Lost & confused

[Clairee]

This is really hard and I don't know where to start. So please forgive me if I'm all over the place.

I've been M 17y, T 18y. I am 43 & H is 40. We has 3 kids s17, d13, d12. Our M hasn't been perfect & I've made plenty of mistakes & spent many of those years ignoring my M & H's feelings, wants & desires. I've been working on being better & I'll get to that. Skip ahead. My H is in the military. 2 years ago he had a stroke & while it didn't cause any lasting physical effects, it did cause him to have to change jobs. In Nov he left for California to go to schools for his new job. We live in Hawaii. We have good friends in CA, so he was hanging out with them. He met OW through a mutual friend & began texting. H didn't tell me anything about it. I found it when I opened the cell bill & found hours of texting every day. I asked him who that was, he told me. I asked for details about who she was..M, S, D, kids, etc. She was single but in a relationship. I said I was uncomfortable with the quantity of conversation. That I didn't feel a single woman would spend hours on a man who she knew was unavailable to her & there was something deeper on her part even if not on his. He assured me it was just friendly chit-chat. The weekend after Thanksgiving I flew to CA to spend a few days with him. He wanted me to meet her so I could see for myself it was just friends. We met up with a group of friends & she was there. She was very cold & acted strange. She wouldn't talk when I was around, but when I walked away she was just the life of the party until I reappeared. She spent the evening giving me dirty looks. H was very attentive, almost overly so. When we left, H apologized. He said he saw how she acted & was surprised but that I must have been on to something. H never spoke to her again. H came home in Dec for Christmas. Things were good. Things were normal. While he was home, we got word that a friend had died. We were both shaken by this. I flew back with him to CA to attend the memorial in Los Angeles. I stayed about a week. We were very connected especially with our shared loss. When I left H was very expressive of his love & how much he wished I could stay, this was the 1st week of Jan. Fast forward to the end of Feb. H & I are members of an MC & they had their state convention. The Friday before the convention started a fellow brother had his retirement ceremony at the same place. H attended. Friday night, I get an alert that a purchase has been paid from our bank. I have it set to alert me of any charges over $50. I logged in to find a hotel charge. Now keep in mind, I've not spoken to him much at all. He's been busy. The retirement & then opening night of the convention. I am not one to call all the time while he's out. He usually calls every couple of hours just to say he's ok & he loves me. Not this night. I called his cell. No answer. I called at least a dozen times. No answer. I called the hotel & they transferred me. Still no answer. About 20 minutes later, he calls. Said he woke up to go to the bathroom & saw the missed calls. I was furious. We had not discussed getting a hotel room. We have a standing rule, we each can spend up to $100 a pay period without talking to the other but anything over that we have to talk about & agree. He said he got too drunk at the conventions opening night events & couldn't drive back to his barracks room. He said he didn't want to sleep on a floor somewhere so he got a room. He apologized for not talking to me first. Said he had every intention of calling as soon as he got to the room but passed out. The next morning he apologizes more. Sunday the last day of the convention he is still apologizing. Sunday night I looked at the phone bill. Why I don't know. But I did. I saw a strange number from New Mexico. I asked him. He said it was the brother who retireds sister. He had met her at the retirement & she worked for a hot air balloon company & he thought that was interesting. They exchanged phone numbers. I warned to remember the last time. He swore it wouldn't go there at all. Now I'm watching the bill...daily. I'm seeing the texts. Well, not the actual texts but the number of them. She is texting him every single day! All through the day & night. He says it's nothing just asking questions about our MC, chit chat. I said its excessive & needs to be backed off. I don't like it. He blames our separation on why I'm feeling this way. Says I'm letting my insecurities take over. Fast forward slightly to middle of Mar. I fly out for spring break. We argue about this OW. He agrees to back it down. Things go good the rest of the trip. A few days after I leave, he has a guys night out with some of the guys he goes to school with for pizza & beers. He doesn't talk to me much that evening. But that's how it is when he's out with friends & I understand. I'm not clingy. But again my gut is in knots. I check the phone & he spent the entire 3 hours texting with her while with his friends. I am livid now. I yelled, I cursed, I cried. He apologized. He swore to cut off all contact immediately with her & her brother. With anyone he knew associated with her. The next morning I logged into his email, haven't looked at his email account in YEARS! Not even when his phone was in my purse. I found in the spam folder this online texting website. It was a thanks for registering email. I asked him about it. He said a buddy had told him about it & he installed the app but didn't like it. I called BS to that. Well not to him but in my head. So while he was in class, I reset the password & logged in. Nothing. It was empty. Not a single contact, nothing. I was staring at the screen kicking myself for being so suspicious when message from her pops up. In a moment of uncontrolled anger, I replied 'stop messaging my husband' I wanted to say more, but I held my tongue & temper at least with her. I proceeded to unleash the wrath of hell on H through text then phone. I said that was it. I was done. I even called an attorney. We spent the next several days talking. Really talking about the issues. I decided I needed counseling because I didn't know how to forgive him. I made an appointment with a marriage friendly counselor the next week. I was very clear with her, I didn't want to divorce I wanted to learn how to forgive him. Things are great at this point. I'm 3 weeks into therapy & really letting go of things. I feel closer to H despite the zip code differences. We are talking for hours everyday. Using FaceTime so we can see each other. We're planning for him to come home & buying our 1st house next year. H comments all the time about how different I am & how much he loves me. H is posting memes on FB to me every day. Every morning I wake up to a good morning text & quick phone call before he goes to call. And he stays up late so he is the last person I hear before bed. I mean things are great! I have never felt more love for him than I do now. Now that brings us to the now...

Thursday I got a phone call from a very good mutual friend. Part of our MC & a couple we hang out with when I'm there. As close to a sister as I have. She is crying when I answer the phone. She proceeds to tell me H is up to no good. He spent the entire weekend at the convention with the OW. She doesn't have details of everything just what her man told her my H had told him. This past weekend he spent the evening hanging out at their house. While there, in my friends words, he was bragging about hooking up with this OW & showed pictures. He had pictures she had sent him of herself in lingerie & some nude. My friends man was shocked & disgusted. They didn't know what to do but decided since he didn't show them any remorse or regret, he had to still be doing it & I needed to know.

I confronted H. He denied. Threw them & 1 other person who knew under the bus that they were lying. So while H was on my cell, I used our house phone to call the other person that knew. With H able to hear every word, I asked. He confirmed everything I had been told. That's when H confessed...sorta. He didn't give me the full truth in one shot. It dragged out over Thur & Fri. The reason he hadn't talked to me at the convention wasn't just because he was busy with MC stuff but because he was with her. He met her at 4, by 5 he said he decided to hook up with her. He took his wedding ring off & put it in his pocket. He said they hung out at the convention & then got the room because he was too drunk to drive. I asked if he asked her to go to the room with him & he said no she just followed & he didn't stop her. He said they got in the room & he kissed her. But they didn't have sex. He said not having condoms was his safety net to not do it. He said when the time came he couldn't & that gave him an out. But she spent the night. He says they both stayed fully dressed. He said he was lonely. He missed physical contact that phone calls & FaceTime wasn't enough because he couldn't put his arms around me. He says he was trying to fill a void & it didn't work because it wasn't me. Then he admitted he thought he could have a right now thing & keep his forever with me. That no one would tell me & I wouldn't know. He said he didn't think it all the way through that he was only thinking about being lonely. He didn't think he could lose everything he said that never even occurred to him. How could that not occur to him?! He said he felt so guilty about it & that he wasn't bragging but just had to tell somebody. I didn't & still don't believe that. I told him if he was so guilt ridden, he wouldn't have kept contact & he damn sure wouldn't have kept a photo scrapbook.

So now it's Saturday. He is begging for another chance. I had a counseling session yesterday & I don't think I've stopped crying for more than 10 minutes at a time. He sends me texts. One in particular he says he has always said he was who he was, like him or not it doesn't matter, he likes who he is. But that he was wrong because he hates who he is & how he's hurt me. He says he'll do anything for me to stay. The only thing I promised was I wouldn't file for divorce right now. He asked me if I could give him a chance. I told him I didn't know. That right now I feel sick. I visited him just weeks after this & he acted like nothing was going on or had happened. We made love daily. It was all BS. I told him knowing all of this makes me sick to my stomach. Knowing he touched her & then me makes me feel like I want to scrub my skin off. I am so disgusted. It doesn't matter that he says he they didn't have sex. I don't believe anything out of his mouth. Why go to all that trouble & not get the prize? He has called me today almost every hour & he always says I love you. I can't even say those words. H probably thinks it's punishment, but I just can't say them. My head says I love him, but I don't feel it in my heart. I feel empty & broken & humiliated. I feel nothing but pain.

So google searching for help, I came across this forum. So here I am. I don't know what to do next. I don't know if he's sincerely sorry. I don't know if he means he'll do anything. He has said he will find a counselor or talk to a chaplain. I don't want to make knee jerk decisions but I'm tired of his lies. I finally told him last night, please stop hurting me with your lies. Just please stop hurting me more.

I know he has plans to meet our friends this weekend & apologize for putting them in such a bad place of having to tell me & he said he plans to tell them he is going to do everything to make it right with me. I think I need him to do that because he humiliated me to them.

I am just lost. Guidance is greatly appreciated because while I haven't decided to stay, I haven't decided to leave either. I am stuck in this horrible place in my head & heart. I do love him. But I don't like him & I don't respect him.

Tweets

M:43
H:40
S17, D13, D12
Married 17 years, together 18 years

[Cadet]

Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
(http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2534754&page=1).

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

[Train]

You still around, Tweets?

[mvgfwd2]

As they say around here: "believe nothing what he says and half of what he does". It took me 7 months for my W to fess up to what she did and I still don't believe I have the whole story. At least she has been true to not contacting anyone who was involved since I found out.

At this point he must DO things to regain your trust if that is even possible. He can't just talk about seeing this guy or that one for help. He has to do it. He's a big boy, time to act like one. You can't really tell him what to do. It's for him to do what it takes to get your forgiveness. That means he has a lot of work to fix this mess he created.

Tell him your boundaries. You have to take action if he breaks them or they are not really boundaries. My boundaries included no contact ever again with OM, her brother and best friend. And the full truth of what happened. That one she failed to do and I am still not sure what to do at the moment. But make up your own boundaries of what you will not put up with. It's up to him to prove to you he is in compliance if he wants to respect you.

Next you need to work on being the best person you can be. One only a fool would cheat on. And one that is unavailable if you are disrespected anymore.

[Clairee]

I'm still here. Reading & drawing strength from others who are going through what I never imagined going through.

I have been very honest with H that as much as I want to believe everything he says, I don't because of the lies & coverups. H says he understands & that he caused that. He has gone to see a counselor & during that session the counselor asked him why I didn't leave. He had no idea. So it's making him at least think. He has apologized more times than I can keep up with & I hope he really means it. He agreed to the boundaries I set...no contact with OW or her family. No drinking. To tell me the full truth about everything. And to apologize to our friends he put in an awful position of feeling they needed to protect me & tell me. He did all of that but I'm still stuck on if he's telling me the whole truth. Being in 2 different states & not being able to see his eyes & body language makes it impossible for me to believe. I'm flying to where he is next month. I'm hoping face to face I will find that answer.

Today I opened the door to a flower delivery. He hasn't given me flowers since our youngest was born 12 years ago. I was completely shocked. It really isn't like him to spend money on flowers or even think about doing that. The card said he loved me & would do everything he could so I never forgot that. It was sweet & complete surprise.

I'm worried about the trip. I have told him about the images in my head I can't shake about him & OW. I have been totally honest with my concerns. I'm afraid he'll take it that everything is peachy & forgiven when that isn't anywhere near the truth. He says he knows that & knows this is a very long road.

I wish I could be more confident in his actions. Seeing a counselor I know is hard for him & way outside his comfort zone. I have my own counselor although I'm not entirely sure she's right for me. Last session she almost seemed hostile that I talked to him on the phone before he had seen a counselor. I have another appointment this week & if I feel the same hostility, I think its time for someone new. Because I have decided 18 years together with more good years than bad is worth trying to forgive & repair. And I do love him, we have been happy & pray we can be again.

[Sotto]

Hi Tweets

It sounds like your H is genuinely remorseful and willing to do 'whatever it takes' to repair things with you. I think what you are feeling is perfectly normal. And it's especially understandable if your H isn't physically there with you.

Have you been over to the piecing section of this forum at all? There may be some useful content in there for you. One thing that people seem to agree on is that piecing is tough, so don't be surpised if there are ups and downs still to come.

It does sound as though you are on the right track though. In terms of your worries about trust, the advice on the boards is normally 'trust but verify.' This means an open and transparent approach with email log ins and so on - but maybe a further source of intel available that your S is unaware of. Just a thought, and I'm in no way an expert on this. Others may have more advice.

