Zelda - almost there

[Zelda09]

I've identified a stumbling block. I try to imagine being with someone who loves me well and my first thought is, "Z, you were loved very well and it wasn't good enough for you."

I think of my H after he came back doing the laundry to surprise me. Or knowing I had a tough day and sitting on the dock with wine to talk about it and be there for me. I think of him rubbing my back as I had a breakdown. His arms spread wide walking down a public avenue to meet me. His anxiety if I hadn't eaten in the morning.

It wasn't consistent though. He could also be very mean if he felt small it defensive and I was doubting myself constantly. Like being on a yo-yo. And that is probably why it felt like love to me, I think. Going back to childhood.

It is important to not idealize our spouses or the M we're losing, I think. Not to become myopic and to really listen to our thoughts.

I've found its easier to say in an imaginary convo with him, "H, I no longer want to be your friend. Your friendship wasn't reliable."
Seen in those terms - I'd never put up with a friend - or draw one so close- who treated me this way. Without sex and all the life-building associations and memories, the core feelings are clearer to sort out.

[Zelda09]

Wow - just read an article recommended by Mozza on the lines if Fcuk Yes or No that answers everything I wrote above - lukewarm and inconsistent isn't the same as 'loved well.'

[Zelda09]

H texted me today to say he has been to the courthouse and has paperwork to go over with me for breakfast, or now, if I cared to join him.

I didn't realize how much of my heart was open to making excuses about the timing of the fight/settlement check arriving. I was prepared to give him time to get his head straight and find himself. But the man that had trouble with the smallest of tasks is all over this. I've never felt so used and discarded in my life. It's like a wound that every time I think is healed is poked. I feel like this confirms it. It was about using me until he had his settlement.

I had drafted and printed a separation agreement that covered all bases. I was going to present it to him to sign so that while he did his thinking I was protected. I may still regardless of what he shows up with.

I feel he is some kind of monster. The victim only as long as needed to have food, shelter, clothing and love and couldn't count on himself for his needs. As soon as he could, it's like this means nothing to him.

Mark Manson had another good one on strong boundaries. His article described the rollercoaster r where one party feels the need to be overly responsible for feelings, needs of the other. The other of course feels everyone else ought to be more responsible for their feelings, needs.

Most of your spouses, they waffle. They cry. They have regrets, they have emotions.

Who was this guy I pushed so hard for? Was he acting during all those super happy with me, ily so much times??

I'm angry at myself for allowing this to hurt, to rock me anymore.

[Zelda09]

Guys, help me out please. I thought I was ok with this. I feel like I'm having a meltdown.

a) fresh horror at how callous he was and is. I could not have been loved during piecing, the year before BD...ever? Maybe the first two years?

b) it's over. it really is. have I been in denial? I don't want him or this r as it is, so what is my problem? That he's out playing poker and enjoying his new life?

c) I feel so small and worthless. I know this is not a healthy or rational response.

d) I can't make sense of anything that was. It's a huge chunk of my life that feels completely un-valid. Also not a healthy perspective but it feels like the real one.

Help me think healthy thoughts over here.

[Sotto]

Zelda, I think you are demonising your H - calling him callous, a monster. There are very few monsters in this world - but there are many who are lost, angry, confused and make mistakes.

Why would you feel that your H did not love you? Why would he try and repair a R with someone he didn't love? I expect that he did (and possibly does) love you - but that he has lost his way.

I can see that you may not want him and the R as it is. I feel the same way about my H and our R. But whether it is over is really up to you.

Who knows if he is enjoying his new life. We only really know these things if we can talk intimately with someone. Now may not be the time to have that conversation. But perhaps there may come a time.

You are not small, nor worthless, merely someone who is struggling to process and move forward from a difficult thing that has happened. But what has happened does not invalidate what has happened in your R thus far. There were happy times and there were harder times. They both stand together as your entwined lives. One does not overshadow the other.

Those are my thoughts on what you have posted. Posting this, I realise I didn't respond to your kind query on my sitch. No, I wouldn't be relieved if H filed for D. That isn't what I want. I'm not sure what may be possible at this point, but if we can reconcile, I would hope to.

