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Hello All,

I am new to DB and have been following some of the other topics. I am currently reading DR and receiving DB coaching sessions. Hoping to get some advice and support from veterans as I am confused on how to proceed and becoming ever increasingly frustrated with my potentially WAH and I am starting to give up hope.

A brief overview of my situation….
We have been M for 12 1/2 years and together for 14. Our M took back seat to many other priorities, which has resulted in lack of intimacy and connection and we turned into two “I’s” instead of “we”. Other than the first couple of years it has not been the greatest. Neither of us took effort to try and resolve R issues since neither of us knew what to do to get the other to re-engage. We both dealt with things by avoiding and withdrawing,

Last year was the worst of it due to one of us unemployed and the other going through major challenges at work. H just started new job in January, so there is a great deal of stress on him. The R came to head 4 weeks ago after fight and hurtful things being said by me. Was my wake-up that I wanted to try and save marriage, but my H is saying he thinks it is too late and he is not sure we can make our M work. That being said, he is still here, on no timeline to decide, and is still engaged to a degree. He is greatly holding back due to fear and the unknown.

I of course like many others started by doing things we are not supposed to do – pleading, suggesting MC, being nice, etc. He has already been mourning the loss of M and does not have a lot of feelings one way or the other at this stage – so he says, but I can tell otherwise. H is leaning towards D, but says he needs space to work through emotions and feelings, as this is major cross roads for us and he wants to make sure he is making right decision. I also believe there is a bit of a MCL going on. I think he is stuck as far as life direct goes (outside of work), is extremely unhappy and lonely, and is also having regrets about not having children.

After listen to some pod casts which I highly recommend for staying positive, and reading DR, I started working on myself and finding my happiness again, LRT and GAL. At first it seemed to be working and he started to soften. When he started to re-engage, I let up too much and he has pulled back in a major way. Hard though because my H's main issues with me were that I was withdrawn, unaffectionate, sex. etc. so this feels opposite of what I should be doing. Since we are also still living in the house, which I know is a blessing, it makes detaching harder as well.

The new discovery from this past weekend is that there is/was OW. I confronted him about whether there was an affair after my intuition kicked in, too many things not jiving, and finding other evidence that led to that conclusion. The A that started last October when he was unemployed. Quite frankly some of his actions right now are becoming quite cruel, which I know has to be from hurt, anger and fear. I just can’t even believe that he would do these things. We have only had initial conversation and not sure how to proceed as far as dealing the A goes. After the discussion on Saturday, he said it was nice to finally have open and honest conversation about marriage, but then pulled back even more. This weekend I told him he was free to leave if that is what he wants, but he said he is still not sure and is not on timeline to decide.

Just needing some direction on how to proceed, so any advice and tips are appreciated.

Last edited by Cadet; 05/09/15 02:49 PM. Reason: edit as per user request

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Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.


Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
(http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2534754&page=1).

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


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Getting confused by H behavior that is all over the board. Went two weeks with him very disconnected. Coming home late, going out with colleagues, not engage in conversation, going to room and shut door. I have been GAL and detaching. I think H is taking notice. After I made it clear that I was moving on with some household things things without him - arranging for lawn care, asked if I should stop buying groceries for two because he is doing his own thing, he seemed to take a bit of a 180.

Has started to re-engage in conversation with me, we decided to go to family wedding together in June in NY (asked if he wanted me to go and his response was if you want to go then you should go. Did not really answer my question which was do you want me to go), asking me about my day, etc. At same time, he is still saying very negative things about marriage. Why waste more time together, you are just going to go back to old ways, why do you want to rebuild marriage, etc. Makes it sound like all my fault. He also says he cannot see being physical with me due to trauma from feeling rejected by no sex and what that did to him emotionally. Does not want any physical contact right now. Is actually repulsed by idea and not sure how he can go from that to feeling attraction again.

He then in next sentence says he is confused. Part of him thinks marriage is over, but then he has interaction with me that causes pause. I ask about specifics about what he sees in that moment and he cannot answer. He says he knows he can be hard to live with. Then mentions that he knows he is putting me through roller coaster and maybe better that he moves out temporarily. I say that is not what I want and will cause further disconnect. I later say that I and glad his is still in house and he says thank you. He has also been around the house more. Yesterday, I wrote apology letter for my part in marriage issues with encouragement from DB coach. Told him no expectation to respond. He brought it up first thing this morning and said, "You did not need to write that. I think that you think this is all your fault." I aid no, that I was just apologizing for what I did and felt I needed to say those things to you. 180 for me as one of my issues is not being open with feelings and thoughts. He said, that is ok, I don't want to fight about it. Was no where near fight! Also has mentioned doing things in future together.

I am wondering if these are signs he is moving towards reconciliation. Very confused by his behavior!


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Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.


As far as him being confused I think that early on after they drop the bomb the most confusion exists, this is part of their script.

Unfortunately also part of the script is
things will get worse before they get better.

Keep journaling and learning.

Last edited by Cadet; 04/28/15 06:22 PM.

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Thank you, Cadet.

Good advice. He does not know about DR/DB coaching. Though he does know I am going to IC/coaching. I have told him it is to work on me so I can be better spouse either him or next person depending what happens moving forward with our marriage.

So, I am just supposed to wait for him to bring up conversations about the R? How will I know when it is ok to start being more engaged/pursuing on my end? I assume I am to wait until he takes more initiative than me. though when I pull back to much he seems to get irritated and thinks I am in a bad mood even though I am smiling and pleasant. Just not sure to know when the tide has changed.


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Originally Posted By: BW05
Just not sure to know when the tide has changed.

As a wild guess when the calendar turns over at least a few times,
but seriously when consistent actions match their words.


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Originally Posted By: BW05


So, I am just supposed to wait for him to bring up conversations about the R? How will I know when it is ok to start being more engaged/pursuing on my end? I assume I am to wait until he takes more initiative than me.



That is correct. Men like to pursue, so use that to your advantage. We tend to value most (all humans do, actually) that which is somewhat difficult to obtain. I know it seems counter-intuitive, but it's a core part of DBing. It's really nothing more than basic "push-pull" human dynamics between men and women.

Did you really reject him sexually during the marriage, or is he just re-writing marital history?

Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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Thanks, Starsky.

Our sex life started out great, at least for the first few years. But as H's schooling went on and we stopped putting marriage first, there was lack of desire on my part due to lack of emotional connection and intimacy. So no he is not really re-writting history, but my lack of desire was also not intentional.

H believes the desire was not there because I did not love him, which is not the case. H also is saying now that it was not important to me, also not the case. His way of dealing with it was to just ask for more sex, which did not help, but he believes that was a valid attempt to solve problem. So in that sense he is re-writing history.

H just withdrew instead of helping figure out the problem with me. It is only since reading books since D day did I understand why I might have lacked desire. I even went to the doctor back when this first started because I actually thought it was a medical issue, but the doctor was no help.

BW


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Need some advice. Had conversation with H about refraining from any further affairs - physical or emotional, while we are figuring out what to do with marriage. I said it would not be fair to me or marriage if he clouds mind with affair.

H said he is not actively seeking this but could not guarantee that it won't happen. I think I should go back and clarify my boundaries about this in a more direct way - i.e. I will not stay in marriage if he continually decides to bring third person into it since he would not be emotionally open to me or our marriage and in essence making his decision.

Thoughts? Is it best to state this sorts of things face to face, text email?


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Also, he says he felt no guilt when he had affair and feels no remorse because his needs were not being met. Just trying to figure out how best to address affair.


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Hi BW.

You have to detach. Why am I saying that? Telling you to do something that may drive him away?

Anyone who has an A, and is without remorse, there can be no reconciliation. This remorse has to develop over time and the first step...

Detach. GAL. 180.

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I know I need to detach, but it is so hard when we live together (he is in separate bedroom).

Even with all that is going on we have some meals and walks together with conversations about what we have going on at work, etc.

Do I detach from that as well?


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Yes. Complete detachment.

I know how you feel. I live under the same roof as my W who is still in an active and open affair.

You are not alone.

But... tell us first how you plan on "Detaching".

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Thanks TenBook,

Complete attachment is hard, especially when H is trying to still maintain friendship. Wants to go out and act single, but then wants my support when he needs it. I keep getting brought back into the cycle.

As far as detaching goes, I am going to lovingly pull back from my still pursuing behavior that is making my H think I will always be there. I did that this morning and he asked if I was pissed out. I said no, just tired. I then made sure to act a little more cheerful, but then eat my breakfast outside instead of at table with H.

He has said he does not want any physical contact and even hugs are hard for him now. He initiated hug before he left this morning.

Any suggestions from your end on detaching while still living together?


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BW, I'm sorry you're here, sorry you're in pain.

What I am going to tell you may be pretty extreme. I can't speak for all men here. And some people might throw stones at me and say that I am the one with problems. But either way, I want you to know I understand EXACTLY how your H feels. Let me start with this one fact:

*MY WAW'S INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND MY SEXUAL NEEDS WAS WHY I FELT I COULDN'T BE MARRIED TO HER.*

I don't know how I could have made it more clear to her. I told her that while she would never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever how important sex from her was to me, it was so important that if she would at least TRY it would mean so much to me. It was almost all I wanted. NOT just having sex...but for her to try to learn more about how much it meant to me, why, make me feel safe for having my needs, teaming up with me to meet them and strategizing on resisting temptation.

I couldn't reach her. I tried explaining it was like feeding the dogs. The dogs need to be fed every day. You don't stop feeding them because you don't feel like it, you've had a long day, etc. I told her I was devastated, IN ABOUT AS MUCH PAIN AS RIGHT AFTER BD, when she for whatever reasons rejected and neglected me.

Now, in the beginning I tried finding ways to reattract her, reason with her, beg/plead. I tried to see an IC. I turned to porn more and more to try to minimize my dependence on her. I tried to drown myself into hobbies so I didn't have time to feel the pain in my heart. Finally, I tried being controlling to get what I wanted, forcing her.

