Enjoying the ride

[SunnyB]

Oh, and if consequences would help her face reality, I don't like the idea of my family pretending what she's done doesn't impact her standing. It may be good for her to realize it IS a big deal. Whether that is for R, or for her own personal growth.

Those are my arguments for not sharing this holiday. Where it gets tricky is how to handle things if my family doesn't agree. Do I have a right to ask them to end their R's with her? Do I have a right to share why (when I have respected the privacy of her decisions until now)? Do I have a right to exclude my presence if my boundaries aren't respected in not having her present? Or do I need to just suck it up? And is that really what's best?

Zues, I see it pretty much the same way as Calibri. You don't get to decide who your family is friends with. You can only decide how you want to behave.

When I was growing up, my mom's side of the family was always feuding. At various times, we didn't see any given aunt, uncle, cousin, and I never really knew why. I just knew I liked that aunt and we used to go see her a lot, and now we don't and I miss her. As an adult, I decided that whatever was between my mom and said aunt was their business, not mine, and I went to see her on my own.

And, it's also not your job to teach W a lesson. Life will do that. I'm not saying shield her from natural consequences, I'm just saying don't make it your mission to punish her.

If she's invited, do your best to be polite. I like the suggestion of giving the family a heads up that your relationship is contentious at the moment and you might need to briefly step out to collect yourself. And as a bright spot, know that next year will likely be less angst-filled, no matter what happens in between.

I invited H to Easter dinner this year. We didn't "discuss" it, I simply issued an invitation as if he were a family friend. He accepted.

[Zues126]

You're right. I can't control my STBX, my family, etc. I do control me.

If she's there I will survive. I didn't think so yesterday...the thought nearly made me physically ill. But I can accept it. This isn't just divorce. This is life. I'm not a kid anymore. The days when a family get together was a safe and fun place where everyone got along are behind me. That illusion is over. There will be people there that I don't want any part of, that's how it goes. I still think it is unfair that she can divorce me and keep my family, but nothing about divorce is fair or right. At some point it doesn't make any difference. As rppfl said, eventually there will be an end to it all.

And you're right. My family can choose to be friends with her. However I do decide who I want to be close with. I know that many of my family will maintain a "coworker" relationship with her for the sake of being included with kids updates from her side, etc.

Those that want to remain closer than that I don't plan on being close to myself. As I've said I feel D equates to murder. If someone in my family wanted to hang out with a murderer I wouldn't feel safe around them either. Again, that doesn't mean I will never talk to them again. I can be polity. But I get to pick who I'm friends with as well.

You all may say I've got serious problems for feeling this way. That's fine. I'm doing my best. Maybe someday I can do more than be polite. Right now this is what I can do.

[claire7]

Zeus... it is much better for your kids that they don't view or treat her as evil, isn't it?

Walk with dignity. Be someone only a fool would leave. If she is a fool, so be it.

[SunnyB]

I don't think you have a serious problem. I think you are doing the best you can at the moment. Things will change. They will. And you seem to have a good grasp that you can change yourself but not others. Good job.

Did you used to take part in W's Easter celebration? What are you doing this weekend? Are you going to have stressful weekends back to back?

[Zues126]

Thanks Rppfl. That shows some faith in me.

(EDITED TO ADD- thanks Claire! This wasn't meant to be argumentative or defensive- I was AGREEING with your point. Appreciate the reminder!) I haven't said one bad word about my STBX. My children have brought up their mom many times in many contexts and I have ALWAYS reiterated her love for them. I can still do better at handoffs, but I am working on that as I mentioned.

I don't think she's evil. We're all human. Trust me, I haven't lost sight of my issues. I consider this whole exchange one of them, it's way more about me than her. So it's not about her being "bad". I'm having a hard time finding the words. It's like I can accept her decision and forgive her for giving up and being human. But I don't want to let go of how much I value M either. So sometimes I feel like I'm holding on to my judgment, then I start letting it go and I feel like I'm also letting go of my values and how much I cherish commitment and loyalty and M. Sometimes it can be hard to both forgive her while still having my own values. I feel like if I accept this then I'm disrespecting my beliefs...kind of. Can you help me sort through this?

