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Oct 14-28, 2014 | W cheating and near-separation in 2009, search for explanations for BD 2014
Oct 28-Nov 4 | OM confirmed through kids on Halloween, refocus on me rather than blaming W
Nov 4-10 | OM confirmed by W in email, strollergate, W has problems at work, unexpected blind date
Nov 10-18 | Lunch with W went well, reflections on being dumped, kids and OM
Nov 18-Dec 8 | W warms up but OM set to move in in January, W's birthday email
Dec 8-Jan 2, 2015 | To be nice or not to be, two trips make me feel better, office party video
Jan 2-16 | Turning down lunch invite, telling W I need to move on, W emails about D
Jan 16-31 | WAW wants to change job, move to her country, I agree to meet
Feb 2-25 | Plans for moving abroad are nixed, D papers are delayed at my request, flirting experiments begin
Feb 27-Mar 24 | D7 birthday plans, PMA crash, serial cheating, dating debate, detachment at last?

My story
After 9.5 years together and two kids, my W announced in early September 2014 that she wanted a separation. A week of pleading and begging didn't change a thing. She said she wanted to be free, alone, find her true self, that I was criticizing her too much, that we're incompatible, that she was unhappy and no longer in love with me and she didn't want to live with half-emotions. She had told me before of some of those complaints and that she was miserable. We had not yet addressed everything, we would fight more than average, and I wasn't changing fast enough, so she was growing hopeless that things would improve.

A week after BD, she moved out. A month and a half later, she confirmed my suspicions that she was with a coworker, met at the new job she started a month before BD (after a year of job-seeking funded by me). A good listener, 10 years younger than me, better-looking and athletic, he'd been courting her from week 1 and was omnipresent throughout her move. He moved in with her in January. Our two daughters know and like him and generally take the S in strides.

DBing
I accept responsibility for what I did in the M, by being too critical and dismissive of my W's feelings. I understand that my W was looking for something she wasn't finding in the M. I sometimes understand why she left, since she was miserable, and sometimes think leaving was too strong a reaction for the situation. I tend to blame her flight reflex and unrealistic expectations for love and family life.

My stance at the moment is to let her live her life while I reflect and try to focus on me. In January, I told her I didn't want to interact beyond the practicalities of the kids because I need to move on. I'm good at being silent and distant so the "no pursuing" rule is easy to apply for me. After six months and little contact, I can say that detachment is starting to take hold. I see a therapist since BD.
_________________________________________________

SUCCESS STORIES
I update this list every time I start a new thread. Feel free to make suggestions, especially with links to threads. I wish we had room in our profile to tell our story so that the vets and other successes could give us a quick summary.

Reconciliation
Thornton (M) - May to July 2014
Train (W) - Reconciled in 2014
Labug (W) - March 2011 to December 2013
HopefulStill - reconciled in 2012
minkerman (M) - Reconciled after 4 months in 2008
25yearsmlc (W) - 2005 to August 2008
FaithfulH - Reconciled in 2007
sandi2 (W) - 2007
Coach (M) - 2008
MrBond (M) - Used to have another screen name
Starsky309 (M) - (ChocolateEyes, Puppy Dog Tails) - Aug 2007 to 2009. Exposed his W's A.
Butterflymom127 and FavoriteWeirdo - Thread
LITB (M) - December 2010 to May 2012
Raine (W) - Dec 2012 to November 2014 (MLC)
ReachingHigher (W) - April 2012 to May 2014
SM34 (M) - December 2012 to December 2013
(newly added) AliSuddenly (W) - H left in January 2008, moved out, had OW. Piecing May 2009, married July 2010
(newly added) kalni (W) - BD on November 2007, piecing in January 2010
(newly added) Angel61 (W)- BD June 2010, H had EA, Retrouvailles November 2011

Piecing as of 2014-2015
(newly added) T0324 (W) H leaves in Febr 2014, filed for D, had OW, piecing fails in Aug 2014, piecing again in Mar 2015
Crimson (W)
Heart14 (W) Signs 2014-02, DB 2014-07, Piecing since 2014-07
Nitty - BD in December 2013, piecing as of September 2014

Letting go
Love2Surf (M) - March 2010 to 2012
pearlharbr (W) - November 2008 to June 2010 (19 months)
Snow White (W) - 2008-2009. Let go when her H wanted back in.
Drew (M) - 2008
BigMac (M) - June 2014 to February 2015 WAW offered R at the last minute and he turned it down
(newly added) Underdog (Betsey) D final in May 2005

Resources
Validation | Boundaries | Detachment | Acronyms | Stockdale paradox
(newly added) The sandi2 collection: The Wayward Wife | It takes time | Letting back too easy

Media
Articles: How to handle a heartbreak (NYTimes) | HuffPost: R after 43 years
Podcasts: Reunited (This American Life) Couple remarries after 2.5 years. | (newly added) Cheating (Death, Sex and Money)


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So, looking at the success stories above...

IMPORTANT PSA FOR NEWCOMERS
Have a look at AliSuddenly's story. Her H left her almost overnight, he moved out, had an OW and a year later, they were still apart and AliSuddenly wanted closure. Yet, four months later, they were in piecing. Also, crucially, she detached before it happened. Sounds familiar? You're 3-6-9-15 months into an "impossible" sitch? Please, please read this and understand how DB works. While you're at it, notice how long an average sitch lasts: the newly added reconciliations went on for 16 to 27 months from DB to piecing. Stop spending time and energy being pessimistic or guessing your chances of R. Focus that energy on you and on DBing for real.

Here's something that HeavyD wrote on on her thread about the success stories.

Originally Posted By: HeavyD
I wanted to thank you Mozza also for being so positive. I really like your success stories that you thoughtfully compile and share with the readers. I know it must take a lot of time and energy to do this. It's a nice way to give back and I admire you for it.

Thank you so much. Yes, I spend hours on this list. Researching, writing, formatting (pesky HMTL!), etc. Every time, it's nice to hear that it's appreciated. It's indeed my way of giving back to the community. I'm very grateful to everyone who provides leads to success stories and resources, like jim0987 who found AliSuddenly, kalni and Angel61 last month. Keep 'em coming.

Once again, I'm happy that my last thread covered a longer than usual period, almost four weeks. My sitch has calmed down a lot and I need to get things done rather than report the play-by-plays for advice or effect. It's almost funny: my WW has probably no idea that I'm spending all this time getting over the S. And that's the plan.


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Hi Mozza,

Since you are the boundary guru, can I bother you to check out my thread really quickly for some advice on setting my first boundary with my WW?

RAI

P.S. Sorry for the oh-so-brief Hijacking. I don't know how to address specific members.


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Oops, I think I meant Wonka. Nevertheless, you valued input would be appreciated.

RAI


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Yesterday, I reflected on what I'm doing to become a better man. Today, I found this post that I wrote on January 2. It all still applies and I'm proud of it.

Originally Posted By: Mozza
Here are the things I learnt at and since BD.

1) Speak with my actions. When I catch myself about to say something about who I am, how I think, my values, etc, I shut up and demonstrate it. I enjoy it greatly because it feels genuine. It's the same with an apology: I make it short and I make sure to be careful next time rather than come up with an excuse. Also, I observe my actions to define who I am. It's more demanding.

2) Let go. Now that I've the opposite of control over my W, I've no choice but to let her do everything she wants her own way. It's been liberating. Oh, in the moment, I wish I could influence her, but over time it feels much better to have accepted things be done differently and that we get along.

3) STFU. On this board and looking at old emails between my W and me, I see that my desire to clarify and nuance everything got in the way. It restarted arguments that were settled, it dragged on discussions while we could have used the energy elsewhere.

My mom also volunteered yesterday that she noticed I'm more patient than ever.
________________________

And now, importing posts from the previous thread.

Underdog | Thank you so much. You had me re-read my own post to realize that, yes, it is uplifting. I assure you that it's all genuine to my feelings. By the way, I added your success story under the Letting go section above.

Miler | Thanks for stopping by and making me the recipient of your first post outside your own thread! wink To what do I owe the honor?

Labug | Thanks for adding your perspective to the dating debate. I will get back to it soon and will address everything in more details. I think it's good to sleep on it for a little while.

RAI | I replied on your thread. Hopefully Wonka will also stop by and give you the whipping that you deserve. wink
________________________

GAL Report | Major GAL ahead! Today I bought tickets for a 3-day music festival at the end of July, with some 40 bands. I haven't been this excited about a GAL activity since BD. It's just perfect: I'll get to meet new people, to make the most of a central summer week-end, listen to music and dance. Oh I'm so looking forward to it. I'm grateful that I get to do this. As for today's GAL, I had lunch with a close friend.

Work Report | I called my parents for 2.5 hours this morning while I was getting things done. I would chat with them and describe what I was up to, then listen to their stories. It's what I needed not to fall into procrastination habits. As a result, I reached most of my goals for the day. Much better than yesterday anyway. Working alone is hard.

PMA Report | It's a bit down overall from yesterday, apart from a few ups when I think of the music festival. D7 caught me at the dinner table on the verge of crying and said "You look sad" to which I replied "Yes I am. Are you also sad sometimes?" She didn't ask me why I was sad, thankfully. I don't have a ready made answer.

Detachment Report | A sign that I'm holding to detachment by a thread is that seeing a list of email exchanges with WW pre-BD reminded me of the good days and I could barely hold it in. NC is so much more about me than anything else.


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Hi Mozza,

You are really amazing. One of these days you will report that you are giving marriage counseling. You have so much knowledge about this whole thing, it's impressive.

Thanks for posting all the success stories, I can probably say for all of us here in these boards that it is very, very helpful to have it all organized in one place. You are awesome.

Regarding your sitch. Well, I think you are in the right track, time will go by and things will change. No R is perfect and your W is not going to be an exception. Sooner or later she will think about what she had and what she has.
She is risking to lose you in the process.

The picture is sad, but the story is great. It's very nice that you can spend time with your kids. That alone is a reason to stand tall and seek happiness.

You are an amazing person Mozza, keep the hard work.

XOXO
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Hi Mozza,

I was thinking about you yesterday when I was driving back home from my L and started crying hard.

I remember your words saying it is OK to cry. That with time it gets better and we start giving more importance to ourselves and it does not hurt as much.

Help, comes from strange ways.

Thanks for being in my toughs yesterday, I felt better.

Take care,
Pink


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Mozza here is another link for you

MLC Success stories this thread I had re-done in 2012, although the latest purge may have taken some of these links away too.

Please be careful including links that are from outside of DB.
That is not really permitted according to the TOS.

Good work on compiling these lists.
I know someone else that is good at it too. smile smile smile


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I'm not sure why I don't post more about my sitch. I think I'm bored with it because so little happens with WW. Also, some of my thinking is stinking thinking, like wondering if we could ever be back together, if I would want to R after two As. As I wrote to others, it's a moot point not worth my time at this point, so why would I bother bringing it up here?

Because of the discussion in sandi2's thread, I've been wondering if my stich is different because my W left me when she developed an EA. I don't think so. Is it necessary that the W has acted outrageously to be a WW? What if my W gave me fair warnings, lost love and hope, then met someone, left me and then started a new R? All options are still open. Again, it's not something I focus on (I wonder if the data would support this) and I even try to block the thoughts of R, as I focus on myself and my own future. I find it healthier and more thrilling.

D7 is having some behavioral problems at school. I got a call from her teacher. One of the problems is lying, something I brought up and the teacher said that it's also an issue at school. I was quite hesitant, but I did tell the teacher that there had been a lot of lying around the S. We nevertheless agreed that the issues were likely not related to the S. This lead to an unusually long email exchange with WW where we talked about what we'd do. I'm glad that even though I don't like being in touch with her, I took the time and courage to communicate normally on this. As a married couple, we would have talked about it much more and come to a more nuanced or detailed conclusion, but I guess it's normal that certain things are different now, as a S couple.

BTW, WW asked the teacher if she thought that the problems were related to S and the teacher said no and that I had agreed with this (WW and I spoke separately with the teacher, me first). When WW wrote me this, I was thinking: "Why are you even asking? What difference does it make?"

