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Previous thread is almost at cap. Need advice for tomorrow so I'm starting this one a bit early (3 posts)

The story thus far...

Reposting my last post.

She called tonight!!

She asked if I got her text, I told her I didn't (because I really didn't).

She said she wanted to try to get together tonight to talk, I told her I couldn't tonight (because of my GAL activities).

She asked if we could meet tomorrow to talk. I said sure, offered to meet her somewhere other than the apt, she said where ever was fine, maybe we could even go to dinner.

I told her she could pick the place and how I was thinking of asking her to lunch or dinner. Again she said where ever I wanted.

She asked if I wasn't going to be there tonight would it be okay if she came by and saw the cats. I told her sure.

I offered to let her know when I was on my way back in case she didn't want to be in the apt with me, she said she was fine being in the apt with me. I mentioned the time she took the charger and said I figured she didn't want to see me because of that. She said that it was okay.

I mentioned how one of her favorite restaurants had a section set up at work today, so I was able to have that for lunch.

I reconfirmed tomorrow after work dinner, she said yes. I told her okay, talk to you later then, bye and hung up.

So we're supposed to meet for dinner tomorrow after work.

ADVICE TEAM ACTIVATE!!!!!!!!!

Calm, cool, collected.
Be loving but not overly excited.
No expectations!
Keep it upbeat, lighthearted, let her talk about the R first.
Don't talk about my changes (what if she asks for specifics??).
Be ready to be the first one to leave.

What else?! Any other advice?


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
"I want to have cats back" 5/4/15
Served D papers 5/8/15
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Listen to what she has to say and validate her feelings. Understand that she has a right to feel the way she does even if you don't agree with it and be compassionate. Let her do most of the talking and repeat what she says to you at times so that she knows you're listening.


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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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MrBond gave you excellent core DB advice. Commit it to memory and stick to the plan.

I'll add: prepare for the worst. Sorry to be blunt, but many many LBH have had similar talks. A few weeks ago, Barry went to such a dinner where his W told him that she wanted to sell him her half of their house for instance. It is the experience of the successful sitches that these things take months and years and get much worse before they get better. I've declined such meetings with my W twice: the first time she then emailed me that it was official with her BF and the second she told me she wanted to get the D paperwork started.

I'm not telling you that I know it will be bad. I'm telling you not to show up there thinking that this is the beginning for a better time and not be prepared to hear bad news. I know I go to all my meetings with my WW with reactions and responses ready for the worst (moving away, pregnant, asking for full custody, filing for D, etc.) You need to be prepared mentally so that you won't break down. This is absolutely crucial: do not melt in a puddle of tears begging her to reconsider. Take it all in strides and show her that you already know you'll be fine. I'm a bit worried because you sound very solicitous in your description of your interactions. It will be your time to shine and to DB like it's the 9th inning of the World Series.


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Thanks MrBond and Mozza.


I keep hoping for the best while trying to prepare for the worst.

I just hope I can keep everything in mind and DB like a badace while I'm in the moment and not try to let my emotions overcome me.


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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This forum is littered with LBS meeting with WAW who say "I know I messed up" and then report that they cried, begged, threatened, etc. Don't be one of them. Understand, before you go there, that these things harm your chances of R. No single act will ruin it, but think of it like sports: you can't score in your own goal too many times.

OK, let's rehearse. Tell us what will be your reaction and your words to the following statements or actions.

1. When you arrive, she's distant and does not lean in to kiss you.
2. She asks you how you're doing.
3. She tells you she never loved you, all your M was bad.
4. She tells you she's thought about it and wants a D.
5. She tells you that reconciling is not in the cards.
6. She tells you she's really in love with OC.
7. She tells you things have been difficult for her since S.

Can you think of other situations of things she might say that would be difficult to handle? What would be your response?

Have a look at the validation cheat sheet again to prepare.

On of the techniques to successfully achieve a goal is to visualize it. This is what we're doing here.


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I would kindly ask what the subject matter is.

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Hi TenBook. Here's a link to my previous posts:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2544552&page=1

Basically after 7 weeks of separation, the wife called last night asking if she could come by to talk.


Okie Mozza. Here's what I think, I'm ready for any 2x4's for when I'm wrong or even need more improvement.

1) I would greet her cheerfully with a hello and wouldn't lean in for a kiss or a hug.
2) I would tell her I'm doing good and ask how she is doing.

Now it these seem a bit tougher to answer. These seem like they would be harder to keep cheerful though. There was one phrase in the validation cheat sheet that seemed a bit too clingy/desperate and I don't know if I should use it. It was "Gee, I'm so sorry that made you feel unloved. I never stopped loving you, but I guess I didn't express myself well enough." It feels like saying that would bring me to the brink of apologizing for everything I did wrong in the marriage. Although I feel like that's something I would like to do, I don't know if this is the right time to do so.

3) Keep calm. Pause and think.
Words: How best to validate this? Maybe with a "I'm sorry, I didn't know you felt that way" Do I say sorry? Is that forbidden?

4) Calmly nod and say "I'm sorry that you feel that way."
5) Calmly nod and say "I understand"
6) Oh. Really tough one here. Part of me feels like I need to validate that she has feelings for them and follow it up asking how they're doing (only because we have a history). Part of me feels like I should quickly acknowledge/validate her feelings and move on to a different subject. As for how to validate that, I'm a bit stumped. Maybe with "It sounds like they are really important to you"
7) Sympathize with her a bit and say something like "I can understand how difficult things have been for you. Would you tell me more about what you're going through?"


The things I worry about is her asking what I've been up to and how my therapy is going and how I'm changing.

I've read that I shouldn't give away all the details and keep my responses brief and more on the "I've been thinking about a lot of things" side. My IC has mentioned that I should go into a bit of detail about what kinds of changes I'm trying to implement. I feel that might lead to a big emotion filled apology session.

What if she does come in for a kiss and a hug at the beginning?
Return the hug/light kiss?

Or what if she does say she wants to work on things.
Part of me thinks I want to establish a boundary of:
"I will never allow myself to go through something like this again. If you would like for us to work on things, then I would like for us to work on them together. How would you propose we do that?" If she does say something along these lines, part of me wants to invite her to Easter Sunday mass this weekend.

All in all I need to keep in mind that I'm okay, I'll be okay either way after this meeting, and after the fallout from the meeting. It might be hard but I have friends and family who are there for me. I'll be returning to my own DB lifestyle with or without her willing to work on things and that I will be continuing to work on myself with or without her support.


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
"I want to have cats back" 5/4/15
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Very good on you for doing the exercise.

I'm just a newcomer and not all that good at handling these interactions. Hopefully a vet will come and tell you what they think of your actions. All I'll say is make sure you come across as happy, but not trying to make her happy. See what I mean? So you're in a cheerful disposition, but you're not trying to cheer her up.


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As the time ticks by I find myself getting more and more nervous :-/


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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One hour until dinner. Any other last minute tips??


Me:33 W:34
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D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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Remember that you can't convince her with words. She has checked out. You're the past, she's excited about the future. Put yourself in her shoes. She's probably as much interested in the M as you're interested in D. You won't talk her back into the M no more than she will talk you into accepting D tonight. Your plan is to make her reconsider you, in the long run, because she sees your changes and that you're moving on fine without her. This is no small task, but a good "performance" tonight will take you in the right direction. Don't be one of those LBS who come back saying "Sorry, I messed up". Be strong!


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No alcohol! Terrible for your self control and emotions.


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Quote:
I told her she could pick the place and how I was thinking of asking her to lunch or dinner. Again she said where ever I wanted.


From an attaction (chemistry) perspective you should be picking the restaurant. Ask for her input like type of food, but you should pick. She even told you with "again she said where ever I wanted".


Me: 45 W43
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I did eventually pick and she agreed to the place.

Sorry for the huge wall of text

So... that probably could've gone better.

I passed her in traffic but we wound up getting there at the same time. We said "hey" and walked into the restaurant together not saying much. We sat down and I noticed she had a different ring on her wedding ring finger. She got up to wash her hands and I texted my parents about what was going on.

When she came back she basically told me one of her clients from work died yesterday and how that got her to thinking about how she shouldn't leave things left unsaid. I tried to validate how she must be feeling because of that and she gave me a funny look.

She started to say she was sorry about ever hurting me and I returned the sentiment. She mentioned that we had been making each other miserable and that we had been growing apart for such a long time. That's when I started to tear up. I told her how I was sorry for ever hurting her, making her cry and breaking her heart. I told her I've been trying to become the person I was before she ever met me, she said I could strive to be the best person I wanted to be, not who I used to be. She mentioned something about how we were best friends but not a good husband and wife. I validated I understood how she could feel that way. I told her again I was sorry and hoped she could forgive me. She said she did.

She asked about my IC. I told her he wanted me to read the book "More than Two: the practical guide to ethical polyamory". She started asking about his name but I wouldn't give it to her. Since she's a therapist too I didn't want her to be able to look him up.

She asked how my mom was doing. We talked about some random stuff. Mostly about the cats, she said something about how they loved me more anyway.

She asked how I was doing and I said I was doing great, I asked how she was doing and she said ok. Later on she said something about how she's glad I'm happy and doing great. (Here's where I probably messed up...) I told her "I never said I was happy." She said "well you're smiling and you're saying you're doing great, you're looking really good, you look like you've lost a lot of weight".

She tried to restore to factory setting her phone and return it to me because she said she couldn't afford to pay it anymore. I told her "lets not make any rash decisions right now". She put the phone away. I mentioned that another student loan went through, she tried to pay me cash but I didn't wind up taking it.

When the check came we pitched in our shares. I told her it was fun, good seeing her and I hope we could do it again sometime. She told me she didn't know what to say. So I said well you then and got my coat and went to leave.

She caught up to me and mumbled something about us both going the same way. She asked if I wanted to get a drink because she felt like we still had a lot of things left unsaid. I told her we could and asked what she wanted to talk about. She didn't really have an answer to that.

She asked why I never called or texted except to ask about money. I told her, first of all I was giving her the space she asked for and that I never asked about the money. She texted me about it in the first place. She said that when she did text that evening I didn't reply so she figured I would reply when she asked about the money. I told her I was out with friends that evening and didn't get her text until I got home.

She asked again why I never called or texted and I told her that when I was calling and texting her in the beginning she said I wasn't giving her the space she asked for. She replied with "that's true". She later said something about me being happy and doing great and she figured I had moved on.

As we walked back to the cars she said something about how it hasn't been that long. I told her it was 7 weeks and next week it would be 2 months since I've seen her. She seemed surprised that it had been that long. She asked if she looked like a stranger to me, I told her no and asked her the same thing. She said yes. I asked if I had lost that much weight jokingly and she said yes again.

This entire time by the cars I was fighting back tears...but I never fully lost it.

We got the cars and continued talking for a bit. She finally broke down and said we could never get back together. I told her I could understand how she could feel that way. Again another funny look. I said that I know I haven't treated her like a good husband should and asked again for her to please forgive me. She said she did but then I told her how it's one thing to say you forgive someone it's another thing to truly forgive and forget the past. She said she wasn't angry anymore. We talked about songs that we had listened to in the past about being angry anymore (Ani Difranco if anyone's interested). I told her about my playlist I made and how at the top of my play list was "Think of me" from Phantom of the Opera. She said something about that being unfair.

I finally had to ask about her ring. I kept imagining she chucked it into the ocean when she went to Cancun. She mentioned that that idea was crazy. She said it was in her wallet. She said she was going to initially mail it back to my parents. But when she took the ring off she stopped being angry. I asked when she took it off and she said she didn't wear it to Cancun.

She asked about me going out with friends. I told her yeah I was going out with friends and asked what about her. She said she didn't have any friends left. I gave her a look and asked about her weekends. She asked if I was seeing anyone and I said nope. She then said that I knew where she was on the weekends. (With the OC) She mentioned something about me tracking her through the phone, I assured her I didn't. She mentioned that she was probably being paranoid. She asked if I still wanted to be friends and that she hoped we could be. I told her I didn't think we stopped being friends. I asked about the OW and if she missed me, she said that wasn't a fair question. I told her the OW had said she loved me once. She eventually told me that the OW did miss me. I told her my IC wanted me to be able to talk to the OW for support (he's very pro-poly). I told her it would be nice to hear from the OW. She asked me about the OM. I told her I missed his friendship. She said he said likewise. I asked if we could ever all hangout some weekend. She said maybe eventually.

She mentioned that she still worried about me, and that she had checked my bank account to check in on me. She returned her bank cards to me, I took them but I also mentioned that I hadn't changed the locks or changed the bank account because she hadn't done anything vindictive. She asked if I thought she did (other than leaving me) I told her no and asked her the same. She also said no. She started complaining again that she couldn't afford a whole lot. That she racked up $4k on her credit card to move into her new apartment, but then also said that I could keep the furniture we had. I asked her about her furniture and she said all she had was a mattress on the floor, no internet, sheets and a pillow. She started to try to return the phone again because, despite only having 3 bills to pay which are WAY less that what I have to pay AND the fact that we make the same amount of money, she couldn't afford to pay it. I told her not to worry about it. She asked if I could cancel her phone line and I told her I would look into it and that in the meantime she could pay for the car insurance and I would pay for the phone bill. (Didn't detach enough there maybe??).

