Trying to Follow DB & DR (3)

[Miman2]

The story thus far...(1)
Previously in TTF DB&DR (2)

Getting back to some good questions people raised before...

She was trying and it seemed you blocked her at every turn out of resentment for old texts that went unreturned?
But MWD wrote every action moves you closer to goal (which is what for you in next week?)or away, so perhaps an important consideration as you look your next encounter.

On the bright side, she stayed longer than it seems she had to and was pursuing you a bit, no?

I dunno what she was really doing. She kept asking why I never reached out. I was in LRT so I was I wasn't reaching out and she kept asking why. So I told her that I was trying to give her what she wanted and that when we first separated I was trying to reach out to her and she would ignore me so why would I reach out to her.

She seems interested in me reaching out to her more, but she also mentioned that she wants us to be friends. So while I would like to reach out to be able to spend more time with her I don't feel like she's committed to saving the relationship/marriage yet.

She said she would contact me this week about going to lunch or dinner on Monday but it's been radio silence so far. I'm hoping she does but no expectations. If we do get to go to dinner/lunch then I'd like it to be just a friendly, no talk about R/W, talking about day type meal.

Other than that I'm heading out of town for an on site interview. I haven't told her I'm heading out of town. I don't feel like I don't have any real obligation to tell her. Other than being "nice" and letting her come spend time with the cats.

She did seem to be in a little bit of pursuit. It was weird at one point when she was here last we were talking and smiling and laughing together about some prospect of a new job she's looking at. Felt just like before BD.

As Zelda just mentioned, all the emotions you are feeling, and keep in mind that we all have felt them, are valid. That being said...What are you doing to work on them? I mean honestly work on them.
In your recent interactions, I saw anger and resentment. Half the time it sounded like you were in a battle. How is that attractive? How does that move you forward? Did it work? Or is it a cheeseless tunnel?
Read Wonka's boundaries cheat sheet and apply it. What do you really want to save? What is part of the above battles? Where are YOUR non-negotiables? Pick the few that really are boundaries and stick with them.

I'm trying to work on things. I'm working through the Codependent no more workbook. I'm also looking to go to a CoDA group on Monday evening. I'm trying to branch out my GAL activities as well. I went to a community theater show today. Made me think about maybe trying out for a show or something.

Resentment did bubble up a bit. Friends who were supporting me at the beginning kept saying that things would be easier if I just had some answers from her and that keeps rattling around in my head. I know the answers don't change anything about how she's feeling, but I guess I keep thinking they would give me direction.

That's still part of my dilemma. I classify her as a WAW, but then occasionally resentment bubbles up and all of a sudden she's a WW. As a WW I thought the general advice was to cut off all support to her. So while I feel she has every right to necessities and I would love to support her the fact that she left and doesn't (yet) want to work on things still stings and leaves me clueless as what to really do.

There was a recommendation to me to check out Rosenberg's giraffe and jackal speech. I came here with jackal mindset and it is any time we are violent in our communication - over insistent and aggressive. No one wins with this.
Did you engage with your W this way?

Thanks, I'll add this to my reading list while I'm on my trip.
My job requires me to work this way. Its funny coworkers used to say they couldn't turn work off when they went home. I thought they were talking about the actual content of work, seems like I take home a work mentality. She would say (often) that I was condescending but I never understood why she would say that. She watches Benedict Cumberbatch do it as Sherlock and she loves it. But I suppose I'm in a spot where I'm just as lonely as he his because of this "have to be right" mentality.

[Zelda09]

Yeah! Good stuff.

Give it a week or two and go back and read some of the stuff on your last thread. I think you'll see the condescending very clearly if you read it as tho a stranger wrote it.

Here's a question for you to go deeper with. Condescending stuff is actually a defense formed as attack. Does the thought that you are flat out wrong (doesn't matter about what) itch at you and burn you? Do you feel the need to defend yourself if there's a chance you could be perceived that way?

[MrBond]

"She would say (often) that I was condescending but I never understood why she would say that."

Yes I believe we all can see that now. When people first come on here posting their stories, they often don't write about who they truly are or truly behaved towards their WAS. Over time, their true nature comes out and in your case, you can very condescending. Funny how you never mentioned it till now.

That is one of the biggest issues you have to learn to correct if you want your W back. No one wants to be with someone who makes them feel stupid or not appreciated.

Have you actually tried looking into changing this behavior for good? I mean it tends to show up in your posts, so I don't know if that's something you want to change.