Take care Z, and if in doubt minimise contact with your H until you feel in a more settled place. ((((Zelda))))

[Calibri]

Guys, help me out please. I thought I was ok with this. I feel like I'm having a meltdown.

First things first, I'm going to need for you to breathe. And then breathe some more. Ok?

Ok.....here we go.

a) fresh horror at how callous he was and is. I could not have been loved during piecing, the year before BD...ever? Maybe the first two years?

You can't define someone else's value and perception of love. Did your H love you? Maybe, maybe not. That's on him to figure out, not you. You can only evaluate your truths. Your perceptions. If he didn't love, well, then that's him, not you. Defining if he loved you or not doesn't fix anything. He could love you with everything he had, but it just wasn't what you needed, to feel loved. I don't think it's fair to say that he didn't love you.

I also agree with Toots, I think you're demonizing your husband --- a lot. I also agree with Toots, that there are some really horrible people out there in this world, but from what you said - I wouldn't put him in that category. Lost, angry, confused, rough around the edges, has some issues -- yes. But sweet Zelda, and I say this with all do respect, the same could be said about you. And, if I remember correctly, your friend pointed out that you weren't the best either.

I'm not trying to downplay your feelings or emotions. I acknowledge that you feel the way you do, and I can see why you would feel the way, based on your explanation of the events. But Zelda, your explanation of the events are your interpretation of what happened. Just like he has his interpretation of what happened. Somewhere in the middle, is the reality of what actually happened.

I have to admit -- I've cringed, alot, reading your posts. For you, and for myself as well. I see alot of myself in you, and I see how angry you are, and upset, and how you felt as a caretaker. And I know it's the internet and we all vent and what not, but I wonder if how we interpret you is how you come across to your husband? (And this is all water on the bridge...and what not), but it just seems like you're such a strong personality (hi pot, I'm the kettle! :-)) and I can't help but wonder....did your H become the person he felt.....for a lack of better words....beaten down to be? (and I mean that in the nicest way possible) You talk alot about what you've done for him after the accident, buying the house, dragging him along, him using you until he got his settlement, could it be that he played the role that he felt was necessary to be a part of the relationship? And when he saw that you weren't going to be there to take care of the things, he got his feet under him? Did you ever truly allow him to get his feet under him?

b) it's over. it really is. have I been in denial? I don't want him or this r as it is, so what is my problem? That he's out playing poker and enjoying his new life?

Don't assume it's all rainbows and butterflies. Early on in my sitch, I was so furious with my husband. He left. He was in a hotel room. NOOOOOO responsibilities except to go to work and go to crossfit. Parents were paying his bills. And I was left behind with a packed up house, animals, a yard to tend, everything. I remember in the conversation - yelling at him about how happy his life must be and that he was living it up, and he quickly assured me that it wasn't (and still isn't) rainbows and butterflies for him. I assumed that because he left he was happy. And he wasn't. And still isn't.
Try not to assume anything, because in my experience, it's usually wrong.

c) I feel so small and worthless. I know this is not a healthy or rational response.

I understand. I've been going through that alot lately. I think it's normal, but as you have identified, not healthy nor rational.

d) I can't make sense of anything that was. It's a huge chunk of my life that feels completely un-valid. Also not a healthy perspective but it feels like the real one.

I understand completely. Everything my H said when he left turned my world upside down. It felt like the last ten years of my life were suddenly invalid, hadn't happened, wasn't real. It made me question alot of things. Even after he's told me that a majority of what he said when he left wasn't true, the doubt still lingers. But for me, I know what my truth is. That I was blindingly happy, that I had an amazing ten years with him and regardless of what happened, I resolved that I wouldn't let his opinion ruin my memories. And that's something I struggle with, daily. But I think your IC hit the nail on the head. If it mattered to you, and you loved, that's what's important.

Zelda, I really, really would advise against going to breakfast with your H in the morning. Everything is too raw, and is like pouring salt in the wound. Tend to yourself. The rest will come in time.