She asked if I ever wanted to call her or text her this entire time, I told her how ever since she left for vacation and she said we could have lunch I had been looking forward to it. I told her that all I've been wanted to do is ask her to lunch, and not to talk about the past or the future but to just have lunch with her. She said that we could do that and she told me I could call her or text her anytime I wanted. I told her she couldn't tell me that, she figured that if she did then I would do it all the time, and said I could email her instead. I asked her what about weekends (because she seems to turn her phone off when she's spending time with the OC). She said I could just email her. I asked what if something happened to one of the cats (one of them is like 15-16 years old at this point), she said she didn't even think of that before I mentioned it. She told me to just call her. (Maybe that was too controlling bringing up the cat.)

I told her I was ashamed of the person I became and how I've been trying to find the person I want to be and asked if she might want to join me at church on Sunday. She broke down crying saying that it was unfair because when she wanted to go to church 2 Christmases ago, I didn't go with her, and when she got back she said she wound up at a Spanish mass and she said I laughed at her. I told her again that I was sorry that I didn't support her. She said no that she didn't think it was a good idea to go with me. She said I didn't support her even though she was really depressed and hurting, and that the only reason she started meds recently for her depression was because I was saying she was miserable to be around. She was on meds as a kid and she said she never wanted to be on them again, but now she can't be off of them. I mentioned that I thought I was depressed as well before she left, she said that she thought my depression came out as anger.

I asked her what she wanted me to do. She didn't really have an answer for that either, but she did say she that I could call her and text her. I told her okay, thanks for dinner and left.

After I got home I texted her to make sure she got home okay (she was saying how she wanted to leave before it got dark because she doesn't like to drive in the dark). She said yes she did and that she had to stop to get gas. I told her "ah okay. thanks again for meeting me for dinner! have a good night". She replied with "I'm glad I did. We can have lunch sometime. Good night"

Part of me wishes that I could tell her about the part of marriage after the honeymoon phase. About where it becomes a choice and how I feel her concern for my well-being and safety is part of that choice of loving someone... she could easily counter with that she chooses not to love me anymore though too.

Anyways that was my evening.

So thoughts???


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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Thanks a lot for the detailed recount. I read it all, of course. I was looking forward to it.

Well, that went better than I expected.

Of course, the tearing up is no good. As in: not attractive, not good for R, backsliding, etc. I'm hard on you because you need to get that under control. It's the undoing of many LBH. And you already know that "I never said I was happy" was not a good line. You had played it well up to that point.

Also, I don't get why you didn't accept the phone, etc. When it comes to money, treat her like a business associate. Don't be generous. Don't be mean or stingy either. Just treat her expenses as hers, without emotions.

Another thing is to avoid all pursuing. The text asking her if she got home was a bit too much in my opinion. You don't want to reassure her constantly that you are there. You want her to feel the void, to feel like you're slipping through her fingers. That will force you to leave her unsatisfied with you which I'm sure will be difficult given your profile.

The validation was good. In general, you came across as a changing man and that's very, very good. Especially since those are positive changes from her perspective. That's all you could hope for at this stage and you mostly delivered. I even like when she got upset that you made certain changes after she left. Those are the kind of things that will make her think long and hard in the coming months.

In general, I'm impressed at how much interest she has for you. Many WW don't want anything to do with their LBH. The risk is that you enter the friendzone with her, which I didn't think possible at first, but does happen to a few LBH who try to be supportive or who meet the expectations of the WW for the post-D relationship. Keep on being independent, mysterious, improved, etc. Don't become her gay boyfriend.

Minman2, I'm probably giving you too much feedback because I'm no vet after all. I just feel more comfortable in sitches that are still early like yours, and people with your profile, that match my own after BD.

Keep at it.


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I guess I am just too emotional for my own good.

Part of me thinks I didn't accept the phone because that would seem like another step in finality and then I wouldn't have a way to reach out to her if I needed to. (Control issue? Fear of losing control?) She didn't give me her current address, I doubt she would give me her new number.

That text I sent was the first self initiated text since week 2. She seemed convinced that I had moved on, which I suppose is the point, so I guess I stupidly thought I would send a text to make sure her lines of communication were still open.

I worry about the friendzone as well, I think that's why I didn't say yes right away when she asked if we could still be friends.

I wanted SO badly to reach out and hug her, especially when she was full out crying.

My mom kept asking last night if I thought it was a good or bad thing that I saw her. I told her I didn't know, I felt like I was just getting to the point where I missed her but it didn't hurt SO badly anymore and now I feel like I just reopened old wounds.

My mom is convinced that it was still a good meeting because the W seemed to show a lot of concern about me and while she was willing to give up the phone she still didn't want to give up the apt key.

There are still bits of and pieces I'm remembering. Like at one point she asked again if I wanted her to take the cats. I told her no. She said she thought I might want to get a dog because I've wanted one for a while now and she felt bad that I never could get one. I told her I loved the cats and was happy they were around. She mentioned something about it seeming like I'm taking better care of them than she ever did.

There was a point near the end, maybe just after we talked about the OC, where she mentioned something about her having new goals now, I asked her if she would tell me those goals. She mentioned moving for her new position in Fl, how she was going to be management there and how she was going to run her own facility. She then went on to tell me that I'm no longer tethered to anyone and I could look for any job I wanted. I told her I never felt tethered, she responded with "you always called it the two-body problem". I told her that's how its just referred to in academia because if you move to a new location you want to make sure both people have jobs awaiting for them, but it's not really a "problem".


Me:33 W:34
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D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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PMA is WAY down today. Had IC this morning.

He seemed to think that I wasn't authentic enough, and that I missed an opportunity to reconfirm to the W that I was willing to work on the M. He said that it seemed to him that she was probing for something and that might have been the recommitment from me.

He also said that it seems to him that the W said the "We can never get back together" under no uncertain terms. He asked what I thought about it. I mentioned the "trust nothing they say and only 50% of what they do." He went on to say that as the new person that I want to become in our R, I would have to carefully listen to what she said and take her words as truth. He mentioned that with other women he's worked with that are in the same position as the W that saying those word were really hard. So the fact that she said it meant that she was telling me exactly what she wanted.

I mentioned some of the other things she said like the friendship and lunches she wants to have, and how she asked about if I even wanted to reach out to her. The IC mentioned that it does cast some doubt on her statement, but more than likely she was doing those things out of guilt of how bad she was making me feel.

I asked him if he thought most people on the brink of divorce could come back from it, he said yes, under two conditions. 1) They both have to be committed to working on the R and I forgot what he mentioned as the second one.

For whatever reason that made me seriously consider finding a new therapist...

He said I have 2 options now. 1) Wait. Don't stir the pot, see what happens. He mentioned the only drawback to that is time is ticking away. 2) Sit down with her and ask her what she really wants and try to work out where we are going from here. He mentioned that the only drawback to this is that I would have to be prepared for whatever her answer may be.

He wrapped up by asking if she new 100% without a doubt her answer, and that answer was she didn't want to be with me, would I want to know?

That immediately made me tear up again... guess he had his answer.

He said that I should just wait then and try to refocus on myself.


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So... I've been thinking. The W had a client pass away at work and that was the reason she reached out to me in the first place. She texted Wednesday at 5:30 but my phone never got it (computer at work did though, so that's how I know the time), she called 2 hours later asking if she could come over to talk and that was the basis of having dinner yesterday.

Now I know I wasn't emotionally supportive of her during our M, so do I pull a 180 here and try to reach out to her to make sure she's doing okay?? It was a client she was close to and a lot of the other staff liked, so she seemed to take it pretty hard.

Part of me worries this goes against detaching but then I worry it's more of the same behavior of not being emotionally supportive to her.

Any thoughts?


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Food for thought for the previous question.

One of the things I was able to confirm was she feels like she has no friends around (other than the OC). She said all the friends she did have (me included) have been bad friends because we never supported her and now she doesn't have anyone else around.

So that tells me all she has is the OC and MAYBE some of her family helping her along in her decisions...

What should I do??


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I thought you wanted to stop the poly lifestyle since it got you to this point. So you still want to continue it?


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We wanted to stop the swinging, I would like to stop the poly lifestyle but I'm willing to be poly flexible if the sitch works out that way.

I think more importantly my IC wants a bit of closure between me and the OC. The OW and I were intimate and there was no point of closure between us.

I think it was more of me that brought me to this point, the W mentioned that she had been thinking of leaving for a while yesterday (WAS!!). I think it was the OC that allowed the W a point of escape. I think I have to get myself to the point of being able to forgive and forget the past with them. They are after all the only ones looking after the W right now, no matter how much they might support her waywardness (I think they gave her that ring she was wearing last night!! mad )


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Originally Posted By: Miman2
We wanted to stop the swinging, I would like to stop the poly lifestyle but I'm willing to be poly flexible if the sitch works out that way.


I believe I said this before, but you seem to know deep down what you really want yet keep contradicting yourself. You don't want this lifestyle but your willing to keep doing it if you get to keep your W. Why? You really have some soul searching to do on this issue before you make any type of decision. If you truly don't want this and the sole reason is to get your W back then these problems will just resurface in the future. Stand up for what you really want, be true to yourself.

You said you both wanted to stop this at one point, who's to say she doesn't want to stop also but is confused right now. I would much rather attract my W back to the man I want to be instead of pretending to be something I THINK she wants. Become the man YOU want to be first.


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Honestly it doesn't seem like you want to stop your poly lifestyle. You go to church, yet you find a counselor who appears to encourage the poly life to a degree and you actually asked your W about the OC's W and how she feels about you.

WHO CARES? Are you married to the OW? Are you trying to reconcile with the OW? If not, then why ask?

You don't seem to want to do the work to get yourself strong and not have to depend on women to make you happy.


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I was referred to my current counselor by my previous counselor specifically because my case involved swinging and poly. I guess the previous counselor thought that handing me over to someone with experience with swinging and poly would put me in the best hands.

He seemed to think that the OC's W would be someone I could get support from. She was a friend and she no longer treats me as such. Anyone might seek closure from that. Other than that it's a point of common interest to talk to the W with. Nothing more than that.

Originally Posted By: MrBond
You don't seem to want to do the work to get yourself strong and not have to depend on women to make you happy.


I don't know where you got that from at all. I don't need women to make me happy, being a kind considerate person makes me happy. Helping people and teaching people makes me happy. Maybe I don't understand how I'm failing at doing the work to get my self strong, or maybe I don't understand what work you refer to.

What I've been trying to say is I know they OC has a part in playing in getting me to where I am. But I KNOW that a majority of the fault lies within me and how I've acted. How is that not getting stronger? I'm tackling my issues face first and knocking them out one-by-one as they come up. I'm facing up to my down falls and not blaming someone else. I'm trying to forgive someone else who has played their part and move on. If that's not being strong and being the better person then I don't know what in the hell is.

I mentioned trying to go without interacting with the W before I was ready but she beat me to the punch. She's hurting because of her loss and I was emotionally unsupportive during our M. So I'm wondering if it would be a good 180 at this point in time to try and be more supportive.

A lot of her questions the other day centered around the fact that I hadn't tried to reach out to her and if I even had ever wanted to during my LRT. Now during this time where she's emotionally most vulnerable I'm not supposed to be there to support her? I'm not bailing her out of a situation she got her self into or crossing any other lines set by the act of detaching. I'm acting out of pure compassion and empathy like any good person would. How is that not strong?

Can we not focus on the swinging/poly so much?
Is it something I can really work on right now?
Other than not fracking or falling in love with someone else at the moment then no.

Otherwise it is a personal boundary that I have to decide upon by myself. The W already thinks I've moved on and have no interest in reaching out to her enough as it is. If I draw that line too far then she'll see absolutely no doors open.

I cannot allow myself or my actions to be judged purely by where I choose to draw that boundary. I believe there's a current thread here where there is a debate on whether or not dating while separated is allowable. That too is a personal boundary that each person needs to be allowed to set by themselves, other people are entitled to their opinions. While I appreciate the sentiment, I do not appreciate the judgement that comes along for the ride.

Instead I have come to ask for help on the implementation of DB and DR as it applies to my WAS. What I would like is some constructive criticism. What am I doing right and why, what needs improvement and why...

On a side note: After a lot of thought I do consider it a baby-step victory that she said good night to me in her text last night.


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Originally Posted By: Miman2


I mentioned trying to go without interacting with the W before I was ready but she beat me to the punch. She's hurting because of her loss and I was emotionally unsupportive during our M. So I'm wondering if it would be a good 180 at this point in time to try and be more supportive.


Bumping this because I've been thinking about this the last day and was wondering also.

I know you probably done hearing so much about the poly situation, but it's what makes the situation so complicated, so advice has to take that into account at times. A 180 like that to a WW might not be appropriate, but since you and W were apart of the lifestyle it's confusing if it's more a WW or WAW situation.

My opinion also(could be completely wrong to DB), if you want to follow your counselors advice and you trust it, try it. You know the situation best, counselor likely second best.

As for not working on the poly/swinging thing right now, you absolutely can. Within yourself. Figure out what you want. Determine the man you want to be, just don't do it for your W, your counselor or these forums. Figure it out for yourself. That's likely to take a while but you need to address it at some point.


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Not a great PMA day today. Went to the Japanese meetup but felt alone in a group of people. Tried talking to people but my mind kept drifting back to my problems. I snapped the rubber band on my wrist like crazy but still too much hurt coming through. frown


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Originally Posted By: Fogg
I know you probably done hearing so much about the poly situation, but it's what makes the situation so complicated, so advice has to take that into account at times. A 180 like that to a WW might not be appropriate, but since you and W were apart of the lifestyle it's confusing if it's more a WW or WAW situation.


That has been my dilemma the entire time.
Everything she has said and everything she has done has WAW written all over it.
The fact that she's continued to see the OC that we were both involved with that makes it feel like it's a WW situation.

