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This is like 14 threads .. I can not believe it. I was sure I would have my M fixed and be wishing you all the best of luck by my 30th post .. hahahah .. oh thats rich.

Ok Last thread for those looking through archives trying to figure things out:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...part=10&q=1


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Ugh ... lost my post.

Ok, Update time ... things are moving and I am feeling a bit better with my feet back on solid ground.

Last night I picked up S and we went off to his baseball practice. W TM asking where she should get him, I reply the field as he has practice. She calls .... spewing a bit about how she wanted to just go home, had a terrible day ... I told her I would just drop off S after practice then and ended the call. I was a bit miffed, her being selfish sometimes really gets to me then I realized ... I just 'fixed' it ... I kicked myself and realized I was more angry at myself once I realized what I did than I was with her. I missed out on my church meeting, one I was really looking forward to.

W TM just as we are about done that she is at verizon, I can keep S that night or she would pick him up after. I replied I would just keep him, at this point its easier for me and its bonus time with S that I do enjoy. I was a bit miffed she could go do her stuff but not be there for S and his practice, again with the selfishness... but I let it go. S called her at bedtime as usual, she sounded depressed and sad like she had been crying. After S and I went to bed, as I was dozing off W TM "I'm having a crisis today. I'm sorry" then said she was going to bed and goodnight ... I did not reply and just fell asleep.

I drop S off and she invites me in, just as I get in .. huge hug from her, then she said she has needed a hug from me since yesterday, how yesterday was a terrible day. I asked her what was so terrible about it and she just shook her head not wanting to talk. I let it go and told her I hoped she had a better day ... another big hug. Then she grabbed a bag and handed it to me, *Curve Ball Alert* in the bag was some thick warm socks, some of the salts and spices that she can have, a pillow for her neck ... she said she wanted me to have these at my place for when she comes over. I joked with a smile and said ... are you hinting you want some of my cooking?? She looked up at me .. yeah that look.. and said "I just need some time" my poker face failed and I was a touch disappointed .. felt like rejection .. she asked what was wrong, why I 'changed' and I told her, she then said .. no no no .. very softly and kind and said she had some things she needed to take care of and get past (hinting OM) I was calm and said .. this is why we can not go into MC, you need to be done with that before we can even start to work on 'this'.

Then she started to share but stopped, told me it was not what I thought it was .. I told her calmly and sternly I am done with the secrets, if she wanted to have them and continue to live this way she was free to do so but I can't. She then opened up and I sipped on my STFU Smoothie. Things all made so much more sense as she spoke and shared, I could see a few reasons why she was spinning, things that were setting her off and when over the past 3 weeks.

So ... here is the story. OM and W are over, OM wants W to lose his number and stay out of his life. W says she has no problem with this but is waiting till Sept for the second STD screeneing to make sure she there is nothing else there. Not sure but maybe OM is another MLC'r .. I have no idea, but looks like after the A started falling apart last year, OM had told OMW that W gave him the STD (Sounds like there is a OW 2,3+ going on for him), apparently OM is wanting to avoid D, OMW has contacted W and said they should meet and put all the cards on the table. This sent W spinning a couple weeks ago as OMW tracked her down and called her at work. This is why W had to go to verizon last night, to get a dummy phone for the call with OMW as she feels she needs to tell her the truth and that the STD did not come from her but from OW2 or 3... W said she would want to know and this will give her closure so she can put it all behind her and move on. I know my W, and as strange as it is I agree with her, even with this she will have a hard time letting go, and she will have a lifetime reminder of this experience.

I thanked her and shared how this 'secret' was far worse than the actuality ... that I would not ask for all details but when I do I want honesty and no more secrets, she thanked me for being understanding. Was a good exchange, she also explained to me why she is pushing MC, in her head she needs dates, a time line ( I laughed at this ... thinking .. ok the irony is to much here) to her she wants to close this book, and begin her life and just wants to know the next step is planned out an in place. Again ... knowing her this makes sense and is more of the pre MLC behavior that is who she used to be like.

This exchange was one of the more open and honest ones we have had in years, I was able to get alot off my chest and she did to without either of us being emotional, more like .. ok here is where we are lets get through this. I seen a peek at that girl I married today, was nice to see her honestly ... I am still grounded and firm in my boundaries, if anything I am more convinced I am doing the right thing by keeping to my path .. she has work to do ... but seems she really is trying here.


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Quote:
if anything I am more convinced I am doing the right thing by keeping to my path
agreed. Wholeheartedly.

AJ


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Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
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Cali,

I am of the firm belief that your W is at the beginning stages of reintegration. That process usually lasts approximately 2 years. You're in for a bumpy several months before things begin to level out a bit. Just giving you a heads up there, bud.

You're doing so well and I like your STFU Smoothie. What flavor was it?! cool

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You are handling this so so awesome Cali. Really, I am so impressed.

You seem very grounded, stay on that path, just as you are. From here, you are definitely the rock, in a really good way smile


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Originally Posted By: Wonka
Cali,

I am of the firm belief that your W is at the beginning stages of reintegration. That process usually lasts approximately 2 years. You're in for a bumpy several months before things begin to level out a bit. Just giving you a heads up there, bud.

You're doing so well and I like your STFU Smoothie. What flavor was it?! cool



Are you saying this MLC thing lasts awhile? Oh Goody laugh LOL .... yeah I get that feeling that there is going to be some serious cycling, I guess I have just accepted she will do as she does ... I will continue growing and staying on my side of the street

That smoothie is an aquired taste ... not so good at first but ya get used to it ... sorta


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Originally Posted By: mleigh4
You are handling this so so awesome Cali. Really, I am so impressed.

You seem very grounded, stay on that path, just as you are. From here, you are definitely the rock, in a really good way smile


Thank you mleigh ... one day at a time right?


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Just journaling a bit and keeping logs of whats going on.

Yesterday S and W did his Communion retreat, she sent a few pics, TM here and there ... nothing earth shattering really. I got off work did a few things and met up with them at the park nearby as I promised S we could toss the ball around before I went to my softball game. W was friendly but you could tell she had alot going on, she walked around the park with the dog off in her own world as S and I played catch. As we were finishing up she said she was ready to go home, I ended up changing into my softball gear there and went to my game.

Not a peep all night but I was doing my thing so really did not notice ... this morning W calls on her way to work just to chat ... this is increasing as of late. She asked if she woke me up and I laughed as I was at work just had a frog in my throat, she joked and said for some reason she thought I got locked in the bathroom at the park where I changed ... I joked back and said if that were the case its nice she waited 12 hours to make sure I was ok. We chatted for 45 minutes ... some light .. some a bit deeper. I drank that STFU smoothie as she told me she is talking to OMW Monday, she told me some of the history, I am not sure why I did not stop her but I guess I was ok hearing some of it ... trying to learn from it I guess and she is opening up to me alot and seems to really want to be honest and upfront .... 180 from all the lies and deception from a year ago. She told me she has to get re-tested (STD) in September along with a sarcastic comment that would be my birthday present, I did not find the humor in this one ... she back peddled and apologized. (Again .. not like her to be very apologetic)

She recently completely erased FB, not sure why .... but its gone, she told me she was going remove all her social media, I looked and yup, she did .... not sure what her motivation is there but again .. not my circus, not my monkeys.

She brought up MC again, I was a bit better on this ... plus the timing worked in my favor as it was just after the OM/OMW discussion, I told her for me there has to be closure there before I was ready, She asked when that would be ... I told her I was not sure but when I feel that book is closed and done then I will make the appointment, I made sure she understood where I was coming from and really put it on me, not her .... I told her I am still processing things and I want to be fair and not move forward until I was ready, seemed to work much better.

So things are still moving, they are better , feels like there is a connection starting to develop ... again I am cautious and moving slowly.


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Cali,

uR and I are of the same mind in keeping things real with posters here in MLC-land. I do want to respond to these comments:

Originally Posted By: CaliGuy

She brought up MC again, I was a bit better on this ... plus the timing worked in my favor as it was just after the OM/OMW discussion, I told her for me there has to be closure there before I was ready, She asked when that would be ... I told her I was not sure but when I feel that book is closed and done then I will make the appointment, I made sure she understood where I was coming from and really put it on me, not her .... I told her I am still processing things and I want to be fair and not move forward until I was ready, seemed to work much better.


I can understand the need to be in a self-protection mode...totally. Yet I think it is important that you don't want to continue holding this Sword of Damocles over W's throat thus reminder her of the "pain" she inflected on you. At some point, you're going have to make a conscious choice to move beyond it.

In W's mind, she's making sincere efforts to begin repairing the damage and she's seeking professional help for YOU TWO. That is huge in my book for most MLCers tend to look at the LBS as a wingman as to what the next steps 'should' be on a path forward. She's taking the initiative which should be commended and applauded.

It would be valuable to W to acknowledge her effort in taking the initiative in seeking out a MC for the greater good of the M. I do hope you will make a similar comment to W at some point. I sense that deep down W wants recognition and acknowledgement for her efforts in that regard.

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Originally Posted By: Wonka
Cali,

uR and I are of the same mind in keeping things real with posters here in MLC-land. I do want to respond to these comments:

I can understand the need to be in a self-protection mode...totally. Yet I think it is important that you don't want to continue holding this Sword of Damocles over W's throat thus reminder her of the "pain" she inflected on you. At some point, you're going have to make a conscious choice to move beyond it.

In W's mind, she's making sincere efforts to begin repairing the damage and she's seeking professional help for YOU TWO. That is huge in my book for most MLCers tend to look at the LBS as a wingman as to what the next steps 'should' be on a path forward. She's taking the initiative which should be commended and applauded.

It would be valuable to W to acknowledge her effort in taking the initiative in seeking out a MC for the greater good of the M. I do hope you will make a similar comment to W at some point. I sense that deep down W wants recognition and acknowledgement for her efforts in that regard.


Yeah I see your point Wonka .. and you are right, the fact she is reaching out the olive branch so to speak is huge and requires a good deal of courage on her part. We have discussed the MC a bit this past week or so, I am truly on the fence to be honest ... knowing we need it and accepting that, but just very timid as the past experiences were not good .... I need to let that go, the A is over. W during these talks did share she felt like she was ganged up on in the last session (Rightfully so, I was still so hurt and angry from all the lies and deception that were still going on at that time), I get that .. I had no idea of MLC at the time, nor was I DBing 'officially', I never really begged and pleaded to my credit, but I admittedly could have handled things much better ... heck .. I still am at that point where I question if I am handling this correctly at the moment. My stance was I would not go to MC till A was done .... well its done, so why am I holding that Sword of Damocles as you aptly put it, I need to think about that.
The other thing that I am reflecting on is the way she feels ... she knows she cheated, I do not remind her nor need to ... but obviously this will be brought up in MC, its something we will have to address and get past. Maybe it is time for MC, she has a point ... we both admitted we do not know where to start, having the MC apt may ease the pressure from her knowing I have accepted whats been done and am looking towards the future ... if she is going to go to IC thats on her 100% regardless.


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Luke, to me, in order for MC to help, both parties have to be on or at least near the same page. Otherwise, it is just not going to go well.

Yea, you do have to work towards forgiveness and acceptance of what happened and let go of wanting her to seem really apologetic about it. At least for right now.

As I told you, rarely does the MLCer, at least in the early stages of reconnection, apologize and tell all the things the spouse thinks they need to hear.

I get your fear. I get your hesitation, too. I guess you have to decide if you are willing to see where this is going to go. If you are, then, MC would be the next step.

Hopefully once she talks to OMW, she will be able to let all of that go, too.

I wish she would go to IC, but, you cant make that happen.

So, you have some decisions to make. If you decide to go to MC, please try to find a solutions based one, if you can.

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uR

I agree with the on/near the same page concept, I guess I just question the speed of it all ... reading some old/archived stories seems that I am not the only one with the "Whoa this is going to fast .. hold up.. am I the only one who recalls the past few years of destruction .. .will this be addressed?" type feelings/responses.
Lately I am getting more glimpses of the old W while she seems to still be patching her in with the new W, as she is often talking future ... long term things, I just listen for the most part accepting it for what it is.
She is more self conscious, asking me if she has always been this way or that way, asking about the STD issue ... feeling like she is temp checking to see my reaction of that as if to figure if I accept her this way.
For me .. just observing this, must be horrible in their heads, exhausting .. heck its exhausting just watching it from afar. I shudder thinking about being in their shoes ... yeah in a way I feel sorry for her, seems she is waking up and walking around a town that was just leveled by a twister and she is trying to gather memories and figure out how she will sort through and make a life of this mess

In other news..... Cali is getting his ducks in a row and trying to get things back together. I set up a Dr apt for myself ... hip has been barking for a month or two ... I am not Dr but I dont think hips should be barking. Looking at rotating the tires on my vehicle this weekend, I have 1 year left on the lease and fully intend on turning that puppy in with bald tires, not new ones ....lol. I also hope to work on the Harley ... its been over 2 months since the wreck and I think I can make all the repairs myself ... have to .. $$ is tight now that I am in the new place. Pretty sure I have some stuff in storage that will sell this weekend.
Busy weekend but looking like I will get some things accomplished!


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Originally Posted By: CaliGuy

For me .. just observing this, must be horrible in their heads, exhausting .. heck its exhausting just watching it from afar. I shudder thinking about being in their shoes ...


Nope. It ain't pretty at all in that noggin. Just thank your lucky stars that you were not hit by the Great Grim MLC Reaper.

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Not to hijack,

but I was driving today and got a phone call from a guy I worked with 6 or 7 years ago. He called to talk because we worked fairly closely and he knew I went through a MLC and described it to him back then.

He wanted to talk because he was in a bad way mentally and was really struggling. He described MLC as far as I know what it is really accurately.

It's no walk in the park. I did tell him to see the journey through as there is gold at the end but your fingers will be bloodied and probably a few more things digging for it.

Mirage

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Mirage - not to hijack either, but it helps us LBS's with the reminder that life is not as peachy as it seems in the MLC world. So thank you for that.


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Luke, I've been thinking about you. Yea, well, it happens sometimes. LOL!

Anyway, I want to say a few things. This...all of it..should not ever be at the expense of you. Ever.

That said, should you have compassion for your wife? Yes. She is in crisis, which is a horrific thing to go through. She is the mother of your child and a large part of your life story.

But that doesnt mean that she gets a free pass. It doesnt mean that she doesnt need to own her actions at some point. It doesnt mean that just because she may be reconnecting, that you have to do anything that doesnt feel right to you.

The reason for that is that you matter, too.

So, think about MC because I know that you want to try to do the right thing. I know that much about you.

Dont do it for that reaason. It wont work. And the truth is, I feel she needs to be further along. I think that what you are going to hear there isnt necessarily what you want to hear. Not at this point.

Now you may be ok with that. Going in with that mindset. Seeing where it goes.

But it can also set you and she back if not done at the right time, with the right person and with your expectations in the right place.

As I said, you matter, too. It has to be in your best interests at your particular place in your journey.

It should not be JUST because its the correct thing. It shouldnt be just because she may be reconnecting.

It should be because you want to see if your relationship is worth saving. Not as an obligation. Not as a fallback.

But because you see the possibilities.

I will support you in whatever you choose. I hope you know that by now. I care a great deal about you. I hope you know that, too. smile

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Originally Posted By: uRworthy
Luke, I've been thinking about you. Yea, well, it happens sometimes. LOL!

Anyway, I want to say a few things. This...all of it..should not ever be at the expense of you. Ever.

That said, should you have compassion for your wife? Yes. She is in crisis, which is a horrific thing to go through. She is the mother of your child and a large part of your life story.

But that doesnt mean that she gets a free pass. It doesnt mean that she doesnt need to own her actions at some point. It doesnt mean that just because she may be reconnecting, that you have to do anything that doesnt feel right to you.

The reason for that is that you matter, too.

uR .... I read this via phone over the weekend a few times, seems just as I was struggling in this area I really had to step back .... I could feel W sucking me back in and I was resisting like a cat about to get a bubble bath. And that "Free Pass" thing was one of the things eating at me, that and the fact I discovered OM was in the picture not 3-4 days prior to her "Im sorry I want to work on the M" plea .... seems to be her trend .. no space between .... again not having all the info and only having tidbits has been frustrating, but I realized I do not have to be on this ride, I lost track of that. Like you said .. I matter, I think its so easy to focus on the MLC'rs and make it all about them, voice what they have done, focus on them that we forget about ourselves and that's when the major spin cycles happen ... I seen this starting so I got off ... thankfully.


Originally Posted By: uRworthy

So, think about MC because I know that you want to try to do the right thing. I know that much about you.

Dont do it for that reaason. It wont work. And the truth is, I feel she needs to be further along. I think that what you are going to hear there isnt necessarily what you want to hear. Not at this point.

Now you may be ok with that. Going in with that mindset. Seeing where it goes.

But it can also set you and she back if not done at the right time, with the right person and with your expectations in the right place.