Bottom line there are a lot of powerful emotions doing battle. Right now what I can control immediately is my behavior, so I'll start there. I trust I can sort through emotions in time. But I'll always be a little different in some ways.

And no, I will not be seeing her family again. I tried but could never get close to any of them. I could get along, but there was no warmth. My family, however, is a truly special one and I can understand why she wouldn't want to give them up.

[claire7]

I don't think she's evil. We're all human. Trust me, I haven't lost sight of my issues. I consider this whole exchange one of them, it's way more about me than her. So it's not about her being "bad". I'm having a hard time finding the words. It's like I can accept her decision and forgive her for giving up and being human. But I don't want to let go of how much I value M either. So sometimes I feel like I'm holding on to my judgment, then I start letting it go and I feel like I'm also letting go of my values and how much I cherish commitment and loyalty and M. Sometimes it can be hard to both forgive her while still having my own values. I feel like if I accept this then I'm disrespecting my beliefs...kind of. Can you help me sort through this?

Zeus,

I totally hear you. Letting go has been so hard for me because it makes me feel like I'm somehow ok with how this has turned out. Lately, though, my thoughts have shifted. I can't control it. I just can't. I can only control me. Letting him go, and letting go of my anger, doesn't mean I am letting go of my values.

And, you may not be in the same situation, but the more I think about things, the more I realize that there was a lot that was missing for me in our R from the start. While I would never have chosen divorce, and while I am committed to changing myself for the better, I can't control whether he is willing or able to change. And I don't think it would be good for me to be in a R with him unless he was able to change, too... and I'm not sure that's possible.

Lately, I've found myself saying things like, "I think this is actually for the best for me, too." I never ever ever thought I would feel something like that. I say it with a very heavy and sad heart.

Again, I don't know your situation or your feelings enough to know how this compares to your situation. But however your feelings towards your M, it is what it is, and you can work to become the best man and dad (and friend, brother, human being) that you can...even if you are not your W's H. And how would that man treat his children's mother? Even if his heart and pride were hurting?

It's so hard, but so worth it.

[25yearsmlc]

Obviously this is just MY opinion as I cannot recall anything in the DB or DR books about it. Before I comment below, let me say that for the most part you sound a lot healthier and less angry. So I found the post about Easter surprising actually. I mean you just spoke of forgiveness and in my belief system,

Easter is about Forgiveness, and of course another theme is resurrection...which is something I think your heart still wishes would happen to your marriage and family, eh?

So here we go-

What is appropriate vs. inappropriate in terms of me setting boundaries with my family?

Easter is coming up. My uncle who normally hosts Easter was only recently informed about our separation. I believe he only heard about it from STBX, so I have no idea what his view of the situation is. STBX may be wanting/expecting to come for a visit with my family on Easter.

I don't want her at my family get together. Is it unreasonable to ask my uncle not to invite her (since he can't mindread and has no idea how amicable or non-amicable the situation is)? Is it ok for me to share what why I don't want her there, or is it better to just tell him we're going through a low trust divorce and it wouldn't be ideal?

Personally I feel my STBX doesn't deserve to be part of my family anymore

this^^ is ALL about your judgement of her. (And it's about a religious holiday!)


and I'd feel a bit disappointed and betrayed by any family members


Biologically she was and always will be a member of your family -- as the mother of your children she is also the mother of nieces/nephews, grandchildren and cousins.

And Zeus, for better or worse, divorce is NOT seen as "murder" in this culture or most of the world. Most see it as the end of a marriage...and to some, an improvement in their family life. Hard as that is to accept; it's reality for OTHERS and does not have to be yours...but then, is holding onto your self righteous anger having a healthy boundary or letting you wounded pride dictate?

(Sometimes it's a fine and blurry shifting line between those)...


I'm still very close to a former SIL and maybe it'd be different if she had divorced my brother rather than the other way around, but still I KNOW my attitude helps my niece. (Sure, it also makes it easier on my idiot brother, but so what? My goal was
never to punish HIM) and to me, you seem angry that not everyone wants to hurt her back, like she hurt you.

I'm from a large family & the other divorced former partners are each held in different views and I have different relationships with them. But I'm civil with all of them and

I expect to see them at family gatherings if there were children.

