Originally 34 rules also known as DB rules, from MWD, Sandi would post these as Sandi's list.
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude. 13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patient on your behalf.
21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32. Do not believe anything they say and 50% of what they do. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes
Edit- There is a series of threads that Sandi2 has written They are linked together for easy reading. There is also a link in the homework assignment but just in case you missed it. I will provide it below.
Edit #32 from "Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see." to what it says now, Point is believe Actions over Words - Cadet
Last edited by Cadet; 04/27/1503:07 PM. Reason: add link 4//8/15, edit #32 4/27/15
Thanks you, Cadet. I originally referred to it as just some "Do and Don't Tips" for the LBS, and it became known as Sandi's Rules. I cringe whenever a newcomer says they broke a rule. They were just intended to be more of a guide for the desperate LBS who did not know what to do or where to start.
If anyone doesn't understand any of the 37 listed, I will be glad to try and give a more detailed explanation. When I wrote these down, it was with no particular order and just as they came to my mind. In fact, several things could be added.
Thanks again, Cadet, and I really light your name in green neon lights.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
One question I have about the 'rules' regards asking family for help. I assume this means the family of the WAS? Reading that I did see it as possible that a LBS may try and use their own family to instigate some communication or a reconciliation etc. A little experience now suggests to me this would be just as a bad an idea as trying to use the WAS's family.
About presents: what about birthdays, anniversaries etc. Buying flowers to say sorry is different from celebrating a birthday. In principle should all occasions be ignored until there is 'progress' in the R?
How does someone reconcile pulling back with being confident, cool etc. To me it seems a different balancing act that may end up with the LBS appearing aloof.
How are these rules affected by being physically separated or by having children?
Is there any general guideline for how long these 'rules' should be adhered to. I ask because elsewhere online there are NC guides that suggest 30 days NC etc. I understand pulling back but should it be done for a set period of time or until (hopefully) there is a positive change in your sitch?
By the bar scene I assume that means going out with the intention to date/pull? How about socialising with new friends/people unknown to WAS. In a relatively small town it is possible to be seen by WAS or their friends whilst out, even if this is in a completely innocent scenario. Any advice on that? Of course you have to get out. Maybe I'm asking also about how to handle any fallout from being seen just being out and about with 'new friends.'
How do you reconcile focusing on your spouse in communication whilst not appearing to ask what they're up to or be seen as pursuing.
Are there any general exceptions to ignoring what you see/hear?
BD - 30TH JAN 2015 S - 30TH JAN 2015 PA CONFIRMED - 16TH FEB 2015 (SINCE AT LEAST OCT 2014) CONTINUAL TALK OF D ME: 31 W: 28 T: 10yrs M: 4.5yrs D:5, S:6
Yes, I have read both the books a few times. I haven't seen answers to those questions I asked, hence why I am asking them here in reference to the 37 'rules'. Maybe others too who have read the books may not have gleaned all the information they could have done from them. I'm sorry if I'm being daft here.
BD - 30TH JAN 2015 S - 30TH JAN 2015 PA CONFIRMED - 16TH FEB 2015 (SINCE AT LEAST OCT 2014) CONTINUAL TALK OF D ME: 31 W: 28 T: 10yrs M: 4.5yrs D:5, S:6
First off, the rules are from the book. Sandi copied these 'rules' from another poster and re-posted it here years ago.
Second, you need to move this over onto your own thread so that people can follow your story and answer the questions as they relate to your personal story.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
I'm sorry, I thought I read earlier Sandi saying she may answer questions about those rules. I understand the rules were taken from the book. I don't always see how they were extracted. Some seem contradictory, at least in this rule format. Maybe that would be a good discussion point. I tried not to personalise my questions. I'm sure if I have had these queries others have too. I post regularly in a more personalised fashion on my own thread should anyone want to follow that.
BD - 30TH JAN 2015 S - 30TH JAN 2015 PA CONFIRMED - 16TH FEB 2015 (SINCE AT LEAST OCT 2014) CONTINUAL TALK OF D ME: 31 W: 28 T: 10yrs M: 4.5yrs D:5, S:6
Let me try to explain about the list. I did not copy it from anyone. There is no such list in Michele's book. It all started when I was posting to a newcomer LBH and I just started listing things he should and/or should not do. These "rules" are, however, based on Michele's principles. That is what's meant by saying they came from her book. You may not find the exact wording to match the rules, but the principles came from the content of her book. Make sense?
Quote:
By the bar scene I assume that means going out with the intention to date/pull? How about socialising with new friends/people unknown to WAS. In a relatively small town it is possible to be seen by WAS or their friends whilst out, even if this is in a completely innocent scenario. Any advice on that? Of course you have to get out. Maybe I'm asking also about how to handle any fallout from being seen just being out and about with 'new friends.'
The one about staying away from bars was in the list b/c that particular newcomer had met someone in a bar, and the results caused more complication in his life. I left it in the list b/c of reading posts from vulnerable LBH'S who did not go with intentions of picking up a woman, but was either hit on by a woman, or introduced to a woman, and the flirtation would start (but not necessarily end there). It is just my own opinion about the bars being used as a social atmosphere, due to problems that can easily arise. The man may not be looking for a date, but that doesn't prevent some woman hitting on him. The bar issue is strictly up to the individual, just as the other 36 are choices.
You say some seem contradictive. Do you mean with what Michele says or the rules in the list?
I will gladly answer questions pertaining to any of the 37 listed, however, I believe it may be less confusing if we don't try to cover too wide a span at one time. Maybe zone in on one question at a time.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Personally I don't plan to date or even try and pick up women for the foreseeable future, way post D, should that happen. I was referring to going out GAL, forming new friendships, maybe in a mixed social group, but being seen by S and it being taken the wrong way. Like I said, we have to get out and GAL, it's just that it would seem like that if a W, or one of her friends for example, saw H sat in a bar with a few unknown people (maybe some are the opposite sex) it could be taken the wrong way.
What I meant by being contradictory was this: one rule says to not ask the WAS anything, appear relatively uninterested, but another rule says to focus communication on your W. Now, I understand stopping activities and looking at them, paying full attention when they speak etc, but what I was asking was how to not appear to be pursuing whilst focusing on them in communication. Does that mean asking a general question and then stepping back and letting them roll with it? I wonder because if one asked how was your weekend/day at work/trip/conference etc, it could be seen as pursuit even if the intention was to focus on W rather than yourself.
Last edited by alpha99; 04/05/1503:54 PM.
BD - 30TH JAN 2015 S - 30TH JAN 2015 PA CONFIRMED - 16TH FEB 2015 (SINCE AT LEAST OCT 2014) CONTINUAL TALK OF D ME: 31 W: 28 T: 10yrs M: 4.5yrs D:5, S:6
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
Alpha, make sure you see the entire sentence. If a spouse is trying to score points by buying gifts, then it's a wrong move to make.
I am not sure which rules you may be referencing about being aloof and confusing with focusing on her. Can you give me the number of the rules? It would save time.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I understand what you're saying about gifts for brownie points. Randomly buying gifts is a form of pursuit and so clearly a bad idea. I guess I was asking what to do when it comes to birthdays, Christmas etc. Do you think it would appear mean or cold hearted not to buy gifts on those occasions if they are bought simply for the occasion, not as a big gesture of love?
With regards to conflict, I think I meant rules 16 and 31. Re-reading 16 makes it clear you're talking about asking (or rather not asking) about whereabouts. I think my question still holds: how to ensure you're not pursuing if you are attempting to focus communication on WAW and not yourself?
BD - 30TH JAN 2015 S - 30TH JAN 2015 PA CONFIRMED - 16TH FEB 2015 (SINCE AT LEAST OCT 2014) CONTINUAL TALK OF D ME: 31 W: 28 T: 10yrs M: 4.5yrs D:5, S:6
I know that this question is directed to Sandi. I'd like to chime in here to give some perspective.
Originally Posted By: alpha99
I think my question still holds: how to ensure you're not pursuing if you are attempting to focus communication on WAW and not yourself?
Asking questions about how their day went, how they are, or anything related to them personally is considered pursuing and your WAW will feel it emanating from your pores.
Communication centers on how you can convey and carry a message across to WAW. Respectful? Cordial? Validating? How you communicate really sets the tone of your interactions with WAW. How you do it is up to you. Want to be a jerk? Then act like one. Want to be upbeat? Then act upbeat.
It's not rocket science.
The problem as I see it around here is that the LBHs try to read waaaay toooo much into what the WAW says or doesn't say. Like trying to read tea leaves. By exhibiting those thought patterns, one does not really deomonsstrate a true detachment. When one's truly detached, then one isn't overly concerned with how or what is being said/done.
