Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 10 11
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Link to last thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2548490&page=1

If you are just checking in, I hope you will begin with the first thread I started on the subject of a wayward wife. I am on my IPad and don't know how to paste both links, without getting lost. blush Maybe someone will do it for me.

With so much response, let's continue with the discussion of how the LBS should not feel, nor take, responsibility for the S's affair.


Series Links

Links to this series of threads

First thread
For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554&page=1

Second thread
For the Newcomer LBH who has a wayward wife Part 2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2548490#Post2548490

Third thread (this thread)
For the LBH who has a WW Part 3
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551039#Post2551039

4th thread
Guide for LBH who has a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551811#Post2551811

5th thread
Help for LBH who has a WW (new thread)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2593214#Post2593214

6th thread
Sandi's reflections
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2653323#Post2653323





Last edited by Cadet; 02/15/16 08:09 AM. Reason: Links

It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
There's a difference between feeling guilty for setting the stage and feeling guilty for the affair,


Exactly! Thanks, NH, for your input. I think it carries more weight for the men to hear this from other guys who have experienced the same ordeal with a WW.

Is it fair to say that any LBS could misplace some of the guilt they feel, to cause them to believe they are responsible for the WAS's affair (or other wayward behaviors)? From what I have seen in some threads, it seems this follows shortly after they do the deep self-examination. Perhaps it is a response to those feelings of guilt, and they don't see the lines clearly?



I'd like to take a crack at this one as well, over here on the new thread.

I think for a man, this goes to the very core of their role as "protector" of the family, their home, and of his wife. To get rocked by the bomb drop of unexpected infidelity -- coupled with a period of self-reflection (and perhaps coupled also with some choice words of spew and truth from their cheating wife) that reveals to them their own faults and the role that they may have played in creating an environment in which their wife could have an affair) . . . well, it just totally rocks your world.

YOU FEEL LIKE YOU FAILED in your role as protector, and now some PREDATOR has invaded your home, your family, your finances, your MARRIAGE, and yeah . . . there can be a lot of GUILT associated with that awful feeling. frown

So while one should never accept the responsibility or the blame for their cheating spouse's destructive decision to have an affair (they should have talked to you about how unhappy they were, and -- if that failed repeatedly -- they should have sought a separation or even a divorce before sleeping around) . . . I can at least understand why a man would.

The problem comes not just with the misplaced blame, btw, but more importantly with the strategic and tactical decisions that such blame causes the betrayed spouse to make. It totally skews their PURSUIT-vs.-DETACHMent motor, just to name one aspect.


Starsky

Last edited by Starsky309; 03/25/15 09:16 PM.

M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Ah, thanks sweetie.

In the last thread, Alpha asked some questions you all can answer. smile.
Since I usually post too much at once, I will paste his questions, and hope some of you will respond.

Quote:
Are there any points when the script becomes reality in your experience here, and how would one know when that moment has occurred?


Quote:
Do you know at what point this 'script' will be discarded and 'normal thought' might be resumed. I'm sure there is not an average time, so does it need to be a crisis moment or some other point?


Quote:
Your description of how a EA with co-worker becomes a PA described my WW's situation to a 'T'. If everything is all part of a process, as has been mentioned in the post between yours, what is the next step in the process once it has been established that the WW is following a script?


Quote:
I hope I haven't asked too many questions. I've tried to keep things general so that any answers help as many LBH's such as me.
.

My answers are intended to be general, also, which sometimes are taken the wrong way. So, specifics do help. wink


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 5,301
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 5,301
Well put Starsky!

Can I revisit this - "responsible for making happy" theme?

I think we all have a responsibility not to cause unhappiness for our spouses. By this I mean we know of examples where partners have been critical, angry, negative and so on. And I think these things cause unhappiness in the recipient.

So, I think there's a responsibility not to cause unhappiness for others in such ways. But I think the primary responsibility for happiness lies within ourselves. But it would be difficult to be happy with an angry, critical, negative partner if you see what I mean.

However, if you have a partner who is generally pretty nice, and 'good enough' and you are unhappy within yourself, that may well be more yours to fix.

Does that make sense?


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 788
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 788
Quote:


I'd like to take a crack at this one as well, over here on the new thread.

I think for a man, this goes to the very core of their role as "protector" of the family, their home, and of his wife. To get rocked by the bomb drop of unexpected infidelity -- coupled with a period of self-reflection (and perhaps coupled also with some choice words of spew and truth from their cheating wife) that reveals to them their own faults and the role that they may have played in creating an environment in which their wife could have an affair) . . . well, it just totally rocks your world.

YOU FEEL LIKE YOU FAILED in your role as protector, and now some PREDATOR has invaded your home, your family, your finances, your MARRIAGE, and yeah . . . there can be a lot of GUILT associated with that awful feeling. frown

So while one should never accept the responsibility or the blame for their cheating spouse's destructive decision to have an affair (they should have talked to you about how unhappy they were, and -- if that failed repeatedly -- they should have sought a separation or even a divorce before sleeping around) . . . I can at least understand why a man would.

The problem comes not just with the misplaced blame, btw, but more importantly with the strategic and tactical decisions that such blame causes the betrayed spouse to make. It totally skews their PURSUIT-vs.-DETACHMent motor, just to name one aspect.


Starsky


Starsky, you and Sandi keep spouting gold here. Both of you know the 2x4s you've had to apply to me on occasion because I kept pursuing. That pursuit was often clothed as losing my temper, begging, mind reading, and more, but it was all based on guilt. It kept me paralyzed. I'm still more reactive to W's emotional state than I should be. When she's calm, she speaks lucidly about our sitch, when she panics, it gets very ugly very fast. She knows my guilt buttons and has no problem using them.

I love your "predator" reference. Back when I was still making the mistake of attacking OM, I'd often refer to him as a "predator" or "home invader".


Ex Rzrback
Me 43 Her 44
D11, D15
T21, M19
BD 9/9/2014
Piecing

Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 399
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 399
Hi Sandi,

In response to your first post in this thread, I would have to say that I have swayed wildly between blaming myself for my W having her A and blaming her for physically engaging in it. I suppose it is different for everyone with regard to their personality, how 'strong' or 'weak' they are emotionally, the length of the A maybe, also maybe the length of the marriage.

If I give myself up as an example then things become circular: I am shocked and upset at my wife initially. She then says I drove her to it for reason(s) X. I wrestle with this but through high emotions come to agree she has a point. Emotions at this stage are volatile and when they wane I also feel anger at her. At this point (specifically for the A) we are both to blame. Things eventually start to settle in your mind and once again I blame only W for the A. I take responsibility for problems that lead to the A, but the choice to engage in one is hers.

In my own case I did actually say what was written in a post above, i.e. if you were unhappy with our R you could have talked about it or ended it. My W accepts this but refuses to be drawn on why she didn't take either option, and instead just says 'well, it's done now isn't it?'

I find the whole thing amazing. A woman who relatively recently would cuddle up, have intimate times together etc does seem to have been abducted by aliens and begins to behave in what can only be describe as highly illogical and 'strange'. I know she is responding to emotions but wow, the WS is a funny beast.


BD - 30TH JAN 2015
S - 30TH JAN 2015
PA CONFIRMED - 16TH FEB 2015 (SINCE AT LEAST OCT 2014)
CONTINUAL TALK OF D
ME: 31
W: 28
T: 10yrs
M: 4.5yrs
D:5, S:6
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Originally Posted By: Toots
Well put Starsky!

Can I revisit this - "responsible for making happy" theme?

I think we all have a responsibility not to cause unhappiness for our spouses. By this I mean we know of examples where partners have been critical, angry, negative and so on. And I think these things cause unhappiness in the recipient.

So, I think there's a responsibility not to cause unhappiness for others in such ways. But I think the primary responsibility for happiness lies within ourselves. But it would be difficult to be happy with an angry, critical, negative partner if you see what I mean.

However, if you have a partner who is generally pretty nice, and 'good enough' and you are unhappy within yourself, that may well be more yours to fix.

Does that make sense?


Yes, I totally agree with that and you've put it well, Toots. While it's not our responsibility to be their CAKE, but rather their FROSTING, it's also incumbent on us not to do things that deliberately RUIN their cake! Harley calls these "love busters."

Hey Vanilla, how'd I do on the metaphors, O Queen of the Metaphors??? grin

Last edited by Starsky309; 03/25/15 09:30 PM.

M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Originally Posted By: NH115


I love your "predator" reference. Back when I was still making the mistake of attacking OM, I'd often refer to him as a "predator" or "home invader".


Men and women that would knowingly get involved with a married woman or man, and prey upon their emotional weaknesses, ARE predators!! In every sense of the word. mad

I detest them. Do not "make friends" with them, do not expect them to deal honorably with you (for they are, by definition, DIShonorable) and do NOT take what they tell you as TRUTH!


Starsky

Last edited by Starsky309; 03/25/15 09:33 PM.

M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Now see how smooth Starsky could say all of that in a few words? It would take me pages, and you all would be trying to figure out what the heck I was saying. grin

Seriously, I appreciate any help you can give.

I sure don't want anyone to think I am saying I know how the LBS feels. One of the really good things about this board, is how we all learn from each other. I have learned so much from other people's experiences, and I continue learning.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Originally Posted By: sandi2


I sure don't want anyone to think I am saying I know how the LBS feels. One of the really good things about this board, is how we all learn from each other. I have learned so much from other people's experiences, and I continue learning.



You are far too modest, Sandi. You do have a WEALTH of experience to offer in how the wayward spouse feels, thinks, operates and justifies, and -- ultimately heals -- and that does open up an entirely new perspective for LBSs. It's a perspective that on my best day I cannot offer, and it is nothing short of a BLESSING that you are here.

I see now (and again, and again, and . . .) why the mods are always quick to point hurting newbies directly to your sage advice!


Starsky

Last edited by Starsky309; 03/25/15 09:39 PM.

M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 5,301
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 5,301
My H is both preyed upon and predator.

He is OM in OW's relationship and always has been.

As far as I know her OM is unaware. But he's half way around the world and I have no idea who he is - poor man.

OW/OM's R started as an A and broke his M up - then she cheated on him with my H.

I don't see her as a predator though. That implies a strength I might admire. I see her (and my H right now) as lost and emotionally weak.

Complex web of infidelity - and as I told my H - that's not my web and I'm not going to be in it!

Last edited by Toots; 03/25/15 09:42 PM.

T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Quote:

Can I revisit this - "responsible for making happy" theme?

I think we all have a responsibility not to cause unhappiness for our spouses. By this I mean we know of examples where partners have been critical, angry, negative and so on. And I think these things cause unhappiness in the recipient.

So, I think there's a responsibility not to cause unhappiness for others in such ways. But I think the primary responsibility for happiness lies within ourselves. But it would be difficult to be happy with an angry, critical, negative partner if you see what I mean.

However, if you have a partner who is generally pretty nice, and 'good enough' and you are unhappy within yourself, that may well be more yours to fix.

Does that make sense?


Oh my gosh, I intended to get back to that very subject.

So........take it away, Starsky. grin


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 399
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 399
If I may throw something in here, and I know I've asked a lot of questions already, but it's this: I have looked and looked through this site and elsewhere at how a LBH (or W for that matter) might implement the last resort technique when there are children involved. On the surface it would seem simple, keep contact to a minimum and only child related. In reality life is not so simple, particularly with children involved, and I wonder how feelings of personal guilt, abandonment of children, guilt implied by S, and other factors come into play when you are at this stage.

If this is not where you would like this discussion to go then please forgive me. At the same time if anyone reading this has any good resources relating to this then I would really appreciate them letting me know.

Alpha


BD - 30TH JAN 2015
S - 30TH JAN 2015
PA CONFIRMED - 16TH FEB 2015 (SINCE AT LEAST OCT 2014)
CONTINUAL TALK OF D
ME: 31
W: 28
T: 10yrs
M: 4.5yrs
D:5, S:6
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 788
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 788
Originally Posted By: Starsky309


Men and women that would knowingly get involved with a married woman or man, and prey upon their emotional weaknesses, ARE predators!! In every sense of the word. mad

I detest them. Do not "make friends" with them, do not expect them to deal honorably with you (for they are, by definition, DIShonorable) and do NOT take what they tell you as TRUTH!


Starsky


Sigh...If only my W would understand that OM did exactly that. She was upset one morning when he happened to be in town...she told him about her rocky marriage. He saw the opening and went for it. He could have listened as a friend and backed off, instead he saw it as his opportunity and exploited it. Despite all our apparent progress, she still doesn't see it. She still believes that he wasn't lying to her when he said he had a rocky marriage himself. He's willing to lie to his own wife, but wouldn't lie to his prospective AP? Geez. I know if I wanted to start an A I sure as heck wouldn't tell the woman that I had a happy marriage!

I had mentioned before that he had cheated on his W at least two other times in the 18 or so years he's been married. Infidelity is just how he rolls. "Slimeball" just doesn't describe him adequately. W says he's "lost" and "damaged" just like her. I do a lot of eye rolling inside my mind.

Oh, no chance I'd ever make nice with him. I think if I ever shook his hand I'd just go ahead and rip his arm off in the process.

