I am not sure how many threads this makes ... I think the fact I do not count is in line with never putting a time frame on this sitch, one of the lessons I have learned is fo any change to stick and take hold, the alterations must be subtle adn consistent to actually turn into change. I believe this will be the same with W, I just have to see her doing the work and making progress, stay patient and keep myself a safe distance to allow her to continue to do the work .... rushing in would only slow her progress and I truly want her to get out of the fog regardless of if we save the M or not.... hence the title .. to remind me to keep my side of the street clean and stay focused on what I have been working on.
Little update: Last night W and I switched nights, she had a "Moms night out" event from the school. I do like the events the school will do, I think its healthy and builds good relationships between parents and I also think its great for W as she is a bit introverted and doing things out of her comfort zone will help her grow (I do keep this all to myself ofcourse) So another night for S and I, good night but as I mentioned last thread post he had a tummy ache, we ended up crashing early, W TM to say goodnight to him as she was still out with the ladies while I was putting him down a little after 8. I went to sleep too ... woke up to 3-4 TM, a couple from her around 9-9:30 telling me she just got home, was going to shower and asked if we could talk, another asking if I was awake ... then around 5 asking me again if I was awake .. and another asking if I was mad at her. I woke up and realized I am doing better .... I could have easily assuned she was out wiht OM but I did'nt ... It never crossed my mind honestly, I replied to her that I just woke, fell asleep with S .. asked her how it went. We had a 30 min TM convo about her night, her working out. She shared with me that she wants to compete in body building ... this one is new, she sent a picture of some woman she follows on instagram and said that was her goal .. chick was shredded W told me she thinks she can get her body there its her mind that is 'broken' I was supportive and told her I thought it was great she works out. (I am not so sure about the whole competition thing but if that's what she want and it makes her feel good about herself ... why not.)
I let her go, had to get S up and going ... dropped him off and as usual I waited until she invited me in, we chatted a bit and she gave me her 'look' and told me she knows I am still guarded and understood, bit on the hugs lately ... was never like this since BD honestly. She asked about my move and the dog (big on the dog the past month or so .. alot of guilt there as the dog really aged this past year) I told her I was looking forward to the move, going to buy the dog a nice bid kennel where he could be there or outside. She told me about a potential new job, risky but as we discussed nothing wrong with interviewing and getting a better feel for both them and her, I think a new start would be a good thing for her honestly. She was concerned that its contract and she might be homeless if they didnt hire her. She asked if I supported her in this move, I told her I think she should atleast interview if her heart is leaning that way, trust it .. might have been placed in front of her for a reason, she then again said "What if I'm homeless?" I told her with a smile .. well ya know I am buying that nice new Kennel ... maybe Tommy (the dog) would not mind sharing. She laughed and smacked me, took my cue and left to go to work.
She is making a point of reaching out and contacting ... this one is new, also sharing things she is thinking about. I am still guarded, detached, just watching her from a far really ... focused on the move, I ordered all my kitchen stuff ... knives, plates, toaster, silverware. Lots and lots to do still but I think this move will be great as I am about to strangle the crazy-lady roommate ... 7 more days .. 7 more days .. lol.
something that I do actually fear will be somewhat changed if this thing does actually pan out
Yeah, I think that's an honest concern, Cali. The thing is, if you stick the tracks of your life, keep things in perspective and realize that if she wants to be part of your life, she'll try and won't quit, you'll figure out the rest as you get there.
If I had to put a soundtrack to it, I would look to the Santana track, "Make it real, or else forget about it." Even if a little out of context That's a two-way street. Just because she says she wants to work on things, and even though she's trying, I think that would be the guiding principle. Too much that you have worked for to risk, including your son. The thing is, you aren't really taking a risk at this point, nor do you need to. You literally have nothing to lose, since she's already gone at this point in time. If, and only if, she really tries to make things work and connect, you are in the position to decide if that's what you want as well. You have that choice to use wisely. You also have the schooling to make it so.
That's why I suggest taking your time. What you're waiting for is a two-fer - 1) is she really interested in working on the relationship? and 2) Are you going to keep the changes you worked so hard to attain? Both of those are time-consuming to find out. Not a drain, but it takes calendar time to figure out.
