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I've changed the title of the thread, but with the same idea. If you are a newcomer, I want to point out that the advice is geared for those who are faced with a wayward spouse. If you have not read the first thread where I tried to describe the difference in a WAS and a wayward, I encourage you to go to the link below.

In the meantime, I want to copy and paste a couple of things from the previous thread, For LBH who has a WW Part 3.

Hope the interest continues.


Series Links

Links to this series of threads

First thread
For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554&page=1

Second thread
For the Newcomer LBH who has a wayward wife Part 2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2548490#Post2548490

Third thread
For the LBH who has a WW Part 3
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551039#Post2551039

4th thread (this thread)
Guide for LBH who has a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551811#Post2551811

5th thread
Help for LBH who has a WW (new thread)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2593214#Post2593214

6th thread
Sandi's reflections
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2653323#Post2653323







Last edited by Cadet; 02/15/16 08:10 AM. Reason: Links

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'For WAHs, the connection is visual and sexual.'

That's interesting. After BD and before I discovered DB/DR, I asked H what would need to change in order for us to get our M back on track.

He told me I would need to dress more provocatively. I told him I'm happy to dress up sometimes, but mostly I'm happy & comfortable with what I wear. I thought it was a bit bonkers at the time. But I guess the visual/sexual was very important right then.

Do you think in time WAH's start to crave the deeper emotional/family bond again? My H just seems to have gone from failing (failed?) A onto dating...


T 13 M 7
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SS 15
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You asked him what he wanted, then dismissed what he said? That IS bonkers!

-PM


M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
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Quote from Wonka:

I
Quote:
think the DB approach for LBWs should differ slightly from the LBHs. Because the female and male dynamic is quite different.

Case in point.

For WAWs, the connection to the OM is emotional.

For WAHs, the connection is visual and sexual.

For DBing to be successful, the LBH needs to come down HARD on the WAW because the emotional allure is like a powerful riptide tearing her and the M asunder.

For DBing to be successful, the LBW needs to re-attract her WAH for men really like the chase and are visually-oriented.

Generally, your "Sandi's Rules" list applies to both sets of LBSes equally irrespective of the situation: IA, EA, PA, MLC.


Thanks so much, Wonka, and I totally agree. I have been asked a few times to give advice particularly for the LBW, but felt I probably needed to stick to an area I had personally experienced. I made a stab at trying to explain something similar to what you've said, and took nearly two pages to do a hatchet job. Just deleted the whole mess! (ha). I don't want to completely ignore any lady who may be dealing with a wayward H, and really appreciate any advice anyone gives. However, as you've said, it is different b/c of the dynamics. So if anyone should give thoughts that apply other than for the LBH who has a WW, I hope it will be noted.


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Originally Posted By: PatientMan
You asked him what he wanted, then dismissed what he said? That IS bonkers!

-PM


Hey, hey PM...remember Men from Mars, Women from Venus?? This is why men and women view things differently. I don't blame Toots for thinking that way because...well...she's a woman. grin

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Originally Posted By: Toots

Do you think in time WAH's start to crave the deeper emotional/family bond again? My H just seems to have gone from failing (failed?) A onto dating...


I cannot speak to your sitch, Toots.

However, I read somewhere that men seek out sex as a way to connect with his wife emotionally whereas women need to feel emotionally connected with their man in order to enjoy sex.

For you male posters, is that ^^ sex part about right?

No wonder problems arise! crazy

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I want to forward a couple of lists from the other thread.

This list has some of the things the WW will need to do in order to reconcile, honestly and completely, with her H. If you see something that needs to be added, feel free.

These are in no special order.

1). Consequences! And taking a hit with hard, maybe a painful loss of some kind.
2). Realizing the connection between her decisions with the consequences/loss.
3). Accepting responsibility for her decisions...and for every loss,
and every hurt she caused those she loves and who loves her.
4). Accepting and dealing with the consequences, without blaming anyone but herself.
5). Making a conscious choice to end her wayward direction and turn around.
6). Seeking guidance and/or spiritual counsel to guide her in how to cleanse her heart of the wrong attitudes, selfcenterness, resentment, rebellion.......whatever she carries that is unhealthy.
7). To be remorseful.  If necessary, even seek spiritual help, pray, whatever......to feel remorse for the destruction her decisions and feelings has caused her H.  She has to feel true remorse in order to emotionally reconcile and heal properly.
8). To completely forgive her H for everything in the past. To release the blame,anger, and hurt she held throughout their M.
9).  To be wiling to do whatever it takes for the MR to heal.
10). To agree and cooperate with the H's choice of transparency plan (accountability), sending a NC letter, having any medical tests, ending any friendships out of his request, (and of course, any contact with OM), place of employment, giving him requested information, attending MC, or anything else the H may request in order to ensure the success of their reconciliation, and the safety of the MR.
11). Accept/agree, without resentment, that she is in no position to give her H any "conditions" to her going back into the MR.  And, to accept without resentment, that the greatest level of work in piecing the M back together, must come from her.
12). To accept that it will take time for her healthy emotions to be restored.  To realize and accept she cannot measure the success of their progress by her feelings.
13). To be informed, and accept, that she must go through withdrawals from her AP, and could experience depression. She needs to understand this is normal, and not a sign that she will have never have feelings for H.
13).  And the hardest one of all.........learn to forgive herself.

 Keep in mind, these things will not all come about at one time. Neither will she be able to know without someone guiding her.  It is really important she has help or coaching from an unbiased source who is pro-marriage and is familiar with piecing after an affair.

**************************************************************************************

The second list is applied to the LBH.

Quote from Wonka:

Thank you for articulating the main point for LBHs whose WAW is in an A: stop being such a wet noodle and grab the bull by the horns from the get-go. It starts with dropping the rabid FEAR in you. Your WAW is a paper tigeress.

In summary, the action list should be something like this upon arriving at the DB forum in short order:

1-Keep DB to yourself and hide the DR book. You don't give away the playbook to the opponent. ERASE all browsing history on your computer.
2-LOSE YOUR FEAR of WAW. Reclaim your balls back from her purse.
3-Pull out the "not willing to live in an open M/no-OM boundary" script.
4-Stop sharing the same MBR with your WAW. You are not willing to share her with another man. Tell WAW that "you have decided that you prefer she sleep in another room."
5-Sex? Forget it. It all stops right now. Same as above.
6-DO NOT have convos with WAW about the OM. You are not her gay boyfriend. You are her H. Do not acknowledge or speak about the OM at all.
7- Move all of your FINANCIAL assets into a new banking account with just your name on it (no more joint $$ with WAW) and cancel joint credit cards. Be sure to inform bank officers that your WAW is not to get a loan or open a card with your name ...they must call you first to alert of this.
8-Cut off all joint cell phone plans (you are not financing W's affair by paying for her smartphone to continue conducting her A on the family's money)
9-Only pay expenses related to children (if you have any) and other praticalities
10-Consult with a Lawyer to know your rights. Go in for an informational meeting with 3 to 4 attorneys. Keep it to yourself. Knowledge is power.
11-Cancel all MC sessions. It is ineffective as long as your WAW is in an A and just going there for appearance's sake to claim that "they tried." Pshaw!
12-Don't drive or pick her up from the airport. She can figure this out herself.
12-Make your own GAL plans. Don't drop them if WAW cries to you that she needs you to "babysit" the kids or threatens you.
13-Stop going into an overdrive cleaning the house or doing the laundry. Makes you look like the gay housekeeper from La Cage aux Folles movie.


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Sandi. Thank you. I've not added anything to this but do read all of these posts. They are so incredibly helpful and eye opening.

I do wish I could slide this under Ws nose for her to read and it would matter, but I know that's just fantasy.

Thank you so much for opening my eyes. Please keep sharing.


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hey Sandi,

i'd really be interested in your thoughts about the differences/similarities of behavior of a WAW and a WW. i've got the WAXW with no affair. any ideas would be greatly appreciated! still keeping up the good fight but not being pathetic/needy about it.


M40 XW35
M11 T15
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Bomb 6/3/14
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D final 12/5/14

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From me

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Originally posted by Wonka:

Sandi,

Thank you for articulating the main point for LBHs whose WAW is in an A: stop being such a wet noodle and grab the bull by the horns from the get-go. It starts with dropping the rabid FEAR in you. Your WAW is a paper tigeress.

In summary, the action list should be something like this upon arriving at the DB forum in short order:

1-Keep DB to yourself and hide the DR book. You don't give away the playbook to the opponent. ERASE all browsing history on your computer.
2-LOSE YOUR FEAR of WAW. Reclaim your balls back from her purse.
3-Pull out the "not willing to live in an open M/no-OM boundary" script.
4-Stop sharing the same MBR with your WAW. You are not willing to share her with another man. Tell WAW that "you have decided that you prefer she sleep in another room."
5-Sex? Forget it. It all stops right now. Same as above.
6-DO NOT have convos with WAW about the OM. You are not her gay boyfriend. You are her H. Do not acknowledge or speak about the OM at all.
7- Move all of your FINANCIAL assets into a new banking account with just your name on it (no more joint $$ with WAW) and cancel joint credit cards. Be sure to inform bank officers that your WAW is not to get a loan or open a card with your name ...they must call you first to alert of this.
8-Cut off all joint cell phone plans (you are not financing W's affair by paying for her smartphone to continue conducting her A on the family's money)
9-Only pay expenses related to children (if you have any) and other praticalities
10-Consult with a Lawyer to know your rights. Go in for an informational meeting with 3 to 4 attorneys. Keep it to yourself. Knowledge is power.
11-Cancel all MC sessions. It is ineffective as long as your WAW is in an A and just going there for appearance's sake to claim that "they tried." Pshaw!
12-Don't drive or pick her up from the airport. She can figure this out herself.
12-Make your own GAL plans. Don't drop them if WAW cries to you that she needs you to "babysit" the kids or threatens you.
13-Stop going into an overdrive cleaning the house or doing the laundry. Makes you look like the gay housekeeper from La Cage aux Folles movie.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I feel the need to qualify the above list with this caveat for LBHs:

When it comes to finances, if you have been the person who has been the sole breadwinner and handled ALL of the family's finances, you MUST be careful not to be TOO controlling here. Taking a scorched earth approach isn't the way to go about it.

If your W is a SAHM and gave you all the control of the family money such as paying bills, etc., then you will need to allow W to have some control over them. Otherwise, you'll just come across as a very vindictive and controlling angry man.