Sorry. That was the longest I've talked about OM in weeks. I spiral easily...gotta stop that cool


Ex Rzrback
Me 43 Her 44
D11, D15
T21, M19
BD 9/9/2014
Piecing

Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Alpha, one way is to use things like Cozi calendars for all family scheduling, and even go so far as to use a trusted third party as an intermediary for all exchanges of children. CERTAINLY follow an agreed-upon, thorough parenting plan at a minimum.

It's more difficult when children are involved, but it can be done; one can go as dim or as totally DARK as they want, if they choose to.

Last edited by Starsky309; 03/25/15 09:47 PM.

M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,902
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,902
Originally Posted By: sandi2


Is it fair to say that any LBS could misplace some of the guilt they feel, to cause them to believe they are responsible for the WAS's affair (or other wayward behaviors)? From what I have seen in some threads, it seems this follows shortly after they do the deep self-examination. Perhaps it is a response to those feelings of guilt, and they don't see the lines clearly?



Just from my perspective, this is exactly what I did. While my W only had an EA as far as I know, she did attempt to start a relationship. I took my failures of not being there for her during the miscarriage and blamed myself for everything that was happening.

I now realize my situation fits what most people have, years of neglect on both our parts and growing resentment that allowed her to let another in her heart. The signs were there before the miscarriage that she was in an EA and I don't even think she realized it at the time.

Once I realized she was in the EA I blamed myself for it all. I felt tremendous guilt at what happened. This was also just after the deep self-examination phase. In my mind all I could see was everything was my fault and I pushed her into his arms.

I realize now the truth, I had my role in the breakdown of the marriage but she is responsible for her actions. She could have chose not to pursue those feelings, but she did.


Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 629
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 629
That makes alot of sense to me toots!!

Sandi, these are helping me a ton. I am learning alot about myself right now and also how my actions may have caused some hurt feelings in my marriage. But I in no way think a person has a right to get into a affair or any kind of infidelity. That was one of my points I was making awhile ago. In my situation, my WW has made it more difficult for us to R with the actions she is doing and has done. I had minor issues of trust with her before all this. Now I have MAJOR issues that will take a long time to work through. And we have the issue of intimacy ( if we should ever get there) and the thoughts of other men and the what she has said to them. In the past, I never ever thought I would have to deal with these kinds of thoughts from my W. If she would have packed her bags and said, I am leaving because I am unhappy and things need to change, it might be different. Still hard, but different.


Me:44
EXW 44
Wonderful Children
M11, T14
BD 6/14
OM Confirmed
Divorce Final 2/25/16
"It works if you work it!"

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Quote:
Oh my gosh, I intended to get back to that very subject.

So........take it away, Starsky.


And he did, but as you all can see, I'm too slow and can't keep up. By the the time my answer posts, it just looks nutty. crazy I will eventually get there.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Well I'll be off for a couple of hours, so you can catch up LOL!!

Sandi, you and I should write a book someday. We can ask MWD if she'll write the Foreward to it. We can call it something like "When It All Falls Apart: A Story of Betrayal and Redemption from a Former Wayward Spouse and Another Betrayed Husband" or some such! grin We could do like a back-and-forth thing with blocks of text, each giving our own viewpoints on the same thing.

Sorta like we're doing on here, now! smirk


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,523
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,523
I echo the sentiments above concerning the OM,OP for that matter, seems the WAS appears to be an easy target, maybe both are married and they from the "us against the world" type thing ... but yeah the LBS is not the one pulling the trigger on the A, as bad as a marriage could be there is an honorable way out if one has the courage to do so .. that's divorce before jumping into another R, after all the work one does after the BD its easy to see why so many of the As fail, that does not take away act though.


M: 48
W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Thanks Joe, it is really good to hear you say this about yourself.

We have mostly referred to affairs b/c that seems to be the common denominater across the board, however, as I have pointed out in my own personal waywardness, it is not limited to just a one-person-affair to qualify as a WW. It is more like she adopts a different lifestyle from her usual one. It's as though she is living a double life.

How much of a clash the two lifestyles cause, may determine how bad she crashes, IDK.

Referring back to Starsky's remarks about how the WW (and all that's thrown at him) affects the very core of a man.......I hope you caught it.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Quote:
If I may throw something in here, and I know I've asked a lot of questions already, but it's this: I have looked and looked through this site and elsewhere at how a LBH (or W for that matter) might implement the last resort technique when there are children involved. On the surface it would seem simple, keep contact to a minimum and only child related. In reality life is not so simple, particularly with children involved, and I wonder how feelings of personal guilt, abandonment of children, guilt implied by S, and other factors come into play when you are at this stage.

If this is not where you would like this discussion to go then please forgive me. At the same time if anyone reading this has any good resources relating to this then I would really appreciate them letting me know.


It's the perfect place. Those who have been able to use the LRT with children still in the home, would probably be more than I can. I can tell you this much, I have seen it done!

My SIL divorced her first H and they had two small children. The judge decided the schedule for holidays, visits, etc. there was no phone calls, texts, or emails. Didn't even have cell phones or home computers at that time. Yet, the world figured out they. Old co-parent without them.

She hated him, and if they ever spoke face to face, I never heard about it. She says they didn't. They had a third person to run interference, if absolutely necessary. They may have had passed notes back & forth by the kids, at swap time, IDK.

My point is that our society has become too dependent on mobile devices and having communication at their fingertips. Even today, my H and I don't make calls to each other during the day (unless one has been sick or for some percise reason) b/c we did not have those things available or grew dependent on them when we were younger, so we don't feel the need now. I get so amazed at how younger couples act these days. They can't get through the work hours without calling to see how the other one's day is going! They act so emotionally dependent on each other. What do they do If they are S and co-parenting, they are constantly contacting each other to "discuss" something of "importance" like reminding one of them to bring the kid's coat or there is a ball game, etc. It seems unnecessary IMHO, b/c I have seen it work without that contacting back and forth. It looks more like an excuse in order to get to make contact. You have a fixed schedule and that's that! None of this changing day from day. That's horrible. Unless there is a true emergency you don't contact the other parent, and have a third member to intervene, if possible.

If there is no chance of having someone run interference, then narrow it down to more than once a week to work out "logistics" (as all the parents calls it) and it should not be that often. Once a month is better.







It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Quote:
If there is no chance of having someone run interference, then narrow it down to no more than once a week to work out "logistics" (as all the parents calls it) and it should not be that often. Once a month is better.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 1
I'm grateful for this thread because there are a few things I understand about DB, but that's not one of them. Not yet.

Is the LBH responsible for his WW's affair?

I'll share my feelings, not the DB position. I do feel guilty about the A. I see that my WW had given me signals that she was unhappy in the R. In 2009, her cheating made me realize that she was willing to leave the M if she was unhappy. Yet, she told me she was unhappy in several ways and I ignored it.

In public, my position is that she found someone new because couldn't deal with the daily routine of a long term R. Inside though, I think of her email telling me she's "miserable" or the email earlier telling me that she sees an IC because of all the things in her life that make her sad and that I'm one of them. I can imagine her asking her friends: "How long do I have to deal with this? Is it normal that I feel this bad? Why am I walking on eggshells in my own house? Why do I feel better away from home? Why am I not happy to see my H? Why do I feel hate for him?" We say that M should be fixed until they can't. My W decided that she had reached the end of her rope.

Originally Posted By: Starsky309
(they should have talked to you about how unhappy they were, and -- if that failed repeatedly -- they should have sought a separation or even a divorce before sleeping around)

Isn't this what my WW did though? She met OM in mid-August. They quickly grew close and developed what I guess is an EA (no evidence). She realized her M was dead to her for a long time (had been complaining) and left me in early September. Then she developed a R with him and announced it to me in November. Didn't she do the right thing?

Originally Posted By: sandi2
We see all the time how actions of one spouse can make the other spouse very unhappy. Are we responsible for making them unhappy?

I struggle. I criticized my W profusely (apparently) and made her feel nervous around me. How is it that I could be such an a-hole and not be responsible for her feelings? She holds me accountable for her unhappiness and I feel sleazy claiming that I can't be, only she is responsible for her feelings. Yeah, right.

Reflecting on my failings as a H is one of the things that make me long most for WW, even as I feel more detached than ever. I regret making her feel bad and wish I could hold her in my arms and make it right. Someone else is in charge of that now. But I never think of writing her a letter, at least not as long as she's with OM.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: alpha99
I have looked and looked through this site and elsewhere at how a LBH (or W for that matter) might implement the last resort technique when there are children involved. On the surface it would seem simple, keep contact to a minimum and only child related. In reality life is not so simple, particularly with children involved, and I wonder how feelings of personal guilt, abandonment of children, guilt implied by S, and other factors come into play when you are at this stage.

I have two young children (7 and 3) and I am pretty close to dark. There are several days when we don't interact. The exchange of kids happens on Fridays at daycare where we leave a bag or suitcase, so we don't see each other. In fact, I've seen WW only once in 2015. Our communications are usually by text and to the bare minimum. The kids have no contact with the other parent when they're with one. When a kid is sick (cold, flu), we often don't even inform the other parent, we just deal with it. In fact, if the other parent has nothing to do, we don't contact.

For me, I want to get out of the way while she's with OM. It's mostly for myself because it helps me detach. I don't see how guilt and abandonment can play a factor. The kids are taken care of, we split 50-50 so there's no abandonment, I'm not happy that I don't see them half the time but more interaction with WW won't fix that.

I hope this helps.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 545
M
MCS Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 545
Alpha,

Mozza and I have been step by step going through this process, but I see we treat what's going on with the kids differently. I struggled up front holding onto the logistics with the kids as control without even realizing it. I couldn't distinguish between what is best for the kids without automatically assuming it is getting back together.

W and I go to MC (mediation) every week at her request because for some reason she doesn't want to talk with me directly. I have done my share of bring up our M in the context of the kids, but we went 2 months w/o any contact at all about the kids. My sitch is quite different since I really had no indications that W was unhappy, mainly because her A was going on for so long. She's admitted she tried to talk to me once, one year prior to BD. Looking back, I really thought she was having a bad day and it had nothing to do with me. I never heard about our M being bad, her being unhappy with me, etc.

I'm one that has fed off her emotional status and have not reacted calmly to some of her spew because it is so far fetched. However, my 'consistent' actions have been about providing structure with the kids during the sitch. I see that is what has made the difference for myself and I can better understand convos about kids and convos about us. The toughest part is when kids ask questions about why mom left, why can't we work it out, etc. It's tough trying to teach kids about resolving conflict when to them their parents can't.

Also, we can't forget our WW are struggling with their own morality in the sitch and we as LBS become intimidating of the reminder to them that where they are may not be as dire as they had thought ( they probably assumed there was no turning back)

If you look at the LBS's here, you see the constant of them getting stronger while the WW seems to degrade emotionally as time goes by. That's because this site has really pushed us all to look at ourselves and understand what we can change and not be the 'protector' for our W's.

I sees that during talks, WW has created the fantasy of a WW centric view of life and as discussions about kids come into play, it challenges those thoughts. Without the addiction they probably could reconcile their own views, but the constant struggle of that keeps them in their 'fog'

Anyone that has went to IC for really any reason has uncovered that happiness starts inside of one's own skin. Without that, WW seem to peg happiness on how others make them feel. OM makes them feel good, the others make them feel bad. Without an introspective look at themselves, they create this 'fog' to constantly avoid or become angry of sitches that make them 'feel' bad.

So with kids, it's a careful balance; and the protector theme hits us LBS's hard on what we need to do to shelter our kids. That's the toughest part and just tonight, I was sitting by myself looking at how so many things in my life are still going alright, but continue to feel guilty that I can't fix that for my kids. That's why everyone stresses to put them first. To give us peace of mind that we are doing as much as we possibly can that's within our control to make this as eay for them as possible. I can say that my relationship with my kids has never been stronger and I see that WW is now starting to feel somewhat uncomfortable that where there was a good balance while we were together, the kids are naturally erring on the side of structure. My WW said early on that an emotionally stable Mom was better than an unhappy one and now we're in the place that I think she realizes that neither of them are true right now for her. At first she blamed me for that, but it seems as if the consistent action on my part with them has lessened that resentment, but may be starting to affect her reassess not her decision, but she's trying to work out her state of mind as the Mom. i see this by her constantly trying to say that she's not an 'unfit parent.' I used to argue with her on that by saying she walked out on them, but I see that time is taking its toll on her without me saying anything. I don't even say anything when those things come out of the blue, but can see that maybe she's starting to see that conflict in her views.

Last edited by MCS; 03/26/15 03:49 AM.

M:36 W:37
T: 15 M:11
S6 D5
BD: 8/10/14
IDLY: 8/12/14
S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids)
D Mentioned: 10/15/14
Confronted about OM: 10/15/14
EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13
She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 399
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 399
Thanks for all the LRT and child related responses.

I guess my sitch is different in that although W had A, because I handled the fall out of BD so badly (crying/pleading/threats etc) I was in no emotional state to mind the kids. W has moved out with kids and is dictating when I see them (at the mo 2-3 times a week, short periods of time, in her company, no overnight stays with me). If things were 50/50 custody wise I would find it easier to detach as per LRT.

Since she holds all the cards (is the mother, better income, hasn't cried/made threats etc) I see little joy coming from the legal route. I'm hoping building trust can enable me to have more time with the kids to the point where we have some sort of joint childcaring arrangement. This is where fear of abandonment comes in. I long to be there for them but right now I'm not (can't be/not allowed).