[Miman2]

Zelda09:

Like I mentioned it's part of my job to be right about things that few people know anything about. When someone has a misconception about something, it's part of my job to correct them, with proof, logic and reasoning to back myself up. I've been wrong LOTS of times, does it bug me? No, not as the other person has the proof, logic, and reasoning to back themselves up.

The thought of being flat out wrong doesn't bother me, as long as there's something to back it up. Having someone just say I'm wrong without any proof, reasoning or arguments to back up the statement does wear on me though.

So I can see that maybe if someone just says I'm wrong without stating why then I can become defensive by trying to back up myself with proof, reasoning, and arguments.

If I think back on things I think my problem lies more in me feeling that other people are wrong. It bugs me if they have some misunderstanding and I have proof to the contrary.

Case in point:

Yes I believe we all can see that now. When people first come on here
posting their stories, they often don't write about who they truly are
or truly behaved towards their WAS. Over time, their true nature comes
out and in your case, you can [be] very condescending. Funny how you never
mentioned it till now

That is really funny! I laughed SO hard!!!
But then I stopped because I did mention it before.

I would spend several hours each night playing video games which she would eventually join in on. She’s called me controlling and condescending. She’s complained that I don’t participate in taking care of the apartment and cats.

See!! That's been bothering since I read MrBond's reply. Maybe he forgot, maybe he didn't read that part, I dunno. But he made an incorrect statement, I have the proof that it is an incorrect statement, so I feel compelled to point it out. Is it a defensive mechanism against me feeling like I'm wrong? Maybe. It doesn't feel like it's a direct attack saying that I'm wrong. Maybe I feel attacked and then I put up a shield of truth against the sword of truthiness.

"Truthiness is a quality characterizing a "truth" that a person making an argument or assertion claims to know intuitively "from the gut" or because it "feels right" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts."

Don't get me wrong, the nice guy in me will let friends slide with being flat out wrong when they're talking to me. No harm, no foul on their part. If I don't agree or know them to be wrong I feign ignorance saying something like "gee, I'm not really sure what to think about that" or "oh really? I didn't know that". Usually it would be brought up later between me and the W, each of us agreeing that so-and-so incorrectly brought up such-and-such.

Maybe I held my W to a different standard. I felt like she was brilliant and if she did say something I felt was wrong, I felt we could/should talk about it together. There are lots of instances where I've asked her for a better understanding of things and where she's corrected me when I was wrong. I never felt like she was being condescending.

Even if she didn't immediately see my point about something, she would go about doing or thinking whatever it was I thought was wrong and she had freedom to do so.

Things would usually work out in a way that she would realize I was right in the first place. It got to the point where she would say things along the lines of "when I'm in doubt, you are right" and "miman's always right".

As for behaving in a forum, well I guess John Gabriel's G.I.F.T. tends to be true.

As for what to do about it... that's a good question.
Maybe treating more people and my W more like I would my friends.
Feigning ignorance and keeping my opinion to myself.
Is this rolling over and clamming up, choosing my battles more carefully, or a little bit of both?
I would guess that depends on the situation.

[MrBond]

I'm glad that you found my comment so amusing. In your extremely long posts, you've mentioned it once in this sentence.

" She’s called me controlling and condescending."

And you just mentioned it in a casual manner describing what she said before. As I pointed out, was this a behavior you plan to change?

Your current condescending response to me doesn't seem to show that.

[zew]

Minman,

Bond keeps baiting you, and you keep coming back on the defensive. What, for about 8 rounds now? I'm getting dizzy.

Look, it doesn't matter if you're right, wrong or indifferent, or whether you can back up your points with facts. It really doesn't.

You've heard the expression "Perception is reality." It is. It's not fair or right, it flies in the face of facts and reasoning, but if I have learned anything in life, that is true.

No matter what your intent, or the merits of your arguments, you come across as condescending, with an extra thick layer of sarcasm.

So you can go another 10 rounds with Bond, or you can start looking into the behavior.

Things would usually work out in a way that she would realize I was right in the first place. It got to the point where she would say things along the lines of "when I'm in doubt, you are right" and "minman's always right".

Yikes - she was totally defeated. She had given up. Alarms sounding.

So the challenge for you is how to suppress you urge to prove you are the smartest guy in the room, whether justified or not, nit-picking over minutia, because people, including your W, find it off-putting.

Determine just how badly you need people to acknowledge that you are right. Then, weigh that against how much you'd like them to just be there.

