Trying to Follow DB & DR (2)

[Mozza]

Remember that you can't convince her with words. She has checked out. You're the past, she's excited about the future. Put yourself in her shoes. She's probably as much interested in the M as you're interested in D. You won't talk her back into the M no more than she will talk you into accepting D tonight. Your plan is to make her reconsider you, in the long run, because she sees your changes and that you're moving on fine without her. This is no small task, but a good "performance" tonight will take you in the right direction. Don't be one of those LBS who come back saying "Sorry, I messed up". Be strong!

[Mozza]

No alcohol! Terrible for your self control and emotions.

[Sherman333]

I told her she could pick the place and how I was thinking of asking her to lunch or dinner. Again she said where ever I wanted.

From an attaction (chemistry) perspective you should be picking the restaurant. Ask for her input like type of food, but you should pick. She even told you with "again she said where ever I wanted".

[Miman2]

I did eventually pick and she agreed to the place.

Sorry for the huge wall of text

So... that probably could've gone better.

I passed her in traffic but we wound up getting there at the same time. We said "hey" and walked into the restaurant together not saying much. We sat down and I noticed she had a different ring on her wedding ring finger. She got up to wash her hands and I texted my parents about what was going on.

When she came back she basically told me one of her clients from work died yesterday and how that got her to thinking about how she shouldn't leave things left unsaid. I tried to validate how she must be feeling because of that and she gave me a funny look.

She started to say she was sorry about ever hurting me and I returned the sentiment. She mentioned that we had been making each other miserable and that we had been growing apart for such a long time. That's when I started to tear up. I told her how I was sorry for ever hurting her, making her cry and breaking her heart. I told her I've been trying to become the person I was before she ever met me, she said I could strive to be the best person I wanted to be, not who I used to be. She mentioned something about how we were best friends but not a good husband and wife. I validated I understood how she could feel that way. I told her again I was sorry and hoped she could forgive me. She said she did.

She asked about my IC. I told her he wanted me to read the book "More than Two: the practical guide to ethical polyamory". She started asking about his name but I wouldn't give it to her. Since she's a therapist too I didn't want her to be able to look him up.

She asked how my mom was doing. We talked about some random stuff. Mostly about the cats, she said something about how they loved me more anyway.

She asked how I was doing and I said I was doing great, I asked how she was doing and she said ok. Later on she said something about how she's glad I'm happy and doing great. (Here's where I probably messed up...) I told her "I never said I was happy." She said "well you're smiling and you're saying you're doing great, you're looking really good, you look like you've lost a lot of weight".

She tried to restore to factory setting her phone and return it to me because she said she couldn't afford to pay it anymore. I told her "lets not make any rash decisions right now". She put the phone away. I mentioned that another student loan went through, she tried to pay me cash but I didn't wind up taking it.

When the check came we pitched in our shares. I told her it was fun, good seeing her and I hope we could do it again sometime. She told me she didn't know what to say. So I said well you then and got my coat and went to leave.

She caught up to me and mumbled something about us both going the same way. She asked if I wanted to get a drink because she felt like we still had a lot of things left unsaid. I told her we could and asked what she wanted to talk about. She didn't really have an answer to that.

She asked why I never called or texted except to ask about money. I told her, first of all I was giving her the space she asked for and that I never asked about the money. She texted me about it in the first place. She said that when she did text that evening I didn't reply so she figured I would reply when she asked about the money. I told her I was out with friends that evening and didn't get her text until I got home.

She asked again why I never called or texted and I told her that when I was calling and texting her in the beginning she said I wasn't giving her the space she asked for. She replied with "that's true". She later said something about me being happy and doing great and she figured I had moved on.

As we walked back to the cars she said something about how it hasn't been that long. I told her it was 7 weeks and next week it would be 2 months since I've seen her. She seemed surprised that it had been that long. She asked if she looked like a stranger to me, I told her no and asked her the same thing. She said yes. I asked if I had lost that much weight jokingly and she said yes again.

This entire time by the cars I was fighting back tears...but I never fully lost it.

We got the cars and continued talking for a bit. She finally broke down and said we could never get back together. I told her I could understand how she could feel that way. Again another funny look. I said that I know I haven't treated her like a good husband should and asked again for her to please forgive me. She said she did but then I told her how it's one thing to say you forgive someone it's another thing to truly forgive and forget the past. She said she wasn't angry anymore. We talked about songs that we had listened to in the past about being angry anymore (Ani Difranco if anyone's interested). I told her about my playlist I made and how at the top of my play list was "Think of me" from Phantom of the Opera. She said something about that being unfair.

I finally had to ask about her ring. I kept imagining she chucked it into the ocean when she went to Cancun. She mentioned that that idea was crazy. She said it was in her wallet. She said she was going to initially mail it back to my parents. But when she took the ring off she stopped being angry. I asked when she took it off and she said she didn't wear it to Cancun.