But the core issue on why we're S now has very little to do with the OC. From what I've seen and heard from the W she was ready to walk with or without them around. They supplied a shoulder for her to lean on while she made her move. I'm not saying they didn't play any part. I'm not saying that being in the lifestyle didn't play its part.

I've opened that Pandora's box and I have to live with having done so.
The man I want to be supports his W's decisions no matter what they may be, as long as they don't infringe on my boundaries.

So if I may for a moment try to logically think things out loud...
Ever since my IC has mentioned the MTT book here's where it feels like my boundaries lay.
Is swinging in my boundaries? No.
Can a poly relationship be within my boundaries? Maybe, but that in itself has more boundaries that are in place to protect myself. If those boundaries are not respected then no. Right now the W is not respecting those boundaries and so my answer would have to be no.

Did I express my boundaries to her and the OC? Sorta, definitely not in the most eloquently way possible. We were all new to this and so we had no idea what we were doing. Everyone else didn't see how my boundaries could be construed as anything other than jealousy and so they ignored my uncomfort with them crossing my boundaries and thus my feelings were hurt. The W stated she didn't care about my boundaries because of the ILYBINILYW, signature of the WAW. So that's why I would have to say no to the poly-lifestyle. Had the situation played out different, who knows...


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Your logic makes sense, I just don't know what your best course of action is. Its rough because its so different than some situations are.

I do understand that frustration though, trust me. In my case I had the WAW issues just as you did, which were set off by the miscarriage and wife becoming depressed W, leading to becoming WW to fill that void. I struggled with identifying her for a long time. Is she WAW, is she depressed W, is she WW? Each seemed to have a slightly different approach to DB'ing, so I felt I needed to know which so I could DB effectively.

I still don't know if the way I'm DB'ing is correct, but I'm taking into considering the advice on here, my IC's suggestions and what I think also. As of right now I'm taking bits of each and incorporating them together. Remember, there's no guaranteed way to do all of this, were all just somewhat going with what could work. DB has shown it can work, so its something we try. As for which your W is, if you feel she is more WAW, then try to DB that way and see what happens. Just understand she is also WW to some extent, so be prepared to back off if the things your doing don't seen to be working.

Also, please understand I really don't know what I'm talking about 100%, I'm just throwing out ideas. Its a blind leading the blind situation right now and I would hate to give you advice that would hurt your situation.


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I understand that it's the blind leading the blind completely. lol
That's part of the reason I hesitate to poke into other people's threads. I try to just leave good wishes or occasionally my opinion.

Here's the thing.

For the WW the advice is to cut off all contact from them until they leave the OP.

The other night when talking to my W she seemed genuinely upset that I didn't reach out or even seem like I wanted to reach out to her. She even mentioned she thought I was happy, doing great and had moved on because I didn't reach out to her.

If I'm supposed to experiment and see what works it seems like I might have her attention for the time being but 100% NC she will decide that I've moved on and now so can she. She's usually not the type to reach out, so the fact that she called me the other day was actually a bit of a surprise. I worry now that if I continue NC she'll see it as me not caring, even though it's DB. I feel like I need to allow her to check in a bit more often so she can see the changes but I'm trying to figure out how to do it without "pursuing" :-/


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PMA started low today. Had dreams about the W and kept waking up every 2 hours. :-/

Called my mom on the way to church this morning. She's convinced that because I worry, I don't have enough faith in God to help me during this situation. That me worrying is a sign that I don't have enough faith.

I told her I feel it's not that. I have faith that God will help me during this situation, but when I have my therapist and friends telling me to let go because it's over, it rattles me and makes me sad. I keep trying to focus on the positive signs that came out of having dinner with the W.

She's still concerned about me.
She worries about me.
She wonders why I haven't reached out to her.
She worries that I never wanted to reach out to her.
She wants to be friends.
She wants to still meet up.
She wants me to keep in touch with her.
No actual mention of D.
She acknowledged I was taking great care of the cats.
She acknowledged I was looking great/lost a lot of weight and that she noticed I was wearing a shirt she had put away because it didn't fit.
She asked if I was seeing anyone.
She was curious about me "going out with friends".
She texted that she was glad we had dinner and said good night afterwards.

The negative stuff can be dealt with...

After church the father came up and asked how I was doing. When I went to him for reconciliation he mentioned he could find a list of faith friendly IC's for me. I told him a bit about the dinner on Thursday and told him I'd like to look for a new councilor and maybe do another reconciliation with him.

Afterwards on the way home, talked to the parents a bit more. PMA picked up significantly. Not 100% but better than this morning.


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PMA is moderate today.

Feeling occasional heavy pangs of missing the W.
I'm trying to keep the faith and keep doing good for myself.

I REALLY want to invite her over to see the cats and have dinner tomorrow though. :-/

I feel bad that she's going through a loss from her client dying.

She stated that she has no friends anymore.
The detached part of me wants to let her live with her decision to be all alone.

The "new me" doesn't want her to have to suffer through the loss alone.
Other than (maybe) eating together I think I would try to keep myself busy doing other things, leaving her to spend time with the cats.


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Hi Miman

I think you're best to listen to the more detached part of you. Extending invites to your W may push her further away right now. If she needs you and wants to talk to you, she knows where you are...

T :-)


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Thanks Toots,

That makes sense.

I worry that she's as far away from me without starting the D process though.

During our dinner the other night she kept asking why I didn't reach out to her and if I had even wanted to reach out to her during these past 7.5 weeks.

I'm trying to be strong, but meeting with her really messed with my head this past weekend.

Like I said earlier, I felt like I was almost at the point where nothing she could've said would've bothered me. But now she has me doubting my every move. :-/


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Called around to see if I could find a new IC. I found a clinic that mentioned solution focused therapy. I called them up and as they were doing the intake questions they mentioned DB and how they worked with MWD maybe 20 years ago.

I guess I have a decision to make about my current IC...


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Hi Miman,

I haven't gone back through your sitch but from your recent posts I would ask have you read about pursuit and distance. It would appear on the surface of it that as you're pulling away from your wife, you're changing the dynamic. As a result of this your W would like you to restart your pursuit of her so you two can do the same old dannce. Be strong and hold back from comforting your W at this time would be my advice right now.


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"Can we not focus on the swinging/poly so much? "

Actually you're the one who brings it up. You asked about the OW and said you miss her. So the question again is do you want to continue your poly lifestyle after she comes back?

The kind of advice you get will dependent on that.


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Thanks alpha!

I'm leaning that way as well.
I'm feeling pretty damn disconnected this afternoon.
Other than a few angry thoughts about the OC I haven't had an episode about the W since about lunch.

MrBond let me guess:

If I say yes,
Originally Posted By: MrBond
"I'd like to leave it all behind, I could try to give the poly thing another shot maybe."

Really? Then you'll find yourself in the same problem again.

If I say no, then me reaching out to her is a sign of weakness and then...
Originally Posted By: MrBond
You don't seem to want to do the work to get yourself strong and not have to depend on women to make you happy.


The truth of the matter is I don't want to continue it.
The thought of losing the W, losing the history we've had, over something as silly as she-wants-to-do-something-that-we-used-to-do-and-now-I-don't-want-to-do, saddens me.
Especially after seeing her wearing that other ring.

Me wanting out is part of what drove her to leave.
She kept mentioning that we wanted different things out of life and maybe we shouldn't be together because of it.

Can I get over it? Sure.
Does the thought of it right now send me into fits of sadness?
No, but it does cause a dip in my happiness.
Does it make my sitch seem like a lost cause. A little bit...


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It's not a lost cause, but if that is the path you want to take, then your actions and words have to follow it.

How specific have you been with your W about wanting to end the poly lifestyle? The thing that probably scares her is that you got her into it when she didn't want to and now you want to leave it while she's in it is all control on your part. She wants to be her own person and probably sees this as a way of being that.


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Well when I felt the W getting emotionally distant I told her I didn't want to spend as much time with the OC because I felt we didn't get to spend as much time together. I told her it made me miserable to spend time with them because we didn't get time together. I had also told her it was boring hanging out with them because all they wanted to do was eat, sleep, sex and cuddle.

Because of what I've said to her she got the impression that I wanted out, and that I was jealous.

Funny thing is while I talked her into swinging, the poly thing kinda just came up and we both went with it.

My IC is thinking the W is having a discovery period because she gets to be with a female she finds attractive and is in love with. So yeah in a way I can agree with the "being her own person" in that aspect.


PMA doing pretty good today. Felt a bit lonely after getting ready for work and had a small pity party for myself. Going to a new meetup this evening. This one's supposed to be a depression/anxiety support group so we'll see how it goes.


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"Well when I felt the W getting emotionally distant I told her I didn't want to spend as much time with the OC because I felt we didn't get to spend as much time together."

Don't you see that all you've been doing is controlling her? And when you wanted out, that was more control.

"I told her it made me miserable to spend time with them because we didn't get time together. I had also told her it was boring hanging out with them because all they wanted to do was eat, sleep, sex and cuddle."

Have you learned anything from this? Those activities are what build intimacy. She wanted that from YOU. But you said they were boring. That's what she needs.

"Because of what I've said to her she got the impression that I wanted out, and that I was jealous."

You were.

"Funny thing is while I talked her into swinging, the poly thing kinda just came up and we both went with it."

But the bottom line is that you started it. It's your responsibility. Now the problem is that because you started this, you wanting to end it is seen as control.

"My IC is thinking the W is having a discovery period because she gets to be with a female she finds attractive and is in love with. So yeah in a way I can agree with the "being her own person" in that aspect."

I disagree with that. He's just concentrating on your poly relationship when from a marriage stand you had rough problems to begin with. She's with the OC because she feels they allow her to be her own person as she is and no control.


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Originally Posted By: MrBond
"I told her it made me miserable to spend time with them because we didn't get time together. I had also told her it was boring hanging out with them because all they wanted to do was eat, sleep, sex and cuddle."

Have you learned anything from this? Those activities are what build intimacy. She wanted that from YOU. But you said they were boring. That's what she needs.


I could just do "eat, sleep, sex, and cuddle" with my W all day and be content never doing anything else. I loved talking and spending time just cuddling in bed with her. We spent many weekends both in the beginning and towards the end doing just that.

It was when the OC was in the picture as well that it became boring. The OW wouldn't pay me the attention that I felt I needed. She would turn her back to me and I felt like a third (fourth?) wheel. I guess while I felt it was boring she had 2 other people doting on her giving her that rush of feeling loved.

Originally Posted By: MrBond
"Well when I felt the W getting emotionally distant I told her I didn't want to spend as much time with the OC because I felt we didn't get to spend as much time together."

Don't you see that all you've been doing is controlling her? And when you wanted out, that was more control.


So saying I don't want that relationship with her and them anymore is more control?

She made her decision that she wants that relationship.
Therefore saying I don't want to be poly with them effectively ends the relationship between me and the W.
Unless she changes her mind later I guess.

Which changes my previous statement from:

Does it make my sitch seem like a lost cause. A little bit...

to

Does it make my sitch seem like a lost cause. Very much so.

So our relationship is dead and done, unless I let go of that control and allow her to make the choice and support that choice.
But that would be allowing myself to depend on women to make me happy.

Damned if I do and damned if I don't.
Sure as hell seems like a lost cause to me.
But that's alright I guess, at this point I don't know if I care anymore.
I miss her but she's gone, my marriage is over, our relationship is over.
She's made her choice and she's sticking with it for now.


Me:33 W:34
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D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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Journaling a bit.

The dinner I had with the W had me messed up all weekend. I felt like I had a serious setback from all the progress I was making. All of a sudden she was all that consumed my thoughts again.

Yesterday after work I went and picked up some groceries and started looking at items that she wouldn't allow in the house (she HATED beans etc.) and that made me feel a little better.

Later in the evening when I was at home, I pulled up an online dating website. I started looking at profiles of women looking for someone in their lives. As I was looking I kept thinking "nah, I want my W back" but something funny happened.

Some background.
My W was never really out going. Most of her friends were mostly by association because they were friends with me. She's worked at her facility for 4 years now and the only close friend she had there was someone she went to school with. That friend wound up getting a job somewhere else and now the W doesn't really have anyone at work who she would consider more than an acquaintance. That friend doesn't even really reach out to her anymore either, she's even been spending time with other people from the company her and the W worked for.

After 4 years with the company there's still people the W is just now getting around to saying hello to. In her mind no one liked her because they never said hello to her first. She's had this mentality since we started going out. No one at school liked her because no one talked to her etc.

So there I was looking around at profiles and I noticed women with pictures with groups of friends. Lots of friends. It occurred to me that there are people out there who are total opposites of who my W was.

The prospect of someone radically different seemed exciting. I began looking for women with other different aspects (for example I'm taller than her by more than a foot, hair color, eye color, education) and it opened up my mind a whole lot more. I think by seeing what's out there I was able to detach quite a bit more. All of a sudden I didn't feel like I had that excruciating longing that had brought me crumbling down. It was a fun little exercise. I still have my dips, my moments of missing her. But I feel different now.


Me:33 W:34
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"It was when the OC was in the picture as well that it became boring. The OW wouldn't pay me the attention that I felt I needed."

And that there explains my earlier comment of you seeming to need women to make you happy and feel needed.

"So saying I don't want that relationship with her and them anymore is more control?"

Yes. Are you actually reading what I wrote? You convinced her to start swinging (control because YOU wanted it), according to her, you asked her to do things she felt uncomfortable about (again, control because YOU wanted it), and now that you want out from the OC, you want her to do the same. Control.