I suspect the latter is already a done deal. The former is yet to be seen. I don't want to jinx things, but in your position I'd want to know it's me and a relationship that she wants vs. making things right ONLY. I doubt she really knows. Yet. Lots of emotions and feelings. Lots of damage to work on. And lots of change to the "old" ways, especially for her. It's true what they say - the old marriage is dead.
That said, it's not an easy road. For her especially. She has a lot of catching up to do and will need to keep the train on the tracks. You've seen the difficulty with that and you have less to deal with directly.
But if you take your time AND if she is really committed, the ups and downs will quickly pass into history. There will be ups and downs. Progress and slips into the old ways. On both sides. The key is to work through them and stay committed during those times.
If you haven't yet, read up on Raine's adventures. Her reconnection was not an easy road and she chronicled some of that. It'll give you a glimpse that it's not a rosy trek, but rather a long journey.
Go slow and you'll make room later if needed. Believe that.
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
AJ ... you do not need me to tell you how brilliant you are. As usual you are spot on with the above post. I have read Raines 'adventure' ... been awhile and I may need to revisit. I do find myself still detached, for good reason I believe and yeah, all the work I have put in over the past year and a half ... most the good stuff I would say the last 6 months I never intend to lose regardless of the state of my M.
I have some things I feel I need to share, maybe its to get it off my chest, maybe its to get the opinion of those here whom I have come to admire,trust and cherish. As much as I wish all my posts were quick and to the point I know I write longer than normal ... I just feel that its hard to leave things out when they are important to me... so please be patient.
I need to share some back story, before I got here, to be able to share how I am feeling currently.
2008-09 ish The W had been going through some health issues (along with being laid off during the bad economic times) and arrived at a point nothing was working so out of desperation she went to a holistic doctor. Started a very strict diet. While over the next few years this seemed to improve her physical health I noticed mentally, she started to change. I chalked it up to the withdrawal from all the drugs she was on and stopped cold turkey, thought possibly Bi-Polar setting in as MIL and SIL have both been diagnosed. Knowing what I know now ... may have been the earlier stages of MLC, this was all around 2011 ish. With all this there was little to no sex, nothing for about 3 years prior to BD, no physical contact, nothing. Guess whose LL is physical touch ... yep this guy. So I did start pulling back emotionally, would surf around online, watch TV, play video games downstairs while she went to bed early. I own my role in this fully.
Fast forward to Jan13, W admits OM, but says its not cheating because we are separated. lots of arguments, and touch and goes the next couple months, W tells me she wants to work on us, then would be back with OM ... MAR13 on the sunday prior to St Patricks day, I am on my way up to L.A. to visit BIL in jail, showing W that I am changing and willing to be part of the family (180 before even touching the DB/DR books) she calls me in tears and informs me that she thinks she may have a STD. I joke and tell her that is not possible as we have not had sex in 3 years, oh wait .. holy -censor are you place your own expletive here - kidding me. She was scared and did not know what to do so I calmly told her she should go to the Dr and get checked out, she asked if I would go with her, I told her that since OM gave her that gift he should man up and walk her through it ... I was done. That day I had a talk with FIL, and 2 BIL (the one in jail and BIL1) but never told them aobut OM let alone the STD ... I should get the "poker-face" 2014 award. The following Monday SIL called me and begged me to be there for W, said she was suicidal, she regretted all she did but needed me now more than ever, told me that I had not really been there the past couple years and this was a way to be the H I should have been ... basically guilted me into being there with W. W called soon after and begged for forgiveness and said she needed me. So I went .. 17MAR14 , on a Monday to our family Dr, I was in the room with her holding her hand as the Dr confirmed herpes. She flipped out, I think I was just more stunned than anything. Then anger of the betrayal really set in the following days, not having sex for 3+ years and it takes 3 months for her to be miraculously healed and sleep with OM, in our bed and contract herpes, the following days she swore she was done, but shared they had the condo and that's where it happened, on our bed .... turns out OM was still married but not happy, W same sitch so as the story goes on these boards they were both made for each other ... bla bla bla. So the MLC was strong in her back then .. however I had no idea about it, she was convinced it was not OM that gave her this as he had been married long term, he accused W of sleeping around, she then realized she slept with someone in college 20 some years ago (She Dear John'd me back when we were dating about 3 years in while I was in the Gulf) and the virus must have been dormant all this time ... yes .. she full on believed this to be true.
