Hello all. To start off, I have read DR and have been following many of the threads on this board for almost two months. I figured it was time to throw my hat in the ring in search of some good old fashioned feedback.
Here’s my sitch: W gave me the “I don’t feel satisfied with my life” and “I’ve been stonewalling you for years” talk the week of Xmas. I was surprised by this as I suspected none of it and reacted poorly by stonewalling her for the next few days.
The following week, my W told that she felt we needed to separate. Again, I initially reacted poorly by getting angry and spiteful. However, eventually I realized the severity of the situation and calmed down.
The following week or so, I began to play the role of a perfect spouse in order to show her I could change. I also spiraled into depression. She struggled to show any affirmation towards my attempts.
Then on January 8th, I confirmed the affair through text messages. She had become emotionally and physically involved with an OM at work. A few days later, she told me ILYBINILWY. After my initial anger when discovering the affair, I decided I wanted to try and save the marriage. We attempted 5 session of MC but it seemed ineffective, especially because W was continuing to contact OM.
For a month, I was the poster child for pursuit and not what to do. I was a physical and emotional mess. She was completely repulsed by any of my advances. Needless to say, none of this worked and she continued her relationship with OM.
In February, I read DR and began to apply LRT. Immediately, W responded. She began to initiate all physical contact and even started to sound remorseful for the affair. W even stated that she wanted to work on our marriage for the kids. I thought this was my chance to reply. However, when I asked for NC with OM, W stated that she felt that OM was the only person she could talk to about her situation. So, I returned to LRT.
(Just a little background about the relationships that surround my W and our marriage that could help understand this dynamic. When I met my W, I was already established in our city and had many close friendships. Many of my friends were also getting married at the same time we were. As a result, many of my W’s best friends are my best friend’s wives. When the affair was discovered, she immediately told her best friend and I told my best friend. As a result, the news got around in our little circle. My W’s friends attempted to give her good advice about breaking off the affair but my W just refused to do it. As a result, these same friends cut off most contact with my W. This loss of friendship for my W has been difficult and hurtful for her. She has also linked any chance at reconciliation in our marriage with these same friends. She has said that she could never be around any of these friends ever again.)
Not a whole lot has changed since mid-February other than my W receiving elective cosmetic surgery LOL. Our encounters are friendly and cordial. I have been very consistent with my LRT techniques. I do not initiate any phone contact and keep all conversations brief or about the kids. My W has made a handful of attempts at spending alone time with me. However, I have resisted most of these as I did not feel it was appropriate to spend alone time while she was actively involved with OM.
On 04/02, my W got into it with one of her friends about her affair. As a result, she blamed me for the loss of all her friends and she was moving out. She blamed for discontinuing MC. She claimed that I gave up on working on our marriage because she was the only one initiating any contact or planning anything together. In response, I told her that I was and still am willing to work on the marriage but only if she agrees to NC with OM. But I did tell her that I can’t wait forever and it appears that our marriage is heading towards divorce.
On 04/05, my wife finally moved in with her parents. The last week brought about some interesting comments from my W in response to her new situation and my GAL’ing: “This is the best version of you that I have ever seen” & “This is the happiest that you have ever been since I’ve known you.” Additionally, she called me on 04/10 to tell me how much she missed me. However, I know that I can’t believe a word she says at this point, especially with an OM in the picture.
We have talked about D at times, but now it is more than ever. Usually the conversation revolves around how all of her work friends tell her that she should get an attorney but that she doesn’t want to go that route. We have both pledged to be peaceful and graceful in this transition, especially with our kids. She has moved most of her stuff out of the house. Based on our conversations, it seems as if D is almost a foregone conclusion.
I don’t want a D and I still want to try to reconcile. Numerous times over the last few months, I have acknowledged my role in our marital problems and have pledged to give every ounce of my being to save our marriage. However, I refuse to give up LRT until she agrees to end her relationship with OM. I have not pressured her to do this however. I have simply let her go and told her that I just want her to be happy. I continue to tell myself that I will be fine either way. I’m just not sure I have fully accepted a reality without my W yet. I think deep down inside I expect us to reconcile in the future.
I know there are a lot of details I left out but I wanted to make my story as brief as possible. I figured I could fill in the blanks if anyone had a specific question.
I guess my first question would be, should I just be patient and continue on my path of LRT’ing or should I begin to try something else?
Thoughts?
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
1. Get her out of that job where she continues to have contact with OM
2. Get her away from the friends she currently feels aren't being supportive (for what it's worth those are actually good SUPPORTIVE friends that won't support or condone adultery and refuse to associate with your wife as long as she continues down this path...your wife should appreciate them some day if she ever pulls her head out of the fog).
3. Moving is cheaper and better for your family than divorce.
Is OM married? Does his wife know? Maybe his wife will be able to get him to quit?
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
Georgia Bulldogs, That's an intriguing option but is problematic. The reason is due to W's complaints that I did not offer enough support in her career. I believe this could be a good option if W commits to marriage.
In regards to OM, I'm not sure if he's married or not. W has always told me OM is married but I heard from a friend that W told her OM is not married. I do know that OM has kids. Regardless, I always thought it wise to not focus on OM. I would want my W to freely decide to be with me and not be forced back to me. Control was another issue W had with me in our marriage. I'm afraid contacting OM or his wife would be viewed as a power play and push W farther away. I think it would also conflict with my "letting her go" strategy a bit.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Posters go either way on this forum. I am of the opinion that IF the OM is married, his wife has a right to know her husband is cheating on her and by keeping OM (and your wife's) secret for them you both enable the affair AND become a co-conspirator of the secret.
If you and OM's wife were knowingly using the same accountant and you caught your accountant embezzling your money, even though OM's wife is pretty much a stranger you'd still tell her, wouldn't you???? Adultery is a far more significant and hurtful "crime" so I feel it deserves an even greater community consideration.
Others feel differently but I don't see how you have much to lose seeing that your wife doesn't look too excited to cut off contact all by herself.
As far as you being controlling, they all say that. I'm not suggesting vindictive exposure. Just telling the OM"s wife (if he's married) as the decent thing to do. Your marriage can survive your wife's anger. It can't survive, as you are coming to realize, as long as they continue to see each other at work....indefinitely.
If OM's wife "controls" her husband...all the better, but being "controlling" is not the reason you tell...it's to be, IMO, decent.
It's the RIGHT thing to do...IMO and no one regrets doing the right thing
YMMV (your mileage may vary).
Last point - what they call "controlling" today...if and when you recover your hopefully former wayward wife will then refer to such actions as "protective". You are FIGHTING for marriage and family here despite the devastatingly hurtful behavior of your wife. You are trying to save her. Being a stand up decent guy who is not afraid to stand up and do the right thing despite his wife's potential anger over messing with her affair partner is attractive and consistent with "letting her go". "Letting her go" doesn't include keeping her/their secrets.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
Two updates: W just texted me four pics of our children. I believe it's appropriate for me to respond briefly to her texts but I keep it succinct and only about kids. Agree?
Also, W just got back from an overnite trip to Miami. She told me that the trip was good for her soul. I responded by saying I was glad she had a good time. Should I inquire more?
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Thanks for the reply Mr. Bond. No, the trip was not with the kids. I will not ask her anything about the trip.
However, W did post a selfie from this trip in a bikini on Instagram and Facebook. I know I shouldn't care but that seemed to really hurt, almost like a rumination from the PA.
W sent another text today of a picture of our daughter with me from a few years ago. I didn't respond this time.
Part of me wonders if W sending pics of the kids to me is an excuse to keep contact with me but I know this is mind-reading.
On another note, I did a little internet sleuth work and confirmed that OM is (or, at least, was) married. I'm still unsure as to whether or not it would be appropriate for me to contact OM's wife. I'm just not convinced that doing so would be consistent with the detachment and LRT I've exhibited thus far.
If I do decide to contact OM's wife, would you recommend a phone call, a letter, or in person?
Last edited by Defacto; 04/13/1508:35 PM.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Again...telling OM"s betrayed wife is a personal decision but I would encourage you to do what you inherently likely know is right. No matter how this ends up...yours is the face you will see in the mirror thereafter. Conduct yourself with integrity (and I respect however you want to define that term).
The logistics....
Do not forewarn your wife or you'll just make it that much worse and harder. If you warn them they will use the time to coordinate to thwart your telling by claiming you are a jealous vindictive maybe dangerous abusive husband of some lady OM works with and to ignore you. Also do not do it anonymously. You have nothing to be ashamed of. Give your full name, phone # and email address. Tell the other BS all about the affair, offer to share all evidence with her. Offer to follow up to ensure that contact is truly ended and ask the other BS to do the same. The other BS will be shocked when you tell her, so be sure and give your email address and phone # for follow up questions.
If you decide or are forced to do it in person, then bring someone with you and mind your boundaries. Betrayed wives seem to often take the "while I'll just sleep with my husband's affair partner's husband" as an snap revenge instinct. Be helpful but you are not a counselor and you have enough problems on your own plate to worry about fixing their marriage. Just the facts.
I will pray for you and your family.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
GB, I appreciate your response. Whether or not to tell OM's betrayed spouse is something I will will have to think long and hard about. Thank you for your prayers!
Some of the therapists/coaches I have spoken with have advised against it but I know there are definitely two schools of thought here.
The logistics of it make sense but right now I'm questioning my motives. I know I should want to do it because it's the "right" thing to do but I wonder if I am just contemplating it out of hope it destroys the affair.
On a personal note, tonight was a little challenging as I met my W at the mall to pick up the kids. I could tell she was preoccupied and in a hurry so there really wasn't much of a conversation. She usually will try to initiate a hug before she leaves but not this time. I really just need to do a better job eliminating any expectations for my W and this M.
Last edited by Defacto; 04/13/1511:39 PM.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
W just called from work, like she usually does, to check on the kids around bedtime, but they were already sleeping. She made a comment about how I am becoming distant again. W states that "selfishly, she doesn't want that and she doesn't want that for the kids but she understands."
I just replied by saying "sorry" and I changed the subject.
I really don't understand where she's at right now. It seems she wants the closeness of our friendship so bad and just assumed it would always be there for her. I know I just need to be patient and continue forward on my journey for myself.
But why does she even care that I'm being "distant" when she continues to seek the comfort of OM?
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
"I just replied by saying "sorry" and I changed the subject."
Never apologize for that. Tell her that you can not speak to her while she's committing adultery and she will not control how she thinks you should react. A little truth dart here and there won't hurt.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
I have to chime in I agree with GB on his advice the BS has a right to know. If she had discovered the affair first, I assume you would have wanted her to let you know right? Just leave out the commentary. Share the facts and limit it to that. If she asks questions, answer what you know. Remember, you are exposing her to something which is going to change her life. Just make sure you do it in an honest way. No embellishments or negative commentary.
Me: 42 W: 32 Married 7 years together 8.5 S1: 7 S2:7 Bomb #1: 09-16-13 Recon #1: 11/13 A discovered 04-03-2014 W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me I filed D 12-02-2014 S 05-31-14 Divorced 5-19-16
W just called from work, like she usually does, to check on the kids around bedtime, but they were already sleeping. She made a comment about how I am becoming distant again. W states that "selfishly, she doesn't want that and she doesn't want that for the kids but she understands."
I just replied by saying "sorry" and I changed the subject.
I really don't understand where she's at right now. It seems she wants the closeness of our friendship so bad and just assumed it would always be there for her. I know I just need to be patient and continue forward on my journey for myself.
But why does she even care that I'm being "distant" when she continues to seek the comfort of OM?
You are the plan B in case plan A does not work out. Thats why she is going to feed you bread crumbs to keep you around.
Me: 42 W: 32 Married 7 years together 8.5 S1: 7 S2:7 Bomb #1: 09-16-13 Recon #1: 11/13 A discovered 04-03-2014 W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me I filed D 12-02-2014 S 05-31-14 Divorced 5-19-16
I agree with pilot and Mr Bond. Don't try to understand her thoughts and actions. Just look inward. Control what you can, which is you. Strength, patience, grace, confidence.
Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2 M - 8/2008 W is not happy - 1/2014 W wants D - 9/2014 W moved out - 11/2014 D filed - 1/23/2015 D'ed - 2/25/2015 Gave X the Letter - 11/10/2015
The logistics of it make sense but right now I'm questioning my motives. I know I should want to do it because it's the "right" thing to do but I wonder if I am just contemplating it out of hope it destroys the affair.
So wanting to destroy the affair is a bad thing????
You matter.
Your kids matter.
There is a fox in your henhouse and you are worried about shooting the fox because it may upset your chickens. It'll be over if you wait to long and OM's wife will find out eventually anyway (because your wife and he will ride off into the affairage sunset).
Tell her the truth so she can make decisions about her life based upon the truth. If it benefits you, so be it. If it doesn't, that's the cost of being a stand up guy. At least you weren't paralyzed by fear.
"Do not be afraid" appears in one form or another 366 times in the Bible. One for every day of the year (if it's leap year). Take the leap.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
Thanks so much for the encouragement and support. I will strongly consider telling OM's wife about the affair. All of your points are valid and well thought out. I do want to discuss it with my DB coach next week and review the timing of it all.
As far as control is concerned, it does feel good to have W out of the house. I finally have some stability there without the constant reminders of W and the affair. I take greatpride in being able to provide a strong and consistent environment for our children in this time of transition.
Additionally, with my W moving in to her parent's house, I know it has made the sitch much more real for her. Hopefully now, she will gain a better vantage point of the consequences of her decisions.