As I said, you matter, too. It has to be in your best interests at your particular place in your journey.

It should not be JUST because its the correct thing. It shouldnt be just because she may be reconnecting.

It should be because you want to see if your relationship is worth saving. Not as an obligation. Not as a fallback.

But because you see the possibilities.

I will support you in whatever you choose. I hope you know that by now. I care a great deal about you. I hope you know that, too. smile


As far as MC goes, and yeah it was discussed again over the weekend a couple times. I can not mindread, even if my Jedi training has been amazing, but I just get the gut feel ... its an uneasy feel that its one of two things. I get a hunch that W feels like the A did not pan out, and she goes through with MC to either say she tried and forces me to file for D because she is scared to, Maybe its the last ditch to prove she 'tried' so she can remove the guilt she feels (Guilt has been pretty obvious this past week or so) ....... Or maybe its dipping a pinkie tow into MC using it as her way to get some IC out of it. I am not feeling that its a "I am committed to us, I know I screwed up and will do anything to save this M" because honestly I just do not think the MLC works that way nor would her pride/stubborness allow her to admit that at this time. As you said ... sure we have history ... but saving the M just to save it is not what I am interested in, this is the rest of my life I am looking at and I want to share that with someone.... who that is remains to be determined at this point.

As it stands I have told her I need to feel like its a good time for us both, I have some things I need to get over/work through ... as I can imagine she does as well ... update to follow up on those things.


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I was going to post yesterday in my normal "Look what happened to me over the weekend" fashion .... but W and I got into it a little bit and I just needed to sort through things .... decided to dive into work and just let things go for a bit.

Confession time ... W has had the dog at her place for the past week, its actually better for me, no stress about the dog, she can take care of him for a bit ... however she decided that since she does not get home till later, it would be better for me to swing by and walk him after work ... no problem really, so she gave me a key to her place. At first I was actually surprised she did this, like a teenager she wanted her room locked at all times kinda thing. So I have been walking the dog all week .. no big deal. Friday S wanted to show me something on the ipad and her email was open .... yup .. snooped a bit. Nothing to contradict the past events but there were some older emails there and I read some things I should not have .. nothing that shocked me but still hurt nonetheless. Confirmed OM came over to 'rub her neck' after she hurt it at the gym, about a week or so prior to the beach talk of "I want to work on the M" I should not have done this as it fed 'hurt little boy' and created some issues for me over the weekend, but after all the on and offs I wanted to verify OM is out of the picture as I still do not trust her, even though she seems to be wanting to open up and tell the truth.

So Later that night W comes over to pick up S, wanted to chit chat and we started talking. Actually talked about the A and OM as I told her we can not just act like it did not happen, she tried to tell me it was not what it seemed .... I actually laughed at her, she has herpes because of all this and I asked how does it "seem" smirking at the mind reading she was performing. She told me they did not spend as much time together as I assumed. With that she shared that she knew she destroyed my trust but pointed out I never trusted her ... we talked about this and why. Then she said if I had any questions she would answer them .... this surprised me, I did ask how long the A went as some monster things she said it could have been over the past couple years (This was what I thought) or maybe the past 5 or so years. She told me how they met, then he pursued as he was gettinga D 3 years ago (Still has not happened) and how our issues mounted and she just wanted out. Was actually a good calm talk up until she did try to defend him a bit ... she said something along the lines of "I know he is a liar and used me but he is a nice ... " I told her sternly .. "do not defend that POS in my house, you can go be with him if he is such a great guy and that is who you want." ...may not have been the proper thing to say .. but it just felt she forgot she was talking to her husband who the A hurt for a second .. she apologized .. I actually thanked her for being open and honest knowing that it was not easy for her and that was a big step as far as I was concerned to rebuild what was lost. She stayed a bit then took S back to her place.

Saturday S had a game, W actually called me early and invited me to a place we used to always grab breakfast at in a funny TM sort of way. Things I have noticed .. she makes it a point to sit next to me. We had a nice breakfast ... she insisted on paying, went to S's game, had a good time there. I dropped them off at her place and went home to clean up, W asked if I wanted to come over and watch a movie ... I decided to go. I arrived as they were just finishing up, started a movie and W fell asleep *Cali issue alert* ... as I am there watching the movie .. W asleep I found myself thinking .. I always used to find that cute, she would be out ... then I started spinning .. if I were OM I doubt she would be asleep, I doubt she would have been running around in sweats ... I started getting angry about it. I put S to bed and as I was leaving she woke up confused as to what was going on .. I simply said goodnight and went home and finished watching the movie there.

Sunday W called, apologized for falling asleep, asked if we were still going to church but wanted to go later. I told her later would be fine and we talked about ^^^ I told her how I felt. She got a bit defensive, I told her it was not fair for me to compare and I do not want to be that way but sometimes I sit at her place and there are triggers, then the spinning for me starts ... I atleast got it off my chest but realized there is no way she can deal with my pain and deal with what she is going through at the same time. She chalked it up to sharing Friday night and thats why I was like this .. does not want to talk about OM or the A again .... I let it go .. but realize that elephant will have to be adressed at some point .... I also realized that I put all that hurt and pain in a lock box when I let go of the rope, figured I would not have to deal with the betrayal and hurt ... as with all I have learned in MLC .. wrong again Cali.

So we went to church, I arrived early and was reading the days readings, W and S arrived just in time S was upset I had him sit on one side and W on the other of me ... had S smiling within a few short minutes. The homily ... ugh ... W must have felt the entire church was staring at her, she was literally restless, grabbing her neck, all tense, after mass ended I walked her out to the car, as she sat she just looked like a wreck, I asked her if she was ok, I genuinely was concerned and not as a H, more as just a person. She shared she was lost, felt no connection with the church because of all the guilt, not after everything she destroyed .... I was able to share with her some things I learned, things I had gone through, was actually a really good talk and she went shopping as S and I went to do our thing.

Later W TM asking if she could come over and nap, she did not want to sleep alone at her place. Seems to be a trend, the past few weeks Sunday is my time with S, we are active and do things and W does not want to be alone, I have invited her on some things but as we were just going to watch a movie I was a little dim with W later that day. Sure enough she shows and goes and sleeps in my bed, wakes up later and goes home. Strangest things really ... like a teen coming home to feel safe and secure then off they go.

Last night W spoke with OMW, told me it was 'an interesting 2 hours" that OMW was cordial as was W ... she was short and distant this morning, TM "sorry about this mornign but I did not want to talk about it" .... not my circus .. not my monkeys ... however my hopes are this A is now closed and done for all parties involved and people can start figuring how to pick up the pieces and move on ... with or without the WAS/MLC'rs

As for me .. I am back to center, that tornado outside is starting to lose power and I am at peace again. Sunday for me helped, just being in church and the feeling that came over me during Eucharist, hard to explain but I am so thankful for my faith. During the talk with W, she shared she was lost and not sure what to do, who to talk to .. I suggested a certain priest and she was open to the idea, time will tell if she goes that way I have learned she needs to put in the work and help herself at some point, I would feel that way for anyone, friend, relative, just so happens her and I were once married ... still are on paper I suppose ... but for the first time I do not really 'feel' she is my W any longer, and even more uncertain if she would be GF material to be honest. Again ... time will tell... I am still trying to work on me, I realized over the weekend I have much more to do.


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Ok, so, I am gonna challenge you a bit here...cuz I can. Hee hee.

Here's what I think about forgiveness. You either make a decision that you are going to forgive at some point or you dont.

I am telling you that for a reason. Bear with me for a minute. I get that you are still hurt about the affair. I get that it is going to take you some time to get over it. Totally.

But you keep saying the elephant has to be addressed and I am wondering what you mean by that exactly. I mean you know about him and what happened. You know why and how it happened. So, what does addressing it look like to you?

Because here's the thing...holding onto it weighs you down. I am not saying forget it...at all. I am saying that at some point you need to let it go. You arent there yet..but that needs to be a goal.

And yea, the snooping...not a good idea, right? Doesnt serve you well.

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uR

I think the forgiveness part is for me, and at THIS point ... I have gone through the "its over, he and I are done" talks now for the what ... 5th time? So I find myself really not sold, even though this time things have happened that have not in the past 18 months.

To answer your question, yeah I have to get to a point where I've forgiven and let it go .. regardless of if the M survives or not. There are some seriously deep rooted pains I now find myself having to face and to be honest I do not know if I will ever be over them, almost seemed easier to let it go, blame her and MLC and carry on my way. This is harder ... as people here have said it would be. I had not ML with my wife for 4 years when she slept with OM and got herpes only 3 months after BD, sex was an issue between us, seems like an A was only the symptom not the cause (my observation in our M)... one I did not handle well during the M, and now its even more complicated, is this what I want, something I can live with, its a life time reminder of the A and that kinda stinks .... I am searching for those answers at this time.

What does addressing it look like to me? Well alot like what her and I did Friday, she was open and honest and laid out what happened and how the A slowly started,and then just at the right time the situation with our M, and his ... they both used each other .... I get that. I do not want any more secrets ... I do not really need to know all of what happened, I think I have learned enough from the past on where her and I went wrong, things I would use in any new R ... knowing if the R is strong and stable the A issue is not going to repeat itself. I guess speaking aloud ... there is little more I need at this point as far as the A and OM go ... other than to be assured its truly over...as of yet I have not seen anything that has convinced me. I asked Friday what if OM called her up and wanted to make their R work, her reply was "he doesn't want me" ... not a No way, I want M, or anything of that nature ... so my ears kinda perked up there, I have little trust in her ... she is at least owning that .... I told her it will take time and consistency on her part for me to trust it.

I do know letting go of this needs to be a goal and it is regardless of the M, but I am not to that point just yet ... I am slowly getting there, and like I told her Friday night I MUST arrive to a place I let it go because I do not want to use this over her, we both have been through enough and from what I have seen in between her emotional ups there is a good deal of guilt there I am just not sure of her motives for wanting the M at this point ... I have not been given what I feel are correct answers there.


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Cali,

Something to keep in mind is that forgiveness isn't a linear process. Forgive yourself and forgive your W. You both are not perfect.

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Ok, just a little more pushing...

Forgiveness is absolutely for you. It is separate from the hurt this caused. I get the thought of wanting to just carry on your way sometimes. The thing is that if you don’t get to the root of those things...they come with you.

And yea, you dont want to use this over her. That doesnt help anyone. I know it sure felt like it, but, what she did didnt have to do with you.

For me, forgiveness was an act of strength. It was an acceptance of what is and the letting go of expecting something different.

It isnt about denying the hurt or justifying the wrong, but, about forgiving the person.

I realized that people do the best they can with what they know, with where they are and with what they’ve got. It isn’t my place to judge, nor my place to condemn and I can only be in control of my actions.

It means that you fill yourself with love and you radiate that love outward and refuse to hang onto the bad feelings that were felt by the behaviors that caused the wounds.

The moment you tell yourself: I had enough, this pain no longer serves me, that will be the moment that you feel forgiveness is power.

Luke, be careful not to confuse what you want to hear from her with what you need to do for yourself.

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Cali,

Please know that uR and I are not trying to bombard you with info just for "push's" sake...but to cheer you along your path and make comments that make you look at yourself thus examining your own motives. Growth is what we're aiming here and please take it for what it truly is here.

Here is a section that got me thinking:

Originally Posted By: Caliguy
I do know letting go of this needs to be a goal and it is regardless of the M, but I am not to that point just yet ... I am slowly getting there, and like I told her Friday night I MUST arrive to a place I let it go because I do not want to use this over her, we both have been through enough and from what I have seen in between her emotional ups there is a good deal of guilt there I am just not sure of her motives for wanting the M at this point ... I have not been given what I feel are correct answers there.


"Correct" answers by whose standards?

What are the supposedly "correct" answers?


What does "correct answers" supposed to look like?

How does one qualify "correct" answers?

Will you ever be satisfied with not so "correct" answers even if it is how W honestly feels during those moments?

Remember that W is processing her own thoughts, emotions, and recollections too.

The danger that I see here is that you're changing the goalposts each time you are not satisfied with not "correct" answers from your W or you're just not "feeling" it at all.

It is dangerous because there is a sense of an invisible yardstick at play here and it isn't fair to W at all because there is no clear communication of what requirements are supposed to be in place as a way of "measuring" SOMETHING that W is supposed to do.

Whose timetable is this on? Yours? Mrs. Cali?

Is it fair or equitable from an objective standpoint?

What do you think?




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You are right uR... It's not like I'm sitting her hoping I never forgive, I'm close to it I think but it's going to take time .... I read this a few days ago:

Forgiveness Means Giving Up All Hope for a Better Past

It's spot on and made sense... I can not have a better past and at this point in the game living there serves me no good... I've accepted what's happened has happened, will I ever forget... Most likely not... But this journey has taught me a few of the whys... W must own her share and deal with the fall out just as I have... I haven't walked her walk nor would I wish that on anyone ... I have to remind myself to keep my eyes forward and not hold onto the past, if one holds on to that then they will never grasp the good to come... One day at a time

Thanks uR for pushing ... Always easier to look in the mirror than it is to try and figure out the fog


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Winks
I'm on the phone ... Interesting post and I will reply later tonight.. You've given me some things to think about


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Originally Posted By: Wonka
Cali,

Please know that uR and I are not trying to bombard you with info just for "push's" sake...but to cheer you along your path and make comments that make you look at yourself thus examining your own motives. Growth is what we're aiming here and please take it for what it truly is here.


Wonka thank you, and no I do not feel bombarded... I know I still have more to work on and most likely always will. I really appreciate all the outside perspectives knowing I am in the middle of the forest its often difficult to see that I keep walking in circles as I try to find my way out.

Originally Posted By: Wonka


"Correct" answers by whose standards?

What are the supposedly "correct" answers?


What does "correct answers" supposed to look like?

How does one qualify "correct" answers?

Will you ever be satisfied with not so "correct" answers even if it is how W honestly feels during those moments?


"Correct answers" I read this last night after I made my post to uR, and yeah you are right ... its the same as "my terms" in a way controlling. I guess what I meant and how I feel is that I am not ready to jump back into this marriage with someone who could possibly still be involved with an OM, I feel pressured into doing so by W on the grounds that her A did not live up to the fantasy she thought it would so I feel like option #2 .... its how I feel, is it right, is it fair, is it how it really is .. maybe not (I doubt she would admit it right now) .. but its what I have to deal with. I see your point on the "correct Answers" and suddenly realize one of the first valuable lessons I learned her .. believe nothing of what they say and 50% of what they do ... her actions as of late have been much more promising, and just because she is not saying the magic words should not make me try to get her to do things MY way. I see that now. Thank you.


Originally Posted By: Wonka


Remember that W is processing her own thoughts, emotions, and recollections too.

The danger that I see here is that you're changing the goalposts each time you are not satisfied with not "correct" answers from your W or you're just not "feeling" it at all.

It is dangerous because there is a sense of an invisible yardstick at play here and it isn't fair to W at all because there is no clear communication of what requirements are supposed to be in place as a way of "measuring" SOMETHING that W is supposed to do.

Whose timetable is this on? Yours? Mrs. Cali?

Is it fair or equitable from an objective standpoint?

What do you think?



I do feel she is sorting out her own emotions, Looking at this from a different viewpoint, W is dealing with a lot of things .... she really is going through a ton of digestion right now, add in the MLC stuff ... I could not imagine.

As far as time table .. yeah seems to be mine .. she is pushing for MC and I am resisting ... why? Well I feel she has a ton going on at the moment but seems she wants to have the comfort that MC is in place, like she wants to fix the M and I guess I am just not believing it just yet.

Do I want MC ... yes. I just feel so much pressure concerning it, like if it does not work out we are done for good .... then again we were at that point some time ago. I do feel without it we are not going to break the cycle we seem to be in at the moment. Maybe just setting up the appt will take some pressure off her .... she told me she needs that to be in place in her brain for some reason, I do not understand it but after our talk last night I guess its like a safety net for her before she will put herself out on the tightrope ... and maybe I need to take a step in that direction too.


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Just adding a bit here.

So Monday night W chatted with OMW, something she said she needed to do. She TM at 11 at night (I was asleep) that it was an interesting few hours left it at that. Next morning pretty short .. said she didn't want to talk about it. All day .. again .. dim I was busy working, even tinkered on the Harley and am so close to putting it back together .. been almost 3 months since the wreck.

As I left work W called, she was leaving early to go to the Chiro, I was PMA, as was she ... she asked me over for dinner. I was pretty shocked actually as she seemed off all day ... the kind of off that was like she was with OM ... again MY issue to get over. So I asked if I could bring anything she suggested some chicken from the local store ... I arrive a bit late with S but we had a nice dinner.

