Trying to Follow DB & DR

[MrBond]

"I didn't do the one chore in the house that I was asked to do."
Has this changed?

"Didn't clean up after myself in and around the house."
Has this changed?

"Complained about the R between the W, OC and I."

What did she not like about it?

"The W stated I made her do things she didn't want to do in the past and now it was my turn."
Like what?

"Used back pain as an excuse to get out of things."
Like what?

"Constantly wanted reassurance that she loved me either vocally or by touch."
These are just your insecurities.

"Convinced her we were better off staying home during weekends playing video games instead of heading out and blowing all our money."

This comment of "blowing all of our money" shows contempt towards her. You didn't want to spend the money or go out and do something that maybe didn't cost that much or nothing. Would you have rather spent the money now or live the way you do now?

"Convinced her she was better off not spending money on salon and nail visits and that she could get just as good results at home if she did things her self. (Again a money/control issue)"

Yes.

"Basically allowed her to wait on me hand and foot and not really ever allowed her a break or show her any appreciation."

Really?

"Little by little over holidays/birthdays she would claim she didn't want anything so I would only get her flowers, take her to dinner, instead of getting her something."

Plus you probably thought that getting her something would be a waste of money.

"She kept asking for a diamond anniversary ring, I kept telling her she had to wait until the correct year.

Same here about the money.

"Didn't suggest anything in the way of a vacation or a reward for her to spend the money she's earned and take some time off of work.
Meanwhile I would take frequent "work from home days"."

Again, probably didn't want to spend the money.

[Miman2]

"I didn't do the one chore in the house that I was asked to do."
Has this changed?

"Didn't clean up after myself in and around the house."
Has this changed?

Naturally. I'm left with the place all to my self. I want to take care of my household. But this again brings up my dilemma of is this a change or merely self-preservation? I supposed I could argue that it is a change because I could just let things go in the place.

"Complained about the R between the W, OC and I."

What did she not like about it?

"The W stated I made her do things she didn't want to do in the past and now it was my turn."
Like what?

That should've read that "I complained about the R".
Because I felt my W being more emotionally distant.
One of the last things she said was she did things(people) in the swinging lifestyle that she didn't want to do. She never really expressed that to me, or if she did I didn't realize it.
Since I was stating that I didn't want to go see the OC occasionally she brought up the "I've done things I didn't want to, so now it's your turn"

"Used back pain as an excuse to get out of things."
Like what?

Chores mostly. Helping with the laundry, doing dishes, cleaning. Occasionally other things like working out, going out (especially to see the OC)

"Constantly wanted reassurance that she loved me either vocally or by touch."
These are just your insecurities.

"Convinced her we were better off staying home during weekends playing video games instead of heading out and blowing all our money."

This comment of "blowing all of our money" shows contempt towards her. You didn't want to spend the money or go out and do something that maybe didn't cost that much or nothing. Would you have rather spent the money now or live the way you do now?

When we first moved here we were living off of less than 20k a year. But somehow we never went broke. Now with us both making money (we made 5x as much last year, but we don't have much to show for it) we'd have close calls in months where we allowed ourselves to spend without regard. I didn't like getting that close to having nothing left over, so I tried to get us to curb the spending back. Looking back should we have allowed ourselves to spend so we didn't get to this point? Yeah, probably.

"Convinced her she was better off not spending money on salon and nail visits and that she could get just as good results at home if she did things her self. (Again a money/control issue)"

Yes.

"Basically allowed her to wait on me hand and foot and not really ever allowed her a break or show her any appreciation."

Really?

Yes. I was a bad husband. She did all the chores while I played video games and did very little to help her.

"Little by little over holidays/birthdays she would claim she didn't want anything so I would only get her flowers, take her to dinner, instead of getting her something."

Plus you probably thought that getting her something would be a waste of money.