For me, some things are so simple in hindsight but it takes another's perspective to see what should be obvious. Having kids is a big plus in communicating as it is a conversation starter to see how they've been etc. I'm sure there are plenty of other neutral topics for others to use.
You make a valid point about detachment. Being at the point where every utterance from your WAW doesn't have you swaying one way or the other surely has to be the way to go.
BD - 30TH JAN 2015 S - 30TH JAN 2015 PA CONFIRMED - 16TH FEB 2015 (SINCE AT LEAST OCT 2014) CONTINUAL TALK OF D ME: 31 W: 28 T: 10yrs M: 4.5yrs D:5, S:6
Desperate for some advice.. I'm in a committed 2 year relationship, but we don't live together yet. Now suddenly his feelings "has changed" and "he doesn't feel the same" and so on.
We (mostly him) has asked for time and space to think things through and that he doesn't want to be persuaded into going on with the relationship. My reply was that I had no plan to persuade him, I want him to want to stay..
Do you think these rules, pulling away, not contacting him but wait for him, and so on would be the best option for me as well? Haven't spoken for 24 hours now and it's really getting to me.
Don't think other woman is involved.. Thankful for ANY advice!!! I need it bad..
Hope it's ok that I ask even though were not married..
Last edited by Cadet; 08/16/1609:56 AM. Reason: combine posts
M: 44 H: 43 ILYBNILWY: 7/4-15 Decided to try to reconnect. "This doesn't work, I have no feelings": 20/4-15 Scheduled "talk" :9/5-15 It's over: 9/5
Great set of rules. They seem mostly to apply to LBS doing LRT. My situation is not yet there but potentially could get there.in such a case is the advice to follow all the rules anyway or can some be ignored to start with.
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
I would like to rewrite this one to be
Do not believe anything they say and 50% of what they do.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
I would like to rewrite this one to be
Do not believe anything they say and 50% of what they do.
Point is believe Actions over Words.
Cadet,
I see your point. Sandi, what do you think about Cadet's suggestion?
Thank you both!
Bob
Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS) M:14 yrs T:15 yrs No children together--3 each from previous marriages Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14 Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14 Divorce Final: 10/21/15
Rereading the rules there are none that I have real reason to question. If I come across one specifically that feels inappropriate to my situation I'll ask about it in my post.
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
What about the rules in regards to the WW filing for divorce and maintaining her affair?
There is not a specified rule in regards to her filing for D. In a case such as yours, my suggestion would be to continue using the 37 rules as long as you are under the same roof. As soon as the two of you are under separate roofs, then you go dark.
It is not too late to apply these rules, although we can't guarantee how much impact it may have on any individual, I believe it is a good guideline whenever in doubt as what to do.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Great set of rules. They seem mostly to apply to LBS doing LRT. My situation is not yet there but potentially could get there.in such a case is the advice to follow all the rules anyway or can some be ignored to start with.
I disagree. I think a lot of them apply to any relationship in which one partner is heading out the door & the other wants the R to continue.
Pull back, get a grip and really dig deep within Yourself to see what, if anything needs changing IN YOU -
and follow most/all the rules til you have done YOUR work.
THEN you can reassess and decide if & when the LRT would need application but since it is THE LAST resort, by definition,
you'd do a whole lot of other approaches (see "rules") FIRST.
Make sense?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Thanks 25yearsmlc, I copied your advice to my thread to be able to reread from time to time.
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
Thank you for these rules, I am learning a lot here. I was struggling with how often to text/call H during the day. If I text him about the kids- for example my son had a dr appointment today- he usually ignores it. If I text him that his new shoes were delivered I get an immediate response. So I am going to stop texting him, unless it is something logistical and urgent, no friendly texts until he starts. This is heartbreaking. That is the biggest one for me, I am going to reread them though.
The rule of thumb about contacting is to not "initiate" it. Unless of course, there is some type of real emergency. In other words, do not find excuses to text. Ask yourself if it can wait until H contacts you, or is it something you can, at the least, hold till the end of the workday.
(If there is a child with special needs, then of course, this "rule" should be adjusted accordingly.)
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I never remember saying what you've quoted below. It goes totally opposite of what I would advise. I have seen a few places where another poster misquoted me on their thead. Can you tell me where you saw it, and I'll check it out.
Quote:
Hey Sandi, you mentioned below that if living in separate roofs, the LBS should go dark ...instead of using the rules or doing Last Resort Technique?
Where is the "below"?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I have been searching to see where you might have read. I think perhaps this may be the reply you saw to a poster who was asking about his particular stitch. Just guessing, since you have not posted any more.
Quote:
There is not a specified rule in regards to her filing for D. In a case such as yours, my suggestion would be to continue using the 37 rules as long as you are under the same roof. As soon as the two of you are under separate roofs, then you go dark.
It is not too late to apply these rules, although we can't guarantee how much impact it may have on any individual, I believe it is a good guideline whenever in doubt as what to do.
This is the advice I gave that person for his stitch.. Please note that it may not apply to your stitch b/c yours could be somewhat different. I encourage you to post your story by starting a thread.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Hi Sandi I was wondering about the part where you say "Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel?" -- is there a time that you should give up? How do you keep your self respect. How do you protect yourself from suffering needlessly.. if you just hang on? I find it so so hard to let go...and that's why I am not giving up. But I wonder if I should try more to let go? what do you mean "do not give up?"
Hi LMS, so sorry to read your story. It's great that you are posting on other people's threads, but you will get a lot more personalized help and responses if you start your own thread. Click on the "For Newcomers" link above, and then "New topic"
Hang in there!
Linda
Me 65, Ex 64 M 38 y 2 adult S, 4 G-Kids MLC 11/07 BD 12/09 D 3/14 Dating nice guy 7/14 Engaged to nice guy 12/17
Hi Sandi I was wondering about the part where you say "Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel?" -- is there a time that you should give up? How do you keep your self respect. How do you protect yourself from suffering needlessly.. if you just hang on? I find it so so hard to let go...and that's why I am not giving up. But I wonder if I should try more to let go? what do you mean "do not give up?"
What she means by not giving up is by not being tempted to call or text or email.
What she means by not giving up is by not being tempted to call or text or email.
Perhaps Sandi would clarify. That is not at all the way I interpreted it. I took it to mean do not give up on DB'ing just because it seems hopeless. If she meant this to apply to a particular "rule", I would think she would have said "don't give IN".
H:54 W:46 D:11 D:21 M:12 BD:1/15 In-house Separation 2/15 DB started 7/15, W sees consistency 9/15 Dropping the rope and having her leave 2/16, moves 5/16 Reconciliation 1/17 Obviously still struggling
I will add: making a choice based on your feelings is often wrong. The feeling of hopelessness could fade - but if you've taken action in that time, it may not be taking you toward your goals!
So, after reading the rules and trying to apply them, I still have a question about talking to my spouse. He has moved out and I am not texting or calling him, just answering and trying to be upbeat. He asks lots of questions about my day which, when I try to be brief, he asks more. I don't want to cut him off or be cold. Also, is it okay to ask him how he's doing since he is asking me? Is this still pursuing, and if so, is that so bad if one of his complaints is that he felt that I did 't love him, merely tolerated him?
M-51 H-54 2D-27 and 25 M-26 yrs Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15 He moved out 10-3-15 D filed 1-27-16 D final 10-27-16
Hi Sandi2. I want to thank you for your wonderful posts particularly the WW posts. I am almost 100% sure that my WW is having an A. It would explain a great many things. However I do agree that I don't know the WW I am barely married to anymore. Her heart has heartened, turned cold and vindictive and I still don't know why since she won't talk to me except by email.
I just find it extremely difficult to understand how one can go from being love to being extremely cold. This is a concept that I still trying to understand. That said I have not contacted her at all since she left.
I just find it extremely difficult to understand how one can go from being love to being extremely cold. This is a concept that I still trying to understand. That said I have not contacted her at all since she left.
I would agree on the bar scene. I've been separated for a month from my wife. I went to a bar once, and had my fortitude tested on the first night. Luckily I feel convicted in handling this separation properly and with integrity, but it felt nice to have a someone find you interesting and attractive, however that person was not my spouse and that is territory I will not entertain.
Me: 33 W: 32 Married: 4/2007 Trial Sep: 12/5/2015 S:5 y/o S:3 y/o EA w/OM#1 confirmed and ended: 6/12/14 EA w/OM#2 Confirmed 1/7/2016 still continues
What if your spouse is friendly and wants to do things with you "as a friend," but "the relationship as man-and-wife" is "over"?
