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I guess I'm working towards acceptance then. IDK.

I will transfer some of this over to my thread.

That actually clarifies some things for me. I'm not sure I'm able to forgive in this case. Maybe that's ok? It never occurred to me that this was a choice.

I know, without question, I'm able to accept life for being life and I will be able move past it--seeing how this was God's plan. However, I don't know that I will be able to forgive the person who set these things in motion.

Sorry for the hi-jack Cali, such a hot topic for me right now. Hope you can find something you can use in my post.


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Mr. Bowtie,

Originally Posted By: AJM
In my experience I've seen no evidence of anyone truly forgiving the wrongs done to them until and unless they are asked for that forgiveness. Admittedly, I haven't seen everything.


It seems to me that you are stuck/hung up on the 'requirement' that true forgiveness equates to being asked for it. Why is that for you? I am just trying to understand your POV here.

People have done hurtful and stupid things to me at times throughout my life. I have forgiven them ...given freely without being asked for it. I do this because it is FOR ME in the way that I do not carry anger and resentment in me for those events.

Remorse and forgiveness are two separate things.

It seems to me that you are looking for remorse from the offending party before you are able to dole out forgiveness, Mr. Bow Tie. Am I warm here? Hot or cold?

Originally Posted By: AJM
Forgiveness has its place as well. But I don't see it having a place until its asked for.


Because you're looking for remorse here and I think it is an area of getting the upper hand or superiority in having the offending party ASK YOU for it. Why would you want that? That seems strike to me as some type of moral vengeance that supposedly balances out things.

All for what to end? Does the end justify the means??!!


To me, forgiveness does not require the participation of two parties to achieve it. It is done for the personal growth of the Self. Nothing more, nothing less.

Granted, asking for it would be the cherry on the top of the sundae. Alas...we cannot always have that delicious cherry.


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Hey Luke...I was going to say sorry about this, but, it's all too good, so, I will say thank you. What a wonderful discussion.

AJ, you had me at adult tasty beverage. LOL! smile.

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I still check in, I just don't post ... Much
Lol

I have yet to read all this .... But I think it's absolutely wonderful when good deep discussions over such an important topic take place ... I also do not think hijacks are possible nor an issue, we are all here to learn and grow, who cares what thread that happens on ya know?

I will most likely read and re read and add my typical novel Monday ... You all are amazing, hope you are enjoying your weekend!!


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That's funny stuff, Luke...about you not posting much. LOL!

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I am loving this topic and discussion, it is a point we all have to face, no matter what the turn out is. It is also very clear that we have our own views of forgiveness and what it will take for us to achieve that, if we can.

For me, I believe it begins with acceptance, but true forgiveness will take a very long time for me. Personal issues or not, to forgive my H for ripping our family apart so he can have time alone to figure himself out, I can't fathom anything more selfish. However, I have accepted it and used my anger to push me forward.

Thanks to all for sharing your own thoughts. I don't think there is any right or wrong, black or white in this matter. I believe it is a unique step for each of us.

Cali, you seem to be taking each step with an open mind and an honesty that I so admire.

I would love to hear from reconciled posters on where they stand with their level of forgiveness? Did they truly forgive, or did they decide to accept that what happened can't be changed, that they prefer to move forward from it and to rebuild on a stronger foundation? My H is not banging down my door to come back to me. But I figure that if we ever find our way back to each other, I would need some very serious assurance that he was coming back for me and not just because his life adventure he decided to take didn't quite pan out the way he thought. So Cali, I can understand why you are guarded and gun shy. I think it just another super fun smile process to work through on our path.

I have so much faith in you that you will work your way through this. Especially with the wise input on here. The posts on here are so inspiring in getting us thinking and working.


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Wonka, I have to say you're a bit cold on this one.
Quote:
It seems to me that you are stuck/hung up on the 'requirement' that true forgiveness equates to being asked for it. Why is that for you? I am just trying to understand your POV here.

People have done hurtful and stupid things to me at times throughout my life. I have forgiven them ...given freely without being asked for it. I do this because it is FOR ME in the way that I do not carry anger and resentment in me for those events.

Remorse and forgiveness are two separate things.

It seems to me that you are looking for remorse from the offending party before you are able to dole out forgiveness, Mr. Bow Tie. Am I warm here? Hot or cold?
Not carrying anger nor resentment doesn't require forgiveness. It does require acceptance of what happened and a decision to not carry that anger and resentment.

But to me, forgiveness does require the concept of repentance. i.e. "I recognize I did you wrong, and I am deciding I won't continue to do that to you. Can we wipe the slate clean and begin anew?" When I say begin, I mean our new relationship, which may be close to nothing, won't carry that baggage over. It's forgotten as if it never happened.

Because it needs to be as if it never happened, can you see why it requires two people and not just one, or am I missing it still?