You actually got that one wrong. For birthdays and Christmas I have no problem spending money on her. Year before last I bought her a $600 diamond necklace, she thought it was too much and asked to take it back and she picked out something cheaper ($200). She said she didn't feel comfortable having something worth that much around her all the time, like someone would steal it. Christmas I usually spend $200-$400 on her. Just for whatever reason that year she had everything she wanted and I couldn't think of anything to get her. I wound up getting her some flowering plant (I can't remember the name of it now) that she had wanted for years but I wouldn't get her because she has killed every plant she has ever had.

"She kept asking for a diamond anniversary ring, I kept telling her she had to wait until the correct year.

Same here about the money.

Not really, see above about the necklace. I wanted to get her an anniversary ring but she wanted a diamond anniversary ring like after year 1.

"Didn't suggest anything in the way of a vacation or a reward for her to spend the money she's earned and take some time off of work.
Meanwhile I would take frequent "work from home days"."

Again, probably didn't want to spend the money.

That's mostly correct.

[MrBond]

"But this again brings up my dilemma of is this a change or merely self-preservation? I supposed I could argue that it is a change because I could just let things go in the place."

That's up to you. If it's up to self-preservation and not real change, why would she want to come back if you're the same.

"Because I felt my W being more emotionally distant.:

Again, you can't solely blame her for this because you were the one that willingly introduced the OC as well.

"One of the last things she said was she did things(people) in the swinging lifestyle that she didn't want to do. She never really expressed that to me, or if she did I didn't realize it. "

Like what? Did you ask her to do things that were demeaning? Did she have the idea of swinging also or was it your idea to start?

"I didn't like getting that close to having nothing left over, so I tried to get us to curb the spending back. Looking back should we have allowed ourselves to spend so we didn't get to this point? Yeah, probably."

You mean you tried to get HER to curb the spending. Again, there are other ways to do the things she liked to do without spending that much. You just have to be resourceful. But it didn't seem like you put the effort in.

"Chores mostly. Helping with the laundry, doing dishes, cleaning. "

Again, if you're only cleaning for now and will stop if she comes back, that's not real change.

"For birthdays and Christmas I have no problem spending money on her. "

That's because that part is in YOUR control. But you controlled how she spent money herself.

That's the difference.

Have you changed or are learning to change your attitude?

[Miman2]

I never asked her to do anything that was demeaning.

I guess I have to spell it out explicitly...she said that she has had sex with the male half of a couple when I was interested in the female, although she didn't want to be with the guy. She never told me she didn't want to be with anyone in particular and even when I asked her for names she has never come up with them for me.

I initially had the idea and she was reluctant for a long time. She eventually wanted to try and she made the first moves to get us into the scene.


As far as change I know its definitely a change from what I had been doing. I could just "give up" and continue to live mostly like I had been before. Instead of cooking for myself and cleaning up the house and after myself I could just be hitting up fast food and minimizing any effort I'd have to put forth around the house, but I'm not.

I am changing how I've been doing things around the house. I am trying to keep things neat, organized, and clean. It started by maintaining a set schedule but now I'm letting that schedule relax a bit and trying to keep things going as they crop up.

GAL: I did go to the Japanese group today. That was lots of fun. I was able to meet a lot of new people and make some new friends.

[Miman2]

It seems to me like whenever the swinging gets brought up no one want to touch my posts with a ten-foot pole. lol

Anyway, the weekend is gone and I'm back into my week routine. Only a couple of GAL events planned this week (besides the daily workout I have, 2 work lunchs, 2 meetup outings, a phone interview for a new job, church, and maybe getting together with friends this Friday), might try to work in a couple more. It seems like everything happens after Wednesday. Sundays through Tuesdays are pretty dead, so I try to use that time to make sure the apartment is in order.

So I've been thinking and reading other posts and it seems like I've been seeing a lot of mentions of letting go of the rope. It seems to me that the general advice is that:

when the idea of the big D doesn't send you into a panic,
you can honestly say you're detached (in the sense that you know you have no control over your S thoughts and actions, you can only live with their actions, and not want to be there to swoop in and protect them etc.),
and you know that you'll be okay with or without your S

are you at the point where the rope is dropped.