Are you satisfied being just a friend and ready to put the idea of ever being man & wife behind you? If you are, then be her "friend". However, know up front that your idea of what kind of friendship you'll have....and her idea of friendship, will be completely mismatched. Anyone can be her friend. Only one person can be her spouse. You decide.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
So, after reading the rules and trying to apply them, I still have a question about talking to my spouse. He has moved out and I am not texting or calling him, just answering and trying to be upbeat. He asks lots of questions about my day which, when I try to be brief, he asks more. I don't want to cut him off or be cold. Also, is it okay to ask him how he's doing since he is asking me? Is this still pursuing, and if so, is that so bad if one of his complaints is that he felt that I did 't love him, merely tolerated him?
I haven't read your sitch, so I don't know the details. Up front, I would say that you can answer his contacts and continue to be warm and friendly. Answer any questions and talk about your day, as though he were a neighbor. However, don't reveal too much about your private moments, your feelings/emotions, and especially GAL. I think you can do the same (to an extent), for sake of not appearing mad, cold/mean. Like I said, I don't know about your situation, so I am taking a little chance in saying it. During his call, when he asks about your day, give him an answer and then casually ask about his.....but don't get detailed and don't continue "digging". Don't try to keep him talking in order to hang on to his time or attention. That is the point behind it, is not to appear clingy and desperate.
Last edited by sandi2; 01/05/1606:55 PM.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I have a WAW. On 11/30 she left me and our 5 boys and went back to her parent's to live. I filed on 12/8 but want to save the M for my family.
Edit
Originally Posted By: J5K
I have a WAW. On 11/30 she left me and our 5 boys and went back to her parent's to live. I filed on 12/8 but want to save the M for my family.
Please start your own thread
Last edited by Cadet; 02/15/1706:37 AM. Reason: posts combined
H-46 XW-38 T-7 M-6 S-9,8,8,6,4 S 11/30/15, I filed 12/8/15 EA 2/1/16 D dismissed 3/24/16 PA 3/18/16 confirmed 4/22/16 XW files for D 4/1/16 - D final 11/17/16 Finally moving forward...
Go to the top of the screen and there is a new topic box on the left hand side. Click on it and then you will open the window to create a new subject as well as a posting. It's the same way that you created this thread.
She is running fast towards Divorce...I am posting on the newcomer board.
But there are so many good articles on why not to divorce, the selfishness, how bad it is for the kids (they are not resilient!), etc.. I found a bunch of articles around why you shouldnt divorce
I was thinking about sending these to my W to read ...is that taboo?
_________________________ Me-48 Spouse-WAW 52 Married for 10 years D7 ILYBNILWY 7/15 Suspect EA/PA 12/15 No confirmation/denial She files 1/2016 Working towards the Big D ...still in progress....
Hi Rich, sending articles is definitely not recommended. She is not going to be receptive to any information from you just now - quite the opposite I'm afraid. Use what you read for your own benefit going forwards...
Take care
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
M 43 W 45 M 10.5 T 15 S 26 D 17 (previous relationships) ILYB 12/25/15 + asks for D Confirm affair 1/10/16 W has D ready to sign, but agrees to wait for refinancing to go through (I get a house!)
To know how many, or a percentage, we would have to know the total number of cases, including how many did not return, if they were wayward, walk-away, or MLC. And what space of time do you mean, like the beginning of time or since this board has been available, or what?
Since I have been on the board, I notice that the majority of people leave without us ever knowing how their story turns out. Then there are all those people who read but never post. In short, it is impossible to answer the question you asked.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Would someone please share Sandi's thread on WW vs WAS. I know I am confusing a lot of people who read my thread and I am doing all that I can to understand DB.
H-46 XW-38 T-7 M-6 S-9,8,8,6,4 S 11/30/15, I filed 12/8/15 EA 2/1/16 D dismissed 3/24/16 PA 3/18/16 confirmed 4/22/16 XW files for D 4/1/16 - D final 11/17/16 Finally moving forward...
Once a WW is remorseful, says she is sorry for what happened and wants to go back to having a family I understand there will be a detox period.
What I have doubts about is the initiation and not just sex. If she just kisses when she leaves to go somewhere and never did before, texts in the morning to say hi when I am travelling and sporadically sends images of something from a meal she cooked to something that arrived in the post for me. I take these as good signs.
She however once last week walked in my room and passed her hands through my hair, and a couple of weeks ago sent a selfie of her in a dress she bought that i liked.
When I am travelling she almost always texts at night to say goodnight.
Are these signs she is warming? Why is the sex and touchiness still missing? I tried once to initiate some weeks ago and she participated. I then tried a few weeks later and she wasnt in the mood so I backed off since.
I read your post where WS need time to get back in the mood and to be weary if they jump back in soon after. Is this what is happening or am I being played?
Sometimes it is so difficult to know where you stand when things are so black or white or extreme.
She leaves her phone lying around, spends more time at home. Starts to do some things different at home and in general starts to talk about fixing the home like painting and things like that.
Hi Max, just saw your post. You ask a really good question, and one that is not simple to answer (without knowing your W).
The first thing I would probably ask, if I were counseling, would be how was your sex life in the M before things blew apart?
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I read your post where WS need time to get back in the mood and to be weary if they jump back in soon after. Is this what is happening or am I being played?
Right, and remember that when I make these type of statements I am referring to the majority. If I were talking one on one and finding out more individual details....it may be more fined tuned.
Generally speaking, women usually have to get one man out of their system before they can let another one in. That includes having sex and sexual touching, usually. I don't know about this youngest generation anymore, but back in the day, most women emotionally tied love and sex together, unless there was some type of profit behind her sex acts.
It's not just a matter of her being in the mood or not, but how far along the road of withdrawals she has gotten. The WW is dealing with a lot of shifting in feelings. She once loved her H, then that love died....or so she thought, so then she loved another man....or so she thought, but then she had to end her feelings for OM and find her original feelings for her H again. That's a lot of internal stuff going on. Maybe it's easier and faster for some women than others, and maybe some women are sexually high driven enough that it's not an obstacle for them. I'm just saying what I have observed over the years.
Some of the wisest words I heard were, "Women want to make up, in order to have sex. Men want to have sex, in order to make up". Many LBH'S look for the W to initiate sex, b/c to him it will be a very good sign that the MR is on it's way to healing. For her, however, she needs more healing before she's ready for the sex. (In most cases). If I had to make a guess, I'd say it looks as if your W is putting effort into it.....she just isn't quite there, yet.
There was a poster a year or so ago, who had a WW in an active PA. Long story short, she went from sleeping with the OM one night to having sex with her H two nights later. Her H was elated! I kept warning him that the MR was not fixed, that nothing had been resolved.....but hey, he was getting sex at least a couple times per day, so he was happy. He left pretty soon afterwards and haven't heard anymore. Now that woman, I did not trust. Nothing about how she approached her H was decent (she literally sneaked in the back door and got into his bed) or respectable. Of course, that was my opinion, but the way she was doing it was like she was making it look shady or dirty (they were separated at the time). She didn't want anyone knowing for a while, b/c she liked the feeling of keeping it secret.....as if it were wrong (much like her affair) and sneaking around from house to house after midnight. No discussion about what she'd done to destroy the M, no talk about what they would need to do to heal, and she certainly never showed any remorse for her behavior. So yeah, I think she just found a certain amount of thrill in using her H to slip around in the dark and skrew b/c she had grown tired of the OM. Was she genuine about wanting to make her M work again? Well, I sure had my doubts! Do I think she's an example of how most WW's are when returning to their H? Nope! The best I remember, they claimed they were just taking each day as it came. And, I felt pretty sure how that whole story was going to play out.
Was she playing her LBH? I'd say so. If her aim was to just go back home and bypass any of the work she needed to do, she found a sleazy way of doing it. However, I can't place all the fault at her feet, when he was the one coming to the board and getting the information about what to expect and what needed to happen to make it work. He did not want to say or do anything to stop the sex horse that found her way through the dark and entered his house. Who knows how long that lasted.
I believe some WW's play their H b/c the W knows she can pretty much get her way as long she's giving him all the sex she wants. Right? Right! Like I said, some will use sex for profit. If she wants to go back home, but she's still as wayward as Lucifer in her heart....she may take on the sex, knowing it will get her back in the door.....and he'll finally settle down and things will go back to how it use to be.
If I were you, I'd check to see if her words, attitude, behavior, and actions matched. It may take some more work to get there, but if you are seeing her show respects through her words, attitude, behavior and actions....the loving feelings will follow.