I have heard stories of some men controlling pretty much everything that goes in the house and how his wife is expected to behave/act like a Stepford Wife. If this fits your description, then the first step is to SEEK professional help for your controlling tendencies...pronto.

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Thanks for the perspective Patient Man, and Wonka for clarifying further. I guess at the time, provocative dressing seemed quite a superficial thing to me, in the context of him having an ongoing A. And I also struggled because I have met OW and she dresses provocatively for work - lots of breast on show and tight red dresses. And I felt he was 'trying' to turn me into OW, and have me strut about the house in red dresses.

And then he said - of course not when SS is around. So I felt a bit like - so you want me to parent your S, and then dress like a prostitute. Where's me in all of this? I don't dress like that?

So, I didn't dismiss it to him. I did think a lot about it and he and I talked about it. And I have thought about it a lot since. And my overall take on it was that we let some of the passion ebb away, and our LM became more routine, and that it was more about us keeping the passion alive and kicking - than me wearing thigh high lace up boots with lots of breast on show every day.


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Toots - you are not alone here. I recall a similar conversation with my H pre-BD. He wanted me to wear more sexy stuff and I felt near insulted by the superficiality of that request at a time when I felt we had more important issues to address. I think it was a very MAFM WAFV moment.


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From Mozza:

Quote:
sandi2- Again, wow. I've a question. In your sitch, did you ever leave your H or intended to? I'm asking because the WW of many LBH here have admitted to the affair and left the marital home. For them, it's not a matter of getting a little fulfillment on the side, but of giving up on their H and changing partner altogether. I wonder if it makes a difference in how we should approach the sitches or if it's just splitting hair.


Did I leave my H? In every way! Except, moving physically out of the house. (I even left the night everything hit the fan, not knowing if I would return.) I had my hand on the doorknob for several months. That is how close it came. I had began saving things and planning logistics. OM was even going to financially help me. Wasn't that nice of him? Until I actually discovered how much he was willing to give up. smirk. (One of the first signs I had that something stunk in the fantasy castle.)

As for as how the H should approach the stitch if his WW has separated from him to live in another house, I am inclined to say basically no differently. The only exception, maybe, applying what MWD calls the "after the LRT tecnique", which is going completely dark. Many find it almost impossible where the couple coparents their children. Either way, I believe the tougher side of love must be applied with a wayward, regardless where she resides.

Let me refer back to something you said about the WW who does not leave the home. (This may open the door for yet a new line of discussion.) Your reference to the W who does not leave the home being a "matter of just getting fulfillment on the side". I appreciate you saying it this way, b/c I am never certain how the other person may interpret some of these topics, and especially if I am doing the posting.

First, I want to clarify that I believe an emotional affair, and even a physical affair for a woman, begins by a having some type of unfulfilled need in her M. (Some other posters may want to reply if they disagree). I know we see movies where they show a faithful wife being so physically attracted to another man, it just pulls her into an A with him. All the makings for a screen love story. I think that is more Hollywood and less the norm. I will add, that Hollywood has certainly influenced the thinking in our society, but human nature being what it is, I have my doubts it changed everything.

From what I have seen and read, and in my personal stitch, the woman has had unmet emotional needs for a long time. Granted, there are some who may have always had a wayward nature, who are seeking nothing but a thrill on the side. But for the majority of stories we see come through the forum, the W is not wayward by nature and her behavior is completely uncharacteristic. She is often referred to as a good person and wonderful mother, and the H never saw this coming.

This may be a woman who becomes vulnerable in her emotional needs and succumbs to temptation, but still it is a choice and not just acted on from uncontrolled animalistic lust. If I am totally ignorant in this line of thinking, I trust someone will set me straight.

On the other hand, it may be a woman who is filled with such negative feelings for her H that she reacts by engaging in a wayward lifestyle that just shouts "rebellion". It doesn't necessarily have to be an affair, that's just what we see as the common denominator here on the forums. An affair is such a personal betrayal to her H/M.

Listen, when I first came here, I couldn't stand to hear the men refer to themselves as the "betrayed". My attitude was like, "Oh please! Get over yourself!". Now you tell me Mozza, was I bad.... or was I really bad? I never left my house, but It was more serious than me finding fulfillment on the side. Sadly, an very unlike me, I did not take it seriously in the first move I made in that direction. Does that make sense? In some cases, it becomes more complicated for women, at least, b/c it involves attitudes and a very bad mindset of a person who has given up on her H.

Not to get away from a wayward, but even for the WAW who is not wayward and may have legit reasons for leaving, has given up on her H, IMHO. That is why she's a WAW. The MR has gone badly and her hope that it will ever change just runs out.

The most basic decision made in how the H should approach with a WAW, IMO, is based on the fact she is either wayward.... or she's not.


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Mozza, I apologize for the lateness of that last post. I wrote it last night and thought I hit the submit button. Obviously didn't. Had such a headache I had to lay the IPad down and stop for the day.


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Thanks Bravo, if you will this first thread, I addressed that subject in the first post or two.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554&page=1


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Thank you so much for these posts sandi2.
I don't know if you've seen my posts but I have what I've now identified as a wayward h who is in an ea. I'm struggling learning detachment at the moment and trying to get a plan together..
I'm not sure his a is because of a physical attraction, he still tells me he finds me very attractive and avoids sleeping in the same bed as me or he will want sex.
He seems confused and dillusional to me.
Have you any advice on how I can get him back? I need a plan. I've tried GAL and continue to do that. I can't go completely dark as we live together (although he's never home) and we have a young baby


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reconciling: 4/15
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Sandi I just want to give you kuddos for this thread. Sharing your story in this way is incredible. You are opening up so many eyes. I think you were the 1st person who posted to me 4 years ago. My exw as far as I know didnt have OM. She fell in love with the equine world. Hard. As I type this i remember the exact words you said to me. And you were so very correct.

The line about the man being the "betrayed" is so powerful. It really puts things into perspective. And i hope you are not reliving those painful days. You are very valuable here.


M 53
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Separated 6/22/11 moved out 10/24
Together 26 yrs
Married 16
W Filed for D 7/21/11
Served 9/6/11
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“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”

John Wooden





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That means a lot to me, Rick. No, I am not reliving it. Sometimes when I share, I do get somewhat emotional, b/c I will forever regret that period in my life and the horrible pain I caused my H. His health really plummeted and has continued to get worse. I can't help but feel responsible in part. Maybe that is my guilt, IDK.

I have never felt the need to stay on the board due to guilt ot any negative feelings. It was my counsel and guide, originally, b/c my H would not go to MC with me. I've learned a lot from the heart broken people on the DB board, and especially the betrayed H's who told me their feelings, whereas, my own H would not open up and talk about his. In fact, it was in reading their personal sharing that helped me to feel remorse for my actions. I was able to see what their WW's had done to them, and knew that is what my H experienced.

it was a therapy for me. At times, I suppose it still is. I do have a desire to pay forward a little of the help I received in those dark days for me.

You have been a source of encouragement for me, Rick. Thank you.


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Originally Posted By: sandi2
I do have a desire to pay forward a little of the help I received in those dark days for me.

I would encourage everyone to PAY IT FORWARD.
The people that helped me like Jack3Beans,HB,Mach1,Cat04,Job, and many others no longer need help.
So the only way I can pay them back is to help others.

Bravo to you Sandi2 for also being in this mindset!

I hope the people that we are helping can also one day help many others! smile


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Cherry, I am about ready to cry. I spent nearly two hours working on a post to send you, and on the last sentence my clumsy finger hit something wrong.....and I lost the whole thing. Yeah, it was pretty long. It just nearly makes me sick to put that much time into typing up a post, then lose it. Anyway, I will have to take another go at it, and maybe shorten it a lot!


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Originally Posted By: sandi2
Cherry, I am about ready to cry. I spent nearly two hours working on a post to send you, and on the last sentence my clumsy finger hit something wrong.....and I lost the whole thing. Yeah, it was pretty long. It just nearly makes me sick to put that much time into typing up a post, then lose it. Anyway, I will have to take another go at it, and maybe shorten it a lot!

suggestion next time that happens try hitting the back button and see if you can get your post back. That works for me sometimes


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Hi Sandi,

I am back, head down but still hopeful. I would like to share and get some feedback.

From what I understand, the PA is over since Dec (?) They still chat but I'm not aware of the frequency and she has lied about chatting with him. She has made statements like:

"I hate lying and that's why I want to separate so I can be free to chat with him and not lie to you".
"I will never give him up as a friend".
"He doesn't want me that way (PA), there is no future for us".

She wants to separate. How she wants to go about this is to first sell our house, move to a different city, live together first. If things work out hey, we may still be together. I don't really believe that. I think that by me going along with all this, she gets help in moving and setting up. At that point, she is free to dump me quite easily as things are all wrapped up.

"You're not my backup plan, you're my potential plan".

She still wants me to spend time with her, have sex, and generally speak her love language. She has stated that she doesn't love me. I believe that. She get upset when I don't cater to her emotional needs. She throws out hope at times. She wants me to sleep in the MBR.

If we separate, we'd have to move to the other city anyways and get 2 different apartments. I won't lie to you, I want to keep the house. She hates it here and said that she has never been attached to "things".

She says that living with me means no freedom. I asked her what does that mean, and she said that she wouldn't be able to chat with her friend as long as she is with me. I said, you want to give up everything just for chat? She said yes. Other people have told her she is crazy but she doesn't believe it.

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TB, your W sounds deep in fog at the moment. I certainly wouldn't engage in any of her plans to 'save' your R somewhere down the line. If you want to stay in the house, stay in the house. Further down the line if she comes out of the fog, and you guys want to try again, that's the time to think about moving perhaps.

If she is still in touch with OM in this way, and still wanting him - those are big danger signs, and you need to make you number one priority. Not entertain these 'mad plans' that she has.

Personally, I would go pretty dark and live your own life for now. Your W may or may not choose to join you at some point down the line...


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Tenbook, it would be very risky for you to pull up roots and follow her to another town. She says she doesn't love you, and is upfront that she won't give up OM. You mights as well keep your home and stay where you have friends, family, work, etc.

Why follow after a WW who doesn't love you? If she changes her mind, she'll know how to find you.


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I would not be able to keep the house on my own and we could not share custody. We work in the same city and her complaint is that the commute is murder.

Do I go along with it? Hang onto the slim hope that if we move and we live together that we may get back together? If so, there is no reason for her to give up her OM.

I am afraid. Afraid that she lives on her own and changing her mind as being the only way to get her back. But I know she will be happy on her own. She's a tough gal.