I've been talking with my IC about dropping the rope and he seems convinced that I'm moving towards that but he keeps bringing up two things.

1) During the process it will be natural to mourn the loss and it's something that's okay and I will have to go through.
2) Before finally dropping the rope, I should at least throw the line out one last time.

The second point seems to go a bit against LRT. I know, I know, LRT is supposed to give me a chance to become the best possible person I can become. Does that include reaching out to the S when I've become that person?? LRT does say not to contact them and let them contact you first.

As for the first point, the idea of the big D doesn't scare me all that much, I know I can't control the decisions my W is making at the moment. I can only live with them and go on with my own life. But the mourning... the moments where I miss having her around... that's what gets me every time.

I'm really thinking I need to find a new IC. I don't feel like he's helping me swim, instead we're just treading water. He actually asked how I thought I got to this point last session. That was one of the thing MWD mentioned, the therapist shouldn't focus on the past and how you got to this point, instead they should focus on how I'm going to be changing from this point forward. My IC asked a little bit. I told him about this forum and he was kind of surprised saying things like "How did they determine you were controlling?" and "Well you seem to have all the right steps in front of you"

[Mozza]

It seems to me like whenever the swinging gets brought up no one want to touch my posts with a ten-foot pole. lol

Why assume that you are judged? A lot of posts go unanswered on these boards. The brain tends to look for patterns (I'm sure Raliced-the-statistician would agree) where there are none because the want to see them. It might be interesting to explore why you see this pattern. I personally don't comment on the swinging because I've no experience with it and no judgement against it either. So I read and learn, but I don't judge.

Anyway, the weekend is gone and I'm back into my week routine. Only a couple of GAL events planned this week (besides the daily workout I have, 2 work lunchs, 2 meetup outings, a phone interview for a new job, church, and maybe getting together with friends this Friday), might try to work in a couple more. It seems like everything happens after Wednesday. Sundays through Tuesdays are pretty dead, so I try to use that time to make sure the apartment is in order.

Sounds great! By the way, I cleaned my apartment on Friday and I feel great about it. It's a little pick-me-up every time I walk though it. It doesn't sound like GAL much, but it does wonders for me.

2) Before finally dropping the rope, I should at least throw the line out one last time.

The second point seems to go a bit against LRT. I know, I know, LRT is supposed to give me a chance to become the best possible person I can become. Does that include reaching out to the S when I've become that person?? LRT does say not to contact them and let them contact you first.

DR says you let them reach out to you first. Think of it from your WW's perspective. Right now, she's thrilled by her new life and repulsed by you. Every effort you make to get closer to you is unpleasant to her. There might be a time in the future, say a year or two from now, when she will get bored with the OC and think of you in a new light. Maybe she'll reconsider. If you leave the door open, if you don't tell her you never want to see her again, call her names, etc. then she'll come back. Also, keep in mind that she needs to really want to be back with you for a reconciliation to work, not pulled back in the M.

Do you know why your IC suggests that you make one last try? Is it because he thinks it might get you back with your WW or because it would benefit you with some sort of closure?

As for the first point, the idea of the big D doesn't scare me all that much, I know I can't control the decisions my W is making at the moment. I can only live with them and go on with my own life. But the mourning... the moments where I miss having her around... that's what gets me every time.

It gets better. I've cut off almost every contact with WW and she is slowly receding in my memory. I was reading about those people who became blind later in life and they complain about forgetting the face of their spouse and husband. That's how it feels.

I'm really thinking I need to find a new IC. I don't feel like he's helping me swim, instead we're just treading water. He actually asked how I thought I got to this point last session. That was one of the thing MWD mentioned, the therapist shouldn't focus on the past and how you got to this point, instead they should focus on how I'm going to be changing from this point forward. My IC asked a little bit.