Good luck in your journey going forwards :-)

[Clairee]

Thanks Toots. I haven't been to that forum, I will definitely check it out. I am working on my own issues right now, being a better person & letting go of the past. I acknowledge & accept my faults & am working to not be that same person making the same mistakes. He gave me access to everything & had gone as far as screenshotting his texts with people so I can see them. Since we are so far apart, I asked that he not delete anything until I'm there & if I want to see phone, computer, whatever he has to make that available. He agreed. He removed the OW & her entire family from his Facebook & blocked their numbers on his phone. He did it while we were on FaceTime so I could see him do it. Before he did, he sent them all a no contact message & included me in the group message so I could see everything said by him & by any of them. I'm trying to acknowledge the things he is doing, even if I have doubts. I've told him how much I appreciated him going to IC & that I know it isn't something easy for him to do.

Last night we talked about my trip & he said if things are uncomfortable being in the same room/bed, he'd sleep on the floor or get me another room. That he didn't have any expectations. He just wants the opportunity to show me he means what he is saying & it is the truth & to have a chance for me to remember the good times we have together.

Sometimes I get angry when he's talking like this & doing all these things. Where was this guy all along? Why did it take me calling a divorce attorney for him to do these things?

Ugh! Up & down is so right. There are hours in the day I don't know the difference between my head & my rearend!

[Train]

Has your H agreed to a full transparency plan? Has he given you access (usernames/passwords) to all his accounts, including bank, cell phone, etc.?

I'm a firm believer in "trust ... but verify."

I can't imagine how tough this is when you're in a "long distance" situation.

[Train]

Also, I'm with you re: your H saying he was alone in a hotel room with OW and stopped at kissing her. If he has that kind of willpower, he's the only man I've ever known who did. I'd demand a full-panel STD screening just to be safe. If he didn't sleep with her - and if he wants to do whatever it takes to get back into your M - he shouldn't mind. I'd do this before being intimate with him again.

[Clairee]

He has agreed to everything I've asked without the slightest hesitation. Email, facebook, credit card statements, phone bill, everything. I don't have access to his computer or phone to verify anything because we're in 2 states. But he agreed to not delete anything & said I would have whatever access I felt I needed to move forward. I can't see text messages but I can see the bill & he's had no contact with anyone I don't know. He calls me almost every hour until bed. I can see through his Google account his search & history & I've not see anything out of the ordinary in it. And there's been no charges on any credit card for anything he didn't tell me about, even before all of this & no cash withdrawals. So I don't believe there's a hidden phone anywhere.

Not being able to ask the questions in person adds to my inability to believe they didn't have sex. He did account for his entire night, I asked for step by step, drink by drink details, I wanted nothing left out. Everything that happened before walking through the hotel room door I was able to confirm with other people. It's what happened behind the door only he or the OW can answer & he swears he didn't have sex. I've tried tripping him up, I guess that's the only way I can describe it, with random thoughts or questions & not when we are having serious conversations & he hasn't changed the answer yet. I plan to ask face to face where he can't look away or hide behind a text/phone call. Where I can see his eyes, see his body language. We have one friend he talks to about this & our friend says he swears to him he stopped & couldn't do it. Right now, I'm working off the assumption it did happen. I wasn't there, I have no proof one way or the other & if I'm really going to get passed it, I have to just accept it did & work from there. Otherwise I'm fooling myself with my desire for it not to have happened.

He just had his annual physical for the military so he didn't have any STD or that would've come out. But I did already have this discussion & he maintained he didn't have sex with her or anyone, he said if I needed him to get tested he would do whatever it took to make me comfortable.

My biggest problem is not being able to let myself even think about forgiveness. I don't know how to do that. How do you forgive & move forward? Even if there was no PA it was an EA & I'm stuck on how to move passed that.

Ugh! Nothing in my life prepared me for this kind of crap!

[UpperCu]

Welcome to the board. Sorry you're here :-/

What are your boundaries? Find the answer to: "If I will take H back, ___________ has to happen."

Don't answer every phone call and don't make yourself available to him at every moment. His actions are destroying your marriage and flowers and calls aren't going to instantly heal you. Remember, you need time to yourself to rebuild your identity that he just shattered.

Your reaction and disgust seem extremely healthy and mature to me. I wish I handled myself more like you are handling this before my W blew up our marriage 8 months ago.

Get out of your house, go do something for you, take a beach day or something.

If you're like i was, you are reading advice and blogs about your sitch 24/7. You will need to work hard in the coming weeks to redirect the obsessive focus on your sitch into getting a life for yourself. Your H cannot be the sole person to support you through this. He has a LOT to deal with and you need others who will help you through this. Rely on this board and build your network of close friends NOW who support your efforts to save your marriage and keep your sanity.

Also, read Divorce Remedy. Seems cheesy with the whole 7 step thing, but there is great insight into the reality of what you're facing. It was helpful to me to read to realize how awful and destructive divorce really is and to understand my own emotions and feelings.

Hang in there.

Praying for you.

[Clairee]

Thanks for your advice UpperCut. The first few days reading blogs & such was all I did & I quickly realized it was just giving me a headache. I don't sit around all day, in the 18 years we've been together he has deployed many, many times & having your own life outside of him is essential to surviving months of separation. So I have my own things going on & normally a great support system. But I don't involve my friends in my marriage because I don't want to taint the friendships & cause bad feelings against him when my goal is to make this work. Instead, I turn to my IC & fortunately found this board. He calls often, all day for the most part, sometimes I have time to talk & other times I'm busy. I have 3 kids, 2 dogs & all the responsibilities that come with being the only parent at home. I have volunteer work & just registered for school again after deciding on a change in career paths. I keep busy, I always have. It's the nights when everything is quiet that are the hardest. Alone with my thoughts. I don't feel the anger like I did, but the hurt is still very much on the surface.

Tweets

[Clairee]

A quick check in, I have IC in an hour. Last night was a rough night for me. D13 had figure skating classes & while I was waiting H called. We talked briefly as I just wasn't in a good place. This upcoming trip has me all over the place. Nervous, anxious & quite honestly scared. It will be the first time I've seen him since the call. H told me I sound like I'm giving up. I remembered reading something in the newcomers forum about the ups & downs, so I texted it to him. This morning he called to thank me for sending it, it helped him understand this isn't like anything else & has no real phases but it's s roller coaster with ups, downs, twists & curves. We or I should say I was able to finally have him hear me about this trip. The city has negatives attached to it for me & that ties me in knots. The last trip I made has been tainted with negativity because of the reveal. He says where he is wasn't part of the A. I explained a restaurant building wouldn't have been a contributing factor either, but I wouldn't want to dine there if I knew he had with OW. That the hotel itself wasn't to blame, but I still wouldn't stay in it after this. I think he finally understood that while all these physical locations weren't reasons or catalysts, they represent everything that happened within them.

Well, need to change clothes quick & off to IC then grocery shopping, post office & to find D12 new shoes. She needs to stop growing lol!

Hope everyone is having s good day. And I thank each & everyone of you for your words of advice & support. I'm realizing more & more, life is what you make it no matter what obstacles are in your way. Today I'm making it a shave ice with ice cream kind of day!

[UpperCu]

Hey - glad to hear you have a positive mental attitude (PMA). It will go up and down sharply for the first few weeks and slowly become more mild over the next several months. Space is probably feeling like a blessing and a curse for you. Trust me, being around your spouse too much right now can be harmful. Take this time before you see him again to work on yourself, and it sounds like you know that, but really you should be looking at your life for changes to be made. Learn every lesson this situation and pain is teaching you.

What are your plans for the weekend? PLAN AHEAD so you're not left alone with your thoughts right now. You do need people to carry you through this. The Lone Ranger thing doesn't work.

[Clairee]

Thanks UC for the advice. The distance is both blessing & curse. Its giving me the time I need to sort out my feelings & focus on my changes without feeling pressure. But it's also difficult because I can't see H's reactions, changes or body language when he's talking. I know I need to change my interaction with H. In the past, I ignored his feelings & never took them into consideration much. Which is exactly how my parents marriage is & I see that now. I never talked if I was bothered by something. Bottle it up, then blow up later. So I'm working on being a better partner by being a better person. I have been suffocating under my own self inflicted image issues, so I've started working out again which is something I have put off far too long. I'm not s big fan of exercise but it has been giving me an outlet for my frustrations and anxieties.

No big plans for the weekend. Probably a beach day Saturday & shopping/lunch with a girlfriend Sunday.

I know I shouldn't do the Lone Ranger thing, but I'm very much aware of how my friends react to certain things & if the words lie, cheat or affair come out of my mouth they will all call him & give it to him & hold it against him forever. All of my close friends who I would confide in are Hawaiian/Asian women & I've seen how they behave when it comes to this when one of our other friends told them her H was messing around with someone. They were relentless & harsh. I don't want that for any of us.

I had a really good session today with IC. Helped me realize everything I feel is normal & won't last forever. We talked a lot about forgiveness & how that can happen & how she had confidence that I would get there with the right actions & tools. That gave me a sense of peace & hope which I've been lacking. We talked of the long road & that while this initial phase is hard, putting it back together will be harder, longer & more emotional.

H called later to tell me there were issues with the bike starter. Ended up costing more than anticipated to fix. He had made plans for us to take a full day winery tour while I was there & I nixed that because of the extra costs to fix the bike. I felt a surge of anger when he told me because I knew we couldn't spend another $600 on the bike & do such an expensive day tour. For years I've harbored feelings of his selfishness. I give up something so he can have something instead. This has eaten at me for years & I never said anything. I just swallowed it, stewed on it & found ways to punish him. This time when I felt it, instead of bottling it up I walked around the block, calmed myself down & then talked to him about it. Acknowledging this is different because it's a repair that had to be done & not just some toy he wanted & I shouldn't have instantly jumped to that feeling. He apologized it made me feel that way & wished I had said things before. He said he always felt bad I did that, but never said anything because he assumed I was really ok with it all. Funny how that whole communication thing bites you in the okole when you fail to use it.

Overall not a bad day. I didn't get my shave ice but the kids & I got ice cream after school together & sat at the park eating it & just enjoying a beautiful day.

Tweets

[UpperCu]

How are you doing today Tweets?

[Clairee]

Having a good day so far. Thanks for checking up on me! Lots of running around to do later then meeting with my sister from another mister for dinner & drinks. H emailed me yesterday out of nowhere. It had to be the most real thing he's ever said. This is jpart of it...

I talk to other women hoping that the conversations will help
to take my mind off of the [censored] that is going on. Almost every single
thing I have done since November has been an attempt to take my mind off
of things. An attempt to fill the hole in the center of me that your
absence leaves.

Also understand that, in the past, I have blamed you for my behavior. You
didn¹t pay attention to me so it was OK if I was talking to someone else.
How could you really get mad, when the only reason I¹m doing it is to make
up for what you aren¹t giving me? I never thought you would actually
leave, cause it was really your fault all along. I didn¹t feel guilty
because, again, it was your fault.

The reality is very different. Yes, there have been times that you have
not treated me as well as you should have. That does NOT justify anything
I have done. I simply used you as my excuse so that I didn¹t realize how
ugly I have become inside. I have begun to understand just how wrong I have been.

There was a lot more. About 5 pages worth. H has never NEVER talked about his feelings. I didn't even know how to respond. I texted' him to tell him I got it & thanked him for it & appreciated him being so real & honest & that it gave me so much to think about. I suggested he share it with his IC. I didn't know what else to say. He called this morning to talk the bike & his plans for the day. Very light conversation. I'm being cautiously optimistic. I have a long way to go. I get the concept of forgiving, it's the execution that's elusive.

In the meantime, I'm GAL, focusing on what I can change in me, focusing on what I want my future to be with a new career & new possibilities. I am working to regain my own value & worth. And I'm hoping he means everything & it isn't just words/cheaper to keep her games. Time will tell I suppose.

How are you UC? Hope your week/weekend is good.

[UpperCu]

Wow. My jaw just dropped to the floor reading that. If my W said all that I wouldn't have a clue what to say either!

You're on the right track with GALing for yourself. Sounds like he is going through a lot of internal growing pains, but he has to figure that out for himself. And I'm sure he will. Be patient and give him time. DBing can be two steps forward, one step back sometimes. Observe, but don't obsess over what he says. Trust, but verify.

When do you see him next?

I'm doing well, my W has been on my heart and mind a lot this past week. Just been praying for her, but haven't had any interaction with her in over a month. My life has been crazy busy too. My GAL has gotten out of control... Lol. Today I had canceled lunch plans with some friends to meet up with another guy. While I was at lunch a third person was trying to meet up for lunch too. God has provided many people and activities for me to keep me occupied and moving forward!

Hope you're doing well!

[Clairee]

Keeping busy is the only thing that keeps me sane. Sounds like you on the go go go too. It helps for sure. I get you on the jaw dropping. I read the email at least 3 times because it was unexpected & so real. H has never said anything even close to this before. He has a lot of work to do on himself before I'm really ready to move too far ahead. Right now, I stay busy & when we talk I keep it very light & cheerful. He's struggling so I try to validate where I can & offer positive reinforcements. Making sure I thank him when he does or says something, letting him know I see his efforts & appreciate his willingness to work on things, but at the same time keeping some distance to not get pulled back only to have him quit.