I cannot blame any of this on her. It was truly terrible behavior that I will stop forever.

But I will say that I would never want to be with a woman that didn't acknowledge that men are different than women, and that sex works really differently for men, which means even when they don't understand why it's impacting us the way it does, they they are dealing with powerful forces they don't understand, so as part of the M they will be on a lifelong quest to bridge that mysterious gap and maintain that as the priority level it is.

So why now I am posting this to you? This isn't some wise thread where I'm perfectly balanced and have this well thought out. This is just me STILL feeling the need to be understood, and hoping that it gives you a clue as to his point of view.


"Our sex life started out great, at least for the first few years..." You realize to him he felt awesome because he actually thought YOU UNDERSTOOD how important sex was to him and that you LOVED him enough to make him a priority. This also PROVES to him in his mind that YOU KNOW WHAT HE NEEDS BECAUSE YOU GAVE IT TO HIM!!!

"there was lack of desire on my part...no he is not really re-writting history" You will never understood how much you have hurt him. There is no emotional pain that I can compare it to.

"H believes the desire was not there because I did not love him" For you to "lack the desire" to attend to a deep emotional need of his that without leads him to feel devastated beyond expression...after you showed him (in his mind) that you showed him early on that you understood what he needed and knew how to get it to him...how else would he interpret this?

"His way of dealing with it was to just ask for more sex, which did not help" HIS WAY OF DEALING WITH IT WAS TO LEAVE BECAUSE HE COULDN'T TAKE ANYMORE. My goodness. He asked for more sex because his heart was bleeding and he felt like his life way being destroyed being stuck in a M with a woman that was starving him of the nourishment he needed to be whole. The ONLY need he couldn't take care of himself or get somewhere else. The ONLY need that important to him. And while he's bleeding, you're doing your own thing because you're not feeling it, maybe reading the occasional magazine article about it, but pretty much convinced that it is HIS fault for not making you FEEL more like being close to him, and HIS problem that it's importance is so overinflated. After all, it's not that big of a deal to YOU, so he must have problems. Maybe because the way his mommy treated him...better talk to your girlfriends and diagnose him while he falls into depression and withdraws into a shell of a man.




Back to the here and now. This seems pretty harsh, one sided, or unfair. I am not here to justify all the reasons you felt your lack of desire, nor to hear all the bad things your H did to you as time went on. I am here quite simply to give you a snapshot of how your H likely feels. Don't like this point of view? Then let your husband go and have a chance to find someone that will love him as a verb, not just as a feeling.

But maybe you can rethink how you look at this aspect of your R. My guess is that if you could somehow change this part of you there would not only be no D, there would be a happy lifelong M with a devoted H.


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Zeus,

I totally get what you are saying. I guess I have a hard time with the fact that my H never truly expressed to my how much he was hurting, but I think I see your point. I should have realized on my own. I am 100% willing to work on this part of me. I am not sure how to get this across to my H. I want that physical intimacy to be a part of our M moving forward. It one of the things I am trying to better understand about myself.

Do you have suggestions on how to communicate this to my H in ways that will resonate with him or are you saying from you perspective it is a little too late?


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Zues,

I just read your sitch. It actually sounds a lot like mine, but reverse roles. Very early in our M, I found porn on the computer. This devastated me. I did not understand why my H would need this other than I was not satisfying him sexually. I also did not understand the attraction as I am not like the women in those videos. So in my mind, i did not understand why my husband was attracted to me. It made me feel very inadequate from the beginning and was sure he would decide he did not want to me with me. I made the mistake of burying this hurt and never telling H. I just built up walls around me. I told him this story for the first time last weekend.

BW


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Thanks for the replies BW. Yes, men/women feel very differently on these subjects. Neither is "right or wrong". But unless both sides let go of right and wrong, tries to validate that the other point of view is "true" to them, and then commits to working together to bridge that gap and be sensitive...well, it just won't work naturally.

I don't believe it's too late. I am late for work...but I will post more later.


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I practice detachment everyday. I've been doing it for a month now.

My strategy is one day at a time. Some days are bad. Some days are good. But not speaking and interacting helps with detaching.

You have to determine how much you are willing to put up with. Is he going out? Do you suspect an active A?

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Thanks, TenBook.

Yes, he is going out with work colleagues. Says it helps him will feeling happy and gives space to see if he misses me. He is not acting himself though. Acting like he is 30 year old intead of 41. Working out kick, tanning, etc. Stays out unti late with no communication/engagement for two days and then expects me to engage when he is willing/ his terms.

Says A ended earlier this year and nothing currently going on. says he has no reason to lie to me now as hour marriage has hit rock bottom. He says he is not Looking for that right now. Do I believe him, no sure.

I am not willing to be his backup plan or treated cruelty, which is what he is doing.


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I am doing this while I should be working, so I hope you know this I am taking this seriously and do care about your sitch...First- please read my post to Smothy on her thread, page 4, 6:01AM. The card game. Then read the rest of my post...I'll wait for you smile

***********************************************************

When you say "I am not willing to be his backup plan or treated cruelty, which is what he is doing" I agree to a point. You need to have boundaries, and if he treats you poorly you need to respond in a way that respects yourself.

What you want to do, however, is have COMPASSION for him, understand he is reacting to tremendous pain in his heart that he feels was caused by the way YOU treated HIM.

In fact, his actions are his way of saying HE is not willing to be treated cruelly, which is what YOU were doing.

So go easy on the "not being a back up plan" and "not being treated cruelly" thing. You're 100% correct to take some actions to protect yourself and enforce your boundaries, but please be very careful about doing it out of necessity to care for yourself and stand up for your spiritual beliefs, and NOT to try to control or punish his behavior. Not an easy balance, and I'm sorry if I didn't explain it well.

As for whether you can show your H you can change, and if it's too late...yes you can show him, no it is not too late.

First tip, drop the porn thing. BUT ONLY FOR NOW. See, now is not the time to bring up your grievances in the M. It's not that you don't have the right to your feelings, and that they aren't valid, and that if you were going to R you'd have some things to work through and changes you'd need to see as well...but now is NOT the right time. My DB coach said "not voicing any of my needs and validating everything my WAW says and bending over backwards is not going to be the long term model for our future M if we R...but it is the model for this moment. That will change when WAW is truly ready to recommit to the M and do some real work. At that point we can start voicing my needs as well. But right now I have to carry the full weight of the R". So bringing up porn, etc...

I know you are trying to show him that you had REASONS for doing what you did, and trying to get him to see that he was accountable for a LOT of the problems, because you are convinced that if he understood you were a good loving woman and his behavior was responsible for some of the breakdown, then maybe he'd be open to trying...but he doesn't hear that. What he hears is that you're excusing neglecting him for years, and it just proves to him that you think it's ok to have treated you that way. In his mind this is proof that he can't trust you to meet his needs. Again, like not feeding a dog, and then telling it that "I know I didn't feed you, but you were digging in the back yard, that hurt me and made me not want to feed you". For a dog that was starving (and could think and talk LOL) it would tough to feel safe coming back if you think that not feeding it was ever ok, excusable, or debatable.

So drop all of your issues with him for now. And understand that his behavior is at it's worse in large part because of the pain in his heart from your behavior. HE IS STILL RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS ACTIONS, AND YOU STILL NEED GOOD BOUNDARIES...just don't judge him too much right now, and really focus on you.

OK- so that's what not to do...how do you demonstrate your willingness to change? Quite simply, by changing. Actually, doing the above is quite a big step in the right direction.

See, if you can even understand 30% of how important this aspect of the M was to him, and can find compassion for his pain, his behavior, and can focus on yourself only as opposed to his role in all of this...THAT BY ITSELF MAY BE ENOUGH.

You don't even have to tell him. If you can truly reach that point it will come out non-verbally through your body language, your reactions, your behavior. All of that follows your belief. Little things, like when he does something that is nasty and you don't react hurt because you have compassion...that proves you've changed. When he talks about how hurt he was and you can validate him sincerely and talk about how you wish you could have done things differently because you've spent a lot of time learning from men in sex starved marriages how undermined, disrespected, unappreciated they feel, and how you wish you'd made that a #1 priority and been more adventurous and passionate while you had the chance...wow, that would spin his eyes around in his socket.

But none of that will come across if you don't get there first. I feel you are trying to see how important is was to him, and focus on your role. Keep going down this path. It is much, much, much more important that you think, and you are still reeling from your own pain from his behavior.

So as a follow up I would suggest reading posts from men the "sex starved marriage" section, or google searching "why do men need sex" online. DAILY. I would spend 30 minutes daily learning how it feels to men. Seriously. That and really working on compassion and forgiveness for the pain he's caused and is still causing.

If you can do that HE WILL BE ABLE TO TELL. And as a man that was on the verge of walking away for YEARS for this very reason, I can tell you that if my W had done that I would've been the happiest guy on the planet. Instead we went YEARS at a time without sex, and we went through 3-6 month periods where we didn't even SPEAK because we were both so hurt it was too painful to even interact. Yeah, pretty big difference around one issue.

Hope this helps, keep going!


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Hi Zues,

Thanks for responding while at work, but don't want you to get in trouble. Last any of us need in this sitch is career issues on top of marriage issues. frown

You have given me some excellent advice, so thank you. It is helpful that there is someone on here with a similar perspective to what my H is going through. The card analogy is brilliant!

I will work on showing and truly feeling compassion and empathy for my H. I think I did that through the apology letter I wrote for him. His response to letter was that I did not need to do that and he thinks I think I am entirely to blame for our sitch. Maybe at this stage letter too needy, but DB coach encouraged it. think I am getting there.

What I am having trouble with is balancing detaching with showing compassion. I keep hearing others say I need to completely detach. Ok, I get that, but not sure how much I should respond when he then starts to pursue/initiate. If I don't respond enough/wait for him for to initiate he thinks I am angry. I am also going to seem withdrawn. If I respond too much, then I feel I am condoning his withdrawal/no contact and not protecting myself and my feelings. Where is the balance and how do I respond? How do I set these boundaries? Just in my actions or verbally as well? I feel like any of that can come off as being needy. This is the part I am having the hardest part with.

