It's a nightmare. Wake me up 2

[Cadet]

Has anyone an idea?
My main question is: How to communicate, when W is always polite and friendly, but still clear with her approach? Is the rule still valid: Don't belive anything she says and only 50% of what you hear."?
She seems to be so final with her decision.

The quote is dont believe anything she says and 50% of what she does!
Another words believe her ACTIONS over her WORDS.
Yes I would say that to almost anyone.
I believe peoples Actions over their words and even more so when they are divorcing you and lying most all the time.
Maybe she is lying about being so nice.

Yes their decisions are final....until they change their mind.
They are working on emotion and their emotions can change.

[Sotto]

Hi Koalada, it's common for people to be final with their decision. And of course the more we push, the more they feel the need to defend, and the more final it gets.

I would just keep your eyes and ears open in terms of possible OM, because the DB approach does change if there's an OP on the scene.

Certainly the rule is valid, but it's - don't believe anything she says and only 50% of what she does...

In terms of communication, I would respond briefly and pleasantly, but have your own plans and don't linger with her. And don't initiate R talks. If she has said she wants to D, you are in LRT I would say. Maybe go back and have a look at that content in the books...

[koalada]

W. is close to a nervous breakdown. She blames it on my presence in the house and she feels helpless, because I would make things more difficult as they had to be.
Tomorrow she is going to see a psychiatrist because of her emotional conditions.
She has been in a bad emotional state, before I have moved back. She has always been exhausted and depressed, nearly every time I have seen her. So it can not be only my presence, but she says so.

Her financial problems are also growing. She even had to ask me for extra money and I know that has not been easy for her.

Do you think it would be e necessary move for me to leave the house again? So that she does not get a nervous breakdown? I really do not want to push her over the cliff.

[MrBond]

"Do you think it would be e necessary move for me to leave the house again? So that she does not get a nervous breakdown? I really do not want to push her over the cliff."

None of that is your fault. In fact, you actually gave her money. She is just looking at you as an excuse because she can't deal with the reality that it's really her that's the problem.

[25yearsmlc]

My guts tell me, that an OM is somewhere and that she is looking for reasons to justify the D. Should I think about this sitch more or should I be less conversational the next time?

You know Not to do the mind reading, but now you are asking us to interpret and mind read, for you. That's not helpful. You have mentioned in numerous places that you were not reliable in the marriage, that you could not make decisions on your own and were codependent, and that you were not the "captain of the ship" and the ship went in no direction.

Now, you seem to have decided that "there must be an OM somewhere".

uh, Maybe, but here are 2 comments.

1) It is very rare for a married woman with children, to leave a marriages - unless there are serious issues within the marriage; And

In your case you have already admitted that there were some big issues inside the marriage;

2) So why would you now spend your energy on what you do NOT know, when you can spend your energy on changing yourself?

There will be a few people here who insist you should snoop. DBing does NOT support that, but I won't say there is zero validity to it.

I just think you have a lot of work you can do that would put the focus on yourself, where it can do some real good, and you are all you can change.

IF you believe that an affair would absolutely end your marriage, then there Might be a reason to snoop but

if you are prepared to make the change anyhow, and an affair is not an absolute deal breaker,

why not keep the focus on where it will have the most/only effect; Yourself??

Sometimes there are LBSers who really start to dig deep and look within, and they begin the road toward overhauling the way they have been interacting, they start to become the people they were meant to become,

when suddenly they decide or discover that an affair is likely -- and then suddenly,

they decide they were great spouses! They have nothing to work on.

Gee, now It's ALL about the OM/OW and then, the growth and self improvement just comes to a screeching halt.

That's a tragedy. I realize it is easier to blame others for the problems that belong on our own shoulders; God knows it's a lot easier. But it's not likely to lead to a reconciliation and it prevents deep inward searches and growth. Those are some of the goals of DBing.

Put the focus back on you. Stop the mind reading, be polite and follow the "rules" (not so much rules as guidelines. If a few don't apply to your situation, then don't apply them. Use your common sense and then stick to the ones that you know help)


Tough love? Any concrete ideas for upcoming conversations?

Not sure what you mean by "tough love". You said you won't move out. So don't. No need for more WORDS. You said earlier that you talk too much.

Maybe that's true so maybe a noticeable change for your wife to see, would be for you to say Less, and Do more (or react Less).

Do you get that?

Should I care about my guts?

By this,^^ do you mean should you A:) Mind read; and then: B) Act based on your assumptions?

In my opinion, NO to both.