(BTW, for me, it's much easier to let go of someone who wronged a sibling, if there are no children.)

But putting the kids first is a great guide to use when in doubt.

Besides, you are overlooking the reality that IF she does attend, the thought of what she will eventually be giving up, will be right in her face. I'd welcome her coming if I were you. The happier and merrier, the better! How can she feel anything but regret or loss??

that overlooked the decisions she has made...however, what I feel isn't always healthy and mature.

What are your thoughts? Have you had family that continued to remain close with WWs?

I don't see their invite AT ALL as them "overlooking" her decisions.

Plus you are in effect declaring yourself innocent and your w as THE cause of the divorce - when in the past you had more self awareness of how you had been as a h and it was not without flaw.
Yes SHE sought the divorce and YES your sister overstepped her role...

but might you be projecting your hurt feelings towards your sister, now, onto the whole family?

The uncle JUST learned of a separation, so there's no way that Uninviting your wife is anything but a family member turning his back on her.

How does alienating your w, help your children?

[Zues126]

Thank you 25. I missed your posts but know that I've been on my own journey and you have been very active with the new folks as well. I still read everything you write that I am aware of.

Divorce is complicated and hard. I find myself in spots I don't know how to handle. This was one of them.

I've thought a lot about religion and laws lately. It seems to me the whole point is that feelings aren't always a good way to steer your life, because they can be selfish, and come from dark places inside of us. What appeals to me is having a set of beliefs that we conform to out of faith, and then looking at the dark feelings inside of us as feedback from the universe that we are looking at things from the wrong perspective.

There is no question I have many powerful and conflicting emotions. That hasn't changed. What has is that I know better than to always let my emotions call the shots. I can listen to what they have to say, hold them against my beliefs, maybe get a professional opinion from an IC when appropriate, then make bold decisions.

This conversation has played that role. 48 hours ago it didn't occur to me that my STBX would be at Easter. It didn't occur to me that my family might not react the way I would expect them to, or that they'd view things totally differently than I would. I'm not sure I've sorted through everything, but I'm prepared to go and put my best foot forward, and be forgiving to not just her but to those who inadvertently awaken some tough feelings in me.

And yes, I haven't forgotten my role in the failure of the M. In the past I didn't do ANY of this type of thing. I only retreated into a protective shell, detached, and turned my effort into work and pool. I thought it was my STBX's job to somehow bridge the gap between us. I was wrong.

My 180 is to not retreat into a shell, to follow my beliefs even when I don't like the way I feel, and to sort through the faulty perspectives that lead to those feelings. Not pretending to have that one figured out. Maybe a 180 is too strong. Maybe I can call it a 60 Baby steps...

Thanks all!

[claire7]

Zeus, I want to tell you that you are one of the men who give me hope that men can change, too. I don't know many (any?) men IRL who are self-reflective. But clearly they do exist somewhere out there.
Thanks.

[SunnyB]

I can accept her decision and forgive her for giving up and being human. But I don't want to let go of how much I value M either. So sometimes I feel like I'm holding on to my judgment, then I start letting it go and I feel like I'm also letting go of my values and how much I cherish commitment and loyalty and M. Sometimes it can be hard to both forgive her while still having my own values. I feel like if I accept this then I'm disrespecting my beliefs...kind of. Can you help me sort through this?

Is it possible that you could separate W from the concept of M? I know that seems like a radical idea, but bear with me. If you read my first bazillion threads, you'll hear me wailing about my children. I don't want to tell them, S and godforbid D will be terrible for them, how could he do this to them, how could we have such pleasant weekends with the kids and he still wants to leave? Now I've moved on to moaning about how I want someone to support me, walk beside me, parent with me, grow old with me. Do you see what's missing, Zues? I'm not mentioning anything that's actually about my H. I am very firmly committed to the idea of M, fiercely loyal, desperately want to love and cherish and grow old with someone. I'm not saying it has to be H. Do you see the difference? Could you possibly expore that a bit from your own perspective? Letting go of W doesn't mean you don't have values, doesn't mean you don't cherish commitment, doesn't mean you aren't loyal to the core, doesn't mean you don't believe in M. It just means you are letting go of a woman determined to be let go of. Think about that.