Use her LL she needs, and don't wait till bedtime to do it.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Generally speaking, women usually have to get one man out of their system before they can let another one in. That includes having sex and sexual touching, usually. I don't know about this youngest generation anymore, but back in the day, most women emotionally tied love and sex together, unless there was some type of profit behind her sex acts.
This is definitely the case with my W. I didn't want to believe the signs of detachment, or more specifically believed the excuses. Then rather than forcing myself into the situation (or questioning/confronting) I gave her the space I thought she needed. Stupid move. All that did was make her feel lonelier, and she moved more towards that emotional and then physical support while cutting me off.
The funny thing was it was all so fast. Really fast now that I look back, a few brief months to undo 30 years. And she played me like a violin until she got tired of that - because I believed her and it wasn't as fun as she had hoped.
Sandi's thoughts on the WW are downright creepy, how I wish they were wrong.
Me: 58 Her: 59 Kids: 0 Dog: 1 ILYBINILWY: 9/15 D Bomb: 1/11/16 (found out filed) Verified OM: 1/11/16 Moved out: 1/11/16 (thought it was temporary)
In answer to your question our sl was great when things were good and suicidal when the problems started to non existent when i moved out the mbr. I then fell into a ea turned pa and contact was minimal and distant. In dec 2014 i stopped pa to work on mr and may 2015 found that something was going on though during that time she had travelled with me a few times but things were still tense. She began to change around aig sept 2015 but nov 2015 saw them both walking from gim talking.
They split him to car and she home. I confronted her and she claimed they were talking about his w who is being treated for the big c. I told her i did not care and nc was nc. She could not see anything wrong and brought our son in on argument and was shocked when he told her i was right.
I threw a lot of her stuff into spare room and was moving rest when all hell broke loose and she threw a tantrum as i did not stop moving her stuff out.
She left and when she came back hours later slept on couch. I had mbr door closed. In the morning she sat on bed woke me up and said she was sorry and wanted to make it work.
I told her nc was nc and next time i was leaving and fir goid.
Since then we are in a sort of piecing with a positive trend where she speaks softly and respectfully and we some days have a laugh but ..... No sex.
It just reminds me if when we were living together years ago and sex was always an issue. I do not want to go back to the friend zone and no sex because this r will not work without it if it is a unilateral decision.
If it is a case of time to get there then fine. If it is a case of that not being one of her objectives then no. Hell no.
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
Hi Sandi, I don't understand your Rule #10. Why is snooping bad, especially when I'm at the beginning of divorce proceedings filed by my wife? She was gaslighting me, pretending to go along with reconciliation but I felt something was wrong. I spied and it gave me several weeks to: 1. Uncover her secret plans to file, thus I was able prepare and structure finances before she could move any money 2. Interview prospective attorneys and pick one without pressure of having to respond to a filing 3. Learn of her legal strategy and what she planned to go after 4. Throw a wrench into her plans and thus delayed things by several weeks
Of course, there was a high emotional cost to it. It really made me see my WW in a negative light. Her hurtful comments to others about me really hurt, but hardened my heart and enabled me to prepare rationally. I learned she was still contacting OM despite telling everyone she cut him off. Mentally it was extremely stressful. But legally and financially I believe it helped me a lot.
Let me know your thoughts, thanks.
Me-LBH, 48 Spouse-WW, 48 Married for 19 years Son, 12 BD #1 - November 1998 (EA 7 months after wedding) BD #2 - November 2015 (same XBF EA) WW filed D February 2016 WW moved out April 2016
I believe MWD refers to gathering intel (may not her exact words). What I feel becomes unhealthy is how it seems almost addictive to the LBS. I have seen some that was haunted by the information they gathered, and yet, they would continue going back to read through emails and text messages. They got more caught up in snooping than in working on themselves. The information they received through snooping affects some people after the M is reconciled, just as some LBS's cannot deal with knowing every little detail of the AP's having sex. (However, MWD says they should have all their questions about the affair answered). The LBS is stuck with those images branded in the mind. Each person has to decide what is healthy or unhealthy for themselves. I just know there have been so many who have said they wished they had never known.
These "rules" are just a guideline to give newcomers a place to start DBing. I will just say that each person has to follow their own conscious and do what they feel is right about #10.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I believe MWD refers to gathering intel (may not her exact words). What I feel becomes unhealthy is how it seems almost addictive to the LBS. I have seen some that was haunted by the information they gathered, and yet, they would continue going back to read through emails and text messages. They got more caught up in snooping than in working on themselves. The information they received through snooping affects some people after the M is reconciled, just as some LBS's cannot deal with knowing every little detail of the AP's having sex. (However, MWD says they should have all their questions about the affair answered). The LBS is stuck with those images branded in the mind. Each person has to decide what is healthy or unhealthy for themselves. I just know there have been so many who have said they wished they had never known.
These "rules" are just a guideline to give newcomers a place to start DBing. I will just say that each person has to follow their own conscious and do what they feel is right about #10.
I see. Fortunately I found none of those types of images, just some fairly innocuous headshots of WW and OM.
It was more the intent and words that really hurt me. But if I didn't look at my WW's phone or emails (which I didn't for 17 years, even though I was the fool that set up her phones!), I probably would not know to this day what happened. I would have had to buy the whole "we've grown apart" speech she gave me.
When I hear WW's conversations now it does hurt me badly, especially when she is plotting against me and refers to me in a negative manner. However, I feel I am justified doing this as in the long run it will help my son and me legally and financially.
The information I gathered in the first episode of WW's EA did affect me after we reconciled. However, I made myself complacent that I blocked out the negative feelings I had then and taught myself to believe in her completely. I trusted her completely, after we had S11 and believed her words that "nothing will tear us apart."
Me-LBH, 48 Spouse-WW, 48 Married for 19 years Son, 12 BD #1 - November 1998 (EA 7 months after wedding) BD #2 - November 2015 (same XBF EA) WW filed D February 2016 WW moved out April 2016
Thank you for the link, ma'am. There are so many helpful people on this site.
-PM
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
Any other rules of tips with was initiates NO contact unless about practical stuff, eg meeting with a mediator to discuss splitting assets? H Won't even tell me what are of town (arrived 3 mo ago no idea he was planing to leave and stay here, we're supposed to leave a month ago together). I did NOT contact him at all on his birthday this week. It killed me but it was the only thing I coudl think to do. He goes up to three weeks wo contact and never returned my intial email letters or infrequent friendly texts. We met with a priest three weeks ago and it was basically him rewriting history saying hurtful things like sorry I wasted last six years of your life, we never really dated (lie), cold hard walled off Compeltely. Had me served S papers in church parking lot afterwards.
I see that my posts are very scattered, so I do apologize for that. I assumed my situation was so bad that doing a 180 or going dark would be the solution.
@Cadet I don't see where me giving the letter is not a sign of me doing a 180. I really want to make this marriage work, but I do not see how unless I go to drastic measures.
M-41 W-46 T- 17 years M- 13 yrs SS - 25 SD- 22 D 11 ILYBNILWY - 6/6/15 Status - DBing, GAL
I started reading DR a few weeks back. I read these rules at that time, and I just read over them again. Right now, my H has filed the divorce paperwork, and has absolutely no interest in ever recovering the marriage. I've tried implementing the rules, but I feel like a lot of them are easier said than done, and some of them even feel seemingly impossible. Right now my focus is on ME. I've spent the last year and a half trying to save my marriage, but he continued with the A. I think I made a mistake by moving out, but he made me feel very bad about staying, and we fought in intense manners, this was before I started DB'ing. I have very major ups and downs, but this up I am on right now is what I am trying to stick with. I just know I will fall back down hard soon, but will try my best to prevent it. Everything within me tells me this is a HUGE mistake, so I'm trying to follow these rules, but because we don't live together, and don't really speak, I don't know how to apply most of them, and I don't know if he'd even notice. When do I just give up? I've read so much material, and a lot of the things I've read say that the way my H is acting, he will come back when he wakes back up and faces reality, slowly that hope within me is disappearing. Anyway, if anyone has any advice on how to better implement these rules in my situation, I would appreciate it!
Hi Asmeds, thanks for your comments. Yes, the rules are certainly easier said than done. And, I agree they may be more geared for the couple who are under the same roof. However, many S continue to use them after separation and even the initial divorce. They use them as a general base guide in how to interact during pick up and drop off with their kids.
These are pretty much bullet points, without the explanations. If you will tell me which ones you feel you are not able to implement in your situation, I would be glad to expound a little more.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Well, I guess I just feel like I don't know how to implement them. Once the divorce is finalized, I will have no reason to talk to him, especially since we don't have kids, and as of right now, he wants nothing to do with me. I also feel like I need to become a stronger person first, and maybe that will help me implement these rules better. There wasn't anything specific, that's just the general feeling I get when I read over the rules.