3rd party drop offs sound a good idea for future reference, a way to step back and ensure no pursuit takes place. Starksy recommended cozi calander too, which looks a good idea.

We are having minimal text/phone contact right now. I long for more and feel guilt/shame/loss for our R status and our children's upbringing.


BD - 30TH JAN 2015
S - 30TH JAN 2015
PA CONFIRMED - 16TH FEB 2015 (SINCE AT LEAST OCT 2014)
CONTINUAL TALK OF D
ME: 31
W: 28
T: 10yrs
M: 4.5yrs
D:5, S:6
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,708
Z
Member
Offline
Member
Z
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,708
Mozza- that's NOT what she's supposed to do. When she meets OM in August and starts feeling her M is dead, she's supposed to understand those are FEELINGS caused by a DRUG like reaction to a stimulant. Then she's supposed to cut him out of her life, wait for 6-12 months past when she feels involved with him, and work on her M with you. She is to tell you of what nearly happened and explain that she isn't just recommitting to the M because she'll never leave, but that she doesn't want to leave under the influence, and that things need to get better or she WILL leave.

Frankly I did something similar in 2011. I was 31 and went through a MLC. I was a new manager and felt old as I worked with a bunch of 24-26 year olds that went out for happy hour every night and did exciting things on the weekend. My W at the time was a SAHM that wore sweatpants, gained weight, and neglected me and put 100% of herself into the kids and her role as a mom. So here I was surrounded by a bunch of young women that seemed to admire me, and I had to come home to someone that ignored me or treated me with irritation. IT STUNK. That is not right.

I developed feelings for one of these women. Nothing physical happened, and there was no EA in the sense that OW DIDN'T KNOW. I never told her, I never acted on anything, no conversations about "us". I just FELT different around her, and she was on my mind TOO MUCH. So guess what I did? I met with my boss AND the OW, told her I was having this trouble, that my M came first, and if that meant I had to RESIGN MY JOB to get away from the situation I would be willing to. I told my W that day what I had done and why.

As it turns out once I came clean the feelings went away almost IMMEDIATELY. And I was actually able to work in the same department with OW because of this and didn't have to quit.

The sad part is that my W considered this a BAD thing on my side, that I "shouldn't have ever felt this way". And instead of looking in the mirror and making any changes on HER end, she blamed me and grew colder which only contributed to our bad M. Funny, I actually am PROUD of how I handled the situation. Had she handled the situation with her OM the same way we'd still be M and could be working on things.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Originally Posted By: Mozza


Originally Posted By: Starsky309
(they should have talked to you about how unhappy they were, and -- if that failed repeatedly -- they should have sought a separation or even a divorce before sleeping around)

Isn't this what my WW did though? She met OM in mid-August. They quickly grew close and developed what I guess is an EA (no evidence). She realized her M was dead to her for a long time (had been complaining) and left me in early September. Then she developed a R with him and announced it to me in November. Didn't she do the right thing?


No, she didn't. She should have tried maybe one more time to get your attention, and then -- if necessary -- she should have told you she wanted a divorce, BEFORE hooking up with another man.

The whole "emotional back-dating" thing is VERY common with wayward women, especially. "Well I considered us pretty much apart at that point, sooo . . . . "


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,098
Z
Member
Offline
Member
Z
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,098
Starsky, that is just it...they re-write history to suit thier own conscience...to justify thier actions for what they would have otherwise believed was not right.


M - 40's
W - 30's
Two Sons
Living together
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
Zeus and others,

Originally Posted By: Zues126
Mozza- that's NOT what she's supposed to do. When she meets OM in August and starts feeling her M is dead, she's supposed to understand those are FEELINGS caused by a DRUG like reaction to a stimulant. Then she's supposed to cut him out of her life, wait for 6-12 months past when she feels involved with him, and work on her M with you.


This makes sense. However, it is a rather simplistic approach to the real problem. I had my own OW because I was in a vulnerable and messy place at that stage of my life. I do UNDERSTAND the pull of OW/OM. As Sandi related earlier, it was a shot in the arm when someone pays attention to you and you are feeling somewhat vulnerable. Once it crosses the physical plane, it is VERY VERY difficult to cut off the emotional high from engaging in sexual relations with the other person. All reason flies out of the window. It is all about the 'feel good' emotion and we want more of THAT.

This is why I allude this to being akin to a heroin addict...we will do anything to get that "fix" or high. At that point, we will not listen to "reason" and if you try to bash the OM/OW....WATCH OUT because it will just draw them closer as in a "us versus them" mindset.

If one is healthy, strong and generally happy in their M, they are able to bat away any potential advances by the other person. I have done this in real life because I am confident and secure.

I am not saying that the WAS is blame less or gets a free pass on engaging in an A. All I am saying is that once one touches the "forbidden fruit", then all bets are off....unfortunately. The plus side of the equation is that affairs do burn out because reality creeps in and the true colors of the OP shows up thus providing a stark contrast to the happy, upbeat LBS.

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
I sorta agree and I sorta disagree, Wonka -- I think it all depends on "how far down the wayward path" they are. I do believe there comes a point where they are so addicted (even chemically) to the PEA rush and to the attention of the affair that it's difficult for them to extract themselves. However I also believe that someone with a strong moral character still knows "right from wrong" even at this stage, and I also believe that BEFORE it gets to this stage is when I'm saying they should sit down and try one more time to get thru to their spouse.

"Honey, I know we've discussed this before, but i AM NOT HAPPY in this marriage, and I find myself losing respect and attraction and love for you and even now finding myself attracted to others. Before I go down a path that I know is wrong, and KNOW won't solve anything, I'm hoping we can talk about this and maybe get some marriage counseling or go on a Retrouvaille weekend or something before it's too late."

Some version of that.

I do understand the pull . . . I just think that morally and ethically, we are still obligated to resist it. And if we can't, we should get a D or at least a S before deciding to have an affair.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Alpha, I wanted to respond to some of the questions you had. As I said, I don't have all the answers, but we can always talk about the issues.

The situation you have about not being allowed to have your kids overnight, and you have to visit them under her supervision, is that a court order? B/c if that is just your W calling the shots, I think you need to have legal representation. She seems to think it's fine for you to pick the kids up and take to school.

Quote:
Quote:
Are there any points when the script becomes reality in your experience here, and how would one know when that moment has occurred?

If you could be more specific, or give an example from your stitch, I may be able to give a better answer. As I said in the last thread, script does not necessarily mean lit's all ies, but it is usually said out of high emotion and usually not accurate. There is also the BS that WW's spew, so that is why you have to keep your head clear and your feet planted firmly, or it will shake your foundation.

In the beginning of the crises when she drops the bomb, etc., I would say not to believe what you hear her say and only half of what she does. It is all emotional based and she is not reacting rationally, even if some pretend they are. If she pulls you in to her emotional, irrational crises, you will not have the strength to do what you need to do to get a handle on it.

Quote:
Quote:
Do you know at what point this 'script' will be discarded and 'normal thought' might be resumed. I'm sure there is not an average time, so does it need to be a crisis moment or some other point?


The shortest answer I can give is the script will continue as long as it works for her.

The little longer answer is when she ends the wayward behavior and deals with her wayward heart in a healthy manner.

You see, I think it varies with people. IJMHO, as long as she is feeding this waywardness, I think it continues. If the couple physically separates, and depending on the lack of contact, and she no longer sees him being an obstacle to anything she wants, it "might" slow down, simply b/c he is causing no waves in her life. However, she still holds all that resentment and disrespect, so she's going to continue to blame him for everything. And, the minute he rocks her boat, here comes the script again. Even if he thinks he may be making baby steps toward R, she starts with the "I just don't know that I can trust you". What?!?

In some cases, it takes a D and her moving on to another relationship, or attending the school of very hard knocks, to slowly inch her way out of her rebellion. Unfortunately, I have seen some who never changed. They went from man to man, or drama to drama and their life continued getting more messed up, and yet, would not end their bad behavior. The rebellion just grew until they aged into an old, pathetic, bitter, lonely person nobody wanted to be around.

I believe there are some cases where a personal crises or "loss" can yank them back to their senses, but it sure is not a guarantee. And it is not a one-fix-all experience, or it wasn't for me. However, it did help clear my head enough to stop the direction I was going, to turn around and work my way back.

The best way is the DB way, and for the H to completely let her go. Let her deal with life without him, and without his help. Let her face her consequences without his rescue. Let her see him making a life without her, and being happy in that life. Let her suffer whatever loss hits. But you "let her" out of the love you have, and not out of vindictiveness.

If there is ever a chance for a R, in time, she will stop the spew, the BS, the script. She will make the hard effort to get back to being the person she use to be. But it does take time and it is hard work for her. I cannot stress this enough to you LBH'S. Many LBH'S cannot hold out that long, or she goes on to another M.

Quote:
Quote:
Your description of how a EA with co-worker becomes a PA described my WW's situation to a 'T'. If everything is all part of a process, as has been mentioned in the post between yours, what is the next step in the process once it has been established that the WW is following a script?


That is really hard to say. Maybe some others can give us a better answer. So much of what the WW says and does is all based on her emotions and what is happening in that moment. She may go in circles, repeating these same scenes. (If the H allows it.). That is only one reason why he can't accomplish any headway by having a R talk with her!

The sooner she learns he has let her go, (which seems to take a lot of guys way too long), the "dance" begins. Have you read the link on the distant/pursuit? The H pulls back......it draws her in closer. The H steps forward......she steps back. He has to decide who is leading! If he's smart, he can lead her (by pulling back) all the way off the dance floor. wink

It is human nature to want what we think we can't have. It sure plays havoc on the LBH'S when he discovers he's loosing his W. It also works on her, if she thinks he is dumping her! That can change the dynamics real quick. If men would just do it!

So, it's hard to say what the next step will be. A lot depends upon the actions of the LBH. But if he does all the wrong things to pursue her in her waywardness, it's a safe bet she will move further away from him. She will put emotional and physical distance between them. If he will just leave her alone and let her experience the process, she may get through it faster. Otherwise, her life usually has to get worse before it gets better. But to write down the steps of what comes next? If I understand what you are asking, I don't have them........or else my brain is dead this morning. Perhaps another LBS will speak up.

If you are asking what steps regarding her coming back to her normal self again, I think I covered part of it. Here are some more detailed steps in her recover. Not necessarily in any particular order. Wait......better yet, I will just list them in another post, since this one may be so long, it slows down the Internet. smile


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
Starsky et al,

Until you've walked in my or Sandi's shoes as the OP, you and others will NEVER fully comprehend nor understand the allure of OW/OM. Trust me, I knew it was "wrong" alright....so does your WAS.

I can see that you and others who are extremely stringent about the line that WAS should wait until D to get involved are coming from a place of such deep, utter betrayal that you take this hard line because it is incredibly painful to experience the receiving end of it. I am not saying that it is wrong to do so....you are in a protective mode. I get that.

My point is that the emotional pull is very, very STRONG like a riptide. Believe me when I say that I have reviewed my situation with the OW, how it started, and how it progressed just made me more aware of how As start after reading the DB books and the Not Just Friends book by Shirley Glass. I forgive myself for my mistake. It was a growth experience for me.

Like Sandi, I have this incredible awareness on relationships in general and how it is vitally important to protect the sanctity of a marriage having been on both sides of the same coin.

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Starsky et al,

Until you've walked in my or Sandi's shoes as the OP, you and others will NEVER fully comprehend nor understand the allure of OW/OM. Trust me, I knew it was "wrong" alright....so does your WAS.

I can see that you and others who are extremely stringent about the line that WAS should wait until D to get involved are coming from a place of such deep, utter betrayal that you take this hard line because it is incredibly painful to experience the receiving end of it. I am not saying that it is wrong to do so....you are in a protective mode. I get that.



I think you misunderstand where my beliefs are coming from. It is my belief before, during, recently after and now LONG after what my wife and I went thru that it's morally wrong for a married spouse to have an affair due to their unhappiness in the marriage, and the fact that "I've tried to talk to him about it, but he just didn't listen."

Do I UNDERSTAND it? Hell yeah -- it's basic human nature. Love, lust, meeting unmet physical and emotional needs . . . I get ALL of it, and have even been through it -- twice. I just think you should end your marriage before you give in to it.

Guess I'm a pretty simplistic guy. smirk


Starsky

Last edited by Starsky309; 03/26/15 03:55 PM.

M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,708
Z
Member
Offline
Member
Z
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,708
The second half of my post is stating that I DID feel that pull from OW during 2011. That is why I exposed those feelings to OW, my boss, and my W on the same day and offered my resignation. I knew that my M was more important and that I had to eliminate the threat from my life.

I DID have the conversation with my W about me being dissatisfied. It fell on deaf ears. From 2011 to 2014 my M was HORRIBLE and the ONLY reason I didn't walk away is because I DON'T believe in D and would rather die in a bad M having tried for 50 years to make it work than tearing apart a family and trying to find a perfect partner.