We had S go take a shower and we talked. She opened up and shared some about the call. I did not ask but she was open telling me alot, holding back here and there, information I would assume she felt was to private or might hurt me. Overall .. OM is a chronic cheater, along with that he is a very skilled liar. OMW and W had some time tables and names of other women he was with ... appears dude was busy. I was calm, STFU, listened and never once got upset or even bothered ... nothing shocked me from what she shared.... I did find myself as she was talking asking "Why is she telling me all this?" I am still not sure. However one thing stuck out ... and I did tell W, I hope you can move on from this, she said she could but it would take time and I suggested this is why I feel MC is not good right now, she got a little snippy and said things are "always on my terms".... Wonkas post making me think ... this may be an issue I need to address, even if I feel I am right.

So I left not long after, thanked her for the talk, thanked her for being open and honest and told her I knew it is not easy for her. She voiced how she did not want me to use it against her and if I did she would clam up and not share, I told her nothing that she said really shocked me nor did I come away with any upset feelings, I was honest. (If anything it just validated my suspicions about OM and the type of person he is... honestly W could have done much better) I told her that not having a secret life nor something that we are hiding will start creating a path to resolving things, she said she had none of that, just reaffirmed her friend 'K' who I know about ... (I thought possible OM3 at one point) I told her if there was something more there I would have figured she could have easily gone that direction, she assured me there is not, he has been there for her and she sees him as a brother .... personally I am not threatened there, I do not want this sitch to create me into Capt'n Jealous. She then joked if I had any secrets or dating apps on my phone ... I shared I did some time back, even went on a date back in Nov but realized it wasnt for me .. she gave me a good ribbing about it in a fun way ... asked who, what she looked like, if she was cute, chubby, if we kissed ... all in a playful way ... I asked is she was jealous and she said no, just shocked her ... smiled and hugged me as I left.

So thats where things are now, I am really still giving the MC some thought ... not sure about it but I do feel it would give W some comfort that I am open to fixing this with us, maybe thats the reassurance she needs knowing there is a good deal of damage there.


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Luke, I want to be clear on how I feel about some things in your sitch.

I want you to work towards forgiveness for you.

I do see some inconsistencies when dealing with your w. On the one hand, you say you dont want to hear about the OM. On the other hand, you tell her that she cant have any secrets if this is going to work.

So, you may want to think about that some.

I am a little concerned about your son. Trust me when I tell you he sees that things are changing between you and his mom and is probably confused. Might want to keep an eye on what he may be feeling.

Also, MLCers often like to hear that we have dated. In their mind, it takes some of the guilt away even though its way different.

Oh and I find this interesting when you wrote about MC:

Originally Posted By: CaliGuy

like if it does not work out we are done for good


I know there is some fear about going into MC. Fear that it is really over. Fear of what you may hear. Fear that she may not really try. I get it.

The thing about it is...that we shouldnt make decisions from a place of fear, but, rather from a place of strength.

I am in no way telling you that you need to do MC now. That is your choice and I think if you are hesitant about it, follow your gut. It wont work otherwise. Just be sure that your reasons are valid for you, ya know?

Luke, this stuff succks. All of it. The beginning, the middle, the end.

You have grown a great deal. We all have more to work on.

Continue to walk it with the dignity and courage you have been.

Nothing has to be decided today.

You have a right to your feelings. Do what is best for you.

When making decisions, dont do it from the hurt little boy's view. I know that the affair speaks to him. I know that hurt very well.

What I learned is that what my xh chose to do is on him. While it felt personal to me, it was really about how he felt about himself. That is why they most always affair down.

Your w doesnt get a free pass on her actions. She has to own them. What you dont want to do is take the responsibility on that she does. Thats not your job.

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That forgiveness thing ... I have been all over that for a few weeks. I want to forgive her I do, and maybe I have but not fully ... I do not know. Its not like I want to punish her, and I realize there is nothing she can do to take it away. The past is the past and I really do not want to live there.

The no secrets thing .. that's 'current in the now' type stuff. I think the fact she has told me its over between them and it just was'nt ... that's what has me gun shy here. Her cycle seemed to be .. on and off with him during the course of the A for whatever reason .. as soon as it was off she ran to me, only for that rush to hit and back to him without telling me, I would only know by her actions leaving me feeling foolish .. more than once. So to clarify ... I honestly have no desire to know the in-particulars between them ... had nothing to do with me, and at this point would only pull the scab off.

Like usual ... posts like yours and others .. brilliant ... and I read it a few times yesterday. You may find me crazy but I am starting to become convinced God sent you ... along with this forum to help me.

I was thinking about your comment about S, deep down I have been thinking the same thing. I have been pretty careful about what I do and do not say concerning W during this whole thing ... she mad some mistakes (as we all do) .. but S witnessed OM over several times and figured out he was not just a 'friend' as W put it .. that was sealed when OM planted a kiss on her in front of him. Now there is nothing I can do about that, but that did start some things with S, she broke some trust there. I think during this whole thing S felt he needed to protect me, I just feel that's what kids do when they see a MLC'r but do not understand the whats and whys ... heck us LBSs hardly have a handle on it.
Anyways on the way to practice I talked to S about the changes with W and I. And yeah he feels I am different with her, I explained to him why as best as I could and I opened up and shared with him that the R between he and I was extremely important to me and I never wanted to lose that, if anything I wanted it to grow. He opened up and shared his reservations with W, how she treats him vs how I do .... kid had a few points and I told him its something we will all have to work on together (not saying we will be back together because who knows .. but regardless of where he stays). Ended the talk with a hug, and told him again how much I love him and how thankful I was to have become so close to him where we can share difficult things and talk them out.
After that .. new kid .. all happy and bouncing around .. guess lil dude had an elephant of his own that needed to be talked about.


Back to me ... After the talk with S, and thinking about it, plus a few of the 'look inward' posts I have realized a couple things. I became a bit disoriented with the seemingly sudden shift with W. So much so I was more focused on the new eruption of past feelings (the pain, hurt, betrayal) that I lost sight of Cali 2.0 for a bit. I was different around her because I was guarded ... thats now who I am ... regardless of what happens I have done to much work to relapse and be the hurt little boy. I need to shine regardless.

Spoke to W briefly this morning... she was down a bit due to a flare up (STD) and made a comment about how OM got away with it. I told her it all comes around, explained how we both must stop living in the past and look ahead to a promising future and what focus on what is good ... vs the bad. I wanted to point out that she chose that life and is not a complete innocent victim but I know where those words and thoughts come from .. not 2.0 type thoughts so I tossed em out. She hugged me and I wished her a good day ... she TM asking me to update her on my Dr appt.

Hope you all are well ... gotta run


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Luke, I firmly believe that people are put into our lives for a reason and He most certainly has a hand in it. smile

So, I sure am glad He guided me to you.

I am also glad you spoke with your son. They are amazing and so intuitive.

My friend, I just want to say that you rock.

Ha, bet you thought I was going to write something to make your head hurt...fooled ya, didnt I? LOL!

You do. You got this. You just gotta remember who you have become and remember to let stuff that isnt important go. Makes life easier, ya know?

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uR ... I have absolutely no doubt that He leads us to certain people as well as leads them to us ... thank you for being there for me.

Yeah, I had to chuckle as the W has always had a problem with letting things go, she would ask often how to get past something and of course 'Mr Fix-it' had the answers .... here I am holding onto something that would do me absolutely no good regardless of the M, oh the irony. :P

So just a few "Me" things. Couple days ago I got a call from the individual who runs that RCIA program I am in (And nearly completed with) and he wanted to ask me something, he thought of me right away and would like me to share my "Faith Story" with the group ... typically this has been done here and there but usually by sponsors or guest speakers ... I was floored but something inside of me has known for awhile my story might help someone else who is having problems and I would be asked to share it .. not only with a M, but talking personally lost and so far away. For those confused .. the Faith Story is how one found God and decided to open themselves up to Him and just allow Him to take over. Not that my story is any better than someone elses ... I do come from a much different place than most so I am both excited and terrified to share, but I do think it will be a very profound growth step for me to do .... completely airing my dirt to all and showing them its not to late nor is anyone totally lost.

Thing #2 ... and I am just Jacked up on PMA today. I finally finished fixing the Harley!!!:D. For those new to my Sitch, I bought myself the Harley (Yes I got a few 'He is in MLC' remarks ... made me literally crack up and laugh) back in Aug ... part of my 180/PMA/GAL ... something I always wanted, was afraid to do because of how W would react, so I stepped up and finally just went out and did something for myself. Well in Feb I had a little accident, was sore for a good month, and then realized it was going to take about $2000 to fix ... or ... yup... *Cue Spicoli's voice* "I've got an awesome set of tools I can fix it". Was more an issue of getting time ... but after maybe $100 and about 5 hours, she is sitting outside and I am riding her to my softball game tonight ... seriously excited. laugh

W has been TM through the day, she has S at work and he seems to be doing well, she is not feeling well due to the outbreak ... strange thing is she is sharing with me the effects it has on her ... she has had this for a year now, but she is actually openly sharing how it drains her and tells me she gets a little grump making sure I know its that and nothing I did. Improvement from the past months/years in that area.


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Hey Cali, been lurking around your sitch watching it unfold.

Congrats and yeay to your Harley being back on the road - Well Done you :o) So clever .... enjoy your ride, I bet it feels such a huge sense of acheievement .... So so happy for you.

Sharing your story with others is a gift, its a tale of strength, faith and courage; to never to give up on yourself. Your story will touch others and the cycle of love and hope will continue. This is how god shares his message, through his followers. I commend you Cali for opening yourself up for others, you have grown so much and you should be so very proud of yourself.

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Just a couple of things that you may not want to lose sight of, amigo.
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The thing is that if you don’t get to the root of those things...they come with you

Forgiveness Means Giving Up All Hope for a Better Past

Its not like I want to punish her, and I realize there is nothing she can do to take it away. The past is the past and I really do not want to live there.
Those are golden. But I wonder if you really meant that last part? Really felt it all over? Or if maybe, just maybe there's a little bit of you that wants to?

Forgiveness starts with being asked for it. Really meaning that the other person wants forgiveness. A little disorienting when in that position after so long in a different position to be sure. Many have been there (I haven't, but I can imagine smile )

When people say the old marriage is dead and gone... I think you're starting to see that, no? Yesterday is dead and gone. In the can. Finito. But here and now? It's right here.

Forgiving both of you for your part? Forgiving you? Sounds like it still needs to be done as part of this.

And I think you have a good perspective, for what it's worth. And fantastic advice to navigate. But keep in mind no matter what happens you'll need to forgive you and her. That's unavoidable for Cali 2.0 and in his world of faith. While you're thinking about things, keep in mind what you've been forgiven for. Forget the rest for now. Forgive you. Clear that off your plate of things to do, and then tackle the next item.

And keep an eye on your S. Sounds like he benefits from your reassurances and being able to articulate what he's feeling. That's absolutely platinum in all of this. Don't lose sight of that.

And don't be too hard on yourself overall. It's not easy surfing these waves. If anyone can do it though, it's you. smile

AJ


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LouR.. Thank you for your kind words

AJ

Originally Posted By: AJM
Just a couple of things that you may not want to lose sight of, amigo. Those are golden. But I wonder if you really meant that last part? Really felt it all over? Or if maybe, just maybe there's a little bit of you that wants to?

I really don't .. atleast the 2.0 version doesn't ... that hurt little boy?... sure there are times he wants that .. but thats not what I want nor who I am anymore. Alone or M .. I really can not undo the past .... will I ever forget about it .. hardly .. I have accepted that too. There will be triggers that will take me there throughout my life I am sure, I will most likely have some backslides .. again .. I accept this is all part of the process but I feel stronger behind the wheel just accepting this is how to continue to grow. [/quote]


Originally Posted By: AJM

Forgiveness starts with being asked for it. Really meaning that the other person wants forgiveness. A little disorienting when in that position after so long in a different position to be sure. Many have been there (I haven't, but I can imagine smile )


I agree with you here ... but I think my W is still coming to grips with her own hurts, and peeking at the destruction that happened while she was in LaLa land. At this point seems she has more of a "I do not deserve forgiveness / He will never forgive me" type approach. I have been careful not to throw it in her face as much as the pain surfaced as of late. But there are issues surfacing with S that are clear reminders for her that it was not just me who was hurt out of all this. [/quote]


Originally Posted By: AJM

When people say the old marriage is dead and gone... I think you're starting to see that, no? Yesterday is dead and gone. In the can. Finito. But here and now? It's right here.
Oh I totally see that, I think the misconception surrounded the fantasy that the LBS would hold true and be the same person, and when/if the MLC'r comes out they would return to be the same person .. and understandably enter back into the same marriage. Truth is ... They both change so much that there is no possible way that M would not change along with them. I would compare it to having a '67 Mustang ... driving along one day with your spouse and you lose control and wrap it around a tree. You both have to go through extensive physical therapy ... you heal, but you are different, both might be a bit scared of getting back into that car again ... however its not the same ol '67 .. its a new 2015 .. you long for that old '67 but its gone, still a great car .. but this 2015 has so much potential, a chance for new memories to be made .... getting in and back on the road seems to be the tricky part right now. [/quote]

Originally Posted By: AJM

Forgiving both of you for your part? Forgiving you? Sounds like it still needs to be done as part of this.

And I think you have a good perspective, for what it's worth. And fantastic advice to navigate. But keep in mind no matter what happens you'll need to forgive you and her. That's unavoidable for Cali 2.0 and in his world of faith. While you're thinking about things, keep in mind what you've been forgiven for. Forget the rest for now. Forgive you. Clear that off your plate of things to do, and then tackle the next item.

And keep an eye on your S. Sounds like he benefits from your reassurances and being able to articulate what he's feeling. That's absolutely platinum in all of this. Don't lose sight of that.

And don't be too hard on yourself overall. It's not easy surfing these waves. If anyone can do it though, it's you. smile

AJ


Wise words as always AJ ... thank you. Yeah I think I still have some of that hindsight 20/20 guilt stuff, I have owned my share, That Fixer in me still is convinced I could have done better and maybe she would not have ever went so far off the tracks, not been hurt to the extent she has ... I know I know .. this would have happened anyways, but that is still there and still something I am working on dealing with little by little.

And right now .. M and W are not my top concern .. S is. Even more so as it seems he is acting out with W quite a bit, I am torn between letting them have it out .. .or gently nudging and getting S into IC.


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Little update

W TM this morning that S was being difficult, again not wanting to get up, go to school, bad mood .. etc. She asked me via TM "How can we change that?" I replied that she should try a new approach, try to make things fun. S shared how she can be quite bossy .. I get that .. she is that way .. but I do think there are some other thaings at play here, I do think S has issues with W, trust, the fact he knows about OM and I am not so sure that has been put to rest for him ... I think W feels she hid it well enough ... though she did'nt... that she should not have to earn S's trust nor work on the R between them. She then asks me what I think 'we' should do and its a tough spot to be in. Lately she has been using the "I want you to take the initiative, be a man, I always had to do everything in our M, its your turn" type approaches ... while there is some truth to all this I do not think she truly wants me to take charge as when I do those decisions seem to be second guessed and disguarded the moment I do them.

I called her to discuss this .. she thinks she needs to resort to spanking him, I told her I was born and raised into that kind of child upbringing but I honestly do not think that would help the issue, if anything I felt it would only drive a bigger wedge into the R between them. I struggle here, I do not feel its my job to fix the R between S and W, however when she says something like that I feel I must voice my opinion and protect S, again she senses that and feels its her against S and I.

So the call ended with her hanging up on me, a few mild spew TM later .. I have not responded at all nor intend to, my boundary is she will not treat me like crap as she did .. .especially over a situation she created ... expects me to clean it up and do all the work. No thanks .. I will just focus on work and the rainy day we have here ... nice and different, never thought I would enjoy a cloudy rainy day as much as I have today.

So ... With S I do think IC would be good for him, but I am concerned at the continued erosion of the R between him and W. She is very difficult lately, like she tries to sabotage everything just to make sure she is bitter and alone, only to find herself alone, become humble and cry for help ... rinse and repeat. She really needs help but will not get it for herself, its truly a shame but there is nothing I can do, nor force on her.


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Hmm, I am not going to say that I disagree with AJ because I honestly cannot remember a time when I have.

I am going to say that I feel that forgiveness was for me. I have no idea if my xh knows I have, although I think he may.

For me, it was not about him asking for it. Didnt matter to me whether he did or not. I was still going to do what I knew in my heart was the best thing for me. It was to allow me to move forward, to let go of the bad feelings and to open my heart.

My xh never asked for it and that is ok. That's for him to figure out. As I have written before, it allowed me to let go of expecting something different.

I worked towards it by remembering he was in crisis and remembering that he did the best he could. He loved me once a great deal in the best way he knew how. Forgiving him honored that relationship.

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Reconnection is fuuuuunnnn...um,not!!! smile

Yea, fine line you walk here, Luke, yea?

First of all, yep, on the boundaries of being treated disrespectfully.

Second, I really think IC would be a great thing for your son. In fact, really necessary.