But who knows? I know I can't control her and I am at peace with that. She will have to find her own way through this mess.
Journaling:
W sent me a text last night at 3am. (She works the night shift at the hospital.) W said she was having a hard time. I never responded.
Just now W called me after her shift and told me that she had a hard time because she was looking through her planner and saw my birthday and our wedding anniversary in it. I responded by saying that "it all happened so fast, didn't it?"
Then W said that there are times she thinks she's making a big mistake but then, there are times she feels "in her gut" that it would never work out between us. I respond by validating her feelings but I tell her I don't agree with everything she said.
Then W stated that my lack of emotion and my newfound happiness just go to further validate that it would never work out between us. W then says that our lives are just on different trajectories.
I respond by saying that I just want her to be happy no matter what path she takes. I also validate W by saying that I think it's great that she has found her own voice through all of this.
W responds by saying she is confused by my approach through all of this. W even refers to the time she felt she was trying to work on our M. I respond by saying that I am just trying to be a bright light for the kids.
I try to end the conversation by telling W I need to get back to work and she should get some rest. I could tell that W was still troubled when I disconnected the call.
How did I do? The call went on longer than I wanted but my DB coach has encouraged me to let W talk about her feelings if she wants to.
I desperately wanted to tell W that I still do want to work on the M but I resisted the temptation to tell her. Was that the right thing to do?
Is it possible the A is over and she just hasn't told me? Should I try to gather some fresh intel? I haven't looked at the phone records for weeks...
Last edited by Defacto; 04/14/1501:27 PM.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
I respond by saying that I just want her to be happy no matter what path she takes. I also validate W by saying that I think it's great that she has found her own voice through all of this.
W responds by saying she is confused by my approach through all of this.
I don't have experience in this kind of situation, but it sounds like you did very well. With that being said, if you can with strength, confidence, grace and respect give her a Mr Bond Truth Dart. I think that would be well advised. Try not to be a doormat for her.
Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2 M - 8/2008 W is not happy - 1/2014 W wants D - 9/2014 W moved out - 11/2014 D filed - 1/23/2015 D'ed - 2/25/2015 Gave X the Letter - 11/10/2015
Had a great day at work and really occupied my down time well with productive thinking.
W contacted me to let me know she would be dropping the kids off early due to needing to go into work early. I told W that it would be no problem.
I met W and kids outside. D starts having a meltdown. W tries to console D but D is quite upset. (D has been acting out since separation).
W leaves and calls back a few minutes later to check on and talk to D. I say goodbye to W and say "have a good night at work." W responds by asking me to be nicer and that I'm only business-like on the phone. And that it makes it hard for her. W then says, "this is one of the reasons why we can't get back together."
I pause and then say "have a good night at work." Then the call is ended.
I know that she will say anything to get a rise out of me and she can't see anything but negativity towards me...but man, it still hurts!
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
W just called from work like she normally does to check on the kids. I was cordial and upbeat on the phone and kept the conversation about the kids or how work was going.
Near the end of the call, W said that she wants to schedule a discussion/dinner to talk about things. She said that she knows I'm doing good but it is hard for her right now. W said that she loves me so much and just wants to be fair when dividing things up. W also stated that it would be good just to talk.
I told W that it shouldn't be a problem and I would have to look at my schedule to see what night would work. --- W has had passing discussions with me about how she doesn't want to get a L involved if we were to get a D. I have spoken to a L in the past but it was only a consultation. I have never initiated the conversation about D but I also haven't been scared off by W if she brought it up. I have said things like, "I don't want a D but that looks like where we are headed..."
Our most recent conversation to this point was simply about sorting out the finances.
I wonder if W has mistaken my detachment during this period as my complicity in wanting a D?
Should I delay this discussion? How should I respond if she wants to talk about specifics regarding a D? What should be my approach from a LRT perspective?
Oh, and just to update a question from my previous journaling, W has most definitely not broken off contact with OM. It probably makes sense to delay any discussion with OM's wife until after this sit down conversation with my W, right?
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
This is where I think some people get the 180 wrong. Sandi is just a poster that came up with a list of 180 type behavior and wrote down a list. It was not written that way by MWD. In my opinion, and I think this is common in a lot of wayward wife situations, is the wayward wife felt neglected and thinks her husband doesn't truly care about her. My wife actually justified her affair thinking that I probably wouldn't care at all. My 180 plan included, thusly, BEING EMOTIONAL. Now, that doesn't mean running around crying and begging them to come back or buying them a bunch of gifts or trying to romance a wayward wife. You DO still have to detach and not be a wimpy little basket case....that being said....you can be honest...in a calm fashion about YOUR feelings from time to time when she is definitely listening and, herself, begging you to show some emotion.
Your wife is lost and miserable. She has romantic feelings for an OM but remaining love for you and the family. Why push her away completely and act completely happy about a situation where you honestly are miserable???
So let's see if I can help you out with some analysis of your recent conversation:
This, below, is GOOD. Listening to her. Meeting her need for conversation and like your coach said: Let her carry on talking a bit:
Originally Posted By: defacto
"Then W said that there are times she thinks she's making a big mistake but then, there are times she feels "in her gut" that it would never work out between us. I respond by validating her feelings but I tell her I don't agree with everything she said"
.
But then your wife made this statement:
Originally Posted By: defacto
"Then W stated that my lack of emotion and my newfound happiness just go to further validate that it would never work out between us. W then says that our lives are just on different trajectories".
I think this might have been an opportunity to give her a little Mr. Bond truth dart while calmly and in a detached manner stating something like:
"Listen, honey, saying I lack emotion is about the furthest thing from the truth these last few months. I know you are pretty wrapped up in what's going on in your head lately but please be aware that I have been absolutely devastated by your affair. I am hurt and remain hurting. I am struggling to eat, to sleep and to work. If I seem "happy" it's merely me attempting to get on with my life because I am confident that at the end of this nightmare that I am going to be OK. I worry about you, honey, but I can't fix this for you and I can't control you. You've got a lot of tough decisions to make and as much as I think you are messing up, I also love and respect you enough to maintain hope that you are mature and smart enough to figure this out."
My [joking] alternate response: "I'd rather seem emotionless than behave heartless"
It just seems to me sometime that when you ACT too detached, emotionless and happy, you merely feed a wayward spouse rationalizations and justifications for having and continuing their affair in the first place. Plus pretending could actually be considered game playing and/or trying to manipulate an outcome. Be you. Be a man that isn't afraid to honestly share YOUR feelings because you matter too. Just don't be a crying desperate wimp about it. Either be (or fake it until you make it) confidence KNOWING INTERNALLY that your wife is making a huge mistake and OM is a complete loser that pursues and dates married woman. He's a dead end street.
That's my idea of a 180...opposite of what you did before.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
W just called from work like she normally does to check on the kids. I was cordial and upbeat on the phone and kept the conversation about the kids or how work was going.
Near the end of the call, W said that she wants to schedule a discussion/dinner to talk about things. She said that she knows I'm doing good but it is hard for her right now. W said that she loves me so much and just wants to be fair when dividing things up. W also stated that it would be good just to talk.
I told W that it shouldn't be a problem and I would have to look at my schedule to see what night would work. --- W has had passing discussions with me about how she doesn't want to get a L involved if we were to get a D. I have spoken to a L in the past but it was only a consultation. I have never initiated the conversation about D but I also haven't been scared off by W if she brought it up. I have said things like, "I don't want a D but that looks like where we are headed..."
Our most recent conversation to this point was simply about sorting out the finances.
I wonder if W has mistaken my detachment during this period as my complicity in wanting a D?
Should I delay this discussion? How should I respond if she wants to talk about specifics regarding a D? What should be my approach from a LRT perspective?
Oh, and just to update a question from my previous journaling, W has most definitely not broken off contact with OM. It probably makes sense to delay any discussion with OM's wife until after this sit down conversation with my W, right?
Please don't miss my prior post. I'm still a newbie on DB.
Personally, I wouldn't discuss divorce with her at all. I'd just say:
"At this time....I don't want a divorce so if you do, then you pursue it all on your own. I'll hire my own attorney and he/she can discuss divorce with you or your attorney. I will not be a complicit participant in the destruction of OUR family"
As MWD teaches us. Affairs end in time. The less you participate in and delay any divorce the more likely your wife will:
1. end her affair 2. observe your changes 3. Come home
Pursuing and helping plan a divorce is more likely to result in a divorce.
Reserve the right to change your mind later (I edited to add "At this time"). There may come a day you are ready and willing to divorce her all by yourself.
An added bonus. Wayward wives have trouble running to the bank and going to the grocery store in the same day. They are fixated and monopolized by watching their phones and laptops for the next twitter, instant message and email joke. Throwing the entire divorce thing in their lap is a HUGE undertaking that they just can't handle along with maintaining their adulterous relationship. Your wife wants more than just your consent. She wants you to make it easy and quick for her. She wants YOU to handle the details. Don't. Just say "no, not interested", then distract with something off-topic like "how about those Braves".
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
Oh, and just to update a question from my previous journaling, W has most definitely not broken off contact with OM. It probably makes sense to delay any discussion with OM's wife until after this sit down conversation with my W, right?
No. Now, it appears you're just conflict avoiding.
Everyday you wait is another day OM's wife is most likely living in a lie.
It's like a band-aid. Just do it.
Besides.. This conversation isn't REALLY a conversation. Your wife (and OM) have an agenda. Your feelings, your best interests, your sanity are NOT on their agenda.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
Should I delay this discussion? How should I respond if she wants to talk about specifics regarding a D? What should be my approach from a LRT perspective?
I would not try to delay it. Approach it as a business transaction.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Ok, keep me in your prayers today. I plan on calling OM's wife to fill her in on the A.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2 M - 8/2008 W is not happy - 1/2014 W wants D - 9/2014 W moved out - 11/2014 D filed - 1/23/2015 D'ed - 2/25/2015 Gave X the Letter - 11/10/2015
Well, I did it. I called the OM's W. She was shocked and was in disbelief. She immediately want to meet to ensure I didn't make a mistake.
So I met OM's W at Panera and I showed her my proof of the A. She literally had no idea what was going on. It felt good to do the right thing!
I was able to console her a bit and we exchanged a bit of info/intel. She was obviously pretty shaken up.
I told OM's W that my goal is for the A to end and for both of us to save our families. She agreed.
She wasn't sure how she was going to handle but I just cautioned her to try to think things through and keep me updated. She agreed.
It sounds like OM's W will play it that she found out about the A from a friend of hers at the hospital. I told her that's fine but she doesn't have to protect me. OM's wife did ask me not say anything about our meeting to my W.
So, I am bunkering down and preparing for the pending hurricane. Wish me luck!
If W asks me if I told OM's W about the affair, how should I respond?
Oh, and thanks for the encouragement guys, especially GB! It feels great to do something proactive for a change.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
So, I am bunkering down and preparing for the pending hurricane. Wish me luck!
If W asks me if I told OM's W about the affair, how should I respond?
Oh, and thanks for the encouragement guys, especially GB! It feels great to do something proactive for a change.
Luck.
Understand that once your wife finds out (and she probably will soon) you will likely curse my name and wonder what in the heck you were thinking talking to OM's wife. You may come to FEEL like you regret this. That's just a feeling. It's not the truth. Trust that in the end, no matter how this turns out, you will be proud of yourself for doing the right thing.
Other times the affair partners go silent and don't even talk about it even between themselves. They will just pretend it doesn't effect them and ignore it as long as everyone leaves them alone.
Other times, but not that often, the OM's wife takes a month to actually accumulate her own independent evidence, compile her case and get her ducks in a row, financially and legally, before she confronts her wayward husband.
It's not bad if the affair partners think there is a spy at the hospital informing on them but even if that is what they are told, I'm sure your wife will be confronting you to see if you were the one that did it. Personally I denied involvement in exposing my wife's affair for over a year into recovery but many others feel that just owning it proudly is the way to go. I wouldn't be surprised if you wife confronts you as if they know and hope it's just you and hope you'll confess and they then don't have to sweat an informant at the hospital It's your choice whether you want to go the honest route or not. In my opinion, you are in a battle for your family and deception is a part of the Art of War. Spiritual warfare doesn't require you reveal all battle plans and methods to your enemy. They certainly aren't playing fair and you are trying to protect and save your wife. But either way...you can figure it out what is best for you. It's probably tougher for you to withhold the truth because you won't always know what OM's wife is up to or saying.
Then there is another issue with being honest.
Should you apologize for it?
Yes - An insincere apology doesn't really take much energy or effect much because the exposure has already happened so you can't really take it back so saying "Oh, my bad. I presumed she already knew and/or thought it only fair that OM's wife knew. Maybe I shouldn't have done that, I'm sorry"
No - Don't apologize for doing the right thing. Standing up for yourself and your actions unapologetically is attractive male behavior. OM's wife had a right to know and you told even if it meant angering your wife. You are not afraid of conflict and you had no intention of keeping their secret or being a co-conspirator in their affair with regards to OM's wife. She'd do the exact same thing if you were having an affair because it's the decent thing to do. Besides if OM genuinely has good intentions with your wife, then you did them a favor and he can now go about divorcing his wife to be with your wife. She should be pleased you've moved things along for her and OM.
BTW....probably 50-75% of the time an OM gets exposed to his spouse he dumps his side piece affair partner like a rock. He had no intention of divorcing his wife let alone getting caught. Your wife has just become too complicated a relationship to continue with. He didn't realize until today that he was gambling his family AND future income. Your wife's feelings just took second place to his desperation to save his family.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
You are going to be lying to someone, either your W, telling her you didn't meet the OM W or the OM W who you already told you wouldn't say anything to your W.