I can accept that you wronged me, treated me poorly, maliciously did x,y,z toward me etc. I can accept that you're human. I can accept that you're happy you did them and don't want to change anything about what you did toward me. That's your world and one you live in. I have no reason to forgive you of the offense(s). None. I don't need to be angry about it just as I am not angry when a small child bumps into me and spills his drink on my leg. I'm not angry, although I don't particularly like it nor seek out opportunities to be around that child while they have a drink in their hands and aren't tied to a chair or their parents smile i.e. I haven't forgotten and I haven't forgiven in the sense that I'm not looking to continue a relationship with a child that's done that. No anger, but no relationship.

And I think the relationship, of some sort, is key to forgiveness. Otherwise, it's cheap forgiveness.

But I don't have a live a bitter, angry, cold life of untrusting solitude either. I don't have to forgive a person to avoid that.

In my mind, forgiveness is not what's needed to heal. Rather, acceptance, peace, and lack of emotions around the acts and person are attainable and much sought after (much like the analogy of the child who did what he did, whether maliciously or not; still a child.) But wiping the slate clean when it wasn't asked for? When it was flaunted as the thing to do? When it was done with intent and malice aforethought?

Nope. Not appropriate.

I don't think it appropriate to extract a pound of flesh for the wrongs either. That's really not the point and provides no value unless starring in an action movie where vengeance is needed for the plot thickener. Otherwise, incredibly limited value in my view. I haven't always "felt" that way though. There was a time I would have been more than happy to run my ex over with her own car, shoot her, push her off a cliff and then do it again. Just how I felt, but not what I believe. Eventually, feelings do catch up with what one believes, thankfully.

When genuinely asked for (not as a manipulative tactic?)
Certainly needs to be done. I.e wipe the slate clean and never speak of it again (both sides). That would be forgiveness if you asked me and the difference.


Forgiveness. Takes two as far as I'm concerned. The rest can be done without it and one can still lead a great life without bitterness, nor anger toward another. Acceptance + choice allows one to say, "I know what you did, and I choose not to retaliate nor talk about it nor carry the burden of your choices in my heart" - without forgiveness.

Dunno. Maybe I'm missing something in the bigger picture. I'll keep stepping... smile

AJ


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Holy Shid AJ...YOU just made this do-able for me. I CAN DO THIS ^^^

Acceptance + CHOICE...There's what I've needed to hear. I NEED to feel the CHOICE in the matter because I've had too many things done TOO me without my consent.

This last step is MINE do handle in a way that works for ME. No one else.

Thanks for that.


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Thank you, Mr. Bowtie, for explaining your POV.

This part is where I think differently from you:

Originally Posted By: AJM
But to me, forgiveness does require the concept of repentance. i.e. "I recognize I did you wrong, and I am deciding I won't continue to do that to you. Can we wipe the slate clean and begin anew?" When I say begin, I mean our new relationship, which may be close to nothing, won't carry that baggage over. It's forgotten as if it never happened.


Repentance suggests guilt. That is my interpretation from my own perch. What about situations where it is not possible such as the person with Alzheimer's, person who has passed on, dies in an accident, or some such event. What says you?

Forgiveness doesn't mean that everything's forgotten as if it never happened nor can the relationship be renewed as in a having a clean slate because one just doesn't ERASE the incident or events from one's past. How can that be ever possible??!! Plus the baggage will always be in the background.

It is called the baggage of memory that is filed away. One does not forget being lied to, being hurt, being betrayed, etc. How can one start with a clean slate when there's been so much damage?

Instead, in my mind, forgiveness means that ONE makes a very conscious decision not to be a hostage to the hurt/pain/betrayal. I don't need for my late father to apologize to me for his sheer stupidity for his affairs. I forgive him because he was a flawed human being and I loved him unconditionally. I never once called him "stupid" or made him feel bad for his OWs.

Nor would one make a former alcoholic feel guilty for his/her struggles. I do not think the concept of repentance is a requirement for forgiveness.

Originally Posted By: AJM
Because it needs to be as if it never happened, can you see why it requires two people and not just one, or am I missing it still?


Hello Sherlock...it will never ever bye as "if it never happened" because it is seared in the memory of the injured party. What about the guy who pulled a wedgie back in high school? Does he need to come back to you 40+ years on to repent in order to receive forgiveness from you?

I think and believe that true and sincere forgiveness is a sacred gift that one person is ABLE to freely give to the offender that sets both of the parties free of the event.

In my view, one who does not forgive the other person is still tied/attached to the offender. The ties are through one's emotional reactions to the offender or event.

Unforgiveness makes one still attached to the event/offender.

I have read of instances of the offender asking for repentance and YET does not receive the gift of forgiveness from the injured party. As you say, two parties were at play here. The concept of repentance was addressed right there. What then?

Forgiveness can either be done solo or with all parties involved.