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Originally Posted By: Cadet
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Cherry, I am about ready to cry. I spent nearly two hours working on a post to send you, and on the last sentence my clumsy finger hit something wrong.....and I lost the whole thing. Yeah, it was pretty long. It just nearly makes me sick to put that much time into typing up a post, then lose it. Anyway, I will have to take another go at it, and maybe shorten it a lot!

suggestion next time that happens try hitting the back button and see if you can get your post back. That works for me sometimes


I quite often hit the "Go" button instead of the "Submit" button. I think it's a significant a usability flaw.

Cadet is right though, you can usually retrieve what you've written if you go back a page using the browser back button at the top left of the screen.

Perhaps they can remove or move the "Go" button.


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Originally Posted By: Old Dog
Perhaps they can remove or move the "Go" button.

Are you posting from a phone?

I dont have that button except on my phone!


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Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote from Wonka:

Quote:
I think the DB approach for LBWs should differ slightly from the LBHs. Because the female and male dynamic is quite different.

Case in point.

For WAWs, the connection to the OM is emotional.

For WAHs, the connection is visual and sexual.

For DBing to be successful, the LBH needs to come down HARD on the WAW because the emotional allure is like a powerful riptide tearing her and the M asunder.

For DBing to be successful, the LBW needs to re-attract her WAH for men really like the chase and are visually-oriented.


Sandi & Wonka.
I've done my best to employ LRT and the 37 Rules. I've done well in some areas and less in others. That is the price of learning and changing. Regardless, I am moving forward.

The above addresses a WAW with OM. What about a WAW without OM? How does the thinking change if at all?

Also, I don't fully understand the connection of the idea that "...the LBH needs to come down HARD on the WAW..." and the LRT/37 rules. How are we to "come down hard" when we don't have much contact?

If this is covered in the other posts let me know.

Thank you for the help & guidance!


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Originally Posted By: Cadet
Originally Posted By: sandi2
I do have a desire to pay forward a little of the help I received in those dark days for me.

I would encourage everyone to PAY IT FORWARD.
The people that helped me like Jack3Beans,HB,Mach1,Cat04,Job, and many others no longer need help.
So the only way I can pay them back is to help others.

Bravo to you Sandi2 for also being in this mindset!

I hope the people that we are helping can also one day help many others! smile


Amen!!!


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Originally Posted By: sandi2
Cherry, I am about ready to cry. I spent nearly two hours working on a post to send you, and on the last sentence my clumsy finger hit something wrong.....and I lost the whole thing. Yeah, it was pretty long. It just nearly makes me sick to put that much time into typing up a post, then lose it. Anyway, I will have to take another go at it, and maybe shorten it a lot!



Oh, no!!! After having that happen to me for about the fourth or fifth time once, I now get in the habit of -- when I see myself starting to get into something long (be it here, or maybe a work or long personal email) I copy and paste to my clipboard several times as I go. That way if something goes funky with it, I've still got what I've written.

Starsky


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That's a good way to do it; When my posts or emails get long I'll write the original out in wordpad and then copy and paste.


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Originally Posted By: Cadet
Originally Posted By: Old Dog
Perhaps they can remove or move the "Go" button.

Are you posting from a phone?

I dont have that button except on my phone!


I'm on a desktop not a phone. The go button is just below the text box area. It says 'Hop to: (in this case For Newcomers) Go

Interestingly, the go button isn't there if you hit 'reply' or 'quote' but is there if you just start typing in the box or if you hit 'quick reply' or 'quick quote'.


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Originally Posted By: Old Dog
Originally Posted By: Cadet
Originally Posted By: Old Dog
Perhaps they can remove or move the "Go" button.

Are you posting from a phone?

I dont have that button except on my phone!


I'm on a desktop not a phone. The go button is just below the text box area. It says 'Hop to: (in this case For Newcomers) Go

Interestingly, the go button isn't there if you hit 'reply' or 'quote' but is there if you just start typing in the box or if you hit 'quick reply' or 'quick quote'.

OK - Got it, yes I do have that Go button.
I do not usually use that method to reply.


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I'm confused why so many people seem to (assume that they) have lost their posts on these boards. I'm actually very impressed by how these boards preserve my drafts before I post them.

- If you leave the page by mistake, like hitting the Back button, come back to the page. My draft post is always there. So if you hit the Go button for instance, just go Back and your draft post is still there waiting for you (I just tested it with this post again).

- I can restart my browser entirely and when I come back to the page, my draft post is there waiting for me. Even when I close the tab, I go back to my History to reopen the recently closed tab and my draft is waiting for me. Impressive.

Next time it happens to you, try returning to the page. If it doesn't work, describe how you lost your and we might be able to retrieve it for you.


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Did not lose on the board. I accidently deleted my lost on my IPad.


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I read something in another thread that I feel needs to be discussed b/c it seems common for the LBS. Some LBS are held back from making tbe decision to proceed with D papers (for example) b/c they worry the WS will think they no longer love the WS. Or the LBS feels the WS won't know the LBS still loves the WS, and therefore, should express it. (I hope I said this right.)

As I said, this comes up often. If you would care to share your thoughts, please feel free. I am curious to know why a LBS strongly feels it is important to tell the WS, and is concerned that the WS may not know.

IMHO, it is a need the LBS has to tell the WS, ILY. My first question is why do you think the WS doesn't know? Second question, why does it matter so much to you to tell the WS one more time? Third, do you believe it will cause the WS to have second thoughts, or what? And fourth, do you believe it really matters to the WS, if they are in an A and/or have filed for D?


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I think a lot of LBS feel that they can "snap" their W out of their waywardness. I know I felt that way for a while. So yes, I thought my W would have second thoughts by me saying ILY. Mind you, the last time I said it, I got an ILY2. But it did seem to make her angrier.


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About telling the WAS that we still love them...

The last time I said it is over six months ago, on the day that she was leaving home. So I hold the line of not telling her even though I sometimes feel like I want to.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
why do you think the WS doesn't know?

In my specific case, my WW is very afraid of rejection and will easily assume that she's not loved. She needs a lot of reassurance. On the day that I relented to the S, she immediately thought I didn't care about S, even though I had just spent a week in tears in front of her.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Second question, why does it matter so much to you to tell the WS one more time?

In case she doesn't try to come back because she thinks I reject her, again something she's very afraid of. Maybe she reads my detached behavior and thinks that I'm not interested since I don't pursue.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Third, do you believe it will cause the WS to have second thoughts, or what?

Not having second thoughts, but expressing second thoughts, yes. So my scenario is that WW regrets her decision but will not let me know because she thinks I moved on and never loved her much anyway. She said as much when my friends and family weren't contacting her: "it's evidence our relationship was paper thin and they never thought we were good together".

I'm ok not telling because I realized it doesn't matter to her if I love her. What matters is if she loves me. It will come from her, not me.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
And fourth, do you believe it really matters to the WS, if they are in an A and/or have filed for D?

As I wrote above, I don't think they care who loves them, they care who they love. So telling them would not make them love us in return. It's pointless. I've accepted that as long as WW is with OM, she doesn't care about me. Her mind is on this new R, her life and projects revolve around it. As much as I dwell on the past, for her it's not what she thinks about, nor does she care if I love her or not. At best, she might have a bit of pity for me and be flattered and reassured. I want none of these things.

Looking forward to everybody's input and your reaction.


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For me I think it is a combination of a need to express myself or speak or perhaps even try to rationalize the situation, and the idea that the next talk would be influential.

It was very hard for me to stop expressing myself, and learn the valuable lesson that everything I say does not have to come out of my mouth.


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Sandi and Wonka - When you get a minute can you please answer my questions from page 3 of this thread? Thank you!


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Originally Posted By: mahhhty

It was very hard for me to stop expressing myself, and learn the valuable lesson that everything I say does not have to come out of my mouth.


I'm an idiot. Correction.... It was very hard for me to stop expressing myself, and learn the valuable lesson that everything I THINK does not have to come out of my mouth.


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Sandi, can you check out Danigirl's thread? Thinking she really needs you.


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I often think it is not ILY but I still LY or ILY still. In case the WS thinks their behaviour means there is no more love from the LBS.

I am with Sandi on this one.

I believe that loving is a choice, I choose to love my H with all his faults and if his behaviour is damaging then I choose my love of myself first and foremost. limmerance is a choice too, an EA/PA is a choice to make. At some point that choice has consequences and that consequence is or could be an addiction which tramples the soul. With a higher power then that choice is managed. Just as the LBS has chosen to love they can in time choose to love in the way of friend instead or to let go completely of that love (love as in the old R).

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Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote from Wonka:

Quote:
I think the DB approach for LBWs should differ slightly from the LBHs. Because the female and male dynamic is quite different.

Case in point.

For WAWs, the connection to the OM is emotional.

For WAHs, the connection is visual and sexual.

For DBing to be successful, the LBH needs to come down HARD on the WAW because the emotional allure is like a powerful riptide tearing her and the M asunder.

For DBing to be successful, the LBW needs to re-attract her WAH for men really like the chase and are visually-oriented.


Questions from Mahhty:

Sandi & Wonka.
I've done my best to employ LRT and the 37 Rules. I've done well in some areas and less in others. That is the price of learning and changing. Regardless, I am moving forward.

The above addresses a WAW with OM. What about a WAW without OM? How does the thinking change if at all? In the rare instances where there's no OM, the approach is different...obviously. One does not need to pull out the no-OM boundary speech nor take any proactive measures to cease funding the affair--especially paying for the smartphone.

In cases where there's no OW or OM, the game plan is this: GAL, do genuine 180s on some of the legitimate complaints from your WAS, use your ears MORE & validate when appropriate, and re-attract your WAS. It's as simple as that. You ask how? Be upbeat, light, breezy, and fun. No more Eyeore chit. Being confident and breezy is very, very attractive.


Also, I don't fully understand the connection of the idea that "...the LBH needs to come down HARD on the WAW..." and the LRT/37 rules. How are we to "come down hard" when we don't have much contact? In your case, there's no OM. Are you absolutely sure about that??! Most LBHs are VERY, VERY fearful and delay in taking the first and most important step: pulling out the no-OM boundary speech. They drag out reasoning that it will just "push W away" which is whack because the W is already emotionally checked out of the M. Our main point is get your balls back and stand firm on the no-OM boundary.

If this is covered in the other posts let me know.

Thank you for the help & guidance!

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Originally Posted By: Wonka
In your case, there's no OM. Are you absolutely sure about that??!

Yea like it could be an imaginary one only in her head - like the character in a book, for instance.