Fast forward to now, a year later MAR15 W had just talked to her Dr and this issue again was discussed, seems all those emotions W did not deal with have surfaced and she has been dealing with them the past couple days. I am not sure if this happened prior to the weekend talk we had or if its just part of her dealing with the damage and trash that has built up over the course of the crisis. I have been calm and detached as she is talking about her feelings, she is VERY apologetic for the pain she caused me. However, I remain detached ... been through this one a few times and am not sold on her being done with OM let alone over him. She did eliminate him off FB yesterday, I assume its more out of the rage she admitted of feeling towards him for the STD, she is dealing with the anger. I told her last night that we would not be able to work on anything until that chapter of her life was closed and she was over it.
Ok, so all this being shared, W seems to be really trying to connect with me, however its sharing the hurt from the above and I realized she is just using me because I have always been who she runs to when scared. And yes uR I know .. I am Mr Fixit, I have chained that part of me up to a street light, I can not fix her, I can not bring her out of this, this is her walk and she needs to do it by herself. Honestly at the moment as AJ hinted .... its ironic in a way,.... I am not one not really certain if I want to commit to the R just knowing all the work she still needs to do, knowing its not an overnight thing, I still have my life to live. I have been kind, she has shared some things and after thanking me for not getting mad, but what I have not shared is , one I have worked on my anger, and two ... its easy not to get mad when you are not really allowing yourself to be emotionally invested anymore ... all that spew, all the nasty things said and done, I have her in a place where it would be hard for her to hurt me, and I am not certain that I will allow her out of that place to be honest. The one thing I will have to address and work on is the sexual betrayal, I get we had issues and she did not feel connected, but just to be replaced that quick and share herself in that way .... its a pill I just need to accept, swallow and let go.... just like all the other things I have worked on its less and less painful the more I work at it, I expect this pain will always be there in some way ... I think there are things we all have to endure and some of these we just never really and truly ever completely get over, this one is mine.
Ok .. so yeah .. thats me sharing the innermost stuff .. its where I am, its where this crisis has brought me to.
The good thing is you know where you are in your own mind and what the struggles will be. I can only say be true to yourself. know your strengths and know your limitations. I think all you have learned will guide you through this part of your life.
I have an EXBIL whose wife cheated on him. Now they are still married but he holds this over her head and I would say the marriage will never be healed. The reason I bring this up that if you eventually want to make it work it will have to be from this day forward. Easy enough to say but not easily done. Forgiveness is the key to many things in life, unfortunately the key is not used often enough.
I wish you the best in whatever your choices may be.
Hey Luke. First of all, never apologize for your posts or the length of them. They are yours to write however you wish. Honestly, the more info we have, the better we can help.
Secondly, that AJ really is a smart one.
Ok, Luke, I want to say this...please dont get ahead of youreslf. That just leads to frustration and a host of other stuff. No need to worry about if you can get over the affair at this time, right?
What I am hearing is that you dont like that she is coming to you with the hurt she is feeling from getting the STD. You do know that you dont have to listen to that if you dont want to, yeah? That is something she needs to come to terms with, although it is something you will have to come to terms with also down the line.
An interesting thing happens often on this journey. It is not until we are really detached, that the spouse moves closer. They feel that. And yea, we sometimes get to a place where we arent sure if the marriage is still what we want. So, that's all normal, Luke.
As far as the sexual betrayal...it's important to understand that it didnt have to do with you. That's not to say that those issues in your marriage werent real. They were. But, a healthy person wants to find a solution to them and that solution should not be having an affair.
But understand that it isnt a pill you have to swallow. It will, if you decide that she is really wanting to restore the marriage, need to address it. Cant sweep it under the rug or that just comes back to bite you. But you do have to eventually let it go.
I can feel you getting a little scared, Luke. I get that. You wonder about your newfound closeness with your son. You wonder if her changes are real and whether you can ever trust her again. You are worried about things going back to the way they used to be and worried about whether you even really want this anymore.
I believe that you will figure it all out, Luke. It will become clearer to you in time.
As I said, dont get ahead of yourself. Nothing has really changed right now, right? You are still on your path. Leave her to hers. Keep moving forward.