What I think are two very important distinctions to consider here:

repentance and making amends

A whole different ball of wax! smile




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I get ya Wonka. I hear exactly what you're saying and I do believe that your argument is both powerful and says what I'm saying: there cannot be "forgiveness" if it's seared into the memory forever. That right there is holding onto the baggage of the emotions, the event, and all that goes with it. Even if just by a thread and even if you feel good about it. Still not forgiveness at that point. That's acceptance of one another and of the event as painful. Acceptance of letting go of the pain of that event. Acceptance of not being ok with it and forgetting it. And choosing to not seek revenge (or justice in most people's POV.) That's similar, but that's not forgiveness. By forgiving somebody of what they "owe" you, I don't hold onto that emotion nor the event. I let it go. Your account is zero balance. Whatever you do from this point forward, you do with a new account. I won't later, if you hurt me, bring back the former event and compound it with the new offense.

I've seen those that have reached that point, together. And I've seen many that have chosen to accept and chosen to not retaliate nor carry the emotions and burdens - they simply gave that back and walked away. But I have yet to see forgiveness when it is only one-sided.

Quote:
Repentance suggests guilt. That is my interpretation from my own perch. What about situations where it is not possible such as the person with Alzheimer's, person who has passed on, dies in an accident, or some such event. What says you?

Forgiveness doesn't mean that everything's forgotten as if it never happened nor can the relationship be renewed as in a having a clean slate because one just doesn't ERASE the incident or events from one's past. How can that be ever possible??!! Plus the baggage will always be in the background.

It is called the baggage of memory that is filed away. One does not forget being lied to, being hurt, being betrayed, etc. How can one start with a clean slate when there's been so much damage?

Instead, in my mind, forgiveness means that ONE makes a very conscious decision not to be a hostage to the hurt/pain/betrayal. I don't need for my late father to apologize to me for his sheer stupidity for his affairs. I forgive him because he was a flawed human being and I loved him unconditionally. I never once called him "stupid" or made him feel bad for his OWs.
Repentance does not suggest guilt in my mind. It suggests going another direction. "More commonly the translation is "turn" or "return"" There are many common definitions that do allude to it meaning to come crawling back, but I suggest that's a fairly recent interpretation vs. the original concept. I intended for it in the original concept and chose that word just as a familiar word. Seems it caused confusion in the intent though, because I certainly didn't assume guilt is required. Simply to turn another direction away from hurting a person intentionally.

As for the alcoholic analogy. I can only imagine the pain of dealing with that. My grandfather was a mean drunk. My father lived with that and barely spoke about it. I can only imagine.

And it must be even more painful to be told to be free of that person you must "forgive" them. Can you? I don't think so. I don't think you can forget about the harm caused. I think you can accept them for the imperfect person they were and love them and care for them and be at peace with that. I think you can give back the anger and frustration or even shunt that to ground somehow. But forgive? I have yet to see that. I've seen the other with great effect. I've seen many freed from a lifetime of pain, shame and regret by choosing to accept the other, no gone person and choosing to love them unconditionally. I just haven't seen them forget the debt without being asked about it.

In my own family, I've seen the pain inflicted by grandmother's plans to have an affair and run away when my mom was a teen. My grandfather forgave after he was asked to and after many years. Never brought it up again, and it didn't come out in any shape or way. They lived together for 75 years, so I'm sure they had a few chances and a few times to throw mud. My mother didn't forgive her mom. She tolerated. She accepted. She chose not to punish her mother outwardly. But it was there in the background like a ghost waiting to haunt. She never brought it up either, except now and again to my father (a safe place). He told me about it years later after my mother died and my grandmother was senile etc.

It's a difference - forgiveness requires two people in my mind. Acceptance + choice require just the one person to action it.
Repentance, in it's original intent, it more about going another direction or to turn away from what you were previously doing. It has nothing to do with guilt per se. That's a later interpretation from what I've seen and implies one can atone for one's wrongs.

That's a fallacy as well.

When you ask for forgiveness from somebody you are giving the power to somebody else to decide. You are trusting the person previously thought to be your enemy. You are risking that somebody else won't, as you described, forgive you but instead demand retribution and justice. That's the premise for 1,000 year wars and gang-land violence and is certainly part of natural man's inclination. An eye for an eye kind of thing, right? It's what our carnal self wants (read, "ego" vs. "carnal self" and it makes more sense to me in a Freudian sort of way. smile )

I also don't think forgiveness requires making amends. That's a different kettle of fix altogether wink It's not as if you can murder somebody's family, bring them a million dollars and with a little jiggery-pokery make everything ok. You can ask for forgiveness, but that's about it in my mind. You can certainly try to make amends. That's a nice thing to do. But I doubt seriously you can make enough amends to replace somebody's family you brutally murdered and attain (or purchase) forgiveness.

In short, I disagree with this:
Quote:
Forgiveness can either be done solo or with all parties involved.
but I do recognize that we have a deficit in our language for this type of stuff. Perhaps we've lost some things over the years to adequately describe the concepts. In our 20th century "progressive" minds, we my have lost some of the meaning of the words by blending them into something else.

Maybe.

AJ


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK
Put the glass down...
"Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world
Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
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