[gan]

Hey Zel. Sorry you are going through this. It reminds me of my early days. At the moment it sounds like you are living a lot in your head and trying to find answers. Trust me - you'll just go in circles. You've got to make the decision to stop and more yourself forward. Come back to to processing in a few months from now when it isn't so raw.

A few ideas:
- Re-building starts with you owning your happiness. So what can you do there?
- Acknowledge the need to be kind to yourself. Do things that make you feel good, treat yourself to things you wouldn't usually do.
- I know I've pushed the yoga/meditation idea before but I really do think it helped me get out of the thought spirals

[Zelda09]

Calibri, Toots -

I hear you loud and clear. I want to believe my H was a good man and that's why I M him to begin with.

Toots to your point - "why would he try and repair a R with someone he didn't love" - that's just it. I don't believe he really was trying. I've tried so very hard to imagine him as simply angry, conflicted and someone who loved me but it still doesn't add up.

I think he was a good actor. I like your vision of the entwined lives we had. They certainly are different branches. And what is killing me today - I thought I would feel relief when he filed. I don't. I am melting down bc I've been lying to myself that I didn't hope for reconciliation. It sounds like you are honest with yourself.

I miss my old H, the one that was irresponsible, goofy, but the one I loved for all his faults. His tantrums would upset me but I never felt scared in the past the way I did that night. I felt loved by my old H, but it's so far in the past, I can't tell if that was me pulling him along or he really did have googly eyes at me. Calibri, I hope you are right in terms of his capacity. I really want to believe that.

Also, I read your posts and have the same reaction if it makes you feel better. We're intense people.

I was forceful, critical, judgemental, impassive when he needed a good listener, all of it. I can honestly say I held to my changes when he came back. The softer I was, the more he threw it in my face that he thought we should be apart, seeing other people, him questioning everything.

My experience was he used emotional blackmail to beat me down. In the last week I wrote in my journal about how much I was feeling hated by him, hating myself. Word salad in most conversations, but that wasn't new. Otherwise, yeah, he was great and kind as long as I wasn't asking him to put away his phone on a date, talk to me about what he meant by something he said, or how his job search was going.

His experience - I'm sure it wasn't easy being home again with 'no ability' to drive his car and get out. I'm sure things I said were laced with all kinds of echoes of jabs in the past to his ears and he was trying to find himself and also be good to me. I'm sure he was bored. He admitted to trying to feel love through intense anger from the last year.

I took care of him for almost three years. It does hurt. For one of the first times in my life, I'm losing my ability to provide, a grandmother, a pet, and he walks away now.

Calibri - honest question - how did I stand in the way of him getting his feet under him? How could anyone actually prevent another person from doing this? He didn't before Feb bc he was trapped by his case. After he signed, I was encouraging when he'd bring it up, but otherwise acted as though I trusted him to search out his own opportunities and proceed as he thought best.

I think you are correct, my H tried to fit in a box in this r that I'd formed for him. He wasn't sure about M but went on faith. Wasn't sure he wanted to be a family guy but was entertaining it. Our social circle and things we did was 90% around me, because hey, I'm the driver and if he wasn't coming up with options, I was. So yes, I think he denied his real self to try to make me happy and grew to hate me. He complained he didn't feel like he was in the same league with some of our other friends. And yes, I believe he may actually be happier hanging out at bars and chat rooms, playing video games, and I shouldn't try to look down at him for that, just bc he's not trying to finish his degree and prioritizing the way I wanted him to in order to build and share a life with me.

Three days before the incident, telling him about the employment; I told him about my plan and asked for his support as I transitioned into my business full time. I wonder how much of a factor that was - was he put off by the idea I would need him?

The next two days he was on the phone with his ex constantly. I saw it in my phone bill a few days ago when I tried doing calendar math.

The day after he threw things at me, destroyed my property and slammed a door into me because of a comment I made about his accountability in that instance. I swear I was not screaming banshee. He did this days before his settlement came in that week.

He never apologized, wouldn't look at me the next days and instead took my debit card out partying.