Can you elaborate a little more on this? I'm asking because I've thought of changing my IC a few times too, but I realize over time that our conversations might not be short-term solutions, but they are deeply transformational. And that's what I'm really going for. Another thing that I do is, ever 5-6th session, I will ask him where we're going, what we're doing, etc. I never get a straight answer (I'm in charge, so it's up to me) but I always understand better. Try to ask your IC in which of the three main schools he belongs: psychoanalytic, humanist or cognitivist. My IC is psychoanalytic (subconscious processes) while MWD seems to be cognitivist (practical advice).

I don't have the book here, but as I recall, when it comes to looking only ahead MWD talks about MC, not IC. In MC, she sees it as a problem that people spend months and years rehashing past issues, rather than fixing the future. Personally, I'm with an IC that lets me go in the past and it has helped me a lot to understand who I am, which, I now realize, is central to life. Know thyself.

I told him about this forum and he was kind of surprised saying things like "How did they determine you were controlling?" and "Well you seem to have all the right steps in front of you"

MrBond tends to look for "control" in a lot of newcomers and will push you. I saw the exchange and didn't think you were that bad. The boards are not gospel and the people around here don't know you much. What they detect is patterns based on a few clues (pattern detection, again!). The idea is that you come here for inspiration, but you make the final call. I've been lynched as a father based on a couple of lines about my kids and I decided that child rearing is not a topic I want to discuss here. I'm in the middle of a discussion about dating and sex after S but before D and I'm in the minority, but I appreciate the input. How I lead my life and what I think of myself is entirely mine though.

The only place where I put a higher value on what this board says than on what I think is on practical action. I trust the process almost blindly because even though it's counter-intuitive, it's the only thing that I've seen working as I studied the success stories.

[raliced]

It seems to me like whenever the swinging gets brought up no one want to touch my posts with a ten-foot pole. lol

Why assume that you are judged? A lot of posts go unanswered on these boards. The brain tends to look for patterns (I'm sure Raliced-the-statistician would agree) where there are none because the want to see them. It might be interesting to explore why you see this pattern. I personally don't comment on the swinging because I've no experience with it and no judgement against it either. So I read and learn, but I don't judge.

My ears were burning.
Miman- I looked over your thread and I assure you, that you actually get more responses that most people who are so early into their sitch. I'm with Mozza - the swinging thing is outside my realm of experience so it's hard to weigh in. Frankly, that's why I comment much less frequently on the posts of LBHs. We all have are similarities - but its always a little harder to qrasp my head around a situation where a woman broke up her family (because that just seems so foreign to me). Keep posting and keep asking questions and you will continue to get responses.

[Miman2]

Why assume that you are judged? A lot of posts go unanswered on these boards. The brain tends to look for patterns (I'm sure Raliced-the-statistician would agree) where there are none because the want to see them. It might be interesting to explore why you see this pattern. I personally don't comment on the swinging because I've no experience with it and no judgement against it either. So I read and learn, but I don't judge.

Don't know really. I guess I think it's hard for a lot of people to relate to the situation because of that, and so they might not comment. I guess I figure a majority of the people would probably think I set myself up for my situation by even participating in such a lifestyle and might not want to comment because I dug my own grave, so to speak. I guess I just fear judgement because it's something people easily pass judgement on. Surprisingly my support network (friends & family) have been pretty level headed about it when I told them.

DR says you let them reach out to you first. Think of it from your WW's perspective. Right now, she's thrilled by her new life and repulsed by you. Every effort you make to get closer to you is unpleasant to her. There might be a time in the future, say a year or two from now, when she will get bored with the OC and think of you in a new light. Maybe she'll reconsider. If you leave the door open, if you don't tell her you never want to see her again, call her names, etc. then she'll come back. Also, keep in mind that she needs to really want to be back with you for a reconciliation to work, not pulled back in the M.