That I think she is not honest to me and just wants me to help her to end this M without a lot of trouble?

No, again for two reasons. You are confusing your FEARS with knowledge and they are not the same.

Second, even if your unproved fears are reality, that she "just wants" you to "help her end this marriage without a lot of trouble"

What would you do about that? Stomp and yell? Cry and plead? Bully her?

What effective difference would any of that make? Behave, always, with dignity and you will have far fewer regrets. Keep working on yourself and

Protect your legal interests and act with the calm confidence of a man who is doing what he beleves is right and who knows that sometimes, that knowledge is enough.

That others do NOT have to agree with him for him to stay the course. Be a man who does not take polls to guide his inner choices.

Am I too dumb to understand her POV? If she is not honest to me, I have no desire to talk to her again.

You may never know if she is being honest with you. But know this.

Her feelings may be confusing TO HER. And they will change, so what she says one day may be what she feels at that moment in time

but change the next day/week/month. And there will be times she is not sure, so she may say something only partly true OR she may want to protect your heart

or hurt you, and say something she knows that is not true in that moment.

But, don't we all have those moments? It's not like she's perjuring herself in court and swearing that the marriage was "always a lie".

You need to learn that we ALL have ambiguity in our lives (it's inherent in life) and in our marriages b/c our spouses can change, or die,l

and tomorrow is promised to no one. The key here is to learn to live with that ambiguity and maybe learn to embrace it.

When we operate in Fear, we are Not operating in Faith.

[Zues126]

Ha! 25! There you are! I was just talking about you, how I learned to stay in my sandbox

I posted on another thread that the biggest threat to the LBS's growth is the WAS's behavior...because the WAS DOES act poorly enough that the LBS can justify get distracted from the only task at hand. THEMSELVES.

Marriage is dead forever. Can't control her behavior or her coming back. The circle you can and should focus on is right around YOU. Not to try to cling to controlling her. Just for you. No matter what she does. Eyes on you. Like climbing, don't look down! Hands on the rock. Task at hand. It's not easy, but nothing worth having is, and your growth and peace of mind is worth it.

[koalada]

Well, I am ashamed right now, because you are totally right and spot on.
I have read, that many problems start with the denial of responsibility, that leads to delusion (creating an alternative reality), and that leads to blame shifting. So here we are.

I became self righteous during the last days and lost track of my path. There are plenty of changes I have to do and already started with some. I am applying for full time jobs, take more responsibility for making decisions, try to follow your advice, go to IC for my problems. I do not say this to impress any one, but to remind myself of the fact, that there are plenty of things I have to deal with and CAN deal with.

But the nervous breakdown thing is very challenging for me, because I know how that feels and I do not want to cause stuff like that in anyone.

I will print out your replies and read them again in the upcoming days. Thank you!! I am so glad, that you folks exist. This help means a lot to me.

[koalada]

Today W asked again for my support to end this M. She said, that I could not ask her to stay in a relationship, she does not want to stay in. I have told her, that I respect her POV, but that she can not ask me, to help her to tear this family in two parts. I have to do, what I think is right and serves and protects the family. My opinion is as valid as hers.
I was clear and polite. She said, she was already working on a way to get two households, without me being part of the process. She would organize everything, but expects me not to put any stones in her way.

I do not want to take the responsibility for her decisions.

Btw. She wants to borrow my new car (a used one) for her study weekends. I am not sure what to do about this. She is talking about "our car". There would be an advantage to a shared car. In Germany you have to live separated for one year, before you can make a divorce final. As long as we are using the same stuff, eating out of one fridge and share stuff and responsibilities for the household, the separation year does not start.

[RAI]

Koalada,

I have not visited your thread in a while. I feel like I am missing something. Perhaps you or some of the other folks who are familiar with your sitch can shed light or bring me up to speed.

Is your W begging you for a D? How is it not in your best interests to D? Is it consistent with detaching and DB principles to refuse your Ws request for a D? Why do you want to be married to someone who is so hellbent on D? Are you not controlling your W by refusing to cooperate on the D? How does it help your R to keep her in the M against her will?

Will someone tell me whether I am way off base?

RAI

[25yearsmlc]

RAI

You raise a valid point but DBing is sort of about walking fine lines.

We don't want to "assist" in doing things we don't believe in BUT sure, there may come a point that its' a fruitless endeavor or worse, against our own interests.

And stubbornness is NOT the same as "standing" but the two can easily be confused.

I think there's a balance to be found somewhere

in between enabling/helping a decision to be implemented, which we do Not believe in -

and stubbornly insisting that a reality is false...