She really wants back in...she has to prove that.
I will tell you this. I have seen marriages come back from all of this. It was hard, I am not going to lie. They say it was worth it.
Whatever you decide, make the decision from a place of strength.
Yeah I touched on that a few weeks ago how I realized I need to let this go and not hold it over her.... even joked about it in a way thinking its the trump card for everything. My journey I have learned forgiveness is more about and for us than it is for them and when I first heard this I just could not wrap my head around it but then I realized it was about giving the WAS and the OP valuable head space that neither deserved, was about freeing oneself from that pain, accepting it for what it was and moving forward. And yes ... easier said than done, and like all growth its a process via marathon not a quick fix.
W called this morning on her way to work, 40 min conversation... I did have to enforce the OM boundary, regardless of how many times she says she is done she still has hurts and issues there, and has been in contact with him albeit to try to get information out of him concerning the STD issue (Apparently he is not sure who he got it from W or his W) so W is furious about the lies and the fact her health is now and will forever be hampered by this... OM's D is in progress and I think the MLC thing with W had her fantasy of both the D's going through and they would live happily ever after ... guess that fell like a house of cards over the past few months.
Again, W has been not shared much about OM, nor have I been very willing to hear about it till these past events as of late, I only allow her to vent in general but am quick to stop her when she goes to far, each time she is very receptive to that. I however am remaining detached and deep down know she has years of work to do, I do not want a R with her or anyone who intends to use me just a as crutch ... and I feel that is what W is doing at the moment. She has however continued to keep contact through out the day, but I suspect there will be a moment soon .. possibly this weekend or when ever I feel I need to I will have to reinstate my needs and boundaries with her, insist we take things slow. I feel if I had stayed in the house, she would be asking to return at this point, she continues to voice how her condo is dark, she hates it there, is depressed, does not want to be alone (again not mind reading but seems its more of a cry for help than a "I commit fully to this M and will do whatever I need to make things work") but I also understand she needs time to do this work on herself and regardless of the M I would want that for her. I would have and did jump at before I found this forum (newbie mistakes I made em all), but I am focused on continuing to grow personally as I REFUSE to return to the old me, the old M ... I want no part of that to be honest. This in such a crazy way was a gift, granted a pointed sharp nasty one that hurt like H E double hockey sticks .. but one needed for me to get 'here'.
I was typing my post ... in between interruptions and seen you have posted during that. Funny I did touch on a couple things you have brought up.
True .. I do not need to get over the A this instant and you have called me out before on this .. just like the other things if something does not happen on my self imposed timeline I voice it .. this is no different .. .you are spot on it as usual.
Yeah I am guarded, scared, hesitant ... been through this one before and I am not sure. Time will tell, as far as the STD ... my frustration is that we had issues with sex, always did ... I see now my role in that and handled it poorly ... however its frustrating as this is another hurdle in that issue, one that was hard enough as it was, one I would really like to just smack OM for ... wasn't enough to be put through the A, but now I have a lifetime reminder of it ya know? ... again ... something I will have to deal with, and in time like everything else ... but this is a big one for me and its better to get it out here, than share with W as she IMHO is just not ready to deal with MY issues as she has a plate full of her own at the moment, besides its MY issue to figure out, one that was created from this mess, still one that is sitting solely in my lap.
I guess at the moment as crazy as this sounds, I came to a point Cali 2.0 is always going to be a work in progress but I arrived at that point I knew I would be fine, possibly better off with it all behind me ... and yup ... just as they sense you are done and gone, the switch seems to flip in them trying to draw you back in, this is probably the 3-4th attempt however each time I have become stronger and this time I am not giving in, I know my needs, have my boundaries and am not afraid like AJ said .. nothing to lose she is and has been gone anyways. I would expect these things of anyone I intend to share myself with, I deserve that.
Yea, the STD thing...that really sux. I had to laugh at the OM and your w being angry about it. Really? Um, unprotected sex with someone you dont really know and both of you are married...and THEY are angry...gotta shake your head.
I have told you a couple of stories about me, I think, and how I handled my sitch. I kinda have a warped sense of humor. One time, the OW called my home. Xh must have told her I didnt live there any longer.