That is one of the hard parts I suppose. I cycle between trying to keep a level head and move on with my life while keeping the options open. There hasn't been any movement on the D as far as I know of. But she seems to be cutting off all connections to silly accounts we used to share like our Evernote and Spotify accounts. I know we're only supposed to trust 50% of what they're doing but it still gets me upset to the point where I just want to "rip the band-aid" off already and get the paperwork over and done with. :-/

Do you know why your IC suggests that you make one last try? Is it because he thinks it might get you back with your WW or because it would benefit you with some sort of closure?

I don't really know. I suppose I should ask him directly. I would have to guess he might have a little of both of those in mind. He seems to agree with DB and giving the W her space but he doesn't seem to like the "strategy" behind it.

It gets better. I've cut off almost every contact with WW and she is slowly receding in my memory. I was reading about those people who became blind later in life and they complain about forgetting the face of their spouse and husband. That's how it feels.

For whatever reason that sounds horrible to me lol.

Can you elaborate a little more on this? I'm asking because I've thought of changing my IC a few times too, but I realize over time that our conversations might not be short-term solutions, but they are deeply transformational. And that's what I'm really going for. Another thing that I do is, ever 5-6th session, I will ask him where we're going, what we're doing, etc. I never get a straight answer (I'm in charge, so it's up to me) but I always understand better. Try to ask your IC in which of the three main schools he belongs: psychoanalytic, humanist or cognitivist. My IC is psychoanalytic (subconscious processes) while MWD seems to be cognitivist (practical advice).

I don't have the book here, but as I recall, when it comes to looking only ahead MWD talks about MC, not IC. In MC, she sees it as a problem that people spend months and years rehashing past issues, rather than fixing the future. Personally, I'm with an IC that lets me go in the past and it has helped me a lot to understand who I am, which, I now realize, is central to life. Know thyself.

I've seen him maybe 5 times now. At one point I asked him is there anything I should be working on, and he basically said "we're in crisis management right now". Between that and him saying that I seem to be handling things right and doing the right things (which I have because of DB/DR and this board) so he feels little more than a mirror that's giving me the underlying how's and why's. For example I mentioned GAL to him the other day and he was saying how it's in the "new, risky, exciting" things in life where we grow as people and how in the "safe, routine" things can cause us to stagnate. He also mentioned how too much of either column can be bad too.

While this is valuable insight to why I should GAL it doesn't really do much to help promote the actual action of GAL or help in setting goals or anything other than "I really should get out more".

The W is a behaviorist. It baffles my family's collective mind that the W refuses to work through things because she of all people should know a behavior can be changed. :-/ Maybe I'm fighting a losing battle because of that fact.

MrBond tends to look for "control" in a lot of newcomers and will push you. I saw the exchange and didn't think you were that bad. The boards are not gospel and the people around here don't know you much. What they detect is patterns based on a few clues (pattern detection, again!). The idea is that you come here for inspiration, but you make the final call. I've been lynched as a father based on a couple of lines about my kids and I decided that child rearing is not a topic I want to discuss here. I'm in the middle of a discussion about dating and sex after S but before D and I'm in the minority, but I appreciate the input. How I lead my life and what I think of myself is entirely mine though.

The only place where I put a higher value on what this board says than on what I think is on practical action. I trust the process almost blindly because even though it's counter-intuitive, it's the only thing that I've seen working as I studied the success stories.

My ears were burning.
Miman- I looked over your thread and I assure you, that you actually get more responses that most people who are so early into their sitch. I'm with Mozza - the swinging thing is outside my realm of experience so it's hard to weigh in. Frankly, that's why I comment much less frequently on the posts of LBHs. We all have are similarities - but its always a little harder to qrasp my head around a situation where a woman broke up her family (because that just seems so foreign to me). Keep posting and keep asking questions and you will continue to get responses.

I suppose I just have to keep posting, walking the right line (GAL & LRT) and hope that if I start to get too far off of course someone will help correct me.