"Therefore saying I don't want to be poly with them effectively ends the relationship between me and the W."

Not really. This isn't an "all or nothing" thing.
Unless she changes her mind later I guess.

"So our relationship is dead and done, unless I let go of that control and allow her to make the choice and support that choice."

No one said you had to support her choice. You can understand and respect the fact that she has a RIGHT to that choice based on what she's experienced. That's validation. I thought you read the books? It explains it all there.

"But that would be allowing myself to depend on women to make me happy."

Again, you're missing the point. You can validate her feelings.

"Damned if I do and damned if I don't.
Sure as hell seems like a lost cause to me.
But that's alright I guess, at this point I don't know if I care anymore.
I miss her but she's gone, my marriage is over, our relationship is over.
She's made her choice and she's sticking with it for now."

Do you really feel that way or are you just throwing yourself a pity party? If you feel that way, then go ahead and file the papers. It took 3 years until my situation started turning around. If you don't have the patience for this, then you move on. Simple as that.


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Originally Posted By: MrBond
"So our relationship is dead and done, unless I let go of that control and allow her to make the choice and support that choice."

No one said you had to support her choice. You can understand and respect the fact that she has a RIGHT to that choice based on what she's experienced. That's validation. I thought you read the books? It explains it all there.


Validation:
I can understand how you would like to continue a poly-relationship with the OC.
They make you feel good, feel good about yourself, allow you to be yourself and they don't try to control you.

Boundary: I don't want to be in a poly-relationship.

Outcome:
Relationship between me and W is done. 99.99% - time*??% likely.
Relationship between me and W continues. <0.01% + time*??% likely.

Validation or not, the point was unless I support her choice our relationship seems like it's done for now.

Originally Posted By: MrBond
"Damned if I do and damned if I don't.
Sure as hell seems like a lost cause to me.
But that's alright I guess, at this point I don't know if I care anymore.
I miss her but she's gone, my marriage is over, our relationship is over.
She's made her choice and she's sticking with it for now."

Do you really feel that way or are you just throwing yourself a pity party? If you feel that way, then go ahead and file the papers. It took 3 years until my situation started turning around. If you don't have the patience for this, then you move on. Simple as that.


Yes, I do feel that way. Isn't that the kind of the point?
To detach and GAL to the point where you can get here.
I'm not saying I don't care about her or what happens.
I'm not saying I give up on trying to save our relationship.

What I'm saying is:
I don't care if she's continuing to see the OC or not.
I don't care if she got her own place.
I don't care that she racked up $4k in debt.
I don't care that she can barely keep enough money in her account to feed herself.
I don't care if she's alienated any friends she might of had.
I don't care if she's alone at night during the week.
I don't care if she cries herself to sleep at night.
Because she has made those decisions for herself, there's nothing I can do about them.

Originally Posted By: JamesJohn
It's when you are no longer willing to put your life on hold while you are "waiting" for your partner to "recover" from their MLC, depression, an on-going affair, their lack of love for you, or whatever. You realize that you are in charge of your own life, that YOU are responsible for YOU, and you don't have to sit around in limbo until THEY change. You totally quit playing the "blame game". It's when you realize that you are not a "victim" to what life deals to you.


I love her but the reality of the situation is our marriage and our relationship, as I know it, is over.
There's nothing I can do to try to bring her back.
Other than hoping and praying she has a change of heart.
I have a total lack of control of the situation.
Does it make me mad? No.
There's no point in getting mad about it.
From here I can't try to wait around on her.
From here I can only focus on myself.
Right?


Me:33 W:34
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For most, if not all of us our marriage and relationship was over at BD, we just didn't realize it at the time. There really is nothing we can do to bring them back, that's the hard point, they have to do it themselves.

Yes we focus on ourselves at this point, that's all we can do. I wouldn't say it's about waiting around for them, more that we move on and if they join us later then you cross that bridge when you come to it.


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Journaling...

GAL report:
Went to the depression/anxiety meetup last night.
I'm pretty sure I was the youngest one there by at least 20 years.
A quick look around the table showed I was the only one wearing a wedding band.
We wound up playing a trivia game. It was fun, but towards the end of the night thoughts of my W kept creeping back into my head.
The town the meeting was taking place in was the town we had always talked about settling down in, if we stayed here long term.
Walking back to the car, through the streets we held hands and lovingly strolled down many times, was tough.
I didn't go full meltdown but I did have a cry session.

PMA report:
Down this morning.
When I'm alone with my thoughts I keep having an imaginary discussion with the W.
One of the last things I was asking her last week was what it was she wanted from me.
It seems like she wants me to reach out to her, to call her, text her and email her, on her own time.
If she doesn't want to hear from me she turns her phone off or on "Do not disturb".
She still wants us to be friends and says we can have lunch together.
She also seems to want me to be at her beck and call.
She seemed to get upset that I didn't reply back to her right away the last couple of times she tried to get a hold of me.
She said she knew resorting to talking about money would get me to respond the one time (I was out with friends).

I keep imagining having to say goodbye to her when she moves and that brings me to tears.
Reminds me of: “The two hardest things to say in life are hello for the first time and goodbye for the last.” &#8213; Moira Rogers
I don't want to have to say goodbye. Not now and (really) not ever.
I keep feeling like I'm in a movie where the two people are holding on to each other as one is falling off a cliff, but they know that neither will make it if they keep holding on. So they choose to let go.
My mind keeps screaming that it's not ready to let go.
It may never be ready to let go.
So I just start to miss her again and I cry...

Yay, pity parties are fun, aren't they?

Board game night again tonight. It will be more of along my lines of crowd and scene, so that should be fun.
There's one meetup that's doing intro to salsa dancing tomorrow from 8:30 until 11.
I want to go but my bedtime has been between 9 and 10 for the past 2 months. Feels like that would really cut into my routine.

IC tomorrow. I feel like I need try to and see if we can focus on different things. So far the last 6-7 meetings all he's really been doing is kind of giving me insight on physiologically why I'm feeling the way I'm feeling, "crisis management" as he's referred to it. I don't feel like he's given me any real direction on what I should do about my issues or things for me to work on.


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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"Validation:
I can understand how you would like to continue a poly-relationship with the OC.
They make you feel good, feel good about yourself, allow you to be yourself and they don't try to control you. "

That's not validation. Validation is "While I don't support your relationship with the OC, I understand how you and why you feel the way you do."

"Yes, I do feel that way. Isn't that the kind of the point?"

Point of what? Feeling sorry for yourself? There's nothing wrong with you doing that but it isn't going to bring her back.

"Because she has made those decisions for herself, there's nothing I can do about them."

Yes you can. You can learn from them.

"I love her but the reality of the situation is our marriage and our relationship, as I know it, is over.
There's nothing I can do to try to bring her back. "

Yes you can. If not, then why are you here? I will tell you that EVERY success story has the WAS telling the LBS that they were never coming back, etc. Mine included. Yet they did. It's up to you on what to do to get to that point.


M-43 W-40
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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
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Hello Miman2,

I agree completely with MrBond. smile

Bob


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
M:14 yrs
T:15 yrs
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Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
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Originally Posted By: MrBond
It's up to you on what to do to get to that point.


Any other advise on getting me to that point?
Any other questions I need to ask myself or consider to help me get to that point?

I had IC today. I went in there thinking I wasn't going to talk about the W at all so we could try to focus on other issues I know I need to deal with (anger, codependency, controlling etc.) but we wound up talking about her anyway.

He seemed to finally get on the same page as I am, saying that I'm accepting of her stance but I'm not giving up hope. He still wants me to reach out to her in maybe 2-3 weeks.

He kept referring to it as an unstable stability. That my new norm is this day to day life of focusing on myself and not worrying about her, but at the same time still hoping that we can work things out eventually.

I asked him about issues to work on and he said we can start to consider them next time. He was saying one of the things that's hard to work out about some of those issues is they are dependent on the relationship. That what may be codependent in one relationship might not be in another. That and the fact that I'm not currently in the relationship so we have do rely on memories, which might not be 100% reliable.

GAL last night at board game night was lots of fun. I've gone 4 times now and people are starting to recognize me as a regular, they might not remember my name yet but it's still lots of fun.

There's another one tonight at a different location, thinking of checking that one out as well. laugh


Me:33 W:34
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D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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Get out and GAL and you'll get stronger. At the same time, learn about communication and how men and women relate to one another.


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Ignorance, yet knowledge.
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Any recommendations for books on communication and how men and women relate to one another?


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Beyond DB and DR, the cannons around here are No More Mr Nice Guy, The 5 Love Languages and Codependency No More. They're very often mentioned around here and I'm surprised you haven't heard of them yet — make sure you read other people's sitches to learn about your own.

I'd like to add to the list Models: Attracting Women Through Honesty by Mark Manson. The first few chapters are about attraction, neediness and vulnerability.


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I have 5LL and I know I heard of NMMNG.
I think I saw the codependency no more mentioned somewhere.
Is the workbook for CNM a good one?

I'll have to look into Models.



Me:33 W:34
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D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
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How do I best interact with mutual friends who don't "know" ?

I just ran in to two friends of hers from school over lunch. After graduation they barely talk anymore.

I asked if they had seen her lately and they said no, but one of them was supposed to start doing some work at the company W works at.

I told them we'd been separated for 2 months now. They were shocked. I mentioned that it's probably not my place to say anything, they mentioned that it's something that's happening me and I can talk about it if I wanted.

I mentioned how she said she had no one around her friendwise and how she doesn't seem to be talking to anyone else. They expressed their condolences, well wishes that things worked out and hopes that the next time they see me it will be under better conditions.

Should I just have said hello asked how they were doing and gone about my day? I'm pretty sure they would've asked how the W was doing anyway, so it was bound to come up...


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Originally Posted By: Miman2

Should I just have said hello asked how they were doing and gone about my day? I'm pretty sure they would've asked how the W was doing anyway, so it was bound to come up...

I think the less said the better.

One of my daughters cousins just found out that I was divorced (3 years ago) bomb drop almost 6 years ago.

It really doesnt make that much difference once you are detached enough.


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I suppose so. Now I'm sitting here thinking they're going exhibit pursuit behavior for me by trying to reach out to the W, seeing how she's doing, and probably mentioning they ran into me.


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"Should I just have said hello asked how they were doing and gone about my day?"

Yes.

"I'm pretty sure they would've asked how the W was doing anyway, so it was bound to come up..."

Really? I didn't know you could predict the future. Let it go. YOU WANTED to tell them. Trust me, we all do that in the beginning. Misery loves company. You essentially wanted others to join your pity party. It'll make you feel a little better at that moment, but then you get depressed again. Bottom line is that it doesn't change anything in your sitch.

"Now I'm sitting here thinking they're going exhibit pursuit behavior for me by trying to reach out to the W, seeing how she's doing, and probably mentioning they ran into me."

Again, mindreading. AND, that's what you want to happen. Even more control on your part. Manipulating others to hopefully do what you want.


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Hello Miman2,

Hang in there! I highly suggest taking MrBond's advice.

He is one of the best on this forum.

Take care of yourself.

Bob


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
M:14 yrs
T:15 yrs
No children together--3 each from previous marriages
Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
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Thanks Bob and MrBond.

Journaling a bit:

GAL:
Friday night was a quiet night for me. Laundry and Netflix Daredevil mini-marathon.

Saturday was a blast. Went to the Japanese meetup again. There's a woman there who divorced her husband last year. She's been really friendly to me, I think shes trying to set an example of how things will be better eventually. Her sitch was REALLY bad, and she came through it really well.

After the Japanese meetup up I headed to one of the local comic/gaming shops, turned out Saturday was international board gaming day. So there was a huge group of people playing all sorts of games. I think I wound up losing something like 5 hours there socializing and gaming.

That place shut down their activities pretty early. I found another place across town that was going to go until midnight but I thought better of it and headed home to feed the cats, myself, and continue my mini-marathon.

PMA:
Overall PMA is decent I think. I'm not crying over missing the W or anything all that much anymore, maybe once every other day or so.

I mostly feel upset and angry at myself for being stupid enough to allow us to get to this point, I can't yet forgive myself. At church today the message was about a woman who held on to her anger over her ex-H for 10 years and how it was like "holding a smoldering ember in her hand". By not letting go she has only harmed herself. The message continued to say how one should not only forgive others but be mindful to forgive oneself.

I've been listening to this one song, almost nonstop, every chance I get, called "Man of Sorrows". It's a religious song that mentions being forgiven and every time I hear it, it brings me to tears. I think it's because I don't have mine or my W's forgiveness. I know there's not a whole lot I can do about her's. The fact that I can't seem to forgive myself is another sign that I'm still too attached/codependent to her. It's another form of me seeking her approval.

There is one other thing that is starting to get to me. I find that I'm starting to feel angry at my W. Its not about how or what she's doing, but the lack of wanting to reconcile. While my head knows that it's not 100% off the table for good, it's not even being considered right now. I read that "fcuk yes/no" article the other day, while I feel like "fcuk yes" I want to work on things she's said "fcuk no".

So there's this anger that seems to be brewing inside of me. Even though nothing has been said between us since Thursday before last. I start to wonder how people who went YEARS before things started turning around made it without getting to that point of anger where, when their spouse wanted to work on things they didn't say "forget it, it's been too long"

I love my W and still would love to reconcile with her. I worry that this anger is a poison that will eat away at that. I suppose the answer is to GAL more so I don't have the time to let this pop into my head...

I ordered those books the other day. NMMNG, Models and CNM. They should be here Tuesday I believe.