I think you need to stop worrying about it. These are a guide as how to deal with an unreconciled spouse where there is still interaction. You don't have to implement them if you are D and your lives won't be intertwined. He goes his way and you go your way.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Sandi, When I am home with him (he want to divorce and is "trying" to move out), do I look him in the eye and smile and say hello? Or do I completely ignore him?
Edit from Sandi2 I will check out your thread and comment there.
My spouse and I stumbled over here by a different web address and thought I might check things out. I like what I see so i am just following you. Look forward to checking out your web page again.
Sandi2, Thank you for these rules. I have already been trying to do a lot of them, but this list is affirmation that I am doing the right thing. Sometimes it is hard to do these things when you don't see immediate results. Especially #24. I go through times when I just feel like ending it and allowing it to be over so I can start to heal and then find someone who will truly appreciate me and not make me feel so worthless. I know that this isn't truly about me, but about him and what is going on inside, but it still doesn't make it hurt any less. Still working on distancing, I guess I am afraid that if I truly distance myself from H than it is over. And that is something that is hard to accept.
H: 48 W: 41 M: 12 D: 10 1st DB: 3/15/16 2nd DB/S: 4/2/16 - H moved out of bedroom False Reconciliation: 7/17/16 - H moved back into bedroom
thanks for the rules. I want to make my own personal post but can't seem to figure out how
How to start a thread
I will use what Job wrote
First Click on Newcomers then:
Originally Posted By: job
Go to the top of the screen and there is a new topic box on the left hand side. Click on it and then you will open the window to create a new subject as well as a posting. It's the same way that you created this thread.
Isn't 15 kind of faking it actually? And if you come across as something is wrong and then you say "nothing", do you really expect they will believe that? They are going to think your looking like pouting and then saying "nothing" is totally a game to get them to really probe you about what is wrong.
As for 19, if someone were to want to improve themselves in any way, it might be interpreted as competing with the OP. But then what do you do if you know that is an area that needs improving in your relationship and you sincerely want to improve it? Why is that fake just because the OP makes you realize it or makes you realize you can solve it?
I think there are a lot of good points here but where do you draw the line between being the NEW and BETTER you that is supposed to be attractive to your spouse and playing games or suppressing yourself in ways that result in you not being new and better?
I don't want to confuse anyone, by responding to your questions, and I'm not sure how good of a job I'll do.....but here goes. The 37 rules are basically bullet points for the newcomer to have some type of map after they've experienced the emotional bomb drop (or the equivalent). Most of them come here in a state of shock and say they don't have a clue as how to interact with their S, or how to conduct themselves when their S does not want to work to save the M. The rules do not go into details b/c it is a list of do's and don'ts.
Is it faking? Well, the emotions probably feel as if you are faking, but that doesn't mean the action is wrong. Ever heard, "Fake till you make it"?
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As for 19, if someone were to want to improve themselves in any way, it might be interpreted as competing with the OP.
Well, that's true. If the LBS didn't try to make any changes until OP was in the picture, then yes, those improvements might be misinterpreted. Personally, I think it's when the LBS tries to copy the OP, or overkill in what they refer to as improvements/changes....and it appears like pursuit, smothering, imitating, etc. By imitating, I mean for example, get your hair styled/colored like OW, dress like OW, etc.
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But then what do you do if you know that is an area that needs improving in your relationship and you sincerely want to improve it? Why is that fake just because the OP makes you realize it or makes you realize you can solve it?
That is not what rule #19 says. It doesn't make your area of improvement fake. But your attempts, or the motivation, may look fake from the OS's viewpoint. Look at that part of rule #19 again:
Last part of Rule #19: Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
If your H doesn't want you and he's not interested in working to save the M.......why would seeing you imitate, or trying to outshine his OW impress him? It won't. He will likely believe it's fake, and won't trust your intentions or motivation. He knows you better than anyone else. He can see right through you, and he'll know why you are suddenly laying it on so thick. It's b/c of the OW! If not for the OW being in the picture, would you really be trying to improve this area in your relationship as much? Nothing wakes up a LBS like the threat of a third person to their M. The other S is funny that way, he doesn't want you doing something, at this particular time (if he's in an A), b/c the OP inspired you. If you have not done this, previously, b/c of love for your S.....your "improvements/changes" may not be seen through the same lens by your spouse.
It's rather difficult for me to explain when I don't what area you are referring to changing.
Anyway, I suggest you focus on yourself and improve yourself as an individual......and as a woman. Like I said, don't overkill in whatever area it is you are wanting to improve in the MR. That was the point in rule #19. Make the improvements on yourself and for yourself. Don't make it appear as if you are competing with OW to win your H.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Isn't 15 kind of faking it actually? And if you come across as something is wrong and then you say "nothing", do you really expect they will believe that? They are going to think your looking like pouting and then saying "nothing" is totally a game to get them to really probe you about what is wrong.
Rule #15: When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
So, if you come across as something is wrong or look like you are pouting........you aren't following what #15 says. I don't know how you get playing games from what is clearly stated as being pleasant and polite. Don't say "nothing".....but don't start discussing the MR, your feelings, or him. (Gee, that was just an example.) If you use to say, "nothing", just to get your H to probe you for more.....then you should say something else, b/c this is not points in how to play female games.
Most LBS's want to talk....and talk...and talk some more. The point in the rule was that the LBS is so pleasant and calm (which the OS is not expecting) that he/she may ask what's wrong, and if so, then continue with a pleasant calmness and let the OS lead with conversation.
A lot of LBS's want to talk it out. Talk about the MR, feelings, what he's doing/not doing, etc. That doesn't work at this particular time. It only leads to arguments, and more pain for you. That's not to say that there will never come a time to discuss the problems in the relationship.....but now is not the time.
So, if your friend just died and you are heartbroken, then sure.....you don't have to stand around smiling from ear to ear. These rules are about the do's and don'ts for you in the MR with your H, until he is ready to reconcile and work to save the M. When that time comes, then will be the time to talk.
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I think there are a lot of good points here but where do you draw the line between being the NEW and BETTER you that is supposed to be attractive to your spouse and playing games or suppressing yourself in ways that result in you not being new and better?
Number one, in case I haven't made this clear......this has nothing to do with playing games. Maybe those are the type of books you have previously read on MR's (and there's plenty out there), but this is not one of them. Suppressing yourself? Well, you could be talking about a wide range from.....physically attacking someone......to holding back tears. See? It's not easy to express everything in a few words, is it?
Why do you group being attractive with playing games? Let me ask it this way......did you know how to be an attractive new & better woman before you were married? I bet you did! Apparently, your H was attracted to the woman he saw in you. Maybe you are having difficulty separating working on yourself.....and working on the M.
It would take me writing a book to go into trying to answer you the way I would I like. Maybe one of the men who don't have to use as many words, will respond.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
BULLDOG'S NUANCES TO SANDI'S 37 RULES ---> FORBETRAYEDHUSBANDS
Basically here's my comments, suggestions and ideas regarding how betrayed husband's might consider utilizing and applying Sandi's 37 Rules to their "Last Resort Technique" situations where their wife's affair appears to be or is over and their recently wayward wife isn't quite the emotional brick wall she was before and Step 3 of the LRT says to be a little more receptive & engaged in the relationship just don't over do it. It's not a repudiation of the "rules" themselves, but rather a supplement to them. They are impossible to do strictly anyway as they often self-contradict. Mostly I find the abbreviated rules as written, without context and applied together often just end up enabling the typical conflict avoiding betrayed husband to sit there doing nothing versus being more manly (however he wants to define that term for himself) and standing up for himself and his kids actually fighting strategically for his wife and LEADING his wife away from sin versus just waiting for her to walk away from sin all on her own and come back to the husband when from all indications he might be perceived as not wanting to reconcile at all. Your mileage may vary. I'm not a professional counselor.
First things first. Here's Step 3 of the Last Resort Technique.
One of three things happens when you use the last-resort technique.
1) Nothing.
Unfortunately, there are times when, no matter what you do, your spouse has firmly shut the door on your marriage. I tell you this because I don’t want you to think that this is a magic bullet. It isn’t. However, even if your marriage doesn’t improve when you do the last resort technique, your mental health will. I promise you. So many people have thanked me for suggesting this technique because it gave them back their dignity. They felt so lost and out of control prior to employing this method. With your self-esteem in place, you will feel more prepared to take on whatever comes your way. I know this isn’t what you want to hear, but since it is a possibility, you should know about it. Having said that, you should also know that there are two other responses you might observe in your spouse.
2) Your mate becomes curious.