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Like IOM or IOW? Gee whiz...I thought I had a good imaginary friend in my childhood years. wink

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Hopefully this is not a dumb question, but what is the NO- OM boundary speech? Maybe some examples?

Also, what if there is no actual proof of OM, but lots of suspicious activity? Does the LBH act as is there is OM in his dealings with W?


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Quote:


Questions from Mahhty:

Sandi & Wonka.
I've done my best to employ LRT and the 37 Rules. I've done well in some areas and less in others. That is the price of learning and changing. Regardless, I am moving forward.

The above addresses a WAW with OM. What about a WAW without OM? How does the thinking change if at all?



Some of you may remember two very wise posters here -- wife and husband -- Greek and Coach. Sadly, we lost Coach over a year ago to a way-too-early death, but these two successfully pieced their marriage back together (with the help of God and of this DB community), and were kind enough to share much of their work here with us on the forum.

Greek did NOT have an affair -- she was a classic "Walkaway Wife." I found their approach interesting because even though there was no infidelity, it was still a very strong stance that Coach used (including a hardball legal stance) to re-attract the Greek.

I wish I would have saved more of their stuff (although I'm sure you can find it archived on here if you look), but I did save this in my own personal archives:



What Greek says Coach did to win her back:

I will tell you what Coach did to win me back - after I left our home and filed for D. He stopped doing all the other things that got me to the point of walking out of the door. He stopped trying to arrange my reactions. He stopped trying to control what I would think or do. He stopped telling me how I should feel. He stopped telling me what would happen if... He dropped the rope and said WITH HIS ACTIONS: "Greek, I can see that you are hell bent on leaving for reasons that you have made abundantly clear to me. Some of those reasons have merit and I will deal with them for my own sake. But I can't keep you here and I won't try. The action I will take is to work on areas in my life that have contributed to the difficulties in our R and other R in my life; I will begin to take care of myself in a way I have neglected for some time now (GAL); I will handle protect myself against the legal action you took against our M; I will conduct myself with strength and honor." This was and is totally attractive! It's strong. It's confident. It's respectful - both of me and of Coach.

It's not about 'doing nothing.' It's about doing what works - putting the ACTION in the right place.

Greek




Last edited by Starsky309; 03/31/15 03:57 PM.

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Great read...Thx 4 posting it starsky


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Joe,

Here's one we worked with Dev last summer in which he sent an email response to his WAW. I've cut out irrelevant parts.

Originally Posted By: Joe406
Hopefully this is not a dumb question, but what is the NO- OM boundary speech? Maybe some examples?


Dear WAW,

I want to be clear on some things. One is that I do not want a divorce, but will not stand in your way should you choose to continue on this path. Two, I am not willing live in an open marriage with a third party.

We will not be friends should you decide to proceed with a D. Make no mistake -- if you choose to end our marriage this way, by continuing your affair with OM. It is incredibly disrespectful to me, to our marriage and our family. We will co-parent our children, and I will of course be civil and courteous, but this isn't how 'friends' treat each other.

Going forward starting now, as long as you are involved in an affair with the OM, our communication only be focused on the logistics of the children's schedules, their issues, and exchanges.

We have some decisions to make here. When you’re ready, please let me know your thoughts.

Sincerely,

Devaste


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The only change I would make is add this line:

Should you decide proceed with a D, you need to know that we will not be friends after divorce.

If I recall correctly, Mrs. Starsky has told him that the one thing that she was deathly afraid of was losing his friendship. I believe this is all true for WASes.

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Woah. This is really good information. Thank you Wonka, Starchy & Cadet. I greatly appreciate it!

Originally Posted By: Wonka
In cases where there's no OW or OM, the game plan is this: GAL, do genuine 180s on some of the legitimate complaints from your WAS, use your ears MORE & validate when appropriate, and re-attract your WAS. It's as simple as that. You ask how? Be upbeat, light, breezy, and fun. No more Eyeore chit. Being confident and breezy is very, very attractive.


I have been implementing this, but I will now make this my entire playbook. Thank you Wonka!

Originally Posted By: Cadet
Yea like it could be an imaginary one only in her head - like the character in a book, for instance.


Cadet - Over an 8 month period prior to leaving, I asked multiple times, she has always been consistent and stated no. However, this life event change has brought about a person I don't fully recognize. But I will continue to assume that she didn't lie to me.

Originally Posted By: Starsky309

What Greek says Coach did to win her back:

I will tell you what Coach did to win me back - after I left our home and filed for D. He stopped doing all the other things that got me to the point of walking out of the door. He stopped trying to arrange my reactions. He stopped trying to control what I would think or do. He stopped telling me how I should feel. He stopped telling me what would happen if... He dropped the rope and said WITH HIS ACTIONS: "Greek, I can see that you are hell bent on leaving for reasons that you have made abundantly clear to me. Some of those reasons have merit and I will deal with them for my own sake. But I can't keep you here and I won't try. The action I will take is to work on areas in my life that have contributed to the difficulties in our R and other R in my life; I will begin to take care of myself in a way I have neglected for some time now (GAL); I will handle protect myself against the legal action you took against our M; I will conduct myself with strength and honor." This was and is totally attractive! It's strong. It's confident. It's respectful - both of me and of Coach.

It's not about 'doing nothing.' It's about doing what works - putting the ACTION in the right place.

Greek


These two sound inspirational. I will find their posts and read up. Thank you Starsky!


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That is amazing. I hope I've gotten that message through to my W. She's no longer involved in an A, but I still compete against him in her head.


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BD 9/9/2014
Piecing

Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood

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Great Wonka. Thank You.

Any thoughts on proceeding if there is no actual proof of OM. Granted my situation, W is still WW in her behavior with her job.


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Originally Posted By: mahhhty
Woah. But I will continue to assume that she didn't lie to me.

I think this is a bad assumption and goes directly against
what I tell you about

"Don't believe anything she says," and half of what she does.


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I wanted to swing back here and clarify a bit more about what I meant by "coming down HARD on WAW" as we don't want LBHs to misunderstand these comments.

Coming down HARD on the WAW doesn't mean that one has to be a jerk nor take a scorched Earth approach to DBing. In fact, it's to the contrary with calmness, firmness, and clear-headed confidence.

What it means by coming down hard on the WAW actively involved in an affair with the OM is doing the following as soon as you arrive here in DB:

1-pull out the no-OM boundary speech
2-quit all pursuing, letters, flowers, gifts, sex, sharing the MBR

This shows WAW that cake-eating is not an optional extracurricular activity with your blessing (i.e. wet noodle appeasement).

Coming down HARD on WAW is communicating clearly to her in no uncertain terms that you are NOT okay with living in an open M and backing it up with James Bond-cool ACTIONS.

No more wet noodle chit like pursuing her, pleading her, showing her how unhappy you are, bending backwards to accommodate her shifty changes, etc.

We've seen FAR toooooo many LBHs fritter away valuable time and energy on supplicating to the WAW with needy and clingy behaviors/actions. And some wet noodle, cringe-inducing comments along with those behaviors.

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Originally Posted By: Joe406

Any thoughts on proceeding if there is no actual proof of OM. Granted my situation, W is still WW in her behavior with her job.


Joe, I'll re-post the same advice given to mahhhty:

Originally Posted By: Wonka
In cases where there's no OW or OM, the game plan is this: GAL, do genuine 180s on some of the legitimate complaints from your WAS, use your ears MORE & validate when appropriate, and re-attract your WAS. It's as simple as that. You ask how? Be upbeat, light, breezy, and fun. No more Eyeore chit. Being confident and breezy is very, very attractive.

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Originally Posted By: Cadet
Originally Posted By: mahhhty
Woah. But I will continue to assume that she didn't lie to me.

I think this is a bad assumption and goes directly against
what I tell you about

"Don't believe anything she says," and half of what she does.


Cadet - I have come to terms with the idea that she could be lying. But where she has been out of the house since Nov and there has been no mention of OM by her or her family (I can't speak to if there is an IOM), shouldn't I progress down the no OM path?


Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2
M - 8/2008
W is not happy - 1/2014
W wants D - 9/2014
W moved out - 11/2014
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Regarding cooking: I do most of the cooking in the house. And up until about a month ago, I still used to cook for the WW.

Sometimes I make food in large portions (like a pot roast) and she will ask if she can eat.

I don't want to be a jerk but I think this is cake eating also. What's the best approach to this situation?


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Good! Thank You Wonka! So I have been doing this right lately. Other than the Eyeore chit? Not sure what that is?


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Eyeore = character that exclusively portrays pouty, grumpy, woe is me, storm cloud follows you type behavior
Chit = expletive for poop.

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Got it! I knew what Chit was! But had not heard about Eyeore! Thought maybe it was a typo!!LOL!


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Although I am doing alot better now, I think my health has gone downhill since all this started. I don't know what I would have done had I not found this board. The help and advice I have received here has helped tremendously! Just this morning, I almost had another panic attack. But was able to calm down and remember what I was told here. I do have medical issues that need to be addressed because of all that I have dealt with. At least I am not waking up every morning stressed out. For the past few weeks, I have been very happy and energetic in the morning. I think it drives my wife nuts, but I am happy. smile


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Originally Posted By: Wonka
I wanted to swing back here and clarify a bit more about what I meant by "coming down HARD on WAW" as we don't want LBHs to misunderstand these comments.

Coming down HARD on the WAW doesn't mean that one has to be a jerk nor take a scorched Earth approach to DBing. In fact, it's to the contrary with calmness, firmness, and clear-headed confidence.




x 2.
Confident, civil, calm. LEAD.


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M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
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At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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^^^ Exactly!


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Quote:
My first question is why do you think the WS doesn't know?

It wasn't that I thought she didn't know, it was that I wanted to make it clear that I did love her. I hoped that she would understand how much I cared about her by saying it and it would change her mind.

Quote:
Second question, why does it matter so much to you to tell the WS one more time?

I was feeling panicked and overcome with emotion and then the thinking stops. I just basically blurted out ILY!! It was a last second touch down pass attempt.

Quote:
Third, do you believe it will cause the WS to have second thoughts, or what?

I didn't believe so much but hoped that she would respond with a "Oh you really do love me?! Well then let me just change my mind and work on our M"

Quote:
And fourth, do you believe it really matters to the WS, if they are in an A and/or have filed for D?

The last time I told her I really wasn't thinking about the OM or that she had filed, these things could be changed. I didn't want to lose her or our family. The reality of the situation never reared its ugly head when I was telling her ILY.