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Hi Miman2,

You're welcome. This part really caught my eye from your last post. I have wondered the exact same thing, so please know that you are not alone.

So there's this anger that seems to be brewing inside of me. Even though nothing has been said between us since Thursday before last. I start to wonder how people who went YEARS before things started turning around made it without getting to that point of anger where, when their spouse wanted to work on things they didn't say "forget it, it's been too long"

Believe me, I undertand feeling angry and you have every right to be. I think you are going to have to find a way to look at things thru your W's eyes a little more. Like my W, her thoughts are probably very distorted, but to her that is her reality. That might help alleviate some of the anger you are feeling.

Am I making any sense? I hope so!

Bob


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
M:14 yrs
T:15 yrs
No children together--3 each from previous marriages
Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14
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That does make a bit of sense Bob, but I think that's where I have a bit of a dilemma.

If I try to look at things from my W's perspective too much, I sympathize with her and cannot forgive myself.
I feel she is the victim and I cannot forgive myself for it.

If I don't look at things from her perspective enough, not only do I grow angry because of her lack of willingness to reconcile, but I start feeling like there was nothing wrong with me in the first place. Which can lead to a slacking off in changes.
I feel like I am the victim and I become angry because of it.

I guess the truth of the matter is we both had our parts we played in getting us to this point.
Unfortunately, neither of us had the foresight to actually do anything productive about it.

Is it enough then to know we're both at fault?
Does this allow me to rationalize both the anger and the guilt I feel?


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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Tough morning this morning.

I was dumb enough to check my Facebook before bed last night. W hadn't been on in 5 days, rarely posts anything, and had never posted anything even remotely related to the sitch.

Last night she posts some quote from Steve Jobs about how life is too short to live someone else's life and not do what you really want to do. :-/

Friends and the OC are "liking" it. I keep trying to read what the meaning behind it may be. Last night my thoughts were "this is how she feels and she wants out", this morning I'm trying to convince myself that "she's trying to convince herself that this is how she feels". I know its pointless to mind read. If idle hands are the devil's workshop then idle minds must be his playground.

Either way I unfollowed her posts.

Listening to Christian radio to try and help reestablish some strength.
There was a phrase said that I'm trying to use as my mantra right now:
"God, I know you are fighting my battles for me right now."

Maybe that's how I can get through this without building up too much anger and guilt...


Me:33 W:34
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D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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Good on you for unfollowing her posts. It did wonders for me.


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If it upsets you so much to see her posts and you can't resist checking, you should either unfriend her or block her news feed.


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Miman, I don't use FB, but I see a lot of hurt on these boards caused by looking at WAS FB info. You don't need it, and it's good you took steps to unfollow already. As for what you read - who knows why your W posted that....best not to wonder my friend.

((Miman))


T 13 M 7
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SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

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Thanks everyone and thanks for the hugs Toots.

Like I said she rarely posts and when she did recently it was never about the sitch.
Checking in on FB was a reassurance to me because I could check and it said we were still married.

Journalling:

I have 2 interviews for 2 separate positions coming up.
Both are in completely different states.
I'll actually be flown out next month for one, the other one is still at the phone interview stage.
It seems to me that I should be excited about these opportunities opening up.
But I have this growing anxiety about making plans that seem so final in moving on without the W.
I know that she's stated that is what her plan is at the moment, moving in August for her new position without me.
I know I need a new job.
The contract on this one was extended from August 2015 until midsummer 2016.
Something more permanent is the ultimate goal.

I haven't pushed our R or D one way or another with the W since I started trying to DB.
Having these opportunities open before me scare the hell out of me.
Because it seems like I'm the one taking the next step towards D.
That is something I did not want to do.

The alternative would be to not move on, to stay in my current position and wait.
Wait for my prayers to be answered. Wait for things to start to turn around.
Alternatively, I might be just waiting for her to move on without me.
Because I am still willing to work on things no matter what.
I don't want to be the one who gave up.
That is something I don't want to do.

Then the "strategic" thinking starts kicking in.
The thinking that says that maybe by being proactive on physically moving on/away it will initiate a change in my W.
But that would be placing expectations on her and/or probably trying to control her in some way.
By doing something specifically to elicit a response.
Again these are things I don't want to do.

So I feel like the only thing I can do is go back to taking one day at a time.
Taking small steps forward for myself, looking after my future for myself.


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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Just remember that even if you move away, there is always a chance. What will benefit you in the long run and "potentially" wife?


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Yeah, there is still a chance after we move.

In the long run a stable job will benefit me. The wife already has her stable job.
Unfortunately the job market seems to be pulling us in opposite directions regardless of the current sitch.

4 months ago the plan was I was going to try to take a job in her company doing something there until we got to FL together.
Then I could look for a more permanent position while still contributing.

If we were to sit down and try to think about who is more "portable" it would have to be the W.
We happened to stay in the area after school because her license was based here in this state.

So instead of me looking for other positions out of state I limited my search to local positions.
I was more than glad to do this because, even in grad school, I prioritized her and us before my career.

Assuming I wind up taking a job and moving before she does, how do I best break it to her?
Do I just skip town and send her a note afterwards?? Seems a bit vindictive.
If the roles were reversed I think I would like a heads up before she left. Maybe.
Maybe, it would be easier on me if she didn't say anything until afterwards. I don't know.


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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"Do I just skip town and send her a note afterwards?? Seems a bit vindictive. "

Why is it vindictive? She's the one who hasn't told you what's been going on. You can extend a courtesy and tell her that you're leaving and then stop communications. Show her you've moved on.


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Ignorance, yet knowledge.
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I dunno. I started readying NMMNG last night.
I guess maybe the "nice guy" in me thinks I'll be liked better if I give a heads up that I'm leaving before I actually do.

You're right though, I don't really owe her any explanation of anything I'm doing. Although if I were to do that the question then becomes what I do with all her stuff she didn't take with her? Large Goodwill donation? Box it up and leave it in the apartment?

Again the "nice guy" in me says I should extend a courtesy, tell her I'm leaving, and ask if she would like to come get the rest of her stuff.


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
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Thank you for this thread! I learned a lot about how to deal with future "dinners" with W. I'll have a better idea of how to prepare myself and deal with what happens.


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M: 41 W: 32
D 4, S 6
ILYBINILWY 2/10/15
2/14/15-2/22/15 Left home
4/5/15 Suspect A, Initiated Sandi's advice from WW thread
4/19/15 W asked for D
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Hopefully my example helps SadDood, I know I didn't do a lot of things right.

I was thinking about the W this morning. Having another one of my mental conversations with her. Trying to think about how things may play out should we enter the D phase.

I think I mentioned the one time I was at church praying, asking to let my W come back home. It was about that time that I was contemplating changing the locks. While I was praying this voice from the back of my mind said "If you change the locks, she can't come home."

So in the shower this morning thinking about the W and the voice comes back and says "W was never the type to reach out to anyone." Which is 100% true. She would often complain about her sisters and her nephew who she grew up with and is more like a brother to her than anything would never call her. I would suggest that the phone goes both ways but she would come up with some excuse that she didn't want to bother anyone, so she wouldn't reach out even though she might have really wanted to.

So after my shower I'm continuing my mental talk with her, discussing finances, hearing her say things like "how could you do this to me", answering with "you did this to yourself, you walked away from contracts that hold you financially responsible..."

In the middle of my mental conversation with her, I feel like I'm getting angry and having an arguement with her and then I hear my phone get a text.

It was her.

She asked about a password for a login that she (1)used last month and (2)is one of my common passwords that she is VERY familiar with. I tell her I have to look it up and to hold on a bit. I find it and text the password back and my first reaction is to leave it at that.

Then I remember that voice saying she doesn't reach out, so I ask how she's been doing. She replies with a "Thanks!", that she's doing ok and that she's out of town for work for the week. In an area of the state everyone agrees is one of the prettiest places to visit but we never did.

She quickly followed up by asking how me and the cats are.

I had asked if it was still cold there, followed by how I'm doing good and some of the weird/cute behaviors the cats have been showing.

At this time I headed to work. So I didn't get the next text until 30 mins. had passed.

She told me that its nice there but still patches of snow here and there.

I ventured to ask what one of the famous landmarks in getting to where she is was like. She said it wasn't that big or scary. I mentioned how everyone makes it out to seem that way...

And that's where it stands. Because I know she was the type to never reach out, I want to ask her if she's still willing to have lunch with me. I can rationalize that it's not actually asking her to lunch, but just asking her if she's still willing, and maybe it'll open the door to her actually asking for a day to have lunch together.

I say was because the common knowledge around here is the WAS is different than the person we're used dealing with. I wonder though, has she changed enough to break through that wall she's had up most of her life, I doubt it.

She seems to check in almost every 2 weeks. She should know that password like the back of her hand. She used it last month. It feels like it's an excuse to reach out to me. Last time it was a client died and she didn't want to leave things unsaid, last two times before that she wondered how the cats were doing. She seems willing to casually chat. Our brief exchange seemed friendly enough.


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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You handled it well. Next time tell her that you're out and you'll have to get back to her later. Show her that you have a life.


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Ignorance, yet knowledge.
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Miman2

I also hear answers to my questions when I pray, it started within the last 2-3 months or so when I found God in my life. The person I was before DB would have been very skeptical against that type of thing and while I have faith in it now I cant fully explain it. I don't always hear the answer I want, but they are all pretty consistent even when I'm experiencing different/difficult emotions.

I also play out conversations all the time aswell. Could be with W, IC, others, but it happens all the time. However, I have a habit of having the conversation out loud (when alone) instead of silently in my head. I wonder when that will cause me issues...


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Thanks MrBond and Fogg.

So do you find the answers that come to you to be true Fogg?

I think I've heard it 3 times so far and each time they have made total sense. Although this time it's REALLY tempting me to try and reach out to the W to see if she wants to get lunch together. :-/

Just letting some thoughts out here...

It's always bittersweet when I do hear from her.
I always feel like I was just getting to the place where being S didn't hurt quite as bad, and then she pops up. After that it's a huge backslide in the PMA.

Felt really alone last night and this morning. NMMNG mentioned something about getting to where you're okay with being alone. I didn't date much when I was younger. I went out once or twice with a couple of girls but never anything long term, never anything serious. The W was the first.

Being alone is frightening, I don't want it to be my new normal. I don't want to end up alone forever.

I know I shouldn't need to have someone around to be happy. To be content.

There are times where I'm okay being alone, but it's just that. Just okay. Not frightened, not panicked, not really happy or ecstatic. Just okay.

Maybe it's just that I'm still in the middle of the sitch. Maybe I would feel happier being alone if I wasn't in the present sitch.

How does one build a self-esteem so large that they are happy no matter what?

It seems to me that in order to get to that point you have to adhere to a "let go and let God" type of mentality. You have no control over anything other than yourself, so don't worry, be happy. As long as you're happy with yourself, making sure your needs are met, and looking out for yourself you can be happy?

I suppose my views of relationships has been wrong for a very long time. The W and I would see couples who seemed to barely want to be around each other, compared to us. They seemed to share only 1 or 2 interests, and they seemed to be perfectly happy not spending time together. To us that seemed sad and we felt that maybe they weren't meant for each other.

After reading though a lot of material on relationships it seems that's the healthiest of relationships. You like the person, you like being around the person occasionally, but you're perfectly happy either way, with or without them. You also have to be detached, you don't control them, you don't save them. You listen to them when they have a problem, and validate their feelings, but you don't solve their problems.

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head completely around all that. I get the part where you don't allow your happiness or your self-worth to be defined by someone else. But that kind of relationship just seems so... distant and uncaring to me.

It sounds like you just tolerate someone enough that if they're having a bad time you're there to lend an caring ear. It doesn't sound much different than what I would consider just a friend.

And if that's how I'm supposed to interact in a relationship how am I supposed treat a friend then? I would say friends are a layer removed from someone I'm in a relationship with.

Is the only difference between a friend and someone you're in a relationship with intimacy?

There has to be something more than that...


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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Originally Posted By: Miman2
Thanks MrBond and Fogg.

So do you find the answers that come to you to be true Fogg?

Verdict on that is still out, and I may never know. Most of questions/prayers before were asking about W but it does help me get through the day.

Will I be OK? "Yes"

Is she going to come back to me one day? "yes, but only IF she can work out her own problems, this is something she has to do for herself".

Why is this happening, "You both needed this to change".

What should I do? "Keep moving forward and work on yourself"

Does she love me still? "She will always love you in some deep place in her heart, but may never show it again"

More recently I realized I was asking the wrong questions and went to...

Will I take her back IF she comes back? "NO, not at first, might not at all" This one bothers me the most.

Again, I can be completely calm and don't mind my M being done for now and I get the same answers as when I'm panicking and want her back more than ever.


I think I've heard it 3 times so far and each time they have made total sense. Although this time it's REALLY tempting me to try and reach out to the W to see if she wants to get lunch together. :-/

Just letting some thoughts out here...

It's always bittersweet when I do hear from her.
I always feel like I was just getting to the place where being S didn't hurt quite as bad, and then she pops up. After that it's a huge backslide in the PMA.

Felt really alone last night and this morning. NMMNG mentioned something about getting to where you're okay with being alone. I didn't date much when I was younger. I went out once or twice with a couple of girls but never anything long term, never anything serious. The W was the first.

Same

Being alone is frightening, I don't want it to be my new normal. I don't want to end up alone forever.

I have the same fear, my father is basically alone right now and it terrifies me to end up like him. He keeps so much bitterness from my mother when they were together and his other marriage that failed several years back. More nice guy issues I need to deal with.