She asked about me going out with friends. I told her yeah I was going out with friends and asked what about her. She said she didn't have any friends left. I gave her a look and asked about her weekends. She asked if I was seeing anyone and I said nope. She then said that I knew where she was on the weekends. (With the OC) She mentioned something about me tracking her through the phone, I assured her I didn't. She mentioned that she was probably being paranoid. She asked if I still wanted to be friends and that she hoped we could be. I told her I didn't think we stopped being friends. I asked about the OW and if she missed me, she said that wasn't a fair question. I told her the OW had said she loved me once. She eventually told me that the OW did miss me. I told her my IC wanted me to be able to talk to the OW for support (he's very pro-poly). I told her it would be nice to hear from the OW. She asked me about the OM. I told her I missed his friendship. She said he said likewise. I asked if we could ever all hangout some weekend. She said maybe eventually.

She mentioned that she still worried about me, and that she had checked my bank account to check in on me. She returned her bank cards to me, I took them but I also mentioned that I hadn't changed the locks or changed the bank account because she hadn't done anything vindictive. She asked if I thought she did (other than leaving me) I told her no and asked her the same. She also said no. She started complaining again that she couldn't afford a whole lot. That she racked up $4k on her credit card to move into her new apartment, but then also said that I could keep the furniture we had. I asked her about her furniture and she said all she had was a mattress on the floor, no internet, sheets and a pillow. She started to try to return the phone again because, despite only having 3 bills to pay which are WAY less that what I have to pay AND the fact that we make the same amount of money, she couldn't afford to pay it. I told her not to worry about it. She asked if I could cancel her phone line and I told her I would look into it and that in the meantime she could pay for the car insurance and I would pay for the phone bill. (Didn't detach enough there maybe??).

She asked if I ever wanted to call her or text her this entire time, I told her how ever since she left for vacation and she said we could have lunch I had been looking forward to it. I told her that all I've been wanted to do is ask her to lunch, and not to talk about the past or the future but to just have lunch with her. She said that we could do that and she told me I could call her or text her anytime I wanted. I told her she couldn't tell me that, she figured that if she did then I would do it all the time, and said I could email her instead. I asked her what about weekends (because she seems to turn her phone off when she's spending time with the OC). She said I could just email her. I asked what if something happened to one of the cats (one of them is like 15-16 years old at this point), she said she didn't even think of that before I mentioned it. She told me to just call her. (Maybe that was too controlling bringing up the cat.)

I told her I was ashamed of the person I became and how I've been trying to find the person I want to be and asked if she might want to join me at church on Sunday. She broke down crying saying that it was unfair because when she wanted to go to church 2 Christmases ago, I didn't go with her, and when she got back she said she wound up at a Spanish mass and she said I laughed at her. I told her again that I was sorry that I didn't support her. She said no that she didn't think it was a good idea to go with me. She said I didn't support her even though she was really depressed and hurting, and that the only reason she started meds recently for her depression was because I was saying she was miserable to be around. She was on meds as a kid and she said she never wanted to be on them again, but now she can't be off of them. I mentioned that I thought I was depressed as well before she left, she said that she thought my depression came out as anger.

I asked her what she wanted me to do. She didn't really have an answer for that either, but she did say she that I could call her and text her. I told her okay, thanks for dinner and left.

After I got home I texted her to make sure she got home okay (she was saying how she wanted to leave before it got dark because she doesn't like to drive in the dark). She said yes she did and that she had to stop to get gas. I told her "ah okay. thanks again for meeting me for dinner! have a good night". She replied with "I'm glad I did. We can have lunch sometime. Good night"

Part of me wishes that I could tell her about the part of marriage after the honeymoon phase. About where it becomes a choice and how I feel her concern for my well-being and safety is part of that choice of loving someone... she could easily counter with that she chooses not to love me anymore though too.

Anyways that was my evening.

So thoughts???

[Mozza]

Thanks a lot for the detailed recount. I read it all, of course. I was looking forward to it.

Well, that went better than I expected.

Of course, the tearing up is no good. As in: not attractive, not good for R, backsliding, etc. I'm hard on you because you need to get that under control. It's the undoing of many LBH. And you already know that "I never said I was happy" was not a good line. You had played it well up to that point.

Also, I don't get why you didn't accept the phone, etc. When it comes to money, treat her like a business associate. Don't be generous. Don't be mean or stingy either. Just treat her expenses as hers, without emotions.

Another thing is to avoid all pursuing. The text asking her if she got home was a bit too much in my opinion. You don't want to reassure her constantly that you are there. You want her to feel the void, to feel like you're slipping through her fingers. That will force you to leave her unsatisfied with you which I'm sure will be difficult given your profile.

The validation was good. In general, you came across as a changing man and that's very, very good. Especially since those are positive changes from her perspective. That's all you could hope for at this stage and you mostly delivered. I even like when she got upset that you made certain changes after she left. Those are the kind of things that will make her think long and hard in the coming months.