Now that I have had some distance since this last time and worked on my feelings and seeing her as a WW (thanks to these threads) it becomes clear how weak I appeared and acted. I felt that standing up to her feelings for the OM and the D saying ILY was a move out of confidence and not fear. At that moment I felt I was being strong and confident.

In my mind I was that captain on the crows nest of the ship facing the raging storm in all my glory. In reality I was the cabin boy holding on to a life preserver, crying, and the only reason I was facing the storm is because I was the passenger.

I don't think there was anything I could have done in the immediate past to change how my M ended. I had my chance at this when the W admitted to OM. I was too weak and too excited to get back in the M to set the boundaries that needed to be set. She was no contact for a while and was happy to hand me her phone, but things changed.


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I'm a bit late to the party with this one, but I wanted to answer the questions you posed Sandi - about telling your WS you love them. I felt a strong need to do this recently when my H suggested we D. I think it really depends on the sitch, and it may well not have been the right thing for me to do according to DB criteria, but it certainly helped me a lot.

In my sitch, I moved out as soon as my H disclosed his A. And for a couple of months, I initiated contact with him and he told me details about the A, said he loved me, was still confused and so on. I may have said I loved him during that time too.

But then I discovered DB/DR and 'dropped the rope' in October. I haven't seen H since last August, and we have only spoken once by phone since October.

When he suggested D, I guess my big worry was that with the 6 months of consistent DBing, he may have thought I had truly stopped loving him. And I needed to tell him that I love him and that D isn't what I want.

I know that showering WS with 'I love you's' isn't a good idea, but it has helped me feel more at peace that I have now told him. To answer your questions. No, I wasn't sure that he did know I love him anymore. I've probably explained above already why it mattered so much to me. Third, I have no expectations that it will lead to second thoughts, but it has helped me to tell him. And fourth, I'm not sure that it would really matter to him at this stage.

But now I feel, if he files for D knowing that I love him, I can better accept it. My big worry was that I DB'd my heart out and he filed for D, and I never told him how much I still care. Fear I guess....


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I think that if an ILY did come out of my mouth, it would be as an explanation of why I am still standing, why I haven't walked away yet. I wouldn't expect a response to it. Not an emotional plea. (now - it has not always been this way, only lately. Prior to my 3rd or 4th kick in the gut, I was still throwing ILY around like it would make some kind of statement, and make a difference)

If she were to give me an ILY, it seems to be to get a reaction from me, I have not been reciprocating. In the past it was a common thing to say every day (prior to BD).

I believe it is not necessary to say at this time - she knows but just does not care. I do not believe just those word will change anything (that would have been an easy fix then - right? There's the magic bullet)


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The last ILY in my world actually came from WW. I was shocked when she said it first.

It was near Valentine's Day, only a month post bomb. I had brought home some flowers the day before and she didn't notice them on the counter in the vase.

The next morning she comes into the MBR, she was sleeping in the spare room by then, and said thank-you for the flowers and apologized for not noticing them the day before. Then she leaned over the bed in hug moment and said she loved me. I did say it back to her. Maybe it was a momentary crack in the fog? Who knows for sure?

But nothing since then.


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FWITW, Coach & Greek were not softies in their advice to others, especially whenever there was an A involved. I remember their advice to the LBS was to tell the WS they had two weeks to find another place to live! They each gave this same advice every time. Greek, (who had been a WAW) may have even been just a bit tougher on the WAS, than Coach. Maybe it was just cause I liked her, IDK, but she didn't give slack to the WW. Some of you LBS's would have thought they were coming down too hard, but if only you would kick the fear and take as firm a stand, I think you would see better results.

They were much respected on the board, and I wished I could have met them in person. It is seldom that we have a WAS who is not in some type of A.

Cadet mentioned the imaginary OP. I did not have a specific imaginary OM, I went with whatever I was watching or reading at the time. I suppose you could classify me as a serial cheater in fictional affairs, b/c I sure did do a lot of it. For years, I read romance novels and watched the movies that fed my desire to have that type of man in my life. I was unhappy in my MR and starved for passion, and so my mind went wild reading those novels. This may sound silly to some of you men, but let me tell you, it can set the stage for other things. How can a woman respect and feel the loving, romantic emotions for her H if she's constantly comparing him to a fictional hero? The H will come up short every time, b/c of her mental attitude. I'm not saying the next time you see a woman sitting in a doctor's waiting room reading one of those books that she's prepping for an A........but you just never know what goes through a person's mind. I have not touched or looked at another romance novel since that year I became involved in an EA. I wouldn't even sell them in a garage sale. blush Threw them out with the trash.

Changing the subject back to why some LBS have an intense urge to tell the WS "ILY", I appreciate the responses. Perhaps there are some others who want to reply to the questions I asked.

In the meantime, I want to ask another question, especially to the men. Awhile back, I asked a similar question on one of the LBH's threads. It drew some really good answers. As a woman, it helped me understand better why they felt some of the fear they experience. With that in mind, I want to narrow it down a little more and ask why do some of the men "fear" their W getting angry? They'll do almost anything to keep her from getting into a bad mood. crazy

Fear is the word I read in post after post from newcomer men. They fear their W's anger. Especially the really "nice guy" types fear upsetting the W, and will walk around on egg shells and tolerate her bad treatment rather than say or do anything that may possibly rile the "princess".

IMO, that is why she goes around ruling the kingdom and treating you as the boy who is in charge of dumping her chamber pot. See? Told ya, I use to read those books!



So talk to us, men. What makes you weak in the knees at the thought of your W getting angry/upset? Be honest and spell it out.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted By: sandi2

In the meantime, I want to ask another question, especially to the men. Awhile back, I asked a similar question on one of the LBH's threads. It drew some really good answers. As a woman, it helped me understand better why they felt some of the fear they experience. With that in mind, I want to narrow it down a little more and ask why do some of the men "fear" their W getting angry? They'll do almost anything to keep her from getting into a bad mood. crazy


In the early days post bomb it was about hope for me. I was worried that if she got angry, she would leave, never to be seen again. I was scared that I might push her over some imaginary line and she would never come back to me. I needed that little bit of hope i was clinging to.

After I found this board, read the books, and started to calm down a bit I found some my lost confidence. Once I found out the extent of her online flirting and multiple EA's I put my foot down and told her she had to leave, that day. And she did. It felt so good to stand up for myself.


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The fear is easy. For me I didn't want to anger her because I felt like I would then be contributing to her leaving. Anything that pushed her away further, caused by me, I could feel it being a huge regret in the future . It's one thing to have your W leave and you powerless to do anything, but thought of making a mistake that pushes her fully out of reach is unbearable.

It's the mindset of us nice guys thinking if we do everything right we will get to that goal to reconcile. If we don't do something right its then our fault.


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Originally Posted By: sandi2
For years, I read romance novels and watched the movies that fed my desire to have that type of man in my life. I was unhappy in my MR and starved for passion, and so my mind went wild reading those novels. This may sound silly to some of you men, but let me tell you, it can set the stage for other things. How can a woman respect and feel the loving, romantic emotions for her H if she's constantly comparing him to a fictional hero? The H will come up short every time, b/c of her mental attitude

I believe some men do the same thing when watching pornography or looking at "hollywood" types on television. They form a vision in their mind of how they want their W to act that is unattainable.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
What makes you weak in the knees at the thought of your W getting angry/upset? Be honest and spell it out.

What I feared was that she was just looking for the one reason to leave me again and file for D. I was scared that if I upset her it would be the straw that broke the camel's back.

I am non-confrontational by nature. I don't argue, I think it is counter productive. If I am not emotionally attached to someone I will just let them vent and stare at them blank faced. But with my XW I felt that her mood was directly effected by my actions.

I a nut shell I was scared that if I made her angry and she was in a bad mood then why would she want to be married to me. She wants to be with someone who makes her happy, i.e. the OM.


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Together: 10y
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Married: 7y
Son:6 Son:4
Separated: 12/28/13
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I don't know about other but I look at it this way:

When she left, she was angry/upset at me. Because of things I did or didn't do.

Making her angry/upset would only put her back in that state of mind.

The state of mind where she decided to put into action her plan of getting out of the M.


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
"I want to have cats back" 5/4/15
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Originally Posted By: sandi2

In the meantime, I want to ask another question, especially to the men. Awhile back, I asked a similar question on one of the LBH's threads. It drew some really good answers. As a woman, it helped me understand better why they felt some of the fear they experience. With that in mind, I want to narrow it down a little more and ask why do some of the men "fear" their W getting angry? They'll do almost anything to keep her from getting into a bad mood. crazy


For me, I was looking to do something, ANYTHING to get a positive reaction from her. Kind of like what the others are saying. I figured that if I only did things that made her happy, she'd change her mind and want to stay.


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Originally Posted By: Sandi2
What makes you weak in the knees at the thought of your W getting angry/upset?


Shame

And guilt

The WW levels all kinds of criticisms at the LBH to blame them and justify and we believe it all. And what they don't say our badly hurt egos fill in the gaps especially if the LBH is a 'nice guy'

We don't want it to be true and fear it might be so we massively overcompensate.

we've also learnt that when you've done wrong that grovelling apology is the way forward.

Don't rock the boat, be nice and maybe you'll be forgiven and maybe she will give you another chance....

It ignores the reality of a wayward wife but the LBH is desperate they have just had the meaning ripped out of their life, their value destroyed and they believe theyve failed and its their own fault

Guilt and shame.

(Just my opinion though)


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I agree with the fear of her leaving. I know everytime we argued I would be the one to make up first so she would not be mad and leave. I wasn't always like that. I remember our early years together, I spoke my mind and that was it. I did not have a big conversation trying to justify my feelings. I also remember when we had a bad argument, I told her that is he was not happy, she knows where the door was. She remembers that also. I was wrong to say it and it hurt her. But I also think I was acting out of fear of her leaving and tried to control the situation.


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Originally Posted By: sandi2
FWITW, Coach & Greek were not softies in their advice to others, especially whenever there was an A involved. I remember their advice to the LBS was to tell the WS they had two weeks to find another place to live! They each gave this same advice every time. Greek, (who had been a WAW) may have even been just a bit tougher on the WAS, than Coach.

I love this.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
For years, I read romance novels and watched the movies that fed my desire to have that type of man in my life. I was unhappy in my MR and starved for passion, and so my mind went wild reading those novels.


Published this week in the journal Mass Communication and Society, the study suggests that the more stock people put in the as-seen-on-TV portrayals of relationships in their favorite shows, the less likely they are to be committed to their own relationship. If, for example, you place a lot of emotional weight on the fact that the characters in Burn Notice would take a bullet for one another because they are so very much in love, you may be more likely to question how happy you are with your significant other, who can’t even be relied on to clean up their own dishes in the sink, let alone leap in front of a terrorist’s gun to save your life.