Thanks again for providing your insight!
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OK, just got an email from MWD's DB email campaign saying she has a Youtube video on "the sex starved marriage". An H that just couldn't get through to his W sent her this video and I guess it turned things around. Your homework for tonight, hunt that video down and watch it. I'll do the same. smile

Back to your questions...again, you have to sort out what's a boundary, vs what's a reaction.

So if he is sleeping with another woman. That would be a boundary issue.
If he is calling you profane names. Boundary.
If he is lying to you about finances. Boundary.

Those would require immediate action. Not vindictive or punitive. But adjustments to protect yourself.

However, if when he doesn't text/email you it hurts your feelings and you don't like it, so you think he's being mean...
If him saying he doesn't know what he wants makes you shaky so you think you shouldn't let him treat you this way...
If he's not telling you where he's going and you feel mistrustful and feel the need to express you're not ok with that...

Those are your feelings. They are valid and real, but this isn't the time for them to run your ship. Right now you need to acknowledge them to yourself so you don't go crazy, but then you need to transcend that and act according to your HIGHER LEVEL beliefs, such as you believe in standing by your M.

PS- the stuff about him not blaming you for your failed M isn't necessarily correct. He may just feel you are "incompatible". He won't blame you because he might believe it wasn't within your control, that's just "how you are". So it's not your fault, it's just you'll obviously never be the kind of woman who he can be safe with because you're wired so differently it just couldn't work. That's how he might be viewing that.

Remember, don't try to talk him out of that with words. Do it with actually changing. I'm not joking about the homework! smile


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Zues,

Ok, will do my homework.

PS- the stuff about him not blaming you for your failed M isn't necessarily correct. He may just feel you are "incompatible". He won't blame you because he might believe it wasn't within your control, that's just "how you are". So it's not your fault, it's just you'll obviously never be the kind of woman who he can be safe with because you're

Up to this point, my H has been putting all blame on me due to my personality. Has not admitted to any issues until recently, but does not necessarily recognize or verbalize those issues. So yes, exactly as you indicated, he thinks we should possibly end marriage due to incompatibility. My silver lining, unless he is just stalling, is that he is conflicted on whether divorce or making marriage work is right answer. He wants to make sure he is making right decision. I have the gift of time.

Can't wait to watch the video.


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And already a step towards becoming the W only a fool would leave. Taking time to try to understand his point of view, accepting that it is valid even if it seems so different, respecting him even when you don't feel good about the sitch, that is something only a dream W does. Keep it up!

Last edited by Zues126; 04/30/15 08:41 PM.

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Watched video. All I can say is WOW. The couple she mentioned is totally my H and I. I honestly never realized that I have been making my H feel that way for so many years. My H does not believe me when I tell him my lack of desire never meant that I did not love him, he was unattractive, or undesirable. Now, I can certainly empathize why he feels that way. Truly was only thinking about me. Makes me very sad.

tried to link video but it won't work.


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Great advice Zues. BW, this is a long journey and Zues brings alot of perspective on personal growth which is central to the DB experience.

I'm however becoming part of the jilted camp. I'll watch your sitch and hope that you don't go down the path of behaviors I have had to implement.

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I just watched the video too. Funny you mentioned it was eye opening. To me, I felt it didn't even scratch the surface. She talked about the pain of rejection. Think about the pain we feel at BD. How every time you get an email you secretly hope it's the one saying they realized they made a mistake. How each day you wake up and remember that your M is over. That each night you wish there was something you could do to reconnect.

That's how I felt for YEARS in my R. Every day. Eventually I withdrew, played pool, worked, paid the bills. It undermined me to the core. I was disconnected from my children. I thought for years about ending my life. I kept thinking about the love I had for my W, but I couldn't share it because I felt perpetually rejected, and misunderstood. I felt like she couldn't love me because she didn't even know who I was because she didn't understand to the right magnitude of 100 how important it was to me...or she did understand in which case she just didn't care. Again, it hurt so much I just avoided her altogether. We probably had 3 YEARS IN WHICH WE DIDN'T SPEAK. And those who know me on this board know me (hopefully) to be a very sensitive and loving person.

Was this WAW's fault. That's NOT what I'm saying. As the video states, I have a job to do as well. I didn't do my job. I did hurtful things to try to control or force her at times. I withdrew to protect myself, but also to punish or to try to "wake her up" to the pain I was in. To make the situation as much a priority to her as it was to me. I used pornography. And I wasn't there for her. So that was my contribution to our M downfall. I'm honestly not here pointing the finger at my STBX. I can't expect her to live to a standard of marriage I couldn't keep myself. FURTHERMORE, I recognize that she felt JUST AS MUCH pain from my reactions as I EVER did during these years, which is why she finally threw in the towel. So I totally get why she left me.

But since you're here I'll tell you that while I can't blame my behavior on her, it was more than I was able to deal with at that point in my life. And I failed. I didn't have an affair, I didn't walk away from my M. And though I was a bad H I actually felt like a SAINT for still being there, providing for my family, when I felt like I was being tortured every day. And the fact is that had she somehow been able to be a better W than I was an H, we might've made it through.

For me, all I really wanted was two things:
1. Careful with rejection. I understand that we can't ML every time I want. But if she knew how deeply it wounded me when I was rejected coldly, instead maybe she could use the following formula: "Honey, I love you. I can't ML right now, but not because I don't love you, it's because ABC factors. However, I know exactly how important this is to you, and if it's important to you, it's important to me. How about tomorrow you come home from work for lunch and I make it up to you?"
2. Follow through. Flirt a bit, send a few exotic texts, and make it up to me tomorrow at lunch.

If she did those two things I could've lived off relatively little actual sex, simply because I would've felt understood and cared for. Of course, sometimes I'd like a little binge with some excitement and adventure, but if that was worked in occasionally I would be just fine with even a strained sex life.

The biggest point is if she would acknowledge how I was feeling and make it more of a priority. So just a few dirty jokes, or some flirting, to let me know that she was aware of how much I needed her, how much pain I was in without her, and then taking care of me when circumstance dictated she could.

OK. This is probably the most I've ever posted on how I felt about it, and what I was longing for. So again, I'm not pointing at STBX. I tore up my scorecard. I've forgiven her for being no better at M than I was. And I have my own problems to contend with.

This was more to try to determine how I'd like my future R to look, and to really build on how significant it was in my M. Oh, and after years of feeling misunderstood it's nice to just spit this out. I'll admit, this is therapeutic for me.

The good news is I'm in a point where I feel like I could do much, much better if I went through a similar challenge in my next M. But to be fair, at some point I don't know that I'd ever feel like I was happily M if my partner couldn't meet me some of the way as well.

Thanks for listening and for being openminded. Keep reflecting on this daily. HE WILL NOTICE wink


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Have to confess that I have only quickly scanned your above posts but I jumped over to this thread after reading some stuff on JellyB's thread. This was was a big issue in our R too and I hope we may all learn something through talking about it.

A few of disclaimers:
1. I'm a woman with what I suspect is a normal sex drive (probably above normal based on what I read), but I was the "low desire spouse" in our relationship
2. I have a PhD (totally unrelated to the subject matter...but I get the pressures there and experienced my own little MLC just after finishing)
3. I'm far from saving my M...but I have learned a lot though this debacle

So....the thing I have come to understand through all of this is that men and women are different and no one benefits by making the other person feel like there is something wrong with them when they don't want sex.

Zues I hear you - my H evidently felt the same. We had some painful conversations where he told me he felt that way. At the time all I could do (like you BW) was say you shouldn't feel that way - I love you, I'm attracted to you, I'm not deliberately withholding from you, it's just that my body doesn't work like yours and I don't feel like it right now. I didn't validate his feelings and I acknowledge that now and feel very sad about it. But I was honest about my feelings and he didn't validate those either. In fact, H labelled me as the low desire spouse so much so that he couldn't see that - like him - I actually genuinely wanted more sex. We were totally stuck in this dynamic. His watching porn did not help (not that I was particularly against it, but that he evidently turned to it instead of me).

Here's what I want to convey - there is something not quite motivating enough about the message that women should "just do it" (tomorrow at lunch say). I just don't think it works that way. If it did, all I would be doing is letting you use my body. That doesn't make me feel so great. Would it make you feel great as the man knowing that was what I was doing? Or would you rather I actually be really into you when we ML? A lot of the sex books seem to push the "just do it" message. Like we should "just do it" and if we can't then there is something medically wrong with us. Well that idea doesn't make my juices flow either...

BW05 - if this is an area you want to work on then I recommend you check out the books by David Schnarch. He presents a different message - that there is a "high desire spouse" and "low desire spouse" on every issue in a relationship. The low desire spouse controls the outcome - be that having sex, having kids, etc. Like even now - the WAS is the low desire spouse - they are controlling the outcome, yes? The low desire partner has a choice - dig in their heals and commit to their way of things or they accept their partners way of things and learn not to feel resentment. Somehow by seeing this as the natural balance of things I feel more able to take on the sex issue as a matter of my own integrity. It doesn't evoke the usual "there is something wrong with me" mentality (cos that doesn't make me feel particularly sexy), rather "I can grow and deal with this" mentality. I only wish I had discovered these books before BD.

Zues - same for you. Check out Schnarch. Maybe there are other areas where you were the low-desire spouse and failed to move yourself forward in a way that made it easier for your wife to connect with you? Maybe that's why she couldn't have sex more frequently with you?


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Hi Gan,

My experience is that men with low drive masturbate often. You might want to check if he is into pornography.

I've learned that porn is an addiction like alcohol. It is used to self medicate.