Those happen to be MY BELIEFS on what should be done upon the start of EA type feelings. I was simply addressing Mozza's statement about how WAW knew upon having these strong feelings for OM that the M was dead, and I am simply saying that is not a healthy way to end a M. Whether or not others agree, or whether or not they can avoid those temptations or act on their values...that is up to them.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Do I UNDERSTAND it? Hell yeah -- it's basic human nature. Love, lust, meeting unmet physical and emotional needs . . . I get ALL of it, and have even been through it -- twice. I just think you should end your marriage before you give in to it.


Only if it were that simple.....

It does not work for people who are already in a vulnerable position. If one was strong, courageous and clear-eyed, yeah...otherwise there would be no affair, right?

The problem is that many people have already gone past the "give in to it" stage which makes it excruciatingly difficult to extract from the OM/OW. Just like a drug addict refusing to give up heroin or meth. Intellectually, they know that drugs are bad for them, but keep doing it because of the "high."

It's no use to try to make sense out of irrational behavior because rational does not apply to druggies or people in affairs.

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
It IS simple . . . it's just not EASY.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, Wonk. Like Zeus, them's my beliefs and I was really just trying to respond to Sandi's request for LBH's feelings on this subject.

Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
You are correct that it is not easy at all. This has been a good discussion and we come from different perspectives based on our own experiences. That's okay. smile

Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,708
Z
Member
Offline
Member
Z
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,708
FYI- I'm not saying that's easy, or that I can't believe anyone would fail to do it. I get affairs, I get addictions. Trust me. I made choices when I was younger that were destructive and based on addictive behavior. I am simply stating that it isn't right for my values. I think everyone agrees with this. I'm not even sure what the argument is on this.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Originally Posted By: Wonka
You are correct that it is not easy at all. This has been a good discussion and we come from different perspectives based on our own experiences. That's okay. smile


or, as Martha Stewart would say, "That's a GOOD thing."

smile


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Do I UNDERSTAND it? Hell yeah -- it's basic human nature. Love, lust, meeting unmet physical and emotional needs . . . I get ALL of it, and have even been through it -- twice. I just think you should end your marriage before you give in to it.


Only if it were that simple.....

It does not work for people who are already in a vulnerable position. If one was strong, courageous and clear-eyed, yeah...otherwise there would be no affair, right?

The problem is that many people have already gone past the "give in to it" stage which makes it excruciatingly difficult to extract from the OM/OW. Just like a drug addict refusing to give up heroin or meth. Intellectually, they know that drugs are bad for them, but keep doing it because of the "high."

It's no use to try to make sense out of irrational behavior because rational does not apply to druggies or people in affairs.


I am trying to follow along here, and I tend to side with Starsky that you should end your marriage first before dating but maybe you are not talking about the LBS.

I know their has been discussions in the past about using dating as a tactic to lure the WAS back and I must say that MWD disagrees with that and I also agree with MWD too.

If you want to start dating then get divorced and do whatever you want.

Or am I missing something here?


Me-70, D37,S36
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Cadet, we are talking about the wayward spouse, not the LBS.


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Quote:
Mozza- that's NOT what she's supposed to do.


Oh, I knew what I was suppose to do! That was never the issue for me.

It wasn't as though I was on some LSD trip and thought I could really fly like a bird. Although, when looking back, it must have appeared as if I didn't have much more rationale. The feelings I experienced could be compared to the high one gets from taking a drug. IMO, those feel-good highs do not force a person against their volition, but may be argued how the person's moral defenses are lowered after the line is crossed. By that, I mean I chose to go with what made me feel good and was an escape route from my reality. Did I stop and and question if it was wrong.......and/or consider talking to my H one more time about the emotional pain I had? Heck, no! I didn't think about my H, or having another talk, or much of anything else, honestly. I had those moral codes, but I just didn't care enough at the time to enforce it. Frankly, in the beginning, I can't remember feeling guilty about it. It was fun. It was exciting. For the first time in years, I actually felt sexually alive. I endulged in an area that fed my old human ego, and I allowed my own moral and spiritual defenses to lower in order to selfishly partake in wrong behavior.

Quote:
When she meets OM in August and starts feeling her M is dead, she's supposed to understand those are FEELINGS caused by a DRUG like reaction to a stimulant.


I am not so sure I understood all of this, at the time. It is embarrassing that I was fairly ignorant about it, but in all honesty, I can't remember ever thinking about it during that time. I had never read information about PEA, until I came to the board.

Quote:
Then she's supposed to cut him out of her life, wait for 6-12 months past when she feels involved with him, and work on her M with you. She is to tell you of what nearly happened and explain that she isn't just recommitting to the M because she'll never leave, but that she doesn't want to leave under the influence, and that things need to get better or she WILL leave.


I think "under the influence" is an accurate description of how it feels. To intellectually know how to recognize what is happening, or to make the decent, moral decision to leave your M before engaging further, sounds right to me. In fact, I wouldn't even swear that I've never said what that person should or shouldn't have done. I just know that I was, indeed, under the influence. We aren't at our sharpest or make the wisest decisions under the influence........whatever the influence might be. Not making it an excuse, just saying what it was like for me.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 157
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 157
Very interesting dialogue going on here. I actually think most WAS's say, and probably think, that they'll never cheat before they cross the line either. Prior to the affair they quite possibly think it's against their own morals. Yes, they made a choice I can't imagine myself making. I don't feel comfortable judging them on that choice alone though.

I agree that someone should leave the M before they cheat. However, I think if my H had done that, neither of us would have achieved so much personal growth in such a short period of time. I can see that him making a really bad choice was actually a catalyst for some really positive change in my life.


Me: 30
H: 35
M: 5 years
S2
Signs of MLC started Feb 2014
BD - PA July 2014
Piecing/reconciling late July 2014
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Gee whiz, by the time I get a post out, the whole subject has changed. Explains why my post to Alpha seems sort of off topic.

Anyway, Zues, Starsky, and others, I think we agree on what is morally right and wrong. I think what we (Wonka & myself) are saying is that we just don't always follow what we know to be right. If we did, what a different world this would be. It does seem that it should be that simple, doesn't it? In my rational mind, I agree. In my WW mindset, forget it. Sometimes our state of mind can make simple things seem very complicated.

I think Starsky said the word I was seeking earlier.......lust. A powerful pull. Add emotions and personal circumstances into the mix and you've got problems. Doesn't change right into wrong, but it often changes our actions.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Originally Posted By: Heart14


I agree that someone should leave the M before they cheat. However, I think if my H had done that, neither of us would have achieved so much personal growth in such a short period of time. I can see that him making a really bad choice was actually a catalyst for some really positive change in my life.


You know I've never thought of that Heart, and I think you're right! Certainly I think it's accurate in my marriage. Nothing snapped me into action quite like another man preying on my wife!!!


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Quote:
Very interesting dialogue going on here. I actually think most WAS's say, and probably think, that they'll never cheat before they cross the line either.


Thanks Heart, Yes, you are preaching to the choir, sister. I'm pretty sure I did judge those who cheated. frown. Not that I thought I was above doing such actions........(or maybe I did).........I just never believed I would. I never would have believed I could do some of the things I did.

I think of what Dr. Harley wrote about affair proofing your M. Sadly, I never thought it was necessary.......not for my M! We had 110% trust in each other. I didn't think you could find a couple any more straight-laced than we were.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 788
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 788
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Gee whiz, by the time I get a post out, the whole subject has changed. Explains why my post to Alpha seems sort of off topic.

Anyway, Zues, Starsky, and others, I think we agree on what is morally right and wrong. I think what we (Wonka & myself) are saying is that we just don't always follow what we know to be right. If we did, what a different world this would be. It does seem that it should be that simple, doesn't it? In my rational mind, I agree. In my WW mindset, forget it. Sometimes our state of mind can make simple things seem very complicated.

I think Starsky said the word I was seeking earlier.......lust. A powerful pull. Add emotions and personal circumstances into the mix and you've got problems. Doesn't change right into wrong, but it often changes our actions.


Very well put. I rail against OM (and cheaters in general), but one thing that has tempered my anger at my W has been the knowledge that it could have been me.

Both of us were feeling the loneliness and the disconnect....she just had an opportunity for an A first. The roles could have been reversed...very easily.


Ex Rzrback
Me 43 Her 44
D11, D15
T21, M19
BD 9/9/2014
Piecing

Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,746
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,746
This is so helpful to read in my situation.. My WAS was always dead set against affairs. Helpful and encouraging to read from a WAS that eventually the allure of the OP wears off and you look at your happy contented LBS and suddenly want them back.

Operation make me the kinda girl a man would be a FOOL to leave


Me 26 H 25
M 4
T 5
Baby born 4/14
BD: 1/15
EA: 2/15
PA: 4/15
reconciling: 4/15
ILYBINILWY- 11/15
ILY-1/16
ILYBNILWY 4/16
ILY 6/16
ILYBINILWY 6/16
Baby due 3/17
BD 8/16
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 110
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 110
Originally Posted By: Starsky309


You know I've never thought of that Heart, and I think you're right! Certainly I think it's accurate in my marriage. Nothing snapped me into action quite like another man preying on my wife!!!

Starsky



My W filed before I found about the A. Her filing almost meant nothing to me due to me being detached and unhappy in the M. I was in a bad place and didn't realize how bad of a place I was in mentally.

Finding out about her A was another story. It was truly the atom bomb that shocked me to my core.It made me look at myself and how the result of my action of inaction effected others in my family.

I'll admit that the diver for my changes was my M after I found about the A. However, my M is over and is not the reason I am continuing to work on myself. My future and my kids are.

It's interesting to me that the A is what snaps people to attention. How many times did I hear "we need to talk" w/o any lasting effect? I truly regret my past inactions now.


M:42 W:43
T:14 M:10
S:9 D:5
W filed 12/22/14
EA 12/31/14
PA 4/10/15
D final 5/13/15
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,708
Z
Member
Offline
Member
Z
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,708
Not a big deal but it's not universal.

For me BD was the shock. When she BD'd me and asked me to leave the house I was wide awake. I didn't know she was in an A (it became a slight EA prior to BD, and a PA after I moved out...if what she told me is true, but who knows) until 3 months later. I suspected just based on what I'd seen but I wasn't sure.

Honestly that has never impacted me. I don't take it as personal, I see it just as another destructive decision like her drinking. But whether she lies in a lovers nest projecting fantasies onto OM because she's feeling powerful brain reactions, to me that's not a big deal.

I always said that had she truly been on a healing route of self reflection and discovery, then 6 months down the road after the D met a guy at church that was widowed, and started having deep talks and developing the start of a healthy R, etc...that would've been much harder. Watching an emotionally empty woman that was in a lot of pain give herself physically to other men to feel important and attractive, well I just feel bad for her.

Make no mistake, it would be hard to get over if she wanted to R, but more because I wouldn't trust her character to behave in the future, not just because it hurt my feelings.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 629
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 629
I'm sure this doesn't matter, but the thing that gets to me about all these WAS is the commitment issue!! When I stood in front of God, justice of the peace and friends and family, I said " till death do us part". NOT "till I am unhappy in my marriage" or " till you don't make me happy anymore" or " till I lose my attraction to you". And so did my wife. I grew up in the ranch and cowboy life where truth and honor meant something. Where just cause things are getting tough, you don't give up. You tough it out, work through it and push on. I have had my moments in our marriage where I felt distant from my W. I have had moments where I was not sure if I was happy. But I DID NOT go get involved with someone else. Hell I feel guilty if I even look at someone else. That is just my little rant.


Me:44
EXW 44
Wonderful Children
M11, T14
BD 6/14
OM Confirmed
Divorce Final 2/25/16
"It works if you work it!"

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 145
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 145
Originally Posted By: Zues126
Watching an emotionally empty woman that was in a lot of pain give herself physically to other men to feel important and attractive, well I just feel bad for her.

Make no mistake, it would be hard to get over if she wanted to R, but more because I wouldn't trust her character to behave in the future, not just because it hurt my feelings.


This is the place that I am getting to now. Even if my W wanted to R, I am not sure if I could trust her anymore. And I wouldn't want to put myself (or my kids) through this again.


life is too short....
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 629
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 629
Originally Posted By: Leon01
Originally Posted By: Zues126
Watching an emotionally empty woman that was in a lot of pain give herself physically to other men to feel important and attractive, well I just feel bad for her.

Make no mistake, it would be hard to get over if she wanted to R, but more because I wouldn't trust her character to behave in the future, not just because it hurt my feelings.


This is the place that I am getting to now. Even if my W wanted to R, I am not sure if I could trust her anymore. And I wouldn't want to put myself (or my kids) through this again.



I am also dealing with this!


Me:44
EXW 44
Wonderful Children
M11, T14
BD 6/14
OM Confirmed
Divorce Final 2/25/16
"It works if you work it!"

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 8,855
V
Member
Offline
Member
V
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 8,855
I think if it works, I should immediately go and be wayward.


Can I have a guideline on how to actually be wayward please? I will go get my pen, put away my diet coke, and pay attention.

Oh well, looks like too much pain involved, I can park that idea.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Yes, very much pain, Vanilla, for both spouses.

About the commitment issue, wedding vows, etc., I am going to say something that some of you may not be able to wrap your head around it. It sounds crazy even to my ears. I do not remember thinking about my marriage vows when I first compromised my behavior with my beliefs. That sounds as bad as the A, doesn't it? My mind just was not flowing in the direction of my M vows. Tragic, but true.