I will see him in 9 days. I'm nervous as all get out about it. So I'm trying to do things to keep my mind off it. It'll be 10 weeks since I've seen him & 5 weeks since the BD.

Good to hear you're doing well & staying busy too. It really does help. Hopefully things will continue on the positive path for you. I believe God has a plan for ech of us & reveals it as we need to know. Staying focused on my own healing keeps me grounded & moving forward. Whether my H changes or not, I know I will come out of this dark place as a better person & understanding myself better. I pray H is sincere & fully committed to the changes he needs, not for me or our M but for himself. I know he's a good person & somewhere inside him is the man he is suppose to be & I believe wants to be. He just has to find it. I can't do it for him.

Tweets

[UpperCu]

How's it going tweets?

[Clairee]

Hiya UC! How ya doing?

It's crazy busy around here. All weekend was spent running all over the island getting things I or the kids needed before I leave for the mainland. Getting some last minute cleaning & laundry done. I'm always amazed how much laundry my kids dirty every week..lol Things are tense on the M front. I'm sure it's my nerves about the trip. H has been understanding, supportive & trying his best to keep me calm. I wish there was a magic wand I could wave that would take the hurt away. I am struggling with that especially as the flight time gets closer. I'm hoping being face to face helps move this forward. I won't see my IC until I get back next week but she gave me her private cell if I needed her while I was gone. H saw his IC this week & his suggested we not discuss anything the day I get there. He said you should never discuss important issues if you're tired or hungry. Not sure how I feel about this. My orginal plan was to get there, sit down & have this talk, ask everything I need to ask face to face & then spend the rest of the weekend trying to enjoy just being together, try to reconnect in some way. I don't want to spend the entire time talking about the sitch ya know? I don't think that would do me any good & certainly not our R to just hash & rehash. I know what I want to know. I have questions written down so I don't lose my thoughts & I really want to just get passed this part. It's going to be uncomfortable, painful & awkward enough. My flight gets in late because of the time zone difference but it will feel earlier to me than it is. Any thoughts on the IC advice or my plans?

Tweets

[Sotto]

Hi Tweets, do you think it is worth sharing how you feel with your H? I agree that it may be best to settle in before you have a talk, but would it help if you maybe agreed - we won't talk the night you get in. But we'll talk for an hour or so the next morning. Then we'll enjoy our day together. Then we can talk for an hour or so the next morning....and so on.

Your H may be feeling the same, and perhaps agreeing a plan may help you both??

[Clairee]

Thank you so much Toots! I took your advice & we waited to the next morning to talk.

It turned out to be a really good weekend. I was fine during the flight, but the minute the wheels touched down my anxiety level went through the roof. I came down the escalator into baggage claim & H was standing there waiting with flowers. I swear I felt my heart in my throat those last few steps. H hugged me & it felt so good to be that close to him again but at the same time it was awkward. We chit chatted about the flight on the way to the hotel. When we got to the room, I unpacked the things I had brought for him. One of his biggest complaints about being there has been the food, so I had packed/frozen some home cooked meals & brought them. Along with snacks he can't get on the mainland. H commented that I always know what he wants & how much I take care of him. I took a shower & went to bed. Sleep came easier than I thought it would that night.

Friday he left for class early, so that gave me time to gather my thoughts & composure. I stopped at the little coffee shop then took a walk down by the water. When he got out of class, we sat down to talk. H asked if he could talk before I started asking any questions. He apologized for everything he had done, for the betrayal, lies, hurting me, hurting us. He held my hands, looked me in the eyes & apologized for having put the look of emptiness in my eyes. H cried! I've been with this man for 18 years & I can recall every time I've seen him cry, it happens so rarely. By the time he was done talking, he had answered almost all the questions I intended to ask. He was brutally honest & very raw. It was hard to sit there listening to him, seeing him cry & feeling his hands shake in mine. The only thing I really had left to ask was what was he going to do & how could he be confident this would never happen again. H said he could be confident because he never wanted to feel this way again & he never wanted to see so much pain & loss in my eyes again. He said he did that to me, he put that there & he'd sooner walk into traffic before doing it again. He said everything was a choice he made. Not in the moment, but little choices over the years that in his mind justified the choices he made that night & the weeks after. He plans to stay in IC to continue working on his issues & understanding of why he made the choices he did & to learn the skills he needs to not repeat the past. I ended the conversation. Without much effort on my part, I heard what I had wanted from him. I didn't feel like we needed to keep going at that point. I reached the level of comfort I needed to know we could move forward.

Being able to look him in the eyes, see his body language & really hear in his voice the emotions made all the difference in the world. I can't say I forgive him, but that's on me to work through. Forgiveness has always been hard for me with anyone. But I know I want to forgive him & I want to let this go. That's the subject of my next IC tomorrow. We both agreed we will need MC once we are back together. We also agreed to not talk about this again until he is back home & only in MC.

We had a great weekend from that point on. Friday it rained all day, so we had to cancel our original plans. We went to the mall instead & just wandered around. Saturday we went with a group of friends for a motorcycle ride raising money for military families. It was a huge event & we had so much fun. We probably put 300 miles on the bike that day. It felt so good to laugh & feel connected to him again. By the end of the night, I could feel the hope I needed that we could make this work & that he was truly sincere in everything he had been saying. I'm glad I went for the weekend.

I was suppose to fly out Sunday, but my flight ended up being so delayed that I was going to miss my connecting flight. So the airlines changed my flight to Monday morning, paid for the hotel, dinner & gave me a certificate for a free flight. They upgraded me on my flights Monday to first class. Now that is the way to fly! I got home, turned my phone back on & had over 20 texts from H, an email & he had called ahead to have a car waiting for me at the airport to take me home so I didn't have to wait on a taxi. Now it's back to the day to day grindstone. H doesn't come home until the end of June. So there's still a long wait for us to really move forward with MC & all the work it will take putting our M back together. I'm not a patient person so if you've ever seen the movie Finding Nemo, I just keep swimming, swimming. Lol

[Clairee]

Happy Saturday everyone. Nothing new on the R front. Had my weekly IC, she gave me homework on forgiveness. That's a struggle. How to you forgive someone who hurts you so deeply? I've read & she even talked about it being a process & it's for me, not H. But dang it! It feels like to say I forgive you is just letting him off the hook & not being accountable for what he did! I'd love to know how others have gotten past this part. H is trying, I know he is & I believe his efforts are genuine & sincere, but I just can't get passed the man I married did this. I hear his reasoning why he thinks it all happened & all I want to do is smack him upside the head & yell I was lonely too you jacka$$!

Not much going on today, oldest D has a party this afternoon so spending the morning cleaning around the house. My MIL finally moved out so I got my front room back & need to get my rear is gear to redo that room.

Hope everyone is having a good weekend. Best wishes to you all! Aloha!!

[Sotto]

Hi Tweets, I hear what you're saying about forgiveness. I think we need to find it within ourselves whichever way, and it's a journey to get there. I think your H's sincere efforts will help for sure. Twinmom has posted recently about her own struggles with it & that may be useful to read too.

Nothing else useful to add, I'm afraid....but good luck to you :-)

[Clairee]

Aloha Toots!!

Oh my gosh you are truly a blessing! I read Twin's post & I swear I thought I had written it. I guess it's something common we all face. I'm sad there's someone else who feels like I do, but it helps not feeling alone or nuts either. I hope you are doing well, I have tried to catch up on your S & goodness you are one strong, tough, graceful lady!! I have read your advice to others & think Wow! Here she is with her own struggles & yet she's giving so much to others. You are a very special person & I'm thankful to have learned from you wise, sometimes tough love, advice. I pray for you to have the peace & joy you so rightly deserve.

Tweets

[Clairee]

️️Aloha folks!

Everything is chugging along here. I may or may not have said on here that my MIL lived with us for a year. Her 3rd husband died a year ago January & she moved in with us shortly after. It turned out all she wanted was our zip code, not family. This was something I worried about before she moved & H assured me he had talked to her & she sincerely wanted to get to know her grandkids. All ended up being horse crap. We paid all her expenses, she was mean to the kids & very passive aggressive towards me. I can't begin to express how much I wanted her out of my house. She finally moved out a couple of weeks ago, so I have my front bedroom back. That's my project this week. I've cleaned out & reorganized the pantry & cabinets in the kitchen. Now I'm putting that room back the way I want it for an office/spare room & will then be able to empty out my 'Harry Potter' room. We have a small storage room under the stairs, my girls started calling it the Harry Potter room & is just stuck so now we all call it that.

School is about to get out for the summer & H comes home the end of June. D12 has hula competitions all summer so I'll be traveling with her to those. I am not a huge outdoor nature person, I like the beach. But I've made plans to go on some hikes over the summer with the kids & even agreed to go on the zipline on North Shore. Have I mentioned I'm terrified of heights? LOL this is going to be interesting. H wants for the 2 of us to take sailing classes & maybe buy a boat. And on the subject of H....

I can't say things are bad but they just seem off. I can't put my finger on what I'm feeling is going on. H spent all weekend doing some motorcycle runs for Memorial Day. Everything seemed ok Friday when he left for LA & Fridsy night. Saturday he was on the road a lot & I was busy with cookouts & such with friends. One of the prospects earned his patch Saturday, so there was a big patch party that night & a lot of drinking. One of my boundaries was no drinking. So H called & asked if he could have a shot or 2 celebrating with his new brother. I said it was fine. I've come to realize, alcohol was just an excuse & not the cause, I'm not his mother & he understands very clearly that any screwup at this stage is the end for me. So I've let that one go. It was Satueday I started noticing the tone difference in his voice. Again, can't put my finger on it but he sounded withdrawn. H did tell me that the girlfriend of mine who called to drop his bomb for him was there & she wouldn't even speak to him & barely looked at him. Could this be the cause of the off-ness? I know mind reading but it bothers me.

Now back to me....I plan to reorganize the inside of the house this week, downsize the clutter that's built up & then move on to the garage. It's driving me mad how disorganized it is! My goal is to have all this done before H gets home. For me, that's a 180 because in the past I would've waited for him to do it & just let it slide till he did. Not anymore! I'm done with the hoarding everyone is this house has been doing & I want it all clean & organized!! I found 5 bottles of laundry detergent in my pantry closet. What was I thinking?!? Probably a sale & I thought I should stock up. But I forgot I even had it!

I think I'm beginning to have a breakthrough as far as forgiving. The last couple of days I don't think about what's happened much & I feel myself just wanting to let it go. Baby steps closer. My question, when I reach the point where I'm 100% ready to let it go & put it behind us, do I tell H that or just move on & let it be? Does saying the words make a difference to H & our M? Or are they just words? I know I needed to hear his apologies to start this process, does he need to hear my forgiveness to lessen whatever remorse he feels so he can move forward too? Forgiveness is very unfamiliar for me, so as sad as this sounds, I really don't know what the other person needs from it. Advice please.

Well it's time to start dinner & figure out what to do after. I'm thinking of taking my 2 85# dogs on a walk. Hopefully they let me walk them & not them walking me!

Oh another GAL I didn't mention, I'm starting my workouts again. Time to shed these pounds & feel good about myself in that aspect again. I'm starting with a 15 day juicing cleanse with some moderate exercise than I'm going to do P90X3! Eck!!

Have a great day/evening everyone!!

[Clairee]

Today has been a frustrating day! Started with someone thinking they would help me out by distributing information that hadn't been approved for release yet & having to spend 3 hours this morning cleaning up that mess. Then every time H calls he just annoys me. He calls to ask me something then when I'm trying to answer he's reading email, on FB or messing with the playstation. Why bother me if you're not going to listen when I'm talking?!?! Ugh! I need a glass of wine & a hot tub! End of rant.

[twinmom]

Tweets, I have been meaning to post to you..... My thoughts are all over the place and I delete every response I type. Leaving for Disney in 3 days and my mind is so scattered.....

It's ok to break down!

[Sotto]

Hi Tweets, sorry you're having a frustrating day....although hot tub and wine in Hawaii to look forward to sounds very nice....just hunting for my passport..

I don't have much advice in terms of your H. However, I would continue to have low expectations and move forward with your stuff. If he wants to catch up, he will. As for your post above and things seeming 'off.' It could be that he has pulled back a little after being so keen to try and resolve things. I don't think that's a huge problem and it often happens. The problem occurs when we have expectations that things will move forward at a certain pace, in a certain way - and then are disappointed.

Thanks for your kind comments on my thread. I always question myself. Am I at all remarkable? I don't feel in any way remarkable you know. Although I guess we all are to an extent - in that we hope to save our M's in often the most difficult of circumstances - that's worth remarking upon for sure!!

Hope your day improves xx

[Clairee]

Thanks Twin & Toots for stopping by!

Twin....I would love to be going to Disney! I've not been in years & everytime I make the plans, something always comes up. Maybe one of these days I'll make it back to California & go.