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Gan, thanks for offering some of you insight. I have to agree with you. Yes, did I deny my H a primary need, sure. But he also denied me my primary need of intimacy and emotional connection. I need these in order to feel turned on my my H. Unlike him, I can not just turn on that part of me without it feeling forced. I have learned since BD that my H decided early on in our M to withdraw and avoid what he was feeling. Just saying sex is important to you does not tell the whole story. Had my H said that it made him feel lonely, undesireable, etc. I would probably have taken it more seriously. My love languages are affirmation and quality time together, so it never really occurred to me he was getting so much denied emotionally due to lack of sex. My H thinks he is the better communicator in our M, which is true, but I have learned that he what he thinks is open communication is not. Unlike you Zues, I don't think my H let me know what I was denying him. So wish I would have been wise enough to look into ways to save my marriage years ago when the issues first arose. My H has said same. I guess we are both avoiders.

I have learned that there is a big communication issue in our R, which is not surprising for anyone with serious marriage issues. Another issue that has come up is the fact that I have denied him children. During our M and his schooling, we had multiple conversations about whether to add that pressure to a Masters and then PhD program. We mutually agreed that it was not realistic with me being the primary income and the pressures we were already facing. Now I am hearing that I knew it was important to him and I have denied him that. Can't even express how hurtful it is to hear this.

Listen, I have no room to talk because I have not been fully open either. I am just realizing a great deal of our issues all stem from lack of open and honest communication. I feel that can be fixed. My H, does not. It all because of my personality.


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On a positive note to start the weekend, I have noticed that I am feeling better and better since deciding to let go and detach. The biggest thing has been learning to detach from my feelings and letting go of a timeline for all of this. Still have not detached fully as that has not be recommendation of DB coach. Because my H and I have underlying friendship still there, she wants be to use that to my advantage. Even in last ar talk, my H and I agreed we are still each other's best friends. Also, a big part of my H issues are my lack of engagement/conversation, so I guess this is part 180? I will have discussion with her on Monday about my continued conflicts with detaching and 180.

The other things that has really been helpful is GAL, DB forum, and working out. I did gain over 45 lbs during the last 10 years. I have taken of that off in the past 2 months. Hard to feel very sexy when you are not feeling great about your body. Felt great during my 6am bootcamp this morning. Had multiple people notice the changes and mentioned how great I am looking. Definitely a big boost for my confidence, which took a dive after BD. Baby steps!

Not much to report with H, other than we did chat for about 30 mins last night about our days. I noticed how tired he is looking. Still sense a lot of hostility on his part.


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H actually came home not so late, but acted standoffish. Still I acted very pleasant and did not let it bother me. Swear that he is acting that way in response to my detaching --kind of tit for tat. Not sure if that is normal response when you start to detach.

I was proud of myself though. I had gone out to eat earlier by myself (something I got comfortable with from my work travel) in the eve and let him fend for himself. Let him start conversation and asked about his day. I happily engaged for a little and then walked off to my room. He seemed more interested in getting something done for work. Continues to use work to avoid working on our R.


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Originally Posted By: gan

Here's what I want to convey - there is something not quite motivating enough about the message that women should "just do it" (tomorrow at lunch say). I just don't think it works that way. If it did, all I would be doing is letting you use my body. That doesn't make me feel so great. Would it make you feel great as the man knowing that was what I was doing? Or would you rather I actually be really into you when we ML? A lot of the sex books seem to push the "just do it" message. Like we should "just do it" and if we can't then there is something medically wrong with us. Well that idea doesn't make my juices flow either.

Zues - same for you. Check out Schnarch. Maybe there are other areas where you were the low-desire spouse and failed to move yourself forward in a way that made it easier for your wife to connect with you? Maybe that's why she couldn't have sex more frequently with you?


Thank you for the reply Gan. Let me first acknowledge that this is an extremely emotionally charged issue. This is an issue that played the primary role in the destruction of my family, perhaps yours, and certainly millions of other couples. Just reading your post evoked a strong reaction in me that compelled me to sit on it for a while, not because you were wrong, but because it flashed me back to how I felt during my M for years. Likewise, I recognize this may be a equally sensitive subject. I appreciate you replying and discussing this, but given how raw this is for me at least I'll try to step a little lightly.

I DO need to make a bigger point of understanding how the low desire spouse feels. I will admit that though I've thought about it, my feelings were so strong it was easy to just dismiss the outlook you described as "wrong" in the past because it was so awful to me. As a result, I failed to do my part to bridge the gap and see if there was a way through. As you mentioned, there are MANY things I could have done much better to get different results, and in no way am I pointing all the blame on my STBX, or on you in your R. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to be the low drive partner, to feel used, cheapened, disrespected, coerced, manipulated, abused, and even violated. No, I will admit. I didn't see past my own feelings in the R. They felt so powerful I just felt that my partner must be in the wrong.

I learned an interesting point of view about M...BOTH PARTNERS MUST MEET THE OTHER PERSON 100% OF THE WAY. The idea is that if both people want to meet 50% of the way there it will never work, because both people will view that 50% so differently and it won't be enough. Only when both give 100% can they actually bridge the gap.

Similarly, I feel that sex is a funny subject. It's not really a "Need" in the sense of food or water. But it's not really a "want" to the high desire spouse like a new car or a vacation to Hawaii.

For a high drive spouse to consider it a "need" is dangerous, as it can lead to entitlement, and all of the destructive behavior above, much of which I exhibited. Taken to the extreme, the idea that the low desire spouse should submit to the high desire spouse 100% of the time, any time he/she was turned on or horny...well, that wouldn't be possible, and the low desire spouse would quickly feel like a glorified blow up doll, emotionally trodden on, used, cheapened, and hurt beyond belief.

I also think that for a low desire spouse to NOT consider it a "need" is very dangerous as well. Just as I have admitted that I don't understand the other side of the coin, I feel that low desire spouses ******SEVERELY UNDERESTIMATE******* how much it IS a need to the high desire spouse. I would guess it's underestimated by a factor of 10. The LDS is not even in the right ballpark with the damage it causes.

So to me the question about "would you want sex if your partner felt you were simply letting me use their body" looks as alien as asking "would you want me to feed my hungry baby when I'm not in the mood and feel like I'm simply being a servant?"

The answer for me is "yes", because although I feel loved when my partner wants to meet my needs, I also feel loved when my partner CHOOSES to meet my needs even when they don't always feel like it. It says 'I love you' to put my needs in front of your mood. At least some of the time. It doesn't have to feel arousing or appealing, but it will keep the high desire spouse from feeling so awful they feel their only shot at happiness in life is to leave the M or seek fulfillment outside of it.

I'll back it off a bit and say again that the answer isn't that the LDS spouse becomes completely subservient, stuffs their own feelings perpetually, and becomes the one that feels traumatized all day. The point is that NEITHER spouse should feel that way, and both parties need to understand that no matter how strongly they feel their point of view on this issue is right, BOTH points of view are right, and somehow through love, communication, compromise, and both sacrificing more than they ever thought they could...maybe it's possible.

I don't have the answers. These are just my thoughts. I am sending you a big hug and sincerely thanking you for voicing your feelings respectfully. I feel there is a lot we could learn from each other and I am looking forward to becoming a better person from this discussion.

Vets, I'd love to hear from you. Particularly Starsky...I understand you've been through a love starved marriage. Could someone page Starsky?


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Zues - I see you've posted on my thread as well. I'll reply to the above over there. You and I are a bit further along in this than BW and so I don't want her to feel like we've hijacked her thread with this massive topic. Really keen to keep exploring it with you (and others) though...

BW05 - I remember being where you are now (H doing his own thing, sleeping in spare bedroom etc). If I could have a do over I would have ramped up my own GAL during this time - going out more, coming home late, wearing new things, looking good, smelling great etc. Without kids it really can become tricky if H moves out. Really encourage you to focus on you and work some mystery into your life right now. The other issues (working on the sex and porn issues etc come later if/when H indicates he wants to reconnect). In the meantime I certainly encourage you to read the Schnarch books and develop a different perspective on the issues above.


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Thanks Gan! Agreed! BW- you're doing great. Gan's right, you're so near BD, every day you can go without punching him in the stomach, throwing your ring at him, and telling him to go get an STD is a win! Keep going!


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BW

Please attach to your feelings, recognise them even the awkward ones about H. Depending on the categorisation there are six primary states or feelings, sadnesst, trust, joy, surprise, anger and fear. If you google Plutchek there are eight add contempt and anticipation. plutchek model shows that other emotions are a mix of these.

My own personal philosophy is to think of this as a giant DJ mixing table with sliders up and down and on/off switches for each glider. All of us have a natural preset. Lets take anger as an example, assume we are at peace, just waking from rest, all the switches are off. Suddenly we feel angry as a memory arises, all the switches are off and anger comes in. It switches on at the preset level.

If the preset for a certain emotion (the slider is almost full up) is high, we flood with the emotion. Wait two minutes and it will slide to a lower level. Then we can consciously slide our slider controls on raisethe level or lower it. We have no control over the preset., but we can manage the preset. This gives us a 'choice' in the level we feel of the emotion after the first two minutes. Some individuals have lower presets. They just may not feel at high levels bothositive or negative others of us have high presets with swings or moods. We learn as adults to manage these.

Joy and Trust together give us love for example. love is a result of having joy and trust.

For each emotion there is a result. The result of anticipation joy and trust in a particular measure result in lust or sexual desire. That is what we mean by control over these. In my view sex is neither a need nor a want but a result, an action. By adding anticipation to our mix we can increase the result. The desire. Some individuals require touch to trigger anticipation, so once they begin to relax and flow into sex the lust responses kick in. Hence the 'just do it' attitude. Once they start its ok but until that point sex is a chore or a requirement for their R.

I felt it was important for me to understand body chemistry and states. If I looked further then I discovered that the electronics in my mixer board had bio chemical components so with the switch comes a chemical reaction in my body. Some bio chemicals and hormones, (for example adrenalin perhaps triggers anger etc) are in certain standard combinations or presets and result in standard responses, flight, fight or freeze body reactions. we can not control these, some refer to these as limbic or lizard reactions. So something in the environment triggers the on/off presets resulting in body State (feelings) followed by reactions.