I've been concerned about it because my WW is an avid reader of novels and a keen watcher of romantic movies and TV shows. I believe it had an impact on her decision to S. In fact, she quoted stuff like Sex and the city to explain what she expects from love.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
So talk to us, men. What makes you weak in the knees at the thought of your W getting angry/upset? Be honest and spell it out.

I am not very fearful of that and my W is cordial and only got upset at me once since BD, so I have less to contribute. There were a few times where she was not happy with my decisions — no stroller dropping in my backyard, gotta take the kids on her birthday, can't see D7 in person on birthday — but I stood my ground and it never went further.

It seems normal human nature to expect people to deny us what we want when we upset them. In a couple, when your spouse is upset, she won't help you, she won't have sex with you, she won't go out of her way for you, she won't be warm, etc. So the reflex to avoid anger is normal... in a normal M.

I think the fundamental mistake of the LBS is to miss that the laws of physics have changed the day that the WAS announces his/her desire to separate. None of the previous tactics work and in fact they are counterproductive: I love you, being nice, making love, etc. The WAS has become someone who doesn't want to be loved by the LBS. It works like where you get romantic interest from a coworker, a friend, a stranger — anyone that you don't love in return. It's just unpleasant and unattractive.

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The fear is that the WAW will get so mad, that there will be no hope for any reconcilliation.

Choice = Doormat or Integrity


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Sandi,

I think you may have missed Maybell's bat signal to mosey over to Danigirl's thread. FYI, Danigirl is a WAW who recently stumbled here and is here in the Newcomer's forum. She really could use a kindred spirit like you. smile

Originally Posted By: Maybell
Sandi, can you check out Danigirl's thread? Thinking she really needs you.

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Thanks Wonka. And thanks to all of you who shared your thoughts on the subject of fearing to make the WAW/WW mad. Since most everyone replied that it was the fear of her leaving, does that mean none you nice guys were anything like this pre-bomb day?

Not saying any of you were, but we all know someone who has turned into a passive ball of putty, in attempts to not cause waves and put their S in a bad mood. I am talking about long before there was a bomb. Perhaps most of their M together?

I want to copy and past a post from Sherman's thread. This was an article on emotional bullies. Hope all the LBS will take notice.



10 Signs Your Girlfriend or Wife is an Emotional Bully
Does your girlfriend or wife yell, scream, and swear at you? Do you feel like you can’t talk to anyone about your relationship because they just wouldn’t understand? Is your relationship making you feel like you’re slowly going crazy?

If so, you’re probably involved with a woman who is an emotionally abusive bully. Most men don’t want to admit that they’re in an abusive relationship. They describe the relationship and their girlfriend/wife using other terms like crazy, emotional, controlling, bossy, domineering, constant conflict, or volatile. If you use words like this to describe your relationship, odds are you’re being emotionally abused.

Do you recognize any of the following behaviors?

1) Bullying. If she doesn’t get her way, there’s hell to pay. She wants to control you and resorts to emotional intimidation to do it. She uses verbal assaults and threats in order to get you to do what she wants. It makes her feel powerful to make you feel bad. People with a Narcissistic personality are often bullies.

Result: You lose your self-respect and feel outnumbered, sad, and alone. You develop a case of Stockholm Syndrome, in which you identify with the aggressor and actually defend her behavior to others.

2) Unreasonable expectations. No matter how hard you try and how much you give, it’s never enough. She expects you to drop whatever you’re doing and attend to her needs. No matter the inconvenience, she comes first. She has an endless list of demands that no one mere mortal could ever fulfill.

Common complaints include: You’re not romantic enough, you don’t spend enough time with me, you’re not sensitive enough, you’re not smart enough to figure out my needs, you’re not making enough money, you’re not FILL IN THE BLANK enough. Basically, you’re not enough, because there’s no pleasing this woman. No one will ever be enough for her, so don’t take it to heart.

Result: You’re constantly criticized because you’re not able to meet her needs and experience a sense of learned helplessness. You feel powerless and defeated because she puts you in no-win situations.

3) Verbal attacks. This is self-explanatory. She employs schoolyard name calling, pathologizing (e.g., armed with a superficial knowledge of psychology she uses diagnostic terms like labile, paranoid, narcissistic, etc. for a 50-cent version of name calling), criticizing, threatening, screaming, yelling, swearing, sarcasm, humiliation, exaggerating your flaws, and making fun of you in front of others, including your children and other people she’s not intimidated by. Verbal assault is another form of bullying, and bullies only act like this in front of those whom they don’t fear or people who let them get away with their bad behavior.

Result: Your self-confidence and sense of self-worth all but disappear. You may even begin to believe the horrible things she says to you.

4) Gaslighting. “I didn’t do that. I didn’t say that. I don’t know what you’re talking about. It wasn’t that bad. You’re imagining things. Stop making things up.” If the woman you’re involved with is prone to Borderline or Narcissistic rage episodes, in which she spirals into outer orbit, she may very well not remember things she’s said and done. However, don’t doubt your perception and memory of events. They happened and they are that bad.

Result: Her gaslighting behavior may cause you to doubt your own sanity. It’s crazy-making behavior that leaves you feeling confused, bewildered, and helpless.

5) Unpredictable responses. Round and round and round she goes. Where she’ll stop, nobody knows. She reacts differently to you on different days or at different times. For example, on Monday, it’s ok for you to Blackberry work email in front of her. On Wednesday, the same behavior is “disrespectful, insensitive, you don’t love me, you’re a self-important jerk, you’re a workaholic.” By Friday, it could be okay for you to Blackberry again.

Telling you one day that something’s alright and the next day that it’s not is emotionally abusive behavior. It’s like walking through a landmine in which the mines shift location.

Result: You’re constantly on edge, walking on eggshells, and waiting for the other shoe to drop. This is a trauma response. You’re being traumatized by her behavior. Because you can’t predict her responses, you become hypervigilant to any change in her mood or potential outburst, which leaves you in a perpetual state of anxiety and possibly fear. It’s a healthy sign to be afraid of this behavior. It’s scary. Don’t feel ashamed to admit it.

6) Constant Chaos. She’s addicted to conflict. She gets a charge from the adrenaline and drama. She may deliberately start arguments and conflict as a way to avoid intimacy, to avoid being called on her bullshit, to avoid feeling inferior or, bewilderingly, as an attempt to avoid being abandoned. She may also pick fights to keep you engaged or as a way to get you to react to her with hostility, so that she can accuse you of being abusive and she can play the victim. This maneuver is a defense mechanism called projective identification.

Result: You become emotionally punch drunk. You’re left feeling dazed and confused, not knowing which end is up. This is highly stressful because it also requires you to be hypervigilant and in a constant state of defense for incoming attacks.

7) Emotional Blackmail. She threatens to abandon you, to end the relationship, or give you the cold shoulder if you don’t play by her rules. She plays on your fears, vulnerabilities, weaknesses, shame, values, sympathy, compassion, and other “buttons” to control you and get what she wants.

Result: You feel manipulated, used, and controlled.

8 Rejection. She ignores you, won’t look at you when you’re in the same room, gives you the cold shoulder, withholds affection, withholds sex, declines or puts down your ideas, invitations, suggestions, and pushes you away when you try to be close. After she pushes you as hard and as far away as she can, she’ll try to be affectionate with you. You’re still hurting from her previous rebuff or attack and don’t respond. Then she accuses you of being cold and rejecting, which she’ll use as an excuse to push you away again in the future.

Result: You feel undesirable, unwanted, and unlovable. You believe no one else would want you and cling to this abusive woman, grateful for whatever scraps of infrequent affection she shows you.

9) Withholding affection and sex. This is another form of rejection and emotional blackmail. It’s not just about sex, it’s about withholding physical, psychological, and emotional nurturing. It includes a lack of interest in what’s important to you–your job, family, friends, hobbies, activities–and being uninvolved, emotionally detached or shut down with you.

Result: You have a transactional relationship in which you have to perform tasks, buy her things, “be nice to her,” or give into her demands in order to receive love and affection from her. You don’t feel loved and appreciated for who you are, but for what you do for her or buy her.

10) Isolating. She demands or acts in ways that cause you to distance yourself from your family, friends, or anyone that would be concerned for your well-being or a source of support. This typically involves verbally trashing your friends and family, being overtly hostile to your family and friends, or acting out and starting arguments in front of others to make it as unpleasant as possible for them to be around the two of you.

Result: This makes you completely dependent upon her. She takes away your outside sources of support and/or controls the amount of interaction you have with them. You’re left feeling trapped and alone, afraid to tell anyone what really goes on in your relationship because you don’t think they’ll believe you.

You don’t have to accept emotional abuse in your relationship. You can get help or you can end it. Most emotionally abusive women don’t want help. They don’t think they need it. They are the professional victims, bullies, narcissists, and borderlines. They’re abusive personality types and don’t know any other way to act in relationships.

Life is too short to spend one more second in this kind of relationship. If your partner won’t admit she has a problem and agree to get help, real help, then it’s in your best interest to get support, get out, and stay out.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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I feel quite unwell reading this. Queasy and unnerved.

Please let us look at the statistic on abuse. 1 in 4 women are abused. in some counties that rises to 40%. Whilst some men are abused the percentage is between 3 and 8% and 50% of that is same sex abuse.

To encourage men to be assertive is quite one thing but what is being proposed here is labelling criticising and bullying. I see this as unhelpful.

Having recently been subject to such abuse myself and the only control that I have is how I behave and react then the descriptions given to men to encourage them to control their W are truly awful. Many W are unhappy anyway and this is unlikely to reverse that.

I am very convinced that abuse is about control, inflammation by racking up these so called generalised behaviours and applying them carte Blanche is irresponsible.

IMHO we must never label, blame or criticise W , H or another, it is the behaviour that needs help. The idea that the male in the R is the BOSS is nauseating and repugnant. And no I am not there to do a JOB. Any woman or man subject to this boorish and dominating attitude even in the work place would have my full support to sue for abuse. This is control at it's very worse.

All we should change is ourselves not control another and their supposed Job.


If any W was treated that way then walk away girlfriend. I do not care what you have done, get out of the clutches of such a controlling megalomaniac. And they may appear to be strong words but actually they are very weak and insecure. Bullies are often very insecure.

We all need boundaries and to get stronger but this is truly horrible to read. Have I gone back 100 years in time?

