WAH with one foot out the door and one in.

[V2pt0]

Gan, thanks for offering some of you insight. I have to agree with you. Yes, did I deny my H a primary need, sure. But he also denied me my primary need of intimacy and emotional connection. I need these in order to feel turned on my my H. Unlike him, I can not just turn on that part of me without it feeling forced. I have learned since BD that my H decided early on in our M to withdraw and avoid what he was feeling. Just saying sex is important to you does not tell the whole story. Had my H said that it made him feel lonely, undesireable, etc. I would probably have taken it more seriously. My love languages are affirmation and quality time together, so it never really occurred to me he was getting so much denied emotionally due to lack of sex. My H thinks he is the better communicator in our M, which is true, but I have learned that he what he thinks is open communication is not. Unlike you Zues, I don't think my H let me know what I was denying him. So wish I would have been wise enough to look into ways to save my marriage years ago when the issues first arose. My H has said same. I guess we are both avoiders.

I have learned that there is a big communication issue in our R, which is not surprising for anyone with serious marriage issues. Another issue that has come up is the fact that I have denied him children. During our M and his schooling, we had multiple conversations about whether to add that pressure to a Masters and then PhD program. We mutually agreed that it was not realistic with me being the primary income and the pressures we were already facing. Now I am hearing that I knew it was important to him and I have denied him that. Can't even express how hurtful it is to hear this.

Listen, I have no room to talk because I have not been fully open either. I am just realizing a great deal of our issues all stem from lack of open and honest communication. I feel that can be fixed. My H, does not. It all because of my personality.

[V2pt0]

On a positive note to start the weekend, I have noticed that I am feeling better and better since deciding to let go and detach. The biggest thing has been learning to detach from my feelings and letting go of a timeline for all of this. Still have not detached fully as that has not be recommendation of DB coach. Because my H and I have underlying friendship still there, she wants be to use that to my advantage. Even in last ar talk, my H and I agreed we are still each other's best friends. Also, a big part of my H issues are my lack of engagement/conversation, so I guess this is part 180? I will have discussion with her on Monday about my continued conflicts with detaching and 180.

The other things that has really been helpful is GAL, DB forum, and working out. I did gain over 45 lbs during the last 10 years. I have taken of that off in the past 2 months. Hard to feel very sexy when you are not feeling great about your body. Felt great during my 6am bootcamp this morning. Had multiple people notice the changes and mentioned how great I am looking. Definitely a big boost for my confidence, which took a dive after BD. Baby steps!

Not much to report with H, other than we did chat for about 30 mins last night about our days. I noticed how tired he is looking. Still sense a lot of hostility on his part.

[V2pt0]

H actually came home not so late, but acted standoffish. Still I acted very pleasant and did not let it bother me. Swear that he is acting that way in response to my detaching --kind of tit for tat. Not sure if that is normal response when you start to detach.

I was proud of myself though. I had gone out to eat earlier by myself (something I got comfortable with from my work travel) in the eve and let him fend for himself. Let him start conversation and asked about his day. I happily engaged for a little and then walked off to my room. He seemed more interested in getting something done for work. Continues to use work to avoid working on our R.

[Zues126]

Here's what I want to convey - there is something not quite motivating enough about the message that women should "just do it" (tomorrow at lunch say). I just don't think it works that way. If it did, all I would be doing is letting you use my body. That doesn't make me feel so great. Would it make you feel great as the man knowing that was what I was doing? Or would you rather I actually be really into you when we ML? A lot of the sex books seem to push the "just do it" message. Like we should "just do it" and if we can't then there is something medically wrong with us. Well that idea doesn't make my juices flow either.

Zues - same for you. Check out Schnarch. Maybe there are other areas where you were the low-desire spouse and failed to move yourself forward in a way that made it easier for your wife to connect with you? Maybe that's why she couldn't have sex more frequently with you?

Thank you for the reply Gan. Let me first acknowledge that this is an extremely emotionally charged issue. This is an issue that played the primary role in the destruction of my family, perhaps yours, and certainly millions of other couples. Just reading your post evoked a strong reaction in me that compelled me to sit on it for a while, not because you were wrong, but because it flashed me back to how I felt during my M for years. Likewise, I recognize this may be a equally sensitive subject. I appreciate you replying and discussing this, but given how raw this is for me at least I'll try to step a little lightly.