Your feelings are yours, please embrace them.

Detach from your spouses actions not your own feelings.

For those who struggle, who tell themselves, I have low desire then know that is likely a result of low anticipation. increase the thoughts of those aspects of sex that are enjoyed (even if this is pleasure of your spouse) this will increase the anticipation. Then just do it, the body needs sex, it keeps one young, puts a spring in the step.

I used to confuse that my H did not want sex with low desire. It wasn't or isn't low desire , my H is using sex or lack of it as control. H says 'no' then he feels he has the control and power. Now H wanted sex but V has said 'no way, not if you are cahasing POW'. I don't have low desire for sex, just no desire for H.

This is the way I understand., hope it helps you as a starter.

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 05/02/15 07:42 AM.

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So V - do I take from your post above that you were the high(er)-desire spouse? (happy for you to bring it over to my thread so not to hijack here...)


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Thanks for words of encouragement.

Hard not to start getting angry and resentful during DB. Those are the feeling I am having today. I have been trying to avoid those negative thoughts and live in place of love because anger and resentment are a big part of why our marriage crumbled. But it is easy to start to feel like you are married to a narcissist where everything revolves around THEIR needs and how terrible the marriage has been for THEM.Like our marriage issues have only affect H? The only person H seems to have any regard for now is himself. Then there is the whole decision of whether to work on the marriage, which also bring left up to the unilateral decision of H.

It also did not help reading old cards H had given at beginning. How life has so many uncertainties, but he knows that we can over come and of life's ups and downs and will always be committed. Maybe he really didn't know what that meant.

Just had to share these thoughts in this forum versus projecting on H right now. Not sure how long I can do this.


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BW-

You're feelings are right. I'm glad you're talking about it here. It is good to vent, and to learn where your feelings are coming from. What concerns me is when you start questioning whether you can keep DBing.

If you are going to save your M you will have to stick to a plan for a period of time even when you don't feel like it. I agree with everything you say. I don't think a spouse should destroy a M because of how they feel. Those feelings can change if you two worked together to change your M. However, look in the mirror and tell yourself the same thing. You don't feel like you want to keep standing for your M. Well, if you give up on the M because you don't feel like putting up with these feelings anymore, how is that any different than what he did?

My motto has always been to act with the character I wished my STBX had. Someone has to step up and be a leader. He's not going to do it. Either step up to the plate or agree with him that it's cool to walk because he didn't feel up to it and you're there with him.

Again, not putting words into your mouth as you haven't quit. Just sharing with you my point of view that's helped me remain committed to DBing.


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Thanks for pep talk. Not giving up on DB. Two of my traits are stubbornnes and persistence, so those are coming in handy theses days. Just working through a billion emotions.

H was super moody and agitated yesterday morning, so I just ignored it but stayed pleasant. I took off to go to IC and get my hair done, which both gave me a confidence boost and came home with that attitude!

I was surprised that he stayed around the house all day. He actually did work on the yard. He likes doing that sort of stuff, but has not showed any interest in our home for over 5 weeks other than to eat and sleep. When I came home he asked how IC was ( I had not told him that was were I was going).

Needed new battery for my car. He offered to go deal with it for me, so I let him. I cooked dinner and we ate together when he got back. I know this is not detaching/180 but seemed the right thing to wait since he took my car to get fixed. Dinner turned into wonderful, light and airy conversation that lasted over two hours. We actually both laughed and smiled multiple times and he seemed to be enjoying himself. Talked about wedding we are going to in NY and does not seem anxious about it at all. Almost swore he was almost a bit flirty and teasing about some things. Detach, Detach, Detach. He did manage to through in some small comments to get me riled up. Some how we got on the topic that we gave booth been watching TED Talks. His science related. He then said your probably watching relationship stuff and laughed. I am turned away and ignored it, but was thinking our sitch is a joke to you? He is trying to act like it is not bothering him. More aviodance.

Still, overall the conversation was good though. The only thing he said about my hair was that it looked lighter, so that was disappointing. He is avoiding giving me any sort of compliment other than thank you right now.

If all goes accordingly, he will pull back and be standoffish today. Usually happens after we make any sort of connection. Will leave it up to him to initiate any communication today.


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Gan: yes, I have really ramped up GAL and attractiveness for myself. I know that H has noticed. I am just not good with coming home really late and need to work on being more mysterious.will check out the book you mentioned.


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BW

DB is exactly that, it is for you, to help you to grow and change. To become the best you can be, someone only a fool would leave.

Sweetheart it sounds like you are doing really well. So the 180 would be good, go dance the night away and then you wont notice the time.

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Originally Posted By: BW05
I have been trying to avoid those negative thoughts and live in place of love because anger and resentment are a big part of why our marriage crumbled.


You might want to check out Labug's threads. Hers were an inspiration to me when I started this journey - precisely because she set the goal early on of not ending up bitter and angry over all of this. She reconciled with her H after a couple of years even though things looked very dire.


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As expected, My H pulled back yesterday. He seemed fine in the morning. Sought me out in the morning on the patio to have breakfast. I could see more softness/vulnerability in his face. He decided to go work in the office as he is still feeling very stressed and overwhelmed by new job.

When H came home, I was already eating dinner, and I could be wrong, but almost sensed he was disappointed that I did not wait for him. I felt it was important for me to pull back and detach a little. I figure if he wants to have dinner as a couple that it should be up to him to communicate that after having been disengaged and erratic in behavior. He took the dog for a walk and them came home and ate. I was reading on sofa and chatted for a bit, but then ended convo to go take hot bath before bed. During this time he seemed to get more withdrawn and moody. When I came out of bathroom, H had gone into his room and shut door. Did not even bother to say goodnight. It is amazing, but I am sure not surprising, that we can go from have a great conversation and bit of connection the night before, to him being back to withdraw.

Some questions for vets.... I am assuming this is how this is meant to progress for now? Is it the connection that we have had making him withdraw again? Is it bad for me to pull back after we have had a good interaction?

The good news is that because I have detach emotionally his behavior did not really make me upset. I was expecting it to happen!

Last edited by BW05; 05/04/15 02:19 PM.

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Also, I should mention that I started reading MWD's Sex Starved Marriage. I certainly see my M in this book and why we have as many issues as we do. Again, I had no idea that sex had so much more meaning to my H and what he must have been feeling do to lack of physical intimacy. This book as really resonated with me.

No wonder I see so much hurt, anger and resentment from H. It certainly makes me sad and regretful that I did not learn this sooner. I think it would have made me try harder to figure out desire issues. It could have made a big difference in our M. Just not sure how to express this specific realization to H. just concerned that it is too late for him to accept. I know that I just need to work on me and my changes, but not sure how this is translated non-verbally to H.


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BW- I just wrote a book on Gan's thread on this topic. I've never been an author before. Check it out.

As for your H...I've got no words that will help. I don't really believe in measurable progress. I feel like the journey is so long and hard that if you are looking for progress you won't make it. I'd say keep your eyes on you. Also see the post I made on Bob's thread, about how detachment comes from restructuring how you meet your needs. It was a moment of clarity that I wish I understood a while ago.

By the way, do you have a DB coach?


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Yes, have 4th meeting with coach today. Going to ask some clarifying Qs as her advice seems to be contradictory to the advice I am getting through Forum.

Yes, trying to let go of timeline, signs of progress would help me keep going. I guess I need to let go of that now too. Still have issue with just wanting it fixed.

Today is my birthday, so interested to see what if anything H does. I have no expectations/plan on him not doing anything other than saying happy birthday. I have plans to hang out with a bunch of girlfriends tonight, so that is good.

Question...I have made it clear to H that I don't plan on any affairs/new relationships unless we get to the place of divorce. Was this the wrong thing to say? I feel it takes a little of the mystery out of who I am with and what I am doing. But that is what I committed to when I married H.


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Hey BW05

We seem to have a similar story. My WAS told me he had lost the lack of intimacy and sex for me basically month after your H told you he wanted a divorce. The difference in my story is that it was my H who was distant and I who would like to engage more. I knew we had issues but I had hoped we could work it through.

Like you I am finding detachment hard. My H is living downstairs and we have two Ds. Hang in there..


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Received an enthusiastic happy birthday from H when I walked in from bootcamp. No card or presents as of yet and not expecting. He was rather chatty this morning, asked my opinion about shirt he was wearing, and gave me hug goodbye before work. I reciprocated but pulled away first. My think he sensed this.

He said I will see you later tonight if you are around that is. Interesting that he is coming home and not going out. 6th night in a row. He has pulled way back from staying out late compared to weeks prior. Anyway, I said no, I have made other plans and did not elaborate. I think he was surprised. No way I was going too wait around and end up at home alone on birthday.


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EMO1234,

Yes, our stories sound very similar. I was still receiving affection-kisses, hugs, I love you up until we had our blow out on March 13. I could tell our relationship was getting worse and he was pulling further away. Out of fear and hurt, I said that I think we should get divorced and I hated living in our house with him. I think I wanted to be the first to say it, but also I did not really mean it. I wanted a divorce from the state of our marriage, not my H.

Sex and intimacy has been off for a many years, but there was still some engagement, companionship, friendship, moments of tenderness and support all throughout our M. I had no idea that H was so unhappy and having A. He said he would cry on drive up to school and home. Never told me any of this. I said that I would have expected some sort of ultimatum or communication that he needed our M to change or he would have to leave. Said it was not right for him to say something like that to me?? How I am I to know then how bad it was for him? I was in pretty bad depression/state most of last year due to ending an 11 year relationship with my career due to merger. One of the worst years of my M. I can honestly tell you I remember very little of last year. H said he made effort to try and rekindle last year, but I don't think I would have ever have seen it in my state. Given all that I have supported him through with school for over 12 years and considering the year I had last year, I am extremely hurt and feel used that he is considering not trying to really attempt fix our M. We honestly have never tried, so I am do fearful of regret for both of us. we have never given a fair chance to flourish. If he was willing last year, why not now. It was not that long ago. It keeps coming back to my saying D word. Plus, he has A which probably makes he feel what he could have outside of me, even if it is not reality.