[Fogg]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Minman, I would have to agree with all of this as-well. You do come across this way in how you have been interacting with MrBond.

How you think the situation comes across isn't as important as how the other receives it at times. Right or wrong, they are entitled to their opinions and feelings and if your W has said the above quoted, you have some work to do.

Regardless of the specifics of how MrBond is saying something to you, you seem to be missing the elephant in the room. You keep coming back round after round to prove him wrong or discredit his methods. Does it really matter if his criticism fits the definition or if he has stated something incorrectly? He is using this conversation to show you how you react in these situations so that you can see it first hand. Yes, you have admitted to some of the flaws in your posts, but you still continue to fight it.

I would disagree with what you said before about your main issue. You stated before you feel your main issue is that your always right and others are wrong. I think the more important point to make, that you keep overlooking, is your urge to correct them in general conversation. Your defense mechanism for this kicks in so strong that you latch onto the portion of the conversation you see as incorrect and ignore the larger point of your own reaction to it.

I realize from reading this I have done similar things with my W before, thought not to this extent. I don't have to agree with her opinions on something, or even why she has them. However, I do need to respect the fact that she is thinking or feeling a certain way, because she has a right to them.

[Vanilla]

The issue seems to me to be

"I need to be right and others wrong"

No matter what the issue is.

There is an expression : would you like to be happy or right?

V

[Zelda09]

Dear Miman, the only point I can add is this observation -

You seem to believe in a truth or correct thing to be latched onto, that truth must always be backed with facts and it is to be wrestled for. Perhaps in your line of work this is the framework you live in.

I'd encourage you to think not in polarities of right or wrong outside of work.

To consider that some truths come from the gut - and there can be many truths in a room.

That no one person gets a blue ribbon for being able to win the correct and sensical look at things!

What would happen if you approached those 'wrong' points of view - and people such as Mr. Bond - and worked your butt off to make them make sense to you; to find how that person arrived at their conclusion? To explain their reasoning and feel it as deeply and with conviction as intense as your own? To find it valid and share understanding of how they got there? You would create harmony and good feelings with the people in your life. Not the same thing as politely nodding if you don't agree with your friends, but actively sharing in their point of view.

I always liked this quote - the mark of an educated mind is in being able to entertain an idea.

[Miman2]

Thanks Zelda, that makes a lot of sense.

Journaling:

So I'm out of town on a job interview. Just stepping in the airport was depressing because we were supposed to go on vacation together before BD, and it brought up thoughts of her going on that vacation without me.

The interview in a much smaller town that I'm used to. That in itself feels really depressing (it might be because I forgot to take my meds this morning, maybe not) and I felt really lost without my W. When I got here, I wanted SO badly to call her and tell her I miss her.

I called my mom and she started yelling at me that I could handle this interview and where was the strong young man she used to know. I had to hang up, I couldn't take the judgement of feeling how I was feeling. It's not a matter of me thinking that I'm not able to do it, I feel like I don't want to go through this process without my W and her support.

I feel this is a step in a direction without the W and that I'm not ready to take such a step, and it's just an interview and not even anywhere near an offer yet. :-/

I called a friend afterwards talk to and try to not call the W. I eventually mentioned how the W was saying she didn't have a whole lot of money left after bills, and how when I asked if she was spending her money on the OC or on hotels visiting the OC she said she wasn't. He mentioned that a mutual friend saw her and the OW at a lifestyle party this past weekend.

That got me pretty upset.

My friend helped talk me down from being upset about it. I eventually got to the point where I figured it's in the past, there's nothing I can do about it and she's going to do whatever she wants to do.

The only concern I should have is when she's ready to work things out. (I say when and not if to keep up pma.) From that point on then whatever it is she's been doing during this time apart and before that is forgiven and forgotten. From that point on we're concentrating on working on us and moving forward together.

That's the goal. To get to that point. Until then it's taking one day at a time and concentrating on me.

I went to a CoDA meeting last night. It was... interesting. Not at all what I had expected I guess. I feel like I'm in this weird limbo after reading Codependent No More and starting with this group, because I feel that while I'm familiar with the text I'm looking for more direction on implementation. Time will tell if it's an effective thing to continue going to. If nothing else it's a group to draw more examples from.

I'm a little hurt that she didn't call to arrange lunch/dinner plans like she said she would. I think I understand her not doing so. Although I'm afraid she's still waiting for me to reach out to her first. She definitely seemed to be inquiring and hinting to things going in that direction.