V


Edit - That post has been removed as per writers request

Last edited by Cadet; 04/02/15 11:17 PM. Reason: message

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Just to add clarity in my situation... my wife attacks the person (she can get quite foul) and not the behaviors. She's borderline personality disorder (maybe bipolar too) and it's been extremely difficult to deal with in our marriage. She's also threatened my S7's well being to get me to capitulate to her demands. It's even been recorded in my situation.

I'm absolutely not advocating that someone should physically or emotionally abuse another... that's guaranteed disaster. If you look at the real statistics on men in emotionally abusive relationships, it's quite a bit higher than what was listed.

What is being advocated is for the LBH to stand up and realize that he can survive and prosper no matter what. That he doesn't NEED his wife. But would prefer the marriage.

From the quote above...
Quote:
In other words, when you tell your wife that you expect something from her, you have to MEAN IT.


Taken out of the rest of the context of the book, I can see how this looks bad/controlling. You'd have to read the book for the rest of it. Relative to this though, it must be done with love & respect or it's control. Very big difference.

Last edited by Sherman333; 04/02/15 03:39 PM.

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BPD and bipolar are clinical diagnosis. If you W has been clinically diagnosed then perhaps treatment is appropriate and I trust she is receiving this and has made that decision. I will read your sitch soon so I understand this.

However what is appropriate for the minority 1 in 500 bipolar is inappropriate for the majority. Scherman, if this is the case then indeed you need every support we can give you to deal with this. And I give you unreservedly my strength. I am very interested in stats can you point me in the direction of your research paper on male abuse? Mine come from the Healing Hurt report on abuse in 2006. If there is a later study then I would find that useful.

I believe in acting from love, even when enforcing boundaries love is a requirement. And yes we must mean our consequences when we enforce boundaries. Enforce consequences on our reasonable boundaries of course, control and insist on jobs being done? Really? This could never be done with love and respect! This is like doing 'something for your own good, because I love you' discipline.

For a very opposite view examine Al Turtles Master Slave discussion.

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 04/02/15 04:15 PM.

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The books premise is building attraction in marriage. If you haven't read something along these lines, it helps to explain some of the dynamics in place. It is written in a language geared at men so they would understand the point. By "boss" the book defines it as leadership earlier. Same with "job".

If there's anything in the quote that doesn't come across as clear, I'd ask Cadet (or other mod) to edit it and remove it, but try to keep the basic message that the LBH needs to not beg, grovel, plead, etc. To stand up for his life in a positive way. Yes I meant life.


Last edited by Sherman333; 04/02/15 04:24 PM.

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Neither should any LBS, male or female!

V


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Quote:
Neither should any LBS, male or female!

Agreed!

The problem with this type of communication (or email, texts, etc.) is that it leaves some much to interpretation. We all have our own personal lens or bias. It would be much easier with a face-to-face discussion. wink


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Originally Posted By: Vanilla


Please let us look at the statistic on abuse. 1 in 4 women are abused. in some counties that rises to 40%. Whilst some men are abused the percentage is between 3 and 8% and 50% of that is same sex abuse.


Those figures don't sound right to me. Everything I've ever read says that incidence of male abuse (from their significant other female) is WAY underreported, and MUCH higher than most people commonly think.

and the "1 in 4" figure sounds very high as well. What threshhold is that researcher using to qualify as "abuse?"


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From Wikipedia:

Estimation difficulties

Determining the rate of IPV against males can be difficult, as men are often more reluctant than women to report their abuse or seek help.[4][9][10] One of the reasons for this is that IPV against men is generally less recognized by society than IPV against women.[3][1]:1 Additionally, heterosexual male victims of IPV are often judged harshly for "allowing" themselves to be beaten by a woman. This view is based upon the general rule that men are physically stronger than women, and, therefore, should be able to prevent any kind of female violence; a view which disregards that violent women tend to use objects during IPV at a higher rate than violent men.[11][12]

Another reason men are often reluctant to report victimization concerns socio-cultural stereotypes of masculinity; male victims of IPV often hide their suffering due to fear of being judged negatively by others, and/or having their masculinity questioned.[1]:6 For some men, this evasive behavior is based upon the fear of being ridiculed by friends or co-workers, by shyness in dealing with peers and/or with (non-violent) women, and by fear of people saying that the woman is the real victim, and must have been acting in self-defense.[2][13] For a man to admit he is the victim of female perpetrated IPV necessitates the abandonment of the veneer of machismo which society expects from men, and to admit being submissive to a female partner. For some men, this is an admission they are unwilling, or unable, to make.[14] Some researchers have also demonstrated a degree of socio-cultural acceptance of aggression by women against men, whereas there is a general condemnation of aggression by men against women. This can lead to men not considering themselves victims, and/or not realizing the IPV they are experiencing is a crime.[9][15]

Furthermore, some studies have shown that women who assault their male partners are more likely to avoid arrest than men who attack their female partners,[16] and that female perpetrators of IPV are often viewed by law enforcement agencies and the courts as victims rather than offenders.[17] As such, men fear that if they do report to the police, they will be assumed to be the aggressor, and placed under arrest.[18][19] The 1985 U.S. National Family Violence Survey, carried out by Murray A. Straus and Richard J. Gelles on a nationally representative sample of 6,002 couples, found that when a woman called the police to report IPV, the man was ordered out of the house in 41.4% of cases. However, when a man called, the woman was ordered out of the house in 0% of cases. When a woman called, the man was threatened with immediate arrest in 28.2% of cases; when a man called, the woman was threatened with arrest in 0% of cases. When a woman called, the man was threatened with arrest at a later date in 10.7% of cases; when a man called, the woman was threatened with arrest at a later date in 0% of cases. When a woman called, the man was arrested in 15.2% of cases; when a man called, the woman was arrested in 0% of cases. In fact, in 12.1% of cases when the man called, the man himself was arrested.[20]

All of these factors contribute to a very low level of male reported IPV.


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V, this supports your "more than 1 in 4 women" statistic. It also supports the "male abuse (by a female) is far more prevalent than most people think" premise (Source: TheGuardian.com):


About two in five of all victims of domestic violence are men, contradicting the widespread impression that it is almost always women who are left battered and bruised, a new report claims.

Men assaulted by their partners are often ignored by police, see their attacker go free and have far fewer refuges to flee to than women, says a study by the men's rights campaign group Parity.

The charity's analysis of statistics on domestic violence shows the number of men attacked by wives or girlfriends is much higher than thought. Its report, Domestic Violence: The Male Perspective, states: "Domestic violence is often seen as a female victim/male perpetrator problem, but the evidence demonstrates that this is a false picture."

Data from Home Office statistical bulletins and the British Crime Survey show that men made up about 40% of domestic violence victims each year between 2004-05 and 2008-09, the last year for which figures are available. In 2006-07 men made up 43.4% of all those who had suffered partner abuse in the previous year, which rose to 45.5% in 2007-08 but fell to 37.7% in 2008-09.

Similar or slightly larger numbers of men were subjected to severe force in an incident with their partner, according to the same documents. The figure stood at 48.6% in 2006-07, 48.3% the next year and 37.5% in 2008-09, Home Office statistics show.
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The 2008-09 bulletin states: "More than one in four women (28%) and around one in six men (16%) had experienced domestic abuse since the age of 16. These figures are equivalent to an estimated 4.5 million female victims of domestic abuse and 2.6 million male victims."

Last edited by Starsky309; 04/02/15 05:50 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Vanilla
Neither should any LBS, male or female!

V


On that we can ALL agree!


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I'm not going to wade in on the topic of the prevalence of men and women in abusive relationships, but Vanilla brought it up in regards to the quote below that Sherman shared from some un-named source.

I realize that it may have been taken out of context but I gotta say, I'm in full agreement with Vanilla that it made me queasy. And I thought it was....gross.

Edit - post removed as per request

Last edited by Cadet; 04/02/15 11:22 PM. Reason: message

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Quote:
Remember what I said... "you must be willing to sacrifice a THOUSAND women before losing a single shred of your dignity".


The context relative to this quote is that a husband should not allow himself to be demeaned, there should be mutual respect, or his marriage will fail.

Stirred the pot with the quote. confused

If it's causing an issue, MODs, please modify.

Last edited by Sherman333; 04/02/15 06:13 PM.

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Originally Posted By: raliced
I'm not going to wade in on the topic of the prevalence of men and women in abusive relationships, but Vanilla brought it up in regards to the quote below that Sherman shared from some un-named source.

I realize that it may have been taken out of context but I gotta say, I'm in full agreement with Vanilla that it made me queasy. And I thought it was....gross.



I agree, taken as it's written, it made me cringe too. eek

Last edited by Starsky309; 04/02/15 06:10 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Sherman333
Quote:
Remember what I said... "you must be willing to sacrifice a THOUSAND women before losing a single shred of your dignity".


The context relative to this quote is that a husband should not allow himself to be demeaned, there should be mutual respect, or his marriage will fail.

Stirred the pot with the quote. confused

If it's causing an issue, MODs, please modify.


I appreciate that Sherman - I guess, from the way that it is written it didn't seem like it would lead to an atmosphere of mutual respect - hence part of my issue with it. I certainly agree that any H or W shouldn't let their spouses walk over them or be disrespectful- which it sounds like we all agree on.


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Caveman times....

We're so past those times!

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That's the problem with a section vs. the whole thing.

The sections in the book above the portion I quoted talk about forgiveness, respect, etc. But the entire book is focused on generating attraction (or chemistry if you prefer) in a committed relationship.

The quote is probably too long and the original intent of posting it seems to have been lost based on everyone's reactions.

I notified the mods to look at it and adjust it as needed.


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Look Sherman, the mods do not need to adjust anything. This is a debatable point and posters are free to express their opinions on this subject as long it's respectful and does not veer into offensive territory. We are responding to what is being posted here and are not mindreaders.

While this is an important topic to discuss, it feels that we are going off in a different direction away from Sandi's thread for LBHs.

Let's all get back to the regularly scheduled program, shall we? smile




Last edited by Wonka; 04/02/15 06:32 PM.
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I wrote a long post on stats, skewing etc but the best report is the CDC report in the US from 2011. Of course the Freedom report in the UK is 2013 and excludes guns. Very tedious so I deleted it. as long as one person is subject to this it is one too many.

I personally think this sort of debate is very healthy and Scherman I think your post should stand as it is. It is very important indeed to understand when an M is violent and standing has less value in the short term. Thank you for the opportunity to review the issue.

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 04/02/15 06:57 PM.