What is interesting is that my H was having A since October, but all he is focusing on is that I said that I want D. Blames me for A and talks so negatively about M. Does not believe me when I tell him that D is not what I want and that it came out from a place of hurt and fear.

That being said, GAL and working on me makes me realize what a fool he would be to walk away. All of our issues are totally fixable. He also would not be where he is without having meet and married me. He would have never have gotten PhD. For that I get nothing and that makes me so angry.


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Just came home from birthday celebration and found birthday present on bed and birthday card from H. Card did not say much, but was signed Love H. I am actually quite pleasantly surprised. I had made myself not have expectation for anything. Said thank you and was nice, but did not over do it on enthusiasm. Chatted for a bit as he was in room with door open and light on reading, but I kept it short and went to my room and closed door.

Thoughts on my response?


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Also, 6th night in row H home at normal time without going out with work colleagues.

Last edited by BW05; 05/06/15 04:37 AM.

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BW05

Your story totally resonates with me. Like you I was receiving hugs, affectionate kisses, emails and texts with I love you through out our M and basically up until when he told me he couldn't rekindle the passion. Like you I supported my H through university for his teaching degree. How sad is it that our Hs couldn't talk to us about their unhappiness. My H told me he's been trying to find his passion for quite a while and like your H mine has also cried countless nights. Like you, there were positive elements in our M like companionship, friendship,shared happiness with our two Ds and we share similar interests, elements I thought would get us through this sitch but it wasn't enough. Last year, my H experienced extreme work stress along with our M issues. The work stress has continued this year. I was waiting for my H to open up to continue discussing our M and I was getting frustrated. He finally opened up to say he wanted out.

I too am feeling hurtful that my H is throwing away 14 years of M, our family of 4 and does not want to fix it. My H and I tried a few sessions of marriage counselling last year but didn't continue, I wish we had as I don't want to feel any regrets like yourself that I didn't give it all to save my M.

Doing a lot of GAL activities with my Ds, friends and family (and I think H has noticed) its what's keeping me distracted from the emptiness I currently feel.

Keep posting hopefully we can support each other to get through this.


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Had good convo with DB coach and think I am heading down the right path. Detach, GAL, LRT, but not overly so. If H tries to engage, then engage as a friend would. If there's is a good connection, then stay cool and calm so H does not get the feeling I am overly excited about the moment. DB coach thinks these good moments we are having is causing H to have confusion about D. There is clearly something keeping my H from going, at least right now.

Not seeing. Ton of initiatve, brut definitely a shift in behavior from last week.

One question I did not ask DB coach. I know that my H has lied about details of A. Should I just leave this for now and focus on A if we get to reconciliation? I think he has finally ended A as of last week.


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If you feel the need for details regarding the A, he will have to comply with that respectfully... but only after you two have agreed to piece your marriage back together.

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1000% agreed. With two disclaimers.

One, you're not in piecing if he brings up the possibility of R. You're in piecing when he is ready to COMMIT to doing 100% to rebuild- AND he is willing to back that up with committal action (letter of no contact, passwords on phones/email, etc.). So it might be a good idea to know what you'd need to be black and white about whether he met YOUR requirements for piecing. If you're too desperate to have requirements you will ENABLE his As and be responsible for the failure of your M. You must be strong!

Two, at that point the details of the affair may not be something you want to focus on. Listen...and we're in fairy land now, but if that comes to pass there is NOTHING he's going to say that will restore your trust or take away the pain. Something was destroyed that will never completely heal. It stinks. So digging digging digging to try to get answers, clarity, etc, that may drive you insane and destroy the chances of R. Yes, you have a right to have him be honest to a point if it helps with closure, but you also will have to be able to let it go.

Letting it go will be as hard as letting him go now. In a way this is practice for acceptance.

But right now talking about the A is futile. Yeah, he lied. Don't tell me that "It's one thing to have an A, but to LIE to me..." If he lies again and you know it tell him to stop, that you know he's lying, and you won't be disrespected that way. But other than actively shutting down a conversation in which he's lying I don't see any reason to focus on the A at all. It it pursuing, controlling, and not effective.

PS- be warned. Rebound relationships can come and go. My STBX told me a few times she broke it off with OM. One time she told me that at 2AM and was crying that she missed our M and was thinking of ending it all. I went over there because I was concerned about her...only to find OM sleeping in the bed. So there idea of 'breaking up' is sometimes nothing more than intent. Or a mood.

DETACH. GAL. LONG JOURNEY. PLEASE!!!


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Zues, thanks as always for your well thought out replies. All understood. Will drop the A for now unless I know he is lying.

I am actually doing great with detaching and GAL. I will admit it the time thing is hard. I do feel 100% in my heart and soul right now that it will be H's loss if he lets me go. If that is what he chooses, then he is clearly not as smart as I thought.


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Mixed feelings today. Had nice article/interview published online about me for work/job. Sad that I feel like I can't share it with one person I want to, but happy about my work success.


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My H does not seem like he is going to bother coming home tonight. Had business trip on Wednesday and was back in town on Thursday. Went straight to office, so I did not seen him at all yesterday. It is now 3am. Assume he is with OW?? I was pretty sure that A had not ended and this seems to likely reinforce this. Not sure where else he would be. He has never altogether not come home.

I feel like this is at a point that he is showing so much disrespect that I need to set some boundaries and or tell him he can no longer live here. There is only so much you can detach from.

Advice anyone?



Last edited by BW05; 05/08/15 08:46 AM.

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Just confirming my H never came home last night. Would really appreciate some advice on how to deal with this. Do I ignore or acknowledge?


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What kind of boundary do you want to set?
What are you going to do to enforce it?


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I agree putting a boundary on him and enforcing is probably not realistic. It just makes me feel like a doormat that he is showing so little regard for my feelings. I guess this is him trying to get a reaction out of me, so the best course is no reaction?


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Originally Posted By: BW05
I agree putting a boundary on him and enforcing is probably not realistic. It just makes me feel like a doormat that he is showing so little regard for my feelings. I guess this is him trying to get a reaction out of me, so the best course is no reaction?

Maybe but more likely he does not even think about YOU.
His focus is on him!
Think selfish teenager.

Yes no reaction is fine.

Are you providing for any of his needs?
Cooking, cleaning, laundry, money?


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Right, hard to forget that after 14 years of being married to someone the could totally forget/not think about you. Selfish is right.

Well, we live in the same house, so yes I am cleaning. All of the other stuff has stopped except for some cooking. But that is 100% stopping today. We have shared account and make about the same $.


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Originally Posted By: BW05
We have shared account and make about the same $.

Well keep an eye on that account for excessive spending.

You don't want to be enabling his drinking, or any possible affairs.


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BW05,
You came to visit over in the MLC forum, so I thought it best to cut and paste your posting on your thread here, in Newcomers:

"Wondering if anyone has advice on how to respond to MCLer still having affair when they said it was over? Also, H just didn't bother to come home last night. Assume with OW. Again, is there a recommended response?"

If your MLCer raises the topic again about the affair being over, then he should be more than willing to be transparent w/you about all of his activities, i.e., allowing you to check his/her phone for emails, texts, etc. This would also apply for the laptop/computer as well. The MLCer should be willing to share everything as to being late, where they are going and people they are meeting. Transparency is the key.

However, in your case, since he's been out all night, I would say he's not over her and the addiction to her is too great. Yes, he may have had an argument w/her or vice versa and they both thought it was over, but have made up. It takes them a long time to get through MLC and the affair is so addictive that they will go through withdrawal for a period of time before truly letting the affair die a natural death. Cadet is correct in stating that he most likely isn't even thinking about you...but about himself. They don't care about us and they say things that we want to hear. It's all about him and the mantra is "me, me, me". I'm sorry that he's still "out there", but he's definitely saying one thing and doing another.

If you attempt to put boundaries on him concerning the affair, it will push him even closer to the ow and like a teenager, will react opposite of what you would want to happen. The only person that you have control over is yourself.

If you aren't sure what to do at this time, do nothing. The affair has to die a slow, natural death. Yes, you would like the affair to end...but it will not end until one of them calls it quits. In the meantime, keep the focus on you and live your life to the fullest.


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Thanks, Job. So no questions at all about affair right now. Hard not reacting to this kind of behavior, especially considering I did not sleep at all last night. I guess I was concerned ignoring the A and behavior would be in a way condoning it with H.


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Originally Posted By: BW05
Thanks, Job. So no questions at all about affair right now. Hard not reacting to this kind of behavior, especially considering I did not sleep at all last night. I guess I was concerned ignoring the A and behavior would be in a way condoning it with H.

Sometimes doing NOTHING is really doing something.


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BW05,
The more you react to the affair, the more he's going to go to the ow. Your reactions are the justification he is seeking to continue it. I know you want to just shake him until his head rolls on the floor, but it's better to go on w/your life. You have to protect yourself and your finances at this time. Watch your accounts.

Sit quietly and the answers to your questions will fall in your lap when you least expect them to.


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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One more question. I think H is going to expect that I will go to MIL/FIL for Mother's Day. I think he wants family to think all is ok. Should I go? I feel if I don't go then MIL suffers.


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That is up to you. If you have a good relationship w/them and you enjoy being around them, then go. If they should question you about the situation, you don't have to lie, be honest w/them. It's not your job to cover the affair up, if you are asked about it.


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They no nothing at this point. I should not go out of my way involve them, right?


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BW, I'm sorry you're in that spot. We see it here daily but As are so destructive it blows me away that people go down that road. I know they tell themselves the "R is over" like that changes what they're doing. OK. Breathing deep.

I understand how you feel, like doing nothing is being a doormat and letting him cake eat. So let me explain different kinds of "doing nothing".