I participated to a study on heartbreak and suicide. I've never had suicidal thought, not beyond thinking that it would be a good time for cancer to strike me. It was mostly questions on a scale of 1 to 7. It made me realize how much progress I had made in six months because I was often at the good end of the scale (good sleep, eating, etc.). The only thing that stood out for me was my lack of interest and energy in work and any projects. The researcher came to my place and stayed for 90 minutes. She was a very cute doctoral student and I was very sorry I had to kick her out to go get the kids. Oh well, our love was impossible because of the ethics code anyway.

______________________

Pink17 | Haha! I don't know what I've done to deserve such compliments and the Nice Guy in me wants to hide under the carpet while begging for more. If I'm ever a marriage counselor, I will be the Simon Cowell of the profession - just ask Calibri, RAI, Barry and claire7.

I certainly hope it's OK to cry because I did it every single day for six months. It seems like this sentence can't quite convey the magnitude of the experience. I hadn't cried for like 2-3 years before that. Yes, it gets better. I feel OK that I process my emotions this way rather than through alcohol or drugs. Good on you for crying in the car. Give it up, woman!

Cadet | Thanks for the link to the MLC success stories. I have a tab open on them and I should get to them eventually. I should also check the piecing board for more recent examples, which can be encouraging to newcomers. As for linking, thanks for the reminder. My experience is that it is tolerated as long as it's not to a competing method or website, which I understand perfectly and avoid doing. By the way, I was thinking of formatting your welcome message with hyperlinked words to make it more compact and easier to read. Would it be of interest?
______________________

PMA Report | The tears are back. They're not daily, but I did cry a few times this week. Not as badly as in the past. I cried about being sad; it was a lot of self-pity again, a lot of "poor me". I don't know what to think of it, other than I'm happy it's receding.

Flirting Report | I went bowling at a political fundraiser last night. We had so much fun. Bowling is a great flirting opportunity because it gives you something to do and talk about, some down time to talk, chances to meet many people, material to joke around, lots of laugh, etc. This girl and I ended up playing just the two of us at the end of the night and we were laughing a lot. I invited her for a drink and we went nearby. Again, lots of laugh and stories to share. I was surprised at how easy it was and also rather happy that this was really open ended. I was not interested enough to ask for her phone number, but I enjoyed the evening a lot. We parted ways at 1 am.

The larger flirting discussion is not over. I think about it quite a bit and I'll get back to it.

IC Report | My IC noted that I used the word "permission" while describing certain things I had done. He noticed that it does not designate a new desire, but rather an old one that is finally allowed to be satisfied. I find it very interesting for anyone who's on a path to self-discovery. What would you give yourself permission to do? What won't you? What does it do to you to deny these desires? Why do you?

Last edited by Mozza; 03/28/15 03:52 PM. Reason: Reply to Cadet

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Mozza,

Following you lightly for months. Glad to see you are getting to a solid point and enjoying your flirting self.

Permission...I am looking forward to giving myself permission to be self-absorbed a bit instead of so focused on him. Something my H claimed I always was (self absorbed and selfish). Who knows. If true, maybe I am happy that way. If not, I am looking for permission from myself to be my true self, the one that was so happy when I met him. Lively, flirtatious (not in a sexual way - a way that for men or women, I enjoyed laughter and showing appreciation and enjoyment of them), self-assured. I think I denied these desires because my partner didn't celebrate my spirit in the beginning. In the end, it was all about him. I can't wait to get back to being my old self.

If you would be so kind to take your Simon Cowell self over to my thread, I would sure appreciate a nice big 2x4. I know I need one, or help extracting my head from a place it shouldn't be. You once made the comment that your IC thought you self-destructed your M (or something along those lines?) Interested in your point of view.


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Originally Posted By: Mozza
Cadet | Thanks for the link to the MLC success stories. I have a tab open on them and I should get to them eventually. I should also check the piecing board for more recent examples, which can be encouraging to newcomers. As for linking, thanks for the reminder. My experience is that it is tolerated as long as it's not to a competing method or website, which I understand perfectly and avoid doing. By the way, I was thinking of formatting your welcome message with hyperlinked words to make it more compact and easier to read. Would it be of interest?

I think by strictest interpretation of the TOS outside links are not permitted.
If this has changed I am unaware of it.
Board Rules

As far as the hyperlinks, I could use those however it is my experience that some people like to copy and paste links and for some reason the forum can change some of those(copied links) to be unuseable, which is how I came up with what I do.
So I am not really sure of the right answer.

Anyways thanks for what you do do! smile

Last edited by Cadet; 03/30/15 01:15 PM. Reason: link

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So mozza, did you sleep on it?


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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Interlude.

My parents-in-law gave me a very expensive watch as a wedding gift. It was highly symbolic because in the years prior, MIL shut out her only child for 2 years because she (they) disapproved of her relationship with me (long story, I was doomed at birth). This was a symbol of my acceptance, at last, in their family. I absolutely love the watch. It's beautiful, very comfortable and, yes, quite prestigious. I wear it every day.

I've been a little concerned since S that they would ask to have it back. Then last night I had a moment of clarity: I need to return it before they even ask. It's a constant reminder of my M and final acceptance in their family, while the M is over and their daughter has finally rejected me. It's also symbolic for me of saying that I am my own man and that If I want such a watch, I'll save for it and buy it myself. I had earned it as their son-in-law and I no longer have that role. Finally, I dislike the idea that I own something that they can ask me to return any time. It feels like I'm not really letting go of the M.

FIL is coming from abroad next week and I've asked for a chance to meet him. This would be the perfect opportunity to return the watch because I don't think I'll see him in person again before D (October, according to laws and WW desires). I'd take the opportunity to thank him profusely for the gift and the symbol of acceptance, then explaining why I return it. I'd expect him to be impressed in fact, because he's a self-made-man with a lot of pride.

Thoughts?


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Don't worry about his reaction. Do it for all the reasons you said at first. About yourself and what the action means to you. Nothing else really matters.


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So mozza, why are you returning the watch? You love the watch, its your watch.

You gave some good reasons above but the reasons you stated aren't the reasons I read (could just be me though)

If it's because you simply don't want it, could you gift it to charity? Why return it? And why in person?


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I'm not sure I understand, jim0987. It seems that I've answered your questions in my original post. Why do you say these aren't the reasons you read? They're not good reasons? You wonder if I'm hiding other reasons?

What I might add is that if it were another gift, something I don't have to wear on my wrist to use it, then maybe I'd consider keeping it. I'm not even sure because a painting on the wall would also be intruding. It seems ridiculous to me to give away, hide or sell a wedding gift.


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Mozza, would you read back what you just wrote and consider your tone for a minute?

I see the point of what you're saying to Jim, but I think you need to take a moment to read yourself from his perspective. Then please go back and read what you wrote about your FIL's possible reaction to the return of the watch from an outsider's perspective.


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Thanks Maybell. I did the exercise. Was my tone offensive? Maybe because I wrote that it would be "ridiculous" to do what jim0987 suggested? If so, I'll say that when I wrote it, I didn't really realize that jim0987 had suggested it, I was rather thinking about it these options as generic ones. I'm sorry if I was demeaning of jim0987's suggestions. Or maybe it's offensive for anyone here who has wedding gifts around the house? By the way, I wouldn't return any other of the gifts, but this one is so present and symbolic (price included) that I feel like a fraud keeping it (wait, am I digging my hole here?).

Honestly, I thought that jim0987 might have skipped a word or two in his sentence and that's why I was saying that I didn't understand. English is not my native language, so sometimes I can miss idioms or have some difficulties.

As for my FIL, I mentioned that he might be impressed to explain why it might go well in the long run. I expect him to resist at first, as anyone would do when you try to return a gift, but I think that the reasons I've given here, especially the one where I feel I no longer fulfill the role for which I was wearing the watch (husband) and I'll get one for myself, would go over well with him. He respects people who pull their weight.

Or do you and jim0987 expect that the return would be a personal affront because my FIL is proud? That he would be offended that I corner him with this return in person? That it would appear like some sort of revenge for the S? I shall add that if MIL rejected me for years, FIL was always softer and kept in touch with us all along (even coming for visits in person). Also, he gained a lot of respect for me and my hardworking ways in the last few years. He would always inquire about my business and in fact we've exchanged several emails since the S where he asks about it and chit chats about his own life. There's no bad blood between us.

I seem to come across wrong here and my tally of victims is stacking up lately - claire7, stacey9, Calibri, RAI, HeavyD, Barry, etc. My recent efforts to soften up might not have helped much. I more than welcome feedback on my tone. Thanks for taking the time.


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I'll chime in here, since I'm a victim of Mozza. :-)

First, I can understand why you may no longer want the watch. I myself have a few pieces of jewelry that my MIL has given to me in the past and I'm struggling with what to do with it. I actually had the same thought you had this morning in the shower, except that I would box it up and send back to her as I do not feel comfortable having the pieces while in limbo land, and I don't know if they are heirlooms or not.

But then I thought, it smacked of self righteousness on my end. It was a Gift, given to me (before we were even married), and to return (without them asking) would be rude and stir up a hornets nest that I don't frankly have the energy for. To me, returning the gift meant that I no longer held something they chose, and wanted to me to have as valuable. That I was throwing in the towel before it was all over. That I wanted to purge them from my life (and to be honest most days I do). In the end, I decided that I will keep it safe until such matters are solved between my H and I. If we are to divorce, I will evaluate, but right now it's doing no harm sitting where it is.


That being said, I interpret your words about this watch and your actions as two different things. they conflict to me. You love the watch. It's expensive. However, you worry that it will be taken away, thus you feel you need to return it as a symbol of your M being over. however in the next breath you mention that you have new symbolism with said watch and buying one like it for yourself?

But the icing on the cake is the returning it to your father in law in person with the assumption that he will be impressed. It just.....I don't know, it comes across to me as throwing back their acceptance of you back in their face. I, personally, don't view you giving the gift back as a way of showing growth, or whatever you're hoping to achieve with it. I view it as a way for you to passive aggressively dig at your W and or her family by returning an item, in person, none the less, to show them that you're "the better person" in all of this. It's sort of "look at me, look at my growth, I don't need your gifts I'll buy my own, because I'm the new Mozza."

It just comes across as cocky and arrogant and in turn, my perception of your response to Jim came off as critical because he (and myself as well) don't understand why you need to return the watch in person.

At the end of the day, return the watch in the way that you feel appropriate. But don't do it with a hidden agenda.

---
As for coming across wrong: I can't speak for others, but I can say that you have been a (very small) factor in why I haven't chosen to open up another thread, but rest assured it's like .00000000001% of the reason I haven't posted. To me, I find it odd that you often swoop in without reading peoples full sitchs but then go in and post your comments, which are often to the point and can be conceived as insensitive, rude, or harsh.

Don't get me wrong, I think you hit the nail on the head 90% of time and I believe you have keen sense of observation and offer some good advice. Where I think you could perhaps evaluate is your delivery method. The more you read peoples sitchs the more you get a sense of how they respond, converse, react. Some people need hand holding, some people need 2x4s, some people need a mix of both. I think refining your approach and using your best judgement on how to respond to people could be a good asset for you to work on. A one size doesn't always fit all here, and I think learning to soften your tone could go a long way.

I'm glad you're taking the opportunity to ask for feedback. That's a great step and an honorable one at that.


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Great post Calibri. My thoughts entirely.

Mozza. It was a gift. It was given unconditionally and as a token of respect for you. If you return it, your FIL may interpret it as rejecting their acceptance. And also, what is expensive for us may not even come into the equation for him.

If you find you cannot wear it for the moment, I would do as Calbri suggests and store it away until things resolve. But in my opinion, you should not return it.

-----------

Mozza, your organisational skills compiling those thread resources is just amazing. Many thanks for the time and effort you put in.

Last edited by Old Dog; 03/31/15 05:57 AM.

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Hi mozza,

First off I didn't take any offence in your tone or response in case that's concerning you though it's always good to query these things if your willing to take the feedback.

Forgive me if I wasn't clear, it was 01:30 here after a long day so perhaps I could have phrased things better.

This may seem a little blunt but what I was trying to say is that when I read your reasons I simply didn't believe them. They are all good reasons and some of them are admirable but I felt like in truth its more about symbolism and gesture than the reasons you gave.

Your reasons were then the plausible justification rather than your true feelings (If I'm right its only because I'm well practised doing this myself, sometimes I even convince me).