Toots...this rollercoaster just [censored]! Last night had my wine & quiet time to myself to think. I realized it really wasn't him pulling back, it was me. I'm so afraid that because things are moving forward, he will get complacent & stop putting forth effort. I'm sure everyone who was/is at this stage of the repair/rebuild probably felt the same way. It's tough knowing how far to push/pull. Since we are still 30 days from H coming home, I have a lot more alone time to focus on me, my needs, my wants & desires so I can articulate them when we are back together & in MC.

One thing this whole thing has really shown me is how much I needed to change myself & take back control of my life instead of pushing it aside for everyone else. It's also made me face some hard truths about myself that I probably never would have acknowledged. I wasn't the best wife I could be or as attentive as I should have been. Sure I did a lot of things for H & the kids. I made sacrifices for what they wanted. But by neglecting my own needs & wants, I became closed off & resentful. Whether intentional or not, I punished H by ignoring his feelings out of my resentment. And I blamed him for my unhappiness. If I had to find positives in this most painful of situations, I guess my newfound growth is it. Always a silver lining I auppose.

Lazy evening tonight. Having an impromptu movie night with the kids. They're all spread out in the living room with popcorn, candy & sodas watching Percy Jackson movies. It's the little things like this I'm most thankful.

[Bob723]

Hi Tweets,

How are you today?

I wish you well.

Bob

[Clairee]

Hi Bob! Thanks for stopping by. I'm doing pretty good. It's been a busy weekend playing chauffeur for all the kids. I try to grocery shop during the week when it isn't as crowded, but the week has been so busy I never got the chance. So yesterday, I braved the store. It took forever! I adore my kids, but I don't have much patience for others, especially when Mom is too busy yapping on her cell phone to pay attention to them. Since my kids were old enough to understand words coming out of my mouth, I've had 3 rules for shopping. Be quiet & respectful of those around you, look with your eyes & not your hands, if you want something, you ask politely & if the answer is no, you don't keep asking or we will leave without finishing & they will do additional chores at home for being rude. So when there's a kid running up & down the aisles, screaming & pulling things off the shelf onto the floor & Mom is too busy gossiping about the neighbors, I lose my patience! But I survived it! LOL

Today is laundry & tidy the house day before the school week starts again. They have 2 days of school left. I can't believe S17 is about to be a senior in HS. Time really went by so fast.

How are you doing? I've been following your posts, but hadn't said hello yet. Hope all is good for you.

Tweets

[Bob723]

Hi Tweets! You're welcome, I love trying to help others with advice or words of encouragement. It sure does sound like you've had a busy weekend. It seems like you handled the store as best you could. Good for you!

Our children sure do grow up quickly, don't they? My 3 children (from my first marraige) are all in college now. Where does the time go?

I am doing great today, thanks for asking Tweets. Tomorrow, could be a different story. It will be my 14th Wedding Anniversary, and I don't expect to hear my W. I am not going to contact her, either. I'm keeping a positive attitude with the help of the loving, caring folks on the DB site.

(Wonka and Toots have been especially helpful.)

Have a great rest of the weekend.

{{{Tweets}}}

[Clairee]

Good to hear today is a good day for you!! We never know what tomorrow may bring & tomorrow is never guaranteed but we can definitely make the most of the day we have been given. The anniversary of H & I dating happened shortly after BD. I was a hot mess!! Now looking back I realize, when BD happened it changed all those anniversaries. Those were tied to my M that was messed up. So I've decided to not celebrate those. Old M is gone. So old anniversaries are gone with it. Onward to a new milestones, new accomplishments & if H really means what he is saying, a new M too. And with all the new comes new anniversaries & celebrations.

[Clairee]

Ok, need some words of wisdom. Here's the deal...

So H texts me earlier & says he & some of the guys are riding up to OC to support a buddy, not sure of the particulars. No biggie, ride safe. Then an hour or so later H tells me, OW brother will be there. If you've read my sitch, you know one of my boundaries was no contact with OW or her family. I tell H how I feel, I'm not comfortable with it, don't like it, am not happy. But I'm not his mother or his keeper, it's his decision. He knows where I stand & how I feel. H decides to go anyway. Saying he's not going for OW brother, but for friend. H doesn't tell me he's decided to go. I have to ask him what he's decided. I feel like I have to pry the info out of him. I'm fuming right now. H knows my boundaries well. He knew when he said it I wasn't going to be happy or want him to go. This is exactly what I've been worried about. H getting complacent & pushing aside my boundaries/feelings. Now I'm sitting here just pissed off. Thoughts?

[mvgfwd2]

Even though he "asked" he still knowingly ignored something you feel strongly about. The question is "what did YOU intend to do when he violated one of your boundaries?"

With no consequences boundaries are just hopeful suggestions and begging. Begging is weak, action is strong.

[Clairee]

So it turns out, the reason for going was the friends daughter was hit by a car in front of their house & in ICU. I totally get wanting to be there for your friend. I still have huge issues with the OW brother being around at all. I have issues he didn't tell me why he was going as soon as he knew what had happened. I have restated my boundaries & clearly stated the consequences. Here is what I listed out...

1. Absolutely no contact of any kind in any form with or about OW
2. No unnecessary contact with OW family. If at the hospital or friends house at the same time, very minimal, limited interaction...ie can say hello. No need for chit chat. Once situation is over, no contact.
3. No getting drunk
4. Do not give phone # out randomly. If to another woman, tell me immediately, disclose who she is & there needs to be a reason other than filling time, being friendly or chit chat. I've been down this road, won't do it again.
5. Absolutel full transparency. No secrets. Full disclosure of any & everything. Email, phone, texts, facebook, etc.
6. If going to be out of contact, let me know so I don't wonder about whereabouts
7. If going out all night, call or text occasionally so I know everything is ok. Doesn't need to be every hour but every few hours would be appreciated.
8. If at any time you don't agree with a boundary or feel it should change, discuss it before any situation, not during or after. None of these boundaries prohibit emergency situations & only an emergency would be valid to veer away from them.

As for consequences, I was in no uncertain terms clear that if he agreed to these boundaries, any breaking of them would be the end of any reconciliation.

H agreed. I ask several times if he understood them & the consequences. Asked if he had any questions. Asked if he needed anything at all clarified. Told him I wasn't beating him up with questions but wanted to make absolute sure he fully & without question understood what he was agreeing to. H said he did & he agreed to follow the boundaries.

Am I being unreasonable with any of this?

[Clairee]

H said he thought being this kind of situation I would understand. And he's right, if he had told me from the start or as soon as he knew the details. But waiting until after the fact wasn't acceptable. I wanted to make sure from here on out there were no questions about what I would or wouldn't understand. And what he needed to do. I didn't add this to the last post but I did add that if he had any contact with OW family, he needed to let me know as soon as possible & not delay because if I hear it from someone else before him, that's just asking for problems.

[mvgfwd2]

Just remember you don't need to keep telling him what your going to do. You just have to do them. Talk is cheap, action is powerful. For instance, if he breaks a boundary telling him you're done reconciling vs. unfriending him on FB or setting an auto reply that his calls, texts, and email are auto-deleted and won't be answered. The first he can talk you out of it, the second it's a done deal where he has to make a real effort to get back, not just smooth talk.

[Clairee]

Waking up this morning I realized I need to detach more. Since we had decided to work on things, I had become far too available for him whenever he wanted to talk. As much as I stay busy with the kids, I've stopped doing a lot of the things I enjoyed so I could be there to talk to him. It's time to take a step back & refocus on me. Today is my D12's graduation from 6th grade & the last day of school. So today, I'm going to go to her graduation & after school is out take them all to the beach for a late afternoon celebration of summer break. I have a lot of work to do in the house I've been putting off. That's going to be my project for the rest of the week. I want to reorganize the closets, cabinets & garage(H's domain & it drives me batty how a mess it is). And I'm going to just keep telling myself 'GAL Tweets' until Tweets has a life!

[Sotto]

Hi Tweets, I'm sorry all of that happened, and I think you are right to detach more and focus on things you enjoy. It's always worth buying some space and time to think, particularly if you feel angry about something. One of the big things I have learned is - if in doubt - do nothing.

That said, it's a shame that your H just didn't tell you straight away, particularly after agreeing to a full plan with you. However, I don't think it's ever going to be plain sailing in these early days, and whilst seeing OW brother wasn't ideal, at least it wasn't seeing OW herself.

I think you have a good way forward already, and I would just keep moving forward, maintain a degree of detachment and remain open to reconciliation for now. You can always review your position if you feel uncomfortable.

Good luck with things :-)

[Clairee]

Hi Toots! Thanks for stopping by & checking on me. Hope you're doing well & having a good day.

I do need more detachment. When I'm not, I feel like he is getting too comfortable in things & doesn't need to keep working. And I start to ignore or overlook things. If we're going to make this work, neither of those things can keep happening.

In more positive news, my baby graduated on to middle school today. I can't believe that tiny little thing I almost lost during delivery has grown up so fast. It seems like yesterday looking at her laying in NICU so tiny, but so perfect. Time slips away too fast. It won't be long till all of them are grown & on their own. It really puts into perspective just how fast time can get away from us & what a gift it really is.

Focus on today, tomorrow isn't promised. Make the most of every minute & be thankful for everything you have.

[twinmom]

How are you...... thinking about you a lot lately. Hoping you are having positive days.

[Clairee]

Aloha Twin!

Thanks for stopping by. Hope all is well with you.

Things have been busy around here. I'm downsizing every room in the house. The storage room under the stairs in completely cleared out. I am so happy to have my front guest room back. It's as put together as I can get it right now. I'm looking for a sleeper sofa or futon to go in there for guests. Right now it has a twin bed & that won't cut it for a couple. The office is set back up & I finally feel like things are coming together. I start working on the garage tomorrow. Now that's going to be a lot of work.

Nothing really new on the R front. H comes home in 2 weeks. He's been gone almost 9 months now. I'm nervous, anxious, excited overall a ball of nerves. So I'm just keeping busy.

On the GAL road, I'm not a craft person. I never have been. It takes so much patience & I have so little. That being said, I signed up for a beginners pottery class. Eck! All my girlfriends are getting a big laugh about this, they know just how craft oriented I am...LOL I also signed up for surf lessons. D12 has been begging me to do it with her, so I broke down & signed up. Another Eck!

It's been really nice the kids being out of school. They sleep in, so I get my quiet mornings for a little while. And my girls have been helpful with cleaning out rooms & closets. S17 just stays out of the way. He says I'm a crazed lunatic when I'm in cleaning mode & it's scare him his room might be next. I love that kid but he's such a goof!

Starting next Tuesday the movie theater is having $1 movie mornings. All animated movies for kids. So the girls & I have a breakfast date.

So that's about it for tonight. Going to relax on the lanai with some coffee & a book.

[Clairee]

New developments.

So H came home yesterday. It was overwhelming & it was hard to deal with everything I was feeling. Today things were much better until I checked his laptop & found out he had created a new email & was chatting with another woman. I'm stunned. Maybe I shouldn't be. But it really caught me off guard. I don't even know what my next step is. I feel like it's April all over again & all the hurt, disappointed & everything else is back again.

[Clairee]

To add insult to injury, he said he loves her because she listens to him & she was plan b. If this didn't work, he had someone else. He decided he deserves to be happy, not that I ever suggested otherwise. He's been talking to her for about 3 weeks. How do you love someone after only emailing 3 weeks?!?! I'm angry. I'm hurt. Right now is when I could use some wisdom from you guys. I don't know what do to. We're in the car on the way to dinner with friends & all I want to do is throw him out & cry.

[Sotto]

Tweets, I am so sorry to hear that. I can't imagine how rough that must feel (well, actually I can unfortunately )

So, it sounds as though - even though your H made promises, he is wayward just now. His focus is 'out there' rather than on rebuilding your M. He is looking for green grass and affirmation from other women.

I know what you are saying about the I love you. My H and OW exchanged ILYs within a couple of weeks - all swept away with the high emotion. You just have to remember that two broken people will do dysfunctional things.

I think your focus needs to be on self-protection, self-preservation and boundaries.

From your perspective, are you willing to remain in the R whilst he emails other women and tells them 'ILY...and you are my plan B??" (what 'plan' does that make you and your M??) Do you plan to confront him about this?

I"m so sorry things are so rough, and I think you need some vet advice....bat call to vets for Tweets!!

Take care xx

[Clairee]

I confronted him. That's when he told me they were his plan b. He said he didn't believe I could be different & that things could change. I told him how can he say that when he didn't even give me the chance to try. He just got home yesterday! He's been 2600 miles away. How from 2600 miles was I suppose to show him anything?! I told him if he has come home & 6 months from now nothing had changed, I could understand this happening. But he hadn't even gotten home!! It was literally the weekend after I left visiting him he started talking to her. Her boyfriend is a friend of his for goodness sake! I am so at a loss.

[Clairee]

One thing that bothers me, he says...even now after me finding this & all his excuses, he wants the M to work & doesn't want a divorce. But he doesn't believe things will change?! He said he loves me, doesn't love her like he loves me. And if I could change no one would ever take my place. But he did this BEFORE even getting home for us to try!! He called her on speaker to tell her not to contact him anymore that he was focusing on his family & he was wrong to do this to his family. That came after I gave him an ultimatum, it was me or her, it was either zero contact or there was not even a step forward. So why say all that he said about loving me, not wanting a divorce & making that phone call, then say he doesn't think I'll change? Ugh!