If you are doing nothing about the A, crying in bed, sobbing on your girlfriends' shoulders, trying to pursue/beg/plead, allowing him to cake eat by being there for physical and emotional support when he feels like throwing a few scraps your way, spending your days trying to read his mind and allowing your mood to be controlled by how you read into his tone, or whether his watch is on, and overall putting your life on hold hoping he changes...that is a bad "doing nothing".

But if you are doing nothing about the A, but detaching, refusing to get involved with his drama, getting a life and rediscovering the parts of yourself that were neglected for so long, reconnecting with friends, learning to set appropriate boundaries not to control or punish but to protect yourself, and doing more and more to take control of your life with or without your H...that is a good "doing nothing".

Stop waiting and hoping he'll change. Go live your life with or without your WAH. You can do it. You're early in your sitch but it can absolutely be done.

Last edited by Zues126; 05/08/15 12:58 PM.

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BW05,
You do not involve them in your situation. You do not initiate conversations about what your h is doing or not doing at this time. If they ask you about it, be honest w/them...but don't initiate the conversation.

Zues126 has explained the "doing nothing" very well. Read, the posting and re-read it again. Bottom line, you can't do anything about the affair, you can't and don't control him. The more you try, the more he's going to run the other way. The best thing you can do is live your life to the fullest. Find things/hobbies and do them. Get out the newspaper and see if there are any good groups of people who walk, visit museums or book clubs...but YOU need to take back control over YOUR life. I know this sounds difficult for you...but you do have a life and had a life long before you met your h. This is a great opportunity to rediscover yourself and do the things that you've not had time to do.

Any changes that you make, make them for YOU. The changes have to become permanent and are not being done to entice your h back to you.

You can do this. None of us wanted to be on this journey, but we have learned to live our lives and can and will find happiness again with or without our spouses.


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I can do this. I felt as though I was doing so well until last night. Was just so unexpected and I let it affect me more than I should have allowed. I just have to work harder on myself. I mistakenly took his bait to think he was making small changes.

Life does go on with or without him.

Job and Zues, how long did it take you to get to the right space with yourself?


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It's not a linear progression. So the set back from last night feels discouraging, but you're not 'back at square one'.

Months 1-3 I made some progress, then was drawn back in when she started talking about this being a mistake, missing our M, me showing positive changes, etc...this lead to far and away the craziest 24 hours in my life. It was 9/5/15 if you feel like checking it out. On a detachment/attachment scale of 1-10 I started at a 9-10, ended at a 7-8, then jumped back to 10 for a moment.

Month 4-5. Much more detached, but still actively trying to think of what I could do to 'save' my M. Giving a lot of thought to how she perceived me, what she was doing, etc. Maybe I was a 6-7.

Now I am finishing month 10, and I'd say my level of attachment is around a 3-4. I still think of her daily (or at least the idea of her flashes through my brain in various contexts), I occasionally have a quick imaginary conversation with her, sometimes when we communicate about the kids I still feel a bit of distaste for the situation, and it's hard not to question things as we work on divorce paperwork. Oh, and as I learn more about myself I do reflect and think back to where I went wrong, how things played out. But overall I'd say I'm below the pain threshhold 95% of the time, and now it's just something I'm aware of.

I think as the D finalizes over the next 3-6 months, and then another 6-24 months goes by, I will be truly beyond the M. Like I said recently...like looking at pictures of a high school year book. A distant memory. I will be a different person, the memories of what I went through will be there but won't be tender, and I will be ready to start becoming a great H to someone. I know the idea of another two years would be scary to some, but remember years 2-3 are NOT like year 1. They are exciting, empowering, and feel like a total relief after a terrible M and a nightmarish BD.


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Zues,

Thanks for the timeline. Even though I know it is probably very unique to each person on here, it is nice to get an idea of what you went through.

Happy to hear you are getting to the other side!

Barbara


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Can any of the vets recommend any DBers whose situations are/where similar to mine that I can go and read their posts?


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Hi, BW

I can't give you any guidance, just sympathy and commiseration. I think it's hard to predict how any one individual may respond to our behavior, and I guess it's important that we do what we do for ourselves and not in hope of eliciting a reaction from someone else... although that can seem completely impossible when they keep you on your toes with their flip-flopping!

I read in a book about one of her clients who had said: "On a good day, I'm committed to my spouse. On a so-so day, I'm committed to my marriage. On a bad day, I'm committed to my commitment." It very much expressed how I feel. Unfortunately, it seems I'm alone in feeling that way in this M...

I was reading your thread with great interest because our situations sound so very similar, at least when it comes to what the problems are and how both parties react, and your H's behavior. It sounds like we are in somewhat different phases right now, though. I will be following your thread and post more about my own situation in my own thread. I wish you the very best!

Last edited by Cadet; 05/09/15 08:45 AM. Reason: book reference not allowed

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Ugh, frustrated. Allowed H to draw me into an R conversation last night that got heated and that was totally unproductive. Just more of the same stuff that has already been said. Just lots of hurt and anger coming out on both sides. I should have STFU, but I could not stop myself. Part of it is because of having to put aside my needs and allowing resentment to build up. Anything recommendations on how to deal with aftermath of convo? Just ignore it and get back on the DB track. So worried I took huge step back last night.

The good news out of the convo is that H is seeing my changes, but not at a point to trust them yet. He even mentioned being happy sometimes to come home. The biggest hurdle is the fear he has of trusting me right now.

One if the things he did mention is that there are some days that I am not as engaged. These are days that I decided to pull back, LRT, and allow H to lead/initiate. He is seeing that as inconsistent. My response was that it was just based on my perception that he was not in mood to engage and I wanted to give him space Is there a better way I should have responded to this comment?

Please tell me having convos like this is not the end of the world. Need help on how to react/engage today to do damage control.


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I certainly can't say for sure, but the way I understand things is that this process is going to be continually going forward linearly. There will be steps forward and steps back. The key is what you LEARN from the interaction.

Figure out what is working and do it. Figure out what isn't working and stop doing it.

Sounds like you need to be more consistent in your techniques as it seems to be causing confusion. I think either disengage more or less to keep your actions consistent. Without consistency, it's hard to trust the actual changes.

You can do it!


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OK, I normally don't do verbatim pastes from email exchanges but this was from 6 months ago and I'm skeptical it will come up, nor do I truly even care at some point.

This is an email I sent after a heated conversation with my WAS. We had argued about children, money, and the divorce. I was really frustrated due to MONTHS of not speaking my mind, and her running me down with some crazy talk. When she started telling me that "me having the kids at my place overnight would be disruptive to their schedule" I remember replying that "DIVORCE was disruptive to their schedule yet she made that choice, she's not going to prevent me from spending time with my family". So yeah, pretty worked up.

What I did afterwards is send her an email with a recap of the points SHE had been trying to make. I wanted to let her know I had at least heard her, and re-frame the conversation as not such a negative.

Whether or not it was effective as damage control I don't know, but I felt better having sent it.


EMAIL

That was obviously a difficult conversation for both of us. We have never had the best communication and conflict resolution skills, this is a heck of a situation to try to work on them. Children, finances, legal process. Could it get much scarier? Although I regret allowing myself to get as emotional as I did, I do see it as a sign that things are going better that I still feel mutual goodwill has been preserved.

It couldn't have felt that I was even hearing what you said, so I want to let you know the points I remember you making:

********RECAP OF WHAT SHE WAS SAYING*******

If I left something out or misunderstood please let me know. I want to continue to do better as coparents than we did as a couple. Now that I've had a chance to paraphrase your words and look at them objectively I really agree with pretty much everything you're saying.


(PS I was able to say I agreed with everything because it was mostly vague...i.e. we should try to minimize the impact of the D on the kids...I agree with that! Doesn't mean I won't be spending my time with them, but I do agree with the idea...so I was able to paraphrase and agree with much of what she said.)

Last edited by Zues126; 05/09/15 02:05 PM.

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Thanks Matt and Zues,

Not as much damage control needed. I don't think. I verbally apologized this morning when he woke up and said I should not have engaged in conversation last night as it has been emotional week. That because of emotions running high that it caused me to say some stuff that was irrational and hurtful. Surprisingly, H actually engaged in conversation and asked questions and affirmed some of the stuff I said last night as valid points. We were both much softer and compassionate in our conversation today. These are some of the comments he made:

**H actually said that he has never stopped trying to work on our M and is still trying now but that it hard trying to figure out how to work through it all. H said that is why he is still here. H said he would have already left if he truly was done trying. I said this was nice to hear because I was under the impression he had all but given up.

**H basically said he wants to try and figure us out but he is afraid of trusting me and he knows I feel the same with him. I validated this and said I understand why you would be afraid to trust me with so much hurt and anger.

**He is afraid of taking risk to fully jump to reconciliation with no guarantees it will work. I validated this and said I felt the same, but that the only way forward is a bit of a gamble and leap of faith in each other.

**He also seemed to imply that he does not even know where to start to get to the other side of this but that he has an interest. I agreed that it is overwhelming and that neither of us are patient people and we need to be ok with the fact that this will take time and not happen quickly but if we worked together instead of as individuals that we could get there.

**H agreed or acknowledged that a great of what gets said by both of us is out of hurt and he knows it is hard on both of us and that we are both trying to work through the best we know how.

I know we are not supposed to be having R talks, but this is the most vulnerable and open that H and I have been in many, many years and I think we both feel good that some of what we have both been holding in is coming out. The fact that he is actually take time to reflect on our conversations and sharing his thoughts and feelings seems to be good thing. He is not as closed off as I thought.

Last edited by BW05; 05/09/15 05:05 PM.

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**He is afraid of taking risk to fully jump to reconciliation with no guarantees it will work. I validated this and said I felt the same, but that the only way forward is a bit of a gamble and leap of faith in each other.


The convo above sounds pretty good, but try to stick just to validation and pull back from the 'suggesting.' In the above example, I think it is best to stop at the black text. Or if you want to discuss the way forward, maybe ask the question - how do you think we can move forward?