That seems problematic.
And I'm with Mr Bond. You were proactive, and you have an impending hurricane, but what have you done about you?
Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2 M - 8/2008 W is not happy - 1/2014 W wants D - 9/2014 W moved out - 11/2014 D filed - 1/23/2015 D'ed - 2/25/2015 Gave X the Letter - 11/10/2015
To answer your question, I have taken the past few months to take stock of where I and out relationship went off course.
I realized that I can be argumentative and when I argue, I did it to win. I realized that I wasn't always super supportive with my W's career aspirations. I realized I wasn't helpful with the day to day housework. I realized that I spent all of my free time with our family but none cultivating our M. I realized I was neglectful of my W's basic needs to feel loved, valued, and cherished. I realized that I had lost interest in pursuits that I valued and made me attractive to W.
I know the worst could be still to come...
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
W just called me three times the last hour. I let the first two go to vm. I finally answered the third call.
W was crying, said she was afraid of taking D4 to a birthday party on Saturday. W said all the friends who hated her would be at the party. And that all these friends think she's a bad person because they only know half the story.
Based on GB's advice, I decided to change my approach a bit.
I told W that I know how the fear can be paralyzing. I told W that I thought she was a good person, I was proud of her career accomplishments, and happy she found a strong voice. W responded by saying, "Why couldn't you have said that when were together?"
I replied by saying that I have had the privilege the last few months to reflect on the ways I failed in our M. W thanked me for saying that and acknowledged how hard it must be for me to say that.
W then said she was afraid of her own thoughts. (She has alluded to suicidal thoughts multiple times before). I told W that I think she should talk to IC. I told W that the kids need her and I want her to be happy. I ttold W that I knew how she felt and how scary those thoughts are. W said she wished these friends could see how they treated her and what that caused W to do. I told W that these friends love our family.
W then mentioned that she wished I could go to birthday party with her. I didn't respond because I knew that would send the wrong message to W if I agreed to go together.
When W had calmed down a bit, I told her I had to get back to work. ---- Obviously, OM's wife hasn't made her move yet. I thought it wise to get in some good PR before the stuff hits the fan with my W.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Mahhhty, Solid point about having to lie to someone. I understood my agreement with OM's W that I wouldn't tell my W first. I fully intend to tell my W the truth if she asks me about it however. And I'm pretty sure she will no matter what story OM's W tells OM.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
"I realized that I can be argumentative and when I argue, I did it to win. I realized that I wasn't always super supportive with my W's career aspirations. I realized I wasn't helpful with the day to day housework. I realized that I spent all of my free time with our family but none cultivating our M. I realized I was neglectful of my W's basic needs to feel loved, valued, and cherished. I realized that I had lost interest in pursuits that I valued and made me attractive to W."
All of these "realizations" are nice, but what ACTIONS have you taken to change them? If you read the books, you should know that you need that list to follow as a plan of action. If you don't, then all of your exposure will be for nothing.
What is your list?
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
So W called me tonight and asked if somehow screenshots got out of the text messages I uncovered back in January between her and OM. I asked her what she meant. W told me that OM's W confronted OM and mentioned some text messages.
I told W that I talked with OM's W today. And then she flips out.
"Why would I do that?" "You didn't understand the nature of our relationship" "Those TM's were 4 months old." "You're destroying another person's life/family."
I told W I did it because OM's W needed to know and I did it for our family.
Then W proceeds to tell me that I destroyed our family long before this happened. W says that I never tried to work on M when she was trying. I replied by saying how could we work on M when you were involved with OM. I reminded her that I told her I was willing to work on M as long as she agreed to NC. W then repeats that I didn't understand nature of her relationship with OM, etc.
Then W proceeds to threaten me and says she will fight for full custody of kids because I'm untrustworthy, etc. Expectedly, W blames all of this on my decision to tell OM's W.
W tells me that our M is definitely over and she will be filing for D. I tell W that I do not want a D and that she will have to initiate it. --- Later, W calls and begins asking for all my basic stats so she can file the divorce paperwork. I comply and am very casual on phone, even joking around with W. Then W starts asking for account numbers and I ask her if we can finish this up some other time. W agrees. --- Wow, is this a pretty common response to telling OM's W? My W seems pretty serious and determined.
What should my next step be?
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Bond, In response to your question, I have begun to reread DR tonight to make sure I am on point. Thanks for keeping me focused.
I will go through and make sure I am doing what I can to improve myself in these areas.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Very typical. I told you above you'd most likely regret it in the very near future. You've messed with her crack pipe and she doesn't like it.
Your marriage can survive her anger. It won't survive her continuing to see and work with a cheating married man every day whether they are still "dating" or not.
Most likely your wife is about to get dumped. She FEELS she needs to file immediately to both punish you and make sure OM knows SHE is committed. This is full on affair panic mode and where weak men like OM crumble. Your wife is desperate to put the affair back in the box. Too late. You crushed that today by being proactive.
Also...be ready for it. OM is in spin mode. He is going to TRY to convince his wife that you are some crazy vindictive jealous husband of a woman he works closely with and he's just being nice to because she (your wife) is being abused by you. He (and maybe your wife) will collaborate to try to say you doctored the stuff you showed her and it's all a fabrication. OM's wife loves her husband and will desperately WANT to believe him.
Good job being calm tonight.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
I should've known it was a mistake to answer a call from W at 2am. W says she can't sleep and everybody she has talked to said what I did was psychotic and abusive.
Huh? What?
Then W tells me that D4 hates me and is afraid to stay with me. W asks me why D4 would hate me so much?
(I have seen no evidence of this other than D4 acting out and screaming that she misses her mommy right after W drops her off)
I tell W that what she says it hurtful and untrue. Then I disconnect the call. --- Then W tries calling 3 times why I write this. --- I can see where W is headed with this now. Any advice? I have never or would never hurt my children. Why would W say this?
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
W tried to call a few more times last night. Didn't answer. I knew all that was on the other end was anger and abuse.
W sends text this morning that basically says: -we need to sort things out asap so we both can move on -W only interested in a professional relationship -any ideas about amicable separation are off table -we can if I want to attempt this/sorting out finances on our own -we can take care of biz, sign papers, and move on -W wants to know asap this morn or she will be speaking with L today
Here is the text I plan to send: "Good morning W. I am not ready to sign the papers yet. If you feel that you need to speak with a lawyer, I understand."
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
You need to be proactive and protect yourself from this woman. Do you have a lawyer? I suggest you get one, and also be ready for more of her craziness. It's time to protect yourself from the legal action she will be taking against you. Stay calm, patient and proactive.
Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2 M - 8/2008 W is not happy - 1/2014 W wants D - 9/2014 W moved out - 11/2014 D filed - 1/23/2015 D'ed - 2/25/2015 Gave X the Letter - 11/10/2015
Mahhhty, Thanks for the concern. I did speak to a L a few months ago but it was just over the phone. I made an appointment for today to review my case with this same L. --- I know you guys warned me but my W's spew has been relentless. It got to be so much this morning I had to take a personal day from work. It has made me feel similar to the way I felt earlier in the sitch when I was really struggling personally. I need to just check myself and get back on track for me.
Right now, I just don't see how our M would ever recover from this. And with the nonsense she has been alleging about me right now I'm not so sure I want our M to recover.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Also, I texted OM's W this morning to see how she was doing. Until now, she hasn't replied. Do you think this is cause for concern?
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Also, I texted OM's W this morning to see how she was doing. Until now, she hasn't replied. Do you think this is cause for concern?
Always read back in your thread because sometimes my posts and others take awhile to get approved. I'm thankful for the job the mods do protecting this forum.
OM's wife just had her D~day yesterday so her priorities might not be communicating with you. Sometimes they over communicate sometimes they don't. Most likely she'll get back to you before this post even goes through. Remember, though, just share facts and don't try to help or counsel her and don't tell her about DB. This is your safe harbor.
I want to help you by putting your mind to ease. This is very normal typical behavior. So normal it's almost funny how predictable they behave when the truth is exposed. Your wife's reaction is no worse than many others I've seen that eventually recovered. In fact, the worse they behave the better indication it is that you were really in far worse shape than you thought AND the more obviously it is that you hit your intended target with a bullseye.
Let's put some of her comments into perspective:
If she really cared about OM's life and family that "you ruined their family" is questionable. Then why did she have an affair with OM? Affairs ruin marriages, not the truth and honesty.
The "nature of their relationship" needs explaining. I personally would have had a digital recording device with me (or an app recording my cell phone calls) wherein I would have ask my wife to please explain what she means when she says "the nature of our relationship" because you can bet that OM's wife and you both wouldn't be OK with that nature. My best guess is that she thinks "the nature of their relationship" is like soul mate kindred spirits that can't be together everyday right now because OM has small children at home and he needs to keep the secret until the kids are older, or he can get his ducks in a row and hide a bunch of money and THEN they can be together. Their plan was to steal moments to be together over the next few years which will be easier to do while she's on her own and await a day they can be together without hiding their love. In other words, she thinks it's a Magical Mystical Relationship and not some seedy sexual lustful relationship. THAT was the "nature of their relationship" which you probably destroyed by telling OM's wife.
She wanted emotion from you the other day, well she got some. Sometimes you can deconstruct their illogical complaints and use them to justify your own appropriate behavior. Something like:
"I thought long and hard about what you said the other day about me not being emotional and I decided to get in touch with my emotions and discovered that I was devastated about your affair and angry at OM for pursuing my wife. I had a couple of choices, I could either stop by your work and confront OM in the hospital in front of everyone OR talk to his wife. I choose that later, more measured reasonable less emotional approach. Besides, if you really cared about OM's family you wouldn't have had an affair with him. Affairs hurt marriages and families much more than simply telling his wife the truth about her life."
^mentioning showing up at work and confronting OM is genius here because wayward wives love sharing everything you say with their OMs. OM will take that comment as a serious threat to his safety because he inherently knows he deserves a beat down for what he's done and doing with your wife. Your wife will unwittingly be telling OM something against her best interests which will further motivate OM to dump your wife, quit his job and go home and work on his marriage without you ever having to really do anything. You are just playing on HIS fears.
I know this period [censored] but this IS progress. You are no longer a Serf waiting to see how the master (your wife) will behave and react. You are now the knight proactively fighting for you family. Sometimes you win and sometimes you don't. We can't predict what cases turn around and which don't but your odds have increased significantly just by being her at DB and being proactive.
As far as a meeting, put it off until sunday. The name of the game is delay, delay, delay. Instead of her rushing off to meet an attorney. Have her wait until sunday when she can "talk" to you. This gives her 3 days to calm down from a 10 to a 9 or 8 on the disgust scale and then you can drop your "I don't discuss divorce. I talk reconciliation. If you want to pursue a divorce that's all on you. I don't want any part in the destruction of our family". Hopefully, then she'll be too busy to meet with lawyers as the realization that OM isn't talking to her anymore will become her primary problem and not you.
On a different note ~~~ When you married, you became "One Flesh" with your wife. Any and all spirits that attack her are within you as well. This is spiritual warfare. Resist.
A SPOKEN Prayer for a Hedge of Protection:
Dear Father,
Thank you for the blessings you’ve bestowed on me. You are the protector, the truth and the light. In this time of need, my wife, whom I love, has been involved with a man who does not share the Christian values that we hold so dear. In your name I pray for a hedge around my wife and I and ask that you protect us from these evil forces that are at work in our lives. May you bless us and our family and keep us all safe in this time of need.
Amen
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
Journaling: --- W just called to talk again about splitting up finances and why I wasn't ready to move forward. I told W that I think it's best for me to be patient, to think things through, and review what the best outcomes are for the kids, her, and I. W asked me how I was going to do that. I told W that I was meeting with L today. W replied by asking me if I wasn't going to split everything 50/50. I told W that it was my understanding that it worked that why but I wasn't sure. --- W then told me that her boss has already called her about the A at work. W told me that she's afraid she might lose her job. W tells me that it would be my fault if she did.
W asked me if I regretted my decision to tell OM's W. I responded by saying that I have thought about the decision a lot the past day.
W then told me that the sad part about all of this is that she actually has a date with another OM. I paused a bit and then told W that I do care about her and want the best for her and I love our children more than anything. Then I told W that those truths will guide my decisions going forward.
W wanted to keep talking but I told her that I needed to go and wished her a good day.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Are you being Mr Nice Guy? I believe it is time for you to be confident and strong. The A was her choosing, it is time she deals with the consequences that has on her life.
Its time for you to truly go LRT... You don't need to be at her disposal. Stop waking up at 2 AM to get her phone call. Sometimes the worst thing you can do is pick up the phone.
Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2 M - 8/2008 W is not happy - 1/2014 W wants D - 9/2014 W moved out - 11/2014 D filed - 1/23/2015 D'ed - 2/25/2015 Gave X the Letter - 11/10/2015
Journaling: --- W just called to talk again about splitting up finances and why I wasn't ready to move forward. I told W that I think it's best for me to be patient, to think things through, and review what the best outcomes are for the kids, her, and I. W asked me how I was going to do that. I told W that I was meeting with L today. W replied by asking me if I wasn't going to split everything 50/50. I told W that it was my understanding that it worked that why but I wasn't sure. --- W then told me that her boss has already called her about the A at work. W told me that she's afraid she might lose her job. W tells me that it would be my fault if she did.
W asked me if I regretted my decision to tell OM's W. I responded by saying that I have thought about the decision a lot the past day.