This may not speak for all people who have had an A. And it JMHO that unless it has become a pattern (or as we say, serial cheater), I don't think the everyday normal person in a M sets out to have an A. Especially when there is no history of the person acting in such a manner. What starts out as "harmless" flirtation (if there is such a thing), or a friendship crossing the line into an EA, I think for the most part people slide into A's. I'm not saying they can't stop themselves. But that they have already slid to the point they crave more. And that is what drives them. Wonka may have touched on this in one of her posts.
Going back to the drug addict, you can tell her to look at the destruction around her, and she doesn't listen b/c the craving is her driving force.

I won't tell any LBS not to take it personally. Of course, the faithful S takes it personally. They have been betrayed! However, let me just say that no matter how bad the M, I doubt your S intentially set about to inflict you with pain by planing an A. Does it mean he/she did not take seriously the wedding vows? May be another point of discussion. For me, yes I took my vows seriously, and honored them for those years. And I have honored them since we R. But I cannot truthfully tell you I had flashes of me saying my vows when I was being drawn into my wayward behavior. ( I'll withdraw the word "drawn" b/c it sounds like no choice.) So when I entered into my wayward actions, I was responding to my needs and vulnerability, in an out of character and immoral manner. At that moment in time, all I was considering was my selfish gratification.

The subject of the vows is often mentioned by the betrayed S, and rightly so. I doubt I could ever explain how it is even possible for a person to be able to compromise those vows and be so consumed in their own desires that they do not stop to seriously consider what they vowed before God and to the their spouse. Doesn't even make sense to the logical mind, does it? Key word being logical.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 110
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 110
Originally Posted By: Joe406
I'm sure this doesn't matter, but the thing that gets to me about all these WAS is the commitment issue!! When I stood in front of God, justice of the peace and friends and family, I said " till death do us part". NOT "till I am unhappy in my marriage" or " till you don't make me happy anymore" or " till I lose my attraction to you". And so did my wife. I grew up in the ranch and cowboy life where truth and honor meant something. Where just cause things are getting tough, you don't give up. You tough it out, work through it and push on. I have had my moments in our marriage where I felt distant from my W. I have had moments where I was not sure if I was happy. But I DID NOT go get involved with someone else. Hell I feel guilty if I even look at someone else. That is just my little rant.



I remember my W telling me once that she felt strip clubs broke M vows. That she would be livid if I had gone to one on my bachelor party. Even threatened D. I didn't go to one on my bachelor party. Just a fun night out with my buddies.

After I found out about the A, she said vows are "just words". Not surprising.

It makes me sad to think that some/all of what Sandi posts is going on inside her head and I did nothing but reinforce her spiral into waywardness.


M:42 W:43
T:14 M:10
S:9 D:5
W filed 12/22/14
EA 12/31/14
PA 4/10/15
D final 5/13/15
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 1
I lean towards the perspective of Wonka and Sandi2. Infatuation/lust/limerence is such a powerful force - a riptide as Wonka wrote. It can come at a time when the spouse is very vulnerable. I remember when I met my W and felt the attraction was mutual. I lost control, more or less. All my mental energy was directed towards her. I could feel that drug. I would wake up at 5 am to love her. Combine this feeling with unhappiness in an M and you get a volatile mix. It's too much to assume that the WW should know that it's just a drug. I didn't know much of this until BD and all the reading I've done since them. Sandi2 also says she didn't know.

But the crux of the discussion is timing. We all agree that M is not a prison (well, except Zues126 and Joe406 maybe wink ) and that there are moments when it's acceptable to leave a bad M. What if you leave the M before the OP attraction turns into a PA because you don't want to cheat? Sounds reasonable to me.

My W had given me several clear signals that I missed. See this message that she wrote me in August, five days before meeting OM for the first time. How much more does she need to say so that it counts as the "last" message? She was ripe. I just noticed one thing in the email: "I want to dull the pain". Coincidentally, just last night, I was told that suicide hotlines are instructed to take this sentence very seriously.

I've been very critical of my WW in the last six months for leaving me, but every now and then I have these flashes that maybe I've done more for this S than I care to admit.
______________________

Zues126 and Closer2 | For me, BD was the eye opener. In fact, the moment my WW said the word "separation", the fog cleared out. The A was suspected but only discovered later and added to the pain, but did not make me more aware of my flaws.

Joe406, Leon01, Zues126 | I used to think about this a lot: If she wanted back, would I trust my WW anyway? Recently, there's been a discussion about the morals of a serial cheater on my thread #10. It made me realize that this is all a moot point, wasted energy. We will trust our WW or not based on how they return. If they haven't changed, then no. But if they had an epiphany and tell us and do all the right things (like sandi2), then yes. Until then, we don't know and shouldn't even think about it because thousands of scenarios are possible. Let's consider the M dead and focus on ourselves.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 8,855
V
Member
Offline
Member
V
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 8,855
Originally Posted By: Cherry
This is so helpful to read in my situation.. My WAS was always dead set against affairs. Helpful and encouraging to read from a WAS that eventually the allure of the OP wears off and you look at your happy contented LBS and suddenly want them back.

Operation make me the kinda girl a man would be a FOOL to leave


Absolutely!

lust v love ted talk

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,708
Z
Member
Offline
Member
Z
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,708
The reason vows and commitment are so important to me is that they provide standards when our own standards might be suspect.

Kind of like laws, religious beliefs...they keep us in check and tell us the right way to behave when we feel like being destructive or selfish. We do what we believe is right as much of the time as we can.

Wedding vows are the same. "for worse, in sickness". All in the vows as FULL DISCLOSURE that things will be difficult. But that we are committing to remain true through that.

If the vows are just words then it becomes a matter of when we feel like leaving. To me that's not a marriage. That's a ride in the sunshine until it inevitably starts to rain.

I maintain that anyone that adds a "but" to the statement "I don't believe in divorce..." truly DOES believe in divorce. I do not.

The sad part and why this touched a nerve with me is that everyone is willing to make those vows, and there isn't a good way to tell who means them and who doesn't. It's unfair to those that mean them. It's like becoming friends with someone and saying "I promise I won't ever physically harm you if I'm angry" and them agreeing. But then they get angry and punch you in the face, and when you say "we agreed not to do that" they say "well, I didn't know I'd get THIS angry, if I'm this angry then I can hit you".

Mozza, I'm not judging you or even saying I'm right to feel the way I do, but we definitely disagree on this one. I DON'T believe it's ok to leave a M unless it's truly an act of self preservation, and the problem with even THAT clause is that WAS's are so delusional that they'll twist a 5 year old argument into "an emotionally abusive relationship that they must escape". And it's easy to get people to validate that.

I will do my best to thoroughly scrub any future partner I have to try to differentiate those that TRULY mean their vows vs. those that believe in fair weather marriages. No guarantees in my life but at least I understand that not everyone means these words equally so will have these conversations with them and look at the way they talk about past relationships to see if they mean it. That is why I'm so inspired by these forums, it's nice to see women exist that feel this way.

Last edited by Zues126; 03/26/15 09:25 PM.

Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Originally Posted By: Zues126


If the vows are just words then it becomes a matter of when we feel like leaving. To me that's not a marriage. That's a ride in the sunshine until it inevitably starts to rain.

. . .

The sad part and why this touched a nerve with me is that everyone is willing to make those vows, and there isn't a good way to tell who means them and who doesn't. It's unfair to those that mean them. It's like becoming friends with someone and saying "I promise I won't ever physically harm you if I'm angry" and them agreeing. But then they get angry and punch you in the face, and when you say "we agreed not to do that" they say "well, I didn't know I'd get THIS angry, if I'm this angry then I can hit you".


Man, you sure have a way with words, Zues. That was really well-put and I totally get what you mean.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 955
R
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 955
You know - I've been checking in on this thread in and all day and I keep having this feeling I am watching an old Miller Lite commercial. "Tastes Great!" vs. "Less Filling!"

Is it possible that given the wide variations in human beings and circumstances that these two views are not mutually exclusive? It seems possible that even in the throes of violent limerance that some potential WASs resist, but I also truly believe that given the right combination of circumstances and timing anyone could probably be unfaithful. Don't get me wrong - I like to think I never would (and I never have) - but that's probably naieve.

Last edited by raliced; 03/26/15 09:55 PM.

2 Ds: 7 and 4
BD and Sep: 7/14
Divorce Final 2/16
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 1
Thanks Zeus126, I appreciate your perspective a lot. It's not so far from mine as I also wish that my W had been as sincere as me when pronouncing her vows. I have this mental image of her eyes full of tears looking into mine as she said them, not five years ago. I'm immensely hurt as I feel she's taken advantage of me.

The slight difference is that, in my view, the M can be ended as long as the spouses follow a "protocol". It would never be a surprise to either spouses. There would be some serious talks, improvement plans, MC, etc until one consistently fails to deliver his share. W and I had agreed on this and even criticized our friends who S or D overnight. As sandi2 said, past beliefs of the WW are no guide for her current behavior.

I'm upset that my W mentioned S when it was a done deal. I would have taken an ultimatum, a break, a deadline — anything telling me that she had reached her breaking point. She wrote me this email about feeling miserable, but it was in the heat of an argument and she had her share of blame in it, so I took her messages as part of this discussion. I realize now that I was blind, that it was more important than that. What would have opened my eyes, and did, was the S word. She never told me until her decision was made, in a haste.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Originally Posted By: raliced
You know - I've been checking in on this thread in and all day and I keep having this feeling I am watching an old Miller Lite commercial. "Tastes Great!" vs. "Less Filling!"


Well, yeah, and besides that, I'm pretty sure that what Sandi asked was more like "what do you like better, beer or wine?":

Originally Posted By: sandi2
When I first arrived on the board, I was a WW who had the resentment, disrespect, rebellion......and defensiveness. I went head to head with some who hit me with the truth that I was completely responsible for my A. Naturally, I wanted to blame my H. "If he had responded to my emotional needs, I would not have been vulnerable to someone else". I think I actually said something very similar to that statement.

It may be in just a few of the threads I read, IDK, but is there some blame shifting taking place in the thinking of newcomer LBH'S? Recently, it seems we are seeing the LBH accepting all the blame for the actions of his WW. It concerns me for several reasons, but I will try to wait to post it later, and give you a chance to express your thoughts.

Many of us have tried to explain that the H may have had a part in the breakdown of the MR, b/c they usually do, and some have a bigger part than others. Some men have no clue as to what they could have done to cause such an affect on her unhappiness to lead to an A. Part of the early information we give the newcomer is to help them look at themselves, dig deep and see the areas that were weak and needs work. I believe the LBS and/or the WAS who comes to the board, needs to go through the deep self-examination.

After the self-examination, we usually see that newcomer hit wit guilt, sadness, anger at themselves, etc. Some of them become very empathic toward their WAS. They want to write letters of apology or do something to show her his sorrow and regret. Even if we tell him it won't fix things, he has such a need to make it right with her. He wants her to know that he finally sees what she put up with all that time.

Since this thread is about WW's, I want to keep the central thought in that direction. It is good for a man to see where he failed, in order to make corrections and improvements. It is good for him to empathize with his W. It is good that he can own his part of the breakdown in the M. I personally believe it may even be necessary in some cases, to prevent self-righteousness. We all make mistakes in M, but some have serious, devasting results.

No matter the role, I hope everyone here agrees that each adult is responsible for the actions they choose from a free will. A woman puts her wayward heart into action, and willingly goes against her H and/or what is "right" and she is completely responsible for those actions.

I also hope newcomer H's will be able to see that he shares part of the breakdown. Maybe he is responsible for how she felt at times in the M, but it's still up to her as to how she deals with her feelings. It was her choice to cling to the hurt or anger and let it grow into a deep resentment. Maybe he didn't even know how she felt. Maybe she never explained in a way that got his attention. Her emotional needs were not completely met.......his needs were not completely met, and they just tried to make the best of things......or so he thought.

Then one day maybe some guy at work winks at her and it makes her feel good, so she responds in some flirty way. It's just all in fun, right? But over time, one little thing leads to another, b/c her ego is being fed and it feels good. She tells herself it means nothing and she has done nothing wrong. The guy gives her compliments, or seems very interested in what she says or the work she does.......whatever, he pays special attention to her, making her feel sexy, or beautiful, or important. The whole experience is lifting her self-confidence as a woman. She begins looking forward to seeing him on the job b/c she feels excited and alive. Let me stop and ask you, is her H responsible thus far?

As her feelings grow into an emotional affair, is the H responsible? As the contacts and time spent with her coworker expands and the EA eventually turns physical, is the H responsible?

Instead of me continuing to just give my comments, I welcome anyone who would like to join in and give thoughts along this subject, b/c do we have a few newcomers who need some guidance here.



I think we've veered off the topic here. What Sandi was pointing out was why betrayed husbands seemed to feel guilty (and even take responsibility for) their wife's decision to have an affair (and further seemed to imply that these feelings of guilt might be affecting the effectiveness of their DBing). And she wanted LBH's views on that.