In general, I'm impressed at how much interest she has for you. Many WW don't want anything to do with their LBH. The risk is that you enter the friendzone with her, which I didn't think possible at first, but does happen to a few LBH who try to be supportive or who meet the expectations of the WW for the post-D relationship. Keep on being independent, mysterious, improved, etc. Don't become her gay boyfriend.

Minman2, I'm probably giving you too much feedback because I'm no vet after all. I just feel more comfortable in sitches that are still early like yours, and people with your profile, that match my own after BD.

Keep at it.

[Miman2]

I guess I am just too emotional for my own good.

Part of me thinks I didn't accept the phone because that would seem like another step in finality and then I wouldn't have a way to reach out to her if I needed to. (Control issue? Fear of losing control?) She didn't give me her current address, I doubt she would give me her new number.

That text I sent was the first self initiated text since week 2. She seemed convinced that I had moved on, which I suppose is the point, so I guess I stupidly thought I would send a text to make sure her lines of communication were still open.

I worry about the friendzone as well, I think that's why I didn't say yes right away when she asked if we could still be friends.

I wanted SO badly to reach out and hug her, especially when she was full out crying.

My mom kept asking last night if I thought it was a good or bad thing that I saw her. I told her I didn't know, I felt like I was just getting to the point where I missed her but it didn't hurt SO badly anymore and now I feel like I just reopened old wounds.

My mom is convinced that it was still a good meeting because the W seemed to show a lot of concern about me and while she was willing to give up the phone she still didn't want to give up the apt key.

There are still bits of and pieces I'm remembering. Like at one point she asked again if I wanted her to take the cats. I told her no. She said she thought I might want to get a dog because I've wanted one for a while now and she felt bad that I never could get one. I told her I loved the cats and was happy they were around. She mentioned something about it seeming like I'm taking better care of them than she ever did.

There was a point near the end, maybe just after we talked about the OC, where she mentioned something about her having new goals now, I asked her if she would tell me those goals. She mentioned moving for her new position in Fl, how she was going to be management there and how she was going to run her own facility. She then went on to tell me that I'm no longer tethered to anyone and I could look for any job I wanted. I told her I never felt tethered, she responded with "you always called it the two-body problem". I told her that's how its just referred to in academia because if you move to a new location you want to make sure both people have jobs awaiting for them, but it's not really a "problem".

[Miman2]

PMA is WAY down today. Had IC this morning.

He seemed to think that I wasn't authentic enough, and that I missed an opportunity to reconfirm to the W that I was willing to work on the M. He said that it seemed to him that she was probing for something and that might have been the recommitment from me.

He also said that it seems to him that the W said the "We can never get back together" under no uncertain terms. He asked what I thought about it. I mentioned the "trust nothing they say and only 50% of what they do." He went on to say that as the new person that I want to become in our R, I would have to carefully listen to what she said and take her words as truth. He mentioned that with other women he's worked with that are in the same position as the W that saying those word were really hard. So the fact that she said it meant that she was telling me exactly what she wanted.

I mentioned some of the other things she said like the friendship and lunches she wants to have, and how she asked about if I even wanted to reach out to her. The IC mentioned that it does cast some doubt on her statement, but more than likely she was doing those things out of guilt of how bad she was making me feel.

I asked him if he thought most people on the brink of divorce could come back from it, he said yes, under two conditions. 1) They both have to be committed to working on the R and I forgot what he mentioned as the second one.

For whatever reason that made me seriously consider finding a new therapist...

He said I have 2 options now. 1) Wait. Don't stir the pot, see what happens. He mentioned the only drawback to that is time is ticking away. 2) Sit down with her and ask her what she really wants and try to work out where we are going from here. He mentioned that the only drawback to this is that I would have to be prepared for whatever her answer may be.

He wrapped up by asking if she new 100% without a doubt her answer, and that answer was she didn't want to be with me, would I want to know?

That immediately made me tear up again... guess he had his answer.

He said that I should just wait then and try to refocus on myself.

[Miman2]

So... I've been thinking. The W had a client pass away at work and that was the reason she reached out to me in the first place. She texted Wednesday at 5:30 but my phone never got it (computer at work did though, so that's how I know the time), she called 2 hours later asking if she could come over to talk and that was the basis of having dinner yesterday.

Now I know I wasn't emotionally supportive of her during our M, so do I pull a 180 here and try to reach out to her to make sure she's doing okay?? It was a client she was close to and a lot of the other staff liked, so she seemed to take it pretty hard.

Part of me worries this goes against detaching but then I worry it's more of the same behavior of not being emotionally supportive to her.

Any thoughts?

[Miman2]

Food for thought for the previous question.

One of the things I was able to confirm was she feels like she has no friends around (other than the OC). She said all the friends she did have (me included) have been bad friends because we never supported her and now she doesn't have anyone else around.

So that tells me all she has is the OC and MAYBE some of her family helping her along in her decisions...

What should I do??

[MrBond]

I thought you wanted to stop the poly lifestyle since it got you to this point. So you still want to continue it?