With the orangetext, I think you may risk him not feeling heard. There was another example of this, where you're saying let's work on this together instead of as individuals.

Mostly looks like you did well with the validating, but I just thought I would point these out. It's helpful to catch yourself - Am I pushing my own agenda and wishes here? Am I truly listening to him or just trying to move things forward? Is this pressure? and so on.

Hope this is helpful, and good luck to you! T :-)


Last edited by Toots; 05/09/15 08:17 PM.

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Spent the entire day with H and it was really nice and normal. First we both took the dog for an hour long walk. Then we went to in-laws for Mother's Day. Have great hour long drive down. Then spent four hours chatting. Considering what we have going on behind scenes, from the outside you would never guess it based on our interactions today.

I did have sad moment of realization that depending on the outcome of all this, I may in the future not have a relationship with his family in the future. Makes me wonder if it ever cross H's mind that he would be loosing that as well with my family. H seems to think that we will stay close friends should we D.

I also had a realization that as spouses trying to save marriages on our own how vulnerable of a position we put ourselves in. Yes, detaching is somewhat a protection from this investment. It does make me proud that I am allowing myself to be this vulnerable.


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You should be proud! All of us who stay in a situation with high emotional uncertainty and risk with our hearts open, because we chose to honor our commitment and work on ourselves to become better people, should hold our heads up high and feel really good about ourselves! smile


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BW - really happy to see the progress in your situation. Your comments around vulnerability resonate with me. I worry that I walled myself off too much post BD. Keep on keeping on!


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Here, here Painter! Print that out and stick it in front of your eyes.


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Question to vets out there. Is it possible that your S has actually started to move on to trying to reconcile with out telling you? I don't want to get my hopes up, but I think I am starting to see signs that my H wants to try and work on M.

I just had odd conversation with H over our interaction yesterday. So at the in-laws H passed around his cell phone to show photos from work. His dad got to photo of woman in park and ask who it was and get weird look on his face. I of course asked to see photos and got to the photos of this woman. They did seem seem some what questionable in the way she was posing. I probably would not have questioned it in past if there had not been A. I obviously still have lots of thoughts around A as not all questions have been answered and there is obviously trust issues.

I did let the photos affect me yesterday, but I thought I had kept it check. However H did notice and even made comment about behavior when we stopped at a store on way home, but I just came up with an excuse and let it drop. We had had casual conversation about work and other stuff when we got home. I felt like I let my questions about this person subsided. He worked on a project and then went downstairs. I stayed in my room because I figured we had a lot of together time yesterday. I really did not think much of it.

When I got home from bootcamp this morning and the first I saw him today, he said are you done being weird? I tried to Brush it off, but he pushed to have conversation and actually delayed going to work. He then brought up the photos and knew that they were the result in the change in my behavior yesterday. He then asked if I was going to always question and not trust him and who he us with. Basically, he was asking when and if I would be able to fully trust him again. I said I wanted to trust him, but that he had to understand it would take time to fully recover. I said it was the same for him and trusting that my changes and things I am saying are true. I said. Can tell you want to trust me, but can't fully right now and he agreed. Anyway, it was like he was wanting to push for convo about affair??

He also made comments that he is working on our friendship as first step but that it is hard that it is still awkward. I just agreed and said yes, but that it is going to take time for things to go back to normal because a lot has been said and transpired over the last 6-7 weeks. I also said that I am having a hard time being fully open at this stage because I don't know what is thinking and I know he is holding back. I also said it is hard to know when he wants to engage, if he wants to keep engaging, and when he needs space. I said I thought we are both holding back and have walls around each of us and he agreed. He also brought up reconciliation and how to get to that stage when we are still at awkward stage. I said it was going to take us trying to spend more time together as friends and the more we do that the more comfortable we will be again. I said I am not on a timeline right now. Anyway, there was more, but it was a very calm and constructive conversation. He is opening up more with his feelings and thoughts and pushing to talk. I assume this is a good sign? Is how I am responding ok?ni feel as though I am getting an opening here and don't want to blow it.

Last edited by BW05; 05/11/15 02:37 PM.

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Oh, and he implied that I need/should be more open and vulnerable because what do I have to lose at this point.


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Toots, thanks for the feedback. I will take note.

Painter, I am glad you agree. You should be proud too!

Gan, the vulnerably has been more recent as my H started to open up more. A big concern for my H has been open and honest communication, not that he does this well either, so I guess it has been a bit of 180 for me.

Last edited by BW05; 05/11/15 02:44 PM.

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Originally Posted By: BW05
He then asked if I was going to always question and not trust him and who he us with. Basically, he was asking when and if I would be able to fully trust him again.


I don't understand the question or response here.

If I am getting this right:
-he has had an affair
-he hasn't recommitted to the M
-he hasn't apologized for his behavior nor given you any commitment not to do it again

This isn't about trust or forgiveness...he hasn't given you any reason to believe you should trust him.

There are two parts to trust. Him acting in ways that are appropriate, then you letting go of the past and allowing God to heal. He's asking for #2 before he does #1. Fire has to come before smoke.

Does he understand that? Do you?

You can't be so eager for R that you lose sight of this, because it can't work if you're so desperate to forgive that he doesn't even apologize.


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Ok, just to be clear, I am in no way ready to forgive as H has a great deal to do before that point. I am just asking if his behavior in pushing for conversations about R, opening up, and asking if I can trust him again is a sign that maybe he is starting to move in a positive direction. I will certainly need him to express remorse and really work on M. I am just trying to figure out hiw to engage with these conversations that is is pushing?


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I don't think it's that clear cut. He's very confused, and is all over the map. An affair is like an addiction, and he's bouncing around between desire to be healthy and desire for what he felt he was missing in the M that he was getting from OW.

The problem is he's not seeing this clearly. I think what he wants to do is remain uncommitted, have OW as a crutch potentially (or back up), and then see if the M can build into something that will satisfy all his needs. In his mind if you can forgive him, trust him, become a super W, win him back, and prove to you that the M will be fulfilling BEFORE he recommits.

Problem is that won't work for a number of reasons. One, if he has some deep seeded issues you can't fix those. Two, the presense of OW or even having that avenue available will sabatoge any efforts towards rebuilding because you will never be able to measure up to his impossible standards if he's holding on to his drug of choice and expecting you to match that high so he doesn't go through withdrawal. Three, you simply can't commit put more into the M than he is willing to, and it's delusional for him to expect that.

I'm not sure how you explain that to him, but Starsky and Sandi might be able to help. Starsky has some good talking points like "This experience has given me a better understanding of what you've gone through, and what was missing for you to be fulfilled in our M. If I could do it again I would definitely do some things very differently. If you were willing to recommit to the M you'd find me willing to address any and all issues that lead to it's breakdown, but it would take a commitment because there's simply no way to rebuild trust on a foundation that lacks any commitment or is vulnerable to outside parties. Looks like we both have some decisions to make..."

I'm combining a few, paraphrasing, and adding a bit of my own, but I think that's the general idea from here. If he wants to commit then you can discuss transparency plans, joint counceling, etc. If he's temperature checking, trying to cake eat, or keep you as a plan B (which looks like the case at this point) then you simply have to keep moving on your road and make it clear you're not available as a plan B or to audition for your own M.


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Zues, this is exactly what newbies like me need to hear. I think it is easy for vets and others that have been on here for a while to forget that some of on here are at the eariler stages of all of this and have no idea on how to proceed through this. We don't even know what we are feeling half the time let alone working on DB.

What I appeciate about your replies is that you acknowledge our newness to all of this and refrain from being condescending. I cannot say that about the replies I have seen being posted on other peoples topics.

This all makes sense to me. I can see that I probably need to have a conversation with H. Assuming he is now leading some R talk, it is good timing to do this?


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This was brilliant and I'm printing it out. smile I'm very much in the same situation with H.

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The amazing thing, BW, is Mozza wasn't always like that. What you're seeing is Mozza 2.0 - he's a real proof that change is possible. You are getting some great suggestions from him.

In terms of R talks, if he is leading them then I think it is ok to engage - especially since he is wanting you to be more open and vulnerable. But be prepared to say "can I get back to you on that, I need to think on it" and avoid getting into an argument. Don't let the reptile brain kick in!


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BW-

I agree with Gan, since he initiated it's ok to discuss at least in the immediate term (not ongoing).

Personally I might send him an email stating what I did above. KEEP IT SHORT then it might be ok. I might even throw in something sexy in there after "willing to do everything and anything to address the issues", such as hinting at the adventures that await him if he could handle it and maybe even allude to trying out some things he'd asked for in the past. WOW. That would be a BIG 180 and I know it would've been CRITICAL for me to hear.

That would give him the ability to "save face" if he changes his mind as you are making him a big concession- the promise of a better M and no punishing for his bad behavior. Doesn't mean you don't have boundaries or feelings to work through, but you can work through those safely as a team, not as enemies.

Then after that I'd become a bit busy, distant, and start GALing like crazy. Look super hot whenever possible and let him figure out what he wants to do.

That's my two cents, thoughts from a vet?


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BW05

You sound like you are doing great job, well done.


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Blah...I meant Zues not Mozza!!! Sorry Zues. Though having stepped in it already I should also say that Mozza has made some dramatic changes, too.


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Thanks Gan, I figured. It's funny, hearing that from someone that used to be "enemy camp" from the point of view I had in my M...it's truly uplifting, and gives me a lot of hope that if we can find this level of mutual goodwill and admiration- well, maybe M is possible. Especially when we can keep the communication strong because I can tell you it's been very valuable to me. Thanks for the help along the path!

PS- BW- start a new thread before Cadet puts the hammer down wink




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Wow Zeus I am so glad I came across this! I am sure my H feels the same way! I NEEDED to read that thanks!

New thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...302#Post2567302

Last edited by Cadet; 07/09/15 08:38 AM. Reason: Link

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