I answered the phone. She was angry....at me. Now I was not always a conventional dber....lol. She says to me, "Where is xh, please?" I said, "He isnt at home. He should be in shortly to have dinner with me. Shall I give him a message?" I could feel the steam through the phone. Ooops.
He comes home and he's angry. So, me being me, I say, "Oh, let me get this straight....MY husband is angry that his girlfriend called our home and is upset. Let's see. How many things are wrong with that sentence?"
Cali & uR... so much of this is hitting home for me. And yeah, hww was so mad at xh for going on vacation with his wife and kids. Xh said, "She didn't care that I went with the kids; she didn't want me to go with you." Umm.... you mean... YOUR WIFE? Oh, ok, then. And who is hww????????????????
Cali- totally get ya with the std thing, too. Xh had actually never even told hww. He is so scared of her. Any truth... he can't handle. It was right when he was starting to reach out when I had my surgery from it. He texted me to say hi and see what I was up to- didn't know I was at hospital. I told him I was just waking up from surgery. I got, "I'm sorry." Hww still does not know.
OK, sorry to hijack. I've been watching and cheering for ya. Still pretty fresh for me... don't have much to say, bc... I guess it's still pretty fresh. I know one thing I felt but never openly expressed was I remember feeling in a way, NO ITS TOO EARLY! I felt like I still had too much work to do on my own. But, I figured, since he did too, we could go slowly. Still on an independent journey. Needless to say, I think he needed me to do work for him. I didn't want to do that. I knew, like you, he had to do it. And show me, not tell me, that he was in it. He needed someone to tell him what to do. He would ask me all the time. I wouldn't do it. Hww on the other hand... she loved to tell him what to do. Still does, I presume?? Whatever. I guess my point is, Cali, you are way ahead of me. You have gotten further in Cali 2.0 than I did on the Mighty train. More like a Mighty maze.
Keep it cool, which I know you can. Don't get ahead of yourself. Remember when she says the words, don't let them fill the space... let the actions. You will see a lot of personal growth right now by making good decisions and being cautious.
I won't say too much, bc Lord knows I have got a lot to learn. But, I did learn a lot through that experience. You are doing great, my friend.
I have read Raines 'adventure' ... been awhile and I may need to revisit.
I think it is a great idea to read the threads of someone who actually went through a reconciliation process and reconciled their M.
It is interesting that LBS women want to ask questions about the OP, so they can put some closure on things, and LBS men generally don’t want to hear anything about OP. I might be wrong here, but just the observation.
Cali, you walking a very fine line here.
Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
I did have to enforce the OM boundary, regardless of how many times she says she is done she still has hurts and issues there
You wrote about enforcing the boundary in quite a few of you recent posts. It makes me think every time about the boundaries. I think I’m still not clear about where boundary starts and the “keep the door open” ends, and vice versa. I might not be making much sense here, but I remember my feelings (and thinking) when I brought up the difficulties with my first xh (father of my son) to my H, and he either would shut down or would let me know in some way that he would not want these kinds of conversations. Well, it was a different situation. I was not having an OP, I was just talking about my x. But, over time I learnt to keep my feelings to myself, which also created a lot distance and resentment between me and H.
Like I said, it probably doesn’t apply to your sitch. Your W hurt you deeply by having an affair. You have all the rights to not hear about OP or her feelings in relation to that. And I would totally agree with you enforcing your boundaries if she would be completely out of the tunnel and ready to do what it takes to reconcile. But… She is not at that place yet. And what I see is happening is that she tries to reconnect and find some understanding and support in you. And you… pushing her away while accepting her attempts and allowing her to be around, etc. My opinion, she is not strong enough yet. She still has a lot of work to do. This might actually discourage her from trying, because she is going to think that is it just impossible to overcome what she’s done.
M:50 H:52 S28 (my S from previous marriage) M:17 + 3 BD: 06/12 S: 06/12 - H works in another state
That's a two-way street. Just because she says she wants to work on things, and even though she's trying, I think that would be the guiding principle. Too much that you have worked for to risk, including your son. The thing is, you aren't really taking a risk at this point, nor do you need to. You literally have nothing to lose, since she's already gone at this point in time. If, and only if, she really tries to make things work and connect, you are in the position to decide if that's what you want as well. You have that choice to use wisely. You also have the schooling to make it so.