As far as getting in the middle of their relationship, nope, not a good thing at all.

When he is with her, she has to figure it out. You jumped in with solutions. Gotta turn that around. Listen, validate, allow her to figure it out. Not your job, man.

Although with the spanking issue, I dont blame you. That does not solve anything and only serves to erode their self confidence.

You can hop off the ride when you need to, Luke.

I feel for you, my friend. This is really hard.

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That's a tough one with your S. Mine was giving H a hard time with packing his lunches. H asked some ideas from me, which I gave. But I also talked to S about helping daddy with lunch ideas and reminded him that packing lunches was new for daddy, that he may need some help.

The need to coparent is necessary, no matter which direction this goes. IMO, it wouldn't hurt to talk with S, find out why he is giving mom a hard time in the mornings, and encourage him to follow her rules. It helped me to look up information on co- parenting. It's tough on the kids to be in 2 different environments with 2 different rules. It's important S knows you are united as parents to him and that you back W with the rules in her house.

Good luck smile


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Originally Posted By: mleigh4
That's a tough one with your S. Mine was giving H a hard time with packing his lunches. H asked some ideas from me, which I gave. But I also talked to S about helping daddy with lunch ideas and reminded him that packing lunches was new for daddy, that he may need some help.

The need to coparent is necessary, no matter which direction this goes. IMO, it wouldn't hurt to talk with S, find out why he is giving mom a hard time in the mornings, and encourage him to follow her rules. It helped me to look up information on co- parenting. It's tough on the kids to be in 2 different environments with 2 different rules. It's important S knows you are united as parents to him and that you back W with the rules in her house.

Good luck smile


I think that is the issue .. 2 totally different parenting styles.

For example:
My Place: Mornings S and I wake at the same time, normally this is done via tickle ... making sure he is up and might be wrestle match or whatever I need to do to get him out of bed ... he knows its coming and 'dreads' it but is laughing the whole time. He knows there is no TV, no breakfast...no nothing... until he has brushed his teeth, combed his hair and dressed. Then Breakfast, once he has eaten then he can watch TV until it is time for us to go. Lately he wakes before the alarm, and has been dressed eating a bowl of cereal just as I am waking up to go wake him, I told him how proud I was and made a big deal about it .. this has happened every day since making getting out the door so easy.

Her Place: According to W and S...She wakes, will go in his room and tell him to get up, will have to continue to do this until he finally wakes up. He brushes then watches TV as he eats breakfast, W will get frustrated/stressed as time is running out and he still needs to get dressed. They finally are ready and according to W are constantly scrambling to get out the door on time and to school without a tardy.

I can see S's frustration and not wanting to go to school with mornings starting out that way, I can also see W's frustration and the stress from always having to stay on S to get going .. however I have voiced several times I do not allow any distractions till everything is done .. even with chores, once everything is done .. then sure lets have fun, just MY way .. not that its right or wrong .. nor is hers, but I'm not the one frustrated with S either. Again ... I do think S has some issues with W and the MLC fallout, but I can not really bring that up nor want to .. was hoping W gets it and would start rebuilding that R between her and S but seems to want me involved on that ... no thanks.

I have contacted the Mental Heath Care through the insurance and they sent me 40 or so therapists in the area .. now time to make some calls and get one scheduled on one of the 'free' nights ... not many of those anymore...lol


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Yeah, Ur, I know what you're saying. I really do.
Quote:
I am going to say that I feel that forgiveness was for me. I have no idea if my xh knows I have, although I think he may.
I differentiate between forgiveness of the past and letting it go. I don't believe you can truly forgive until you're asked to do so. Seems a nit to differentiate those. I let go for me. Oh believe me, I had to else it would have killed me. I just don't carry anger well.
But forgiveness looks different to me. And it's something I was asked specifically not to give.

Release. Yes. Forgive, can't be done in my opinion. One is for me and me alone and the other is for her.

Maybe semantics, or maybe I am missing something.

Cali, for your son? He's *supposed* to test his parents. At least, that's how it's been done for generations upon generations. He's not likely to do it differently.
A young man who is angry? Sure. A young man who can smell guilt and can take advantage of it to "punish" his mom? Say it ain't so. A young man who is scared and misses his mom and is hurt and will take "control"?

A therapist might be helpful for him, but choose carefully. They are not all the same. And your W is the one that needs it to regain her confidence etc. Or gain it as the case may be. He'll assert his dominance until he finishes collecting his pound of flesh and until he's satisfied she's his "mom" and has his back. No amount of counselling will change that, amigo. Not for him anyway. He's got too much invested and he's too smart.

AJ


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Originally Posted By: AJM
Yeah, Ur, I know what you're saying. I really do.
Quote:
I am going to say that I feel that forgiveness was for me. I have no idea if my xh knows I have, although I think he may.
I differentiate between forgiveness of the past and letting it go. I don't believe you can truly forgive until you're asked to do so. Seems a nit to differentiate those. I let go for me. Oh believe me, I had to else it would have killed me. I just don't carry anger well.
But forgiveness looks different to me. And it's something I was asked specifically not to give.

Release. Yes. Forgive, can't be done in my opinion. One is for me and me alone and the other is for her.

Maybe semantics, or maybe I am missing something.

Cali, for your son? He's *supposed* to test his parents. At least, that's how it's been done for generations upon generations. He's not likely to do it differently.
A young man who is angry? Sure. A young man who can smell guilt and can take advantage of it to "punish" his mom? Say it ain't so. A young man who is scared and misses his mom and is hurt and will take "control"?

A therapist might be helpful for him, but choose carefully. They are not all the same. And your W is the one that needs it to regain her confidence etc. Or gain it as the case may be. He'll assert his dominance until he finishes collecting his pound of flesh and until he's satisfied she's his "mom" and has his back. No amount of counselling will change that, amigo. Not for him anyway. He's got too much invested and he's too smart.

AJ


AJ .. I could not agree with ^^^ more .. all of it.

I thought I was the only one who felt there was a difference ... well .. call it a split in forgiveness .. untill reading how you described it I just did not know how to explain myself. I think you are on to something there .. I get it anyways.

As far as my S ... again spot on .. now IC might be good for him, but this issue, its not going to be resolved with counseling I feel ... I agree, he will test have his way and pull on the guilt strings to keep doing as he will. Funny just last night we were talking about something and I caught him fibbing to me, he was stubborn about it and I jokingly said a phrase my father used to use on me so often when I was young .. I nearly forgot it till this happened ... "Bullchit a baker you get a bun, Bullchit ol Dad and you ain't gonna get none" ... S looked shocked at me, one just becuase of the curse, but two because he realized I was not falling for it. HE knows he can not get away with anything with me, I do not scold him ... because I rarely have to ... I have firm boundaries, he knows what they are, and everything is in place .. he gets me, I get him .. all good. W needs to figure that out ... all her .. not my circus not my monkeys.


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AJ, I hope one day you and I get to sit down and talk. You always make me think.

Ok, so I get what you are saying. I had to go and look up the definition of forgiveness. It is: “To stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake. To give up resentment of or claim for requital. To cease to feel resentment against or stop wanting to punish”.

I looked further and came upon this: The word “forgive” means to wipe the slate clean, to pardon, to cancel a debt. When we wrong someone, we seek his or her forgiveness in order for the relationship to be restored. It is important to remember that forgiveness is not granted because a person deserves to be forgiven. Instead, it is an act of love, mercy, and grace.

So, thank you for getting me to think. I still believe that you can forgive someone without them asking for it, though. smile

And Luke, yea your son is testing your wife. Some of that is normal stuff for a kid his age, some as a result of this.

I did not mean to imply that IC was because of his behavior. I do think that this has affected him and that being able to speak with someone neutral without worrying about hurting yours or his mom's feelings is a good thing.

You do have to find the right person or it could do more harm then good.

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Just saw the last couple of posts. And... what about when they apologize with sincerity and remorse... only to do it again?

I was working on forgiveness... first without the apology, got the apology, and... you know the rest...

I just feel like I need to turn over my hands and just drop it. Not in anger. Just in letting go.

Hi Cali. Sorry to hijack. I have been trying to keep up... but it has been hard for a few reasons. I have wanted to post to you by feel... well, first you are doing an amazing job, and bc... I feel so much of what you are dealing with. I hesitate bc, well.. things didn't work out for me so well, so who am I?? (but I've learned)... and sometimes it hits so close to home- things that are still pretty raw.

Anyway, I'm rooting for you, Cali! I think you are amazing. I've been thinking about what you are going through, and believe me, I know how difficult and scary it can be. But, you have so much strength, I know you will be great. Keep on keepin on!

Again, sorry to hijack!

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Now you guys have me thinking... I can let things go, but I am horrible at forgiving. And I now see the difference. They are not the same thing. Can you move forward in an R without forgiveness? That is my question, and fear, for myself. I am not so sure that is possible.

Cali, I once got a post to try the forgiveness challenge. It's a 30 day program all online. It may be worth checking out.

As far as the parenting, my H and I have extremely different parenting styles. The scary part is, I have the same type of mornings as your wife!! Lol. Except wake up time is fun because it's me, dog and cat that do it with lots of kisses! But seriously, she will need to figure it out (just like me!) But I don't think it would hurt to talk to S about it and encourage him to help mom out. Hopefully she would do the same for you smile

.......no eating breakfast while watching tv???? Is that what I am doing wrong?? I can't even imagine cereal without cartoons....:)


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Hi - the forgiveness thing is both tricky, and complicated. and in addition I think we sometimes delude ourselves about it because we get the message that anger is 'bad' and forgiveness is 'good'.

I also think it is quite a bit different for everyone here.

In my case I got quite bent out of shape by the advice to forgive and not be angry. A period of being angry and unforgiving propelled me forward out of a shock and traumatized grief. But I agree it is a self destructive and arid place to stay for long

t is more like the train leaving the station than the station leaving the train. I just don't feel angry any more, and I have 'forgiven' my xh, in that I am pleasant and genuinely wish him well.

However, their journey is their own, and actions speak louder than words. If my xh is ever truly sorry (as opposed to saying sorry) for the hurt and pain that his choices caused to others (not just me) then like a reformed addict he will try and make amends for the harm done. My happiness doesn't depend on this however, nor does my having some sort of friendship with him, which benefits us both, I believe.

As our intense feelings disengage (mainly time, and quite a lot of effort, but you can't force it - just encourage the feelings to flourish) it becomes easier to let it all go - wash away, and we are left with what we had - a great love for a deeply flawed person. But without our own injured feelings.

As always with MLC it is hard to determine the extent to which we hold them accountable - I believe it is a type of breakdown. Why else would someone destroy their relationships and very often their career? I don't think my xh chose this, but I do think he could have gotten treatment at some point. And it would be nice if he stopped blaming others . . . . grin

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I agree...forgiveness will come in its own time and each and every person will deal w/the anger and forgiveness in their own way.

It took me 3 long years to get over the anger of what my xh did. After the divorce papers were signed, etc., it took me another 6 months to mellow out and eventually the anger slowly subsided to the point that I wasn't angry any longer. The anger spurred me on to do what I needed to do to protect the assets, refinance my home and remove my xh's name from everything that I was tied to.

Forgiveness will not happen over night, it will be a gradual move from anger to a slow boil to forgiveness. When you do reach forgiveness, you will come to realize that what sane, rational individual would just walk away from all that he/she had? It's an emotional breakdown and to watch them spiral downward is difficult. Sure, we think of karma, and what goes around, comes around...but to actually watch them play out that "one more time" in the past is difficult because we know what it cost them to go back in time. It cost them their homes, spouses/companions, their children, finances and reputations. If they come out of the crisis, it will be very difficult for them to attempt to repair the damage and in some cases, they won't remember saying or doing certain things. It's very sad. However, by the time this happens we will have moved on and discovered that there is life after MLC.

So, please do not try to rush your process of mourning. Take each day as it comes and one day, you will wake up and that anger will be gone to the point of nothing he/she says or does will get under your skin like it does now. It will just be a blip on the radar.

Be kind to yourselves at this time. You are human and your emotions are running at an all time high right now because your journey has either just begun or you are dealing w/your MLCer over finances, visitation, etc. Step back and breathe! You are going to be fine. How can I say this? Because you are strong, independent people who care about life and want what is best for your family and for you.

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Ur, I hope we get to talk as well, one of these days. I also hope there's a tasty adult beverage of some sort nearby smile

Forgiveness
forgive (v.) Old English forgiefan "give, grant, allow; remit (a debt), pardon (an offense)," also "give up" and "give in marriage" (past tense forgeaf, past participle forgifen); from for-, here probably "completely," + giefan "give" (see give (v.)).

The sense of "to give up desire or power to punish" (late Old English) is from use of such a compound as a Germanic loan-translation of Vulgar Latin *perdonare (Old Saxon fargeban, Dutch vergeven, German vergeben "to forgive," Gothic fragiban "to grant;" and see pardon (n.)). Related: Forgave; forgiven; forgiving.

So there is some concept in that idea of forgiving without their asking or permission. If you go with that etymology.

What we're doing is searching for the right description here.

Giving up the anger and desire to punish? Heck, by that definition I've forgiven my ex years ago. But my definition includes the restoration of *a* relationship of some sort. That's where true, deep forgiveness occurs from what I've seen and experienced.

Karma- (in Hinduism and Buddhism) the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.

Karma does NOT sound like forgiveness to me. Sounds like an explanation why something happens and is often used as a "see, karma happens and that's why you fell down the stairs. You deserved it for your past transgressions." That's judgmental in my opinion. Who am I to judge your past behaviors except in terms of how they affected me and as an indication of future treatment? Enter the possibility of forgiveness for imperfect people.

In my experience I've seen no evidence of anyone truly forgiving the wrongs done to them until and unless they are asked for that forgiveness. Admittedly, I haven't seen everything.

Letting go of the hurt, pain, and desire to punish? I see that as a worthy goal to attain. It was difficult to get there to be sure. Why would you want to hang on to that junk in your life? But I can't get all the way to calling it forgiveness if the other person doesn't want it and doesn't ask for it and doesn't want some sort of restored relationship. It's something else at that point. i.e. there's still a debt being held and/or you simply cancel it and never have anything to do with them again. I can't see an in-between.

The idea that it happens over and over after truly asking? The question first has to be answered, "Did they truly want forgiveness?" If so, I fall back to my faith. I ask for forgiveness for the same things often. I desire that relationship and want the forgiveness so there is nothing between us. At some point you may get to the place where you hear the forgiveness request and have no reaction at all. You may just decide you are not willing to continue the relationship. i.e. you're not willing to forgive (cancel the debt) any longer. Or you may realize they are human and make mistakes and want *a* relationship with you of some sort, free of the past hurts. Even if they caused them.


Tasty beverages help to really tease out the details of such thoughts. Not sure why that is, but it seems to make one more philosophical or something. smile

Ah Saturday mornings...


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Cal,

I think the journey through the anger to the other side of peace and serenity with all that went down when a spouse is abandoned by the other is deeply personal and unique.

How YOU get to the serenity is influenced by so many, many things...for instance, in my case, I'm influenced by how badly my kids have been treated...that brings up an anger issue in itself. I see my kids being left with a harsh legacy of being abandoned by their father and I know they will carry this burden for the rest of their lives. That makes me so angry I could spit. I know because my father and grandfather did the same thing. I know the pain. So, in my case, I am learning to find acceptance with all three of these men, not just the one and I'm learning that--when my spouse sets me off--often I'm feeling unexpressed anger from all those rejections. I would suggest you consider what other rejections/unfairnesses you have experienced that come up when you feel angry-things you maybe never made peace with in the past.

I believe gender plays a part. I'm a woman who was raised to be polite and smile no matter what abominations were happening around me or to me. I learned early to keep my mouth shut and look pretty even when I was being treated poorly. My mother, a southern belle, still shudders a bit if she hears that I spoke up for myself--even when it's appropriate and contained. So, in my case, I have 46 years of pent up frustration from "being nice" when maybe it would have been healthier for me to express my anger. I believe, in my case, my spouse, in his mental breakdown, often sets off the powder keg without understanding a thing about what he's doing. I explode.

I recently read an article that cited a study where individuals who swore frequently and expressed their anger were much healthier, physically, and lived longer than those who didn't.

I have, fairly consistently, unloaded on my spouse throughout our marriage and unmarriage--sometimes inappropriately--often inappropriately. The jury is still out, for me, on whether this was good for me or not. I honestly don't know yet.

I think I tend to blow when I realize I've been carrying his burden again and tending to this his responsibilities, etc... without giving myself a break. In other words, when I deplete myself trying to manage all the feelings/responsibilities/pain/grief/financial issues...etc, etc, etc...and it hits me hard..."WTF! Why am I doing all this?? You rat-bastard?!"

I'm on the fence with this one. I think the forum tends to get a little too warm and fuzzy sometimes with anger--especially with women. I'm still not convinced it's a bad thing to give this frustration back to the person who gave it to you...Obviously, how you go about it is the issue. IDK.