[Sotto]

It's hard to understand the logic of a WAS - it's a mess inside their heads okay? A book just popped into my head as I was reading your posts. It helped me a lot when I was at your stage in the game. It's by Andrew G Marshall and it's the one about my H not loving me and texting someone else. It complements MWD's excellent books very well and helped me understand the WAH mentality. It may be available as an E book.

What I would say is that your H is saying one thing and doing another. My H did the same, and I think you should prepare yourself that this may happen for a little while yet. And the important thing is to take care of yourself and have clear boundaries.

I need to go now - all day workshop. But do take care - I hope someone else chimes in for you and I'll post again later.

(((((((Tweets))))))))

[asitis]

Very sorry H is putting you through this.

Sometimes - and I think this is one of those cases - we have to cycle back to basics. If he has a plan B, is outward focus, etc., no sense working on the M. Tell him that when he says he still wants to save M. The only way to save M is him cutting all contact w/ OW and investing himself fully in saving the M. Period. End of story. Non-negotiable. If he questions it, just hit him with the gospel that any decent MC will tell him that it just doesn't work while there are three people involved, and you aren't going to waste your time and his while he is going on w/ OW.

Reassert your protective boundaries. No cake eating by him. Refocus on yourself and your life. All those sorts of things you were hoping to not have to ever do again.

On the saying he loves her after only a few weeks: this is typical running away from painful feelings rather than facing them. He doesn't love her. She just gives him that short-term fix that allows him to soothe that pain that is deep in his soul.

Finally, don't expect a lot of rational thought or responses from H at this moment. He is not in that place. Nothing he says can be taken at face value and he will likely be all over the place. He has no idea what he really feels or wants, just like he can't possibly know that he loves this W. Don't waste your energy trying to puzzle this all out and make sense of it, it will only add a headache to the rest of the suffering and pain.

Good luck & sorry again.

[Clairee]

Thanks you guys. H tells me today he absolutely wants to make the M work. He terminated the email address this morning. Last night he called OW with me on speaker, she didn't answer. H left a message that he was focusing on his M & family, that what they did was wrong & to not make contact with him. He deleted the numbers out of his phone, deleted her email address & removed her from FB. I don't know if that really means anything at this point. H said he wanted us to go to MC. He makes all these grand statements but then does this. Is this MLC? Addition to attention? Needs affirmation from younger women? What the ?!$& This is not the man I married. And none of this happened until he was 2600 miles from home, alone with no one around & nothing to do. I fully admit things weren't great. But what gives?

Today we took the kids to the beach. We had promised them that as soon as Dad got home we'd spend the entire day. H was all lovey. Wanting to put his arms around me & kiss me while we were floating in the water. Held my hand on the drive to & from the beach, said I love you all the time. I didn't reject it in front of the kids. They don't know anything. I've done my best to shield them from everything. My Ds are far too sensitive & it would shake their world. They get upset if they think we're arguing about anything.

When we got home, he went to the store for me. While I was cooking dinner, he told me how great of a day it was & how if we could make everyday like this we'd be the best there ever was. Said that I have made him feel unappreciated & that he didn't matter to me. Said if I could change how I treated him over the years, no one else would ever measure up to me. We had that discussion not even 2 months ago & I validated his feelings at the time. Apologized for letting him think I didn't love or appreciate him. We both agreed over the phone & through text would make it almost impossible for me to show him any change. But through phone & text, I did what I could. We both took the 5 love languages quiz & I found I had been showing him the way I wanted to be shown but not the way he did. Since then, I've emailed him every night before I went to bed so he woke up to it. I've stopped what I was doing when he wanted to talk. I've listened, active listening, to what he had to say. I've validated when I could. Made reassurances when he needed them. Not sure what else I could do from so far away.

After his talk today, I just asked if he was 100% in this? If he was then it has to be only us, me & him. No 3rd person. That he can't give our M it's fair try if he's putting time & energy into someone else. That it will never work if he's dividing his thoughts & energy. He agreed.

But like the vets on here say, believe none of what they say & only half of what they do.

Ugh! Just ugh!

[Sotto]

Hi Tweets, I'm pleased that your H wants to try and work things out. I would just stay mindful that he did something similar last time. He seemed genuinely remorseful, but then went back to the previous behaviour.

I see some of that in his behaviour yesterday, being super affectionate with you. Like he just wants all the other stuff to be 'gone' - but then he still needs it and drifts back into it. I feel he isn't actually doing the work, you know?

One thing AGM talks about is people pleasing. H's who are caught cheating say 'I'll do anything to make this work' with you.' But then OW that they've been in touch with wants to keep in touch - and they don't want to be hurtful. Then they think - what harm can an email do? And off you go again....

I think you are doing well with the boundaries. I agree that this is time for you to think - what do I need in order to focus my efforts on the M? Full transparency? What does that look like? What do I need from H to start rebuilding trust? and so on. I wouldn't make it too easy with him. One of the mistakes I made with my H was not recognise the seriousness of him emailing OW to say he couldn't stop thinking about her. He broke things off when I found out. But she was upset, and they became involved again you know? It doesn't mean all is lost, but just to recognise that once there is waywardness, H may be drawn away from the M again.

My H described it as Pandora's box. It had been opened and he realised there were women out there who were interested in him.....once he had that realisation, it drew him away from the M. And I think there needs to be a 'shaken to the core' moment that he may lose the M in order for him to turn back.

Sorry - that may not be a very optimistic post, and I am keen to help. Maybe your experience might be different to mine....I hope so!!

Take care, Toots xx

[Clairee]

Well not too much to report. H has been affectionate & attentive all week. He went online & found a MC for us he thought would be a good fit. The MC follows the Gottman Method. I had to google that since I had never heard of it. I spoke to the MC directly yesterday before deciding if I thought he would be a good fit. He's pro-marriage & unless there is abuse doesn't think divorce is the answer for any couple. That was encouraging & also what H said of why he chose him. Just waiting to see if he's covered by our insurance. Should know that today. If not, I found another MC who uses the same method & is covered for sure. I think H is wanting a male MC. He is afraid a woman would beat up on him for what he's done. If a man makes him more apt to going & listening them I'm ok with that. Part of me thinks a man can put things into 'guy' words he can better understand.

I have a head cold. It [censored] so much! Yesterday I could barely function my head & body hurt so much. H was really wonderful. He came home from work, took care of the house things I didn't get done, handled all the teenage girl drama from our Ds & kept them all quiet so I could rest. He brought me tea & soup. Even cleaned up the mess which is a new development! He sat next to me watching TV just letting me rest. I told him he didn't have to stay in the bedroom while I slept but he said he wanted to be close by if I needed something. It was actually really sweet & he's never done it before. When I've been sick in the past, I still did the housework, cooked & whatever while he sat in the recliner & watched TV. I think he's trying, but I'm not reading too much into it at this point.

As for the OW, I asked a few questions. Not much because frankly, I don't care about her that much. But I wanted/needed to know how these I love you's came about. H said about a week before he came home she said it to him in an email. He responded back to it. He said he doesn't know what she meant by 'wait for him' because he had never talked about D or even S with her. I asked if he had talked about me & how. He said he never told her anything bad about me or about us & he showed me an email he sent that said things were rough between us because of being apart & things he had done to mess up while he was gone & he had every intention of making our M work when he got home. Maybe she's reading more into his words than are really there. Who knows. It's mind reading & if she thought more, that's her issue not mine as long as she stays away from me & my family.

Which that brings up a dilemma for me. It's very possible I'll see her when I visit him in California when he goes back at the end of the year. Here's the catch with her, I know her. She knows me. Not well, but we do know each other. It's very likely we could end up in the same room together. And being totally honest, I keep having dreams about that. I'm not a violent person. I never have been. Unless you're trying to hurt my kids, I'm the one everyone calls diplomatic & peace maker. But in my dreams, she's there & without a word I walk over & just beat the crap out of her. I don't know why I'm having these dreams.

Anyway, still not feeling back to normal so just taking it easy today. I have my IC in an few hours & dinner later tonight with a friend of ours who is here on vacation. Tomorrow starts the holiday weekend so we have a lot of family plans. I'm just trying to stay in the moment, not in the past or future. I figure all I have is the current day, nothing else is promised.

[Sotto]

Hi Tweets, good that your H has taken the initiative and arranged the MC. Gottman is good - often mentioned on this forum I notice. Good idea not to care about the OW. I spent far too much time in my sitch worrying about her before I realised she is truly not worth giving mind space to.

Hope your cold is better soon...take care xx

[Clairee]

Thanks Toots.

I had my IC yesterday. It went good. I told her about the MC H had found & she knew him. She said he was good, very good & exactly who she would've recommended for us. That made me feel positive going into this. Still fighting this allergy/head cold. Ugh! Back to some hot tea & my blankets. Have a great weekend!!

[Clairee]

Today has been a hell of a day. H & I fought tonight. He has refused to say much of anything about OW2 or what happened. They emailed. I don't need to see it, telling me details doesn't do us any good. For whatever reason, tonight I couldn't accept those answers anymore. He finally got mad enough at me to answer questions. OW2 emailed him & started it. I asked why he participated. H said it was fun. H said he didn't believe I would change at all so he doesn't feel bad at all for what he did with her. H tells me he isn't afraid of divorce anymore & knows he'd be fine without me. It would be hard but that he deserves better & deserves to be happy. I asked when he started thinking this way or who had influenced this change. H says his new friend at work is going through a divorce & H saw how he was fine & surviving it. I didn't say anything. H says OW2 listened to him, showed genuine interest, made him feel good & was so supportive. OW2 told him she loved him & H said he loved her. H said he meant it that because she did all those things he really felt love. H said OW2 'told him' he needed to work on his marriage but if it didn't work, she'd be waiting for him when he got back to California. H said there were no plans but hypotheticals about their future. H tells me he still wants to be married to me, wants the marriage to work & is committed to doing his part of the work it will take. H says he's sorry he hurt me but he's not sorry for what he did. Listening to him tonight hurt so much. I hear over & over in my head him saying he loved her. He didn't use the word loves, he stayed in past tense. He has cut off communication. But as I sit here tonight, I replay his message to her & wonder if they had talked about this happening. When he left the message, he said 'my wife is with me & you're on speaker'. I didn't think much of it at the time, but now I am eaten up with thoughts that they talked about this. That if I found out, he'd have to call & tell her that. I am even more lost & confused than when I first came to these forums. I love my H. I want our marriage to work, to be healthy & happy. But I question whether that's realistic, will I ever trust him again, is he worth another chance & do I really want to be married to him anymore. I hate having all these questions & uncertainties. I hate feeling like this. Yes, he cut off communication, he deleted the email account, did all those things, but is he being sincere? Is he really committed? Is this all part of some plan they cooked up? Am I just being a fool or being played the fool? I hate all of this!

[mvgfwd2]

divorced friends or ones having A's are the worst people to be around for married people. They frequently work their friends to do the same. Showing only the good, happy side. I required my W to end all relations with friends and family who were like this. They were voices in her head that said A's are fine, she deserves better, you only live once, etc. She is happier now without all their BS and negativity clouding her thoughts.

[Clairee]

Fortunately I guess, this friend is already on the way out of the picture. H isn't in the same state as this guy anymore & they don't text or talk on the phone. But the damage he could do has already been done. I just hope it's not lasting thoughts. H this morning told me he doesn't feel the same way about OW2 as he did when they were talking. I asked how he would handle it if she called & he said he'd tell her they have nothing to talk about & let her know he said not to contact him anymore. I guess that is evidence of how much he really felt about it/her. H made an off the wall comment that what he did showed him I was paying attention. I didn't ask what he meant, I just let him talk. I kept thinking, was it all really to make sure I was paying attention? Some kind of test?

[Sotto]

Hi Tweets, it sounds as though he is partly there, but only partly. Have you read Starsky's post about the four levels of remorse? it is worth having a look as it may help you see where your H is at. The levels go something like this:

1. I'm sorry I got found out
2. I'm sorry I've caused problems for myself
3. I'm sorry I've hurt you
4. I'm sorry for what I have done. It was wrong on so many levels - true remorse

I think WAS's need to really get to the upper levels before they are at a point that they can truly work on the M. Has MC started yet??

[Clairee]

No it hasn't yet. The MC we chose is off island. Our 1st appointment is July 22. I was able to talk to him this morning to schedule the appointment & some brief details. He is encouraged because H is the one who originally left the message to get an appointment. He said if he didn't want to work things out, he wouldn't have agreed to counseling & certainly wouldn't have taken the steps to make it happen. He said I should take that as a positive sign.