S/he might start showing more interest in you, your whereabouts, and what you are up to in your life. Your spouse might even suggest you spend some time together to talk or do something enjoyable. It’s also possible that your spouse might start asking you a lot of questions about your sudden changes. If any of these things begin to happen, here’s my advice:
Be loving in return, but not overly excited or enthusiastic. Accept some invitations to spend time together, but not all. Do not ask any questions about your future together. Be vague when asked questions about the changes in you. Say that you are just thinking things through. Continue to be upbeat. Do not say, “I love you” Resist getting into conversations about your marriage. Beat your spouse to the punch when it comes time to leave or separate from each other at the end of an activity. You set the tone for going your separate ways. The general rule of thumb here is to be responsive to your partners new interest, but not too responsive. If you go overboard, your partner will get cold feet. I’ve seen it happen many times before. If you are excited that the last-resort technique is working, share it with a friend, write it in your journal, go for a run around the block, but don’t wear your emotions on your sleeve.
You need to stay interested, but cool, until you are absolutely convinced that your spouse’s renewed interest in saving your marriage has taken hold. Once you feel absolutely sure that this is so, you can test the waters by becoming more obvious about your desire to stay together. You can try discussing your future together and see what happens. If your spouse is receptive, you can continue to move forward slowly and begin to tackle the issues that drove you apart in the first place. If, on the other hand, you’re met with reluctance, backpedal just as quickly as you can. Resume your interested but distant stance until things move in a more positive direction. This might take a whole lot longer that you would like, weeks, even months. However, you must be patient. As long as your spouse seems to be somewhat interested rather than pulling away, it’s okay for your marriage to be in a holding pattern. It will try your patience, but what else do you have to do right now that could be as important as trying to save your marriage? Be patient.
3) Your spouse might have an overnight change of heart. That is, s/he might want to abandon any thought of divorce and jump right back into things as if nothing had ever happened. This third possibility is the least likely, but it does happen occasionally. I have some advice for you if this does happen. Don’t move too quickly! It’s really important to pace yourselves. If you act as if nothing had happened between you, it’s only a matter of time before your spouse will have second thoughts about the decision. You didn’t get to this place of disharmony overnight and, as much as you’d like to forget that it had ever happened, you probably won’t get things back on track overnight. So if you’ve been separated, don’t jump right into being together again. If you’ve been emotionally miles apart, don’t spend every waking minute at each other’s sides and don’t abandon all of your other interests. You have to back into your marriage cautiously. If you don’t, and really deal with the problematic issues before you recommit, you might find yourselves in the same situation a few weeks or months down the road.
As you do the Last Resort Technique, it might be useful to keep a solutions journal. Keep track of any and all changes you see in your spouse or your marriage. And remember, you should look for small signs of change. This might include a spouse who is a little more talkative than before, or one who emails you for the first time in months, even if the email is mundane in content. If you are living under the same roof, a small change might consist of your spouse spending time in the same room as you when in the past. s/he has avoided your presence.
Keep your eyes open and be patient. You may be pleasantly surprised at the results.
To summarize, while the affair continues and after you've informed the affair partners spouse about the affair, you do "nothing" and GAL. Stick a lot more closely to Sandi's 37 rules and protect yourself emotionally and take care of yourself physically. But, if and when the affair ends, you've got to be ready and strategic about stoking and getting to "your mate becomes curious". With OM out of her life, there is a vacuum of time and energy she was otherwise spending on her affair available as an opportunity to demonstrate your changes (without chasing her or begging her or annoying her) and lead her back to the marriage and family. She's NOT going to hold up a sign saying "I'm curious about you and interested in re-engaging in a relationship with you"....instead, you've got to take the opportunity to fill the void, meet the needs of hers she'll let you meet, and strategically wiggle yourself back into a "relationship" with her. Recovery has to start somewhere and continuing to do nothing just proves to her that she was right about you not caring about her all along. So here are Sandi's 37 rules nuanced for Step 3 of the LRT.
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off! This is a necessary directive to almost every betrayed husband that wants to save their marriage. Nearly every betrayed husband's first reactions to discovering the affair is scrambling around trying to get their wife back by chasing them everywhere begging them to end their affair NOW and begging them for another chance, etc. Desperation is never advisable. It does make you appear weak and adds canon fodder for the wayward wife and other man to talk badly about you. You're also likely learning "reasoning" with a active wayward wife is pretty impossible. The woman you've loved isn't there. Her singular focus is now on OM so your "reason" and "logic" goes in one ear and out the other. She mostly be nicer if you enable her affair and harsher if you resist it. However, wayward spouses are not robots. They have good days and bad. They have moments of a little self-reflection and cracks in the facade. An affair is a very difficult relationship to maintain. It has absolutely no foundation underneath it. It is built upon lies and deceit. Distrust is rampant. Throughout the process there are times a nuanced betrayed husband CAN pursue and, to some extent reason (or, at least plant some logic seeds that may grow later) with their wayward wife. Women love to talk and a wayward wife might be available from time to time for some interesting in-depth discussions about things with their betrayed husband. See, their marriage, though rocky and they want out, is, at least REAL. It is/was built upon a foundation of love and trust at one time and has a real legitimate history behind it. It's not a pretend relationship. That MIGHT provide effective ways for a smart betrayed husband to kind of chisel his way into and, if nothing less, make the OM nervous about all the time his "girlfriend" is spending with her husband. OM knows you are the #1 threat to his relationship. Plus, woman (in general) seldom "pursue" their man. The occasional pursuit, even if you are shot down, communicates that you are fighting for them, care about them, love them and want them (without saying that specifically). You've just got to take being shot down confidentially in stride versus sulking, crying and begging. This is very hard to do in practice but once the affair is over and you are no longer dealing with a wife getting her needs met by the OM, she need to get her needs met somewhere and as long as you're trying to save your marriage might as well meet them as best you can.
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
This "say goodbye first" technique is straight out of the Pick Up Artist (PUA) Community. It's a pop-psychology strategy for attracting women in bars and other single scenes. It supposedly works like this. You give them focused attention for a bit, which they like and then be sure to cut them off first. Stop talking, hang up, walk away. Leave them missing you, hoping you'd continue talking with them versus getting bored or frustrated and feeling trapped in the 10th serious conversation of the night that you won't let them out of. It's not horrible advice because you probably have crap you need to get done and phone calls aren't nearly as productive as face to face contact. Don't keep texting them either except for good reason or to keep them engaged. You can't ever have a meaningful dialogue in text and some things can be used against you if you put it in writing -- in court or the court of public opinion. But don't cut the conversation short if your wife is spilling her guts out to you and trying to have an important conversation herself.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
I agree that handing a wayward wife books and marriage materials before you get to "no contact" is a waste of time and energy and makes you appear pretty weak and manipulative. However, letting her find or stumble upon pictures, a book or an article that she thinks YOU are looking at, reading and making notes within can be helpful and, hopefully, she'll look/read it because she'll want to know what (garbage, she'll think) you are filling your head with. Generally way wards avoid looking at things or reading things that don't support their wayward behavior because it makes them feel bad, ashamed, etc. They SHOULD BE ashamed it's just not effective for you to shame them directly. You just want to be careful not to lead her back here to your help source.