Still, I can see how using the anger to train for a marathon or write a book may have been--might be--as I move forward--a better avenue. I've definitely told the rat bastard how I feel :-) He definitely knows I think he's a rat bastard, emotional issues or not.

Plus, I'm very naive with others. I tend to see people at face value. If you tell me you are doing such-and-such or you feel such-and-such...I accept it as truth. Often, I lack the gene or ability to even notice when I'm being treated badly. I may not "get it" until hours, days, months or years after. I approach relationships much like a child and believe people too readily.

For me, this journey has lead me on a path of self-empowerment where I am better able to trust my instincts and my anger.

Ultimately, I think the anger is healthy and a sign that you are valuing yourself enough to see you deserve better. The serenity will come as you heal. For me, it comes in pieces as I move along.

But, in my case, I've had to take each bout of anger very seriously and dig deep when it hits. My spouse has continued to act out in some ways--which I honestly think he is oblivious too--but none-the-less--even after living apart for 3 years, his actions are still impacting my quality of life and that royally pi$$es me off.

More than that, I'm beyond angry that his ignorance to his own issues continues to impact the lives of our kids negatively.

In this case, as each action on his part sets of a healthy response of frustration and anger on my part...I see myself drawing on my inner male who wants to protect and defend my territory...whether it's my kids, my money, my sense of dignity and self-respect.

I draw on my faith quite a bit and I see in the Bible, quite often, where right fought the good fight against wrong and I believe in this strongly...even if they are ignorant to what they do. That doesn't mean I have to sit and accept it or keep my mouth shut.

Honor your anger. Know it comes from a place of healing and allow it to work its way out in whatever healthy way works for you.


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One other thing...I think the forgiveness comes naturally as you move through the stages. I tend to deal with one issue at a time. So, for instance, I feel myself not caring nearly as much about the affair anymore. I've worked throught a good chunk of the hurt/anger about the affair. For today, I can see clearly she is just a slapped-on bandaid for the issues underneath. The forgiveness is around the corner for me on that one. Not that I will forget necessarily or condone...but, I'm seeing it wasn't/isn't about ME. Forgiveness for me, is accepting and making peace with what how I was treated in light of accepting this person as he IS today.

Still, the financial impact and the impact on my kids...that's all very fresh and on the surface. Red hot right now and has been for the past six months.


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Quote:
The forgiveness is around the corner for me on that one. Not that I will forget necessarily or condone...but, I'm seeing it wasn't/isn't about ME. Forgiveness for me, is accepting and making peace with what how I was treated in light of accepting this person as he IS today
Cali's away for the weekend, I'm sure. I guess he'll find his thread blown up when he gets back smile

That's just it, Heather. Is it forgiveness if you remember or "not condone" it? Or is that acceptance?

To me, you're not forgiving the debt. You're healing from the event, but not wiping the slate clean. By definition, that's not really forgiveness as much as acceptance and healing.

Again, semantics to a degree. But one I've struggled with to be sure. And to me, I feel the difference is important. Healing? Sure. Forgiveness, which leads to the really deep down healing? Not so sure. i.e. there's a scar that taints many aspects of life if you don't get to that place, truly.

Personally, I'm getting to a place where I may not trust somebody who hasn't been through tough times of some sort. i.e. been seasoned. I like them anyway, but that deep connection I really want? I don't think it's possible because they don't have that perspective or a tested sense of their values.

That's me though. In this case, Cali's W is somebody who's been tested and seems to be developing. She's way behind in school though she seems to be on the path.

The question that comes up is if Cali (and she and S) can "wipe the slate clean." It can be done. I've seen it in my own family tree with my grandparents. But not an easy road. For that matter, neither is the other direction, right?

So I do think it's an appropriate conversation even if we did hijack his thread to an extent. (Thanks for the graciousness, Cali.)

Anger has its place to be sure. For a time. For a reason. After that, it just becomes bitterness and is no good for anyone. Forgiveness has its place as well. But I don't see it having a place until its asked for. Acceptance is a great place - the sky is blue and the world is a little brighter. I just think that acceptance, while the 5th and supposedly last stage of grief/injury, is really just the second to last stop where possible. The last one takes both parties in most cases.

The confusion sometimes comes up when we talk about dead people that injured us. Psych's will talk about forgiving that parent or family member or person that died years ago and we are still carrying the anger etc.

I think forgiveness is most often the wrong term to use there. Nobody wipes the slate clean from what I've seen. They simply accept that person for what they are, but would still "like" some compensation or evening of the books for the injury or tell themselves how much better they are now because of it and their taking the high road. It's out of their hands. Etc.

It raises a terrible faith quandary if we are asked to forgive and do not. But if we're not asked? That's where I see differences between forgiveness and acceptance.

I agree with you on the anger and admire your approach of one thing at a time. Seems you're digging deeper and deeper. Glad to hear that, Heather. I think it'll be much more valuable as time goes on.

I do also realize that anger exists in that place between expectation and actuality. It seems acceptance is a good release for that anger in that sense (see what I'm saying Cali? As a possible place to look at that road for forgiveness? It's a narrow road, Cali - you may have noticed smile )

AJ


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I guess I'm working towards acceptance then. IDK.

I will transfer some of this over to my thread.

That actually clarifies some things for me. I'm not sure I'm able to forgive in this case. Maybe that's ok? It never occurred to me that this was a choice.

I know, without question, I'm able to accept life for being life and I will be able move past it--seeing how this was God's plan. However, I don't know that I will be able to forgive the person who set these things in motion.

Sorry for the hi-jack Cali, such a hot topic for me right now. Hope you can find something you can use in my post.


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Mr. Bowtie,

Originally Posted By: AJM
In my experience I've seen no evidence of anyone truly forgiving the wrongs done to them until and unless they are asked for that forgiveness. Admittedly, I haven't seen everything.


It seems to me that you are stuck/hung up on the 'requirement' that true forgiveness equates to being asked for it. Why is that for you? I am just trying to understand your POV here.

People have done hurtful and stupid things to me at times throughout my life. I have forgiven them ...given freely without being asked for it. I do this because it is FOR ME in the way that I do not carry anger and resentment in me for those events.

Remorse and forgiveness are two separate things.

It seems to me that you are looking for remorse from the offending party before you are able to dole out forgiveness, Mr. Bow Tie. Am I warm here? Hot or cold?

Originally Posted By: AJM
Forgiveness has its place as well. But I don't see it having a place until its asked for.


Because you're looking for remorse here and I think it is an area of getting the upper hand or superiority in having the offending party ASK YOU for it. Why would you want that? That seems strike to me as some type of moral vengeance that supposedly balances out things.

All for what to end? Does the end justify the means??!!


To me, forgiveness does not require the participation of two parties to achieve it. It is done for the personal growth of the Self. Nothing more, nothing less.

Granted, asking for it would be the cherry on the top of the sundae. Alas...we cannot always have that delicious cherry.


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Hey Luke...I was going to say sorry about this, but, it's all too good, so, I will say thank you. What a wonderful discussion.

AJ, you had me at adult tasty beverage. LOL! smile.

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I still check in, I just don't post ... Much
Lol

I have yet to read all this .... But I think it's absolutely wonderful when good deep discussions over such an important topic take place ... I also do not think hijacks are possible nor an issue, we are all here to learn and grow, who cares what thread that happens on ya know?

I will most likely read and re read and add my typical novel Monday ... You all are amazing, hope you are enjoying your weekend!!


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That's funny stuff, Luke...about you not posting much. LOL!

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I am loving this topic and discussion, it is a point we all have to face, no matter what the turn out is. It is also very clear that we have our own views of forgiveness and what it will take for us to achieve that, if we can.

For me, I believe it begins with acceptance, but true forgiveness will take a very long time for me. Personal issues or not, to forgive my H for ripping our family apart so he can have time alone to figure himself out, I can't fathom anything more selfish. However, I have accepted it and used my anger to push me forward.

Thanks to all for sharing your own thoughts. I don't think there is any right or wrong, black or white in this matter. I believe it is a unique step for each of us.

Cali, you seem to be taking each step with an open mind and an honesty that I so admire.

I would love to hear from reconciled posters on where they stand with their level of forgiveness? Did they truly forgive, or did they decide to accept that what happened can't be changed, that they prefer to move forward from it and to rebuild on a stronger foundation? My H is not banging down my door to come back to me. But I figure that if we ever find our way back to each other, I would need some very serious assurance that he was coming back for me and not just because his life adventure he decided to take didn't quite pan out the way he thought. So Cali, I can understand why you are guarded and gun shy. I think it just another super fun smile process to work through on our path.

I have so much faith in you that you will work your way through this. Especially with the wise input on here. The posts on here are so inspiring in getting us thinking and working.


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Wonka, I have to say you're a bit cold on this one.
Quote:
It seems to me that you are stuck/hung up on the 'requirement' that true forgiveness equates to being asked for it. Why is that for you? I am just trying to understand your POV here.

People have done hurtful and stupid things to me at times throughout my life. I have forgiven them ...given freely without being asked for it. I do this because it is FOR ME in the way that I do not carry anger and resentment in me for those events.

Remorse and forgiveness are two separate things.

It seems to me that you are looking for remorse from the offending party before you are able to dole out forgiveness, Mr. Bow Tie. Am I warm here? Hot or cold?
Not carrying anger nor resentment doesn't require forgiveness. It does require acceptance of what happened and a decision to not carry that anger and resentment.

But to me, forgiveness does require the concept of repentance. i.e. "I recognize I did you wrong, and I am deciding I won't continue to do that to you. Can we wipe the slate clean and begin anew?" When I say begin, I mean our new relationship, which may be close to nothing, won't carry that baggage over. It's forgotten as if it never happened.

Because it needs to be as if it never happened, can you see why it requires two people and not just one, or am I missing it still?

I can accept that you wronged me, treated me poorly, maliciously did x,y,z toward me etc. I can accept that you're human. I can accept that you're happy you did them and don't want to change anything about what you did toward me. That's your world and one you live in. I have no reason to forgive you of the offense(s). None. I don't need to be angry about it just as I am not angry when a small child bumps into me and spills his drink on my leg. I'm not angry, although I don't particularly like it nor seek out opportunities to be around that child while they have a drink in their hands and aren't tied to a chair or their parents smile i.e. I haven't forgotten and I haven't forgiven in the sense that I'm not looking to continue a relationship with a child that's done that. No anger, but no relationship.

And I think the relationship, of some sort, is key to forgiveness. Otherwise, it's cheap forgiveness.

But I don't have a live a bitter, angry, cold life of untrusting solitude either. I don't have to forgive a person to avoid that.

In my mind, forgiveness is not what's needed to heal. Rather, acceptance, peace, and lack of emotions around the acts and person are attainable and much sought after (much like the analogy of the child who did what he did, whether maliciously or not; still a child.) But wiping the slate clean when it wasn't asked for? When it was flaunted as the thing to do? When it was done with intent and malice aforethought?

Nope. Not appropriate.

I don't think it appropriate to extract a pound of flesh for the wrongs either. That's really not the point and provides no value unless starring in an action movie where vengeance is needed for the plot thickener. Otherwise, incredibly limited value in my view. I haven't always "felt" that way though. There was a time I would have been more than happy to run my ex over with her own car, shoot her, push her off a cliff and then do it again. Just how I felt, but not what I believe. Eventually, feelings do catch up with what one believes, thankfully.

When genuinely asked for (not as a manipulative tactic?)
Certainly needs to be done. I.e wipe the slate clean and never speak of it again (both sides). That would be forgiveness if you asked me and the difference.


Forgiveness. Takes two as far as I'm concerned. The rest can be done without it and one can still lead a great life without bitterness, nor anger toward another. Acceptance + choice allows one to say, "I know what you did, and I choose not to retaliate nor talk about it nor carry the burden of your choices in my heart" - without forgiveness.

Dunno. Maybe I'm missing something in the bigger picture. I'll keep stepping... smile

AJ


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Holy Shid AJ...YOU just made this do-able for me. I CAN DO THIS ^^^

Acceptance + CHOICE...There's what I've needed to hear. I NEED to feel the CHOICE in the matter because I've had too many things done TOO me without my consent.

This last step is MINE do handle in a way that works for ME. No one else.

Thanks for that.


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Thank you, Mr. Bowtie, for explaining your POV.

This part is where I think differently from you:

Originally Posted By: AJM
But to me, forgiveness does require the concept of repentance. i.e. "I recognize I did you wrong, and I am deciding I won't continue to do that to you. Can we wipe the slate clean and begin anew?" When I say begin, I mean our new relationship, which may be close to nothing, won't carry that baggage over. It's forgotten as if it never happened.


Repentance suggests guilt. That is my interpretation from my own perch. What about situations where it is not possible such as the person with Alzheimer's, person who has passed on, dies in an accident, or some such event. What says you?

Forgiveness doesn't mean that everything's forgotten as if it never happened nor can the relationship be renewed as in a having a clean slate because one just doesn't ERASE the incident or events from one's past. How can that be ever possible??!! Plus the baggage will always be in the background.

It is called the baggage of memory that is filed away. One does not forget being lied to, being hurt, being betrayed, etc. How can one start with a clean slate when there's been so much damage?

Instead, in my mind, forgiveness means that ONE makes a very conscious decision not to be a hostage to the hurt/pain/betrayal. I don't need for my late father to apologize to me for his sheer stupidity for his affairs. I forgive him because he was a flawed human being and I loved him unconditionally. I never once called him "stupid" or made him feel bad for his OWs.

Nor would one make a former alcoholic feel guilty for his/her struggles. I do not think the concept of repentance is a requirement for forgiveness.

Originally Posted By: AJM
Because it needs to be as if it never happened, can you see why it requires two people and not just one, or am I missing it still?


Hello Sherlock...it will never ever bye as "if it never happened" because it is seared in the memory of the injured party. What about the guy who pulled a wedgie back in high school? Does he need to come back to you 40+ years on to repent in order to receive forgiveness from you?

I think and believe that true and sincere forgiveness is a sacred gift that one person is ABLE to freely give to the offender that sets both of the parties free of the event.

In my view, one who does not forgive the other person is still tied/attached to the offender. The ties are through one's emotional reactions to the offender or event.

Unforgiveness makes one still attached to the event/offender.

I have read of instances of the offender asking for repentance and YET does not receive the gift of forgiveness from the injured party. As you say, two parties were at play here. The concept of repentance was addressed right there. What then?

Forgiveness can either be done solo or with all parties involved.

What I think are two very important distinctions to consider here:

repentance and making amends

A whole different ball of wax! smile




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I get ya Wonka. I hear exactly what you're saying and I do believe that your argument is both powerful and says what I'm saying: there cannot be "forgiveness" if it's seared into the memory forever. That right there is holding onto the baggage of the emotions, the event, and all that goes with it. Even if just by a thread and even if you feel good about it. Still not forgiveness at that point. That's acceptance of one another and of the event as painful. Acceptance of letting go of the pain of that event. Acceptance of not being ok with it and forgetting it. And choosing to not seek revenge (or justice in most people's POV.) That's similar, but that's not forgiveness. By forgiving somebody of what they "owe" you, I don't hold onto that emotion nor the event. I let it go. Your account is zero balance. Whatever you do from this point forward, you do with a new account. I won't later, if you hurt me, bring back the former event and compound it with the new offense.

I've seen those that have reached that point, together. And I've seen many that have chosen to accept and chosen to not retaliate nor carry the emotions and burdens - they simply gave that back and walked away. But I have yet to see forgiveness when it is only one-sided.

Quote:
Repentance suggests guilt. That is my interpretation from my own perch. What about situations where it is not possible such as the person with Alzheimer's, person who has passed on, dies in an accident, or some such event. What says you?

Forgiveness doesn't mean that everything's forgotten as if it never happened nor can the relationship be renewed as in a having a clean slate because one just doesn't ERASE the incident or events from one's past. How can that be ever possible??!! Plus the baggage will always be in the background.

It is called the baggage of memory that is filed away. One does not forget being lied to, being hurt, being betrayed, etc. How can one start with a clean slate when there's been so much damage?

Instead, in my mind, forgiveness means that ONE makes a very conscious decision not to be a hostage to the hurt/pain/betrayal. I don't need for my late father to apologize to me for his sheer stupidity for his affairs. I forgive him because he was a flawed human being and I loved him unconditionally. I never once called him "stupid" or made him feel bad for his OWs.
Repentance does not suggest guilt in my mind. It suggests going another direction. "More commonly the translation is "turn" or "return"" There are many common definitions that do allude to it meaning to come crawling back, but I suggest that's a fairly recent interpretation vs. the original concept. I intended for it in the original concept and chose that word just as a familiar word. Seems it caused confusion in the intent though, because I certainly didn't assume guilt is required. Simply to turn another direction away from hurting a person intentionally.