Somehow that morphed into FWW's view on whether or not they took their vows seriously. It's all great debate, but I don't think it's what Sandi was asking us all to ponder.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,708
Z
Member
Offline
Member
Z
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,708
raliced- I have thought long and hard about that. For example...if I was shipwrecked on a desert island with another attractive female, and despite our best efforts to summon help months turned into years and by all outward signs we'd be stranded for many more years or permanently...YES, I would break my vows. So certainly there is a point at which we are all human.

I would also kill if it was in an extreme context (extreme self defense). That doesn't mean that I don't regard murder as the most committal and inappropriate ways we could behave.

And while it's possible to construct these circumstances to prove a philosophical argument, to me the idea that "since we've just proven we're all capable, we all have the potential to be guilty so we shouldn't act like it's that big of a deal" doesn't hold water.

Despite YEARS of frustration, resentment, lack of physical affection, or anything. I was ready to live the rest of my life in a sexless M without feeling appreciated, but I also got years of IC and was trying to find ways to improve the M in which I felt stuck. So I don't appreciate being told "we could all do it" when there is NO WAY I would break my vows in anything like "real life" conditions.

And if my WW did come out of her fog and demonstrated the growth over a period of time that lead me to believe she felt this way, I would STILL be open to R despite my betrayal and pain BECAUSE I believe in M.

Does that mean I am judging or condemning those who do? That I am not empathetic to the temptations and compelling nature of affairs? That I hold myself as a more righteous person? No. I understand that, and can appreciate that we live in a broken world where many people get drawn in to things that conflict what they used to believe is true. I am simply stating my beliefs and convictions and reasserting what I am looking for in someone else.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,708
Z
Member
Offline
Member
Z
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,708
OK. You're right guys. I did hijack a bit. Sorry for that. I was starting to view this as a "general thread" when it was Sandi's created for a specific and generous point.

Getting back on track I DO appreciate the contributions I made to the destruction of my M, and understand that my STBX went through horrible and prolonged pain before getting to the point she'd consider making the choices she did. I regret my shortcomings and am still working on them. I regret the pain I caused. And I am empathetic to how difficult this has been for her.

Yet I agree that ultimately she made her decisions and is responsible for them, and disagree that she had no alternative and that my shortcomings voided out our commitments to the M.

There, back on track!


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 110
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 110
I contributed to my W wanting to leave this M. She gave me plenty of warnings and tried to talk with me about.

I did not know how to talk to her or what she needed to be happy and feel loved. I think I'm getting better at communicating with her. I finished 5 Love Languages and I'm reading again. It's difficult to practice 5LL while DBing though.

I regret not getting MC before M. It haunts me that the last time she told me she was thinking about divorce I basically ignored her. I thought I could fix our M myself because I fix everything. After awhile, she stopped the complaining and nagging and I thought it was getting better. It wasn't. She had just check out.

DR, DB, 5LL and NMMNG should be required reading before M. I'm sure I'll find many more books that make the list.


M:42 W:43
T:14 M:10
S:9 D:5
W filed 12/22/14
EA 12/31/14
PA 4/10/15
D final 5/13/15
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 250
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 250
Originally Posted By: Mozza
Thanks Zeus126, I appreciate your perspective a lot. It's not so far from mine as I also wish that my W had been as sincere as me when pronouncing her vows. I have this mental image of her eyes full of tears looking into mine as she said them, not five years ago. I'm immensely hurt as I feel she's taken advantage of me.

The slight difference is that, in my view, the M can be ended as long as the spouses follow a "protocol". It would never be a surprise to either spouses. There would be some serious talks, improvement plans, MC, etc until one consistently fails to deliver his share. W and I had agreed on this and even criticized our friends who S or D overnight. As sandi2 said, past beliefs of the WW are no guide for her current behavior.

I'm upset that my W mentioned S when it was a done deal. I would have taken an ultimatum, a break, a deadline — anything telling me that she had reached her breaking point. She wrote me this email about feeling miserable, but it was in the heat of an argument and she had her share of blame in it, so I took her messages as part of this discussion. I realize now that I was blind, that it was more important than that. What would have opened my eyes, and did, was the S word. She never told me until her decision was made, in a haste.


OK, I have been following this thread and really like the robust discussions that it has generated. Your post, in particular, struck a nerve as that is exactly what my wife has done. We had what I thought was a perfect relationship and knew each other well, but apparently not well enough. What I thought were conflicts and disagreements over the last few months apparently were deal breakers and "last straws" for her. Interesting that she has been "miserable for years", and yet never mentioned leaving, separation, or divorce until she started affair and I discovered it. We were cuddling, holding hands, and making future plans until I found out on NYE, and she filed for divorce 1 week later. No counseling, no trial separation, just straight to divorce. I am nothing but a stranger to her now, and she has told all of her friends how horrible I was and how miserable she was. Of course, the reality is that she has OM, and wants to be with him ASAP without feeling guilty. Makes my head spin, and very very painful that I was discarded so easily.


Me M51
WW F46
T 17 yrs
M 16 yrs
9 children D29 D27 D26 S24 S24 S19 S19 niece18 S17
8 grandchildren
ILYBINILWY: 12/15/14
I discover PA 12/31/14
She files D: 1/9/15
She moves out 3/2/15
D papers served 3/18/15
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Whatever you all want to discuss is fine with me, as long as we can help support each other, and learn together. My main goal is trying to help the newcomers. Hopefully, we have at least given them a lot to consider all those nights they can't sleep.

If anyone is struggling with feeling responsible for the WW's affair, or other actions, they can speak up.

Until then, I may take another turn in the topic and copy & paste a list I rapidly threw together when I sent that post to Alpha this morning. He had several questions about what to expect next from his WW, which it difficult to give a general answer. He referred to a post in the former thread where I spoke about the WW going through a process (or journey, if you prefer), and he wanted to know the steps in that process. Again, it's hard to answer that particular question without knowing more details in the stitch. In fact, it's not an unreasonable request. Just don't know that I ever thought or tried to break it down in stages. If anyone would like to share your thoughts and experiences regarding the stages or steps during their WW journey, please feel free.

It's easier, for me, to list some things the WW will need to do in order to reconcile, honestly and completely, with her H. If you see something that needs to be added, feel free.

These are in no special order.

1). Consequences! And taking a hit with hard, maybe a painful loss of some kind.
2). Realizing the connection between her decisions with the consequences/loss.
3). Accepting responsibility for her decisions...and for every loss,
and every hurt she caused those she loves and who loves her.
4). Accepting and dealing with the consequences, without blaming anyone but herself.
5). Making a conscious choice to end her wayward direction and turn around.
6). Seeking guidance and/or spiritual counsel to guide her in how to cleanse her heart of the wrong attitudes, selfcenterness, resentment, rebellion.......whatever she carries that is unhealthy.
7). To be remorseful.  If necessary, even seek spiritual help, pray, whatever......to feel remorse for the destruction her decisions and feelings has caused her H.  She has to feel true remorse in order to emotionally reconcile and heal properly.
8). To completely forgive her H for everything in the past. To release the blame,anger, and hurt she held throughout their M.
9).  To be wiling to do whatever it takes for the MR to heal.
10). To agree and cooperate with the H's choice of transparency plan (accountability), sending a NC letter, having any medical tests, ending any friendships out of his request, (and of course, any contact with OM), place of employment, giving him requested information, attending MC, or anything else the H may request in order to ensure the success of their reconciliation, and the safety of the MR.
11). Accept/agree, without resentment, that she is in no position to give her H any "conditions" to her going back into the MR.  And, to accept without resentment, that the greatest level of work in piecing the M back together, must come from her.
12). To accept that it will take time for her healthy emotions to be restored.  To realize and accept she cannot measure the success of their progress by her feelings.
13). To be informed, and accept, that she must go through withdrawals from her AP, and could experience depression. She needs to understand this is normal, and not a sign that she will have never have feelings for H.
13).  And the hardest one of all.........learn to forgive herself.

 Keep in mind, these things will not all come about at one time. Neither will she be able to know without someone guiding her.  It is really important she has help or coaching from an unbiased source who is pro-marriage and is familiar with piecing after an affair.





It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 545
M
MCS Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 545
Sandi,

Thanks for this list. I see that my struggle is that I see a glimpse of one or two of these things coming from WW and then try to steamroll and try and force her to feel the other things.

To change topics slightly, From a LBS perspective, I've thought a lot of the term 'control.'

I think we all feel when we get here that that word has such a negative connotation, I believed it when my sitch was new. I've been to IC over the last 7 months and she helped me understand that this trait isn't a conscious need to suffocate or bound our spouse, but is more of a case of trying to influence someone else to try and create the outcome that we want or feel is right morally or spiritually.

To use a bad analogy, it's like taking the car keys from someone that you know is drunk. While that always seems like the right thing to do to protect that person as well as others, it is truly trying to take 'control' of a potential negative outcome. I think that us LBS instantly use that word as a major contributor of our fault and ownership of the sitch. However, as my IC has said while that may be what we feel is right for our M, our kids, our lives; LBS's need to accept that if the other person chooses to not embrace and/or consider our point of view, that by continuing to press our 'agenda' (another often misused term) it only is seen as threatening to the WW. This is often met with spew and negative connotation, even though in our hearts it's what we morally feel is the right thing to do.

I beat myself up for a couple months trying to reconcile my need of 'control' as a truly selfish act in my part, but in fact it's not. This is where I personally lean on my faith that while 'I' truly believe that R is the best thing, 'releasing control' to that Higher Power is what I needed to accept the place I'm in in my life right now,

I talked to a Pastor a few months back and he said that as long as we focus on what we feel is needed to be judged for eternal life, we cannot allow the distractions and influences of this world affect our decisions.

For me, I think this leads into the DB concept of detaching, but still caring. Working on what what we 'know' is the right thing based on our beliefs even though WW seems to push away any thoughts of it. In my case, right now it's patience in understanding that the outcome is not in my hands.


M:36 W:37
T: 15 M:11
S6 D5
BD: 8/10/14
IDLY: 8/12/14
S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids)
D Mentioned: 10/15/14
Confronted about OM: 10/15/14
EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13
She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 5,301
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 5,301
Hi Sandi

That's such a useful list, and when you see it all set out in that way, you can see why this is such a long process. That shift from entitlement, self-centredness and so on, to taking responsibility is a huge one.

In your experience, does that shift just 'happen' for someone one day? Like a huge 2x4? Or do you think it's a gradual realisation? I'm talking opposite gender too here....

Thanks so much for this helpful thread. I think it's useful to have some general threads on the forum as well as our individual ones, and your advice is so useful...((Sandi))


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 629
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 629
Sandi, thank you for the list. It is very useful. Very good information. Although I don't know what my future holds, I have my doubts my W will go through any of these. All these years together, my W has always struggled with admitting her faults. Or doing anything to try to repair things. I have struggled admitting my faults also. But usually I am the one that helps us make up after a argument. She could stew on things for days if you let her.

It just hit me like a 2 x 4!! By me always being the one to make up first, I was trying to control the situation. I never allowed my W to deal with what was going on herself and her emotions. I never DETACHED from the situation!! Am I correct?

Last edited by Joe406; 03/27/15 02:54 PM.

Me:44
EXW 44
Wonderful Children
M11, T14
BD 6/14
OM Confirmed
Divorce Final 2/25/16
"It works if you work it!"

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
Originally Posted By: sandi2
These are in no special order.

I think emphasis should be placed on the disclaimer at the top.

Overall I think that if you look at the stages of grief that those need to be gone through by all parties.

So the one having the affair will need to grieve the loss of the affair partner, and if they then decide to try to reconcile they must grieve the loss of the marriage before they can reconcile.

So you have Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Withdrawal, Acceptance.

Neither partner can not avoid this, nor can you press any buttons, or have any magic fixes.

This is why DB is so good, at helping us through this time period.

JMHO.


Me-70, D37,S36
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,902
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,902
This list of steps/actions a WW might need to do in order to reconcile is good to understand. What would be the difference, if any, from a WW that had an EA that didn't become physical?


Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
Originally Posted By: Fogg
This list of steps/actions a WW might need to do in order to reconcile is good to understand. What would be the difference, if any, from a WW that had an EA that didn't become physical?

None except maybe the medical exam, if you really believe that it was only an EA.(not sure I would advise that you believe)


Me-70, D37,S36
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,807
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,807
God - I just read Sandi's list and am can't see my WAW doing any of these things. In fact, she has done none of them, the affair is my fault, I am a creep, she resents my grief, I call all the shots, is angry still about an incident that happened 7 years ago, and blames me for any negative consequence that occurs due to her infidelity.

Continuing to acccept reality, have no expectations and GAL.

I just feel very very down at it today.


Was made a better person by DB'ers
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
Originally Posted By: HeavyD
In fact, she has done none of them, the affair is my fault, I am a creep, she resents my grief, I call all the shots, is angry still about an incident that happened 7 years ago, and blames me for any negative consequence that occurs due to her infidelity.


I will repeat what I wrote in the last thread

Originally Posted By: Cadet
You know no matter what your transgressions were,
no matter how bad you messed up,

YOU did not cause the affair/infidelity!

I think most LBS's are codependent and tbh this is the
area that they need to work on the most.
Being told what to do and when to do it,
is not healthy behavior.
We are now adults and get to choose the life that we want to live.
It takes a long time to understand that.


She is telling you SCRIPT and is nowhere near ready to return.
So - YES - it is correct that she has done none of the steps.