W then told me that the sad part about all of this is that she actually has a date with another OM. I paused a bit and then told W that I do care about her and want the best for her and I love our children more than anything. Then I told W that those truths will guide my decisions going forward.
W wanted to keep talking but I told her that I needed to go and wished her a good day.
If she loses her job =
1. It would be HER fault for violating an ethical standard set by the hospital forbidding inappropriate workplace relationships. Your telling OM's wife has nothing to do with her job or the rules of her job.
2. If she loses her job....it would absolutely give you a much better chance at recovering your marriage....in time.
Most likely she's bluffing about the job AND certainly, the date. She's very vested in punishing you for exposing because you hit the bullseye. She wants to dwell on this because, in her warped mind, it helps her justify and rationalize leaving you, divorcing you, hating you and believing you two could never work out. This will pass. Especially if the affair truly ends and even faster if she leaves that workplace.
The second OM comments are most likely just a further attempt to hurt you. Take it as an indication again that you've really hurt the affair. The more you hurt it....the madder they get. You've done well.
It's a good thing she's at her parents house. Seem to recall you saying they supported you. Might be a good time to call them and let them know you are doing OK and merely did what you think was right and what you fully expect and know their daughter would have done to you if you were the one cheating on her with a married work colleague. Don't blow it up more than it is. You did what you had to do. Redirect to more pressing problems....you can't take it back even if you wanted to.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
When W first mentioned S, I went bonkers trying to prove to her I could change just like everybody does. But I believe W is referring to a period after the A was discovered. In her mind W believes she was trying or that's how she justifying it. And by trying she means scheduling a date or asking to spend time alone with me or initiating physical contact. All of these only came about when I began to pull away. However, I didn't think it was appropriate to spend alone time with W if she was still involved with OM. A few times W would bring up our M and I told W that I would work on M 100% and put in all the necessary work as long as she would agree to NC with OM. On each occasion, she got defensive about OM and said that he was the only person she could talk to. I even proposed just dating each other for a month or two. W said she would think about it but never brought it up again.
Did I do something wrong here? If W was really serious about trying to work on M, why wouldn't she let OM go?
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
So I was in the bank parking lot sorting out our checking account and who pulls in but my W. We both agree that since we are there at the same time we might as well sign the paperwork to remove W from joint account. As we are sitting in waiting area, we make small talk and I am being cordial with W, even making a few jokes. A couple of times I even saw tears in her eyes as we waited or conversed pleasantly. I talked a little bit about my time with my L, etc.
About 10 minutes later, the clerk called us in and we completed the paperwork. When we were done, I walked W to her car and wished her a good day.
I know it doesn't mean anything but what a coincidence.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
As much as you want to be hopeful the tears are for or about you, it's more likely it's all about the OM. Glad she's calmed down enough to be cordial today. In less than 18 hours it appears she's toned it down.
Even so, this is a roller coaster. Imagine the first few days of cold turkey for an drug addict in rehab. There are good moments and bad moments...but you've no choice other than endure.
Not to fixate on OM's wife, but did she call or text you back. If your wife's boss knows it sounds like something happened at work between them all. OM didn't tell his boss himself unless he had to. Be nice to know what's going on. Tough to fight a war without information about the enemy.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
As much as you want to be hopeful the tears are for or about you, it's more likely it's all about the OM. Glad she's calmed down enough to be cordial today. In less than 18 hours it appears she's toned it down.
Even so, this is a roller coaster. Imagine the first few days of cold turkey for an drug addict in rehab. There are good moments and bad moments...but you've no choice other than endure.
Not to fixate on OM's wife, but did she call or text you back. If your wife's boss knows it sounds like something happened at work between them all. OM didn't tell his boss himself unless he had to. Be nice to know what's going on. Tough to fight a war without information about the enemy.
No, OM's W never texted back. Troubles me a bit. Yesterday she pledged to keep in touch. Makes me wonder a bit what's going on. I know OM's W has friends at the hospital so I'm sure that's how my W's boss found out. OM is a doctor so there's no chance of him being fired.
Originally Posted By: MrBond
"But I believe W is referring to a period after the A was discovered."
Mindreading.
What about before the A? Did she ever try talking to you about things or recommend C?
The only time W ever mentioned C was a week or two before I discovered the A. And my intel leads me to believe that the seeds of the A had already been planted by this time.
After I discovered the A, W states that she tried to tell me before it ever got to this point. We had our arguments like everybody else but I can't recall any other serious sit down conversations.
In fact, W told me just the other day that when she purchased her 2015 planner in November, she circled our wedding anniversary and wrote "7 years of wedded bliss."
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
If your wife gets fired after you internally jump for joy, this is what you need to do:
Immediately be super supportive of your wife and MAD at the hospital. How dare they fire her and let OM keep his job. He is the superior so if anyone gets fired it should be him. Then make an appointment at a lawyer and pursue suing the hospital for this. Sexual harassment, etc. Your lawyer can throw the book at them. The hospital doesn't care. They have insurance for this. They will pay up even if it's just a nuisance settlement. They will do whatever the doctors want and walk all over whomever they want and let their lawyers sort out the mess.
BUT....this is a huge opportunity for you to be on her side bonding with her in her anger at the hospital (and OM) for this huge injustice. You and her get to be a team against the hospital AND OM. Not only did OM dump her but he got her fired too. This would be the complete death nell of the affair and you get to step in an be the knight in shining armor coming to her emotional rescue.
Oh, I found this by one of my favorite mod posters about what your 180's should look like (supporting my suggestion that displaying more emotion was OK in your situation as long as you aren't a wimp about it):
Originally Posted By: sgctxok
What is a 180.....?
A complete OPPOSITE of
your MORE OF THE SAME behaviors
your partner's stereotype of you
the things that irritate your partner about you
We discussed the More of the Same behaviors in a different thread....what would be THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE of that?
What are your partner's stereotypes of you.....and what could you do to completely blow that stereotype?
What about you irritates your partner? What can you do that is the opposite of that?
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
If your wife gets fired after you internally jump for joy, this is what you need to do:
Immediately be super supportive of your wife and MAD at the hospital. How dare they fire her and let OM keep his job. He is the superior so if anyone gets fired it should be him. Then make an appointment at a lawyer and pursue suing the hospital for this. Sexual harassment, etc. Your lawyer can throw the book at them. The hospital doesn't care. They have insurance for this. They will pay up even if it's just a nuisance settlement. They will do whatever the doctors want and walk all over whomever they want and let their lawyers sort out the mess.
BUT....this is a huge opportunity for you to be on her side bonding with her in her anger at the hospital (and OM) for this huge injustice. You and her get to be a team against the hospital AND OM. Not only did OM dump her but he got her fired too. This would be the complete death nell of the affair and you get to step in an be the knight in shining armor coming to her emotional rescue.
I gotta chime and and say I disagree. Doesnt mean I am right but I disagree with the concept of siding with your wife for a 'bonding' moment. First, she likely broke the rules of the hospital, so yea, she should be fired. Who cares what happens to the OM. This is about her. Second, she needs to begin to feel the consequences of her actions. She did wrong, and now she may have to pay the piper. Do not let her anger and blame on you affect how you handle what happens to her. She needs to hit bottom before she will ever begin to think about seriously working on her marriage. Right now her mind is clouded with emotions...anger, sadness, confusion. Missing from there is undying love for you. Missing from there is respect for you. These emotions are not going to just appear because you start saying the hospital is wrong for doing what I as a boss would have done to your W AND the OM if they broke a major rule. Your job is not to comfort your wife right now. Your job is to let your W's fantasy world self destruct and you need to be as far away from it as you can.
Again, no disrespect to Georgia Bulldog. I just disagree.
Me: 42 W: 32 Married 7 years together 8.5 S1: 7 S2:7 Bomb #1: 09-16-13 Recon #1: 11/13 A discovered 04-03-2014 W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me I filed D 12-02-2014 S 05-31-14 Divorced 5-19-16
If your wife gets fired after you internally jump for joy, this is what you need to do:
Immediately be super supportive of your wife and MAD at the hospital. How dare they fire her and let OM keep his job. He is the superior so if anyone gets fired it should be him. Then make an appointment at a lawyer and pursue suing the hospital for this. Sexual harassment, etc. Your lawyer can throw the book at them. The hospital doesn't care. They have insurance for this. They will pay up even if it's just a nuisance settlement. They will do whatever the doctors want and walk all over whomever they want and let their lawyers sort out the mess.
BUT....this is a huge opportunity for you to be on her side bonding with her in her anger at the hospital (and OM) for this huge injustice. You and her get to be a team against the hospital AND OM. Not only did OM dump her but he got her fired too. This would be the complete death nell of the affair and you get to step in an be the knight in shining armor coming to her emotional rescue.
I gotta chime and and say I disagree. Doesnt mean I am right but I disagree with the concept of siding with your wife for a 'bonding' moment. First, she likely broke the rules of the hospital, so yea, she should be fired. Who cares what happens to the OM. This is about her. Second, she needs to begin to feel the consequences of her actions. She did wrong, and now she may have to pay the piper. Do not let her anger and blame on you affect how you handle what happens to her. She needs to hit bottom before she will ever begin to think about seriously working on her marriage. Right now her mind is clouded with emotions...anger, sadness, confusion. Missing from there is undying love for you. Missing from there is respect for you. These emotions are not going to just appear because you start saying the hospital is wrong for doing what I as a boss would have done to your W AND the OM if they broke a major rule. Your job is not to comfort your wife right now. Your job is to let your W's fantasy world self destruct and you need to be as far away from it as you can.
Again, no disrespect to Georgia Bulldog. I just disagree.
I'm glad this discussion is taking place. I was rereading DR tonight and I wasn't sure what my approach towards W should be going forward. I know W views me as the scum of the earth and blames me for all of her problems. I know that any pursuit right now would be repulsive to W. Plus I don't know where things stand with OM.
Let's just assume W keeps her job, but even if she doesn't, I still feel like the best approach to take is one of LRT, GALing, 180s, and intense personal growth.
I have spoken with a L but I have intention of filing for D right now
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
"I realized that I can be argumentative and when I argue, I did it to win. I realized that I wasn't always super supportive with my W's career aspirations. I realized I wasn't helpful with the day to day housework. I realized that I spent all of my free time with our family but none cultivating our M. I realized I was neglectful of my W's basic needs to feel loved, valued, and cherished. I realized that I had lost interest in pursuits that I valued and made me attractive to W."
All of these "realizations" are nice, but what ACTIONS have you taken to change them? If you read the books, you should know that you need that list to follow as a plan of action. If you don't, then all of your exposure will be for nothing.
What is your list?
I wanted to reply now to Mrbond now that I've had some time to reflect...
*I don't want to be controlling in my relationships -stop trying to make my point at expense of hearing other's voice -stop saying the same thing over and over -will talk less and listen more -will just let go -will ask and listen for other's input
*I want to be less critical of others -stop analyzing other's words/actions looking for mistakes -will be on the lookout for positivity -will go out of my way to express appreciation -will focus on small victories
*I want to pursue more personal goals and hobbies -will make a daily effort to do something interesting or exciting -will spend more time with others who stimulate me -will spend more time doing things out of my comfort zone
*I want to show more support for orher's achievements and aspirations -will show genuine interest in other's goals and successes -will ask others for updates on said goals and successes -will volunteer my time to allow other to work towards achieving these items
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
That is good work Defacto. I think you will need to dig a little deeper on what you will need to do or not do in each of these situations, or how to flag the situation to yourself so you can change your response. Changing in this manner is the hardest part, b/c many people act on impulse.
Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2 M - 8/2008 W is not happy - 1/2014 W wants D - 9/2014 W moved out - 11/2014 D filed - 1/23/2015 D'ed - 2/25/2015 Gave X the Letter - 11/10/2015
So I was in the bank parking lot sorting out our checking account and who pulls in but my W. We both agree that since we are there at the same time we might as well sign the paperwork to remove W from joint account. As we are sitting in waiting area, we make small talk and I am being cordial with W, even making a few jokes. A couple of times I even saw tears in her eyes as we waited or conversed pleasantly. I talked a little bit about my time with my L, etc.
This spoke to me. I made my X laugh at multiple mediation appointments, the signing of D paperwork, at the House REFI meeting, and multiple other meetings. I hate to discourage positive thought, but it did not help me in anyway that I know of.
Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2 M - 8/2008 W is not happy - 1/2014 W wants D - 9/2014 W moved out - 11/2014 D filed - 1/23/2015 D'ed - 2/25/2015 Gave X the Letter - 11/10/2015
So I was in the bank parking lot sorting out our checking account and who pulls in but my W. We both agree that since we are there at the same time we might as well sign the paperwork to remove W from joint account. As we are sitting in waiting area, we make small talk and I am being cordial with W, even making a few jokes. A couple of times I even saw tears in her eyes as we waited or conversed pleasantly. I talked a little bit about my time with my L, etc.
This spoke to me. I made my X laugh at multiple mediation appointments, the signing of D paperwork, at the House REFI meeting, and multiple other meetings. I hate to discourage positive thought, but it did not help me in anyway that I know of.
Totally agree. Not reading anything into it. Just felt good to be myself. It helped set me at ease for the rest of the day
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Just got off phone with W. She just met with her L. W said that her L, because it would be such a straightforward case, would handle it for both of us for a nominal fee. I didn't think that this was even legal?!
One, I don't think this serves my best interest in delaying the D. Two, while it may be cheaper, because I do believe our D, if it happens, would be fairly straightforward in regards to custody and financials, I still think it's in my best interest to have my own L.