As for the alcoholic analogy. I can only imagine the pain of dealing with that. My grandfather was a mean drunk. My father lived with that and barely spoke about it. I can only imagine.

And it must be even more painful to be told to be free of that person you must "forgive" them. Can you? I don't think so. I don't think you can forget about the harm caused. I think you can accept them for the imperfect person they were and love them and care for them and be at peace with that. I think you can give back the anger and frustration or even shunt that to ground somehow. But forgive? I have yet to see that. I've seen the other with great effect. I've seen many freed from a lifetime of pain, shame and regret by choosing to accept the other, no gone person and choosing to love them unconditionally. I just haven't seen them forget the debt without being asked about it.

In my own family, I've seen the pain inflicted by grandmother's plans to have an affair and run away when my mom was a teen. My grandfather forgave after he was asked to and after many years. Never brought it up again, and it didn't come out in any shape or way. They lived together for 75 years, so I'm sure they had a few chances and a few times to throw mud. My mother didn't forgive her mom. She tolerated. She accepted. She chose not to punish her mother outwardly. But it was there in the background like a ghost waiting to haunt. She never brought it up either, except now and again to my father (a safe place). He told me about it years later after my mother died and my grandmother was senile etc.

It's a difference - forgiveness requires two people in my mind. Acceptance + choice require just the one person to action it.
Repentance, in it's original intent, it more about going another direction or to turn away from what you were previously doing. It has nothing to do with guilt per se. That's a later interpretation from what I've seen and implies one can atone for one's wrongs.

That's a fallacy as well.

When you ask for forgiveness from somebody you are giving the power to somebody else to decide. You are trusting the person previously thought to be your enemy. You are risking that somebody else won't, as you described, forgive you but instead demand retribution and justice. That's the premise for 1,000 year wars and gang-land violence and is certainly part of natural man's inclination. An eye for an eye kind of thing, right? It's what our carnal self wants (read, "ego" vs. "carnal self" and it makes more sense to me in a Freudian sort of way. smile )

I also don't think forgiveness requires making amends. That's a different kettle of fix altogether wink It's not as if you can murder somebody's family, bring them a million dollars and with a little jiggery-pokery make everything ok. You can ask for forgiveness, but that's about it in my mind. You can certainly try to make amends. That's a nice thing to do. But I doubt seriously you can make enough amends to replace somebody's family you brutally murdered and attain (or purchase) forgiveness.

In short, I disagree with this:
Quote:
Forgiveness can either be done solo or with all parties involved.
but I do recognize that we have a deficit in our language for this type of stuff. Perhaps we've lost some things over the years to adequately describe the concepts. In our 20th century "progressive" minds, we my have lost some of the meaning of the words by blending them into something else.

Maybe.

AJ


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Originally Posted By: AJM
I get ya Wonka. I hear exactly what you're saying and I do believe that your argument is both powerful and says what I'm saying: there cannot be "forgiveness" if it's seared into the memory forever.


If this is the case ... I am not sure I have ever forgiven in my life even when I thought I had.

I read this thread a couple times via the phone and it really had me thinking. I am not so sure I will ever forget this MLC phase, how could I .. its been honestly the toughest 3-4 years of my life. Even now, its still fresh, the pain and hurt .... do I want payback?, revenge?, her to suffer? ... no I really do not. Am I still hurting .. absolutely .. what has taken me by surprise is the new intensity of this hurt and pain that flooded back as W tries to reconnect with me, and no .. she has not made things 'right' but then again .. how could she possibly do that?
Similar to the story that ran last week, (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/13/mother-hugs-daughters-killer_n_5490692.html) teenage boy took a gun to school on the bus and accidentally shot this woman's daughter, at first they went after this kid and then the mother had a change of heart, the kid now is going to go on a educational tour with this woman and speak about the incident .. that is his penance ... does it even come close to payback .. no, but its not possible for him nor anyone to bring back that woman's daughter.
This woman will never forget this, is there no hope for forgiveness? I am not sure ... I think the best we can do as humans is to empty our heart of the anger, accept what happened is what happened, and make a conscious effort to move forward without this emotional baggage weighing us down like an anchor. I admittedly am not there yet .. the hurt has come back stronger than I was expecting ... seemed it was easy to chalk up the end of my M to the MLC and the A, pick up my brokenness and move on, its a different approach when faced with the possibility of having to pull down the same walls that used to protect in order to be open to being vulnerable again.


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SO as typical ... the Weekend Update.

Not a big moving weekend. W went up north to her Class reunion, she had S Sat morning and we ended up meeting for lunch, as has been the issue lately something seemed off with S. W got up to grab some soup so I took the chance to talk to S and find out what was wrong... he shared that sometimes he felt invisible when we were together as a family. I talked to him about it, validated as he has a point .. seems W and I have been talking alot trying to get through things day by day .. so S is an obvious causality in the conversation field. I sent S off to grab us some ice cream which he quickly became excited about ... took that time to share with W what happened, she actually got it and was very open to changing how we interact when S is around to include him more. That night she drove north and S and I had a man-cave night ... really enjoyed our time together.

Sunday morning S and I went to church, did some grocery shopping and went back to my place .. .he played a bit while I cleaned ... GAL .. lol. W TM asking if I wanted anything from a famous bakery up north .. I told her no thank you ... but she brought back some things anyways. Acts of service is her LL. She called on the drive back ... was a barrage of 20 questions that caught me off guard and started to annoy me a bit, She asked why I was so distant, asked if I was upset she left town ... I told her I was not upset .. she kept on me ... as she does until I finally shared some things I have been dealing with. We talked a bit about it .. she keeps bringing up MC, she feels that is how we will reconnect, improve our communication, save the M. I told her my concerns ... told her I was still not certain OM is out of the picture, I shared I still do not trust her ... then she started to spew until I firmly told her I was not going to be treated that way any longer, then she quickly backed off and apologized.
She shared how she was frustrated and lost as far as what to do, how to 'fix' this ... made me think about all these posts on forgiveness ... how can someone 'fix' the destruction left after a MLC crisis ... they can't. She also shared she is talking to the priest tonight after work, this one surprised me a bit honestly, I did not think she would go through with that.

Thing is ... she is trying, very hard. and I am walled up like Ft Knox, do I want to be this way .. absolutely not, but I am .. I am not right when I am around her lately, the triggers seems to be everywhere at the moment ... billboards remind me of the A, even last night we are watchign a movie together, its time to put S down... he headed off to her bed (our old bed .. same bed her and OM used for the A) and we were going to pray ... I must have had it on my face as W quickly talked S into sleeping in his bed. I had a near anxiety attack thinking .. no way on earth can I pray in that room let alone kneel beside THAT bed ... I did not have to say anything, W seemed to pick up on it but not a word was said. (I had shared about a month ago how her place, the couch, and the bed are serious triggers for me) I have slowly gotten over the place ... and for the most part the couch .. that bed is a big one .. I would just prefer it to be burned.

Anyways I am just struggling here, she shared with me pictures from her reunion, even showed me some old pictures her cousin sent of her grandparents from another country .. she is trying to connect and engage. At this point its hard to argue the MC thing, I think we could remain stuck here if something does not give. OM seems clearly out of the picture as far as I can tell, She told me yesterday she wants her family back, I pointed out there just does not seem to be anything that includes her and I.. she told me I was her family .. me and S. MC might be able to give us/me some tools to use to get past this and communicate better, seemed to be a running theme over the weekend.


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Cali,

Why are you so dead set against MC?! Many people here know that MC is required to get couples to navigate through issues that tore apart a couple and figure out a way forward.

You two just cannot afford to do a DIY marriage recovery. Professionals are needed to aid you two in getting on the same page as a couple. I admire your W's persistence in seeking a counselor...a smart cookie!

It is not longer a case of "D, E, F happens, then we'll see MC." You are not being fair to your wife, to yourself, to the marriage, and to the family by refusing MC.

You two definitely need to heal together..not through a DIY approach. What you two need is a neutral outside party with the appropriate credentials to support you as you navigate through a new marriage that is Mr. and Mrs. Cali 2.0.

Drop your hard-headed approach for the GREATER good: the M and the family deserve it.

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Oh Cali

This is great news!

I concur with Wonka - go for the MC, learn about yourself, your wife and save your FAMILY. The Gottman Institute is suppossedly the best and they have trainied folks just about everywhere - check here to see if there is one in your area. I am sure there is.

http://www.gottmanreferralnetwork.com/

Do you know how lucky you are that your WW wants to try therapy? What I wouldn't give to be in your shoes my friend.


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Originally Posted By: Wonka
Cali,

Why are you so dead set against MC?! Many people here know that MC is required to get couples to navigate through issues that tore apart a couple and figure out a way forward.

You two just cannot afford to do a DIY marriage recovery. Professionals are needed to aid you two in getting on the same page as a couple. I admire your W's persistence in seeking a counselor...a smart cookie!

It is not longer a case of "D, E, F happens, then we'll see MC." You are not being fair to your wife, to yourself, to the marriage, and to the family by refusing MC.

You two definitely need to heal together..not through a DIY approach. What you two need is a neutral outside party with the appropriate credentials to support you as you navigate through a new marriage that is Mr. and Mrs. Cali 2.0.

Drop your hard-headed approach for the GREATER good: the M and the family deserve it.





I was dead set against it because of the pain from the last one ... I wanted to be certain OM is out of the picture We went in May, she had absolutely no interest in saving the M, it was a half hearted 'there I tried' move all the while OM was in the background ... turns out they were both doing the excact same thing so they could be together once all the MC failed). I am starting to really lean towards setting up the appt... I am at a point now I think we really need it if this is going to be fixed, feels like a holding pattern at the moment


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Cali,

Those fears are understandable...however, they are YOURS to own and process. Continuing to hold W hostage against your own fears isn't right at all...especially when she's really asking for MC from a genuine and sincere standpoint. In fact, she's skating on the edge of begging for it. You wouldn't want to have W to have a bad taste in her mouth from her end.

In time, there will be an opportunity for you to bring it ^^ up during one of those MC sessions.

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Originally Posted By: Wonka
Cali,

Those fears are understandable...however, they are YOURS to own and process. Continuing to hold W hostage against your own fears isn't right at all...especially when she's really asking for MC from a genuine and sincere standpoint. In fact, she's skating on the edge of begging for it. You wouldn't want to have W to have a bad taste in her mouth from her end.

In time, there will be an opportunity for you to bring it ^^ up during one of those MC sessions.



We talked about it Sunday, I was holding back just because I was unsure of her intentions .. to be honest this turn around came on rather quickly, part of me felt it was a case of ... "Oh .. the A with OM didn't pan out, let me go back to choice #2 and see if I can salvage that" .. like you said .. MY fears and issues that I had to come to terms with.

The issues that have resurfaced for me I have been giving thought to, are they more issues to handle in IC, or MC ... the more thought I gave them the more I realized its more of the MC type.


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Cali

I agree with the others. Just give it a try and see how it feels. Voice your concerns upfront so the counselor knows where you are coming from. Your fears are very valid and understandable.


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I just want to say one thing to AJ and then I want to give this thread back to Cali.

AJ, you have given me a lot to think about. Thank you for that. Here's what I realized..they are just words...labels, really. We can give them whatever weight we want to. What matters is how one feels. I have no malice for my xh. I know I wish him peace truly. I accept who he is and I am not here to judge him. He has done some horrific things, but, that is on him. So, whatever one wants to call that, I am ok with, because I know what is in my heart and in the end, that is what matters.

Luke, I want you to know that I totally understand your reluctance. You are self protecting and there isnt anything wrong with that. I guess it comes down to what you want. If you want a chance at restoring your marriage, you will need to take the next step.

Honestly, you may get hurt, that's the truth of it. You could also have an amazing marriage one day.

I think it comes down to fear for you. Fear of a lot of things.

I get it.

It is important to find the right person because sometimes therapists cause more harm than good.

You have new tools now, yea? You have been through the worst of it and weathered it.

Sometimes you just have to take a leap of faith and see where you land.

Whatever you decide, you have my support. Always.

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Quote:
What matters is how one feels.
And choices. We can feel one way and choose another if we're not honest. Sometimes it starts with the choice and the feelings come later, no? wink

Cali, Wonka and Ur are right. The fears are yours to conquer. It's understandable, but regardless of what happens, you'll need to face those fears and conquer them. There are no guarantees when it comes to people. There is intent and choice (free will). Your choice is whether or not to face those fears or be ruled by them.

You may have noticed that your W is sincere. It comes through in your posts. You can hide behind the wall and be a slave to the fears or you can choose otherwise and see what you can do to grow. To face your fears.

The bed for example. It's an inanimate object that "represents" your fear and hurt. It's symbolic and one day you may very well take it to field and set it on fire. Or you may choose to sleep on it. Or avoid it altogether. But I cannot imagine you want to look back over your life and realize you were ruled by fear about anything. That doesn't jive with who you have become.

Can we as humans forgive? Yes, Cali we can. It's a narrow path to be sure that many can't walk. It's not natural for us. It's not in our DNA, but we can get to a place where the actions and hurt have no power over us. We can forgive the debt owed and over time, the memory loses it's bite. It fades to nothing. We remember the event at a high level, because it's part of our lives, but we no longer remember the hurt. Like a bad cold in a sense.

We can forgive but it's not our natural self. We can't do it alone. We can't argue our way out of it or rationalize our forgiveness. We can choose and work to make that choice real. We can with the help of the person that harmed us. We can trust again.

A choice. An action. A step in that direction... Fear is not what we were made for either, Cali.

AJ


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Originally Posted By: AJM
[And choices. We can feel one way and choose another if we're not honest. Sometimes it starts with the choice and the feelings come later, no? wink


Yep, AJ, the road to where you need to be can be gotten to in different ways...sometimes feelings drive it, sometimes choices do.

wink

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AJ, uR, Wonka ... yes I completely get it and yeah ... I have known for a bit its fear that holds me back. When this all first went down it was fear of losing W, then it turned into fear of losing my M, fear that OM was better than me, fear I would lose my S .... one by one I have exposed these fears and realized its more me making things up than it is the truth. During this process I uncovered strength I never realized was under the surface all along. Just as with the current wave of emotions I have felt, seems for me I need time to absorb them and dissect what they are, where they are coming from, in a way pulling the wings off the fly one by one.
AJ .. spot on with the bed, the bed itself does not scare me, its the symbolic nature of it, all those things that caused me pain I linked to that bed, the couch, her condo ... little by little I have been better with these things .. the bed is a big one as its symbolic of the ultimate betrayal, and yeah ... a bon fire would be fine, I do not need to set it ablaze myself or anything but I would just prefer it gone vs. having backslides over the next few years set off by an inanimate object.


With all that, I gave things a good deal of thought yesterday, been thinking about it for weeks now actually. W does have a point, and I agree with a few here. As helpful as this place is, and as much as I have learned and grown I am not equipped to do a DIY MC, we do need help to get through this, help to communicate better. So I made the call, found a MC but she was 'full' proving to me I probably found a good one, asked her for any referrals and she gave me another name that was on my list, left a message and hope to hear back from her.

I picked up S from school, turns out he got into trouble and handed me an envelope addressed to W, S told me to read it. It was a letter from him explaining he was caught singing "I'm to sexy for my butt-hole" ... I think I won father of the year as I burst out laughing and then tried to regain my composure as S told me how much trouble he was in.(Catholic school and all) S shared he was terrified of W and her reaction, I told him to relax ... however I did tell him what he said was not appropriate nor was my reaction to it, that we needed to work on his language. I took away TV and games for the week along with a few talks through out the evening on how we needed to remove certain words on and off campus.

Later that night S called W, usual time however no answer. W called back sounded like she was in the car. She explained to me where she was coming from almost to the point where it was important I 'believe' her ... I told her I really was not thinking anything otherwise as she shared over the weekend that she was going to talk to the priest. I talked to her about S, she took it well. She asked if we could talk once she got home and showered.

So ... here is where things got a touch interesting. She told me about her day, at work there is a new boss, she is worried they are going to restructure and she might lose her job. I STFU, listened, validated. Then she talked some about the priest. This one surprised me, the fact she went, then she thanked me as I recommend this specific one (I suggested him but left it up to her if she wanted to go through with it or not) and she told me he and her relate and she wishes that she would have gone to him sooner but told me it would not have been the right time and she was not ready. Then we talked more about S, she started getting upset that S is afraid of her, started her spinning and when she does that she puts words in my mouth and its almost like she ramps up things and has the conversation between her and I all by herself. I became frustrated and we had it out a little bit, I shared that its frustrating she will say something like "Thanks for telling me I'm a chitty mother" when I never said it nor hinted at it but once she verbally says that its like in her mind I actually said it ... rewriting history. Was wild .. once I said this she calmed down and its like a lightbulb went off. She apologized, I was still a bit upset and she said she did not get to tell me what she really wanted to share, so I asked what it was. She said she was so late because she went to the parish center after talking to the priest and picked up paperwork for retrouvaille. I was pretty stunned, I told her that I have been on the fence as she knows about the MC, because fear was holding me back but after thinking about it I told her I made the calls earlier that day for MC because at some point we both will have to take a leap of faith, and it looks like she is doing the same thing, I thanked her.