Its like the people on here, and that'll probably be most of us at some point, who talk about filing because we want to be done when in reality we don't want to be divorced at all, we want to make some sort of gesture 'to show them' or to feel like we're turning the tables. If we really meant it we would just file, move on and be done.

Maybe its just me but I've seen it a few times, tricked myself a few times and it's a different variant of this I read in your post about the watch.

So I'll re ask the questions. Why do you want to give the watch back? Why in person?

Note not the same question as why do you want to stop wearing it?

By the way I'm always grateful for your input even when its pointed and jabby. It makes me think and I know it comes from someone who has had the kindness and decency to take time to try and help me through this - thank you

Last edited by jim0987; 03/31/15 12:16 PM.

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Originally Posted By: jim0987

Its like the people on here, and that'll probably be most of us at some point, who talk about filing because we want to be done when in reality we don't want to be divorced at all, we want to make some sort of gesture 'to show them' or to feel like we're turning the tables.
If we really meant it we would just file, move on and be done.

Its the old "DETACH" thing that hits us again.
We want to feel in CONTROL when that is not going to happen.

This is tough stuff to be sure.


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Hey Mozza. Have you heard of a book called NMMNG?

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Mozza,

I would just keep the watch - FIL wanted you to have it, I think it may cause offense to give it back.

And in no way do I see myself as one of your 'victims', I feel blessed that you took to the time to compose some very thought-provoking posts on my thread.
Thank you


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Mozza, I need to jump in here.

Regarding you coming across as offensive or harsh in your posts to me personally,..at the time, yeah sure, I thought you were a bit edgy, but not offensive as such. The freely given and thought provoking advice, the 2x4's, which I personally needed, and the kind words from someone who could relate with my sitch helped me so much through the first 8 weeks in particular. I think you're a stand-up guy Mozza, I'm a fan of yours.

Now about this watch.

Ultimately, it's up to you if you give it back or not. If it makes you happy or more comfortable to give it back, then do that. The thing is Mozza, is that you see that watch as more than it is NOW. They may well have given you it as a token of acceptance, but that's what it WAS when they gave it. It's still the same watch Mozza, it's your feelings about it that's changed.


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Hi Mozza

Might it be an idea to take the watch off and put it in a drawer for a while? There's no great need for you to decide to give it back. If you don't want it, might it be a nice idea to keep it and pass it on to one of the kids when they get older?

To me, keeping the watch doesn't do any harm at all. Returning it potentially might cause some upset...JMHO..


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And if you want a watch, I'll send you mine as I never wear one and I accept you as you just as you are :-)


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Mozza,

I second everyone else, do what YOU want and not as a gesture to appease someone else.

To change the topic slightly, just cause I got a chuckle. WW got me a 12' canoe for Fathers Day, (during the height of the A) and right before BD. She said it was so we could have outings as a family.

Well, I DID want to give that back. Have you ever tried to canoe with two kids and one paddler?!? Anyway, it still hangs in the garage.


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Thanks everyone! You're making me rethink what was a very clear decision to me. I might keep the watch a little while longer. I'm truly attached to it, but I'm afraid over time it will become a symbol of failure for me. Think of it like Lance Armstrong's trophies: does he still have a right to display them? For me, this watch is the symbol of my belonging to my family in law. Now that I'm about to D, returning it seems the honorable thing to do. I'm doing it for me.
________________________

Wow, look how many people weighed in! Thank you so much. The watch and my tone are hot topics! laugh

Maybell | I hope you'll come back to clarify your comment about the tone. I'm keen to know how I come across and work on it. Even if it's different from jim0987's reaction, I'd like to know how different people view it.

Calibri | Phew! I was afraid I had a 0.0001% responsibility! ;-) Seriously though, I really hope you'll open a new thread. I'd like to know what's going on with you. And thanks for the feedback on my tone. As you say, I might have to adjust more to my audience. I appreciate that you're very direct, by the way.

jim0987 | You had me there for a moment. Is it like filing for D? Then I realized that DBing does involve defensive actions, such as asking the WAS to leave the MBR, closing joint accounts, etc. The problem with filing is that it pushes forward the legal process that, honestly, we don't want. But returning the watch is in the first category: I don't want to insult my FIL, but I don't want to walk around feeling like a fraud for owning something I don't deserve.

Cadet | Detachment has never been my forte!

TenBook | I'm not sure I get it. I guess you see the return of the watch as a covert contract? Hopefully I clarified above. (now I'm nervous that because I ask for clarification, someone will tell me to watch my tone!)

stacey9 | Thanks for weighing in! As I wrote on your thread, I wrote you because I think you're very close to something wonderful.

Barry | Thanks Barry. Your words mean a lot to me because I know I was not easy on you. I also admire your progress and all that you have to endure on multiple fronts these days. Keep at it: this is not the rest of your life.

Toots | I thought of putting the watch away for a while and it made me realize that I really love it! We'll see.

Old Dog | Thanks a lot for your kind words. I'm very happy to know that you find these resources useful.

MCS | The timing of this gift was odd, but I guess that's what they do (lie) until they are ready to come out. In my mind, there will be someone paddling with you in the coming years!
_____________________

I plan on returning to the dating discussion very soon. Stay tuned.


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Originally Posted By: Mozza
Cadet | Detachment has never been my forte!

Too bad - as you see in my welcome post I think it is the single most important thing that we must learn and do as an LBS.

Of course there are other important things too, like self care and boundaries.

But you get my drift.


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Mozza, here's another perspective for you on the great watch debate -

1. A man that gives that kind of watch is not the kind to ask for a gift back. A key thing you said before posting all your reasons - you don't want to have something that might be asked for. That's fear speaking, no? Fear of embarassment, awkwardness? Having the lower hand in the situation?

2. We all exist in ever-changing relationships. Time is fluid. Maybe the watch can be a symbol of this, you can see positively some day. At one time, you and your W loved each other very much. Your FIL meant that you were accepted and loved because you made his daughter happy. (I'm sure one to talk, but I am trying to grasp these things in my own sitch) - part of detaching and accepting is being thankful for all that was and peace with it, I believe. The astrophysics are lost on me past a certain point, but if that point in space and time is still there, and just unreachable now - it doesn't change that it was there. It was valid. You were loved. That watch was a symbol, as you say. It's ok.

3. On a less abstract note, I'd personally be offended if any of my exes' or my friends' ex bf gave me back a gift. It screams, HERE, TAKE IT BACK, IT NEVER HAPPENED, I'M BITTER! And it is sure to get back to your W, and she is unlikely to look at it as noble, but a dig.

I'm offering a little suggestion that you put it somewhere safe and revisit in a year or so. If at that point you know you never can look at it with love, perhaps approach your FIL gently and ask if he would like his gift back, thank him profusely and do this when things have cooled and it won't be seen as bitter...


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Couldn't have said it any better, Zelda.

I think it's best to let cooler heads prevail. If this is something you want to revisit after time has passed then so be it but I don't think the intention will look as nicely as you perceive it will.

Mozza- I have to say I enjoy reading your threads and responses to others. You look inside and really are here to grow. It's nice to read and see you are aware that there are changes that can be made for yourself. It's helpful to others.

Last edited by T0324; 04/01/15 06:38 PM.

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Mozza - sorry I haven't chimed in. Dealing with my own stuff at the moment. You've got some good advice here re watch. I suggest you take it on board.

I also wanted to say that I've also become a bit of a Mozza fan and that wasn't true always. You've turned me! Your progress is truely evident on these forums.


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Mozza, I'll be back in a bit to talk about my tone, but in the meantime, Zelda said it well.

MCS, I took my kids camping last summer and we managed the canoe just fine with just me. Get that bad boy down and get paddling!!!


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Originally Posted By: Maybell


MCS, I took my kids camping last summer and we managed the canoe just fine with just me. Get that bad boy down and get paddling!!!


Awesome. Need to figure out a cart to get it from the truck to the launch and we should be good. Summer is just a few months away.


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OK, I'm convinced: I'm keeping the watch for now! My IC thinks the same. When I said that people on this board believe I should keep it, he just said "Of course". You're right that it could be taken the wrong way by my FIL. Also, as my IC said, it doesn't have to be a symbol of failure, but that of another time in my life. Much what Zelda09 said too.

Thanks a lot to all of you. It's amazing the number of times I came here with something obvious to me, only to realize it isn't so obvious to others. This might be one of the most important lessons from this board and my sitch. As you can guess, my W was often faced with a H absolutely convinced that his point of view was non-debatable. Getting better all the time...
_______________________________

I was thinking of how WW wants to have the thrill of passion and she got it with OM. But at first, we hide our true selves to show enthusiasm and patience for everything our new partner wants and does. This is fake. We're not THAT thrilled by their accordion, their potato soup or their designer dress with tiger prints. We're just so happy to be with that person that we do everything to keep things running smoothly. Our feelings for these quirks are not really deep.

People who are addicted to this kind of passion are addicted to something that is fake. It's not just that it doesn't last: it's that it never existed in the first place. Soon they'll realize that they don't really like every quirk of the other person. In fact, they never did. And the feeling's mutual.

I don't even know if that's deep or cliché, but it came to me in a flash today.

(I hope everyone notices how I'm totally ruining the thrill of my next relationship with these thoughts. smile )
_______________

Zelda09 | Your post was very helpful. Many many thanks for stopping by.

T0324 | Such kind words. Thanks a lot. You had me welling up a bit (in a café!). Like many on these boards, I was told by WW that people don't change and that's why she had to go. So I'm very sensitive to the thought that I can change for the best.

ganb8te | You also had me in tears (while waiting for D7 at her school!) for the same reason. I try not to think about it, but it makes me realize that deep down, I do want to convince someone that people can change: myself.


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I agree with the comments about the watch and it looks like you made your decision, for now.

Also, do you still communicate with FIL? I guess it all depends on how close you were with in laws, but the watch looks like they accepted you into the family. W decides who's in her family, not who's in your family(other than her). If in laws decided to remove you from that position then that's their decision, but don't assume since W did they did also. W controls W, mozza controls mozza, FIL controls FIL.


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So, dating.

First, I am very grateful to everyone who chimed in. Everyone was thoughtful and respectful, on a topic seems to be polarizing. I think it benefited anyone who came to have a look and think about their own situation. I reread the entire discussion. I want to give a special mention to PatientMan who really took the time to share his views and to challenge me. By the way, amusing factoid: While a majority here has been against dating, it's been unanimous in real life that I'm free to do as I please, including from my parents married for 46 years. Some even expressed confusion as to why I was even asking, given the situation.

My position is that I'm free to date.

I've thought long and hard about the arguments. I've already stated before what I think about the main ones, but here's a quick recap. I understand that for each of these arguments, some of you disagree.

My M contract was between me and my W. She has ended it unilaterally and unequivocally. She has left me, found someone else, moved in with him, act like a couple and reconstituted family, and repeatedly told me we're done. I don't care what the local law says, and I'm not religious. I'm no longer morally bound by the M contract. In short: I'm single. I see moving on as the healthy thing to do after facing such clear rejection.

My W has no ground to be offended at my dating. She's even told me in several ways that I'm free to meet other people. For that reason, I can't see how me dating casually could upset her, beyond the uneasy feeling anyone gets knowing that an ex is dating, marrying or remarrying.

It is specific to my sitch. I wouldn't advise this to people with a WAW, or with a recent sitch, or with some positive signals, etc. In fact, I've gone around and argued against dating for certain newcomers. My sitch is pretty extreme by several standards.

I don't do it to get a reaction from her. I'd prefer that she doesn't know, just like I don't tell her anything about my life, but if she ends up knowing, there's nothing to hide. I'm not ready to go on dating sites.

I intend to be clear that I'm not marriage material right now. This will obviously be delicate to thread, but I've no intention of leading on anyone. Going on a date or even sleeping with someone does not mean that you want to marry them.

I'm willing to take the risk to meet someone serious. This is probably one for the biggest risks in my view, putting me in a situation where I don't want to reconcile. While I still feel like I'd give a chance to WW, I also realize now that we have serious issues as a couple and that maybe we got together for the wrong reasons.

I'm really excited about it. I don't think anything has been as good for my PMA (except time). Again, nothing has happened yet, but realizing that it is possible already does wonders. My IC encourages me to think of what I really want to do with my life, what I love, what I want. Dating is one such thing.