Anyone ever heard of this? Would my W's L be acting as a mediator only?
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
A mediator can't offer any advice unless both of you are there. Her L is not your mediator. Get your own L. OR both agree to go to a mediator together.
Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2 M - 8/2008 W is not happy - 1/2014 W wants D - 9/2014 W moved out - 11/2014 D filed - 1/23/2015 D'ed - 2/25/2015 Gave X the Letter - 11/10/2015
In an effort to delay, you MAY want to agree to meet with her attorney to discuss the prospect of him representing both of you. I think they may call it collaborative divorce depending on the state.
You certainly won't be going this route but your wife and the attorney don't have to know this.
If you say "no" to this proposition today, your wife will just pay him and he'll prepare a case and file ASAP (before you do...since so many attorney's think filing first is an advantage).
If you say "I don't know, let's set up a meeting" you can prolong this process and maybe get your wife to settle down about the exposure and not bother filing. Once the affair being over sinks in...getting this divorce done ASAP won't be such a pressing issue. She'll be depressed instead and unmotivated to pursue this course of action.
Therefore, agree to meet with "her" attorney. Listen to what they have to say. Maybe even get them to document their "reasonable" position. (this could be great evidence if she later claims you are abusive or a drug addict or something and tries to take full custody of the kids as an act of vengeance). Then leave the office saying you'll think about it. Then, do nothing. Don't talk divorce and wait to see if she ever gets around to actually filing. If she does....THEN hire your own attorney.
It's also possible you could say "yes", make the attorney both of your attorneys and THEN, don't agree or sign anything. Then, I believe, that attorney can't just represent her in a separate divorce case because he was also your attorney for a brief moment. She'll have to find another attorney to file the case.
Delay. You might buy yourself a couple weeks here before she files. She's mad and being reactive. She wasn't in a hurry to file last week so maybe she'll drop the notion here in a short time once this all sinks in. Time is on your side. Drag it out.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
If your wife gets fired after you internally jump for joy, this is what you need to do:
Immediately be super supportive of your wife and MAD at the hospital. How dare they fire her and let OM keep his job. He is the superior so if anyone gets fired it should be him. Then make an appointment at a lawyer and pursue suing the hospital for this. Sexual harassment, etc. Your lawyer can throw the book at them. The hospital doesn't care. They have insurance for this. They will pay up even if it's just a nuisance settlement. They will do whatever the doctors want and walk all over whomever they want and let their lawyers sort out the mess.
BUT....this is a huge opportunity for you to be on her side bonding with her in her anger at the hospital (and OM) for this huge injustice. You and her get to be a team against the hospital AND OM. Not only did OM dump her but he got her fired too. This would be the complete death nell of the affair and you get to step in an be the knight in shining armor coming to her emotional rescue.
I gotta chime and and say I disagree. Doesnt mean I am right but I disagree with the concept of siding with your wife for a 'bonding' moment. First, she likely broke the rules of the hospital, so yea, she should be fired. Who cares what happens to the OM. This is about her. Second, she needs to begin to feel the consequences of her actions. She did wrong, and now she may have to pay the piper. Do not let her anger and blame on you affect how you handle what happens to her. She needs to hit bottom before she will ever begin to think about seriously working on her marriage. Right now her mind is clouded with emotions...anger, sadness, confusion. Missing from there is undying love for you. Missing from there is respect for you. These emotions are not going to just appear because you start saying the hospital is wrong for doing what I as a boss would have done to your W AND the OM if they broke a major rule. Your job is not to comfort your wife right now. Your job is to let your W's fantasy world self destruct and you need to be as far away from it as you can.
Again, no disrespect to Georgia Bulldog. I just disagree.
Thank you for the differing perspective.
I'll try to be quick here.
If Defacto and his wife are Christians I don't see how Defacto's role here is to be the one dishing out consequences or abandoning his wife IF she needs him and his support. I should clarify that he should NOT run around "pursuing" her to support her IF she gets fired but it COULD present an opportunity for him to 180 her and BE supportive of her getting fired IF she wants his support. I do think it matters if OM doesn't get fired and his wife does. The rules should be applied equally to men and women, doctors and support staff. If anything, it sounds like HE was the superior (the doctor) and him using his position of power and prestige to "prey" on the impressionable support staff (I know she's an adult who made her choices but these Doctors are treated like Gods sometimes at these hospitals) is a situation that MAY call for the consideration of seeking legal action for unjust termination. Rules need to be applied fairly. They don't have to actually sue anyone for Defacto to be supportive and understanding and easily join her in her upset towards OM.
There are certainly risks to taking a loving supportive approach towards a wayward wife. I've been around long enough to see a lot of divorced guys regret every effort they ever made to save their marriages and think a wayward spouse needs to somehow hit rock bottom and be broken like a dog or horse before a betrayed husband should ever even let them back into the marriage. These men rightly want to protect a betrayed husband from making the same painful mistakes they did when often happiness and recovery are just a simple divorce away. But on the other side I've met and helped many recovered marriages where the betrayed husband was loving and supportive (without being enabling or groveling) throughout much of the ordeal. There's often a misnomer, in my opinion, that you can't LOVE your wife back into the marriage and I'm living proof that it's possible.
In my opinion, former wayward wives don't feel regretful for their behavior UNTIL they fall back in love with their husbands. They fall back in love with their husband when their husband behaves in an attractive manner (non-enabling, no bull) AND he meets her most important emotional needs in the way she likes them met.
I also think that if Defacto's wife gets fired.....the affair is OVER. OM doctor got her fired for breaking the secret code that "what happens at General Hospital stays at General Hospital". His wife isn't calling Defacto back because now Defacto and his wife are HER enemies. She wants Defacto's wife fired because, from her point of view, Defacto's wife is preying upon her wealthy doctor ticket and he's certainly not giving up his job. OM doctor lives at the hospital. That is where he socializes and fraternizes with women. He is not going to continue a relationship with Defacto's wife outside the hospital. Hence, the affair would be over. Defacto's wife is going to be going through withdrawal and need support. If she doesn't want Defacto's support (she's certainly going to be blaming him for causing this) he shouldn't pursue it. Like you said, "you need to be as far away from it as you can". But if Defacto's wife will allow it or seeks it....I think he should do a 180 from way he was before and BE SUPPORTIVE of her to a modest extent. The are separated so he can "detach" in the safety of his home so such support would be very limited anyway.
It's a fine line. That's why your perspective, Old Pilot, is so valuable. If Defacto gets in too much with his heart or gets needy and beggy without firm boundaries, his wife MAY walk all over him and it WILL be crazy making (fog talk, blame shifting and gas lighting) and IF he, in fact, ends up divorced he could be very bitter and upset about taking such actions (not calling anyone bitter). On the other hand, IF he acts lovingly and compassionately towards his wife right now and in the coming weeks, with as detached a perspective as possible, and he recovers his marriage, even if his wife trounces all over him for a bit (through the withdrawal period, in particular) he won't regret taking that approach at all.
Personally, I was able to lovingly detach from my wife. I'd read enough to understand her perspective and that she was pretty much out of her mind. I didn't pray that she would be broken but I did pray that she would repent. I wasn't in love with my wife EITHER but for our children's sake I was willing to TRY to see if we could repair and rebuild our LOVING marriage. I believed my wife's behavior was an anomaly; but, I certainly wasn't sure at the time. I didn't abandon her rather I spent as much time with her as I could mostly just listening and letting her talk it out. And then it turned into us both learning how to be married and in love. And now my wife and I share our testimony and help other couples overcome infidelity through our church in our real lives.
This is Defacto's call. Some guys can take more than others. It's completely disrespectful that your wife thinks she's in love with someone else, hates you and blames YOU for it. She is behaving completely unloveable and as long as she remains at that hospital working with OM, the affair continues and you SHOULD stay as far away from her as possible while continuing your GAL's, 180's and detaching. But, if the affair is actually over and "no contact" in place, in my opinion, piecing begins and it's worth the risk to start engaging, in a still happy go lucky confident but yet detached manner, with your wife. Although sometimes wayward husbands coming running back to their betrayed wives all apologetic and begging for a second chance; this almost never happens with wayward wives. They get attracted back to the marriage by strong behaving, non-enabling (like Defacto calling OM's wife), and husband's that love them when no one else would or should. THEN, once they break through the "I just could never love you or have sex with you again phase" they begin to have feelings for their betrayed husband again and THEN develop empathy and regret for what they've done to him. THEN, they are sorry and in awe that you actually did that for them (something they certainly FEEL the would have never likely done for you).
In my opinion, if you continue ACTING distant, non-emotive and non-caring seeming, even after the affair ends, she'll mind read and presume you don't care, got what you deserved (her cheating) and will continue on her wayward path with OM#2 and/or an unjust divorce.
It's a difficult position to be in. Putting your heart back out there and loving someone who certainly isn't loving you one bit and you MAY lose. But for me, I felt (as I watched my children sleep) that I'd have more regrets if I didn't try. I felt my family was worth it. I thought my wife was worth it. I also knew I was going to be OK either way whereas I knew my wife wouldn't be and my young kids needed their mother. I kind of looked at it as a rescue mission. My wife played with matches and was now in a burning building. I could wait for her to come out or be stuck in their, burn to death and learn her lesson, or I could run into the smoke and flames and try to save her, risking my own safety and health in the process.
so much for being quick.
Your call Defacto.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
Anyone ever heard of this? Would my W's L be acting as a mediator only?
I think this is fairly standard practice for the opposing counsel to try to get you to agree without having lawyers.
I agree it more than likely will not be in your best interest.
Ideally, I would think that if it was inevitable that M would end in D, mediation seems like the way to go for now as both W and I seem to agree on most of the financials. In our state, it's no fault so it's 50/50 no matter what.
Originally Posted By: Georgia Bulldogs
In an effort to delay, you MAY want to agree to meet with her attorney to discuss the prospect of him representing both of you. I think they may call it collaborative divorce depending on the state.
You certainly won't be going this route but your wife and the attorney don't have to know this.
If you say "no" to this proposition today, your wife will just pay him and he'll prepare a case and file ASAP (before you do...since so many attorney's think filing first is an advantage).
If you say "I don't know, let's set up a meeting" you can prolong this process and maybe get your wife to settle down about the exposure and not bother filing. Once the affair being over sinks in...getting this divorce done ASAP won't be such a pressing issue. She'll be depressed instead and unmotivated to pursue this course of action.
Therefore, agree to meet with "her" attorney. Listen to what they have to say. Maybe even get them to document their "reasonable" position. (this could be great evidence if she later claims you are abusive or a drug addict or something and tries to take full custody of the kids as an act of vengeance). Then leave the office saying you'll think about it. Then, do nothing. Don't talk divorce and wait to see if she ever gets around to actually filing. If she does....THEN hire your own attorney.
It's also possible you could say "yes", make the attorney both of your attorneys and THEN, don't agree or sign anything. Then, I believe, that attorney can't just represent her in a separate divorce case because he was also your attorney for a brief moment. She'll have to find another attorney to file the case.
Delay. You might buy yourself a couple weeks here before she files. She's mad and being reactive. She wasn't in a hurry to file last week so maybe she'll drop the notion here in a short time once this all sinks in. Time is on your side. Drag it out.
I like this idea because it appears that I'm not being adversarial or controlling AND it buys me time.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
It's a fine line. That's why your perspective, Old Pilot, is so valuable.
Just to set the record straight, you were quoting Pilot. Mr Pilot is NOT old, I am the only one OLD around here..... LOL
OMG~~~~my bad.
Thought his user name was "Old Pilot" so I wasn't really referring to my perception of his age though I do see now he's just a young man according to his signature.
My apologies. Thanks for bringing that to my attention and congrats on the new assignment as mod. It's a tough very political job.
GB <~~~~~ REALLY OLD
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
If your wife gets fired after you internally jump for joy, this is what you need to do:
Immediately be super supportive of your wife and MAD at the hospital. How dare they fire her and let OM keep his job. He is the superior so if anyone gets fired it should be him. Then make an appointment at a lawyer and pursue suing the hospital for this. Sexual harassment, etc. Your lawyer can throw the book at them. The hospital doesn't care. They have insurance for this. They will pay up even if it's just a nuisance settlement. They will do whatever the doctors want and walk all over whomever they want and let their lawyers sort out the mess.
BUT....this is a huge opportunity for you to be on her side bonding with her in her anger at the hospital (and OM) for this huge injustice. You and her get to be a team against the hospital AND OM. Not only did OM dump her but he got her fired too. This would be the complete death nell of the affair and you get to step in an be the knight in shining armor coming to her emotional rescue.
I gotta chime and and say I disagree. Doesnt mean I am right but I disagree with the concept of siding with your wife for a 'bonding' moment. First, she likely broke the rules of the hospital, so yea, she should be fired. Who cares what happens to the OM. This is about her. Second, she needs to begin to feel the consequences of her actions. She did wrong, and now she may have to pay the piper. Do not let her anger and blame on you affect how you handle what happens to her. She needs to hit bottom before she will ever begin to think about seriously working on her marriage. Right now her mind is clouded with emotions...anger, sadness, confusion. Missing from there is undying love for you. Missing from there is respect for you. These emotions are not going to just appear because you start saying the hospital is wrong for doing what I as a boss would have done to your W AND the OM if they broke a major rule. Your job is not to comfort your wife right now. Your job is to let your W's fantasy world self destruct and you need to be as far away from it as you can.
Again, no disrespect to Georgia Bulldog. I just disagree.
