step in the right direction.

See, if you can even understand 30% of how important this aspect of the M was to him, and can find compassion for his pain, his behavior, and can focus on yourself only as opposed to his role in all of this...THAT BY ITSELF MAY BE ENOUGH.

You don't even have to tell him. If you can truly reach that point it will come out non-verbally through your body language, your reactions, your behavior. All of that follows your belief. Little things, like when he does something that is nasty and you don't react hurt because you have compassion...that proves you've changed. When he talks about how hurt he was and you can validate him sincerely and talk about how you wish you could have done things differently because you've spent a lot of time learning from men in sex starved marriages how undermined, disrespected, unappreciated they feel, and how you wish you'd made that a #1 priority and been more adventurous and passionate while you had the chance...wow, that would spin his eyes around in his socket.

But none of that will come across if you don't get there first. I feel you are trying to see how important is was to him, and focus on your role. Keep going down this path. It is much, much, much more important that you think, and you are still reeling from your own pain from his behavior.

So as a follow up I would suggest reading posts from men the "sex starved marriage" section, or google searching "why do men need sex" online. DAILY. I would spend 30 minutes daily learning how it feels to men. Seriously. That and really working on compassion and forgiveness for the pain he's caused and is still causing.

If you can do that HE WILL BE ABLE TO TELL. And as a man that was on the verge of walking away for YEARS for this very reason, I can tell you that if my W had done that I would've been the happiest guy on the planet. Instead we went YEARS at a time without sex, and we went through 3-6 month periods where we didn't even SPEAK because we were both so hurt it was too painful to even interact. Yeah, pretty big difference around one issue.

Hope this helps, keep going!


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
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Hi Zues,

Thanks for responding while at work, but don't want you to get in trouble. Last any of us need in this sitch is career issues on top of marriage issues. frown

You have given me some excellent advice, so thank you. It is helpful that there is someone on here with a similar perspective to what my H is going through. The card analogy is brilliant!

I will work on showing and truly feeling compassion and empathy for my H. I think I did that through the apology letter I wrote for him. His response to letter was that I did not need to do that and he thinks I think I am entirely to blame for our sitch. Maybe at this stage letter too needy, but DB coach encouraged it. think I am getting there.

What I am having trouble with is balancing detaching with showing compassion. I keep hearing others say I need to completely detach. Ok, I get that, but not sure how much I should respond when he then starts to pursue/initiate. If I don't respond enough/wait for him for to initiate he thinks I am angry. I am also going to seem withdrawn. If I respond too much, then I feel I am condoning his withdrawal/no contact and not protecting myself and my feelings. Where is the balance and how do I respond? How do I set these boundaries? Just in my actions or verbally as well? I feel like any of that can come off as being needy. This is the part I am having the hardest part with.

Thanks again for providing your insight!
_________________________________
BW

Me:44 H:41
M and still living together
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OK, just got an email from MWD's DB email campaign saying she has a Youtube video on "the sex starved marriage". An H that just couldn't get through to his W sent her this video and I guess it turned things around. Your homework for tonight, hunt that video down and watch it. I'll do the same. smile

Back to your questions...again, you have to sort out what's a boundary, vs what's a reaction.

So if he is sleeping with another woman. That would be a boundary issue.
If he is calling you profane names. Boundary.
If he is lying to you about finances. Boundary.

Those would require immediate action. Not vindictive or punitive. But adjustments to protect yourself.

However, if when he doesn't text/email you it hurts your feelings and you don't like it, so you think he's being mean...
If him saying he doesn't know what he wants makes you shaky so you think you shouldn't let him treat you this way...
If he's not telling you where he's going and you feel mistrustful and feel the need to express you're not ok with that...

Those are your feelings. They are valid and real, but this isn't the time for them to run your ship. Right now you need to acknowledge them to yourself so you don't go crazy, but then you need to transcend that and act according to your HIGHER LEVEL beliefs, such as you believe in standing by your M.

PS- the stuff about him not blaming you for your failed M isn't necessarily correct. He may just feel you are "incompatible". He won't blame you because he might believe it wasn't within your control, that's just "how you are". So it's not your fault, it's just you'll obviously never be the kind of woman who he can be safe with because you're wired so differently it just couldn't work. That's how he might be viewing that.