This is a growth opportunity. I've observed myself a lot in situations of flirting and learnt things beyond this topic. Every day, I push myself to talk to strangers and I get such a sense of accomplishment, even when I'm rejected. I'm doing something difficult for me and growing through it.

I need it to R. This is even more controversial. I can't see myself waiting in chastity while my W is having a sex festival with her new BF. I'd feel too much resentment taking her back in the marital bed like this. If I feel that this has been a time of exploration for both of us, then it might be less painful, less difficult to get back together.

There are also arguments against my dating. The main one is about the consequences. I touched upon them above, but I believe that I can't really know all that will happen once the deed is done. Maybe it will get me in trouble with some women, maybe even with WW more than I anticipate, maybe I'll feel really bad and it will pile up on top of the S, etc. Those are risks that I'm willing to take.

Another reason that makes me doubt my choice is that I can't get my head fully around the arguments against it. When I read the posts, it seems like they don't get something, but it might be me that doesn't get it. I recognize that certain things that are obvious to me are not to others (recently: the watch) and I've been proven wrong in the past. I also watched some newcomers stray from the advice of vets and come to regret it. I often repeat that I'm a DB soldier and that I will follow whatever practical advice. To me, this is different. By the way, if someone could point me to the page of DR about dating, I'd be interested because I couldn't find it tonight.
____________________________

This week-end, it came close to happen. I mentioned going bowling to a political fundraiser and meeting a girl with whom I went for drinks. What I didn't say at the time, because I was waiting for this post, is that I invited her to my place afterwards. She declined. But it was a victory for me. I'm not ashamed of her rejection and have told the story to several people already, with pride ("I invited her!"). This is not about boosting my ego through the approval of others. The whole point is for me to redefine my perception of women and relationships. It's been at the center of my M and sitch. It explains in part why I forgave my W instantly when she had her first affair, because I'm so afraid I'll never find anyone as good. It also explains in part why I'm in such pain today.

I'm not 100% sure that I'm making the right decision, but I'm comfortable with it and the risks and promises it entails. Life is live.

Again, thanks everyone!


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Re: dating

My .02 is that if you want to date, get divorced first.

My personal observation is that if you dont you are really no better than your spouse.
And that you need to heal yourself before starting a new relationship.
Most re-bound relationships FAIL.


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I'm going to come out in favour of your position, Mozza, and I think I need to head in a similar direction.

I used to be opposed - mostly since it would mess with my head in the event H did want to R. But I had an interesting convo with him the other night. Since I'd alread cracked open the "don't go there" chest I asked if he was dating anyone. He said "he's been on a few dates." Naturally he then asked me and then exclaimed "...surely you have, it's been 10 months already?!" So it made me wonder - is there a danger when we don't date after such a long time (and in your case - with WW living with OM) that we convey we are a loser or otherwise unfit to be with someone?


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Hey Mozza,

You're very welcome to my comments and I'm glad you've made what I also feel is the right decision about the watch.

I don't have any advice regarding dating for you I'm afraid, in fact if you could stop by my thread at some point, you'll see that I'm going through a similar conundrum at the moment. I personally agree with all of your points above as to why you feel you're free to date. As you know, our sitch's have a big difference in the OM arena, but in your case I think you have more reason to go for it.

Obviously dating may have a negative impact on the chances of R with our WW's, but we must remember that we're predominantly saving ourselves first by DBing.

Do what you feel is right for Mozza. smile


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Originally Posted By: Barry
Obviously dating may have a negative impact on the chances of R with our WW's, but we must remember that we're predominantly saving ourselves first by DBing.

Here is the thing, does dating save us?
If we are not whole and healed?

Again I am not against dating, however
it is not going to SAVE us but just continue the cycle that we have already entered.

I repeat - if you want to date, end your marriage.
Grieve it, fix ourselves, become who we are suppose to be.
Then start a new life with a new relationship.


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Hey Cadet,

I didn't mean it that way as such. It's DBing that saves us, not dating per se. Since I've been posting here and since my sitch started, I'm a firm believer that whatever helps ME...helps. I think if Mozza is being open and honest, not only with his date(s) but with himself as to how he feels about it, and he finds that it helps HIM, then why not.

All of his points as to why he feels he's ready to do so seem valid to me, but obviously I'm no expert on any of this.
As far as "If you don't divorce first then you're no better than your spouse" - I dissagree with that.

Mozza's WW was not only legally but emotionally in a married relationship but felt the need to look elsewhere for whatever reasons she felt justified it to her. I'm not suggesting that it need be a "tit for tat" situation at all. Mozza is currently married to WW in a legal sense only, she's checked out of the M...in with the OM, and D seems likely at this stage (sorry Mozza).

As he said, why should he take a vow of celibacy (or even a vow against dating) whilst she is having a sex fest? The vows they both said to each other became null and void in a very real sense when she started an affair.

I don't mean that your comments are wrong or anything, just that they maybe only apply in a eutopian world. If dating people was only ever reserved for singles, I'm sure sales of DB/DR would go down considerably, and this forum wouldn't have so many members.

Just my $.02 worth.

Barry


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I agree with, Cadet. If you're ready for another R, get out of the one you're in and maybe be by yourself to heal and rebuild for awhile.

Rebound R are called that for a reason. We try to use others to make us feel better instead of taking responsibility for ourselves.

Not unlike what a spouse in an affair does.

If you need another person to make you feel OK, you're not done yet.

If you do decide to date be honest with the person you date from the outset, I'm married, I still want to be married to my W, I still love my W. Don't be a user.


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Hi mozza,

You may already suspect this but I agree with you on the dating front. My view is slightly different and nuanced but fundamentally I agree.

There is a big but though and this is where I agree with cadet and I kind of eluded to it previously. If you are not ready to be divorced, to sign the papers (legal technicalities aside), and to truly accept that you may not reconcile with your wife then you are on shaky ground with wanting to date.

Ideally you should get divorced first

But note for me, even this isn't the sane as closing the door completely.

Having said all that I think its really good that you are prepared to discuss and try and analyse your thoughts on this stuff.


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Mozza,

This alone should raise red flags in you. Your motivations are not sincere, but more of wanting to get what you need because you're looking in the direction of someone else (W) and being jealous and resentful of her choices. It is not coming from a place of wholeness and healthy state of mind.

Originally Posted By: Mozza
I need it to R. This is even more controversial. I can't see myself waiting in chastity while my W is having a sex festival with her new BF. I'd feel too much resentment taking her back in the marital bed like this.


Believe me, I was at that place several years ago in the early 2 years of Ms. Wonka leaving me. I knew that I was not in a place to readily date other women because I was not in a healthy state of mind nor emotionally mature to date again.

Over time, I had arrived at a place where I wanted to date because I had something to offer instead of being in competition with someone or other people. The best part? I had no messy connections with an ex.

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Hey Mozza,

I get what you mean. I am also excited about thinking about dating again (but nowhere near ready).

I have some thoughts about the whole/healed thing Cadet brings up. Yes - no point in replaying the R you just got out of until you're in a better place to not make the same mistakes. You know what your changes are. It is hard to be in a functional happy relationship if you're not happy and healthy yourself. Maybe you feel you are mostly there, and if so, congrats.

Just look carefully. I sense that you process very much through your head, as I do. Some people are good at letting their gut and it's myriad feelings roll around and processing feelings without having to make sense of them - that's not you, is it? I think maybe you know the 'right' healthy thoughts you wish for yourself, and you will rationalize or work backwards as much as you can to arrive there, all the while denying the feelings you are actually having, forcing them to conform to what you want to do or think should be done.

But, I also feel that our spouses had some blame to shoulder, too. And it is a validation of sorts to think of loving and being appreciated and loved by another person. Without reaching for perfection in ourselves first, just excellence and promise to keep developing to the best of our ability.

Like an affirmation of life goes on and STBX wasn't the only person that we can enjoy this short life with.

I don't believe in people being 'wrong' for each other or incompatible - some pairings are easier than others but after initial attraction, it always comes down to work to stay in love and communicate, doesn't it?

D before dating is the high road you can take. I think you'd be happier looking back, also. If you are sincerely looking for a new partner, it is much more confidence inspiring to know a man is legit D, and not just on his way...despite whatever his W did.

Offered with kindness.


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Mozza- I read your post last night and thought "Mozza is going to have a busy thread tomorrow" grin Before I inflict my opinion on you, I should say I don't think I've ever caught your country of origin, but you've stated multiple times that English is not your first language, so I've always assumed you are not American by birth. And I only mention that, because sometimes a situation comes up in your thread that makes me think there are cultural mores at play. So in the interest of full disclosure, I am American and am a product of its Puritan heritage, and have absorbed a lot of those values and attitudes about sex and marriage (and was also a history major - so I have thought a lot about this stuff)- which is going to color my opinion about a lot of things.

So let's take a look at your arguments..

Originally Posted By: Mozza

My M contract was between me and my W. She has ended it unilaterally and unequivocally.


I do not share your view about marriage being essentially a contract that is now broken - but I get that you see it differently and can agree that it is a perfectly valid way to look at it. So, that being said, remind me why you haven't taken steps to formally and legally dissolve this now meaningless contract?

Originally Posted By: Mozza

My W has no ground to be offended at my dating. I don't do it to get a reaction from her. I'd prefer that she doesn't know, just like I don't tell her anything about my life, but if she ends up knowing, there's nothing to hide.


Well- I get what you are saying here, I do. And this may come back to having a different view of marriage, but personally I do think that ethically as long as you are legally married, you should actually inform her that those are your intentions ahead of time. And I realize she did not extend that courtesy to you- but I'm sure you want to be above that behavior, no?

Originally Posted By: Mozza

I intend to be clear that I'm not marriage material right now.

and
Originally Posted By: Mozza

I'm willing to take the risk to meet someone serious.


Don't you think those two statements contradict each other a little bit?

Now I'm going to bore you with some personal backstory because I have sort of been on both sides of this particular coin. When I was in my 20s, I lived with a boyfriend for about a year and then broke it off with him (for excellent reasons). I promptly got into a rebound relationship and then the X-BF came back begging that he had changed. I am ashamed to admit that for the better part of a year, I was hopelessly torn between them. A lot of people told me how lucky I was to have two hot guys chasing after me. It. was. awful. It always makes me a little mad now to see the romanticized version of love triangles on TV, because they are in fact, miserable. Take my word for it. You may think you would never end up in that position - but as long as you have feelings for your wife but are potentially willing to have feelings for someone else, you are playing with fire.

A few years later, I dated a nice guy who had been divorced for about 2 years. He seemed normal, nice, and by his account, completely available. Things went well for about 2 months, feelings were growing, and then one night, he broke down and sobbed about how much he still cared for his ex-wife. I know you are saying you would be upfront about things, Mozza, but you can't control how emotions will grow, and let me tell you, this is a lousy thing to do to another human being. It felt......icky. So, if you go down this path, be very careful, ok?

And the final three....

Originally Posted By: Mozza

I'm really excited about it.
This is a growth opportunity.
I need it to R.



I agree with what Labug responded.

Originally Posted By: labug

Rebound R are called that for a reason. We try to use others to make us feel better instead of taking responsibility for ourselves.

Not unlike what a spouse in an affair does.

If you need another person to make you feel OK, you're not done yet.

If you do decide to date be honest with the person you date from the outset, I'm married, I still want to be married to my W, I still love my W. Don't be a user.


And I would add- if you are upfront with someone about these things - what sort of person do you think you will attract?

Mozza - do what you will, as you say, your sitch is specific to you. I wish you good luck if you do decide to date right now (I'm afraid you will need it). whistle

Regards,

Raliced

Last edited by raliced; 04/02/15 02:49 PM.

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Interesting conversation going on your thread, Mozza.

Originally Posted By: Mozza

I need it to R. This is even more controversial. I can't see myself waiting in chastity while my W is having a sex festival with her new BF. I'd feel too much resentment taking her back in the marital bed like this. If I feel that this has been a time of exploration for both of us, then it might be less painful, less difficult to get back together.


This one is the hardest for me to understand. What is your reasoning for not pursuing a D first? I don't actually think this is your intent, but your justification comes off as score keeping to me. Essentially: if she's out sowing her oats, why shouldn't I do that too? Then if she comes back we are even.