Thank you for the differing perspective.
I'll try to be quick here.
If Defacto and his wife are Christians I don't see how Defacto's role here is to be the one dishing out consequences or abandoning his wife IF she needs him and his support. I should clarify that he should NOT run around "pursuing" her to support her IF she gets fired but it COULD present an opportunity for him to 180 her and BE supportive of her getting fired IF she wants his support. I do think it matters if OM doesn't get fired and his wife does. The rules should be applied equally to men and women, doctors and support staff. If anything, it sounds like HE was the superior (the doctor) and him using his position of power and prestige to "prey" on the impressionable support staff (I know she's an adult who made her choices but these Doctors are treated like Gods sometimes at these hospitals) is a situation that MAY call for the consideration of seeking legal action for unjust termination. Rules need to be applied fairly. They don't have to actually sue anyone for Defacto to be supportive and understanding and easily join her in her upset towards OM.
There are certainly risks to taking a loving supportive approach towards a wayward wife. I've been around long enough to see a lot of divorced guys regret every effort they ever made to save their marriages and think a wayward spouse needs to somehow hit rock bottom and be broken like a dog or horse before a betrayed husband should ever even let them back into the marriage. These men rightly want to protect a betrayed husband from making the same painful mistakes they did when often happiness and recovery are just a simple divorce away. But on the other side I've met and helped many recovered marriages where the betrayed husband was loving and supportive (without being enabling or groveling) throughout much of the ordeal. There's often a misnomer, in my opinion, that you can't LOVE your wife back into the marriage and I'm living proof that it's possible.
In my opinion, former wayward wives don't feel regretful for their behavior UNTIL they fall back in love with their husbands. They fall back in love with their husband when their husband behaves in an attractive manner (non-enabling, no bull) AND he meets her most important emotional needs in the way she likes them met.
I also think that if Defacto's wife gets fired.....the affair is OVER. OM doctor got her fired for breaking the secret code that "what happens at General Hospital stays at General Hospital". His wife isn't calling Defacto back because now Defacto and his wife are HER enemies. She wants Defacto's wife fired because, from her point of view, Defacto's wife is preying upon her wealthy doctor ticket and he's certainly not giving up his job. OM doctor lives at the hospital. That is where he socializes and fraternizes with women. He is not going to continue a relationship with Defacto's wife outside the hospital. Hence, the affair would be over. Defacto's wife is going to be going through withdrawal and need support. If she doesn't want Defacto's support (she's certainly going to be blaming him for causing this) he shouldn't pursue it. Like you said, "you need to be as far away from it as you can". But if Defacto's wife will allow it or seeks it....I think he should do a 180 from way he was before and BE SUPPORTIVE of her to a modest extent. The are separated so he can "detach" in the safety of his home so such support would be very limited anyway.
It's a fine line. That's why your perspective, Old Pilot, is so valuable. If Defacto gets in too much with his heart or gets needy and beggy without firm boundaries, his wife MAY walk all over him and it WILL be crazy making (fog talk, blame shifting and gas lighting) and IF he, in fact, ends up divorced he could be very bitter and upset about taking such actions (not calling anyone bitter). On the other hand, IF he acts lovingly and compassionately towards his wife right now and in the coming weeks, with as detached a perspective as possible, and he recovers his marriage, even if his wife trounces all over him for a bit (through the withdrawal period, in particular) he won't regret taking that approach at all.
Personally, I was able to lovingly detach from my wife. I'd read enough to understand her perspective and that she was pretty much out of her mind. I didn't pray that she would be broken but I did pray that she would repent. I wasn't in love with my wife EITHER but for our children's sake I was willing to TRY to see if we could repair and rebuild our LOVING marriage. I believed my wife's behavior was an anomaly; but, I certainly wasn't sure at the time. I didn't abandon her rather I spent as much time with her as I could mostly just listening and letting her talk it out. And then it turned into us both learning how to be married and in love. And now my wife and I share our testimony and help other couples overcome infidelity through our church in our real lives.
This is Defacto's call. Some guys can take more than others. It's completely disrespectful that your wife thinks she's in love with someone else, hates you and blames YOU for it. She is behaving completely unloveable and as long as she remains at that hospital working with OM, the affair continues and you SHOULD stay as far away from her as possible while continuing your GAL's, 180's and detaching. But, if the affair is actually over and "no contact" in place, in my opinion, piecing begins and it's worth the risk to start engaging, in a still happy go lucky confident but yet detached manner, with your wife. Although sometimes wayward husbands coming running back to their betrayed wives all apologetic and begging for a second chance; this almost never happens with wayward wives. They get attracted back to the marriage by strong behaving, non-enabling (like Defacto calling OM's wife), and husband's that love them when no one else would or should. THEN, once they break through the "I just could never love you or have sex with you again phase" they begin to have feelings for their betrayed husband again and THEN develop empathy and regret for what they've done to him. THEN, they are sorry and in awe that you actually did that for them (something they certainly FEEL the would have never likely done for you).
In my opinion, if you continue ACTING distant, non-emotive and non-caring seeming, even after the affair ends, she'll mind read and presume you don't care, got what you deserved (her cheating) and will continue on her wayward path with OM#2 and/or an unjust divorce.
It's a difficult position to be in. Putting your heart back out there and loving someone who certainly isn't loving you one bit and you MAY lose. But for me, I felt (as I watched my children sleep) that I'd have more regrets if I didn't try. I felt my family was worth it. I thought my wife was worth it. I also knew I was going to be OK either way whereas I knew my wife wouldn't be and my young kids needed their mother. I kind of looked at it as a rescue mission. My wife played with matches and was now in a burning building. I could wait for her to come out or be stuck in their, burn to death and learn her lesson, or I could run into the smoke and flames and try to save her, risking my own safety and health in the process.
so much for being quick.
Your call Defacto.
Do you think it was wrong of me to continue to pull away from W when she was reaching out to me but still involved with OM?
As far as the present is concerned, I can see how a supportive approach could be viewed as a 180 but I see how W would receive it as too little too late.
Should I innocently reach out to see how W is doing or just sit tight and wait to see if W comes to me?
It would really help to know what's going on with OM right now!
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
1. Do you think it was wrong of me to continue to pull away from W when she was reaching out to me but still involved with OM?
2. As far as the present is concerned, I can see how a supportive approach could be viewed as a 180 but I see how W would receive it as too little too late.
3. Should I innocently reach out to see how W is doing or just sit tight and wait to see if W comes to me?
4. It would really help to know what's going on with OM right now!
1. No. You could have perhaps listened a bit more or shared some emotion when called for. But active way wards are crazy behaving and it's generally acceptable and healthier to keep your distance. It causes a lot of anxiety to be around an active wayward and you needed to calm down and be the responsible person. MANY betrayed husband's go nuts in the beginning expressing anger and hurt and desperation. IMO, this isn't necessarily a mistake. It may not be productive towards ending the affair but it, at least, shows your wayward wife that you care enough to be upset by her behavior. Men that recover kind of accept it all as part of the process of recovery whereas men that don't more strongly regret those behaviors the first few weeks. For example, if you recover, your biggest regret will probably be not telling OM's wife immediately back in January when you discovered the affair. If you don't, your biggest regret may be not just chucking in the towel, accepting a quick collaborative divorce and moving on with your life. I preferred being more proactive and interacting with my wayward wife but I was able to let her fog talk gas lighting comments bounce off me. Conversely, some say trusting and allowing your adult wife figure things out all on her own is safer for you emotionally and actually a respectful loving gesture. I'm more fighter.
2. "To little too late" is too little...too late until it isn't. If one of her complaints about you was that you didn't do enough for her or support her, how is doing nothing (and acting all happy about it) going to help that? She's not is love with you right now and that's not gonna magically change. By the way, 99 or every 100 wayward wives say the same thing. Sometimes it's a legitimate complaint other times it's not (typical fog talk rationalization and justification), but regardless, it doesn't give them the right to cheat nor the right to choose another mate. Also you don't have to agree with her complaints, while she's foggy I'd suggest just validating them, tending to agree and continue to listen. While they are wayward, you can't teach them anyway.
3. Don't pursue....just be prepared to be supportive IF the opportunity arises. Don't overcommit either. I'm not thinking you'll be spending hours with her or on the phone letting her go on and on berating you and blaming you. You can and should cut it short and get back to your GAL's in the meantime versus obsessing over her. At best, maybe you can just be neutral, calm and relaxed as a safe harbor for your wife who is living in a storm right now.
4. Don't bug OM's wife. You texted yesterday. Have you tried to contact her more than that? You want to be careful here. OM could be gas lighting her that you are a crazy vindictive abusive husband. If you "harass" her at all, she'll see that behavior as consistent with his lie. Next time you contact her I'd recommend doing it by phone call. That way if she doesn't answer you can leave a calm professional voicemail indicating "sorry to bother you but felt you should know my wife knows I am the one that told you and that her boss supposedly knows about the affair (but that could be a lie). Other than that you don't know what's going on at the hospital and any information she can provide would be greatly appreciated, even if it's just letting you know that she no longer wishes to share information with you. Tell her "I'd also really like to know if your husband intends to end it and recommit to you and your family or if he tried to lie his way out of this. Again, I'm sorry to bother you during these difficult days."
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
Only response I have is that I haven't contacted OM's W since my initial text yesterday morning. I plan on giving her plenty of time and space.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Just got a text from W asking if I could take D4 to a children's birthday party tomorrow. W was really stressing out about it because a lot of the friends who she thinks hate her will be there.
About an hour ago, I told W that I had plans with S1 tomorrow.
What should I do? Be a nice guy, take D4 to party, and "save" W from this awkwardness OR tell her that I already have plans and can't do it?
I could be a "hero" but I don't know if that's the right thing to do. I initially offered to take D4 to this party a couple of days ago.
I'm leaning towards saying yes just because I know it's important to D4 and I don't want D4 to suffer.
Help!!
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Nope. Don't rescue her. These are the consequences of her actions. If, however, she refuses to take your D4, then in the best interest of your D4, you should take her for your D4's sake.
IMHO
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
I'm sure if I say no, my W will just get her mom to bring D4 to birthday party...
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Then W proceeds to threaten me and says she will fight for full custody of kids because I'm untrustworthy, etc. Expectedly, W blames all of this on my decision to tell OM's W.
I would take the D4 to the birthday party and pick up the slack with regards to the kids at every opportunity possible. Waywards are unpredictable. I knew a guy once who was a part time professor and stay at home dad with a corporate wife who worked ungodly hours and travelled all the time for work who still lost primary custody of his kids and then within a year his wife petitioned the court to move 1500 miles away with the kids. He sees his kids over holidays and a month in the summer now. Custody battles are ruthless and it's not just a one time thing. You could be battling over the kids for years so the earlier you start documenting that YOUR primary concerns are the kids in this mess in contrast to her primary concern being herself and NOT the kids...the better.
While fighting for you marriage you need to protect your backside legally and financially. Wayward wives can turn on you in a second and make all sorts of claims. A text request like that, in my opinion, should be met with a "sure, when can I pick her up". I don't care if it makes her life easier or the affair easier. I just don't think the kids are a chess piece in this gal/detaching game.
Another consideration. YOU are the only sane parent these kids have right now. They need your protection as much as possible these days because your wife sure doesn't truly care about anyone but herself right now.
Last thing. She's living at her parents house. The "consequences" aren't really gonna be felt by her if and when you deny taking the kid over to your friends house anyway She's just gonna get her parents to do it.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
Never mind. W called me after work and told me she just wasn't going to go to the party. I let her talk about the situation a bit, W said she was having a panic attack and she just turned around and went back home. W said she bribed D4 with a slurpee.
I told W how excited I was to spend the day with S1 and I told that I would see her tomorrow. I end the call. -- 15 minutes later, W calls back and asks me if I plan to do anymore crazy stuff. I ask W what she means and she refers again to me talking to OM's W. W says I'm responsible for her losing all her friends. Then she says I was responsible for her losing the only friend she had left (the OM?). W says that she has nobody to talk to and nothing to do because of me.
W says I scared OM's W half to death because OM's W felt like I was a stalker.
W then says I was a crappy husband. I agree to this. Then W says that I've only gotten worse.
W then refers to this date again with another OM. And W says that there is not a chance we could ever get back together.
I then tell W that I need to go and will see her in the AM when I pick up S1. I disconnect the call. --- W then proceeds to text me...
"The most ironic thing is that you, Mr. Logical, wanted to "protect his family and his kids"...how noble...the only thing you've done is harm them by hurting me, spreading rumors, and acting like a crazy person.
I showed so much restraint with tarnishing your name but you just couldn't hold back. What a crappy thing to do. You are not a good person. I don't know who you are.
So please do me a favor, don't talk any more about me to ANYONE. Stop stalking people and acting crazy. I just want to raise the kids the best we can and get this divorce finalized so I can put you in the past.
Is that within your comprehension?"
Yikes! I didn't reply and don't plan to.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Next time before she gets into her manifesto, stop her and say that she cannot and will not control you and your actions. That what she's experiencing is a result of HER actions and not yours. And that you felt morally obligated to talk to tell OM's W to protect her family and it had nothing to do with your W. Then end it.
Strong but firm. Think steely eyed Clint Eastwood where you are just looking at a crazy woman talking.