I know I shouldn't need to have someone around to be happy. To be content.

There are times where I'm okay being alone, but it's just that. Just okay. Not frightened, not panicked, not really happy or ecstatic. Just okay.

Maybe it's just that I'm still in the middle of the sitch. Maybe I would feel happier being alone if I wasn't in the present sitch.

How does one build a self-esteem so large that they are happy no matter what?

It seems to me that in order to get to that point you have to adhere to a "let go and let God" type of mentality. You have no control over anything other than yourself, so don't worry, be happy. As long as you're happy with yourself, making sure your needs are met, and looking out for yourself you can be happy?

Maybe, time will tell for all of us. Its a learning experience, something we need to get to. I keep getting told I need to be happy with myself also and I hear it, but at times I don't know what that even means. For me still living in the same home I cant experience much of that independence yet. I will say it does excite me at times. Me and W have been together since high school and I had no relationships before then. It feels like Ive never had a chance to be free, so for me maybe this is an experience I need. Think of it as God giving you some opportunity to do something you don't even know about yet.

I suppose my views of relationships has been wrong for a very long time. The W and I would see couples who seemed to barely want to be around each other, compared to us. They seemed to share only 1 or 2 interests, and they seemed to be perfectly happy not spending time together. To us that seemed sad and we felt that maybe they weren't meant for each other.

After reading though a lot of material on relationships it seems that's the healthiest of relationships. You like the person, you like being around the person occasionally, but you're perfectly happy either way, with or without them. You also have to be detached, you don't control them, you don't save them. You listen to them when they have a problem, and validate their feelings, but you don't solve their problems.

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head completely around all that. I get the part where you don't allow your happiness or your self-worth to be defined by someone else. But that kind of relationship just seems so... distant and uncaring to me.

Same. Maybe the relationship we have with ourselves really is more important, but we have ignore it so much we don't even know what it is? Maybe when we discover that relationship and inner happiness things will become clearer. I'm trying to pursue this but it does confuses me also.

It sounds like you just tolerate someone enough that if they're having a bad time you're there to lend an caring ear. It doesn't sound much different than what I would consider just a friend.

And if that's how I'm supposed to interact in a relationship how am I supposed treat a friend then? I would say friends are a layer removed from someone I'm in a relationship with.

Is the only difference between a friend and someone you're in a relationship with intimacy?

There has to be something more than that...




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Journaling:

Bit of a tough GAL day today. Started the morning feeling a bit down/depressed. Barely got myself up to go work out this morning.

Went out to the Japanese meetup group. For the first time since I started going I met some new people and didn't talk about my sitch with them. I don't know if it made my day any easier or harder. On the one hand we were talking a lot about various things, on the other hand the sitch was right there on the tip of my tongue the entire time, spinning around in my head. It was like it was taunting me, just wanting to be blurted out.

Not a whole lot to report after that. Went walking downtown a bit. Looked at a couple of shops. Went looking for a new laptop for work, got a haircut and came home.

I suppose I have more reading to do. I've been reading through the NMMNG and for every idea/comment that I feel like I can get on board with, I find at least one other I don't. I'll probably read codependent no more next and then move on to models.


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"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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So there was a question posed on another thread about why a LBS would want a WAS/WW back.

The first thought that came to my mind was "because I love her".

Then I had to step back and really think about it.
Yes, I am upset at her for walking away.
Yes, I'm angry that she doesn't want to work on things and instead just walked away from her problems.
Yes, I'm angry that she went on vacation with the OC and still continues to see them.
Yes, I'm upset that she doesn't seem to want to handle her fair share of the debt we have.

Maybe it's silly but this is how I feel about her:
Google Image Search: "Love is caring for each other even when you're angry"

Through it all I love her and can forgive and move past all of this. I still care about her. I wish only the best for her and her well being. I worry about her. I know I can't fix her or rescue her. But I still want us to be each other's life companions. Kids or no, she's the one I see a future with. One of our first dates we drew a picture of our "dream house" in the mountains, on a lake, surrounded by animals. Maybe the reality of the picture has changed but when I think of the future I still see her in it.

That doesn't mean I can't find or won't find someone else to build a future with. But she's the one that I feel safe with. That no matter what, any and everything else that pops up in life will be okay as long we have each other. We've made it this far overcoming obstacles together.

Just before I finished graduate school the SIL and BIL came to visit, and one of the things they said was they were so incredibly proud of how we made it. We moved more than 1500 miles from home and survived on our own for (at the time) 6 years without any family and initially no friends around. No car, less than $2k between the two of us, living off a graduate student stipend, more than half of which went directly to rent. Not only did the W finish her undergrad and grad degrees before I finished, she even landed a really good full time job, right out of school.

We went from having nothing of our own to having a life and everything that comes with it (BILLS!?! >.<) but we made it. Without mommy and daddy around to run to should something bad happen. Sure, we had our bouts of bad luck, thankfully we had friends around to help us when we really needed it.

The first car we had was hit 2 weeks before Christmas our second year here. Most people had gone home for the holidays, thankfully we had 1 friend still in town that helped us out.

Unfortunately, this time the obstacles we're ourselves and neither one of us had the foresight to do anything productive about it.

Yes there are things we need to work out. Yes right now our R is a mess. But when I lay my head down for sleep and I think about my W, I still love her.
I'm more than willing to go through any and everything I can to get us back to where we could tackle anything.
Unfortunately for me, she's not at that point. I don't know if she ever was or will be.

Is this reason enough to want her back? Maybe not.
But it's reason enough for me... because deep down we each still care about each other.

That's part of the reason I've been asking what exactly a "healthy" relationship feels like. I can read about how to have a healthy relationship but it feels wrong and distant. I think it was codependent no more that mentioned something about something feeling wrong/uncomfortable is okay because it signifies change.

Maybe the S is what a healthy relationship should feel like, without the pain of being separated or being in the sitch. I care for her, I want the best for her, but there's nothing I can do to or for her, maybe that's why we're supposed to focus on making ourselves happy because that's what we were supposed to be doing in a relationship. The only difference would be the other person would be around, we would be speaking our love languages to each other, and supporting each other...

Anyone have any thoughts on this?


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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My thoughts are that you're still thinking too much about your W. Regardless of what you believe true love to mean, etc. She's still gone. Turn that introspection back onto yourself and your values and what you are going to do to continue to grow.


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Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
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She just called. She's on her way to the apt. to pick up some more stuff. What do I do? Be busy, don't say much to her. Work on my own project. Don't follow her around. Do I help her with stuff or no?


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If you have that many questions on what to do, your best bet would be to not be there when she comes over.


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We talked. She said she wished I would've talked to her sooner.


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"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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Can't wait to have more details. Sometimes, they just want to be reassured that you're still Plan B. I keep repeating it to me, so that I don't blurt out to WW that I still want her back. Also, it's part of the script to say "I was coming back but now you've ruined it!" They know it's the most hurtful thing they can tell us. I've seen it a few times around these boards already. Anyway, report!


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This one's going to be a long one... buckle up.

When she got there she didn't let her self in.
She later said she thought that would've been rude.
She buzzed the building door and knocked on the front door.
I opened it and she said "Hi, were you busy?"
I told her not really and went back to working on my computer and new laptop.

She stopped to pet one cat and then asked if she could use the bathroom.
I said sure.
After she got out she stood at the door of the office, where I was setting up my new laptop.
She stood there for a second like she was expecting me to say something.
I told her the second cat was behind me and she went and pet that one for a while.
She asked about the new laptop and I told her a little about it.

She asked if she could take a sewing machine I got for her a while back.
She had never even taken it out of the box amazon shipped it in. I asked her if she planned on doing much sewing and she said she had "lots of free time". I told her sure and she opened the closet it was in. She mentioned that she noticed that I cleaned up the closet and she was surprised that her stuff wasn't scattered all about. I asked her why would it be. She said she didn't know.

After that she went and packed up some clothes and shoes. It took ALL my self control to not be in there keeping an eye on her. She started piling items in the living room. I asked her if she took all the luggage with her and she said no. That the others should still be around. She then asked if she could take the movies she had before we got together with her.

This is when I lost my patience.

I told her no. She looked at me incredulously and reiterated that she intended to take the ones she owned before we even met. Again I told her no, because she left them behind. That she's the one who left and didn't bother with any thing when she did. I told her besides, what are you going to watch them on?

I asked her about some video games that I noticed missing. Asking why she would take them when she has nothing to play them on. She said she took them over to the OC's house so she could play with their kids. I replied with a question of how she's enjoying being a step-mom, she said she wasn't, then I asked "second mom?", she ignored that. I told her if she really wanted to take some movies she should but there were some I wanted to watch. She told me those were mine anyway. She started packing them before stopping and putting them back saying something about "yeah what am I even going to watch these on".

She mentioned a painting she won at a work function "with her own money" that she wanted to take and proceeded back to the bedroom to take it down from over my bed. I reminded her it was her work who bought the ticket for her and everyone in attendance that evening. She said I didn't even like it, I told her I did. I reminded her that she took two empty frames (that were a gift from the OC to us) and asked her were my frame was. She said they were hers, I told her then she could fill those with her own artwork. She put the painting she took down back.

Walking back to the living room I asked if she really needed to take the sewing machine. She decided against it.

The next part is a bit of a blur.
I should've written it down before I went to bed last night.
Some how we got to talking.
She noticed that I had lost more weight.
I told her yeah I've been working on myself.
She asked like what, what was I doing. She asked if I was going to therapy.
I said yes. She asked what I was working on in therapy, if I was working on my anger issues. I said yes. She asked what else. I told her codependency. She stated it was easy to work on that without her around. I told her not really because the IC didn't see it that way. She pegged him as a psychoanalyst (like I mentioned she's in the biz).

I told her that I'm not angry at her or anyone, that I forgive her and hope she can forgive me. She said she didn't even know what I meant by forgiveness. I told her the religious sense of the word. Where not only have I forgiven, I've wiped the slate clean and have forgotten anything has even happened.

She then mentioned she thought I was still angry, because I didn't want her taking certain stuff. I told her I was not angry but upset and confused. I was confused because she took stuff that I gave to her and didn't understand why she did if she was so angry and hated me. She said she didn't hate me. I told her if she really wanted to take stuff she could.

At one point she said that she hoped we could be friends, I told her I didn't want to be her friend. She laughed and said I was friends with my other ex-girlfriends. I told her I wanted to be her husband. She said that I still was, that she hadn't filed yet. I told her I noticed. She asked how I would feel if she did file. I told her I wouldn't like it but I would be okay in the end.

We talked more but eventually she asked if I could help her out to her car with the stuff so I did. By the car she was asking again why I haven't been talking to her. I told her it was because this is what she wanted. She wanted me out and wanted space so that's what I was giving her. I told her that I wanted to invite her over for dinner but I didn't want to invade her space. She told me I could call her, I told her when I was doing that she would ignore my calls and texts. She mentioned she hadn't eaten dinner yet, I told her she could come in and have some food. I mentioned there was food I didn't want and she could have. She asked if she could have a wine opener. I told her sure.

We went back into the apartment and I was handing her food, she was claiming things around the kitchen. The rice cooker I gave her as a gift one of the first Christmases we were together. A food processor her mom reluctantly gave her. She kept mentioning that I didn't want to give her the things but I told her she could but it still just puzzled me how could she want things that reminded her of me if she hated me.

She said she didn't hate me, that we were friends. That she loved me once but not anymore. She mentioned that she was still concerned for me and that she worried about me. She said she still wished I had a great future. But it couldn't be with her.

I told her I understood how she could feel that way. I told her I know she's still hurt and angry and can't forgive me. I told her that for a long time we weren't communicating together. I told her that NOW I finally understood what she was trying to say to me for a long time. (She made some remark about that being sad.)

I told her that we weren't speaking each other's love languages. I mentioned what they were and she asked what I thought hers was. I told her and she said I was right, and she guessed mine. She then said that meant we weren't meant for each other. I told her finding someone who spoke your love language and who you were compatible with was going to be hard, that you needed to learn to speak the other person's love language. I told her for years we had been speaking our own love language to the other person but neither of us heard it. It was a huge miscommunication. She seemed to agree.

At one point I think I asked her if I could at least know where her apartment was. She changed the subject. I told her I was worried about her safety. I reminded her that I had offered her this apartment and that I was going to pay my half of the rent if she had stayed there. She said she didn't feel safe there because I was so mad. She mentioned that when she left the called a friend of hers and that friend didn't even seem to care that she didn't have a place to stay. Only asking "do you have a place to stay" the W said "I guess I'll stay at a hotel" and her friend replied with "ah okay" instead of offering her a place to stay.

Some of this next part might be a little out of order...

Eventually we took the second trip back out to the car. But it was odd, she was talking about work. Like how we used to before the BD. I was being really supportive. She gave me some extra cloth bags to carry groceries. I think I asked her if she wanted to have lunch still, she said yeah to just call her. I told her I couldn't do that because she's the one who ignored my calls before. She threw out a day and I said I couldn't that day. She said she wanted me to make a day because the last time she tried to ask me to dinner I was busy.

I told her yeah I need some advance notice. That I'm out doing things for myself, I told her I was auditioning for a improv comedy troupe the weekend. She was excited about that. She asked me if I was seeing anyone again. I told her no. She asked what I was doing that Wednesday then asking if I was out playing Magic the gathering or D&D. I told her no. She seemed doubtful. I told her it was a board game night.