This morning W TM me "I'm trying to change. Please be patient with me. I'm going to make errors but this time I'm catching myself"

So I have decided to release the fear I have had, the fear of "Is she really committed" and accept she really is trying this time, she seems to be happier when I see her, not that stressed out look she used to have... dare I say pretty, flashes of the girl I knew and loved, combined with this stranger who I must get to know. I now need to relax and allow myself to be myself around her. This is moving in the direction I always wanted, there may still be a chance I have a full happy and rewarding marriage, its on me to accept that, and take a chance on her.

This forgiveness theme that has run pretty strong in this thread, I think uR hit a point, like everything it can mean different things and come in different forms for all of us. Some of us may need to be asked, maybe not. Regardless I have accepted what happened (sure there are times it still burns, but not as much and not as often), being here and learning so much ... knowing I was not the only one in the MLC wasteland helped tremendously at first. It got me up on my feet, then you wonderful people ... vets and fellow noobs who have been/were walking the same walk not only sharing your story, but asking the hard questions, forcing me to face my fears, grow, learn, become better. I am forever in your debt ... first round will no doubt be on me ... with a shot and a chaser ... we can call it the Spew-Bomb...lol. I realized just now when I came here I would look for success stories, looking for hope, regardless if the M works out or not. The true hope is found in the knowledge that we are all going to be ok, better than ok, better than we were before BD, you are looking at Cali2.0 who has his sights on the next upgrade. That magic bullet, its the mirror work ... getting to a place where you reinvent yourself and you know deep down you are going to flourish regardless of your MLC'r, that's where its all at.


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Ohhh a shot and a chaser....I'm in. smile.

Loved reading that post, Luke. Good on you.

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Good for you - I am so very happy for you!


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Cali. I am so happy to read what is happening with you! It really warms my heart, I am happy to hear where you are at, sounds like she is trying smile

I am rooting for you guys and looking forward to hearing about your continuing journey.


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Thank you HD and meligh


Yesterday was fairly quiet. Appears W is busy at work and also trying to line up other jobs in case the rumors prove true and they let her go. I picked up S yesterday, we went and researched turtles at the store, W TM that she needed to work late and asked if its ok that she pick up S a little later. TM like these do sometimes make me think about the past couple years, but its not like I started spinning ... I have been good about this. She could be doing who knows what, or she might be telling the truth and working late... regardless its out of my control, this 'detachment' has helped keep me sane. A bit later she TM that she was leaving ... then again that she was 10 min away. I had S ready to go, even fed him dinner so she was not rushed. She was pretty quick to leave, asked me about my day but I felt that was just small talk .... I am sure she is dealing with a full plate at the moment, the Job thing, her own stuff, she said she was not feeling well again so adding anything else would just be a fight. I feel currently we are both just feeling each other out. I TM her goodnight and did not get a reply till the A.M. that she fell asleep early ... then she told me about a possible new job, about what S was doing this morning, I wished her a good day and left it at that.

I forgot to add, Last Monday when I dropped off S, she asked if I was going to hug her, it was an awkward stand off just prior to that ... we did hug, my guard has been up but I am trying to work on that. We talked a bit and I told her that S and I would pick her up at 6:40 Friday for her birthday so we could take her out to dinner. I work Friday nights ... me working typically 3 nights a week over the years was a big issue in our marriage I have let all those nights except Friday go ... just so happens this year it falls on her birthday. So she assumed it would be dinner and I would go to work, I could see the disappointment on her face .. I was going to make it a surprise but I told her I took the night off (This is hard for me to do , getting someone to cover is extremely difficult). So for me this is a HUGE 180, she looked up and just muttered "Really? ... wow!" I told her its her birthday and I am trying.

I think ^^^^ was a good move, part of the new Cali 2.0 ..... and the start of me letting go and trying. I was holding onto last year, I took the weekend off and booked a weekend up in Santa Barbara (her Fav place) and we had a nice weekend ... but things were still a bit 'off', we were about 2 weeks into MC at that time. As soon as we got back she went cold and distant and yup back to OM, I felt used and was upset. I never lashed out at the time but was hurt about it. I had shared this with W a few weeks ago when she brought up her B-day was the day before S's First Communion hinting that we could not plan a trip .... she loves trips.
So anyways, dinner for her Bday, might pick her up a small gift or something but nothing like years past, not punishing but just would be to much to fast I think to get her anything substantial.


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Slow and steady Cali. You seem to be moving slowly and steadily and honestly, it feels very appropriate.

I hope by now you trust your feelings and instincts and can tell the difference between now and before. i.e. recognize the triggers and what they represent in the past vs. the present.

Glad to see you working on you. And being honest about your feelings along the way. I think that no matter how things turn out, you'll be better for it.

Your W TM'ing you that she'll be late and then that she's a few minutes away. Very respectful of your time. That's a good thing, Cali. She is trying to rebuild your trust if you ask me.

Don't be easily discouraged. Just like when this all started, it goes two steps forward and one step sideways at times. But when you see the bigger picture it can look a lot different than the immediate actions. And its a two-way street. Keep that in mind as time goes on smile

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AJ

Yeah there really is a difference. Even the heated spats, recently she has tried to diffuse with a joke .. this has happened twice, it was more the way we used to fight/argue. SO I am taking things slow, I have been looking at MC's for the past 2 days researching them and weeding out some I just do not feel would work well with us ... trouble is twice now the ones I thought would be a good fit are booked solid ... proves to me my research is good.

Yeah I had a Eureka moment realizing I could make this impossible if I chose to, or I could be honest and look in the mirror and ask myself, are you really upset with the current issue or is this a past hurt that you are putting in its place ... proves I have been doing a good share of the later. Constantly re-evaluating me and where I am at has helped, I admittedly was in a funk for a bit, due to the rise of old emotions and hurts ... could have let that mess up all the work I have done but I refuse to go that far backwards. I think the nice thing is W recognizes she will slip here and there and I will to, but there does seem to be some acceptance of that for each other though we have not really come out and said it.

And yeah, she does seem to be telling me where she is, sharing these things without me asking ... honestly I was not thinking "Oh she is with OM again" because if I have learned anything .. I can not control that anyways and I refuse to let it control me.

I do look forward to the day when I can sell this mirror to some newbie here for a good chunk of change and take all the vets out for a drink, but I have a feeling I am supposed to take it with me. laugh


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Hello peeps.

Just a bit of journaling, catching up.

I think the past two weeks I was in the middle of a growth spurt, for whatever reason alot of those old feelings resurfaced and threw me for a loop, but I dealt with them .. admittedly I was caught off guard, almost scared ... then I realized ... if I did not feel anything I should have most likely been MORE worried as those thigns would fester and most likely build up and erupt later, at a most critical time. I could deal and sort out what I was feeli9ng and why without it really effecting anyone, nor anyone cept you fine people even knowing about it.

I feel pretty strong and good today.

Last night I had S, late scrimmage for baseball, I ran the pitch machine and was talking trash to my boys ... they were not ready for my machine assisted heater, curve, slider, change up ... granted every pitch was the same but my trash talking skills would switch up. My S CRUSHED one the first at bat and ... well turns out .. apple/tree he was talking junk as he rounded first on his way to a stand up double ... just a fun night.

W's birthday is tomorrow, I had made reservations and took the night off ... Cali 1.0 would not have done these things..... ever. W TM telling me she is not feeling well and needs to eat clean, asked to cancel dinner. I was a bit miffed atfirst as I made these reservations at a really nice place, and that not sure part of me wondered if she might pull something like having plans to do her own thing ... I quickly just canceled the reservations and figured either way I have the night off and would enjoy myself regardless of what I did ... with or without W. She TM later on asking if I would cook her one of my famous steaks, she said she really missed them, along with the mashed potatoes... these things fall into eating clean for her, and I do like to cook so I said sure. After she asked if we could stay in and finish the movie we started last week, and then wanted to go see the new movie Sat night with S after his communion. All good by me and actually sounds fun.

Seems the glimpses of the old W are more and more frequent (she even jokes a bit here and there, that was gone for the past 3-4 years) but the old Cali 1.0 less and less. Now its a matter of if W 2.0 is compatible with Cali 2.0 (going on 3.0). Time will tell. I am currently 0-3 in the MC search, the good ones are taken but I will continue to research and find the right one for us. I am also pleased W contacted the priest and looks like they have something set up and he is going to help her with some things she is struggling with, I fell this is basically the IC she may need and I do think she can benefit from Father D, he is a genuinely amazing man.... I think he can help her.

I have my GAL softball playoff game tonight ... wanted to ride the Harley but I will have S tagging along till W picks him up from the field. Still all good. Work is busy but I am staying on top of it for the most part... things just seem to be in the place they should be, it will all take time but at the moment I will just take the small amounts of peace that have been given to me.


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Well, alright, alright, alright. smile Lookee at you, Luke. I am digging Cali 2.0. He seems like a pretty cool guy.

Good on you for not getting upset about the dinner plans.

Oh and two other things...the mirror...yea, its gotta stay. smile

The drinks?? You never know what life brings, right?

There have been meetups of peeps on here. It is always a good time.

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Quote:
at the moment I will just take the small amounts of peace that have been given to me.
Should probably pack this with the mirror for the journey. You'll want this too. smile


AJ


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Happy Monday all.

Well my journey continues. W's Birthday was Friday, I was on the fence with what to do, what not to do ... all that. As I think I mentioned I did take the night off (Huge 180 for me). During the day I had Flowers sent to her work, I did this last year too ... Just a note "Hope you have a wonderful Birthday, signed S, Tommy(the dog) Cali." No "Love" or anything. She TM early in the day asking if I got her balloons, I said no balloons they must have been from someone else, then she quickly replied that her gf at work sent them. Later in the day she received the flowers, her favorite, 30 tulips. She told me they were gorgeous and said "2 Dozen??" with a smiley face. I told her to count them and there better be 30, one for every year with a wink. She told me I was sweet and she was blushing. I lughed to myself, hey we all know the MLC thing hinges on age and what they think they missed out on, why not use that a little to my advantage, I know she is hung up on her age and looks ... its her B-day why not .. hahaha.

So ^^^ got me thinking a bit. W's identity has always seemed to gravitate around her looks, and with age she is still a knock out but I see her look towards younger women, little remarks here n there, seems to be an issue for her. I think she is starting to come to grips that age gets us all, though she is still putting up a fight.

Saturday was S's 1st Communion, W was in old form a bit, and after a few hours it took its toll. One of the Old M things that I did not like was W had to be in control of everything, and me being the fixer I either went along to avoid the fight or would enable. I see that so clearly now. The Day started off with her wanting to take her car after I offered to drive, ok fine, I still drove, just her car. On the way she tried to tell me how to get there (Her way), Once there she attempted to control the photoshoot, this put S and I both into not so happy moods. Finally in church as I thought ahead and grabbed a seat she had a little remark about wanting to sit in front (I ignored but this was the last straw) We get through Communion and after she asked why S was upset, and why I seemed upset. I said we should talk this out as a family, all 3 of us went to a bench and I asked S why he was upset, he shared that W pressures to much, was being bossy, and took to many pictures. I asked W why she was upset and after some small little things I seen through I asked what was really bothering her and she shared that her family was not there for S's big day. I realized her actions all morning were more from that than anything. STFU really helps. We patched things up and finished with the pictures.

W and I did get into it after as I never really shared how she upset me, we were going to lunch .. S's favorite that we agreed upon and she suggested we go to a different place (Just so happened to be the place she took me for my B-day, yup and that night was BD) So I told her I did not want to go there, she asked why I told her I just didnt .. she kept on and then I went ahead and told her why. We had it out a bit, but I really think it was healthy for me. I told her I am not going to be the "Go-along" guy any longer, that my needs and wants matter. If she could not see that nor understand it I can not help her with that, we had some choice words here and there but I held my ground and let her know I would rather be alone than back in the old M where she was fully in charge, then would say she wants a man to make a decision ... really put light on how she contradicts herself, and then would cast blame on me for everything afterwards. Was a lightbulb moment, and if nothing else was me standing up and voicing my opinion and not backing down. In the past I would try to fix this, this time I said my peace, stood my ground and never wavered.... big step for me.
We ended up taking a break and meeting up for a later lunch, she apologized, and I told her I expect us to have a few of those, if anything it clears things. I actually felt better after, especially when I realized those fights used to erupt into such hateful things said by us both, we seem to now be able to recover and move on much more quickly.

After all that we really had a good weekend, I fell asleep at her place on the floor watching TV, she woke me and I slept in S's bed, woke up early and went home ... cleaned up and went to church. We spent most of Sunday together, lunch, movies, little shopping. All in all a good weekend where I feel we took a nibble out of the elephant. I still am looking for a MC, hopefully early this week I land one.


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Just wow, Cali. You handled that very well. Like a man. I am thoroughly impressed to say the least. You saw well beyond the immediate and didn't "fix" things, but handled them well. That's impressive.

I've been meaning to follow up on the forgiveness thread. Hope you don't mind smile

It occurs to me that even if the other person doesn't want forgiveness, we still need to. Why? Because that's how it starts. Further, it occurred to me that my happiest times were always when I wasn't focused on just me. Sure I matter, but there's a bigger picture. More dynamics. More people that also count.

I say that's how it starts. Even if the other person doesn't want it, that's how it starts in my view. I still don't think full forgiveness can happen without the other person, but I also realize that somebody has to start the cycle. And I realize that even if they don't want it, they do, on some level, need it. I feel I am narrowing it down a bit. How this life stuff works in that sense.

In your case, I think it does really start with you. As the leader you have become. Your confidence and firmness and decisiveness is inspiring. Especially since it's not a "me" focused path. The trick seems to be in balancing the hurt and anger with the need for forgiveness. i.e. stopping the hurt. What I've come to realize more and more is that he hurt stops when I say it does. Not because I no longer care, as I previously thought. But because I say it no longer has the power to hurt me. It just is what it is. I was already there, but the next step? That's the struggle right? How to be me, be a leader and let go of the past hurtful actions and sayings. i.e. I know she meant it to hurt (for whatever reasons - doesn't matter any longer) but if not for that, I wouldn't be who I am today. It didn't kill me. It hurt for sure, but I give up the rights I have to hurt back. And even the idea that I have that right smile

I hope that helps give you a reason to think a bit more, Cali. I think you're doing wonderfully and I hope you find a good MC/IC. I honestly believe she is trying. Nobody really knows where it goes, but then, you never knew before right?

Glad to read this post tonight. And glad for the reasons to re-think things I thought I was done with and set in my thinking. smile


Cheers,

AJ

P.S. your feelings and wants do matter as much as the rest of the family. It's how you as a team blend them that makes the difference.


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Thank you AJ ... like all things with me, I think the true growth happens by setting aside some things, getting quiet and really thinking about it ... like the forgiveness angle... for some time and then slowly getting to that spot on the map I know I want to be at, nothing happens overnight and there are still plenty of things I am taking with me that I need to drop off before I can arrive to the place I would like to be.

The recent hang up for me (My current hurdle I am dealing with), yes she does appear to be trying ... and maybe this is where my sitch is somewhat different from ones I have read so I am sailing in uncharted waters. She seems to be trying not so much because she wants me per say, but because the R did not work out with OM and she has sabotaged that to the point of no repair .... similar to the way she tried with our M, now OM appears to have been of the 'player' variety so he obviously has checked out and moved on, from what I gather he was the one constantly dumping W .... making her pursue even more. For whatever reason I am still here believing that the new M could be the one I have always wanted ... is this setting myself up for failure, or is it unexplained blind faith ... this remains to be seen, I have however reached a place of self worth where I refuse to be door #2, but how after all this could I ever feel that I was door #1 all the while .... given the facts. Again ... not sure there is anything she can do, she can not take any of this back, like me she can not undo the past, its there ... its how I move forward that truly matters, and I can either let the past influence me, or maybe I can get over all the hurt/pain that came of it ..... I would have to do this regardless of M or not.

I found this forum very late into the game ... almost a year after BD, and was a few months before I discovered this MLC thing, I never begged nor pleaded ... but I admittedly did somethings had I been here I think would have gone differently. That being said this hang up of being the back up is fueled by the hurt little boy along with the burnt hand syndrome of going through several touch and go's along the way, not seeing them for what they were, and basically scaring the squirrel back deep into the tunnel ... something I am not doing now, but it does seem to be more reconnection rather than a touch and go, still I am moving slowly and cautiously ... during this the hurt and pain will come out of nowhere, like an ambush and its all I can do to remain calm Navy Seal style and not blink ...much.