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
True. Don't "puppy dog" her but, to the extent you can, stick around her as much as you can. Idle time to a wayward wife is time to stew upon and think about her affair and affair partner. The more time you keep her busy talking or watching something or doing something the better. Marathon watch some new netflix series with her. Anything to distract from life. Waywards love escaping and IF you are getting "no contact" she's going to be in withdrawal for a few weeks or month(s). You don't want to talk to her seriously during this period for long because it'll be hurtful to you. Cut off conversations and try to either distract her or go have fun. If your marriage seems like it's going to end anyway, then you two can at least have some last moments of fun while you are ending it. Ask for a timeout or a break from all this seriousness, how about you -- let's just go for some beers as though we have no problems and if either of us gets negative they have to do a shot.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
I agree. Your wife can't envision being in love and having a loving marriage again with you ever so talking about the future doesn't help because it just makes her focus on the incomprehensible. She can't understand that her feelings could change back because she's so sure of her feelings. You don't have to teach her this...because living in the now is a better strategy of approaching recovery anyway. Just don't worry about trying to explain that her feelings might change and focus on "Let's have fun together today and do stuff together today and just do that for awhile". Waywards like kicking the can down the street and avoiding tough choices, so don't push choices she's not ready to make yet. You aren't going to talk her into having feelings.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
Yes ---> but only if and when you have "no contact". Otherwise, friends and family are needed desperately. But after "no contact", waywards have a difficult time adjusting back to reality and building your marriage is something done by spending as much alone time together as possible. Outsiders just need to be kept away, especially anyone that might give your wife a hard time. Since you cherish your wife it's now your job to protect her from the judgement of others. Her sins were against you and once she repents (and then and only then can you forgive) she's no longer wayward and you should see to it that no one treats her as such.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
Your wife and what she does with her vagina in no way defines you as a man. It's brave of you to stand up for your family and fight for her when conflict avoiding and enabling is what most men in your position would do. You are repentant and whole in God. You don't need anyone elses approval. You are enough and you are the perfect God given gift for your wife. After "no contact" she should be on the road back home to you so do not let her break your outward confidence, masculinity and self confidence. Do not look to her to give it to you. You will be OK no matter how this turns out. That's one reason to occassionally snoop, because then you don't need to hound her for promises and assurances of "no contact" you'll just know (but you've got to control any urges to constantly snoop because it can become overwhelming and hurtful to you). However, it's OK to express that her behavior has "DEVASTATED" you and change you to the core probably just like whatever you've done, probably did to her. You don't have to lie and act all happy about things because you might actually communicate you don't really care about her at all and, instead, you just want to win and keep her as a possession. You can be vulnerable but avoid the sappy and clingy and bounce out (see rules above) of it without torturing her.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
This is true but there are things you can suggest or buy that might entice them a bit sometimes. Your marriage could certainly use a fresh start in a new home across town from OM (if OM lives nearby) anyway so why not suggest undertaking some home projects to fix things up TOGETHER so you can put the house on the market next spring or summer and get a new better house??? Notice the emphasis on the word "together". Plus, you might spend some savings on a gift or something for her as an apology for not being a great gift giver before and promising to do better should she give your marriage a chance (recall, if you do end up divorced, she'll take half the cash anyway and blow it so might as well blow some now when it might help). Maybe a promise of a new wedding ring set or something if you renew your vows next year. Just check your expectations and don't be sappy or overly romantic doing it. She's not romantically in love with you right now so romantic gestures will get you eye rolls, remind her how much her feelings aren't there reciprocating your love and won't be attractive.
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
No "dates' but nights off to have fun during this difficult emotional times will FEEL like dates (hopefully, just don't make them out to be dates). Go to LOUD clubs/bars or LOUD concerts -- NOT the quiet corner booth of some romantic restaurant. You WANT to occupy her time and get out and about distracting her from idle moments.
10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
This is a difficult one. Betrayed wives can often naturally keep their newly former wayward husband's in line. Such wayward husbands are fighting to save their marriages. Wayward wives are different. They "recover" kicking and screaming, defiant and unremorsefull (initially). Wayward husband's will often volunteer accountability whereas wayward wives will not become transparent even if the affair really is over. In addition, a betrayed husband demanding accountability just comes off as insecure, lacking confidence on top of controlling (a typical wayward rationalization). Sometimes you need information to win the war for your wife and family just to confirm you have "no contact" but checking all the time and obsessively is unhealthy for you. I find that each betrayed spouse needs to determine this balance themselves. You need to be healthy yourself and over monitoring can be a problem as well. Once you have "no contact' you can back off mostly and just look for clues on occassion and if your gut tells you something is off ---- inspect what you expect". Also, do not get caught. It's bad for any custody/divorce filing should it go that way and it angers them and makes them feel controlled and manipulated. Once your marriage is priced, you should both feel ok with any consentual snooping of each other anytime because if you can't hold your spouse accountable for their behavior, who will?
11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
Agree. Unless you're hysterically bonding in early recovery having tons of intense sex but even then, they aint super in love with you yet so it's still something to say sparingly.
12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
You ARE going to be Ok. But there's a fine line between being aloof and being a complete uncaring tool acting like you hardly care anymore.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
Yup -- clean up -- shower often -- get some new clothes and new cologne. Your old smells probably annoy your wife now so new fragrances and new body wash will help
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say ñ get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
NOOOOOOO - this doesn't work well with wayward wives. Now don't sit around waiting for them all the time. Do keep busy. Going out some is fine but once you get what you believe is "no contact" and they are in withdrawal, you want to stick to them like glue (in a non-obstrussive manner). It's fairly easy because once the affair ends, they generally behaved like a depressed teenager and without the constant text messaging and face timing, they have tons of extra free time on their hands but little desire to leave the couch/house. Stick around for a bit and try, best you can, to occupy their time and just be around while not hounding them or forcing conversations. Just be around, picking up the slack while they actually grieve the end of their affair (I've done it - it's easier to say than to do - takes supernatural empathy that she'll hopefully recognize one day as the most extreme demonstration of cherishing her she's every going to receive). Too much idle time leads to them feeling further neglected and starving for attention. They will surely either reach out to OM or look for a surrogate (like another OM, or Facebook, or blogging, or wherever they can escape and get some of their needs met).
15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don't act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren't speaking, but don't be overly talkative.
Kind of. Listen more but be availabile to talk as much as she'll talk. Don't force conversations but tend to listen and listen some more with a NEUTRAL disposition because you will be OK either way, YOU understand what's going on and you are just trying to understand what she's thinking and help her with her life. You know what you want and what you need to do.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
Okay. But if they are seeing their affair partner, you shouldn't tolerate it by not saying anything and just allowing it without objection. That's simply enabling. Object but don't yell and scream. Don't punch walls. Request respect.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
The dream of every wayward wife is an amicable divorce with the two of you being good friends and co-parenting perfectly while she gets primary custody of the kids, the house and you get some visitation, at her convenience (maybe weekends so she can go out and party with OM?). This doesn't wake up the typical wayward wife. It's nice for the betrayed spouse to realize they will be OK with or without their wayward spouse, but the "make your partner think" is just obvious manipulation and dishonest. I think a man should behave more authentically versus acting likes he's OK with the situation, when clearly he is not. Besides most wayward wives will be thrilled you finally "got it" and are ready to "move on".
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
If you were a neglectful spouse, to whatever degree how will "pulling back" ever be noticed as a change or as something negative? Sure they may notice you aren't begging them anymore, but it's not like they liked "begging desperate" you much nor will they miss that guy. This just gives them a reprieve from feeling ashamed of themselves and a chance to avoid their conscience while you confirm your initial changes (desperate as they were, they did demonstrate care versus neglect) were just a short term manipulative act (just like all your promises in the past).
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
This is mostly fine but instead of faking such feelings, strive to actually become happy and content with whatever the final outcome is going to be. Being authentic is attractive whereas acting happy, then blowing up later when that feeling overcomes you or you become frustrated because you're ACT isn't seemingly having the desired effect (your wife is now gleeful you seemingly finally agree with her that the marriage is over)
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patience on your behalf.
Yes. While the affair continues there is no marriage really to speak of and the future is completely up in the air. But withdrawing wayward wives are often available to talk and talk and talk. Try to listen. Talk marriage but don't talk divorce and don't ever negotiate with a terrorist
21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
Dr. Bob refers to this as "charging neutral". Your wayward wife, especially while actively wayward but even for awhile thereafter while pursuing separation and divorce, will certainly attempt to bait you into fights and arguments. This makes her feel better. It alleviates her rising guilt and crushing conscience and/or shame. It feeds her constant need to regionalize and justify her continuing behavior. She wants you to fight her. To be mean. To show your "true colors". To prove your "changes" are just an act and, even were she to consider recovering, your anger would continually come out to punish her indefinitely. In the alternative, she could pick a fight, call the police and get a restraining order against you giving her a big leg up in the divorce/custody fight to come.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
So would strict over enthusiastic adherence to many of the above "rules". You are God's perfect gift for your wife. You are enough. Go back to being more you rather than the begging desperate loser after discovery of her affair and rather than the disappearing guy acting like he doesn't much give a crap if she divorces him.
23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
sure. But in all my reading about affairs and infidelity at that time allowed me to actually know how my wife felt at that time. There was no argument. She thought she loved OM and didn't love me. Just got to be confident within yourself that her feelings can and will change and, if they don't, you'll be better off divorced from her anyway. Debating feelings is pointless because they will constantly change anyway.
24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
Patience is important. Understanding recovery and clearing out the stinking wayward thinking takes a lot of time. A depressed wayward wife isn't going to be "drawn" to much of anything so while you "give them space and time" that doesn't equate to disappearing and leaving them alone in their idle corrupt thoughts. Hang around. Pick up the slack at home and give the "space and time" by not hounding them with "we need to talk about us". It's also not very healthy to give "space and time" indefinitely. Eventually, there needs to be a "recovery" of the marital "RELATIONSHIP". A relationship is reciprocal and not entirely about the feelings, needs and wants of the formerly wayward wife.