[Clairee]

The weekend was pretty good. D12 had a hula performance Saturday. The whole family went to support her, even her older brother who normally would insist on staying home. Saturday evening H & I went for a drive. He wanted to drive to the area we have talked about buying a house so we could really get a feel for the area, figure out the commute & see the neighborhood the house will be built in, On the way back, we stopped at the beach to watch the sunset. H's idea. I sat down on the beach, just close enough for the water to reach my toes. H sat behind me & pulled me back against him with his arms around me. It was really nice & felt like old times. Sunday we did yard work. In the past, he would have done it alone. This time I helped without him asking. It's been my job for the last 9 months so it didn't seem weird to me but H commented several times how much he appreciated & was surprised I was out there with him. The rest of the evening was pretty quiet.

Today H left for a couple of days for work. He's shadowing an inspection team at sea. He got up early so we could spend some quiet time before he left. We were having coffee on the lanai & he told me he felt everything was good between us & if we could just focus on the now & future we would be better than ever. I helped him pack & fixed breakfast. Right before he left, he gave me a long hug & told me he was really going to miss me. About an hour after he left, he texted to say ILY & miss you already.

Not going to question his moods/actions, living in the moment & enjoying the interactions.

[Clairee]

I was doing some reading last night & came across an article about male depression. Could this really be what I'm dealing with? H is military. In Oct 2012, he had a stroke or they think he had a stroke at least, no solid evidence of it but they couldn't find anything else it could be. Because of this, he couldn't continue his job & was put on medical light duty. Until Nov 2014, he has had no real job or purpose at work. During this time, he spent a lot of time diving & working part time for a dive shop. It seemed to help keep his spirits up & he was enjoying it. In Oct 2014, they finally gave him new orders for schools & a new job. He left Nov for California.

H hooked up with old friends of ours & was doing ok. I visited right after Thanksgiving & while not a perfect visit, it was good. We were arguing over this girl he was texting. Nothing intimate or wrong in their conversations, but the quantity bothered me. H wanted me to meet her so I could get to know her & know it was just somebody to talk to to fill the empty hours. I did. She was cold as ice to me. Wouldn't look at me, wouldn't speak if I was around, etc. After H apologized for being so wrong about her intentions. He ended it without any hesitation. H graduated the 1st school & immediately started the next. This one was hard for him. He was struggling with the class work & becoming more & more angry, withdrawn & distant. I encouraged him to hang out with our friends in LA more on the weekends to relax & recharge. H was still really in a funk. He said many times he hated being there, missed me so much it physically hurt & if there was a way he could get out of this & not lose his retirement he'd do it in a heartbeat. He talked about being alone & lonely, talked about he couldn't sleep at night in this cramped little bed without me. That me needed me & didn't work without me. I tried to be as encouraging, supportive & uplifting as possible over phone calls.

Then February, you know what happened. After the reveal, H showed real remorse & said over & over he couldn't live without me. His reasons were loneliness & missing physical contact with me. Then he added all the negative about our M & me. We start to work through it. H is in IC. I'm in IC. We're trying. I visit in May. Things are rough at first. This was the 1st time we've seen each other since BD. We talk, things are settled & moving forward. A week later he starts getting messages from OW2. IMO, she's a predator. She saw us together & even commented how happy we looked & how lucky I was. She's miserable in her relationship & her BF cheats constantly. Next thing I know, this has gone from kinda friendly to ily's. H comes home just 4 weeks later. H says he didn't believe I would change, he still wasn't home & he was just having some fun. H has a new male friend who is in the middle of a divorce & is partying, loving being 'free' & all that. Tells H divorce ain't bad, it's freeing & he's never been happier. Cue H saying he would be ok if we divorced & he'd find happiness with someone else if it happened but he's not afraid of divorce anymore.

Now he's home. There's no contact with OW2 or divorcing friend. He's much more relaxed, sleeping every night, eating right & doing things he enjoys. H starts a temp job. He's really enjoying it. He likes the people & is excited about what he's going to be doing.

Over this last weekend, H hooks up with an old friend he hadn't talked to in a long time. I talk to him, but H hasn't. Friend is going through divorce. Friend is miserable. He hates everything abou divorce, even though he's the one who filed. Tells H it's hard, it hurts & he feels he failed. He's doing whatever he can to keep busy & not think about it but when they have to meet for mediation, he hurts & is lonely.

Now H is being very affectionate, present & loving with me. H talks about our future together daily. H talks about the kids going off to college & it just being us & how he looks forward to growing old with me. H is back to saying he needs me, wants me & doesn't work without me. H leaves yesterday for a couple of days at sea for work. H says he's going to miss me & loves me. Later that day, H texts he misses me already, loves me, can't wait to get home. He's out of contact due to where they are until tomorrow.

So was it depression that led to all this? Add new divorcing friend & predatory OW? Should I talk to H about this? Should I bring it up in MC? Advice, thoughts?

[Clairee]

I guess I should've added that the article I read talked about men with clinical depression ignore the symptoms & tend to selfmedicate. Alcohol, drugs, risky behavior, affairs, etc. As a way to escape the pain they feel. Since about January, H has been drinking more. A lot more. Before leaving for Cali, he would have a few beers. Since January, he's gotten knock down drunk more times than I can count & drinking everyday. He started being more reckless on the motorcycle. Taking bigger risks while riding. When he couldn't ride or couldn't go out with friends, he slept. He slept a lot during the day but had trouble sleeping at night. Everyday for weeks he was napping all day long. He got to playing video games all night. He hasn't done that since our 1st kid was born. Basically if he was standing still too long, he would sleep or drink. As I sit & analyze the last several months, I'm beginning to think he may be suffering from severe depression. And everything he has done was a way to avoid & escape his feelings. But he had guilt, so that's when I became the bad guy, the one to blame for how he felt.

My H is stubborn as a mule. He might admit & accept having depression but he'll cut his arm off with a butter knife before taking medication for it.

What should I do? I think the MC we will be seeing could help him if he were to talk about it honestly. But I'm afraid bringing it up could cause us to fight or him to start pulling back again.

[Cristy]

Oh Tweets,

I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.

Good questions regarding depression & should you speak with H about it.

It would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. Please call me to discuss our program at 303-444-7004.


Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004

[Clairee]

So yesterday afternoon I decided to go ahead & broach the subject about his depression. H listened quietly as I talked about what I had read & how I can see the patterns in how he has been the last 8-9 months. I wasn't sure how he would receive or respond. Much to my relief, he was receptive. He admitted feeling all the things I had described & that I was probably right about it being worse than he allowed himself to feel. He acknowledged & even agreed that he had been self-medicating with anything external to avoid the internal pains he felt. He is worried about talking with our MC about it, fear of it getting back to the military & it putting his job at risk. He asked if I could research more into non-medical treatments or exercises/tools he could use to stem off the feelings if they started happening again. He also asked if I would help him stay more in tune with those feelings. That he never recognized it as happening & maybe I could see it before it became a big problem & help guide him away from the negative behaviors that led to poor judgement & bad choices.

Was kinda knocked off my feet last night by H. While H was gone, I sent him an email letting him know what I want to change in our marriage. A new contract so to speak. One thing I said was spending 30 minutes every day focusing on just us. No phones, kids, etc. Last night after dinner, I suggested we drive to the beach & just sit/talk/relax. We were strolling along, talking about work, changes with it, etc. We sat down at a beach by the water & H started talking about how everything happens for a reason. Then he said he was so sorry for having done anything that hurt me, that he had been thoughtless & insensitve. That he was wrong & regretted doing it. He then backed up & said 'I'm talking about all my infidelities'. This was a huge turn around from just last week when he said he was sorry he hurt me, but didn't regret this OW2 & what happened. I thanked him & told him how much I appreciated him saying that.

I have my IC in a little while, so I'll be talking with her about this. Feeling good today & finally feeling like maybe we will come through all this darkness.

[Clairee]

Good morning my DB friends! Quiet so far, enjoying the breeze & coffee on my lanai. H & I had a good evening. We went for shave ice after dinner, a new place I had tried while he was gone that I wanted to take him to. So we're sitting at the table & H says he wants us to get new family pictures taken. Could have knocked me over with a feather! He hasn't mentioned doing that in several years. We talked about what kind of pictures & the groupings. He said he'd like one of just us & one of just me so he could have me with him wherever he went! I told him I thought those were all great ideas & I would like to have pictures of us. I was doing a happy dance, in my head of course. I remained calm, showing enthusiasm but without looking like the crazy cat lady on catnip.

H decided to take the day off so we could have some alone time today. We have an appointment this afternoon for couples massages. A few days ago, I had an email for an local deal on couples massages. I left it open on my laptop & H saw it & said I should buy that for us. So I did. I'm looking forward to it, I could really use the tension relief.

Other than that, laundry as always & floors to sweep. Tomorrow I have lunch with my hanai sister & touring a chocolate factory. D12 has a make new friends brunch all morning & H plans to take D13 & S17 snorkeling. Sunday we have a motorcycle ride for charity we're going to & a party after.

Hope everyone has a great weekend!!

[Clairee]

Went for the massage yesterday. OMG did she beat me up, in a good way but man am I sore! She was a tiny Korean lady & so soft spoken, so when she barely whispered 'oh you really tight here' it didn't quite compute until I felt what I think was her elbow grinding into my shoulder...lol

Aside from the sadistic massage woman, it's been a good couple of days. H & I spent all morning clearing out the garage, then taking a truck load of boxes to recycle & another truck load to the refuse center. The garage still needs serious organizing but I can see almost all of the floor, so I'm very happy!

Quiet night. Enjoying some coffee & quiet time while H goofs off on a video game & D12 & D13 are at sleepovers.

Hope everyone is having a good weekend.

[Bob723]

Hello Tweets,

Thank you for stopping by my thread. It was SO nice to hear from you...very encouraging to me.

I have done my best to catch up on your situation. I truly feel for you, Tweets, but you seem to be hanging in there. It's great that you went for a massage. It really can help reduce stress...and sometimes hurt a little...but it is worth it.

I hope you had a good day today and I wish you well.

I'll dedicate a prayer to you as soon as I complete this post.

*Hugs*

Bob

[Clairee]

Hi Bob! Thanks for stopping by. Yes the massage was well worth the soreness. I have been so tense for so long & she really went to work on all the knots.

Yesterday was a great day. H & I participated in a school supply drive on of the local motorcycle clubs was having then went to the annual bike blessing. When the minister got to H's bike, he started to bless the bike & H called me over & asked the minister to bless us both. Very shocked & thrilled by this. H normally doesn't ask for him to be blessed, just the bike & he's never included me in it. We spent about 8 hours on the bike in total yesterday. H was very different all day. He never left me to wander off. He stayed pretty close all day. He made sure I always had bottled water or anything he thought I would want. There were a few times I would see another club President or a new club President & would point them out, give H the rundown & send him over to make introductions or renewed contact. In this world, it's important Presidents recognize each other out of respect. So I didn't want him missing someone & an issue come up later. When we got home, H thanked me several times for keeping him up to speed with the other clubs, he's been off island for 9 months & a lot has changed. He told me it really felt like we were a team again & it felt good. I felt the same way. Prior to hm leaving, he didn't involve me much in that kind of stuff. When we would go to these events, I would hang out with the other wives/gfs/flavors of the month, while he wandered around. We would barely speak all day. It was very different yesterday. He held my hand & led me through the crowds, introduced me to everyone he talked to & was attentive.

Sometimes I feel like we're turning the corner, but I'm so afraid to trust it. I'm afraid I'm going to get hurt again, blindsided again & betrayed again. We have our first MC this week. Fingers crossed it goes well.

Take care everyone!

[Clairee]

We had our first MC yesterday. It was good for a 1st session. I was taken back by a comment the therapist made. He said he thought we were a great couple & very intune with each other & questioned why we were there as most couples he sees can barely sit beside each other. We both almost in unison said it wasn't always this way. He asked a lot of questions about us individually & really kind of honed in on H's male influences as a child/teen. I guess we'll be exploring that more. We touched briefly on the BD/OWs. I tried to be honest but without throwing angry daggers at H. I explained the 1st incident I am able to wrap my head around & have truly forgiven. But the 2nd, I can't & I'm angry. I haven't forgiven that & right now, I can't even contemplate forgiveness about it. I threw a few truth darts & they really hit the mark with H's reaction. Overall, it was a good session. We left a little bruised but no arguing about it. We agreed to leave what we say in MC at the office door & understand within those walls we are hashing out the problems. We take only the positives with us & work to expand on those instead of dwelling on anything negative we said. It's a process we have to go through to get out of the dark & into the light.

We see him again next week.

As for today, my mom is visiting from the mainland so I think she has plans to drag me all over the island...lol She kinda goes crazy when she gets here. I really need to teach her aloha time!! Lol

[Clairee]

Great day at the beach yesterday with the whole family. H & I went early to set up the tent & tables. We were there from 8am-4pm. A wee bit sunburned. That happens when you fall asleep in the lounger...lol

H & I stopped for ice cream on the way home. Quiet evening after. I sat on the lanai & read a book while he goofed off playing a game. I needed some quiet time to myself.