As she got into her car I asked her what she wanted me to do. She said she didn't know. I asked if she wanted me to file, she asked "why because it costs a lot of money?". I said no and quoted the amount I knew. She started saying she looked into it and couldn't afford the money to have the uncontested paperwork drawn up. I told her I don't think I could do an uncontested divorce.

She brought up the fact that I said I would be okay if she filed. I said emotionally yes I would be okay after the fact, but I would contest it. She mentioned we'd need lawyers and I said yeah we would. She said she couldn't afford a lawyer. I shrugged. She said something along the lines of "something else to put on the credit card."

I brought up the fact that I knew she was buying the OC stuff, she denied it. I told her the "we both know you're lying, please stop." She claimed she "didn't remember buying them anything" and asked why was I looking at her credit card. I told her I couldn't even if I wanted to but she's going around saying she has no money but she spending money on them. She insisted she wasn't.

I told her how as the "new me" I intend to take what she says at face value. That I'm not going to lie to her and I didn't want her to lie to me. That when she told me last time that we could never be together last time my IC mentioned that that would've been really hard for her to say and I had to believe it. I told her (because my IC said I should) that I'm still "100% willing to work on us" she said she wished I would've said all of this long ago. She said we could have dinner and that she would call me to set up a day. I asked her to text me when she got home so I know she's safe. She said okay.

She did. I told her thanks for texting and have a good night. She replied with "Good night!"


Hmm... that most of what I can remember right now. I have to take off for IC now. I'll try to update if I remember anything else.


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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You still haven't worked on your control issues have you?

"I told her no. She looked at me incredulously and reiterated that she intended to take the ones she owned before we even met. Again I told her no, because she left them behind. That she's the one who left and didn't bother with any thing when she did. I told her besides, what are you going to watch them on? "

Things like this was absolutely childish. If they were hers, they're hers. You really have no right to ask how she was going to view them. You don't own her. She's not a slave or a child that needs to seek your approval.

This is what got you here in the first place and it seems like that problem isn't going away in you.


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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
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Originally Posted By: Miman2
This is when I lost my patience.

I told her no. She looked at me incredulously and reiterated that she intended to take the ones she owned before we even met. Again I told her no, because she left them behind. That she's the one who left and didn't bother with any thing when she did. I told her besides, what are you going to watch them on?


But wait! There's more!!!!

Originally Posted By: Miman2
I told her if she really wanted to take some movies she should but there were some I wanted to watch. She told me those were mine anyway. She started packing them before stopping and putting them back saying something about "yeah what am I even going to watch these on".


I admit I was (initially) controlling.
I wasn't going to allow myself to be walked all over by having her come in and take whatever she wanted. A stance needed to be made and that's where I had to start to draw a line.

In the end she did wind up taking several things that I would've liked to keep for myself.

In the end I didn't look out for my own needs first.
Not for the sake of not being controlling, but because in a relationship that's what you do.
You give what you can, when you can.

I didn't need to offer her the food I was just going to wind up throwing away. But I knew she needed it more than I did and so I did.

No mention of that though, huh?


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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Silly edit times...

This is what I wanted to say...

I admit I was (initially) controlling.

What else am I supposed to do?
Allow myself to be walked all over by having her come in and take whatever she wanted when she's the one who left!!!!

She's lied and hid things she's taken from the house AND she's taken some of them over to the OCs house!!!!!!!!

Am I supposed to become some victim?

Roll over and say "sure honey take what ever the fcuk you want and give it all to fcukhed1 and fcukhed2 because I can't stop you from doing and taking things in the house that you left behind and I'm now responsible for."

She abandoned ship!!!
She had every chance to take what she wanted when she first left!!!

A stance needed to be made and that is just where I happen to start to draw a line. Maybe it's not the best of places but it's a start.

I don't appreciate you calling it childish either...

Childish is walking away from a situation without talking about it or working it out.

In the end she did wind up taking several things that I would've liked to keep for myself.

In the end I didn't look out for my own needs first.
Not for the sake of not being controlling, but because in a relationship that's what you do.
You give what you can, when you can.

I didn't need to offer her the food I was just going to wind up throwing away.
She sounded like she needed it more than I did.
So I did offer it to her and she gladly took it.

Funny how there's no mention of any of that though, huh?

I guess all things considered if the only thing I did wrong was (initially) be hesitant when she wanted to take some DVDs then I was doing okay.


Me:33 W:34
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D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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"I wasn't going to allow myself to be walked all over by having her come in and take whatever she wanted. A stance needed to be made and that's where I had to start to draw a line."

She wanted to take things that were hers and you didn't let her. How is that drawing a line? It makes you come off as petty.

"In the end she did wind up taking several things that I would've liked to keep for myself."

But you "allowed" her to take them. Still control.

"In the end I didn't look out for my own needs first.
Not for the sake of not being controlling, but because in a relationship that's what you do.
You give what you can, when you can."

Not sure where you showed that.

"I didn't need to offer her the food I was just going to wind up throwing away. But I knew she needed it more than I did and so I did. "
No mention of that though, huh?"

So you're saying that you should be commended for "offering" her your rubbish, is that correct? You were going to throw it away any way (nice adding that in BTW) and you consider that a nice gesture?


M-43 W-40
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Quote:
No mention of that though, huh?

It isn't the "nice" gestures that are going to get you to D. It's the controlling ones.
They don't cancel each other out.

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Originally Posted By: MrBond
So you're saying that you should be commended for "offering" her your rubbish, is that correct? You were going to throw it away any way (nice adding that in BTW) and you consider that a nice gesture?

Exactly how I read it also.

Very condescending, in my opinion.


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So you still have everything in your houses just the way it was when your spouse left???

Just waiting for them to come and get it?

You kept all the food in the fridge for 3 years just waiting for her to come back??

How'd you get it to last that long??

It was going to be thrown away because I had no intention of eating it. It wasn't rubbish.

I could've just as well donated to a food bank.


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D mentioned & S 2/13/15
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Hi. Sorry this is happening to you. I know you feel really bad and are struggling with your sitchs but people on here are trying to advise you and help you with your interactions with your W This is your life , what you decide to do is up to you. My advise would be to listen and learn The vets on this forum have seen It all and most have lived through the pain with different outcomes.

take care Rd

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Thanks rd500.

I admitted I was initially controlling.

To me it seems that in this specific sitch I am:
controlling because I didn't let her take something and
controlling because I did let her take something

So I'm a double winner of the control prize! yay! laugh

What I'm still waiting for is actual advice...
How does one NOT be controlling in this situation.

By not being there? I close my eyes and let whatever happen, right?
But then I'm "letting" her do whatever and so I'm controlling again.


Me:33 W:34
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Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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To me, what was controlling was asking her how she would watch the movies, as a reason not to take them. You can buy a DVD player for 40$ nowadays, probably less. Someone could donate her one, etc. It's ok to keep your stuff, but it's not ok to oversee what she will do with what she takes away. If she owns two legs of a chair, let her take them without question.

Minman2, you know none of us have all the stuff in our houses like when our spouses left. You're not asking an honest question, you're upset and you're not trying to understand. I get it, MrBond especially can be quite harsh -- he was on me as well when I arrived here. You take what you want, but make sure that you make an honest effort to understand first. This is not argument: none of us know each other in real life and the only reason we come here out of our personal time is to help each other out. The main beneficiary is you: take this opportunity to learn and get better at your sitch. No need to get upset at the posters on your thread; it's energy wasted for you at a moment when you need all you have.

Also, be very careful of the covert contracts (NMMNG): if you want something, ask for it. If you give something, do it because you want to, don't expect anything in return.

Maybe take a few hours or days to cool off and reflect, reread the feedback you got. I know none of this is easy. It isn't for any of us.


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"So you still have everything in your houses just the way it was when your spouse left???
Just waiting for them to come and get it?"

Actually for some things, yes.

"You kept all the food in the fridge for 3 years just waiting for her to come back??
How'd you get it to last that long??"

"It was going to be thrown away because I had no intention of eating it. It wasn't rubbish. "

Ummm do you see what you just did there? You were going to throw it away and yet you don't call it rubbish.

"I could've just as well donated to a food bank.""

"But you didn't and you had no intention to do so. Stick to the facts."

Bottom line is that you can debate all you want, but if all of us here interpreted it differently than from what you intended, it was probably something you should learn from. Just saying.

And Mozza is right. I'm a straight shooter when it comes to this stuff. The people who used to keep me on track the same way was sandi and 25yrsmlc. it wasn't until I stopped taking things personally and actually listened to what I "perceived" as their harsh comment, that I began to really change. They pointed out things that I didn't or didn't want to acknowledge.


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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
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Miman,

My H wanted novels he never read, and I let him take them, knowing full well how he tired war and peace around on a beach vacation when we first started dating to impress me. It took up more space in the carry on than anything else and the cover was never cracked.

I kept my thoughts to myself at the time and helped him load his other things.

You lose some battles for the sake of the war, and whatever dignity (anti-pettiness) you may be able to hold onto. If you were firm on your stance earlier about the big picture, doesn't that allow you to be kind in the matters that don't matter? If you want her back, kind and considerate where it doesn't cost you, firm in places that you need to protect your boundaries. Kindness is never weakness, the opposite I think.

Honestly, I was a bit worn out with all the back and forth on the lunch/dinner date you described. She was trying and it seemed you blocked her at every turn out of resentment for old texts that went unreturned?

Your feelings of anger are valid, goodness knows I'm angry and not in a great position to offer advice. But MWD wrote every action moves you closer to goal (which is what for you in next week?)or away, so perhaps an important consideration as you look your next encounter.

On the bright side, she stayed longer than it seems she had to and was pursuing you a bit, no?


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You can't DR your way out of abuse.



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I just got caught up on you Miman, and I have to agree with the others that ARE giving you ADVICE. As Zelda just mentioned, all the emotions you are feeling, and keep in mind that we all have felt them, are valid. That being said...What are you doing to work on them? I mean honestly work on them. I saw you justifying your actions, when it sounds like you were fitting into your old script, only slightly altered.

The thing that is most beneficial to remember is that DB is a twofold path. Obviously we come here because we want to win our spouses back. At the same time, this is about bettering ourselves for now and the future. Think on this. Own this. Remember this.

In your recent interactions, I saw anger and resentment. Half the time it sounded like you were in a battle. How is that attractive? How does that move you forward? Did it work? Or is it a cheeseless tunnel?

I see that you've been trying to do so, and yet you need to find better ways to channel that anger. Replace the anger emptiness with joy. In my sitch I have pushed myself so far into becoming a better father that my child glows when he sees me. I am starting a new job on Monday that will be less stress and gets me back to my roots of helping families directly (I'm in the biz like your wife).

Instead of battling, pick and choose them. Those are boundaries. Read Wonka's boundaries cheat sheet and apply it. What do you really want to save? What is part of the above battles? Where are YOUR non-negotiables? Pick the few that really are boundaries and stick with them.

Finally, since I've ranted much more than I normally do, recognize what moves you forward and what doesn't (reflecting zelda). From what you've written, every time you pull away and don't turn something into a battle, your WW responds in a positive way. Attract her, don't push (yes, the hardest part), and don't lash out.


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First of all I would like to think everyone for their contributions/advice.
I would also like to say that there are differences in how advice is delivered and received.
I believe that to be the most help advice should be constructive.


Originally Posted By: MrBond
Yes I know all of the LL and the His Needs/Her Needs, and practically every M practice and term out there. Been doing this for awhile.


So stop me if you've heard this one...

Originally Posted By: Wikipedia
Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.

The purpose of constructive criticism is to improve the outcome. In collaborative work, this kind of criticism is a valuable tool in raising and maintaining performance standards.

Constructive criticism must always focus on the work rather than the person.
Personality issues must always be avoided.
Constructive criticism is more likely to be embraced if the criticism is timely, clear, specific, detailed and actionable.


There's not much we can do about the timeliness really.
Such is the nature of a forum.
As for the other points...


Not constructive: unclear, not specific, not detailed, not actionable, focusing on personality
Quote:

If you have that many questions on what to do, your best bet would be to not be there when she comes over.

You still haven't worked on your control issues have you? If they were hers, they're hers. You really have no right to ask how she was going to view them. You don't own her. She's not a slave or a child that needs to seek your approval.
This is what got you here in the first place and it seems like that problem isn't going away in you.

Things like this was absolutely childish.

It makes you come off as petty.

Very condescending, in my opinion.

Ummm do you see what you just did there?

But you didn't and you had no intention to do so.




Constructive: clear, specific, detailed, actionable
Quote:

If it upsets you so much to see her posts and you can't resist checking, you should either unfriend her or block her news feed.

My thoughts are that you're still thinking too much about your W. Regardless of what you believe true love to mean, etc. She's still gone. Turn that introspection back onto yourself and your values and what you are going to do to continue to grow.

You handled it well. Next time tell her that you're out and you'll have to get back to her later. Show her that you have a life.

It isn't the "nice" gestures that are going to get you to D. It's the controlling ones.
They don't cancel each other out.

To me, what was controlling was asking her how she would watch the movies, as a reason not to take them. It's ok to keep your stuff, but it's not ok to oversee what she will do with what she takes away. If she owns two legs of a chair, let her take them without question.

all of us here interpreted it differently than from what you intended

If you want her back, [be] kind and considerate where it doesn't cost you, [and] firm in places that you need to protect your boundaries. Kindness is never weakness, the opposite I think.

Your feelings of anger are valid, goodness knows I'm angry and not in a great position to offer advice. But MWD wrote every action moves you closer to goal (which is what for you in next week?)or away, so perhaps an important consideration as you look your next encounter.