Do you understand that?


Me-70, D37,S36
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 943
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 943
Quote:
God - I just read Sandi's list and am can't see my WAW doing any of these things. In fact, she has done none of them, the affair is my fault, I am a creep, she resents my grief, I call all the shots, is angry still about an incident that happened 7 years ago, and blames me for any negative consequence that occurs due to her infidelity.


Why are you accepting responsibility for her choices? Yes you messed up. You're human too and are working to take responsibility for what you did. She'll have to do the same.

One of the themes that's always present, the spouse that's leaving has to vilify the other spouse. Otherwise, they can't justify it in their heads. A pain in the A$$ to accept and I struggle with it A LOT. But it's part of what happens.

You can only own/control you. DB is for us that were left behind and always was. If we're not strong as individuals, then the WAS will feel they did the right thing.

Focus on small things that went well today. Some days that might just be getting up and dressed. wink


Me: 45 W43
S7, Foster S9 (Planning to adopt post divorce)
D mentioned Feb 2015, Wife served 3/24/2015. She moved out 4/15/2015.
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 250
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 250
Originally Posted By: HeavyD
God - I just read Sandi's list and am can't see my WAW doing any of these things. In fact, she has done none of them, the affair is my fault, I am a creep, she resents my grief, I call all the shots, is angry still about an incident that happened 7 years ago, and blames me for any negative consequence that occurs due to her infidelity.

Continuing to acccept reality, have no expectations and GAL.

I just feel very very down at it today.


HeavyD: I hear you. I'm in the same boat. Not a pleasant place to be, and very heartbreaking.


Me M51
WW F46
T 17 yrs
M 16 yrs
9 children D29 D27 D26 S24 S24 S19 S19 niece18 S17
8 grandchildren
ILYBINILWY: 12/15/14
I discover PA 12/31/14
She files D: 1/9/15
She moves out 3/2/15
D papers served 3/18/15
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Originally Posted By: Sherman333


Why are you accepting responsibility for her choices? Yes you messed up. You're human too and are working to take responsibility for what you did. She'll have to do the same.

One of the themes that's always present, the spouse that's leaving has to vilify the other spouse. Otherwise, they can't justify it in their heads. A pain in the A$$ to accept and I struggle with it A LOT. But it's part of what happens.

You can only own/control you. DB is for us that were left behind and always was. If we're not strong as individuals, then the WAS will feel they did the right thing.

Focus on small things that went well today. Some days that might just be getting up and dressed. wink



whistle whistle whistle whistle


Awesome post, Sherman!


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,902
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,902
Originally Posted By: Joe406
Sandi, thank you for the list. It is very useful. Very good information. Although I don't know what my future holds, I have my doubts my W will go through any of these. All these years together, my W has always struggled with admitting her faults. Or doing anything to try to repair things. I have struggled admitting my faults also. But usually I am the one that helps us make up after a argument. She could stew on things for days if you let her.

It just hit me like a 2 x 4!! By me always being the one to make up first, I was trying to control the situation. I never allowed my W to deal with what was going on herself and her emotions. I never DETACHED from the situation!! Am I correct?


This is exactly what I would do also. No matter what the fight was about I would be the one to apologize first just to end the tension. I felt like she had issues admitting to her faults, and she does, but I contributed to it by never allowing her the time to come to terms with it and realize her mistake. I just added to the idea that I was the one always doing wrong. Reading NMMNG has made me aware that trying to do the "right thing" all the time to end the conflict early did more harm than good.


Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,807
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,807
Sherman333 and Fogg and Starsky309

Thank you for taking time to read and comment on my post.

Yes, you are all right, I don't have to take responsibility for her choices. When I made mistakes (and there were PLENTY) over the years, I wrote letters to express my remorse, I told her over and over again how sorry I was to have caused her any pain, I went through therapy, I attended support groups, anything I could think of to improve and prove I was "worthy" of her. I told her many many times that I had her to thank for our two wonderful children and how happy and proud I was she was my wife.

She has never done any of that for me. She did go to the doctor for medication because she was so "angry" during her monthly cycles. I suggested that and she actually did it.

So in review of our marriage I realize that I must be co-dependent. Jeez another issue to work on. I thought that i what everybody did in marriage, work harder to make things right and to keep the peace. It seems I am a continual work in progress. I will never stop trying to improve me though. I will always try.

It's taken our separation for me to "see" and "get" what it means and how it is viewed by the other partner who is in "control". It is not an honest and equal partnership. We all deserve better than that.

My WAW is not a bad person, but like me has many flaws. The difference between us is that I admit them and work on them through action. She never has. When we went through Martial Counseling recently, she turned the tables on me and said it was for Co-Parenting therapy. We had never discussed that and that was not the reason I made the call to seek marital therapy.

Again, I am not a saint, have made many mistakes, but accept ownership of them and am not a quitter.

The rope has been dropped.


Was made a better person by DB'ers
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 788
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 788
I recommend NMMNG to everyone. It fit me so well that for a while I wondered if the author hadn't secretly followed me around! smile

I apologize for the hijack, but for Starsky, Sandi, Wonka, et. al. (really anyone who's interested) I had to change my name and my thread after D15 found it. I've been keeping it updated, but there's nothing earth-shattering or urgent right now. I'd just hate to lose your wisdom at this stage of the game because you couldn't find me!


My new thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2550218#Post2550218


Ex Rzrback
Me 43 Her 44
D11, D15
T21, M19
BD 9/9/2014
Piecing

Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,807
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,807
Cadet

Yes, I get it - believe me I get it.

I do agree that I am codependent and have been attending the CODA workshops when I don't have the kids (every other week). A lot of it resonates with me. I have read the Codependant No More book by Melanie Beatty. Again, I recognize myself in there.

Working on it and trying to get to a place where I feel good about ME


Was made a better person by DB'ers
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 629
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 629
Me too!! Hello, my name is Joe! I am codependent!


Me:44
EXW 44
Wonderful Children
M11, T14
BD 6/14
OM Confirmed
Divorce Final 2/25/16
"It works if you work it!"

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,807
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,807
It's a weird feeling to realize your are codependent.

For example, when things were good with my WAW, everything was good, birds were singing, people on the street were friendly, I was on top of the world.

When we got into an argument, everything was bad. The people on the street looked menacing, my peception of the weather was bad, and I was in a funk.

I can now realize those are clasic symptoms of Co Dependancy.


Was made a better person by DB'ers
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,902
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,902
Looks like a new book I should be reading, these comments on being co-dependent appear to be me also.


Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 788
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 788
And I'm codependent too!

I thought codependency was only about substance abuse, but I read (on Starsky' advice, IIRC) CNM and saw myself in it. It's really for anyone enmeshed in an unhealthy, overdependent R. My M definitely applied.


Ex Rzrback
Me 43 Her 44
D11, D15
T21, M19
BD 9/9/2014
Piecing

Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Thanks MCS for your heartfelt post. Toots, to try and respond to your question about the process, I think it is usually slow. Every person is different, of course. As I said, that list is in no special order, however, I do believe consequences for the wayward spouse is first. B/c without consequences, he/she continues blazing their trail of destruction and blaming the LBS.

I am not saying the LBS should appoint themselves as the executioner for consequences for the wayward spouse, but I will say the LBS can pull the plug on compromising those things they refer as doing "as a family" after the bomb has been dropped. I am not in agreement with those actions at all b/c it prolongs the process. There could be a few circumstances that are difficult to avoid, but I'm referring to these betrayed spouses who choose to continue the "togetherness" in family activities. Any LBS who mistakenly thinks they are showing the wayward what they are missing, is going about it all wrong, IMO. A WS will not miss what is still provided. See what I mean? That's just one example.

Another example is the LBS refusing to be the wayward spouse's BFF. B/c being their friend works just fine for WS. Especially the WW.

The LBH should stop being her errand boy, babysitter, cook and housekeeper, etc., trying to "help" lighten her burden, thinking he is doing 180's that are working. Hey, those actions may be 180's from his norm, but they are not the type of 180's that are effective with a wayward! This is another major difference in a WAW and wayward wife. Those acts of kindness, let's say, might be appreciated by a WAW who is not involved in wayward activity or has a wayward heart. Not so, with a wayward! I hope to get that message across about effective 180's from the betrayed H.

I could go on for pages, but the idea is to immediately pull out and detach emotionally, and stop being available for any needs the wayward has. The sooner the LBS visibly shows the WS this doesn't work, the quicker the WS will begin having consequences as a result to his/her decisions. And they may not accept that the consequences are due to their own decisions, in fact, I would say they won't at first. Women especially, will blame the LBS for everything that doesn't go peachy-keen for her. Her anger increases. She reacts from that anger. Sadly, men seem terrified of the WW's anger, which just baffles me. Let her feel the anger! Let her stew, through a fit, cry, the whole bit........just don't stand around to watch.

The fantasy has to collaspe, and it takes troubles to implode the fantasy. The LBS has to detach from it, and not try to soothe or rescue. I believe, and MWD says in one of her books, that the WAS has to suffer some type of loss. By that, I mean that particular "sting" that really hits the WS where it hurts worst. For me, it was that moment I knew it was all on me and was the result of my own wrong behavior. Don't misunderstand and think everything fell into place afterwards. It didn't! That particular "loss" or reality, was necessary to wake me up. It is like throwing freezing cold water in the face of one who is sleeping. That experience for the wayward S may even be comparable to the LBS getting the bomb, which awaken them, but it doesn't mean they automatically know what to do. In some instances, they make more mistakes by reacting to it.

It is still easy for the WS to want to deny full responsibility. I'm sure it varies in people's experiences. Accepting full responsibility without excuses, and without pointing fingers at the LBS, and/or the problems in the MR, is huge. It's hard! It doesn't come easy, or fast. Once accepted, then how does the WS deal with the results? Well, that's another part of the process.

Making conscious choices, based on the right thing to do and not out of sheer emotions, has to come from the WS. Depending on how messed up they may be mentally/emotionally, they may turn to someone (or some source) for advice. Problem is, who/what will be that source. So, this is a critical time. For me, I sought advice from a forum called Divorce Busting, which I thank God every day. It could have been the wrong people giving me bad advice.

The WS has to freely make a choice to turn and head in the right direction. If they try to keep one foot in an A and one foot in the M, it won't work in favor of the M. Again, I was fortunate to get the right information for what I would have to do, which was to end all contact, forever, with OM. Many WS do not have that guidance and their heads are not clear enough to "just know" it, although you would think anyone in their right mind would. Even with the fog lifted, there is still an amount of emotional confusion. The inclination is to follow the feelings, which of course, are very fickle.

Making the decision to turn back in the right direction does not automatically clear all those negative feelings in the heart of the WS. For me, it took a long time before I could truthfully say I no longer had the resentment, disrespect, rebellious attitude, etc. That was a real process in itself.

For a lot of people, our moral/religious foundation may play a large part in getting our heart set right. For those who do not have high standards as their primary foundation, I simply would not know what to tell you. B/c for me, personally, it was as much a spiritual issue for me, as it was a marital issue. God, family, and church had been my life. I could not have a good relationship with God when I held these wrong feelings in my heart. It was an absolute necessity for me to have that peace with my God, in order to make it through. For me, that trumped everything else. I realize this is not how everyone believes, it was just my own. That had to come first, in order to have an authentic MR with my H. Make sense?

So, I prayed, I sought counsel, I read, and prayed even more. I would think, "Okay, I've got this", but then realize those roots of bitterness were still there....and I had to keep chopping away until it was gone. Sorry, of this sounds dramatic. It was, for me. Just sharing my personal struggles.

Forgiving my LBH for everything in the past, and letting it go........wow! Was that hard to do! May sound self-righteous to the ears of you who have betrayed, but it is really about all that ANGER in the WW's heart (I would think probably the WH, too). To stop blaming him and forgive him, I am ashamed to say, took me a long time. But when I finally went to him with a remorseful heart for all the pain I CAUSED HIM, then I was able to let it go. It is a two-way street in finding peace.

Actually, I went through the withdrawals and months of depression before I went to him iwith a remorseful heart to ask his forgiveness and let go of my wrong feelings I had clung to for years and years. I am not saying that is the correct order of things, but I doubt I would have made that step as long as OM was floating around in my head.

The sooner the WW can seek forgiveness and set her H free of the blame for everything, the easier it is to cooperate in piecing the M back together. Strangely enough, in my case, it was not the LBS receiving the information about transparency, etc. He did not have the tools I was getting from the DB folks. I did ask him to go with me to get MC to help us, and he refused. But that was my stitch, and doesn't mean everyone's the same. Therefore, based on the guidance I was receiving on the board, this old WW followed the advice about the NC, and transparency. I believe it was through my transparency, and the fact my H was checking to verify (b/c that is part of it), he was able to establish the beginning of new trust in me. I took accountability by the horns, so to speak. It is through my experience and what I have observed in others over the years, that I strongly believe that the accountability is for her sake as much as for his, if not more. Otherwise, it would just be too easy to slide back into contacting the AP. The WW's willpower, alone, may not hold, but knowing she is willingly showing her computer and phone activity, etc. to her H, whenever he wants to look......sure helps her hold the line, IMO.