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).
Of course. Just as your porn use and neglect wasn't an intentional act of hatred and contempt towards your wife, her affair, though a hugely devastating behavior, wasn't done "at you". You can get mad all you want but ultimately her repentance and remorse is a lot more likely to happen if you express empathy, love and understanding. Your wife had an affair because she lacked proper boundaries and allowed another man to inappropriately meet and continue to meet her emotional needs. The circumstance of your marriage made her more vulnerable to such behavior but ultimately she alone made the choice to cheat and needs to apologize and make amends for doing so. Repenting, remorse and making amends is her side of the street that you aren't in charge of. That's between her and God (her "higher power" lol) . Getting angry doesn't move you along the path of reconciliation at all.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
yes.
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
Include her if she wants. Women buy many many more self-help books then men which is an indication they, generally, don't mind them. If she'll engage, engage her. Don't teach her but discuss whatever you are reading and listening to with an open mind. Even if her opinions about certain subjects is harsh, silly or downright offensive - at least she's sharing an opinion with you and talking with you. Conversations are good. Arguments and lectures - not so much.
29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
Avoid writing your feelings down thinking you can express yourself more clearly by doing so. You are understandably an emotional basket case right now so emotional letters, emails, texts of anger, joy, hurt, love, whatever will just make you appear too feminine and wimpy. Over sentimentality is a mistake.
30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
Sure. But this doesn't mean you can never express devastation. I've witnessed many recent wayward wives, including my own, express a need to see their husband cry. They want confirmation that your attentiveness and new found love for them is real and not just some controlling manipulative act to get them back in line and under your thumb/control (where you'll just neglect them again). I find that within the concept of "charging neutral" you can and should express, very occasionally, how absolutely devastated you felt/feel by her affair and betrayal without being desperate and needy while saying it. A real man can cry and express emotion without being a pathetic loser. Maybe not daily or even weekly but being completely stoic isn't authentic and a real man is nothing if he's not authentic (or strategic - game theory)
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
Yeah, sure...waywards are self consumed anyway so this shouldn't be hard to do. But, even if things seem to get better for her, it's important to not completely rugsweep your feelings and needs too. I didn't recover my marriage just to make my wife happy or just "for the kids", I eventually had to stand up for myself and demand an awesome marriage for me too.
32. Do not believe anything they say and 50% of what they do. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
"hurting and scared"? really? Was this added by Sandi or was this part of MWD original concepts? I find active wayward wives speak in absolute negatives because it's easier to be negative and dismiss/rationalize their marital relationship away than to change their selfish entitled wayward cheating behavior. They remain negative after the affair because they have convinced themselves, necessarily, that OM is/was their soulmate and their husband is not, never was and never will be their soulmate. After OM dumps them (as is often the case when OM's wife finds out about the affair) she may be hurting and scared about her future and considering recovery seems scary but she's not "hurting" as much as she's mad. Mad at OM. Mad at Husband (if he'd been doing his job she never would have NEEDED to cheat in the first place). If she's "hurting" at all - it's about the losing the affair fantasy. If "no contact" sticks, that should only last a couple weeks.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
I think it's healthy to set goals and a time limit on this up front. There's only so long a human male can endure trying to save their marriage without expectation or results. A deadline (3 months, 1 year, 2 years) helps motivate a betrayed husband because even if it's a long way off, there is a finish line. Kind of an individual thing. Adultery is a biblical out. A betrayed husband doesn't have to stick around 1 day after discovery. Your time spend trying to save your wife is a gift. Consider wisely how much you want to spend of yourself on such gift.
34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
If you are doing it right, this won't be a problem because who you are as a person, man, husband, father, etc. doesn't require her to notice or need affirmation and she'll notice all on her own.
35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
Unless you've been neglectful and she seems to like your attentiveness and fun communications. Your supposed to communicate with your wife regularly. Don't hound her for attention but just text/email like a normal person.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
Unless your wife is willing to go with you, then loud bars and other venues are great because it allows you to have fun versus the constant pressure and need to "have a serious relationship talk". Wayward wives like to escape so sometimes being the lighthouse and guiding your lost wayward wife back home involves heading out into the ocean with her and getting lost in a fun night together.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes
Yup. What you do becomes who you are. Old habits are hard to break. It's very easy to backslide, get dismayed and frustrated especially if you allow your expectations to get out of control. In almost every situation there are good nights and bad. It's hard to be even keeled and check yourself after a great night together talking or whatever, but, as is so often the case, your wife BELIEVES that her feelings are never going to come back for you so she'll be horrible to you the next day just to put her reality back in place. Change and be authentic for you, because no matter what - your life is changing.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
How do you follow these rules if she doesn't know you know she's having an affair? I have finally got evidence after a few months of speculation, read these rules and implemented the no more Mr nice guy routine. And I see it's having effect on her. But now I'm stuck: do I keep this up or do I confront her about the fact I know she's having an affair? If I confront her how do I go about it??? Help!
If you could take a look at my sitch in Wife want to leave marriage 3 thread. I would very much appreciate it. DB at this point is just making me passive, which is turning into anger on my part.
Was wondering if someone could clear something up for me...
It's mentioned on these boards that the BS needs to detach to aid in the possible recovery of their WW's A BUT for R of their M to happen the WW needs to go NC with his/her AP! Surely If detachment is required for the WW to get over her AP then us BS detaching from them would have the same affect..!
Is detaching from our WS meant to help us "get over" our W/H OR does it help in the recovery? I just can't see where on one hand we need to detach to help in recovery when we then state that the WS needs to go NC with the AP. Detachment must have the same affect both ways...
DR'ing started March 2017
Don't blow the last bridge up from fantasy island, act "as if".
Was wondering if someone could clear something up for me...
It's mentioned on these boards that the BS needs to detach to aid in the possible recovery of their WW's A BUT for R of their M to happen the WW needs to go NC with his/her AP! Surely If detachment is required for the WW to get over her AP then us BS detaching from them would have the same affect..!
Is detaching from our WS meant to help us "get over" our W/H OR does it help in the recovery? I just can't see where on one hand we need to detach to help in recovery when we then state that the WS needs to go NC with the AP. Detachment must have the same affect both ways...
Detachment serves a two fold purpose.
It is mostly for us as it seperates us from the MLC/WAS and their crazy antics. It takes us off of the rollercoaster where we are adding fuel to their drama and enabling it to continue.
It also seperates the WAS from us and lets them eventually figure out that we were not the cause of their PAIN, maybe at that point they will look within and figure out what they need to do to fix their issues and not continue to run away from them.
As far as the relationship between the WAS and the affair partner, that can not continue if you are going to have a new relationship with your spouse.
Thank you so much. These surely help. Personally I am struggling because i was the one who would always inittate a conversation.
M 11 Dated for 4 years before then Me 35 H 39 D 10 BD Feb 2016 A 2015 Dec I was never in a R with the OM. Had a one night stand & I stopped contact immediately I confessed the A to H and we went for MC
I passed them into an excel file and made myself a daily assessment chart. I put in a check when I nailed it that day and a circle when I dont. The size of the circle is an indication of how far off the mark I am. It gives me a sense of how I'm doing
BD Sept 9 2017 Age 54 H53 m 18 years 4 kids blended and adopted all grown OW still on scene
15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her.)
Can I start the conversation first and talk about fun stuffs when my daughter is around on the weekend? My daughter is starting to guess about what happen to me and my wife.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only SHOW your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. Again, Can I include my wife in the activities when doing things with my daughter? Or I can just show her how happy I am with my daughter?
Thank you.
H43/W43/OM52 M15 w/D14 Live & work together/ OM oversea. EA: Feb,17 PA: Apr,17 (10days/Apr,3wks/Jul,twice a wk/Sep,3days/Feb18) OM away, WW ended A/ wants reconcile, Me being pursued.
I'm brand new & I can see I really need Sandi already because I have broken every single rule. And several times each. Except occasionally pulling off # 19. Oh Geez!
Originally 34 rules also known as DB rules, from MWD, Sandi would post these as Sandi's list.
2. ...Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
Sandi,
Thanks for the list! I have been trying to stick to all of the items as much as possible. Do you have any tips for how to end conversations first, but in a loving way? I go into a bit more detail in my latest post, but could use any advice that you could give. Thank you!!
Reading for a while but just approved to post today. Plan to share my story later today but looking for advice now related to Sandi’s rules. Any advice for avoiding the R talk with wife when you are sure she is planning to bring it up..? And it likely isn’t good? I’m trying to buy time so I don’t want to get involved in a R talk that will likely go south. Thanks
Edit - Walk out of the room if you don't want to talk. - Cadet