When confronted, he was smug and asked me what I intended to do about it. Actually shrugged when I told him how scared, hurt, disrespected and angry I felt about it all. He did that thing where his eyes got really big like, so what, what's your point? Our MC told me she thought it was sabotage. Conscious or unconscious.

The day after we agreed to D, he drove himself all over town. So much for 'inability'.

Since then, he's gone around town playing nice guy, accusing me of cheating to our closest friends and displaying absolutely no emotion as far as anyone can tell that this is over - "it's for the best. I needed someone who cared about me being me."

Am I really demonizing him? If it was JUST a WAS plan hatched a while ago and executed when he had some means, fine.

It wouldn't have been so bad except for the violence and treating me like dirt on his shoe afterward, the pretend I'm excited to be with you stuff the day and weeks before, the stuff that felt like such head games and manipulation - most WAS simply recede before they execute something like this, don't they? I felt like he took some pleasure in seeing me break down when he would say shitty things to me. Only to lift me up the next day. And it was fine, I thought we were 'piecing' and it was just hard and I was just dealing with his anger.

I will take responsibility for the ass I was pre BD, but I wore my giraffe ears and I tried until I was absolutely bent over.

Can we say he is a good person having done these things? Everyone has a TIFU moment. Everyone loses their chit. Everyone can be absolutely rotten sometimes, including me.

Even if he wanted to D me, fine, but why the complete lack of remorse about his actions that night? This lines up pretty well with what sociopaths are known for - the devalue and discard phase of their relationships.

Calibri, I thank you for your honest response. Really. I just can't see him as angry, lost, or whatever. It really seems to go beyond that. Maybe with some time I will feel differently. I hope so. I don't wish him any misery. I cried just as hard in the weeks during S, imagining how he'd suffered under all my pressure and criticism, how he was suffering and grieving for his body.

I just don't know what's real anymore. After watching him casually drive off, back and forth over the course of the next two days like it was nothing, when there'd always been such drama just when he sat in the drivers seat for five minutes with the car off...and looking like he was going to hypervenitlate backing out of the driveway, the deep breathing and what not. It all just disappeared after D talk. Like magic.

So - did he really have PTSD. Did he really have suicidal thoughts (that I heard about only when we were fighting or when I tried to bring up my feelings.)

And you're right - I don't know if he is enjoying his life or just sending pictures of him being out and about enjoying night life to my friends (not even our friends - he's sending this stuff to my girlfriends).

I think maybe I just need to go get some of this out kickboxing. Actually sleep tonight.

I want to think about what you guys are saying to not see him.

[Ggrass]

Word salad is an abusers way to distract you.

Threats of sucide and thoughts of sucide, to tug and direct your emotional response and emotions.

The whole present one relatity and then say it was never what they said while yelling at you, is more abuse and abuser speak for distractions.

Nc is for you, not him. It's helps close the wounds. I should know, it's been a year of basically nc. I'm feeling better and better all the time.

Some days I'm postaively dangerous! Trust me it gets better, you weren't foolish.

The best way I can say this is

You were not in an honnest r, he just wasn't able to be honnest and intimate, so you made the best decisions based on the often warped facts you had. Which now you might not have made, but they were what you though best at the time.

There are no right and wrong decisions. Just decisions very simple really.

[Vanilla]

Calibri, Toots -

I hear you loud and clear. I want to believe my H was a good man and that's why I M him to begin with.

There are good and bad in all of us. Just because someone is so can be irrelevant in an R.

Toots to your point - "why would he try and repair a R with someone he didn't love" - that's just it.

It made sense to him Z.

I don't believe he really was trying.

It is interesting that word 'try' because that is a word used to prexcuse failure. I will try to get there today, I will try to be healthy, I will try to loose weight! so to say he wasn't even trying says nothing at all.

I've tried so very hard to imagine him as simply angry, conflicted and someone who loved me but it still doesn't add up.

It made sense to him.


I think he was a good actor. I like your vision of the entwined lives we had. They certainly are different branches. And what is killing me today - I thought I would feel relief when he filed. I don't. I am melting down bc I've been lying to myself that I didn't hope for reconciliation. It sounds like you are honest with yourself.