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My biggest concern was that Sandi's threads are SOOO important for newcomers to understand that I didn't want to away from their message.


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We can start a new thread sometime to discuss this and other mancave issues and copy some posts across. I have also posted on your thread.

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 04/02/15 08:36 PM.

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V, find my henhouse thread and move it over there. This is exactly the type of stuff i was talking about.

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Thanks to 25yearsmlc, I am re-posting this here:

Healthy painfully honest discussion going on here.

Bravo to all engaging in it.

Here's a letter from a WAW to an LBH (not hers, but another guy here) and she's replying to his question of why his wife won't return, now that he's changed...

See if any of it could have been written by someone you know.



FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments.

I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from.

When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.

You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.

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Wow. Just wow, that us some good insight into wife's mind whether with another man or just checked out. It almost seams insurmountable for her to ever come back to the place where she can truely love Her husband again.
Dig in boys and man do I still have work to do!

Last edited by hwkies; 04/02/15 11:33 PM.

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Sandi- getting back to you on why guys are afraid of their WWs...

For me it was because I believed I was deeply flawed and broken, and I had her on a pedestal. And we had a codependent R where I used her approval and love for a long time to reassure myself that I wasn't all terrible. Like "as long as this good woman can love me I must not be beyond redemption".

So when she would be critical, judgmental, or disapproving of me it had the opposite effect. I felt that it proved I was a horrible guy and I suffered a LOT. Then, after a long time, I'd grow resentful for HER MAKING ME feel that way. And I'd start to realize that I'm not all terrible, she shouldn't treat me this way. But I wasn't able to work this through maturely, so I'd let my resentment build and I'd withdraw so I wasn't exposed to more of her hostility.

I guess when you rely on someone else for your self esteem it hurts when they condemn you.


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I'm pretty sure I have been labeled the abuser in my r, he did call me craze, overly emotional, nasty. Yes in a way I did ask for needs to be met but any needs I had and asked for there was always a no fault reason why I was selfish even needing it. A justifcation.

He threatened my s17, and hit him, called me heaps of abusive names and gas lighted, yet I was crazee.
As other said he did it because I allowed it and by forcing me to try to stand up he could make me look crazier. Me by trying to set boundaries of saying you don't stop absuing it's finished made me the bad guy and meant he could hand on heart say he was the good guy. It was that no win dance, to which like v's h he is still justifying why h was right in h abuse of s17.

We learn to leave those patterns of behaviour behind, thus changing things in the future.
Giving us a better outcome, there are no good guys or bad guys, just humans.


M 46 h54
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With due respect Scherman, no one makes anyone else feel anything. We first have to "buy in to the view". Good or bad we need to buy in, to agree before we either raise ourselves up or put ourselves down.

We believe what is said, my H told me that I was fat and unattractive. I bought it because I had put on weight and so Plain Vanilla was born. Ms frumpy dumpy. When H said something that I did not buy, "V you are the most selfish person in the world ever". I dismissed it. I allowed those thoughts of H to define me because I adopted it, a better stance would have been "yes H I have put on weight but I am ok with who I am". I learned from the amazing Gg, I got some kick ass shoes and a red convertible and let Plain Vanilla go. Gg advised me as she has you and I listened.

Sherman WW can behave as if she can treat you any way she wants, say what she wants but at the end of the day it is up to you to say "no" "enough" "stop", to take responsibility for yourself. Abuse is wrong full stop, of course it is, and to me it sounded originally like blame the abused, blame the victim. And I did not like it. I felt I had a right to be treated well and I was not and therefore it is H fault. Of course H could chose to of his own accord behave with respect like my past partners but the fact is he hasn't.

It is a self evident truth that until there are boundaries, consequences and we say "no more", that others will often do what suits them. If that is unwanted then "stop". At 60 years of age I learned this. I learned to say "unacceptable" even if I feel like a Plain Vanilla at the moment, still unacceptable.

This is why I say "I will not be abused" rather than "you are an abuser" or " please stop abusing me". I neither label H or give him the power. Stopping abuse is a new tool for me in my toolkit and it can be used on other screwballs as well as H. I will not be abused by them either. Lesson learned higher power thank you.

V


Last edited by Vanilla; 04/03/15 09:48 AM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
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And yes nilla you say something better than me.

The I will not be abused it a good one.

My kick a$$ shoes and hawt dress was born from the idea h expected me to turn up to collect my possessions and either

a beg and plead
B seduce him.

Wel, he knew I was coming ss saw me and spoiled the suprise. I did however take the option h did not expect which was turn up keep it short and leave before his abuse could start.

I did steal the line, oh look is that the time I have somewhere to be, I'm already late.

Which is what h always accused me of being late. wink as I drove away I saw him literally spinning circles in the rearveiw mirror. whistle

It was powerful, regardless of what h felt, it felt good to take back the decisions and be me as unpredictable as that is.

Last edited by Ggrass; 04/03/15 09:57 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Zues126


For me it was because I believed I was deeply flawed and broken, and I had her on a pedestal. And we had a codependent R where I used her approval and love for a long time to reassure myself that I wasn't all terrible. Like "as long as this good woman can love me I must not be beyond redemption".


This is pretty spot on. If I had anything to add that the overwhelming feeling of being unwanted has paralysed me from action. The crumbs of affection to keep me on the hook have made it possible to believe that maybe there has been hope for our marriage and that maybe I am not completely unlovable. I am finally starting to see things a little different thanks to you guys.


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This is a long post, but I think it has value in this discussion.

Quote:
no one makes anyone else feel anything. We first have to "buy in to the view". Good or bad we need to buy in, to agree before we either raise ourselves up or put ourselves down.


I absolutely agree. My wife is an emotional abuser when she doesn't get her way. She wasn't typically able to get me to react that much, especially at the end. I was also putting boundaries up on her bad behavior with the kids/me. Calling her out on cussing or when she got in the kid's faces screaming. I physically pulled her back a lot and got her to focus on me.

The part I did was to repress my anger; which led to me going into a depression. I knew things weren't right and every time I tried to bring it up, I'd been shot down. Where I should have done better would have been to force the issue for S7 sake. But I'm not sure I'd have been in a position to get physical custody like I am now... some things happen for a reason. But I consider this to be my biggest failure in the marriage.

I remember very clearly thinking that there was no way in hell I was going to do what she was screaming explicatives/personal attacks at me to do (even though I was willing to do it if she's asked nicely) and then doing something else on a regular basis. as As an example, Last summer the kids (there were 4 boys last year, 3 foster and our biological son) and I fished a lot on our lake (caught some good bass too! ;)). I was the buffer between her and the kids. She is a very cold/fake person and puts up a good facade. Life with her has been all about her... there is no room for anyone else's want's dreams or desires and this should not be this way in a healthy marriage.

In my professional life, I'm quite successful. I'm a Chief Engineer for North American Advanced Engineering and have some global responsibilities. I work at an $8.4 Billion dollar company. When she'd attack me and tell me how horrible I was at XXXX or YYYY. I'd bring up that it wasn't true because of what I do at work (in charge of $120 million projects for instance, being 1 of 5 going into a global management fast-track program, etc.).

Or at home how I rebuilt our lives from our first marriages. In my first divorce, everything I owned fit under another man's basement stairs. Between us we really didn't have anything. She had a house she'd forced her 1st husband to remodel and it was in studs when I married her. I ended up rescuing her from it and decimating my savings in the process when the market crashed. To where we live now... a house on a lake with 150ft of lake front.

When there was a spew session, examples like my work or successes at home would make her attack even more and she'd genuinely try to destroy any confidence I had. The arguments fed the beast so to speak and she'd try harder to beat me down and would get soo mad that she'd slam/break stuff or go drive around sending me hate texts.

I tried to envision myself as the rock and letting her crash against me. But I was angry with her about the relationship dynamics. So I have my own issues with the IC to work through which are different from the first time around. My current STBXW is much closer to my mother's behavior. Even my Dad agrees I married my mother in this one.

There was a lot of things I let go, that I loved doing, when we first got together because of the fights. She expected me to keep her entertained (how draining) and over time I lost who I was. Heck, I even remember telling her early in the marriage that we need to get her some hobbies because I couldn't do it constantly. She also decimated a lot of my friendships or wouldn't let us socialize with other people. Again, this should not be this way in a healthy marriage.

Can we say HUGE warning signs?

My STBXW decimated her older son's (mid 20s) confidence/self worth when he was growing up and he wants NOTHING to do with her period.

For the mother of my child, I allowed things like this to happen that I should not have... just to avoid the spew, abuse, personal attacks, and hate speech. It was easier to exist with it than to change it (again a failure on my part). So in many ways, this is a favor for the rest of my life and S7's life. I just need to learn new behaviors and understand my triggers.

The IC and I have talked about managing my impulsivity when it comes to relationships... that this is where people get themselves in trouble.

I can also say, that I was seriously contemplating divorce myself last year. I almost started something that I shouldn't have, but made the choice to stick it out for S7 and FS8 sake, but didn't do anything to change the fundamental dynamics of the relationship and I should know better from what I learned in my first marriage (different type of personality than the current wife). I'm not sure what I could have done against her brick wall besides leave.

Quote:
Sherman WW can behave as if she can treat you any way she wants, say what she wants but at the end of the day it is up to you to say "no" "enough" "stop", to take responsibility for yourself.


Agreed. But in my case, a lot of the WW behavior occurred constantly over 7 years. My SIL is convinced that if the W had not been pregnant (she wasn't supposed to be able to have kids), then I would not have married her based on stuff that happened when we were dating.

Quote:
Abuse is wrong full stop, of course it is, and to me it sounded originally like blame the abused, blame the victim. And I did not like it. I felt I had a right to be treated well and I was not and therefore it is H fault.
...
It is a self evident truth that until there are boundaries, consequences and we say "no more", that others will often do what suits them.


I'm not appeasing her anymore. We were at war weeks ago and she didn't know it. As she's found out the preparations I put into place, she's reacting/bouncing around trying to find the chink. Unfortunately, the only one is through S7. For this, I have to get physical custody and I came to terms with loosing it all to make that happen. He's an innocent in this and we both deserve a lot better in our lives.

Quote:
it can be used on other screwballs as well as H


That cracked me up and I got a good laugh with this line. laugh


New thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2593214#Post2593214

Last edited by Cadet; 08/01/15 02:15 PM. Reason: Link

Me: 45 W43
S7, Foster S9 (Planning to adopt post divorce)
D mentioned Feb 2015, Wife served 3/24/2015. She moved out 4/15/2015.
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