If you are truly ready to move on and date, you should. Just make sure it's for the right reasons. If it's just a distraction while you wait for W to wake up, there could be unnecessary collateral damage or drama along the way. I say that because even though you're up front about not wanting something serious, your potential partner might hear that but not think its true.


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Thanks all. A quick note, before I come back later with a full response.

There's one argument that several people bring up and that I didn't quite address: I'm not ready, I need to heal, I need to be whole again, etc. before dating otherwise I will hurt myself or someone, it won't work, etc. I understand why it makes intuitive sense, but research does not support this. I can't link to it right now, but search for an article called "11 lies we need to stop telling about breakups" for the source.

Lie #3: Rebound relationships and sex don't work
Actually, they do. In many cases, experts recommend using rebounds — short flings or even longer-term relationships — as a healthy way to assess yourself and what you're looking for in a new partner. A 2006 study from Princeton University found that people who enter new relationships immediately after a divorce don't have a higher future divorce rate than those who took their time getting back in the saddle.


I do have an example of this in my life. My friend separated from his wife of seven years - they have two kids - and two months later entered into a new R. They are still together eight years later and their R is so strong and healthy that I believe they played a part in setting high expectations for my W. We met them 10 days before BD and my W asked the woman many questions about how they deal with disagreement, which is much better than us. They are the godparents of D3; that's how much I respect them and bet on the stability of their R.


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Mozza,

I always read your posts and while I may not always agree, you are extremely thorough and pensive in your postings. I'm feeling rather reflective today so I'll give my 2 cents which may really only be worth a Chuckie Cheese token:-)

I tend to side with Cadet, Bug, and Raliced (loved your post). I don't consider myself partcularly conservative or religious. However, whenever I see the term "dating and married"....well, I laugh. Can't help it. Those 2 seem diametrically opposed to me. Theoretically I understand what the pro daters are saying. I read many threads where 2 months after BD, posters are "excited" about dating or " ready" to meet someone. Far be it from me to be the moral barometer ( I have my own issues), however, if you are truly "ready" to date and meet someone, then finish your biz to make yourself "actually" available. Because to this chickadee, a married person (even if it's just legally) is far from truly available.

IMHO, we live in a culture where we make things morally *work for us* in our respective scenarios. Again, it's not my place to judge. However, as a parent, I cannot look my sons or daughters in the eyes and say, "Your Dad broke our vows with another woman, so I'll date while married too." Not for a reaction, because I doubt he would have cared, BUT I did care. No offense to anyone, but some folks can't be alone. Why? Myriad of reasons. I'm not desperate (not saying anyone is here) although I can completely relate to wanting to be wanted and desired. However, at this juncture, I don't have the capacity to reciprocate on a deep level. I had friends saying, "you need to get out there and meet someone good!" And that's fine. I just felt compelled to finish my biz if I was pursuing that path. Why? What kind of example would I be setting for my sons? My daughter? Trying to get in another R while still legally in a R? Again, to each his own and this is simply my perspective.

Sadly, I'm not *excited* about dating although I'm excited about life. I realize we all heal differently, and I can honestly say I have nothing in the tank for a R. However, things have a way of turning around in life. I'm sure I will feel more *ready* at some point.

Wishing you the best in whatever you decide :-)

Last edited by Georgiabelle; 04/02/15 03:36 PM.


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Mozza,

I would bet that there are 30 other articles debating against dating while still married. No where in that blurb you just posted discusses dating while still legally married. And if you would see the last line: "after a divorce"....that is the key right there.

The main thing is to be true to yourself and be the man you are proud of when handling life's challenges. I think it is important for a person who's DBing to get their own house in order FIRST before dating because it takes a long time to get to a healthy place.


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Originally Posted By: Mozza
Thanks all. A quick note, before I come back later with a full response.

There's one argument that several people bring up and that I didn't quite address: I'm not ready, I need to heal, I need to be whole again, etc. before dating otherwise I will hurt myself or someone, it won't work, etc. I understand why it makes intuitive sense, but research does not support this. I can't link to it right now, but search for an article called "11 lies we need to stop telling about breakups" for the source.

Lie #3: Rebound relationships and sex don't work
Actually, they do. In many cases, experts recommend using rebounds — short flings or even longer-term relationships — as a healthy way to assess yourself and what you're looking for in a new partner. A 2006 study from Princeton University found that people who enter new relationships immediately after a divorce don't have a higher future divorce rate than those who took their time getting back in the saddle.


I do have an example of this in my life. My friend separated from his wife of seven years - they have two kids - and two months later entered into a new R. They are still together eight years later and their R is so strong and healthy that I believe they played a part in setting high expectations for my W. We met them 10 days before BD and my W asked the woman many questions about how they deal with disagreement, which is much better than us. They are the godparents of D3; that's how much I respect them and bet on the stability of their R.


LOL! I have to give you full props, Mozza. I do enjoy how your brain works. I see a few others have weighed in already - but I can't resist throwing in a few of my own counter points here.

1. I could write an internet article right now entitled "20 reasons you should wait to date after a breakup" and be factually correct by saying "Many experts agree that its important to give yourself time to reflect on the old relationship before moving into another."

2. Regarding that 2006 Princeton study - I can't take the time to look it up right now - but it appears to measure only one thing - the divorce rate of people who dated immediately after divorce versus those who waited. First off, as others have pointed out, no matter how you parse it - you aren't divorced yet. And then - I look at the results of this study and derive a completely different theory from it. I would think that some of the "rapid daters" did some work on themselves during the divorce process. Likewise, there are many people who remain single long after divorce and never look inwards at all.

I'm glad your friends have such a healthy marriage. I'm a believer that many of these "rules" aren't etched in stone. We've all read the one about affair partners not working out - but I know some in real life that have done just fine. Possibly, likewise with your friends and their rapid rebound.

Oh - and one last thing that is specific to your sitch. Sorry - but when I read your posts - I get a sense that you are still pretty emotionally tangled up with your wife. Maybe I'm wrong about that - you would certainly be the expert.

Over to you, Mozza smile

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Originally Posted By: raliced
Oh - and one last thing that is specific to your sitch. Sorry - but when I read your posts - I get a sense that you are still pretty emotionally tangled up with your wife.

x2



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Mozza,

Why do you feel the need to justify every action you take? I notice that in a lot of your posts. I'm doing this, but it's because my WAW has done that.

Me personally, if you have to defend your actions so much.....perhaps you aren't ready to take them.....yet.

Just my thoughts.


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Thanks again to those who took the time to contribute to the dating discussion. I'm not going to respond individually, even though I feel a little bad about it given the time everyone took to share, but I don't want this topic to monopolize my thread much longer and I haven't read much today to which I haven't responded in my summary and in other posts. Perhaps we should start a generic thread on the topic? Still, I'm very grateful to everyone who took the time to react and share their perspective.

I'm reflecting on where our different perspectives come from. Raliced brought up the deep currents that shape our thoughts. I'm not American, but I lived there for a few years. As she wrote, there is a well-known puritanical streak in the US (even liberal regions) that is not so present where I live. An example that will surprise Americans: where I live, a majority of children are born out of wedlock because couples start families without marrying (I myself got married 2 years after my first child; D7's godparents have 3 kids and aren't married; D3's godparents aren't married either). I think these cultural differences explain in part why things appear so clear to people on both sides of this discussion. Notice the reactions of the non-Americans on it.

On this topic, I understand that in psychoanalysis, pleasure is matched in the mind with interdicts and that sex is the ultimate pleasure that is matched with the ultimate interdicts. We create all sorts of reasons/rules/principles why it shouldn't happen, to us or others: people who have several partners are lower quality, swingers are asking for trouble, seeking sex for pleasure is a sign of weakness, etc. It's often subconscious because we block our desires from even reaching our conscious mind where they make us uncomfortable and confront us with certain fears/shame/guilt (we don't like that others have pleasures that we deny ourselves - this was present in my M where I would guilt my W from her pleasures). I'm not surprised that many people have a strong opinion on dating, that they share their own experience of restraint, and use the arguments of pride and principles to suggest I shouldn't date while separated (I prefer "while separated" because it implies M but no R while the expression "dating while married", while technically true though less precise, refers to couples who are still together, according to my research).

My IC's working hypothesis on me seems to be that, as a Nice Guy, I didn't express my needs, didn't ask for what I want, because of my fears and shame. I settled and, among other issues, ended up in bad Rs (my own unpleasantness was a way to express this unease). Several months after I separated, I would give all sorts of reasons/excuses not to date to avoid confronting my fear of rejection, my shame about myself that might be unmasked in my interactions with women. The problem is that these fears and shame have prevented me from entering healthy R so far. When I finally confront my fear of rejection and shame of my needs, I'll express my interest to several people (the world of abundance of NMMNG) until I find the compatible R/person that I want at a given time. This is not the end of the reflection, but where it stands at the moment.

By now it should be obvious that my mind is made up on this. I came to it after seven months of IC, reading five books on self-awareness and countless articles, discussing with friends, family and this board, and lots of thinking and experimenting. I realize that many people, whom I respect greatly, disagree with me and for some very good reasons. I hope you'll understand my position on this and will not hold it against me.

Our normal program is about to resume. Stay tuned!


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I think Mozza you should experiment and let us know. It is your life after all.

Just do us a favor, if you meet someone and are thinking of marriage after a couple months of dating come back to the forum for a second opinion.

Also, I read on the NMMNG forum that someone who dated while in a broken M, got the woman pregnant! Oh it's so bad.

If you are member of the NMMNG club, you know that you don't start dating until certain steps are tidied up.

Anyways, good luck Mozza.

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I'm still missing something, why not just get divorced?

Would you be willing to have and open M with your W?

When you and W had disagreements did you come at her with loads of research and bullet-points and summaries or did you communicate with her from your heart?

I think you're a a very good thinker and writer but it seems so clinical, so intellectualized. In fact, it reminds me of someone near and dear to me who has a very hard time moving from his head to his heart. I don't read your thread daily so this may be true of just the posts I've read.

My views on the M relationship have little to do with a puritanical bent, rather needing honesty with myself and, with and from those I'm in R with.

I hope you find what you're looking for.


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Labug,

Funny, for me I just had V post that my WW needs to move from thinking with her heart (OM) to her head, this is in reference to decisions with the kids. I just got a chuckle out of how opposite our WAS's are.

Mozza,

I see what you are saying and I also see that your sitch is very different. Your posts have made me think a lot. I realize that I really want some intimate interaction with someone. For some reason, I'm not to focused on companionship right now. However, my personal check point is that I want to get to a point that I don't feel compelled to explain my sitch, my WW, my 'conditions' such as nothing serious, etc. For me, I also think I'm going to be comparing or sensing 'triggers' that remind me about WW. I see that I'm emotionally attached still because all of this. Anyway like you said, if you've already made up your mind go for it. I think you understand the consequences. It's just one of those things that when it happens, there's no turning back.

Beyond this specific topic, it seems like Mozza is doing really good. Glad things seem to mp be moving in a more postpitive direction for you.


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Mozza, I don't think anyone here is going to "hold it against you" regardless of your decision. We all just want what's best for you. I won't comment on everything as there seem to be many opinions here AND you seem to be confident in your place.

I wonder myself what I would do if I had my "lightswitch" moment while we were still in an indefinite S w/ a known PA going on her part. My dating sitch was much less murky. The lightswitch flipped, I found out about PA, she said she was dating again, she said she definitely wanted a D, she actually filed, etc. At that point it was really up to when I was ready. I still don't think I'm ready for committed R, but I don't feel like I'm too far from it. For now, I've just had fun meeting people, flirting, and going on a few light dates.


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Here is what I have slowly understood over the last few months:

I can do what brings me joy.

If I do so, I will be happy and feel frustration for no one who does not return my favors. It's the end of the covert contract. Everything is an end of itself, not a deal with the world. I'm so frustrated that my WW left me saying "thank you" for the years of support I gave her. I guess I was hoping for something in return (loyalty?) and now I've nothing but heartbreak to show for it. Sure, there are limits to doing what brings me joy, and sometimes there is delayed gratification. I wouldn't eat a box of chocolate at every meal for instance. I wouldn't cheat on my W with the hot intern. I'll still take out the trash and recycling.

So, then, how does it look in real life?