I DO need to make a bigger point of understanding how the low desire spouse feels. I will admit that though I've thought about it, my feelings were so strong it was easy to just dismiss the outlook you described as "wrong" in the past because it was so awful to me. As a result, I failed to do my part to bridge the gap and see if there was a way through. As you mentioned, there are MANY things I could have done much better to get different results, and in no way am I pointing all the blame on my STBX, or on you in your R. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to be the low drive partner, to feel used, cheapened, disrespected, coerced, manipulated, abused, and even violated. No, I will admit. I didn't see past my own feelings in the R. They felt so powerful I just felt that my partner must be in the wrong.

I learned an interesting point of view about M...BOTH PARTNERS MUST MEET THE OTHER PERSON 100% OF THE WAY. The idea is that if both people want to meet 50% of the way there it will never work, because both people will view that 50% so differently and it won't be enough. Only when both give 100% can they actually bridge the gap.

Similarly, I feel that sex is a funny subject. It's not really a "Need" in the sense of food or water. But it's not really a "want" to the high desire spouse like a new car or a vacation to Hawaii.

For a high drive spouse to consider it a "need" is dangerous, as it can lead to entitlement, and all of the destructive behavior above, much of which I exhibited. Taken to the extreme, the idea that the low desire spouse should submit to the high desire spouse 100% of the time, any time he/she was turned on or horny...well, that wouldn't be possible, and the low desire spouse would quickly feel like a glorified blow up doll, emotionally trodden on, used, cheapened, and hurt beyond belief.

I also think that for a low desire spouse to NOT consider it a "need" is very dangerous as well. Just as I have admitted that I don't understand the other side of the coin, I feel that low desire spouses ******SEVERELY UNDERESTIMATE******* how much it IS a need to the high desire spouse. I would guess it's underestimated by a factor of 10. The LDS is not even in the right ballpark with the damage it causes.

So to me the question about "would you want sex if your partner felt you were simply letting me use their body" looks as alien as asking "would you want me to feed my hungry baby when I'm not in the mood and feel like I'm simply being a servant?"

The answer for me is "yes", because although I feel loved when my partner wants to meet my needs, I also feel loved when my partner CHOOSES to meet my needs even when they don't always feel like it. It says 'I love you' to put my needs in front of your mood. At least some of the time. It doesn't have to feel arousing or appealing, but it will keep the high desire spouse from feeling so awful they feel their only shot at happiness in life is to leave the M or seek fulfillment outside of it.

I'll back it off a bit and say again that the answer isn't that the LDS spouse becomes completely subservient, stuffs their own feelings perpetually, and becomes the one that feels traumatized all day. The point is that NEITHER spouse should feel that way, and both parties need to understand that no matter how strongly they feel their point of view on this issue is right, BOTH points of view are right, and somehow through love, communication, compromise, and both sacrificing more than they ever thought they could...maybe it's possible.

I don't have the answers. These are just my thoughts. I am sending you a big hug and sincerely thanking you for voicing your feelings respectfully. I feel there is a lot we could learn from each other and I am looking forward to becoming a better person from this discussion.

Vets, I'd love to hear from you. Particularly Starsky...I understand you've been through a love starved marriage. Could someone page Starsky?

[gan]

Zues - I see you've posted on my thread as well. I'll reply to the above over there. You and I are a bit further along in this than BW and so I don't want her to feel like we've hijacked her thread with this massive topic. Really keen to keep exploring it with you (and others) though...

BW05 - I remember being where you are now (H doing his own thing, sleeping in spare bedroom etc). If I could have a do over I would have ramped up my own GAL during this time - going out more, coming home late, wearing new things, looking good, smelling great etc. Without kids it really can become tricky if H moves out. Really encourage you to focus on you and work some mystery into your life right now. The other issues (working on the sex and porn issues etc come later if/when H indicates he wants to reconnect). In the meantime I certainly encourage you to read the Schnarch books and develop a different perspective on the issues above.

[Zues126]

Thanks Gan! Agreed! BW- you're doing great. Gan's right, you're so near BD, every day you can go without punching him in the stomach, throwing your ring at him, and telling him to go get an STD is a win! Keep going!

[Vanilla]

BW

Please attach to your feelings, recognise them even the awkward ones about H. Depending on the categorisation there are six primary states or feelings, sadnesst, trust, joy, surprise, anger and fear. If you google Plutchek there are eight add contempt and anticipation. plutchek model shows that other emotions are a mix of these.