Mind reading H but not really knowing what you want. Z work to do. If you decide to stand that's ok you know! You stand for Z.

I miss my old H, the one that was irresponsible, goofy, but the one I loved for all his faults. His tantrums would upset me but I never felt scared in the past the way I did that night. I felt loved by my old H, but it's so far in the past, I can't tell if that was me pulling him along or he really did have googly eyes at me. Calibri, I hope you are right in terms of his capacity. I really want to believe that.

Just because H has changed into something different, is unlikely to mean that the history needs to be rewritten. By rewriting and questioning history you are hurting yourself. The past is gone, let it rest as it was, let your vision of it stay pleasant. I see no value in changing your view of it. Remember the good stuff and stop poking holes to find the bad stuff.


Also, I read your posts and have the same reaction if it makes you feel better. We're intense people.

I was forceful, critical, judgemental, impassive when he needed a good listener, all of it. I can honestly say I held to my changes when he came back. The softer I was, the more he threw it in my face that he thought we should be apart, seeing other people, him questioning everything.

That just is. It is H issue, if you can say to yourself Z did the very best she could with things as they were then that's ok. It was as it was and it is as it is.

My experience was he used emotional blackmail to beat me down. In the last week I wrote in my journal about how much I was feeling hated by him, hating myself. Word salad in most conversations, but that wasn't new. Otherwise, yeah, he was great and kind as long as I wasn't asking him to put away his phone on a date, talk to me about what he meant by something he said, or how his job search was going.

Let H be. It's done now.

His experience - I'm sure it wasn't easy being home again with 'no ability' to drive his car and get out. I'm sure things I said were laced with all kinds of echoes of jabs in the past to his ears and he was trying to find himself and also be good to me. I'm sure he was bored. He admitted to trying to feel love through intense anger from the last year.

100% of what he says is unbelievable Z!

I took care of him for almost three years. It does hurt. For one of the first times in my life, I'm losing my ability to provide, a grandmother, a pet, and he walks away now.

You did what you did with love, no expectation of payback or reward? If you said "I am doing X and Y and it is an unspoken condition that you will do C" then that is passive master talk and ultimately a failure.

Calibri - honest question - how did I stand in the way of him getting his feet under him? How could anyone actually prevent another person from doing this? He didn't before Feb bc he was trapped by his case. After he signed, I was encouraging when he'd bring it up, but otherwise acted as though I trusted him to search out his own opportunities and proceed as he thought best.

Let it go, let H be responsible for his stuff. When H was very ill then we assist as the other can't as they recover then let them get on with it.

I think you are correct, my H tried to fit in a box in this r that I'd formed for him. He wasn't sure about M but went on faith. Wasn't sure he wanted to be a family guy but was entertaining it. Our social circle and things we did was 90% around me, because hey, I'm the driver and if he wasn't coming up with options, I was. So yes, I think he denied his real self to try to make me happy and grew to hate me.

Mind reading Z. Will not benefit you. No one can make another happy and it is not their job.


He complained he didn't feel like he was in the same league with some of our other friends. And yes, I believe he may actually be happier hanging out at bars and chat rooms, playing video games, and I shouldn't try to look down at him for that, just bc he's not trying to finish his degree and prioritizing the way I wanted him to in order to build and share a life with me.

H insecurities, H choices. Liberal spattering of the word try again!

Three days before the incident, telling him about the employment; I told him about my plan and asked for his support as I transitioned into my business full time. I wonder how much of a factor that was - was he put off by the idea I would need him?

Who knows? What help did you ask for exactly?

The next two days he was on the phone with his ex constantly. I saw it in my phone bill a few days ago when I tried doing calendar math.

And?

The day after he threw things at me, destroyed my property and slammed a door into me because of a comment I made about his accountability in that instance. I swear I was not screaming banshee. He did this days before his settlement came in that week.

I believe you.

He never apologized, wouldn't look at me the next days and instead took my debit card out partying.

mature huh!