On the bright side, she stayed longer than it seems she had to and was pursuing you a bit, no?

all the emotions you are feeling, and keep in mind that we all have felt them, are valid. That being said...What are you doing to work on them?

Instead of battling, pick and choose them. Those are boundaries. Read Wonka's boundaries cheat sheet and apply it. What do you really want to save? What is part of the above battles? Where are YOUR non-negotiables? Pick the few that really are boundaries and stick with them.

Finally, since I've ranted much more than I normally do, recognize what moves you forward and what doesn't (reflecting zelda). From what you've written, every time you pull away and don't turn something into a battle, your WW responds in a positive way. Attract her, don't push (yes, the hardest part), and don't lash out.



So I would like to thank everyone who contributed constructive and elegantly stated advice.
This is the kind of advice that I have been seeking and you have given me plenty to think about.


Originally Posted By: Miman2
I mentioned there was food I didn't want and she could have.

Originally Posted By: MrBond
"I could've just as well donated to a food bank.""

"But you didn't and you had no intention to do so. Stick to the facts."


This was an assumption on your part, and an incorrect one at that.
Since you've been doing this for a while, I take it you know what happens when you assume.

Originally Posted By: MrBond

"You kept all the food in the fridge for 3 years just waiting for her to come back??
How'd you get it to last that long??"

"It was going to be thrown away because I had no intention of eating it. It wasn't rubbish. "

Ummm do you see what you just did there? You were going to throw it away and yet you don't call it rubbish.


I did see what you did there.
You avoided the question.
Yes, it is a legitimate question.
I'm trying to understand the nature of control, so I can change.
So I asked the vets for examples of how not to be in control of a situation like this.

So let me rephrase the question.

Originally Posted By: MrBond

You still haven't worked on your control issues have you?

But you "allowed" her to take them. Still control.

"So you still have everything in your houses just the way it was when your spouse left???
Just waiting for them to come and get it?"

Actually for some things, yes.


How long do I wait before I throw stuff out?
How long did you wait before you threw stuff out?
Did you throw things out or "allow" her come and get stuff?
If you "allowed" her to come get stuff isn't that control?
If you throw things out isn't that a control as well?

Allowing her to take it (controlling the fact that she has it) and throwing it out (controlling the fact that she doesn't have it) are two sides of the same control coin.

Its easy to throw around accusations of control, barking at people to change. Straight shooter or not.

Watch:

Originally Posted By: MrBond
"So you still have everything in your houses just the way it was when your spouse left???
Just waiting for them to come and get it?"

Actually for some things, yes.


"some things huh? That's control! You controlled WHICH things were an option of her to have. Haven't you already worked on changing? You should know better. How do you fail to grasp the concept? You have no right to decide what she can and can't have."

How is that helpful? How is that advice?
All it does is raise the red flag on control issues being present.
There's nothing about what to actually do about them.
Inherently that is not advice!
It's not much more than nagging...
Hmm where did I read somewhere about nagging not being effective... (DR pg. 39)
I mean Teddy said it, right?

“Complaining about a problem without posing a solution is called whining.”
– Teddy Roosevelt

Someone telling the captain of the Titanic "your boat is sinking" is not giving advice...

I don't know.
Maybe I'm WAY off base here, maybe I'm butthurt (urbandictionary it) about the situation.
But maybe, just MAYBE there's a better way to go about actually giving useful advice.

If you don't have any useful advice, that's fine too.
You can leave a commiseration note, or point out places you think I could be misunderstood or misinterpreted, ask questions about places in the conversation you think I should probably reconsider and view from another viewpoint. Any of that works for me!


Anyway I'll step down from my soapbox for a bit so I can let the chit fly my way.

Do your worst.


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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That was an interesting breakdown. One thing stood out though...

You asked... ""So you still have everything in your houses just the way it was when your spouse left??? Just waiting for them to come and get it?"

I answered... "Actually for some things, yes."

And for some reason you responded with ... ""some things huh? That's control! You controlled WHICH things were an option of her to have. "

I did not say that I didn't allow her to have or not to have items from the home. You just asked if I had things in the house still after my spouse left. And I did. She could have taken them if she wanted to. No big deal. No expectations. No control.

And that sums up the problem of that rather large post you just put up. You don't seem to understand what everyone is telling you. You insist on "constructive" criticism when if you would bother to really try to understand what everyone is saying in their own way, it's all constructive. Yet you want to CONTROL the way people talk to you. We are only allowed to talk to you a certain way or in a way that suits your needs as you see fit. Sorry it doesn't work that way.

First off, the advice you are getting is FREE. Some have saved their M's, some have not. But everyone is speaking from their own life experiences. It's freely given and you have the CHOICE to listen or not.

Second, we are all taking time out of our day to post to you. If you haven't noticed the sheer volume of people daily asking for help, you are actually pretty lucky to have the advice that you are given.

You can continue to debate and argue about the kind of advice you're getting on here, but all that does is take away time that you could be using to learn and actually save your M. Some of the best advice I've ever received here were the ones that I disagreed with the most.

Control seems to be a central theme in your sitch. You have a choice to believe it or not, but that's how it looks like from the outside looking in. But again, that's just my OPINION and the OPINIONS of the other posters.


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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Hi. Your life , your choices I have had two vets comment on my sitch in 6 months and Mr bond tells it straight. if you listen, read the books and read others sitch then you have a road to follow to help guide you through this terrible time

You can do it your way and it may work out and your M could last forever Most outcomes result from a system or guide. This forum is such a guide. I personally DB to a point and follow my L/Cs advice and Ithen I TRY to do what works

It's tough Your call whatever you decide ,I wish you well. Take care. Rd

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Thanks rd500. I'm trying to listen and learn the best I can.
That's why I'm writing and asking questions.
I would like to learn what not to do and how to go about thinking about and not doing what I shouldn't be doing...

MrBond...

Wow.... just wow.

First of all:
I'm not even going to waste the time to try to explain to you how you missed the whole point of the one thing that stood out to you. -.-

Second of all: I have admitted I have control problems.

So let's talk about control.
(If that's okay with you, I don't want to control what gets discussed)

Admitting to it and, yes, having people continue to point it out raises questions about control.

Mostly about how to not have control issues.

Can someone control their control or is that too controlling?

"Yet you want to CONTROL the way people talk to you. "

Wow, I didn't know I had that much power over you.
Although this is an assumption on your part again.
You'd have to be pretty obtuse to think I have any delusions of control over anyone here.
I know, I know... you're saying I WANT control.
But that would just be silly. No one can control anyone over the internet.
I may be controlling, but I'm not THAT dumb.
(As a side note, you know just incaseys, anyone can feel free to PM me and I'll send you a routing number you can deposit your paychecks to from now on, FREE of charge.)

If a post on my "OPINION" on how to communicate with others makes you feel like I'm trying to control people then where does that logic stop?

By that logic anyone dispersing information on how to behave in a certain way is controlling.

All these authors of these self-help books are controlling!
They're telling people how they should interact with other people.

That probably got the biggest eye-roll humanly possible.
You're probably thinking:
"You don't seem to understand what everyone is telling you."

And to that I say:

That has my point this entire time!
I know when I've been controlling.
But how do I know when I'm not being controlling?

Is control merely like what Justice Potter Stewart said when he was trying to decide if a certain movie was to be considered obscenity?

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."

Or is there a definite delineating line that makes the difference between being controlling and not controlling"

The closest I've gotten to a hint of a whiff of a thought of an answer has finally been brought to the light of day.

Let me try to rationally think through this before I reveal that hint whiff.
(I've put it in a spoiler tag so you can't peek right away.)

Let's assume for a moment that we can define control purely and simply as consciously or unconsciously making a decision for someone.

We'll ignore enforcement of the decision for now, we'll just assume the decision is final. This assumption implies some power/influence over that person. Without which really makes control kind of impossible but we'll ignore that too. (You know, just in case you still want that routing number.)

Choosing someone's school, lunch/dinner, friends, work, home, items they own, items they don't own, keeping someone's items, throwing someone's items out, any decision made for someone is control and control is bad m'kay.

But what about that Christmas present that you got for your husband/wife.
You know that one they absolutely loved and uses/wears everyday.

The previous statement said that choosing "items they own" is controlling.
But in this instance it doesn't sound like this is control at all.

What about making those decisions for yourself?
Yes, I know there's such a thing as self-control.
But I'm talking about making decisions similar to those listed above just like you would for someone else.
Is that still control or something different?

All of a sudden the definition of control starts to get a little hazy.

So what if the definition of "control" is something closer to the definition of "lying"?

You can google "plato stanford lying-definition" and their Encyclopedia of Philosophy has an excellent run down of the conditions something must meet to be considered a lie. Basically for a something to be considered a lie it must:
1) Be a statement
2) The statement must be untruthful.
3) The statement must be made to another person.
4) The statement must be made with the intention that the other person believes it to be true.

So going back to trying to define control.
Control is:
1) A decision.
2) A decision made for someone else.
3) The decision maker exhibits power/influence over the other person,
4) Because #4 the decision removes autonomy/free-will/choice from that someone else.
5) The decision was made with the intent to remove the autonomy/free-will/choices of another person.

#5 borrows from the definition of a lie AND my hint whiff
After all MrBond, as you said...
Click to reveal..
"She could have taken them if she wanted to. No big deal. No expectations. No control."


The underlined part has #5 written all over it.
While it's easy to accuse someone of being controlling, without that person truly understanding what control is they will never understand why your comment about your W wasn't controlling.

You do understand though, because you have an idea of what it means to be controlling.

Someone can easily be accused of being controlling.
When they are and they don't understand why they're being accused or how they could've prevented being in that (or any) situation where they're being controlling they can get defensive. When they get defensive one response may be to try and explain their situation.

Just like you did by responding to that part that stood out to you.

You responded to my accusations of you being controlling.
Just like I thought you would.
But I don't meet control criteria #3 & #4.
#5 is a bit of a stretch, I can't say for 100% the intent was there.
So does that mean I didn't control you?

You might answer with something like well "you want(ed) to CONTROL" me.

To that I say:
Maybe, but no more than asking a question is controlling someone to answer.
Which again begs the question, is that control?
I got a bit more of what I needed out of it and as far as I can tell you're not worse off because of it.
I do owe you an apology though, because technically I did lie to you.

I said the first point was I wasn't going to explain the point you missed and
"if you would bother to really try to understand" that's exactly what I tried to do.
For the sake of learning and actually saving my M.
smile


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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Please start a new thread


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Milman , wow , I am going to abit into my sitch to try to give you perspective, my W called me controlling ( when she left, not now). Her examples of this were

1. She jogged on our local country roads, that have no footpaths and I asked her to jog around our two acre garden instead for safety. She didn't by the way.

2' W would go for a walk just a it was getting dark , I asked her to go 1/2 hour earlier so she would be finishing her walk before twilight. She didn't by the wa

3. W would go out for the evening and I would ask her what time she would be home and if she would not be home then could she text me and let me know. W did do this

These are a few example of where I thought I was being caring and thoughtful

W thought I was being controlling

Who was right ?

IT DOESNT MATTER! !!!!

W perceived it as controlling and that's all that mattered I should have said it once , voicing my opinion and concerns and left it at that. W is a big girl
And able to make her own choices.

You just spent a long post trying to explain your actions and how you are right, it doesn't matter, if your right , it comes across as controlling and if your wrong it comes across and controlling.

I post a lot on here , just support because i have not being able to restore my M

Please take this as its Iintended , you come across as controlling and that's what you have to work on.

Anyone who posts on your sitch is routing for you Mr bond is abrasive sometimes but his advice is sound

Take care mate Rd

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Miman -

To answer your question above. I believe control issues manifest in more subtle ways. When you are not controlling, you are not trying to control someone's understanding...whether their understanding of you, or a situation. Relentlessly driving home a point is attempting this kind of control.

- trying to control whether someone(s) see you as righteous, correct, your points superior, your logic more sound. I am guilty of this. There was a recommendation to me to check out Rosenberg's giraffe and jackal speech. I came here with jackal mindset and it is any time we are violent in our communication - over insistent and aggressive. No one wins with this. Even if Mr Bond comes back to you and says, oh ok, I can see that...there has been antagonism which ruptures relationships.

Did you engage with your W this way? Imagine that she might have been exhausted, felt stupid, as though you were trying to make her feel inferior...that post is full of sarcasm and put downs. Very demeaning.

You can be right, or you can be happily married. What if you were to apply this principle to all your relationships? You cN be right, or kind. Asserting yourself doesn't have to sacrifice kindness.


Mid 30's
Psych-abusive M with violent tantrums from XH
D 9/15; NC forever on

You can't DR your way out of abuse.



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I second Zelda09, especially the part about wondering if this is how you argued with your W (or anyone else). Even if you think that MrBond was unpleasant or provocative, it does not justify responding in kind or worse. Let him be himself and be the best Miman2 you can be. Try to find a way to learn from the exchange and take it forward. Pick your battles, show curiosity and openness, vulnerability even.

Cadet suggested you start a new thread, it would be a good opportunity to make that change.


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"Second of all: I have admitted I have control problems. "

Admitting and doing something about it are two different things. We are suggesting you do the latter.

Like the others, I'm beginning to wonder if this is how you talked down to your W. You said you talked her into swinging and that she said there were things you asked her to do that she felt uncomfortable to do, but she did it anyway.

I can now see that maybe you debated her to death about why she should do the thing that you wanted her to do. Just my opinion.

Start a new thread and maybe start with a beginner's mind as suggested in DB. That helps.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
"I want to have cats back" 5/4/15
Served D papers 5/8/15
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