I mean she PUNISHED your D by not taking her to her party.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Me: 42 W: 32 Married 7 years together 8.5 S1: 7 S2:7 Bomb #1: 09-16-13 Recon #1: 11/13 A discovered 04-03-2014 W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me I filed D 12-02-2014 S 05-31-14 Divorced 5-19-16
Next time before she gets into her manifesto, stop her and say that she cannot and will not control you and your actions. That what she's experiencing is a result of HER actions and not yours. And that you felt morally obligated to talk to tell OM's W to protect her family and it had nothing to do with your W. Then end it.
Strong but firm. Think steely eyed Clint Eastwood where you are just looking at a crazy woman talking.
I mean she PUNISHED your D by not taking her to her party.
I understand this approach but won't this only lead to a nasty argument? I thought I was supposed to avoid arguments at this stage.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
How is this going to lead to an argument? All you're doing is what she's doing. You're doing what you want to do and she has NO RIGHT to try and control you. That's just more blameshifting on her part.
She will only start treating you like a man when you start acting like THE MAN.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Never mind. W called me after work and told me she just wasn't going to go to the party. I let her talk about the situation a bit, W said she was having a panic attack and she just turned around and went back home. W said she bribed D4 with a slurpee.
This is why you should have volunteered to take the kid. Your wife is unstable right now. Having "panic attacks" and racing around town with your daughter in the car. Plus you'd be in the company of your supportive friends versus sitting around dwelling on these conversations and text messages.
I told W how excited I was to spend the day with S1 and I told that I would see her tomorrow. I end the call. -- 15 minutes later, W calls back and asks me if I plan to do anymore crazy stuff. I ask W what she means and she refers again to me talking to OM's W. W says I'm responsible for her losing all her friends. Then she says I was responsible for her losing the only friend she had left (the OM?). W says that she has nobody to talk to and nothing to do because of me.
W says I scared OM's W half to death because OM's W felt like I was a stalker.
This is manipulative damage control. It's not a problem because you aren't running around town talking to anyone else but she wants to box you and make sure you don't do anything more. She also doesn't want you taking to OM's wife again so the stalker comment is either made up OR it's part of OM's spin to his wife. I would include this fact in the list of facts you give OM's wife by voice mail (probably wait a couple days so you can add more facts but keep the list handy in case she calls you) along with an indication that are fully aware that this is most likely a lie but if there is any truth to it...please do not hesitate to tell me to bug off. I am not a stalker and not whatever they might be telling you I am. I merely informed you about your husband because I thought it was the decent thing to do. My wife moved out and none of our friends are talking to her because she thinks she's in love with your husband. I know you'd rather believe your husband, whom you love, than some stranger but I am not a liar.
W then says I was a crappy husband. I agree to this. Then W says that I've only gotten worse.
Water off a ducks back. Validate and just keep listening
W then refers to this date again with another OM. And W says that there is not a chance we could ever get back together.
I thought about this last night and wondered if possibly another doctor became aware that your wife was "in play"....meaning OM passed the rumor around that your wife is willing to fall for the powerful Doctor routine and sleep her way up the corporate ladder. There could be some other doctor but this is MOST LIKLEY a fabrication designed to hurt you and throw you (and OM's wife) off the scent of her/their affair. Subterfuge, but speculation is a waste of time and headspace. Water off a ducks back
I then tell W that I need to go and will see her in the AM when I pick up S1. I disconnect the call. --- W then proceeds to text me...
"The most ironic thing is that you, Mr. Logical, wanted to "protect his family and his kids"...how noble...the only thing you've done is harm them by hurting me, spreading rumors, and acting like a crazy person.
I showed so much restraint with tarnishing your name but you just couldn't hold back. What a crappy thing to do. You are not a good person. I don't know who you are.
So please do me a favor, don't talk any more about me to ANYONE. Stop stalking people and acting crazy. I just want to raise the kids the best we can and get this divorce finalized so I can put you in the past.
Is that within your comprehension?"
Yikes! I didn't reply and don't plan to.
She's hurt. Telling OM's wife has KILLED the affair. The "stalking and crazy" comment again tips me off that she and OM are spinning this to her bosses and the OM's wife. They are probably indeed painting you as the controlling stalking crazy jealous husband who she separated from awhile ago who is making up an affair with OM who was just being a supportive friend. They probably claim the "proof" you showed her was fabricated.
This is the kind of text that IF she ever becomes a FORMER wayward wife she will cringe to read or talk about. Calling YOU a bad person she doesn't recognize anymore is just so ironic you sometimes can't help but chuckle and roll your eyes at it. You don't deserve this Defacto. She's out of her mind due to the stress of OM's wife finding out the truth about her life that she's lashing out and desperately trying to put you and the affair back into the secret little box. She's pathetic right now and someone only a husband that promised to "love her in sickness and health, in good times and bad" could possible love at all. God bless you for even considering trying to work this out. You deserve better, but this is your life and I guarantee that YOU are going to make it. I hope we can help you save her in the process
[/quote]
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
Journaling: So, W called me 5 times since last "conversation." I was at a baseball game so I let it go to voicemail. W calls again when I got home, thought maybe I could talk to kids around bedtime so I decide to answer.
W asks why I didn't answer her calls and that she has stopped by the house and I wasn't there. Told W I went out. W asked where. I told her I went to a baseball game.
W then hands phone to D4 for a second to say hi. When W takes phone, she asks me if I showed a picture of W to OM's W. I told W that I only showed OM's W the picture from the texts I discovered back in January. Apparently, OM's W knows about my W's cosmetic surgery and is trying to figure out how OM's W found out. (Obviously things are still brewing at OM's house)
Then W asks me again if I have anymore big surprises planned. I tell W that I don't but I tell W that she doesn't control what I do. Then W launches into why she just doesn't know why I did what I did. I tell W that I told OM's W because it was the moral thing to do. W then started comparing what I did to jihad. She then launches into how I've ruined her life. I respond by saying that she needs to understand that her decisions had something to do with it too. W responds that she will do that when I do that too for my decisions. (It was like she proofread Mrbond's message!)
W says that we were separated and I told her we could date other people. (This is funny because she's now changed the timeline of our separation to starting before the A was discovered. And, I never agreed to dating other people during separation. I only agreed for the separation to be on a trial basis and that we would NOT date other people. It wouldn't be worth it to remind her of these errors however.)
W then says she has shown so much restraint not telling others about the things I've done. And that W wouldn't want our kids to find out and look at me differently. I'm not sure how to respond so I essentially ignore this comment. (W has made numerous unfounded comments about me and has threatened to slander me and pursue full custody)
The. W asks if she has to worry about me with the kids. W says that a person close to me has concerns about my state of mind around the kids.
I tell W that the insinuation is ludicrous and she knows the answer to that.
I changed the conversation again to my excitement for spending time with S1 tomorrow. I thank W for remaining calm during conversation. I then tell W I will see her in the morning when I pick up S1 and to have a good night.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
You let it go too far again. When she starts to blameshift again, look her straight in the eyes and tell her that you will not be controlled by her and that if she continues to blame you for everything, you are walking away.
Remember. Shut her down before her rant. Or if you find yourself not being able to stop her, after her rant, just chuckle, shake your head and walk away. She'll start yelling back at you but just walk it off. Think of her as one of those crazy people you might see walking on a street spewing nonsense. You don't pay them any attention right? That's how you should see your W.
If she threatens to tell your friends the things that you've done, again, look her in the eyes, shrug your shoulders and tell her to go ahead because you have nothing to hide.
Confidence.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Good morning all! I woke up early, went for a quick jog, and enjoyed a relaxing morning.
Mrbond, thanks for your advice. I will actively apply this strategy going forward.
I just picked up S1 at my W's parents house. I was cordial and upbeat and kept the conversation only about the kids. W was pretty mellow even a little somber but calm and relaxed.
W was overly affectionate towards S1 before we left. I was positive and upbeat the whole time and wished W a good day.
One quick note: I had to get something out of my W's car when I noticed that a book of mine that I assumed W had taken and lent to OM was now sitting in the back of W's car.
Have a great day today! I will truly cherish the time I have with my S1 today.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
You let it go too far again. When she starts to blameshift again, look her straight in the eyes and tell her that you will not be controlled by her and that if she continues to blame you for everything, you are walking away.
Remember. Shut her down before her rant. Or if you find yourself not being able to stop her, after her rant, just chuckle, shake your head and walk away. She'll start yelling back at you but just walk it off. Think of her as one of those crazy people you might see walking on a street spewing nonsense. You don't pay them any attention right? That's how you should see your W.
If she threatens to tell your friends the things that you've done, again, look her in the eyes, shrug your shoulders and tell her to go ahead because you have nothing to hide.
Confidence.
This kind of debating with a wayward is completely unproductive. It's antagonistic. You can't teach them and logic escapes them. Further, the logic of this argument completely contradicts the entire basis of why you are upset. Is she can't control you, to some extent, as your wife, they you can't control her and she can sleep with and date anyone she wants....right?
Defacto....please use discernment when applying any advice you receive on the internet. Michelle Davis is the expert on this forum. Not me. Not Mr. Bond. We are just your peers who have some insight having gone through this before you but also the bias of having only one experience.
My own perspective tells me that you should just listen to her rant and then listen some more. Instead of interjecting your conflicting opinion ("you don't control me") you ask questions like ("are you trying to control me?") and then LISTENING then maybe another question ("how come you can telll me who I can talk to but I can't tell you who you can sext with")...then LISTEN, then another question ("haven't you been telling OM stuff about me for the past year?). You aren't going to win arguments at this point so maybe you can plant some seeds of logic that will grow later on.
But that's just my opinion. Let's take a look at what the professional say: go back to Sandi's 180 list gleaned mostly from Ms. Davis's book:
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patient on your behalf.
21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight..
23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
"This kind of debating with a wayward is completely unproductive. It's antagonistic."
Actually it's not. You're not yelling or being mad or nasty or angry or cold. It's pure confidence. You're not telling her what to do. You are stating it as a matter of fact.
In fact, that swagger and confidence is what got the OM your W. You are just establishing your boundary and it shows your WAS that you're on the path to walking away.
I don't know about Georgia Bulldog's story but doing this put me on the path to saving my M and many others.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Confidence and swagger are much better demonstrated by ACTIONS (such as telling the OM's wife and GAL'ing) versus somehow "calmly" "shutting her down" and "looking her in the eye and saying you don't control me" in a nice fashion. She's still completely wayward and doesn't give a crap about logic, reason or fairness. It's all about her (and OM).
Besides. A boundary is NOT "you don't control me". Defacto's boundary is simply not being controlled by his wayward wife and doing what he rationally and confidently FEELS is right for his situation, his wife and his family. She can SAY whatever she wants. You can't control what she thinks or says and her words don't actually have the power to control you. IF they did and she was able to manipulate Defacto with her controlling language into NOT actually speaking with anyone else....THAT would be wimpy and non-attractive.
I think Defacto's doing a pretty good job of avoiding the bait and taking a stand for himself here and there without being antagonistic.
Originally Posted By: Defacto
W then says she has shown so much restraint not telling others about the things I've done. And that W wouldn't want our kids to find out and look at me differently. I'm not sure how to respond so I essentially ignore this comment. (W has made numerous unfounded comments about me and has threatened to slander me and pursue full custody)
The. W asks if she has to worry about me with the kids. W says that a person close to me has concerns about my state of mind around the kids.
What "things have you done"? Can you think of anything she may want to tell others you've done?
I don't know what state you are in but you want to research whether your state is a one party or two party consent state for recording conversations. This will determine only whether you tell your attorney about it and can admit it into evidence because regardless, you should be recording your phone calls with her using an app or some kind and carrying around a voice activated recording device or maybe even a MP3 Watch that records conversations. She continues to threaten and insinuate things that make me suspicious that you are being set up for a custody fight. More likely than not it's just part of her manipulation game and lingering exposure anger but having a recording of her THREATENING you with "I'm going to take your kids away from you if you don't stop talking to OM's wife" would be custody battle gold should it ever come to that. Judges don't like parental alienators much but if you don't have a recording of it....it never happened. Protect your backside.
What is your custody arrangement now.....50/50? Absent a court order it can be whatever the two of you agree upon and where the children sleep is what determines child support later on. Spending all day with your D1 doesn't count unless she spends the night too.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
You need to set boundaries and I think that's the direction you were going in.
I hope you have a wonderful time with your S1.
Hang in there!
Bob
Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS) M:14 yrs T:15 yrs No children together--3 each from previous marriages Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14 Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14 Divorce Final: 10/21/15
"versus somehow "calmly" "shutting her down" and "looking her in the eye and saying you don't control me" in a nice fashion. "
GB, Again, I don't know your story and how or if you saved your M, but in the time I've been here I haven't seen an instance where this hurt a situation.
"I think Defacto's doing a pretty good job of avoiding the bait and taking a stand for himself here and there without being antagonistic. "
Again, you get the feeling that what I stated was antagonistic. It wasn't. In fact, if he had allowed his W to call the shots and berate him at every opportunity, and the situation doesn't get better, it's time to do something different.
DeFacto, have you seen the list of the people who have saved their M's? The situation only started turning around after the LBS started to not care about what the WAS thought about.
Time to get your b@ll$ back buddy.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Yup, they know if you're balls are gone. They have a sixth sense. Boundaries are laughed at unless you balls. She'll know you've been reading self help books while she's been boning the OM.
You have to be like Swazye in Roadhouse, this is a time not to be nice.
I was nice. Three times I was nice. Three times too many.
Today, I put STBX's clothes, jewelry, etc. on the front porch in black trash bags. I'll put them back inside with a court order.
Boundaries a joke if you don't enforce them. Anything you say they laugh at. They fired you and don't respect you. You don't need their respect, you need them out of your life. You don't let your friends crap all over you.