H is out for a charity ride today. I didn't feel like going. All day in the sun yesterday, along with getting rolled hard by a few waves took it out of me & I wanted just a peaceful day. Besides, school starts back up this week & I have things I really need to get ready. So today, I'm making my shopping list for lunches & snacks & double checking we have all the supplies the teachers listed. It gets more expensive every year!

I got my acceptance letter to university! I'm really excited to start a new challenge. I graduated university in '92, so going back is scary, but exciting. After spending the last many years in the business world, I'm taking the jump into medical. I'll be doing a dual program. Getting my bachelors & masters in nursing at the same time. After I finish, I will be finishing my PhD online through the same university. The BD & subsequent fallout has made me realize the importance of creating my own financial security. My kids are almost grown & I need to ensure I can take care of my own needs & create my own safety net. So while I am 1000% committed to my M & never facing these challenges again, life is too uncertain to be without my own means.

Hope everyone is having a great weekend!!

[Clairee]

Changing names....just in case. H knows I visit a 'self help' group online & have talked about the issues, but better safe than sorry. Hopefully is doesn't take too long.

[Clairee]

Woke up feeling awful. I get dreams are our self conscious, but geez I wish mine would take a prozac or something & chill out! Had a dream H was talking OW2 still & had just learned to hide it better. That all his talk was just that & the day before he left for school again, he bombed with D papers. Ugh! And believe me, I know I have had that thought several times so I'm not shocked by it but still I'd like to have some boring dreams. I'd settle for dreaming about laundry & dishes!! Now awake, new day, in control of my thoughts, feelings & actions.

[Clairee]

Ugh! H just doesn't get it. He says he's trying. But being really honest here, what has he really done? He broke off communication with OW. He isn't hiding his phone or email or anything. Sometimes he's attentive. And then there are nights like tonight where he's ticked off about something I did & his entire tone is angry no matter what. My crime? We were talking about home buying & before we started looking at houses, I wanted to double check how much we could afford, what are maximum budget was & I didn't read the calculator inputs out loud so he could be included. It took me all of 30 seconds to punch the data in & get the number I was looking for & somehow that's not including him & if I can't include him in these mundane things how is he ever suppose to believe I'll include him in anything else. Yet at the same time, he expects me to forgive what he's done & not bring it up except at counseling. He's allowed to get pi$$y & throw my mistakes at me but I'm suppose to stfu & swallow his. I am so frustrated right now. We have our 2nd MC session tomorrow. This has to be addressed.

[mvgfwd2]

Could be he is grasping any "fault" (real or inflated) to sooth his guilt. Or maybe it's something else. Either way you should not be berated for such things. I don't really understand why you can't talk about his A outside of the MC sessions. I would think open and honest communication is absolutely necessary to understand how all this came to be.

My W was similar in not wanting talk about it. I just told her "I will be talking and asking questions until I am ready to move on. The length of time is what it takes for ME to get straight. You will just have to suck it up." And so far she has.

[hopeOK]

I agree with mvg... I think reserving the counseling session as the only time to talk about the affair is probably not enough. H and I had many many talks outside of counseling & then worked out the areas we were stuck on in counseling.

[Clairee]

I am the one that wanted it left for during counseling. I don't want it to be a focal point of my thoughts. It's already there, I know it, I feel when it dashes through my head, but I'm working to move passed it. When we were talking about the A, it wasn't productive for either of us. In MC, I feel much more comfortable having our therapist guide us through how to ask & answer. We had our session yesterday & we did talk about it & the MC asked H to do several things in regards to what I had said. By the end, H had tears, apologized, sincerely & deeply apologetic & accepted fault, acknowledged the pain he caused, expressed true remorse for the betrayal. It was a HUGE turn around.

As for H getting upset with me the day before, I did bring it up. We talked about it during session & came home with homework on communicating better.

Overall MC has been very good for us. We both feel we're in a safe environment to work though things & it puts us both in a more receptive place than when we tried at home. I adore our MC, he is a genuinely good person & funny. But he doesn't pull punches & doesn't let you off the hook easy. He has really forced H to be completely honest & while H is still unnerved by it at times, he is doing it.

[Clairee]

Ahhhh another Monday. Back to the weekly grindstone. This should actually be a fairly routine, uneventful week.

Had a great weekend. Had a bit of a blow Friday from the doc. She diagnosed me with asthmatic bronchitis & said she would not sign a medical waiver for scuba diving. That hit hard as diving is something H loves to do & we just bought all the gear for me to do it with him. I'm not totally giving up on it yet, but I know realistically it may now never happen.

Saturday had a big BBQ at the house with about 15 friends staying until well after midnight. Had a blast, we watched the Rousey fight then just hung out. Food, drinks, a lot of laughs. It was a much needed good time. Sunday we cleaned up the mess & relaxed around the house. H went with me to doc on Friday & saw my reaction to what was said but he didn't say anything at the time. Last night sitting on the lanai, he brought it up. So we talked about it in depth, he had researched the diagnosis when we got home because he said he didn't fully understand what it meant for me. He is being very supportive & loving. Told me if I never get to dive with him, he would just find another hobby for us to do together & there's no need for me to worry or get upset about it. That helped relieve quite a bit of the stress I was feeling since us not doing things together was a complaint he had & he had been pushing for me to dive with him the last couple of years. So the weekend ended on a good note.

Now it's time to get the day started, get the kids up, breakfast made, lunches packed & get them off to school. Then it's a huge stack of paperwork & phone calls for me. That's the trouble about being 5-6 hours behind the mainland, any calls I need to make have to be done early in the morning.

GAL stuff....kickboxing class this afternoon, lunch with my bestie tomorrow, ceramics class tomorrow night, sailing lesson Wednesday morning, appointment with my school counselor Wednesday afternoon, spa day Thursday, date with H Friday night(I have no idea what he has planned, it's a surprise he says) & Saturday another big BBQ to celebrate my birthday early with friends. Somewhere in between all this is laundry, toilets & the dog groomer.

Happy Monday everyone! Hope you all have a relaxed, stress-free day!!

[Clairee]

We had our 3rd MC session yesterday. Counselor had us talk about good memories we had about things we had done together. It was really good bringing some of those memories into the present. So many we hadn't thought about in years. Things are progressing. Slowly but steadily. H emailed me from work today, he signed us up for a marriage retreat later in the month. Total surprise! I've brought these retreats up in the past only to be shot down as them being stupid or silly. So for him to sign us up is really a big deal. It's a 3 day overnight retreat & the dates couldn't be more perfect. Our kids will be on another island with their grandma the same weekend.

I'm finally feeling confidence about our future. The memories of A are still there but not as strong or as frequent. My anxiety is a lot less & I don't have the urges to snoop anymore. H is being completely transparent. If his phone beeps for anything, he's offering up the info before I can even ask. When he's typing on his phone or computer, he's telling me what's being said & with whom. He doesn't delete his history unless I'm sitting there with him & he scrolls through it to show me. All of this unprompted.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about him leaving again. I'm trying to work through that. And I plan to bring it up during MC.

Rainy day, a tropical storm is moving in so its getting icky. Hopefully it brings some cooler weather.

Have a great day everyone!

[Clairee]

Well the week turned out busier than I planned. I've been knee deep in paperwork for the state setting up a new non profit. D12 surprised me with extra hula classes this week that she was told about last week, but forgot to tell me until it was 15 minutes before class time...very typical.

I will have a house full of people for the weekend doing some training sessions they need to complete. It should be fun. The training is straightforward, just time consuming. But I love this group of people & we always have such a good time together. I expect it to be a lot of fun.

I have my birthday looming next week & everyone is up to something. H, the kids & my Mom have had their heads together far too much lately. So I know they're planning something. I am just hoping it isn't another Mr Potato Head incident. They did that to me several years ago. I was out of town for my birthday at a conference. I got paged to the registration desk. When I got there, this guy is dressed in a Mr Potato Head costume doing some song & dance routine in front of about 200 people. Needless to say, that was the talk all night at the cocktail reception.

[Clairee]

One minute you think you're doing good & the next something triggers a memory. That happened to me today. So had a group of people at the house for training. Mid way through all of a sudden I find myself thinking about OW. The training was on loyalty, trust, & integrity. I kept thinking this scuzzy knew we were married. She had the nerve to call me sister while stabbing me in the back. And now I'm dealing with the fallout of her damsel in distress theater performance. Oh she's a piece of work. One of those miss goody two shoes, sticky sweet, let's be bff ------! Then played the I know what it's like to be away from the ones you love so if you ever need a friend, I'm here card. Followed by the my BF isn't being nice to me boo-hoo whoa is me card. Followed by the you're such a great friend & wonderful person & just so happy you're in my life card: To the I can't help myself I love you BS. Then clingy, needy, I'll wait for you crap. Which of course completely throws me because H hates needy, clingy, dependent women. Always has comments about those kind of women & how unattractive that is: But I've said it before, H suffers from DIDS...damsel in distress syndrome. He just can't stand to see a child or woman upset. H finally admitted it wasn't love of any kind but he felt sorry for her & wanted to help & got caught up in it & before he knew it, he was saying whatever he thought she wanted to hear & didn't think about how it would impact me at all. JERK! That's all I can say here with the censors...LOL

I am not quite fresking out, but definitely stressed over him going back to Cali in a couple of months. I wish there were magic words to make that anxiety go away. Honestly, I don't know what H could say to make that less. He has sworn he won't do it again, swears he will leave if she shows up anywhere, swears he wants only me & that when we're good it never crosses his mind to stray. But I guess I want more than promises or sworn devotions. I want guarantees. But realistically, can he really guarantee that? Can anyone? If so, what is the guarantee? It is if XYZ happens, I guarantee to do this or that? I don't know if he can give me more than his promise he will stay faithful, monogamous & true to me. His actions when he's there will have to match those words, but then how can I see actions from 2000 miles away? H says if he finds himself in a bad place, he'll leave or call me right then.

It's a head meet wall proceed in banging night. I've tried picturing stop signs, tried reading, tried listening to a book on audible, tried meditating & finally came here to unload it hoping that frees my mind.. I do feel better getting this off my chest. These forums have been my lifeline through all of this: I don't know what I would've done had I not stumbled on to them. Advice is welcome & 2*4s if needed.

Tomorrow will be better. It has to be.

[tkdmme]

Clairee,

I don't have advice. I do know how it feels. I wish something could tame this lump from my throat. I've tried everything. Going out, staying away from her, spending more time with the kids. Nothing seems to ease the pain. Like most of us on this Forum I have good days and bad. The mornings Seem to be the worst. I can't go back to sleep lime I used to. There is not OK or A that I know of but I don't think it wuld matter anyway. Once you w or have has said I don't love you anymore it takes hour breath. This is the person I always counted on and now that's gone. I'm praying constantly.
You are right about this forum . It has helped me as well. Keep your head up.

Ps. I have those dreams too. It's aweful

[Clairee]

Thanks TKD for stopping by. The last 10 months have been the hardest in my life that I can remember. Given how broken we were, maybe this was inevitable. Most days OW doesn't even cross my mind, most days the BD & the pain I felt doesn't either. But then something triggers a memory & I get bulldozed with emotions. It's happening less & less, but when it does I realize how much hurt I still have to heal.

We had a good weekend. I can't say great because Saturday started with a memorial service for a friends Dad who passed a couple of weeks ago. It was a beautiful service, but I detest funerals. After we went to celebrate another friends birthday. That was quite a good time: When we first got there our friends fiancé introduced me to another friend & proceeded on this long declaration of how great of a couple H & I were & how she hopes she & her stbH are even half what we are. I chuckled to myself & thought boy if you only knew what these past 6 months have been like. I of course didn't say any of that, just thanked her & said marriage is work, it isn't all rainbows & unicorns.

Yesterday was quiet. Some computer work to get done & the never ending laundry. Today, doc appointments all morning then some shopping. Friends coming over later tonight. Tomorrow hopefully the AC man is on time, I am dying without the AC working!

[Clairee]

Guess I should mention GAL activities...

School is back in session for the kids so I'm helping in their classrooms twice a week, volunteered for the PTO at both schools, organizing a fundraiser for a local charity, start a new workout schedule at a new gym this week(training at a UFC gym with one of their female competitors...very excited to start!!), lunch with gf's whenever our schedules match, Monet & Merlot every Thursday night, sailing lessons every Saturday morning, sunrise yoga on the beach every Sunday.

[Clairee]

Had another MC session today. Talked about boundaries. It was really good. It took awhile, but with some therapist help H was finally able to fully understand my boundaries & what they really mean to me.

I think we've been fired by our MC though. At the end of the session he said he wished he could record us for his other couples. That we were truly a great couple & should never consider splitting up again. That what we have & how we are together is really amazing & we should hold on to it because we'll never find it again anywhere. He almost made me cry! H agreed with him & said he'd never do anything so stupid again that could cause me to leave him.

We still have so much work to do & while the MC might have fired us, we'll still be seeing him once a month instead of weekly. I'm still cautious, but hopeful. With my IC's help I've been able to let go of so much & move forward. And I'm working on my trust for H. He is trying hard to show me everyday I can trust him & that he knows the value of my trust & that doing anything to damage it again would never be repairable. So I'm giving him opportunities to show me. The big test will be when he leaves in October. I am making the choice to trust. I'm not entirely stupid, I've told him I am making this choice, but that doesn't mean blindly trusting. I will from time to time look at things. But honestly, I've not felt any inkling of suspicion & H has not been guarded about anything.