PAST | About three years ago, I learnt to cook (or started to). I created a weekly schedule so that I would practice the same recipe every week and learn, improve them. The Monday meal was a sirloin steak with blue cheese because I love it. Guess what: I was looking forward to this meal and finally learnt to cook, at 36. I was doing what brings me joy and it added to it because now I enjoy cooking (not on susana4's level though!).

PRESENT | Tonight, I put the strobe light in the living room, my earphones on and I danced my heart out for some 20 minutes. I love dancing. I've music that I want to listen to. Nobody's watching, I don't dance so that someone's impressed or attracted, I just dance because I love it. I'm all sweaty and elated. That's what I'm talking about.

FUTURE | I'm thinking of buying a motorcycle. I've been driving off-road ATVs since the age of three, but haven't since I left my parents' home. I've had the dream of a motorcycle for 20 years. Twice, I've made plans to buy one, but didn't go through. Now might just be the time. I don't even own a car, so it would be nice to have this bit of transportation freedom when I don't have the kids. I miss this feeling of freedom on two wheels.

I've written three posts on stacey9's thread if anyone is interested in how I think this applies to other people's sitches. Note that stacey9's BD was 19 months ago. If you're a couple of months into your sitch, it's most likely too early, but around six to twelve months, it might be a good idea to start thinking about what really brings you joy.
_________________________

I'm becoming one of those posters that I didn't like too much when I arrived here. I'm accepting my S and moving on with my life. As for WW and M, que sera, sera. At the time, it looked like the "giving up" option I wanted nothing of. The only future I was willing to consider was R. But that's just how things are supposed to evolve if I don't want to hang on to WW 10 years from now, parking in her driveway to cry (who told that story here?).

Some might wonder if that means I'm giving up on M. No, it doesn't. It means that I stop even wondering if I want to R. It's a moot point: WW is not asking me to come back. There are so many ways it could happen, some for which I'd say yes, some I'd say no. So all I'm saying is: maybe. And I stop torturing myself with hypothetical scenarios.
__________________________

I'd really like to engage more on your thoughtful responses regarding dating but one thing I've learned through my sitch is to let go and not try to settle every argument. I'm glad we've had this polarizing discussion so respectfully and that you've all helped me so much to work through my decision.

Labug | There is a one-year delay here so D is only possible in October 2015. I also hope I'll find what I'm looking for and thank you for your kind words.

MCS | You're right, I'm getting better. I'd say that the 6-month mark was the beginning of the turning point where the positive outweighed the negative. I'm not out of the woods though. Friday, I had a heart-to-heart with a cab driver (!) and he told me that 22 years after his D, he's still not over it (she had left). He remarried recently and has two more kids he adores (he sang me children rhymes he composed for them!). We learn to live with it, but it's always there in our life.

Card29 | I'm so glad to see you around here. I often think about your lightswitch moment. I fell like mine was more gradual, but I'm getting there. I've been thinking of your road trip in Florida and what a good idea it was. I would have loved to share the road with you for a day or two! I'm glad when I see people just going for what they enjoy in life. I'm a few weeks or months behind, but I feel like I'm in your footsteps in some ways.
____________________________

GAL Report | I went to Chicago this week-end! I've been meaning to for years, but WW was not interested. I went with a friend who loves architecture as much as I do and we had a blast. The weather was glorious. People on the beach wearing only bathing suits. Wow.

Detachment Report | I saw WW in person Friday when I dropped off the kids. It lasted 15 seconds, but I had a little cry when I got home afterwards. My PMA was sometimes down during the week-end and I suspect it might have to do with it. I'm meeting FIL Wednesday for lunch. I've no plans other than enjoying my meal and the conversation. Actually, I've one plan: I want to tell him I didn't want the S. I've no idea what WW tells everyone as she's been lying to much, so I want to get this one out there with him.

Dating Report | Nothing much, except that I've been forcing myself more to talk to interesting women. It feels like an accomplishment every time. I've finished reading Models, my book on attracting women through honesty, and I've every intention of writing a longer review because I think it's a good complement to DR, NMMNG and what some vets explain here about attraction.


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Hi Mozza,
Originally Posted By: Mozza
I'm becoming one of those posters that I didn't like too much when I arrived here. I'm accepting my S and moving on with my life. As for WW and M, que sera, sera. At the time, it looked like the "giving up" option I wanted nothing of. The only future I was willing to consider was R. But that's just how things are supposed to evolve if I don't want to hang on to WW 10 years from now, parking in her driveway to cry (who told that story here?).

Some might wonder if that means I'm giving up on M. No, it doesn't. It means that I stop even wondering if I want to R. It's a moot point: WW is not asking me to come back. There are so many ways it could happen, some for which I'd say yes, some I'd say no. So all I'm saying is: maybe. And I stop torturing myself with hypothetical scenarios.
This is EXACTLY where I am now too and I couldn't have written it better myself.

Take care, Barry.


Me 40 W 38
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S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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Originally Posted By: Mozza
I can do what brings me joy.


I think I'm slowly coming around to this way of thinking too.
For the first time since the dinner with the W last week I felt better than okay yesterday.

Just by doing little things that I can do now without her around and thinking about things I can do down the road.


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
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Great post Mozza, thanks that you share your experiences here. It always was and still is very helpful. Wish you the best of luck!


Me 32 (German) Wife 28
T 3yrs M 2yrs
Moved to US for W
No kids
BD 6/2014
In house separation
Confirmed EA 1/2015
(ongoing since BD)
OM not ready
Real D talk started 1/27/15


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Hey Mozza....I see you have been keeping busy on the boards. For me to start dating came when I accepted that my marriage was over. My ex too had moved on and it took me a long time to get to the point were I was ready to put myself out there for anyone. It's been almost three years not since we've been split up, the first year was a year of rebuilding my life and grieving, the second year I still held on to some hope but was starting to heal. Now I wonder if I could ever have taken him back. From a distant perspective I see so much more now. He's really not someone I want to spend my life with. I deserve so much more.

You will know when you are ready to call it and move on. Life has a plan for you. I don't see it with you being alone forever. At some point you will meet someone and it will all click. Good luck and keep growing and learning.


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





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What a day!

6:30 | Got up early to get to a medical clinic and sort out some things that I've been meaning to do for years.

9:30 | Ran into WW and FIL in the street. She looked so stunned that I asked her if she had seen a ghost. I was acting normal, smiling, and it lasted 20 seconds. I was the one leaving.

10:00 | I joined a gym, a first in 12 years.

11:30 | Lunch with FIL. See below.

13:00 | IC meeting. We talked about how I tend to interpret many things that happen to me as rejection. He doesn't even see S as a clear cut case of rejection, although there's some in it. That's yet another example of how my IC reframes things.

16:00 | I had my first session at the gym, along with a training program developed for me.

18:00 | Went to an open mic and ended up playing guitar and singing three songs. This is huge for me! I've been meaning to do it for years. It was the "secret GAL" activity that I mentioned here a few days ago. The place was empty and I played for an audience of 7, staff included. I've done it!

20:00 | Badminton. By a stroke of luck and a bit of efforts on my part, I ended up playing with the prettiest woman (celebrity lookalike: Gwyneth Palthrow) and had a good time.

22:00 | Made plans for a summer vacation with a friend. Booked GAL for tomorrow.

23:30 | Went out dancing, but ended up at an Irish pub. There was karaoke and, because I GAL and do everything I fear, I put my name on the list and did my party trick of singing We didn't start the fire by heart in front of a crowd of complete strangers. Also, after an hour of hesitation, I walked up to the prettiest woman of the place (celebrity lookalike: Elisha Cuthbert) and we ended up singing Amy Winehouse and Celine Dion together.

2:30 | 20 hours after waking up, I crashed in my bed (alone, rest assured!).

Vanilla, how many GAL points is that?

_________________________________

Detachment report | Lunch with FIL. I didn't expect to talk much about the S, but he brought it up from the start and it was our topic for some 80% of the meal. He seems sorry that this happened, told me that he and his wife had accepted me in his family and as the choice of WW to be happy (there was a small dig in there that I wouldn't have been their choice though). They were also taken by surprise. He implied all along that this was definitive and that we should all just get on with life -- again, this is the normal thing to say and it doesn't really influence my thinking about the sitch. If he had a message, it was that my parents should reach out more to WW, that they shouldn't be angry at her. I told him that my parents were not angry at her (or they don't tell me), but they may be uncomfortable and sad. The conclusion was that time would settle things. On my end, I told him that S was WW's decision, that it also took me by surprise, that it was sudden, that she told me she wanted to be alone, so didn't even quite know why she had left me. On the way out, he came along with me for the walk, quite passed WW's apartment. It seems like this lunch was important to him and that he wanted us to have a cordial relationship. All in all, it seems good.


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Whoa there! Unless my time difference calculations are off, you did that all on a Wednesday?! I think V needs to work in a bonus for weekday GAL. Maybe a weight of 1.2 per GAL point delivered during a weekday? V, what do you think?

Glad to hear the meet up with FIL went ok, Mozza. I trust you can still tell the time?


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Nice work Mozza- I'm exhausted just reading about your day!

Wanted to add this to your thread since I've seen you bring up the Models book on several threads. I won't post the link, but I found an article ('My Girlfriend Just Dumped Me') on Mark Manson's website that speaks perfectly on how to act/react. It's definitely worth a read to all newbies.



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That was a good read Tarheel!


Me:33 W:34
T:13 M:8.5
D mentioned & S 2/13/15
"We can never get back together" 4/2/15
Visited & Mentioned she hasn't filed 4/20/15
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Thanks Tarheel, I thought it was good too. Only takes 10 minutes if anyone's interested. And it's very much in line with DB principles.


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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Holy moly Mozza. Thats a crap ton of GAL, I think you've done enough for the week there in 1 day! Thats awesome though, keep it up. Where you going for summer vacation?

Just a random question, but how did lunch with FIL happen? Seems...a little odd, not bad, but strange that you and FIL would be having lunch while you and W are separated. Idk. Just wondering.


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M: 2.5yrs
T: 5yrs
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Hello Mozza,

You are amazing! You seem to have so much knowledge about this process.

Thank you for posting all the success stories, I find it very helpful to have it all organized in one place.

Thank you very much.

Bob


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
M:14 yrs
T:15 yrs
No children together--3 each from previous marriages
Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14
Divorce Final: 10/21/15
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Barry | Excellent. There's no point in spending energy on finding an answer to a question nobody asked. As I wrote to MCS, either way, it wouldn't even change how I act.

Complex | Thank you! Glad if I can inspire.

Karma12 | I'm very happy to see you've come back. I went looking for you recently. Continue to keep us updated. And yes, I've thought long and hard, as chronicled here, about dating. We'll see where it takes me.

Tarheel | Thanks for the reference. I never got to read his website before. I liked that article: it's a good pep talk for newcomers, in line with DB. I also liked the article "Fcuk Yes or No". I find that it can be good for newcomers a few months after BD, after the initial shock. I've recommended it to TLEE86 today for instance. I know this concept of not settling for someone who doesn't love me fully is on my mind these days.

gan | I forgot to mention: I kept the watch, I was wearing it and I never even mentioned it. And yes, it was all on a Wednesday. I control my schedule so I used the momentum and put off work (and sleep) to the following day.

TLEE86 | FIL wrote me a nice message on my birthday, a month after BD, and then we've taken the opportunity of every birthday to exchange news, so the contact is existent and cordial. When I heard that he would be in town (from abroad), it seemed polite of me to extend an invitation. He accepted with pleasure, as far as I can tell.

Bob723 | You're too kind. My theory is that we all understand parts of DB better than others. For me, the process is indeed clear. On the other hand, I'm not so good with detachment and I've had problems with boundaries. I'm lucky that other LBS and vets have come to my help in the past. I'm very happy to know that the success stories are useful to you.
_________________________________

GAL Update | I'll share in this section the new things I do that give me joy. It's a thrilling process of self-discovery. Today, I've accepted that I love Shake It Off by Taylor Swift and added it to my playlists. I've even decided to explore Rihanna, Beyonce and the likes. This was WW's territory and I was a snob about it. I was already concerned I was painting myself in a corner though and that I wouldn't be able to openly enjoy the music that my daughters will bring in the house in very few years. So, no Carly Jepsen yet, but I'm getting there.


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Oh. You are at the "I was a music snob" phase. I think that might be an offical step in grieving.