Yikes! I better close this post b/c of length.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Therefore, based on the guidance I was receiving on the board, this old WW followed the advice about the NC, and transparency. I believe it was through my transparency, and the fact my H was checking to verify (b/c that is part of it), he was able to establish the beginning of new trust in me. I took accountability by the horns, so to speak. It is through my experience and what I have observed in others over the years, that I strongly believe that the accountability is for her sake as much as for his, if not more. Otherwise, it would just be too easy to slide back into contacting the AP. The WW's willpower, alone, may not hold, but knowing she is willingly showing her computer and phone activity, etc. to her H, whenever he wants to look......sure helps her hold the line, IMO.




Yeah, it's amazing, when you have that Weight Watchers weigh-in the next day, it's much easier to avoid the late-nite hot fudge sundae!!! Accountability.

Great (and heartfelt) post, Sandi.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
Starsky,

Originally Posted By: Starsky309


Yeah, it's amazing, when you have that Weight Watchers weigh-in the next day, it's much easier to avoid the late-nite hot fudge sundae!!! Accountability.
Starsky


Not me. I would have plowed through that delicious sundae!! Accountability be damned! grin

Sandi,

Thank you for articulating the main point for LBHs whose WAW is in an A: stop being such a wet noodle and grab the bull by the horns from the get-go. It starts with dropping the rabid FEAR in you. Your WAW is a paper tigeress.

In summary, the action list should be something like this upon arriving at the DB forum in short order:

1-Keep DB to yourself and hide the DR book. You don't give away the playbook to the opponent. ERASE all browsing history on your computer.
2-LOSE YOUR FEAR of WAW. Reclaim your balls back from her purse.
3-Pull out the "not willing to live in an open M/no-OM boundary" script.
4-Stop sharing the same MBR with your WAW. You are not willing to share her with another man. Tell WAW that "you have decided that you prefer she sleep in another room."
5-Sex? Forget it. It all stops right now. Same as above.
6-DO NOT have convos with WAW about the OM. You are not her gay boyfriend. You are her H. Do not acknowledge or speak about the OM at all.
7- Move all of your FINANCIAL assets into a new banking account with just your name on it (no more joint $$ with WAW) and cancel joint credit cards. Be sure to inform bank officers that your WAW is not to get a loan or open a card with your name ...they must call you first to alert of this.
8-Cut off all joint cell phone plans (you are not financing W's affair by paying for her smartphone to continue conducting her A on the family's money)
9-Only pay expenses related to children (if you have any) and other praticalities
10-Consult with a Lawyer to know your rights. Go in for an informational meeting with 3 to 4 attorneys. Keep it to yourself. Knowledge is power.
11-Cancel all MC sessions. It is ineffective as long as your WAW is in an A and just going there for appearance's sake to claim that "they tried." Pshaw!
12-Don't drive or pick her up from the airport. She can figure this out herself.
12-Make your own GAL plans. Don't drop them if WAW cries to you that she needs you to "babysit" the kids or threatens you.
13-Stop going into an overdrive cleaning the house or doing the laundry. Makes you look like the gay housekeeper from La Cage aux Folles movie.



Last edited by Wonka; 03/27/15 07:56 PM.
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 145
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 145
Originally Posted By: Wonka

9-Only pay expenses related to children (if you have any)

I'd like to add something to this that I did in my sitch, I told my W that any purchases for the kids or house needed my approval FIRST. Otherwise I would not be paying.


life is too short....
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 1
Wonka - I think it can be very helpful for newcomers to see this initial plan of action. I might add it to the resources at the top of my thread.

sandi2- Again, wow. I've a question. In your sitch, did you ever leave your H or intended to? I'm asking because the WW of many LBH here have admitted to the affair and left the marital home. For them, it's not a matter of getting a little fulfillment on the side, but of giving up on their H and changing partner altogether. I wonder if it makes a difference in how we should approach the sitches or if it's just splitting hair.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 250
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 250
Originally Posted By: Mozza
Wonka - I think it can be very helpful for newcomers to see this initial plan of action. I might add it to the resources at the top of my thread.

sandi2- Again, wow. I've a question. In your sitch, did you ever leave your H or intended to? I'm asking because the WW of many LBH here have admitted to the affair and left the marital home. For them, it's not a matter of getting a little fulfillment on the side, but of giving up on their H and changing partner altogether. I wonder if it makes a difference in how we should approach the sitches or if it's just splitting hair.


Yes, Mozza, I agree. What does the LBH do when WW leaves, files for divorce, and pursues R with OM? Starsky, in particular, talks of fighting for his W and R. How can one do that when the W is no longer there, or interested?


Me M51
WW F46
T 17 yrs
M 16 yrs
9 children D29 D27 D26 S24 S24 S19 S19 niece18 S17
8 grandchildren
ILYBINILWY: 12/15/14
I discover PA 12/31/14
She files D: 1/9/15
She moves out 3/2/15
D papers served 3/18/15
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
Originally Posted By: Kramer
Originally Posted By: Mozza
Wonka - I think it can be very helpful for newcomers to see this initial plan of action. I might add it to the resources at the top of my thread.

sandi2- Again, wow. I've a question. In your sitch, did you ever leave your H or intended to? I'm asking because the WW of many LBH here have admitted to the affair and left the marital home. For them, it's not a matter of getting a little fulfillment on the side, but of giving up on their H and changing partner altogether. I wonder if it makes a difference in how we should approach the sitches or if it's just splitting hair.


Yes, Mozza, I agree. What does the LBH do when WW leaves, files for divorce, and pursues R with OM? Starsky, in particular, talks of fighting for his W and R. How can one do that when the W is no longer there, or interested?


Are you asking what steps to take if the WAW has already moved out of the marital house and is still actively involved with the OM, Kramer? Is this what you're asking here?

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,810
Originally Posted By: Kramer
What does the LBH do when WW leaves, files for divorce, and pursues R with OM? Starsky, in particular, talks of fighting for his W and R. How can one do that when the W is no longer there, or interested?


To be clear, I almost always recommend fighting for the marriage EARLY -- for some pre-determined amount of time that you can stomach, post-BD (3-4 mos.?) Once there is an active legal divorce action, it would be very rare that I would recommend that someone "fight for" a wayward spouse.

A lot of it depends on "what do you know, when do you know it, and does SHE know that you know," so it can be more complicated than that, but generally speaking I advocate all of the strong moves (establish boundaries, firewall finances, fight for your marriage, aggressive affair-busting) be done EARLY and POWERFULLY. Over time, if the wayward spouse is still unrepentant and unwilling to end their affair, I'm more of a "RobX/let them go" guy.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 250
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 250
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Originally Posted By: Kramer
Originally Posted By: Mozza
Wonka - I think it can be very helpful for newcomers to see this initial plan of action. I might add it to the resources at the top of my thread.

sandi2- Again, wow. I've a question. In your sitch, did you ever leave your H or intended to? I'm asking because the WW of many LBH here have admitted to the affair and left the marital home. For them, it's not a matter of getting a little fulfillment on the side, but of giving up on their H and changing partner altogether. I wonder if it makes a difference in how we should approach the sitches or if it's just splitting hair.


Yes, Mozza, I agree. What does the LBH do when WW leaves, files for divorce, and pursues R with OM? Starsky, in particular, talks of fighting for his W and R. How can one do that when the W is no longer there, or interested?


Are you asking what steps to take if the WAW has already moved out of the marital house and is still actively involved with the OM, Kramer? Is this what you're asking here?



Yes, that is exactly what I am asking.


Me M51
WW F46
T 17 yrs
M 16 yrs
9 children D29 D27 D26 S24 S24 S19 S19 niece18 S17
8 grandchildren
ILYBINILWY: 12/15/14
I discover PA 12/31/14
She files D: 1/9/15
She moves out 3/2/15
D papers served 3/18/15
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 250
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 250
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Originally Posted By: Kramer
What does the LBH do when WW leaves, files for divorce, and pursues R with OM? Starsky, in particular, talks of fighting for his W and R. How can one do that when the W is no longer there, or interested?


To be clear, I almost always recommend fighting for the marriage EARLY -- for some pre-determined amount of time that you can stomach, post-BD (3-4 mos.?) Once there is an active legal divorce action, it would be very rare that I would recommend that someone "fight for" a wayward spouse.

A lot of it depends on "what do you know, when do you know it, and does SHE know that you know," so it can be more complicated than that, but generally speaking I advocate all of the strong moves (establish boundaries, firewall finances, fight for your marriage, aggressive affair-busting) be done EARLY and POWERFULLY. Over time, if the wayward spouse is still unrepentant and unwilling to end their affair, I'm more of a "RobX/let them go" guy.


Starsky


Well, I certainly did the aggressive affair busting early on. I sent an email to OM and W the night that I found out, and informed all of the adult children as well. This INFURIATED W and she said that there is no way she could ever get over the embarrassment, so she actively pursued divorce. I suspect that the REAL reason for quick divorce is to pursue R with OM, but it let's her save face by blaming me for exposing A and "embarrassing" her. Our "children" are all over 18, and are not happy with her choices.


Me M51
WW F46
T 17 yrs
M 16 yrs
9 children D29 D27 D26 S24 S24 S19 S19 niece18 S17
8 grandchildren
ILYBINILWY: 12/15/14
I discover PA 12/31/14
She files D: 1/9/15
She moves out 3/2/15
D papers served 3/18/15
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Wonka, Starsky, y'all are the greatest! That list Wonka wrote looks like a guide made for the LBS. Hummm, has a ring to it. Since this thread is about to close, maybe we can start a new one with that title. "Guide for the LBH who has a WW". smile

The invitation is open to all who have questions or advice.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
Originally Posted By: Kramer
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Originally Posted By: Kramer
What does the LBH do when WW leaves, files for divorce, and pursues R with OM? Starsky, in particular, talks of fighting for his W and R. How can one do that when the W is no longer there, or interested?


To be clear, I almost always recommend fighting for the marriage EARLY -- for some pre-determined amount of time that you can stomach, post-BD (3-4 mos.?) Once there is an active legal divorce action, it would be very rare that I would recommend that someone "fight for" a wayward spouse.

A lot of it depends on "what do you know, when do you know it, and does SHE know that you know," so it can be more complicated than that, but generally speaking I advocate all of the strong moves (establish boundaries, firewall finances, fight for your marriage, aggressive affair-busting) be done EARLY and POWERFULLY. Over time, if the wayward spouse is still unrepentant and unwilling to end their affair, I'm more of a "RobX/let them go" guy.


Starsky


Well, I certainly did the aggressive affair busting early on. I sent an email to OM and W the night that I found out, and informed all of the adult children as well. This INFURIATED W and she said that there is no way she could ever get over the embarrassment, so she actively pursued divorce. I suspect that the REAL reason for quick divorce is to pursue R with OM, but it let's her save face by blaming me for exposing A and "embarrassing" her. Our "children" are all over 18, and are not happy with her choices.


Kramer, I am going to defer this to Starsky as he has had actual experience with this and is better positioned to answer your inquiry than I could. smile

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
Sandi,

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Wonka, Starsky, y'all are the greatest! That list Wonka wrote looks like a guide made for the LBS LBHs. Hummm, has a ring to it. Since this thread is about to close, maybe we can start a new one with that title. "Guide for the LBH who has a WW". smile

The invitation is open to all who have questions or advice.


I think the DB approach for LBWs should differ slightly from the LBHs. Because the female and male dynamic is quite different.

Case in point.

For WAWs, the connection to the OM is emotional.

For WAHs, the connection is visual and sexual.

For DBing to be successful, the LBH needs to come down HARD on the WAW because the emotional allure is like a powerful riptide tearing her and the M asunder.

For DBing to be successful, the LBW needs to re-attract her WAH for men really like the chase and are visually-oriented.

Generally, your "Sandi's Rules" list applies to both sets of LBSes equally irrespective of the situation: IA, EA, PA, MLC.


Last edited by Wonka; 03/27/15 10:34 PM.
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 1
Great discussion on fighting for the M or not and how. I'll put my question out there once more because it was slightly different.

Originally Posted By: Mozza
sandi2- Again, wow. I've a question. In your sitch, did you ever leave your H or intended to? I'm asking because the WW of many LBH here have admitted to the affair and left the marital home. For them, it's not a matter of getting a little fulfillment on the side, but of giving up on their H and changing partner altogether. I wonder if it makes a difference in how we should approach the sitches or if it's just splitting hair.

I'd really like to have the clarification about what sandi2 did or intended to do. Also, I'm not really asking about once the person has left. I'm asking if there is a difference in how we approach the sitch when the WW just wants a secret A and when she wants to replace the H. Sandi2 talks about the WW realizing the wrong she's doing, which is clear for a secret A, but I'm not sure if there is such a path for a WW who wants to leave the M altogether. Clearer? Thanks!


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Okay, I started a new thread. I will try to answer your question there, b/c I think this thread is about to close. Give me just a couple (or more) minutes. You know how slow I can get. smile


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 1
saindi2 - I like these posts so much that I've started a new section at the top of my threads called the "sandi2 collection" where I link to selected posts from this conversation.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
sandi2 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
I answered your question in the new thread, but I didn't realize it had not been submitted till this morning.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78


Me-70, D37,S36
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 10 11

Moderated by  Cadet, DnJ, job, Michele Weiner-Davis 

Link Copied to Clipboard