Baby steps. It's still too new to say we've made it to the other side of this black hole. But I can finally see light again. But we'll always be working on us, it will never be perfect. But it can be perfect for us. And that right now is what I hold on to.

Much love everyone!

[hopeOK]

Can you elaborate on your boundaries?

That is great that you guys got such great feedback from your counselor and that he is moving you to just once a month. Also really great that you are having less anxiety & the urge to snoop is gone. I think it must help a lot that he is so forthcoming with what he is doing on his phone. I wish my H would start doing that whenever he is typing on his phone or whenever he gets a message. I am normally sitting right there next to him & can glance over & see but I feel bad for looking (not sure why) & it would be so better if he would just say what he was doing. He has a few times... but not every time. It is such a touchy subject for us (him having felt in the past like he was walking on egg shells & me continually holding the affair over his head) that now I'm a bit gun shy.

So happy for all your progress!

[Clairee]

Hi Hope.

My H was the same way about his phone. We was secretive, never let it out of his sight & it was always dinging. Once he said the words he wanted to work on us, the 1st thing I said was he had to be fully transparent with his actions. That meant the phone, computer, everything. I explained what transparency meant to me. It meant no pass codes on the phone, passwords for all his email, Facebook, etc. it meant I could look at anything & everything whenever I felt I needed to. It meant no deleting anything unless I was sitting next to him until I decided I didn't need that anymore. It meant if he was talking to someone, he needed to tell me who. None of this was because I'm his mother, but because this is a very delicate time & I needed him to show me his actions matched his words.

Our boundaries now aren't necessarily about making me feel comfortable, but more about building the moot as our MC said. Our M is our castle & we have to build defenses around it to safeguard it from outside forces that would mean it harm. Our MC is a big Game of Thrones fan....lol So our boundaries are fairly simple really & they go both ways. My H doesn't give his number out to people who don't necessarily need it. H agrees that talking, texting or any kind of communication with another woman daily shouldn't happen. Same goes for me & other men(had never happened, but boundaries are equal). When we are talking to other people, we don't let them in the M. We don't talk about our problems, complaints or whatever with just anyone. If H is talking to another woman, not only does he tell me, but he pays closer attention to what is being said. If she starts leaning on him, talking about her problems, whoa is me crap, he ends it. At anytime if either of us are uncomfortable with who the other is conversing, we talk about it & if we can't reach a mutual agreement, then we end it. We both have to be comfortable with who the other is interacting with. They're really geared more towards H since he was the one who did these things not me. H told the MC that he didn't really need to ask for boundaries because my self-imposed boundaries were more strict than what he would ask of me. Then we have the common sense boundaries, no contact with OW period. Since there is a chance it could happen when he goes back to Cali, H said if she is at any event he is at, he will leave. There is also a chance OW could be in Las Vegas when we both go for s conference. H was very clear he wouldn't put me in a room with her unless it was a really big & he wouldn't stay in a room with her without me. She told a good mutual friend she was scared of me, so I'm really not too concerned, but boundaries need to be there just in case.

I don't snoop anymore. But I do still pay the bills & see the phone bill once a month. I was very honest with H that I wouldn't snoop, that I expected him to tell me, but that I may or may not look through the phone bill on occasion when paying it. H understands that I'm taking a risk trusting him. He knows this is a high value action & had to be met with the utmost integrity.

It's all baby steps & I still practice DB but on a different level now. This changed me. DB changed me. Things can't be the same as before, not just because it didn't work, but because I will never be that person again. It takes time though & both have to be committed to doing whatever it takes to make it work.

[hopeOK]

Thank you for that info. We had all those extra special boundaries (phone unlock password, fb access, email access, etc) before we fell out... but now I just have phone & email access. So I guess I just don't have all the fb access unless I look on his phone which I have done. I know we have some conversations we need to have about all the other boundaries but I am working on me first so that I do not blow those conversations.

[Clairee]

I didn't have those conversations till he was back in 100%. There's no point until then imo. Once H was firmly 100% committed to us, we had that talk. I had that talk a million times in my head & dozens of times in my journal. I wrote them all down, rewrote them more time than I can remember & then rewrote then again until they were exactly the boundaries I needed & not just acts of control. The time will come for you to have that talk, so really put thought into what boundaries you need to feel comfortable & safe moving forward. Make sure they're boundaries & not just ways to control.

[hopeOK]

That is a good suggestion. I also liked how you said that these were boundaries for both of you guys... I think that is a helpful point to make when I do have that conversation. It isn't about punishing him for what he has done, it is about protecting our marriage on both sides.

I feel like he is 100% committed but I am a bit leery on relationship talks related to OW as I have ruined a bunch of those conversations by getting myself too worked up & accusing him of things. So I think I have to work on myself a bit more to be sure I am approaching it in a healthy way and that I am doing so for the right reasons (like you said, not for control). I think I will use the book His Needs, Her Needs to open up that conversation... he read a bit of it while we were on vacation & the need for feeling safe & secure is a big one for me. Also how the book talks about how letting someone else outside of the marriage receive intimate conversation takes away from what you could be putting into your spouse's love bank. This is a big reason why we should not be having members of the opposite sex as close friends or someone we share intimate details of our life with... it takes away from the marriage & creates the potential for affair. But how to say all this without lecturing or going on & on is what I need to figure out!

[Clairee]

That was hard for me to find the words for a long time. What I finally said was that whenever you're having these conversations, no matter how benign they may be, you are taking energy away from us. That every minute, word or thought you're giving to another woman, you are taking away from me & whether you realize it or not or interpret it this way or not, I feel you are putting them on the same level as me & I don't feel another woman should be on my level with you or another man on your level with me. You are well above anyone else in my life past, present or future & no one would ever be your equal.

[hopeOK]

Very well said. I hope I can muster enough calm to say it as well. But it is exactly what I want to get across.

[Clairee]

Patience, calm, rational...all the reasons why I wrote it many, many times & practiced saying it many, many times before I sat down with him. I knew what I wanted to say. It was finding the right words, said with just the right amount of emotion & without sounding like his mother or a controlling shrew that was the challenge.

You can do it. When the time is right for you, you will find the words you need to say that he will understand. It's all baby steps. I come from a dancing background, so I looked at my sitch in the same way I learned a new dance. I didn't learn it all at once. First I watched the dance. Then I learned the music, then I learned 1 part, I practiced that part. Then I learned another & practiced, then another & so on. Then I put it all together & without hesitation, uncertainty, with confidence & clarity, I danced.

[hopeOK]

Yeah, I will try that. I will write it out and work it out. Then practice.

How did you decide he was ready to hear what you had to say?

Do you ever have thoughts/worries about him having another affair but taking it further underground? Like only communicating while at work or on work landline or work computer? Or really covering his tracks? Clearly I have a lot more work to do on trusting... but these are thoughts that sometimes come up for me. I know that he will do what he will do... I have no control over that. But I just don't want to have something go under my radar for a long time and then be bulldozed by it.

[Clairee]

i decided when it felt right. When I felt we had stabilized things enough & when I felt I was in control of my words, emotions & actions. There is nothing I can really point to & say he did this or that's happened so now is the time. It was just a feeling I had & I went with it.

Sure I have thoughts like that. I got smacked in the head twice in a matter of months about 2 OW. It's natural to have those thoughts. What I don't do is let them control me or change who I have become. I don't let them become an insecurity that eats at me. When those thoughts happen, I talk to H about them. I am honest & open about what I'm feeling, what I was thinking & how it impacts me. I keep the focus on me & my feelings, not on him or his actions. That allows me to control my words & gives him the opportunity to validate & reassure. I was really open from the beginning of our mending that there were going to be times I needed reassurance. That it could be days, weeks, months or years ahead & I might still need his reassurances. He understands that & knows it's not necessarily because he's done something, but that what he did was traumatic & devastating to me, that his choices destroyed all trust I had for him & that restoring it will take a very long time of him being consistent & accepting that flashbacks will happen, feelings will come back & pain will emerge at times. He also understands it's not a reflection of where we are, but of where we were & how destructive it was.

[hopeOK]

Ok. Well I hope I will know the time when it comes.

Yes, that is a good point. They do have the potential to take over so that is important. We are in such a peculiar place... when we were going through counseling, we were encouraged to talk to each other & I was encouraged to share my feelings/fears. I did that (sometimes in the wrong way but a lot of times in the right way) & he did a good job of reassuring me most times. But then we fell of the tracks, I really messed up & hurt him & the communication about that has gone. Mostly because while we were so distant (& seriously looking at divorce) I had a couple blow ups about my insecurities of him & the OW & it really caused us to go further apart. So now I've just zipped it. I couldn't trust myself to bring it to him in the right way & so I stopped. Now for me, it is like the elephant in the room. We are doing good on so many other fronts but we just no longer talk about the affair. I sometimes wonder if he thinks I am all better about it. I am sure he is relieved I don't hang it over his head all the time like I was doing before... which I don't want to do again but there are a few things that do need to be said about it. Ugh. So complicated.

[Clairee]

It is all very complicated. I had those moments too when I beat him over the head about it & it pushed us farther apart. Counseling helped a lot. I know you've said he wouldn't consider counseling again because of what happened already, but I would at least get some IC for you. You have a lot of anxiety & I think you would benefit greatly from IC. It would help you sort through your feelings & find the way to approach all these things you need to say in a constructive way. When I looked for my IC, I was very clear what I wanted out of the counseling. I wanted a pro-marriage counselor to help me find forgiveness, to work through my anger & anxieties & who could help me learn how to approach all the questions I had for H & how to talk about what I needed to talk about without alienating him or making him feel punished. I saw her every week for 10 months. It was the most personally beneficial thing I've done.

Things are quiet around here this week. I finally have a week not filled with appointments. The weather has been horrible, it's been raining & everything is flooded. So GAL activities have been few & far between. We have 4 storm systems surrounding us & it doesn't look like this is going to let up anytime soon. So I'm indoors until further notice, unless I build a canoe...lol

[hopeOK]

It is all very complicated. I had those moments too when I beat him over the head about it & it pushed us farther apart. Counseling helped a lot. I know you've said he wouldn't consider counseling again because of what happened already, but I would at least get some IC for you. You have a lot of anxiety & I think you would benefit greatly from IC. It would help you sort through your feelings & find the way to approach all these things you need to say in a constructive way. When I looked for my IC, I was very clear what I wanted out of the counseling. I wanted a pro-marriage counselor to help me find forgiveness, to work through my anger & anxieties & who could help me learn how to approach all the questions I had for H & how to talk about what I needed to talk about without alienating him or making him feel punished. I saw her every week for 10 months. It was the most personally beneficial thing I've done.

I've been doing IC since middle of June. It has helped a ton with me being able to stop confronting him on my suspicions (which are all assumptions). But now I think I am going in the total opposite direction of avoidance. I want to say something but am afraid of backsliding like in the past. But from where I've come from, I am doing so much better (but so is the marriage... so not sure if it is the situation that changed or if I really worked on my anxiety)... I was a huge mess for quite a while. Now, I just have my thoughts that drive me crazy. Before it was crazy heart rate, tight chest, etc. A real true panic attack! So glad to have that gone.

[Clairee]

Haven't been here in a while. Things are still going good with H. We have learned to communicate with each other in a way we both understand and that's helped tremendously. I still have moments of fear, doubt and anxiety, but they are not as frequent and pass quickly. We just celebrated our 18th anniversary last week. Neither of us had a lot of time to get away, so instead we spent one night in a hotel downtown with the most amazing view. We are both getting better with the love languages. We still struggle at times, but it's definitely better. H is still completely open and transparent. And working hard at earning my trust and proving it everyday. Things aren't all uniforms and rainbows, but the storm clouds moved on and we are just focused on one day at a time.

As for me, I'm still working through my trust issues and insecurities about H. My GAL is roller coaster-ish. Some weeks I'm crazy busy and others crazy bored. Things are starting to pick up with the new non-profit I was helping form. We have our first fundraiser this weekend, so that'll keep me on my toes. School starts next month and H leaves for Cali mid-month for 7 weeks. That makes me nervous, so I'm trying not to think about it much. His leaving brings up all my fears of going through this again. But H has been very vocal about it never happening again and really supportive of my need for reassurance in those moments. Him being 2500 miles away forces me into a trust situation, maybe that's good. Maybe that's what I need to take the leap fully. I know I can't control him or his actions. I can't prevent an A from happening if he makes that choice. All I can do is control me, continue to work on me and grow and show him through my actions he'd be a blooming fool to lose me.

I haven't had a chance to catch up with everyone's sitch, so I have a lot of reading to do. You've all been so supportive and helpful to me through this and I pray each and every one of you gets the outcome best for you, your family, health and happiness. You are all special people, fighters & survivors. Blessings to you all.

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Lost & Confused 2

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