Have you hit the "prosciutto and melon totally counts as a good mid-week meal if served with champagne" phase yet? That's a good one.


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Married 5 years
No kids
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Gan, you make grief sound so fun. smile


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
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Mozza the rock star! Very impressed, great to hear you're doing so well.


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Mozza,

Yes, the success stories are very helpful to me and give me hope.

Take care!

Bob


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
M:14 yrs
T:15 yrs
No children together--3 each from previous marriages
Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14
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I'm not telling you much about WW these days. The main reason is that she's not really my focus, but it's not that I don't think about her. In fact, through all that GAL, through all my waking hours, there is still this sense of loss, this sadness that's inside of me. Even when I laugh and sing, it feels like I do it against the current somewhat. I feel that something is missing, that I'm going through a very difficult time.

I try not to think about R, but I do, so I'll give you an update. I feel like I'd be better not to R. The two A plus the S are not surprising when I think about my W's character and habits. She values her happiness above all, she relies on external factors to be happy, she has a strong flight reflex, she sees children as work, she needs external validation and passion all the time, she reads romance novels and watches romcom by the truckload, she follows the chaotic love lives of celebrities. She's a fun person but pity the man who marries her and has kids with her. Well, I did. Now she left. Maybe I should just cut my losses. I think she's right that we're not all that compatible. When I think of the ideal partner, at this stage, I want someone who's maturity level and values are more in line with my own. There are too many basic things about life that needs to be negotiated between WW and I.

Where I come from, if a dog bit you seriously, he had a one-way ticket to the vet's office, even if you were so very sad to part with a beloved pet. This memory comes to mind when I think about WW: I love so many things about her, but given the way she left me, is this someone I want in my life? I can answer: not really.

For a minute there, I feel clarity and then I think: Wait, the kids! Shouldn't I give WW every chance to R, at least for their sake? Sigh... Back to square one...

I'm not sure why I'm telling you all this. Perhaps because I feel my latest updates might have given the impression that I'm healed and I've moved on. I progress well, it's true, but my WW is still very much on my mind. I also struggle with detachment and stinking thinking, like many of you.
_________________________

gan | Haha! Yes, there are fun parts to becoming a better man. Tonight, D3, D7 and I danced to Shake it off, of course, and I noticed that it's a LBS song, with a call for GAL and PMA:

Just think while you been getting down and out about the liars
And the dirty dirty cheats of the world
You could have been getting down to this sick beat

My ex man brought his new girlfriend
She's like oh my god
But I'm just gonna shake
And to the fella over there with the hella good hair
Won't you come on over baby we could shake, shake


Well ok, that last part if more for people ready to date!

stacey9 | Thank you stacey9! I think of you as I'm going through these steps. It's such a fun thing to spoil myself and push my limits. I hope you're also getting there. Update us!

Bob723 | Excellent! Note that there are also success stories about letting go. It's no accident: as the months go by and we mature in our view of the sitch and M, it's important to keep in mind that it's about saving ourselves first. You might be early to hear that, but keep it in mind.
________________________

GAL Report | I went to the gym for my first real session today. The goal is to beef up a little and not be so skinny. I even bought proteins to eat after the workout! This is all so foreign to me, but it gives me this feeling of truly, truly becoming a new person. It's one thing to think about it, it's another to act and create new habits. I've always said that it was hopeless for me to build a bit of muscle, but now I'm getting rid of these excuses and giving it a real go. It makes me proud to go out of my comfort zone like this to better myself.


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Hi mozza,

Thanks for the update on where your thinking is with regard to your W. Its good to know where that is in amongst your much increased GAL'g

One of the things that has run through my head (and its a reflection of the last few months) has been about trying to work out how much of my grief is about my XW and how much is about the loss of my dream and my routine. I've also found when I think about reconciliation a lot of my thoughts are about wanting it for the kids.

Some of your comments resonated with this for me, though I also suspect our brains do our own rewriting and reinterpretation as a coping mechanism to help us move on.

Nothing wrong with liking a bit of Taylor Swift....

Gan, I look forward to the melon phase, unless that's the summer equivalent of our 'I'm going to eat a lot of homemade soup' phase


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
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Hey Mozza, I missed you! As usual I can relate to your thoughts and feelings. It sounds like you are progressing well!

The reality is that you do have kids together and that you did choose her to be the mom of your kids, no matter what her shortcomings are. But at the same time, you can't control her or the future. So you just have to keep moving forward and see what happens. Shake it off baby!

You're awesome Mozza. I wish you lots of happiness and continued strength on your road. smile

Hugs, LisaB

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Hi Mozza,

Good for you getting out there and GAL!!! That helped me so much. I just kept pushing myself ( still do) to get out and keep busy. I have now involved myself more in my career, which means I advocate for my profession. I belong to different groups and boards. I still run, go to the gym and hit yoga. I spend time with friends and family. I'm starting to date. Now I am actually glad to have a night at home. Hahaha. I booked a trip to Mexico for July and will be traveling to the UK in Sept. Life is for the living. Do it while you are healthy. Keep taking baby steps into your future.

I'm hoping for another date this week. I will be back to update you. Lol

Cheers,

Karma


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





Accept what is...let go of what was and have faith in what will be.
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Mozza, Jim,


Here we are again, seems like we are all postulating about where we actually stand in our sitch and R. Same thoughts go through my mind about compatibility with WW, R the affect on kids, moving on, etc. It's overwhelming, but then I realize did any of us think we could get here when we first got in the boards? Wow, I see the 'new' threads pop up, get the sick feeling in my gut that I know how they feel with their first post and then almost feel good that somehow they found this place and I know they'll be in the best hands and come out okay. Then I see Mozza, giving the advice that him and I couldn't understand when we first got here and it makes me realize how much we've grown. Silver Lining? Maybe, I don't know.

For me I see it like this: It's on WW to change and have some way to initiate R if it's in the cards. Only God knows that outcome. The kids on the other hand are where I see my patience in waiting is coming from. I'm comfortable (enough?!?) where I am now to keep going for a while without the huge sweeping emotional distress I once had.

Okay, time for another Christian Rock song: While I'm Waiting by John Waller
(Sorry Mozza for the religous highjack of your thread, regardless lyrics seem appropriate to our sitches)

-------------
I'm waiting, I'm waiting on You Lord
And I am hopeful, I'm waiting on You Lord
Though it is painful, but patiently I will wait

And I will move ahead bold and confident
Taking every step in obedience

While I'm waiting I will serve You
While I'm waiting I will worship
While I'm waiting I will not faint
I'll be running the race even while I wait

I'm waiting, I'm waiting on You Lord
And I am peaceful, I'm waiting on You Lord
Though it's not easy no, but faithfully I will wait
Yes, I will wait


M:36 W:37
T: 15 M:11
S6 D5
BD: 8/10/14
IDLY: 8/12/14
S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids)
D Mentioned: 10/15/14
Confronted about OM: 10/15/14
EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13
She filed: 8/15 (not final)
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Originally Posted By: gan
Whoa there! Unless my time difference calculations are off, you did that all on a Wednesday?! I think V needs to work in a bonus for weekday GAL. Maybe a weight of 1.2 per GAL point delivered during a weekday? V, what do you think?

Glad to hear the meet up with FIL went ok, Mozza. I trust you can still tell the time?


Sounds fair to me but only if total exceeded is 15 points for the weekdays. laugh

Things are lightening up Mza, and you know V is a fan ever since the Goat Gal days.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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Kids report | D3 told me "I don't love mommy. I love daddy. Mommy shouts at me when I don't play well." The she said that she wanted to stay with me. I told her that, of course, she loves mommy too and that mommy loves her. I did not address the rest. D3 is (was?) mommy's girl. Their bond was very strong, with little space for me or D7 sometimes. D3 is very honest about her emotions and I'm a little concerned at this new development, but all I can do is do my half of the parenting right and be supportive of their mom with my kids.

Detachment report | WW asked me to keep the kids for an extra two days after the week-end (meaning I'll have them 12 days out of 14) and I accepted because I was available. It turns out that she was flying overseas to attend the funeral of OM's grandfather. It hurt a little, to see her invest in being supportive of her bf. Oh well, it's all part of the play.

GAL report | After I dropped of the kids, I decided to leave town for the 48 hours where they are not with me. I'm visiting friends in another city, working from cafés. I went to the gym for a third time, slowly establishing the new routine. I might have found a partner who would go with me. Oh and the trainer is really hot. wink

Flirting report | I've been forcing myself to chat with nice women, but nothing more. Last night, I went to a dance club (mostly empty - it was a bit sad) and sat there wondering why I wouldn't join in or talk to people. I know most of you think I seek validation or some ego boost from flirting and dating, but to me it's all about changing myself by changing the way I see my interactions with women. I care about my actions with them, not so much about their reaction. Having the courage to express my interest and desire to strangers. I don't know if I'm the only one struggling with this, but I decided to face it, and yet it remains so difficult. Models calls it "the pain period" and the name is accurate.

__________________________

Thanks to all of you for stopping by.

jim0987 | I've heard this idea that we miss the idea of our W or our M, but I can't say that it has clicked with me. It still seems to me that I miss my WW as she was, ven though yes I miss being a nuclear family.

LisaB | So nice to see your name on my thread. Yes, I'm progressing well. I still have this weight on my shoulders, but I feel constant improvement over the weeks and months. As expected.

MCS | Yes, seeing newcomers arrive on the board can sometimes be distressing. I know it is for me. At the same time, I envy them to be at such a place of impact. I wish I had the knowledge and courage to DB early and make an impression on my WW. Now it feels so late in the sitch that my detachment is seen as healthy and normal, not as a surprise of cause for concern.

Karma12 | Yes, GALing helps a lot but what clicked for me was when I realized that I didn't just have to do things, but that I could do things that I really love. It made the whole thing much more enticing.

Vanilla | Thanks for the GAL scoring!


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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Originally Posted By: Mozza
Detachment report | It turns out that she was flying overseas to attend the funeral of OM's grandfather.
Thats [censored]! Sorry Mozza. I don't care who you are that will sting a little.

Originally Posted By: Mozza
Flirting report | I don't know if I'm the only one struggling with this, but I decided to face it, and yet it remains so difficult.
Of course not! On some level all men have their own insecurities. I read somewhere that of most people Mr Nice Guy usually has a tougher time with these interactions, because of a concept they relate too, "putting the woman on a pedestal." I have no idea if thats your struggle, but I can definitely relate. Instead of a dance club, how about just a bar? It may be easier to break through for a discussion.


Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2
M - 8/2008
W is not happy - 1/2014
W wants D - 9/2014
W moved out - 11/2014
D filed - 1/23/2015
D'ed - 2/25/2015
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These days, I'm in a strange place where I still yearn for my WW, yet I want to live the new life I'm building. I'm thrilled to be closer to my kids with all the activities we manage to do when we're together. At the same time, I love having my activities during my week alone. I'm excited at the idea of getting a motorcycle, I like the challenge of flirting and the possibilities it opens. I hang out with friends without asking permission or feeling guilty. If WW was to turn around and ask to R today, I'd be thinking "Wait, I'm not done being alone!" Is it a downside or an upside to building the life I want?

What's strange is that at BD, I immediately envisioned a one-year process or so where WW would find someone new, live a romantic disappointment and then realize her mistake and come back. It's still going according to plan, but I don't find it easy to wait it out. I can't keep my thoughts or emotions still. My resentment for her choosing the A and S is growing. My awareness of the new possibilities without a W from abroad grows; i can have roots in my home country, stay closer to family and friends, etc. My assessment of what lead to the two As and the S evolves but not necessarily in a way that favors R. I feel like I should be thinking more of my faults in the M, but the way my IC is going, it sounds like it really was a problem of compatibility and that I'll be a better person with a better fit. I'm not 100% on board with it, but given that I'm alone now, why not just become "myself" as much as possible and see what happens? And there are things I've learnt about being a better husband, such as the love languages and not being such a Nice Guy all the time.
___________________________

mahhhty | Thanks for stopping by! The trip to the funeral didn't sting too much. In my mind, she's gone. They are starting a new couple, a new life, there's no reason for them to hold back. I guess every little step they will take will sting a bit, much like it will sting her if she hears I've a new girlfriend. Human nature, I guess. And thanks for the dating advice too! I do put women on a pedestal to an extent and tend to overdramatize sex, it seems, as if it's something sacred and very bonding. The flirting experiment is meant to explore this idea.
___________________________

Detachment report | For the first time since BD, I've asked something of WW. I had a flat tire far away from the city and couldn't make it in time to pick up the kids. I asked her if she could go and she told me of office meetings and plans for the evening. I said fine, I'll look for another way. She was kind of put off that I moved on so fast, asking me more details to see if her schedule could be rearranged. I said I'd be fine. She came back later asking if I still needed help because she had rearranged her schedule. I repeated that I was fine and I did put together a plan B. I was not happy that she would play hard to get after I gave her just about every schedule change she wanted in seven months. But then I resolved not to add this to the list of reasons why I'm angry at her. It's not easy, but when I catch myself doing it, I remind myself that she did offer in the end and that I could have accepted, so it was my choice. More importantly: I showed flexibility because it suited me, not to accumulate points with her. My evening turned out great when a friend picked up my kids and three of us ended up watching a game at my place.