[MrBond]

"It seems to me like whenever the swinging gets brought up no one want to touch my posts with a ten-foot pole. lol"

It's probably not the swinging issue. There are alot of posters on the board and a bunch just started within the past week. Sad that it keeps happening.

"So I've been thinking and reading other posts and it seems like I've been seeing a lot of mentions of letting go of the rope. It seems to me that the general advice is that:

when the idea of the big D doesn't send you into a panic,
you can honestly say you're detached (in the sense that you know you have no control over your S thoughts and actions, you can only live with their actions, and not want to be there to swoop in and protect them etc.),
and you know that you'll be okay with or without your S

are you at the point where the rope is dropped."

This is true.

"The second point seems to go a bit against LRT. I know, I know, LRT is supposed to give me a chance to become the best possible person I can become. "

No that is not what LRT is about. Regardless of what stage you're in, you're supposed to be changing into a better person and especially getting rid of the bad behaviors that turned off your spouse in the first place.

"Does that include reaching out to the S when I've become that person?? LRT does say not to contact them and let them contact you first."

No. It depends on your situation. If you don't contact her every now and then, how's she going to see the changes?

"I'm really thinking I need to find a new IC. I don't feel like he's helping me swim, instead we're just treading water. He actually asked how I thought I got to this point last session. That was one of the thing MWD mentioned, the therapist shouldn't focus on the past and how you got to this point, instead they should focus on how I'm going to be changing from this point forward. My IC asked a little bit. I told him about this forum and he was kind of surprised saying things like "How did they determine you were controlling?" and "Well you seem to have all the right steps in front of you""

The controlling issue was basically about your money issues which you outlined perfectly. You said that YOU don't like spending close to chest and felt your W might have been spending more than you were comfortable with. That's control on your part because your W didn't seem to have that issue. Yet you let your fear take over and discouraged her from spending. You may have thought of it as responsible spending, whereas she didn't.

Also her having sex with someone that she didn't want to was definitely sexual control if she did it to please you. She may not have told you she was uncomfortable, but either way, she did it to make you happy.

[25yearsmlc]

So one of the things I've been doing is going to IC. I mentioned the DB/DR books to my IC and he wasn't familiar with them. I talked about several of the techniques with him and while he was on board with most of them he had a problem with the LRT. He mentioned that instead of stopping interactions (phone calls, texts) that instead I should look at them less as "strategic" interactions and more like "authentic" interactions.


To me, this^^^ is a great example of an IC getting the DB ways faster than you seem to be getting them (no offense).

What he's saying, I THINK, is that you should be authentic, whereas you seem to be looking for "techniques" and tactics to "win" back your wife. Your IC is much closer to the truth.

You must authentically change the way YOU behave and to do that, you must also change the way you see things. You have to grow as a man.

For example: Several weeks ago the the W mentioned maybe we could get lunch together. The IC said I should call/text to ask her when she might want to meet for lunch because I authentically want to meet her for lunch with no ulterior strategy behind it.

I agree. Although I'd choose to see the lunch as an opportunity for your wife to see the new improved you (even if at first you have to "fake it til you make it")

but certainly NOT with expectations attached which is what I sense you want.

This statement by the IC has caused me a LOT of conflict. It's what led me to calling the W after she texted 2 weeks ago. I felt the call was productive but in the big picture of things I worry it wasn't. Which leads me to wanting to interact with her again authentically and it seems like this could lead to an unending cycle leading to pursuit behaviors.

What does everyone else think?

Become the best man you can become. Choose that as your first primary goal b/c from what Bond and others have written to you, I'm not sure you get how much work you have.

Self improvement is not "the last resort" - it's the FIRST and BIGGEST CONSTANT in DBing.

Also, and please hear this, having work to do on yourself is GREAT NEWS b/c it means you can do something to change this!

You are not powerless.

(If you had been a perfect h to your w, truly, then this would be hopeless, right? So see the need for improvement as both realistic AND good news...)

Make sense?