Trying to Follow DB & DR

[25yearsmlc]

I am trying to be as objective as possible about your choice to Not have a monogamous marriage and yet see your wife as somehow "wayward" b/c she no longer wants you as a partner, and yet to insert my "female" point of view in the belief, perhaps mistaken, that it might help you.

So take it with a grain of well intentioned "salt", okay?

I never asked her to do anything that was demeaning.

I guess I have to spell it out explicitly...she said that she has had sex with the male half of a couple when I was interested in the female, although she didn't want to be with the guy. She never told me she didn't want to be with anyone in particular and even when I asked her for names she has never come up with them for me.

But it was you steering the interactions and she could be alone, watch, or participate?

I initially had the idea and she was reluctant for a long time. She eventually wanted to try and she made the first moves to get us into the scene.


I'd probably modify the wording here^^ to "she eventually agreed to try" and NOT that she "wanted" to. Yes she decided to aim it to as safe a place as she could, once she surrendered to it, but that's not really her "wanting" it, In my opinion.

As a wife, I'd have received the choice to open the marriage as your rejection of me AND OR as your dissatisfaction with me as a sexual partner. I could not have felt very desired by you if other women held your interest so much.

And having you see me with other men and NOT get jealous would have been a deeper blow to me. Sorry but that is how I see it. Even if it was subconscious, it would have eaten at my self image, a lot. And that's a huge turn off.



As far as change I know its definitely a change from what I had been doing. I could just "give up" and continue to live mostly like I had been before. Instead of cooking for myself and cleaning up the house and after myself I could just be hitting up fast food and minimizing any effort I'd have to put forth around the house, but I'm not.

Does eating fast food and not cleaning up after yourself sound like an adult life style or one that appeals to you, really? B/c if it does, then where is the "authentic change" you speak of? I'm being sincere.

I am changing how I've been doing things around the house. I am trying to keep things neat, organized, and clean. It started by maintaining a set schedule but now I'm letting that schedule relax a bit and trying to keep things going as they crop up.

How do you feel about these^^^ actions? Are they who you aspire to be, or are they tactics to help you feign improvement?

This is the time to DIG DEEP b/c the real journey in life is an inward one.


GAL: I did go to the Japanese group today. That was lots of fun. I was able to meet a lot of new people and make some new friends.

IMO, you cannot detach without GAL and GAL is much more effective when it involves meeting new people.
Just "not obsessing" is a step forward. Then filling the moments with other positive interactions or beliefs or thinking/feelings, is another.

Keep it up and keep posting.

[MrBond]

Still here?

[Miman2]

Yup still here. Just needed to try and digest everything that's been posted and find a time to get to respond. I'll try to do without all the quoting, people trying to catch up on the sitch will just have to forgive me.

Thank you, 25yearsmlc, for your input. No offense taken.

I'll put up some ****** for people who'd rather skip the swinging talk.

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Don't know how much I should get into it but...

I do agree with you 25yearsmlc, when I first brought it up to her she said it broke her heart. Why would I want to be with anyone else. I don't have a good answer other than I thought it would help our sex life because she didn't have any fantasies. We talked about it for a long time, she kept saying she couldn't picture herself even touching another guy. Then one time while I was out of town for another conference she went out with some friends of hers from school and she wound up dancing with some guy all night. She said they didn't have sex, but in her mind she said she had wanted to. That's when she decided we could try out the lifestyle.

When we our first swing club I didn't pressure the W. We didn't have a whole lot going on between us and other people. In fact our first visit some guy tried chatting us up and he was telling us that we "HAD to do SOMETHING" because it was our first visit. Totally turned her off and she hated that creep from then on. We found though that we liked the other people who did talk to us and found them in our fantasies after that, and the sex became amazing. The W did eventually find a single male she liked and thought she wanted to try being with him. I didn't much care for him (skeezy, dirty, and thuggish) and kept having to remind her we were supposed to be doing this together and that we needed to find a couple.

Turns out she couldn't get him out of her head, one weekend I was out of town for a conference and she went to the club we would visit and "got together" with the guy. After she told me it was a huge turn on and when I got back we went at it like rabbits. After that we turned to looking for couples.

The truth of the lifestyle is the women have all the power. It's ultimately up to them on whether or not anything happens between couples. Usually the guys can only really "suggest" people and see how their W's respond. After a couple of years of going to parties/clubs my W started saying to me to just find someone I was interested in and she didn't care who the guy was. I never did that and we certainly didn't do anything with anyone during that time.
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As far as change I know its definitely a change from what I had been
doing. I could just "give up" and continue to live mostly like I had
been before. Instead of cooking for myself and cleaning up the house and
after myself I could just be hitting up fast food and minimizing any
effort I'd have to put forth around the house, but I'm not.

Does eating fast food and not cleaning up after yourself sound like an
adult life style or one that appeals to you, really? B/c if it does,
then where is the "authentic change" you speak of? I'm being sincere.

I was trying to say that I was changing because instead of hitting up fast food and not bothering with maintain the house (like someone in a depressed state might, or kinda similar to how I was before) I am behaving like a responsible adult. As far as I can tell at least. :P

I am changing how I've been doing things around the house. I am trying
to keep things neat, organized, and clean. It started by maintaining a
set schedule but now I'm letting that schedule relax a bit and trying to
keep things going as they crop up.

How do you feel about these^^^ actions? Are they who you aspire to be,
or are they tactics to help you feign improvement?