My own personal philosophy is to think of this as a giant DJ mixing table with sliders up and down and on/off switches for each glider. All of us have a natural preset. Lets take anger as an example, assume we are at peace, just waking from rest, all the switches are off. Suddenly we feel angry as a memory arises, all the switches are off and anger comes in. It switches on at the preset level.

If the preset for a certain emotion (the slider is almost full up) is high, we flood with the emotion. Wait two minutes and it will slide to a lower level. Then we can consciously slide our slider controls on raisethe level or lower it. We have no control over the preset., but we can manage the preset. This gives us a 'choice' in the level we feel of the emotion after the first two minutes. Some individuals have lower presets. They just may not feel at high levels bothositive or negative others of us have high presets with swings or moods. We learn as adults to manage these.

Joy and Trust together give us love for example. love is a result of having joy and trust.

For each emotion there is a result. The result of anticipation joy and trust in a particular measure result in lust or sexual desire. That is what we mean by control over these. In my view sex is neither a need nor a want but a result, an action. By adding anticipation to our mix we can increase the result. The desire. Some individuals require touch to trigger anticipation, so once they begin to relax and flow into sex the lust responses kick in. Hence the 'just do it' attitude. Once they start its ok but until that point sex is a chore or a requirement for their R.

I felt it was important for me to understand body chemistry and states. If I looked further then I discovered that the electronics in my mixer board had bio chemical components so with the switch comes a chemical reaction in my body. Some bio chemicals and hormones, (for example adrenalin perhaps triggers anger etc) are in certain standard combinations or presets and result in standard responses, flight, fight or freeze body reactions. we can not control these, some refer to these as limbic or lizard reactions. So something in the environment triggers the on/off presets resulting in body State (feelings) followed by reactions.

Your feelings are yours, please embrace them.

Detach from your spouses actions not your own feelings.

For those who struggle, who tell themselves, I have low desire then know that is likely a result of low anticipation. increase the thoughts of those aspects of sex that are enjoyed (even if this is pleasure of your spouse) this will increase the anticipation. Then just do it, the body needs sex, it keeps one young, puts a spring in the step.

I used to confuse that my H did not want sex with low desire. It wasn't or isn't low desire , my H is using sex or lack of it as control. H says 'no' then he feels he has the control and power. Now H wanted sex but V has said 'no way, not if you are cahasing POW'. I don't have low desire for sex, just no desire for H.

This is the way I understand., hope it helps you as a starter.

V

[gan]

So V - do I take from your post above that you were the high(er)-desire spouse? (happy for you to bring it over to my thread so not to hijack here...)

[V2pt0]

Thanks for words of encouragement.

Hard not to start getting angry and resentful during DB. Those are the feeling I am having today. I have been trying to avoid those negative thoughts and live in place of love because anger and resentment are a big part of why our marriage crumbled. But it is easy to start to feel like you are married to a narcissist where everything revolves around THEIR needs and how terrible the marriage has been for THEM.Like our marriage issues have only affect H? The only person H seems to have any regard for now is himself. Then there is the whole decision of whether to work on the marriage, which also bring left up to the unilateral decision of H.

It also did not help reading old cards H had given at beginning. How life has so many uncertainties, but he knows that we can over come and of life's ups and downs and will always be committed. Maybe he really didn't know what that meant.

Just had to share these thoughts in this forum versus projecting on H right now. Not sure how long I can do this.

[Zues126]

BW-

You're feelings are right. I'm glad you're talking about it here. It is good to vent, and to learn where your feelings are coming from. What concerns me is when you start questioning whether you can keep DBing.

If you are going to save your M you will have to stick to a plan for a period of time even when you don't feel like it. I agree with everything you say. I don't think a spouse should destroy a M because of how they feel. Those feelings can change if you two worked together to change your M. However, look in the mirror and tell yourself the same thing. You don't feel like you want to keep standing for your M. Well, if you give up on the M because you don't feel like putting up with these feelings anymore, how is that any different than what he did?

My motto has always been to act with the character I wished my STBX had. Someone has to step up and be a leader. He's not going to do it. Either step up to the plate or agree with him that it's cool to walk because he didn't feel up to it and you're there with him.

Again, not putting words into your mouth as you haven't quit. Just sharing with you my point of view that's helped me remain committed to DBing.