Remember, don't try to talk him out of that with words. Do it with actually changing. I'm not joking about the homework! smile


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
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Zues,

Ok, will do my homework.

PS- the stuff about him not blaming you for your failed M isn't necessarily correct. He may just feel you are "incompatible". He won't blame you because he might believe it wasn't within your control, that's just "how you are". So it's not your fault, it's just you'll obviously never be the kind of woman who he can be safe with because you're

Up to this point, my H has been putting all blame on me due to my personality. Has not admitted to any issues until recently, but does not necessarily recognize or verbalize those issues. So yes, exactly as you indicated, he thinks we should possibly end marriage due to incompatibility. My silver lining, unless he is just stalling, is that he is conflicted on whether divorce or making marriage work is right answer. He wants to make sure he is making right decision. I have the gift of time.

Can't wait to watch the video.


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And already a step towards becoming the W only a fool would leave. Taking time to try to understand his point of view, accepting that it is valid even if it seems so different, respecting him even when you don't feel good about the sitch, that is something only a dream W does. Keep it up!

Last edited by Zues126; 04/30/15 08:41 PM.

Me:38 XW:38
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Watched video. All I can say is WOW. The couple she mentioned is totally my H and I. I honestly never realized that I have been making my H feel that way for so many years. My H does not believe me when I tell him my lack of desire never meant that I did not love him, he was unattractive, or undesirable. Now, I can certainly empathize why he feels that way. Truly was only thinking about me. Makes me very sad.

tried to link video but it won't work.


Last edited by BW05; 04/30/15 09:29 PM.

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Great advice Zues. BW, this is a long journey and Zues brings alot of perspective on personal growth which is central to the DB experience.

I'm however becoming part of the jilted camp. I'll watch your sitch and hope that you don't go down the path of behaviors I have had to implement.

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I just watched the video too. Funny you mentioned it was eye opening. To me, I felt it didn't even scratch the surface. She talked about the pain of rejection. Think about the pain we feel at BD. How every time you get an email you secretly hope it's the one saying they realized they made a mistake. How each day you wake up and remember that your M is over. That each night you wish there was something you could do to reconnect.

That's how I felt for YEARS in my R. Every day. Eventually I withdrew, played pool, worked, paid the bills. It undermined me to the core. I was disconnected from my children. I thought for years about ending my life. I kept thinking about the love I had for my W, but I couldn't share it because I felt perpetually rejected, and misunderstood. I felt like she couldn't love me because she didn't even know who I was because she didn't understand to the right magnitude of 100 how important it was to me...or she did understand in which case she just didn't care. Again, it hurt so much I just avoided her altogether. We probably had 3 YEARS IN WHICH WE DIDN'T SPEAK. And those who know me on this board know me (hopefully) to be a very sensitive and loving person.

Was this WAW's fault. That's NOT what I'm saying. As the video states, I have a job to do as well. I didn't do my job. I did hurtful things to try to control or force her at times. I withdrew to protect myself, but also to punish or to try to "wake her up" to the pain I was in. To make the situation as much a priority to her as it was to me. I used pornography. And I wasn't there for her. So that was my contribution to our M downfall. I'm honestly not here pointing the finger at my STBX. I can't expect her to live to a standard of marriage I couldn't keep myself. FURTHERMORE, I recognize that she felt JUST AS MUCH pain from my reactions as I EVER did during these years, which is why she finally threw in the towel. So I totally get why she left me.

But since you're here I'll tell you that while I can't blame my behavior on her, it was more than I was able to deal with at that point in my life. And I failed. I didn't have an affair, I didn't walk away from my M. And though I was a bad H I actually felt like a SAINT for still being there, providing for my family, when I felt like I was being tortured every day. And the fact is that had she somehow been able to be a better W than I was an H, we might've made it through.

For me, all I really wanted was two things:
1. Careful with rejection. I understand that we can't ML every time I want. But if she knew how deeply it wounded me when I was rejected coldly, instead maybe she could use the following formula: "Honey, I love you. I can't ML right now, but not because I don't love you, it's because ABC factors. However, I know exactly how important this is to you, and if it's important to you, it's important to me. How about tomorrow you come home from work for lunch and I make it up to you?"
2. Follow through. Flirt a bit, send a few exotic texts, and make it up to me tomorrow at lunch.