My IC had recently asked who I had hoped to become when I mentioned that I was using this time to become more like the guy I was before my W was ever in the picture. At the time I was 19, a junior in college, had been out of the house and on my own for 3 years. Although I had to move back in with the parents for schooling and financial reasons I was largely independent. I had my own social life and took care of things both in my schooling and home life. I was lonely though, I never really dated. There were girls that I might have gone out with once or twice but nothing seriously long term. No one seemed to be a great match. When I found the W we meshed so well I guess I kind of turned her in to my life, because I was happy to not be so lonely anymore. I think she did the same.

This time to grow is nice because I do have the opportunity to become the independent person I once was, but the loneliness has set in again. Going out with others is nice because it does allow me to meet new people and make new friends, but then when the night ends I have to go back to the cats... it just reminds me of how lonely I once was, how lonely I am, and how I never want to be that lonely again.

I have my moments where I'm content to be alone with myself but it quickly fades. I keep telling myself I'll be okay with or without her and when I've been talking to the new people I've been meeting it genuinely feels that way. But in the quiet moments in-between, when the loneliness sets in... I know I'll be okay with or without her. I know in my head that one day I'll have happiness again. But in those moments...I think there was an episode of House where he said something along the lines of "I'm fine, I'm just not happy." and that's exactly where I feel I am.

I guess I had asked about the authentic interactions because I just want to see her again.

We don't even need to talk about the future or the past. I just want to hear her voice, not in anger but in just calm tones talking about whatever.

I tell myself that's about as an authentic interaction I can get right now, but I worry it's too clingy and will be a turn off to her. Too much of the old me. When we first got together we told each other how much we meant to each other. She even went so far as to say that if I ever left her or died before her she couldn't see her self as wanting to continue on living. I never said anything along those lines, but we professed how we would each be nothing without the other person in our life (codependent much?).

Which means to me that at this point meeting with her probably is not a good idea. Because even though I authentically just want to see her just to see her, without invoking any strategy to "winning" her back, seeing her would just be sating a deep seeded need to feel whole and complete again in her presence...

[Miman2]

OMG talking with the parents about my situation has been rough lately.

I try to explain how I'm feeling or what I'm doing and their only reply seems to be "uh huh" with nothing else behind it... -.-

It kind of puts the whole validation thing into perspective for me, every time I hear that "uh huh", I cringe and feel like my feelings aren't important or that they even matter to them.

I know they care and they want to help, but they keep brining up things that only start my hurting again.

Like yesterday my mom was bringing up the fact that the W and I don't have kids yet and how "if that's your decision then that's fine by me". She kept bringing it up even though I asked her to stop. Finally I broke down crying telling her to stop and how that topic doesn't even need to be discussed right now because it's not even an option to discuss. She then broke down saying how all she ever says is the wrong things. I had to then take over as the compassionate one in the conversation and try to get on to other topics.

It makes me think they've gotten to the point where they might feel like they don't know what else to say, and only reply with "uh huh". It's frustrating because I feel that I can only get my validation here, in IC, and occasionally a friend will be in the right mindset to validate me.

I feel truly sorry to my W. When she had things she felt like she wanted to talk about, I often replied with the "uh huh" and didn't validate her.

[Mozza]

I'm very sorry to hear about the difficult communication with your parents. It can be very hurtful, in part because we expect so much validation from them throughout our lives. We live for it when we're kids. As a parent, I'm more mindful now to look at my kids in the eyes when they talk to me and I can see what a great impact it has on them.

It came up in IC that I had similar abandonment issues with my parents because there were signs in the past that they didn't care much about me. We haven't dug much further, but I mention it to you because it might lie at the root of other issues that you have. Bring up this experience when you meet your IC.

I'm blessed that my parents can listen to me for hours and I'm amazed that they always have something good to say. But they are known conversationalists with lots of empathy. People drop at their place unannounced just for a chat or a meal. I mention this to say that it's also a question of personality. It's not about you.

I feel truly sorry to my W. When she had things she felt like she wanted to talk about, I often replied with the "uh huh" and didn't validate her.

What an insight. I hope you realize how important that is. For years, you went with your life without realizing this. You're now questioning your "default settings".

[Miman2]

I got to see it before it was removed. Thanks for finding that for me again. I remember seeing it years ago, oddly enough I think it was because someone else who was going through a divorce has posted it.

[MrBond]

Did they know about your swinging lifestyle?

[Miman2]

They do now. I told them when right before I went to IC with this current therapist. This would've been 1 week after BD.

On another note, she called tonight.

She asked if I got her text, I told her I didn't (because I really didn't).

She said she wanted to try to get together tonight to talk, I told her I couldn't tonight (because of my GAL activities).

She asked if we could meet tomorrow to talk. I said sure, offered to meet her somewhere other than the apt, she said where ever was fine, maybe we could even go to dinner.

I told her she could pick the place and how I was thinking of asking her to lunch or dinner. Again she said where ever I wanted.

She asked if I wasn't going to be there tonight would it be okay if she came by and saw the cats. I told her sure.

I offered to let her know when I was on my way back in case she didn't want to be in the apt with me, she said she was fine being in the apt with me. I mentioned the time she took the charger and said I figured she didn't want to see me because of that. She said that it was okay.

I mentioned how one of her favorite restaurants had a section set up at work today, so I was able to have that for lunch.

I reconfirmed tomorrow after work dinner, she said yes. I told her okay, talk to you later then, bye and hung up.

So we're supposed to meet for dinner tomorrow after work.

ADVICE TEAM ACTIVATE!!!!!!!!!

Calm, cool, collected.
Be loving but not overly excited.
No expectations!
Keep it upbeat, lighthearted, let her talk about the R first.
Don't talk about my changes (what if she asks for specifics??).
Be ready to be the first one to leave.

What else?! Any other advice?

[Miman2]

To be continued...