It [censored], you loved this person once. You may still. Just don't assume they give a flying eff about you because they don't. She may say she cares for you, loves you, but she doesn't. Stop listening, stop talking, protect yourself with action. Remove the threat.
M:42 W:43 T:14 M:10 S:9 D:5 W filed 12/22/14 EA 12/31/14 PA 4/10/15 D final 5/13/15
Good stuff guys! I appreciate the spirited conversation and true concern for my sitch. It gives me a lot of ways to prepare for the next one of W's outbreaks.
Most importantly, just got the kids to bed. Had a brilliant day with S1! So thankful for these kids being in my life. I picked up D4 at 5pm and finished off the night well. However, D4 is acting out a bit and really misses W when D4 is with me.
As far as W is concerned, there were no outbreaks. W called or texted a few times about the kids. I was positive, happy, and enthusiastic and kept all phone or in person correspondence about the kids.
"What "things have you done"? Can you think of anything she may want to tell others you've done?"
GB, whenever W has flipped out at me, she makes unfounded allegations about me and threatens to either use it against me for child custody or to pay me back for the friends she lost. I talked to my L about it and besides it not being true, the allegations don't hold any water. Plus, it's pretty telling that these allegations were never brought up until after the A was discovered.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
What's your current temporary custody arrangement?
Why have her parents taken in their wayward daughter? I ask this one because I wouldn't take in my daughter in the same situation. I'd send her home to her husband (who I gave her to on their wedding day) and tell her to work it out with him, dump her OM and quit her job at the hospital. I'd also probably make my own visit upon OM telling him to get away from my family and hurting my grandchildren. I'd 100% support my son-in-law after accessing the real facts of the situation to the best of my ability (hopefully discerning what is real and what are wayward lies in the process). Why are her parents enabling her??
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
What's your current temporary custody arrangement?
Why have her parents taken in their wayward daughter? I ask this one because I wouldn't take in my daughter in the same situation. I'd send her home to her husband (who I gave her to on their wedding day) and tell her to work it out with him, dump her OM and quit her job at the hospital. I'd also probably make my own visit upon OM telling him to get away from my family and hurting my grandchildren. I'd 100% support my son-in-law after accessing the real facts of the situation to the best of my ability (hopefully discerning what is real and what are wayward lies in the process). Why are her parents enabling her??
Nothing from OM's W.
Custody is pretty seamless right now. I have the kids on the weekend if W works. Additionally, I will take the kids overnight during the week if W has to work. W's mom will help with the kids during the week. W has the kids on her days off.
W told her mom about A as soon as I discovered it. What W has told her mom since is anybody's guess, probably not much and probably all negative towards me. I do know her mom was encouraging W to get an attorney.
I'm not exactly sure why her parents are enabling her but I'm sure it is a combination of how W is spinning the facts and their laissez-faire attitude towards parenting. Their other daughter has already had two D's.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Journaling: W finished her work shift this morning and brought breakfast by for the kids and I. I was cordial with W and thanked her for breakfast. W didn't come into house and took just enough time to hug kids before she left.
Then W called about two hours later while I was at the zoo to see how the kids were doing. She then asked me if I received her L's paperwork via email. I told her that I hadn't looked at it yet. W asked if we could grab a coffee to go over paperwork, etc. I told W that I had no problem with that. (Of course, I will delay this as long as possible. Then, when I can't postpone any longer, I plan to ask to meet with her L but I have no intention of signing up with her L.)
Then W asked if I hired PI. I told her that I hadn't. (I don't know why W keeps asking this question. I guess she's just paranoid.) I then tell W that I need to get back to the kids and I wish her a good day.
W calls two more times. The final call is while W is driving to work. She spends a few minutes talking to D4 and then W asks me while I'm being mean. W then asks about private investigator again lol. I reply to W that I've never hired a PI.
W then starts asking me about the D and her L. I tell W that I didn't have a chance to look at her email because I was with the kids all weekend. W asks me if I am going to let her D me. I reply that there is a lot to think about right now. W replies that she has wanted to D me for a long time.
I can tell W is frustrated because I am not just going along with her plans and signing up with her L and immediately agreeing to D.
I change the subject again and tell W that D4 wants to talk with her again. I then wish W a good night at work. ---- Most importantly, had a wonderful day with kids! No matter what happens, these kids continue to inspire me to fight for them and this family!
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
What's your current temporary custody arrangement?
Why have her parents taken in their wayward daughter? I ask this one because I wouldn't take in my daughter in the same situation. I'd send her home to her husband (who I gave her to on their wedding day) and tell her to work it out with him, dump her OM and quit her job at the hospital. I'd also probably make my own visit upon OM telling him to get away from my family and hurting my grandchildren. I'd 100% support my son-in-law after accessing the real facts of the situation to the best of my ability (hopefully discerning what is real and what are wayward lies in the process). Why are her parents enabling her??
I can probably speak to this a bit from experience. My in-laws, particularly my FIL have been ultra supportive of me and the idea of my W and I working on our M. So much so that my W holds deep resentment towards her dad. He told her early on that when she married me, I became their son and family, so they were going to treat us as equals. Her dad and I spent countless hours on the phone and hundreds if not thousands of texts between us during all of this ordeal. All of this support and his has no idea of just how far his D strayed.
Now, all of that being said, she is their only child. When we S, we both went to live at our parents homes respectively. It was the beginning of summer, and we left our home town for the S. This was done to make the transition for the kids as seamless as possible. We were about 4 hours apart. Now when summer was over and the S was not going to end, we had to put the kids in school somewhere. Her parents helped support her moving down closer to where I am so the kids can go to school at the best ones. She does not have a job and on infrequent occasions she might help her aunt out a bit for some cash. Her parents are covering her expenses because as her dad told me, she is our daughter and we have to help. Enabling? Sure. It has kept her from getting a job and learning to support herself.
I always knew that no matter how much her parents supported us working on the marriage and how supportive they have been towards me, blood is thicker than water. They will always side with their daughter. She has them believing a very elaborate lie right now. All of this will come out during our divorce trial and they will get to see just what their D has been up to. Do I expect them to cut her off afterwards? Of course not. Family is family, and I can respect any parent sticking by their child no matter how much I disagree with their choices.
Me: 42 W: 32 Married 7 years together 8.5 S1: 7 S2:7 Bomb #1: 09-16-13 Recon #1: 11/13 A discovered 04-03-2014 W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me I filed D 12-02-2014 S 05-31-14 Divorced 5-19-16
. W then asks about private investigator again lol. I reply to W that I've never hired a PI.
My wife and I discussed this and guess that this likely has much more to do with OM than your wife. She's already rationalized and justified that she can date and do whatever she wants so the only person a PI would really matter to is OM. OM has probably successfully convinced his wife that you're a jealous nutso and explained away the "proof" you showed her but OM needs to make sure there isn't more proof out there.
If you don't have anything more....even a recording of a conversation with your wife (if you are in a one party consent state it's legal to secretly record any conversation you want) wherein she discusses "the nature of her relationship with OM" would help.
In most cases, convincing OM's wife wouldn't be an imperative. You gave her the info and put her on notice fulfilling your community moral obligation. If she doesn't believe you and allows herself to be deceived that's on her. Chances are even if she's fooled briefly, she IS aware and likely watching OM very closely. However, in this situation. They still work together and if OM's wife is convinced she may make her husband quit the hospital and take his medical degree to any other hospital in the world.
If given the chance and/or on your next contact with her try to offer her up any more proof that you have BEFORE she even questions the proof you've already provided her.
Oh, and next time you are asked about a PI instead of saying "No". Just say something like, "when you are prepared to be a hundred percent honest with me, I'll be a hundred percent honest with you". You are playing poker with a liar and a cheat. She can repent and become a good person again. There is hope for her yet, but while she's like this you should be holding all your cards close to your chest. Other alternate answers:
1. "I wish would we could both be 100% honest with each other but I can't trust you right now"
2. "you are asking me questions I can't answer right now"
3. "have you hired a PI to watch OM? maybe he has other girlfriends or maybe they've been following him".
4. "All I'll say is I haven't PAID anyone to track OM"
5. "Why would I hire a PI, I've got lots of friends in this town, anonymous tipsters and friends of friends even in that hospital"
Leave her (and OM) guessing and in a panic. It's really hard to carry on an affair when you are constantly paranoid about who might be watching or following you.
Finally. Your informal custody arrangement should be a set schedule. If it's 3 days a week, then make it a set days and nights every week. I know that seems hard but make it happen. I like suggesting a betrayed husband try to set a schedule of 2, 3, 3, 2, 3, 3, 2 or 3, 3, 3, 3, 3. That way the days you get the kids changes every week and you each get some weekends free and other weekends with the children. Also, your work schedule is probably fixed hours whereas her hospital hours fluctuate which means you'll get opportunities to parent the children on nights she works and has custody too while ALWAYS being there for your kids on your days/nights. Her parents should be second in line behind you to cover hours, days and nights that your wife is unavailable (a "first right of refusal"). I know this might sound overwhelming but it sounds like right now your wife could claim she has full custody of the kids 100% and she gratuitously lets you visit them from time to time or even for a night here and there. Your current informal agreement could become the permanent custody agreement if you don't assert yourself a bit here.
I even wonder if you shouldn't consider going a little further with the collaborative divorce using one attorney just to the point of agreeing to a formal temporary custody agreement pending the final divorce decree BEFORE blowing up the divorce process and getting your attorney. She's in a hurry and her priority is getting it done quick. She might give in and be somewhat "fair" to reward you but if you blow the divorce process up and delay her she has already threatened to punish you. But please don't rely on me for legal advice. Talk to a lawyer in your state. Nothing stopping you from secretly meeting with an attorney to discuss this whole process and whether you should go along with this collaborative process for a bit. I'm still really worried you are being set up to be an every other weekend dad and with your wayward wife as the primary custodial parent. You may think that'll be fine because she's always been the better more involved parent (while you were off bread winning) but divorced unrepentant spouses make horrible parents and you'll be paying maximum child support to a woman who will be neglecting your children in favor of a selfish lifestyle and a revolving door of sketchy men entering her home. Your children need you to step up and protect them in case this whole recovery effort goes south. You need to be ready and able to be a 50-50 parent.
Is it safe for Defacto to tell us what state he resides in on this open forum??????
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
Pilot, thanks for sharing your story. I believe your situation is somewhat similar to what I'm experiencing right now. W's mom encouraged MC out of the gate. W's parents even survived a bout of infidelity themselves. I just think they are standing behind their daughter right now. I'm sure with W living there, they've seen the mood swings up close. But, they are being fed a one sided story with key facts omitted.
GB, I think you're right about PI. I did mention a specific outing that W and OM had together to OM's W. W could be wondering how I knew about this (mindreading, I know). W actually wrote it in her planner. W also marked OM's birthday in planner with hearts around it. I took pictures of both.
Two pieces of circumstantial evidence that could point to downward spiral of A: -the previously mentioned returned book that I believe W gave to OM -based on phone records, W always talked with OM on the way to work. However, the past two nights, this is the time W has decided to call to check on kids. (I know, this evidence is fairly weak)
I will think some more about custody arrangement. It has worked out fine thus far. Actually, the current arrangement even favors me a bit due to the nuances of W working overnight. However, I would fight for a structured arrangement of this ends up in a D.
I don't see my W making any changes in her living arrangement right now mainly due to financial reasons. W has no independent savings and all the marital investments are in my name. This is probably another reason why W wants a quick D. Unless her parents loan her money, she won't be able to get her own place until she's able to save up some money.
In regards to the kids, I definitely want joint custody and 99% of the time, it's what W says she wants too.
In regards to her L and pending threat of D, I have no problem agreeing to meet with W's L or with W to discuss paperwork at this time. But I won't agree to anything. It could be helpful, like was mentioned, to see what W is seeking.
Have a great week everybody!
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Journaling: W just called this morning, which I wasn't expecting because her mom was with the kids. W told me that she had a story from last night at work that made her think of me. So I let W tell me the funny story and I actively listened. I laughed, made a passing remark about story, and thanked her for sharing the story with me.
I then changed the topic to the kids and told W about my great morning with the kids.
W then asked me to make sure to look at the email she sent from her L. I told her that I started to look at it. I then wished her a good day and hoped she got some rest.
It was really a very cordial and upbeat conversation.
I'm just wondering about the purpose of W's call. She didn't need to check on the kids. I'm mindreading here but maybe W still finds comfort in the routine of calling me after her shift. Sounds like W doesn't want to lose my friendship.
W called me so I don't view my being cordial as pursuing. I simply let W tell her story and I proved to W I was listening. I think being cold and unfriendly would be damaging.
Just now, W sent me a pic of me with our D4 from four years ago. I know it doesn't mean anything but just wanted to share.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
I am not going to mind read, but I have seen it before. She is being nice because she wants you to cooperate with her plan for D. She is feeding you breadcrumbs to get her way.
I would be hesitant discussing anything with her lawyer with out one of your own present as well. Even if you think this is something you can work out together. In which case, I would take W to meet a new mutually agreed upon one. Anyone she went to first who at any point can become adversarial towards you is not someone I would even respond "hi" to on the street because that "hi" could come back to haunt you.
Me: 42 W: 32 Married 7 years together 8.5 S1: 7 S2:7 Bomb #1: 09-16-13 Recon #1: 11/13 A discovered 04-03-2014 W filed D 05-19-14 but never served me I filed D 12-02-2014 S 05-31-14 Divorced 5-19-16