When confronted, he was smug and asked me what I intended to do about it. Actually shrugged when I told him how scared, hurt, disrespected and angry I felt about it all. He did that thing where his eyes got really big like, so what, what's your point? Our MC told me she thought it was sabotage. Conscious or unconscious.

I agree with your MC on this Z.

The day after we agreed to D, he drove himself all over town. So much for 'inability'.

yup!

Since then, he's gone around town playing nice guy, accusing me of cheating to our closest friends and displaying absolutely no emotion as far as anyone can tell that this is over - "it's for the best. I needed someone who cared about me being me."

yup, I have this too.

Am I really demonizing him?

No. Your incident was real, horrible and damaging. That of itself is awful plus the subsequent denials and from your description there have been other warnings, pushing you over early on. Z, I think you are rewriting history and reflecting this behaviour back to other perfectly ordinary times. Today is a stormy, bad weather day, the winds are howling, trees are crashing down, but last summer sun was real, the beach party was real. Just because today has a storm does not make last summers fun any less so.

If it was JUST a WAS plan hatched a while ago and executed when he had some means, fine.

I think you credit H with too much foresight, but suppose he had done this? So what?

It wouldn't have been so bad except for the violence and treating me like dirt on his shoe afterward, the pretend I'm excited to be with you stuff the day and weeks before, the stuff that felt like such head games and manipulation - most WAS simply recede before they execute something like this, don't they? I felt like he took some pleasure in seeing me break down when he would say shitty things to me. Only to lift me up the next day. And it was fine, I thought we were 'piecing' and it was just hard and I was just dealing with his anger.

That is called an abuse cycle.

I will take responsibility for the ass I was pre BD, but I wore my giraffe ears and I tried until I was absolutely bent over.

Good I am glad you did. The problem is the expectation again, if I do X or Y then I expect C from you. Do what you do because you are DB. because it is the thing you need to do.

Can we say he is a good person having done these things? Everyone has a TIFU moment. Everyone loses their chit. Everyone can be absolutely rotten sometimes, including me.

Maybe!

Even if he wanted to D me, fine, but why the complete lack of remorse about his actions that night?

That is why they call it abuse. He may eventually feel remorse, but more likely sorry for himself and blame you.


This lines up pretty well with what sociopaths are known for - the devalue and discard phase of their relationships.

Careful about labelling H, call him on his behaviour instead.

Calibri, I thank you for your honest response. Really. I just can't see him as angry, lost, or whatever. It really seems to go beyond that. Maybe with some time I will feel differently. I hope so. I don't wish him any misery. I cried just as hard in the weeks during S, imagining how he'd suffered under all my pressure and criticism, how he was suffering and grieving for his body.

Well, you can let go of that now!

I just don't know what's real anymore. After watching him casually drive off, back and forth over the course of the next two days like it was nothing, when there'd always been such drama just when he sat in the drivers seat for five minutes with the car off...and looking like he was going to hypervenitlate backing out of the driveway, the deep breathing and what not. It all just disappeared after D talk. Like magic.

Oh yeah! It is quite amusing to watch. my H still does this, "I am ill, so I'll, so tired, so sad, so sorry for myself" next minute "which pub, what golf match!"

So - did he really have PTSD. Did he really have suicidal thoughts (that I heard about only when we were fighting or when I tried to bring up my feelings.)

This is for H to know.

And you're right - I don't know if he is enjoying his life or just sending pictures of him being out and about enjoying night life to my friends (not even our friends - he's sending this stuff to my girlfriends).

H is going GAL. It is highly recommended!

I think maybe I just need to go get some of this out kickboxing. Actually sleep tonight.

I want to think about what you guys are saying to not see him.

Personally I think a good long cool down. This guy yanks your chains. H sends you to a bad head space, it is my opinion that you could do with some detachment first.

It seems like you want him to turn up, beg forgiveness, say it was all a mistake. Go back and be happy ever after with a H who says " I learned my lesson and it will never be like that again Z. I really truly promise". That both of you work hard to be the best you can be and it will be ok.