If she did those two things I could've lived off relatively little actual sex, simply because I would've felt understood and cared for. Of course, sometimes I'd like a little binge with some excitement and adventure, but if that was worked in occasionally I would be just fine with even a strained sex life.

The biggest point is if she would acknowledge how I was feeling and make it more of a priority. So just a few dirty jokes, or some flirting, to let me know that she was aware of how much I needed her, how much pain I was in without her, and then taking care of me when circumstance dictated she could.

OK. This is probably the most I've ever posted on how I felt about it, and what I was longing for. So again, I'm not pointing at STBX. I tore up my scorecard. I've forgiven her for being no better at M than I was. And I have my own problems to contend with.

This was more to try to determine how I'd like my future R to look, and to really build on how significant it was in my M. Oh, and after years of feeling misunderstood it's nice to just spit this out. I'll admit, this is therapeutic for me.

The good news is I'm in a point where I feel like I could do much, much better if I went through a similar challenge in my next M. But to be fair, at some point I don't know that I'd ever feel like I was happily M if my partner couldn't meet me some of the way as well.

Thanks for listening and for being openminded. Keep reflecting on this daily. HE WILL NOTICE wink


Me:38 XW:38
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Have to confess that I have only quickly scanned your above posts but I jumped over to this thread after reading some stuff on JellyB's thread. This was was a big issue in our R too and I hope we may all learn something through talking about it.

A few of disclaimers:
1. I'm a woman with what I suspect is a normal sex drive (probably above normal based on what I read), but I was the "low desire spouse" in our relationship
2. I have a PhD (totally unrelated to the subject matter...but I get the pressures there and experienced my own little MLC just after finishing)
3. I'm far from saving my M...but I have learned a lot though this debacle

So....the thing I have come to understand through all of this is that men and women are different and no one benefits by making the other person feel like there is something wrong with them when they don't want sex.

Zues I hear you - my H evidently felt the same. We had some painful conversations where he told me he felt that way. At the time all I could do (like you BW) was say you shouldn't feel that way - I love you, I'm attracted to you, I'm not deliberately withholding from you, it's just that my body doesn't work like yours and I don't feel like it right now. I didn't validate his feelings and I acknowledge that now and feel very sad about it. But I was honest about my feelings and he didn't validate those either. In fact, H labelled me as the low desire spouse so much so that he couldn't see that - like him - I actually genuinely wanted more sex. We were totally stuck in this dynamic. His watching porn did not help (not that I was particularly against it, but that he evidently turned to it instead of me).

Here's what I want to convey - there is something not quite motivating enough about the message that women should "just do it" (tomorrow at lunch say). I just don't think it works that way. If it did, all I would be doing is letting you use my body. That doesn't make me feel so great. Would it make you feel great as the man knowing that was what I was doing? Or would you rather I actually be really into you when we ML? A lot of the sex books seem to push the "just do it" message. Like we should "just do it" and if we can't then there is something medically wrong with us. Well that idea doesn't make my juices flow either...

BW05 - if this is an area you want to work on then I recommend you check out the books by David Schnarch. He presents a different message - that there is a "high desire spouse" and "low desire spouse" on every issue in a relationship. The low desire spouse controls the outcome - be that having sex, having kids, etc. Like even now - the WAS is the low desire spouse - they are controlling the outcome, yes? The low desire partner has a choice - dig in their heals and commit to their way of things or they accept their partners way of things and learn not to feel resentment. Somehow by seeing this as the natural balance of things I feel more able to take on the sex issue as a matter of my own integrity. It doesn't evoke the usual "there is something wrong with me" mentality (cos that doesn't make me feel particularly sexy), rather "I can grow and deal with this" mentality. I only wish I had discovered these books before BD.

Zues - same for you. Check out Schnarch. Maybe there are other areas where you were the low-desire spouse and failed to move yourself forward in a way that made it easier for your wife to connect with you? Maybe that's why she couldn't have sex more frequently with you?


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Hi Gan,

My experience is that men with low drive masturbate often. You might want to check if he is into pornography.

I've learned that porn is an addiction like alcohol. It is used to self medicate.

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