As far as forgiveness, I think its easy to confuse that with completely getting over the pain. I feel like I forgave some time ago, right about rope drop time where I realized her actions would no longer wreck my life. I had to let go of that for me .... dealing with the pain and the 'triggers' that come with it ... yeah I am not there yet. I am not holding onto that stuff, I do not want it , I would prefer to have peace ... it was good for a bit but did seem to come when there was a change of heart with the W's reconnection phase, and she does seem to understand to a point ... but not overly apologetic, again .. seems in line with the MLC thing, complete oblivion with many things.

I do see the benefit in her actually wanting forgiveness, and at some point asking for it .... seems if that were to happen there is that mutual "We can move one from this now" vibe ...regardless if that means move on from the M, or attempt to fix it. Something I hope MC would touch on ... however at this point I am frustrated as I am 0-5 with the MC appts ... seems there is alot of M's out there needing work, not just ours. I shared this with W last night, she thanked me for doing the leg work, even suggested that the priest would like to talk to us once she feels she has dealt with her chit ... again .. positive step in the right direction, as was her calling me this morning and talking about her work, S, my work, future for about 45 minutes ... felt nice, no anger or bitterness, not even once frustrating word.

The walk continues...


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Just a mini update... chit chat increasing....

Last night while S called her I jumped in the shower, once I got out I put S to bed then got ready to walk the dog .. .W TM asking if I would be up later and if she could call. She called actually wanting advice on her work. Serious fear she will get laid off soon. I told her my thoughts. This morning she called on her way to physical therapy, actually more curious about my day, work, etc. She again went into the what if scenarios with her job, we talked about how ever since she was laid off in 2009 she never found that replacement, I suggested it could be because she compares it all to that dream job, they will never live up to that so she is always frustrated and disappointed they all have not hit that mark. She actually listened and thought I might have a point.

She called again after therapy, this time about S and his summer camp. We had to actually go to the civic center, pay in full for the summer to make sure he got a spot. She is pressed against it at work and was worried about taking time off, I told her I would handle it .... jumped on my bike and rode to the place, got him all signed up and TM her it was all taken care of, we would sort out the $$ thing later. She called immediately thanking me, profusely, I told her no problem, made a joke how if we did not get him in the other option would be putting the kid up for adoption .... its tough as we really have no family nor friends to rely on to take S here n there (Another issue in the M honestly)

On my ride back ... several more TM thanking me, this is a 180 for Cali 1.0, W always had to do these things as my old job I could not just up and go, here I have that freedom and thankfully its helping turn things for me, was never that I didn't want to... but I can see how W felt all this pressure to take care of everything ... CAli 2.0 just is not going to have her feel that pressure any longer.

The talk this morning, I kind of thought to myself ... wow .. its like nothing ever happened, was one of 'our' talks. She really has been ramping up and trying to reconnect, nothing about our sitch or 'us' really. She has been hugging me more often, we discussed the 5 LL I do not think she has read the book ... even though its on the iPad on the Kindle ... but when I described her LL was Acts of service (What I did today) mine is Physical touch ... has been more hugs, held hands a bit in the movies Sunday ... things are moving slowly in the right direction. Which leads me to kissing, we have not really gone there, I do feel I have to instigate this but the push pull dance is heavy with us .. not so sure I want to have a backslide because I went in lips-a-blazin ... nor do I want rejection which will feed hurt little boy. Just things on my mind, spill it here .. seems to help me there kind of thing.


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Hiya Luke. Man, those updates made me smile. You are doing so great. You are doing the work. You are walking the walk. Good on you.

Just want to talk about two things right now. Yea, Im a nag...deal with it. smile

I do not want to underestimate the deep hurt that is caused by the MLCers actions. I have felt it..and it succks. And yea, you dont get over it quickly. It is a process.

The way a MLC usually goes, is that the spouse is the last they reconnect with. That means you wont hear an apology now..or maybe ever for that matter. And you wont hear her say she wants you. Not at this point. She has a ways to go.

So, you have to decide if you are willing to take a leap of faith. Thats really the bottom line, right? Because Im thinking even if she told you everything you wanted to hear, you would still have doubts and would still have to choose whether to take the leap or not, considering there are no quarantees either way.

I am not one to give an MLCer a pass on their actions. They have to own those. However, an affair during an MLC is a symptom of a very broken person. So, truthfully, though it feels like it is personal, it really doesnt have anything to do with you. She didnt have one to hurt you.

Now thats not to say that there werent things that needed fixing in your marriage and things you both needed to change.

And maybe the end of the affair was the impetus for her to try to reconnect. It could have been what was needed in order for her to look at herself. She could have chosen to find someone else or to lead her own life.

So maybe being chosen second really isnt what is happening here.

Either way, the way to peace is in healing the hurt little boy.

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uR ... I never see it as nagging ... usually its things I need to see from a different perspective, just as this, things I have to sit and think about very deeply, sometimes hours/days even weeks till my thick skull can wrap itself around it.

Strange .. "Leap of Faith" that phrase has been following me lately. The W used it over the weekend talking about trying to make the marriage work, that at some point I would need to take that jump ... ofcourse she claims she already has ... again ..knowing she has a long way to go, I am just trying not to get sucked in, observe and continue on my path, as I to have even more work to do.

Maybe others have touched on this .. maybe not, I have been thinking alot about it. I think when we detach, drop the rope, we also let go alot of that hurt and pain, atleast I did. Felt good really, in my mind I figured ... ok .. going to D and thats ok, I will be ok, heck, I will be better, I deserved better ... what happened happened and I tried all I could but things did not work out .... in a way, it was a way off the hook, W came down with a serious MLC, destroyed what was left of our not so good marriage ... maybe she did me a favor, regardless time for a new slate, new life lets go. THEN ... Baaa BAA Bommm... she says "I do not want to D, I want to work on our M" ... now hold on a hot minute, I was good and starting to figure out my new life .. now you want to tell me what I have hoped you would say for the past 2 years. Ok, change gears... scratch that , change cars ... glad to hear it, lets start working things out ...

Its like moving into a new house, you learned lessons in that first one, the DYI projects that you would do differently, better, never do laminate flooring again, go tile or hardwood, looks better, easier to maintain .... you have a new focus, you realize all the mistakes you made before .. for me .. I was the pursuin, non conflict, fixer ... Not now, not only did that behaivior get me nowhere, it also eroded any respect W had for me, along with the respect I had for myself ... never again. So moving into this new house .. for a few weeks it was all about trying to get comfortable, then you start becoming more aware of your own feelings, it should feel like home but it just doesn't, not yet.

Then going through some old boxes and whammo the old memories that I thought were done, dealt with and gone, nope, in that box, the hurts and the pains, the betrayal, all that stuff right there in the box. I know this stuff has no place in the house, for now its in the garage, I want to take it to the dump, I do .. but its there, still in there, sometimes I just forget about it for a bit ... but knowing its there, or something reminds me its there, it would be nice if it were so easy to just load it up and toss it, but something tells me I need to sort through it, address it, label it and in time I can slowly sneak it in the regular trash and one day that box will not be such an item of focus. Again, I am the only one who can deal with this box, I get it and accept it ... I also accept I do not want this box to dirty up that new house, the one I hoped we might get to one day ... even if at this time it does not feel like home, I am lucky to have come this far ... still more work to do.


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Luke, I like your metaphors and the way you use these images to look at things.

I completely get what you wrote. And the truth is that by the time the MLCer wants to reconnect, the spouse or exspouse is long gone. It happens often. For the reasons you cite..we have leg go and moved forward and we figured out what we want and who we are.

So, I totally understand your mindset. I want you to know that I am not pushing you either way. Thats your decision. I would support you whatever you decide.

I feel as if I have come to know you pretty well. I'm thinking that you need to see this through or you will always wonder. I think you want to try to see if there is any future there.

The feelings you have absolutely have to be sorted through in order to come out of this whole and at peace.

I had to separate the man I knew from the actions he took. I had to remember the love in order to let the hurt go. I had to make a decision to not allow the hurt to control me. I had my own little child to heal.

The more I moved forward, the more confident I got with who I was, the easier it was to do that.

I did have to take a leap of faith....and trust that I would be ok and that letting go of the hurt was what I needed.

It's funny that you mention that "leap of faith" thing. I say it and write it alot...along with "Not my problem". Some of my friends on here have always encouraged me to write a book...and use one of those at the title. LOL!

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Ok, I didnt proofread that at all. LOL!

Should read, the truth is often by the time the MLCer..

and...we have let go...not leg go..

Sheesh. smile

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Well uR like they say .. men are visual creatures ... and it does help me just detach myself from the issues if I can paint them in a way that would make sense and deal with them as such. Just talking it out here does wonders.

Yeah you are right with the "see this through or you will always wonder" remark. Like I told my buddy (Christian and knows the entire sitch ... only commends me for who I am and who I have become... has not judged one way or the other .. true friend here.. even though we talk maybe once a month) I told him all I can do at the end of the day is look at myself in the mirror and say I did all I can.

I do think there can be a future, but that gift of time that I packed up and tried returning about 14 times, seems now I need a new shipment of it, strange how that one worked, one I never thought I would admit to laugh

I have been not having any luck with MC's ... been researching them and like the saying goes .. all the good ones are taken. Thinking about it, it hit me ... W brought up Retrouvaille a few weeks ago, so I decided I would contact them for more information, that email came in today so I forwarded it to W, told her about the MC and how our schedules are difficult and this might just be the better option. Does a few things from my viewpoint, gives her reassurance that I am wanting to move forward and work on the M with her (seems she is nervous here and I can not say I blame her, I am dealing with all these 'boxed' emotions and she is coming to terms with the fog lifting and the damage that has appeared more clearly to her) ... plus it bys some time, time I can keep working, time for her to keep meeting with the priest who is acting as her IC. This may be strange but I just feel God is controlling this and this in my heart is the way to go. I would have found a MC by now if that's what was to happen.


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Cali, I know I haven't said much to ya lately. You're still doing fantastic. But I read a post earlier, and I'm going to just share a thought I've had since things turned around in your sitch that I think maybe you may feel. Well it's something I felt and maybe saw some of it in you.

I know when xh came back, I had a little panic in the sense that I felt, "No! Not yet! It's too early!" Like I had a feeling he would, but I wasn't done with me yet. I didn't want my time to be cut short. And I further knew... he had a long, long way to go. He didn't realize just how far.

Actually, I'm pretty sure, he thought it would just go right back where he left off. He talked immediately about coming back, our next steps... like we would plan before bd- like it didn't happen. And never once did he discuss it with me- like if it would be ok if he came back. Assumptions.

OK, not trying to ramble... but I think I just know some of your feelings, and although I don't always chime in, I understand how tough it is.

I also think that may have been some of the hesitation about mc? Like, yeah! I want that. When it's time. It is such a fragile time. I understand your concern and am so glad you continue to focus on you.

We had too many outside influences to get to that point. But I am fully aware of the fragility of it. You get it. You are doing so well. No matter what, you will be amazing and strong, and a really good man.

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Visual creatures...oh, the many things I can say here...hee hee.

That God is in control does not sound weird at all. I truly believe things happen as they should. Im thinking He has a hand in it. smile

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Mighty

Yeah, I have been reading a few threads, and as I guess looks like it has taken months for the LBS ... MLC or not... just to feel like .. ok this is real, the WAS is really trying and they begin to trust a bit.

I am about 1 1/2 months in now, thats a new record for me.. lol, starting to accept she is trying, even the fights here and there, not as bad as they used to be. Thing is... like yesterday, not much contact, she TM after work asking "how are you guys?" and that she was on her way but the exchange was quick, I did some house cleaning, ironed, cooked ( I am starting to want to date/marry myself the more I type) and after, met up with a couple friends of mine for a Cinco drink ... then home. She TM during that at 9:30 with a goodnight, but I honestly was not thinking about her .. I was GAL .. and detached. Today .. she is much more chatty via TM, again ... just observing its not making or wrecking my day. I am staying even which feels good, even showing some leg if you will and joking with her a touch, because that's me, that's who I always was and that part I packed into 2.0 .. I like that part of me, always have.

But yeah, my fear was her wanting MC so fast and either quitting to early (That was me not trusting she is all in) Or just not ready to do the work on our M because lets just be honest, I think she has some unresolved issues to work on herself, and by going MC I think it is a band-aide to take the focus off her, not to imply she is all that was wrong in our M, but I think you guys get what I am aiming at here. So I admmitedly stalled, and seems now I am getting help stalling, but found a loophole where maybe it helps her to know ... yes MC is on the table but its about 2 months out ... in the meantime you should keep working on you ... just like I am, and we will see if we can get through some of the small things on our own knowing we need serious help with the M .... trick is not to implode on the way.

I have to hit a point where I can accept that she had the A, sure its a symptom, but its there MLC or not, I have to accept the STD and what that will be for the rest of her life anyways and how it impacts me, still remains to be seen if I can deal with that. I have to communicate that this event transformed me into who I was meant to become, and accept that ... more importantly W has to accept that new man just as I must learn to accept the new person she has/will become ... are those two new people compatible as the Cali1.0 and W1.0 were for 24 years?? ... thats a big TBD.

I do think that ^^^ has to be factored in, and I am willing to try, but I am no longer willing to give up who I have become to do this, so I do see some rocks on this road that will need to be either moved or navigated around for the new M to work.


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Exactly. Well said. I get it.

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Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
I am willing to try, but I am no longer willing to give up who I have become to do this, so I do see some rocks on this road that will need to be either moved or navigated around for the new M to work.


I freakin love that ^^^.

Luke, I want to be clear..I am not at all saying that you should jump right in here. In fact it was me who didnt think you should do MC at this time. I say that because if it happens too soon, it can implode.

Let's face it, Luke, this is a crap shoot in some ways. I mean, we dont really know what's going to happen, yea?

The difference between this and the other times she wanted back in doesnt lie with her...it lies with you. You are in a place of strength this time...and that, my friend, matters a great deal.

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Originally Posted By: uRworthy


Luke, I want to be clear..I am not at all saying that you should jump right in here. In fact it was me who didnt think you should do MC at this time. I say that because if it happens too soon, it can implode.


uR,

Can you please elaborate a bit on your thought process here? What do you base your observation of MC can "implode" as you say? How and why would it "implode" if it happens on some arbitrary idea of 'too soon'??

I'm genuinely curious here. smile

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Hey Wonka, I have been around several marriages where the spouse wanted back in before they had worked through their stuff.

When they went to MC, the therapist felt that there was no way it would work and encouraged them to give up. Now some of that was because a couple of the therapists werent pro marriage.

Some went and the spouse was still stuck in their stuff and it went badly. Another one went to be able to say they tried. Another hadnt done the work and decided it was just too hard.

So, I feel strongly that they both need to be of similar mindset in terms of where they are in wanting to save their marriage and that the MLCer has made some strides in doing the work.

Not saying it will happen, just that it could.

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Originally Posted By: uRworthy
Hey Wonka, I have been around several marriages where the spouse wanted back in before they had worked through their stuff.

That's assuming that it was done without IC and MC??

When they went to MC, the therapist felt that there was no way it would work and encouraged them to give up. Now some of that was because a couple of the therapists werent pro marriage.

This is what we usually talk about around here in DB. Bad MC therapist can do more harm than good. In Cali's case, I believe he is doing his due diligence when researching MCs. I do not belive this bad MC will be the case here. So we can scratch this off the list of concerns.

Some went and the spouse was still stuck in their stuff and it went badly. Another one went to be able to say they tried. Another hadnt done the work and decided it was just too hard.

Again, I sense that it was something we usually talk about in DB when there's a WAS...not a MLcer. I do think the differences between a simple WAS and MLCer impacts how one approaches MC.

So, I feel strongly that they both need to be of similar mindset in terms of where they are in wanting to save their marriage and that the MLCer has made some strides in doing the work.

I have a bit of a problem with this section right there. As you have read around in the MLC forum for a long time, most often one can see that the MLCer and the long-standing LBS are usually not of the similar mindset. It is as if the MLCer is catching up and looking to the LBs as the wingman to re-boot their M. You only have to see Raine and rH's threads to recognize it.

They (MCLers) usually look to the LBS for cues for unconditional love and pointing them in the right direction with loving guidance. If we qualify attending MC with this provsion that the MLCer must make "great strides" first, then it's a crapshoot because how one makes "great strides" is a subjective measurement.

I want to point out that Cali's W has been asking about MC which is highly unusual of a former MLCer just coming out of the tunnel and she's taking the initiative which is even more special. In my mind, the more Cali puts off the MC due to his ongoing unresolved fears, it will be detrimental to the new Cali M.

The mindset does not have to be similar, but the INTENT behind it is...which is trying to chart a new path forward with the expert guidance of a qualified professional versed in solution-based MC threapy. I just think that trying to do this DIY by themselves is doing the M, and the family a great disservice.

I wouldn't dream of doing my taxes without a qualified CPA, changing a gasket in the car without a mechanic, etc.


Not saying it will happen, just that it could.


Make sense?

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