GAL Report | I'm very happy with my 48-hour trip out of town. I met several friends and didn't have too much time to dwell on my sitch. Also, I just registered for new dance classes. I'll be swinging (no pun intended) every Thursday, starting this week. I was convinced by a friend that knowing how to dance is a superpower when you meet women. I already love to dance, but I don't know any style or routine. I always thought it was not for me, but if this crisis has taught me anything it's that "it's not for me" is not a good argument.

For those of you out there keeping scores, that's muscle-building gym thrice a week, playing music in public venues, singing karaoke, taking dance classes, perhaps soon on a cool motorcycle, better clothes, grooming and hairstyle, and tons of self-help under the belt. Add to this what's old: a loving father, an OK cook, an entrepreneur with his dream job. Oh and, of course, an expensive watch. Ladies, the line starts here. wink


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Just smiled and gave you a cheeky wink, Mozza. You're in a good place.


H 37 Me 36
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Mozza look how much you have grown. You are establishing a life and making good choices. There is so much more for you to look forward to. I know it.

I just updated my own post. Let me know what you think.

Hugs

Karma


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





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I'm giving you a standing ovation right now Mozza. smile


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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I'm glad you have picked up and are enjoying going to the gym. There is a wide range of positive results that ensue, boht physically and psychologically. Keep it up!

-PM


M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds

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Mozza that article you read in Model sounds very insightful. It will help prepare you for your next dating adventure.


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





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Mozza that article you read in Model sounds very insightful. It will help prepare you for your next dating adventure.


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





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Originally Posted By: MCS
It's overwhelming, but then I realize did any of us think we could get here when we first got in the boards? Wow, I see the 'new' threads pop up, get the sick feeling in my gut that I know how they feel with their first post and then almost feel good that somehow they found this place and I know they'll be in the best hands and come out okay. Then I see Mozza, giving the advice that him and I couldn't understand when we first got here and it makes me realize how much we've grown. Silver Lining? Maybe, I don't know.

For me I see it like this: It's on WW to change and have some way to initiate R if it's in the cards.


This is great! I agree!

I remember when I first arrived here heartbroken, and you Mozza too. We struggled and suffered and questioned.

I feel like now things are on the upside, like you said Mozza, you envisioned a 1 year period and now you are rethinking your own position within that one year time. That's good I think.

And what MCS said above, it's up to the WAS to come back remorseful and then you can decide what to do.

I'm so proud of you Mozza, you are growing and working so hard. And nice watch btw. wink

Hugs, Lisa

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I so agree with what you and Lisa posted above Mozza. I can tell you that after going through a divorce the first time back in 1993. I did not ever want to go through that again. Even though at that time it was me that wanted out my whole life was turned upside down and it took me probably just as long as it has this time to heal

. The difference between the two is that after my first seperation I felt like my life was rollercoaster. The highs were very high and the lows felt really low. I went through a lot of personal growth during that time. I got to know me and what it was that I liked and wanted out of my life. I was very independent and while I dated and wanted male companionship I loved being single. I did not remarry until 2007 after meeting my STBX in 2003.

I remember hearing about others whose marriages had ended and I was so glad to be past that and did not envy at all what they were facing. Divorce is not easy. People think it is the easy way out sometimes but in MHO it's not. I am now almost three years separated. It took me for sure until Jan of this year to feel like I was over the hump. I had happy moments over the last couple of years but I never really felt single or married. I felt like I was in a bad dream in limbo land.

I feel for the new posters too. They are just at the start of a painful journey.


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





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gan | Right back at ya!

Barry | Haha! Thank you. I'm bowing.

PatientMan | Looking forward to the positive effects! For the first time this week-end, I had to people comment positively on my fitness. One of the psychological effects is simply to have the feeling that I'm building something, that I have discipline. So far, so good.

Karma12 | Models has been as invaluable to me as NMMNG, even more than T5LL at this stage. I see a lot of people around here, with the wrong ideas about themselves and relationships, who would benefit from reading it, that's why I recommend the book so regularly, especially the first few chapters. It's very much in line with DB.

LisaB and Karma12 | Funny how the early days make us feel like we're still close to saving the M, while it's probably the moment we're furthest away from it. I feel so much better now, over seven moths later. I wouldn't go back there. I sleep and eat well, I don't think or talk about the sitch all the time, I enjoy my life. And yes, I understand so much more of DB than when I arrived. Something for all newcomers to keep in mind: it gets better.

___________________________

GAL report | I had my first swing (the dance!) class tonight. It went as bad as expected. I love to dance alone, but I can't memorize steps or coordinate with someone else to save my life. Still, it was nice to get out of my comfort zone like this and I intend to persist. I also have my gym three times a week. I had the kids this week. There was a lot of bonding. We've had dinner at a friend's of D7, and I'm good friend with the father. I've added a few songs to our family repertoire (Chandelier by Sia, Odds Are by the Barenaked Ladies), including a couple of songs that I wrote. The look in the eyes of D7 when she realizes that a song she likes was written by her father... Tomorrow morning will be the end of a stretch of 12 days out of 14 with the kids. It was tiring but really rewarding. I just love hearing them sing, seeing them dance, asking for hugs or to be held. I love their voices. Despite the work, they make the home so much warmer.

PMA report | I had a couple of bad days, without much reason. Some very small contacts with WW about finances, nothing serious even. No big setbacks at home. I've been emotional, lots of self-pity, bouts of crying. Then in the middle of this, some highly productive hours. It doesn't all make sense, but then again it's an intense period of my life.

IC report | I talked about my anxiety at doing so many new things that are out of character for me, especially the flirting, and my IC said that it was a good thing. Anxiety crops up when my desires hit my limitations. I could choose to back off, stay in my comfort zone and not change, but I hit the anxiety zone repeatedly, slowly pushing it away and evolving. I've to say that, when it comes to women, I do feel more comfortable showing my interest than when this started a little over a month ago. I do plenty of other little things that challenge the idea of "that's not me". This week for instance, I drank matcha (tea) and decided to buy the kit to do it at home. Tea and coffee were the purview of WW and I always said and thought that I had no interest for it, but today I've acknowledged that the matcha was good and that it was time to test this old perception of me. I don't know that it's impressive from the outside, but inside it's quit a thing to constantly ask "Am I really like this? Is this really what I like? What I want? What if I tried something different?"

Detachment report | D3 said tonight "I don't like OM. He's upset at me when I'm noisy when I sleep". It doesn't make much sense, but it tells me that they have started dealing with the stress of having kids (at 28, he was saddled with my two kids). It was the first time that the kids complained about him, but other than that they only had mild jabs at him, such as how he stinks when he's back from his runs. The only "positive" thing I heard from them about him is that he brought them chocolate, but that's from six months ago. Anyway, for the first time today I felt that being a good father may play in my favor one day (for R of course; I know it does in life in general), something that 25yearsmlc (where is she?) tells us regularly. It's a nice thought, instead of being told by WW that it was a reason to dump me since she wouldn't worry about them when they're with me...

Flirting report | Not much, really. The trainer at the gym is cute, there are at least two cute single women in my dance class, sent a (neutral) email to a woman I met at a work event, etc. At least, I'm staying in the anxiety zone instead of giving up! My week alone is about to start, so we'll see.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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Mozza....I went through many times where I felt lonely and sad. Now it's different. I actually embrace and enjoy my alone time! It's amazing how our perspective and aditude affect how we feel. You have come so far....you are preparing yourself for the next chapter of your life. Enjoy!!


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





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GAL report | Big week-end, as usual. I went to see a sports game on Friday evening and then I went out to dance in a club and came back at 3 am. Nothing much to report except that the only girl that I invited to dance was immediately taken back by.... her boyfriend. Obviously, I had not idea. Haha. Saturday and Sunday, went to a hackathon related to my field. Made lots of business contacts, as is always the case. Friday and Sunday, to the gym. Sunday night with a couple of friends.

Flirting report | I registered on an online dating site. I almost want to say "by accident". I clicked on an ad out of curiosity for how it works, they asked for an address, a birth date, an email... And suddenly I had an account. If you had asked me five minutes earlier, I would have said I was not ready. But now that I've done it, and completed my profile, I realize that I can just be straightforward about where I am. I'm willing to date after all. I mention the separation and not being available for long term. And I see that there are other people in the same situation, looking for something similar. We're so far out of my comfort zone... That's the point.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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Originally Posted By: Mozza
I registered on an online dating site. I almost want to say "by accident". I clicked on an ad out of curiosity for how it works, they asked for an address, a birth date, an email... And suddenly I had an account. If you had asked me five minutes earlier, I would have said I was not ready. But now that I've done it, and completed my profile, I realize that I can just be straightforward about where I am. I'm willing to date after all. I mention the separation and not being available for long term. And I see that there are other people in the same situation, looking for something similar. We're so far out of my comfort zone... That's the point.


Mozza,

For once, I headed you off on this one. As you probably read, I did the same thing the other week almost by chance too. Then, not knowing the site; I guess it emailed folks I was 'interested' when I looked at their profile. I'm not ready to date and I pretty much said I was just looking for new connections in my profile. So, I've been talking to some people online and I feel its like a baby step. Its weird, its kind of like this site; its comforting to see others going through similar things. Lots of unsure people out there of what is in store for them.

This site has been an absolute Godsend, but the discussions I see are more focused on what the future holds instead of dealing with what has happened in the past. I think that's what DB is trying to show us, its just we are so broken when we get here. I see that this is the next step for me, although its weird checking this site and then hopping over to that one.

I get the same anxious feeling that you do. It's been all small talk, but you can tell its two people struggling to figure out what to do and uncertain of where to take things.

Also, I read a few posts ago about your ups and downs and I feel the exact same way. Its just I can tell my 'ups' are much more prevalent than my 'downs.' I guess I wondered it would eventually get to this point, but there was no way I believed it in the beginning.

Glad you're doing better.




M:36 W:37
T: 15 M:11
S6 D5
BD: 8/10/14
IDLY: 8/12/14
S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids)
D Mentioned: 10/15/14
Confronted about OM: 10/15/14
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Mozza... Sounds like a good weekend. Especially dancing with a taken girl! haha I love that! Keep on keeping on!


Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2
M - 8/2008
W is not happy - 1/2014
W wants D - 9/2014
W moved out - 11/2014
D filed - 1/23/2015
D'ed - 2/25/2015
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Happy fishing Mozza.....lol. Just be careful online. There are nice people but there are also some that post pics that are years old and there are others that are looking for a hook up. Don't give out any personal info and meet in a public place.

Looking forward to hearing some updates!


Me 52 H 44
T9 M 5
BD 12/11 H
split 8/12
OW moved in 12/12
OW gone for good 6/14
We get closer again 9/14
SD 13 Me 4 Grown





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D report | I went to an information session about the mediation process in my jurisdiction tonight. It had taken me weeks to register. I don't know if WW went, but we got the same info. As expected, it wasn't easy. I welled up several times, when something seemed to touch on my own situation. I didn't see anyone who seem to get quite as emotional, although I didn't quite stare at people and I might have been hiding it well too. I got some useful information, some of which about how I might want to communicate more with WW about the kids, if only to reassure them that we do. Other than that, I don't feel ready to get started, but I will if I have to. This all feels like cutting my own legs. I'm full of admiration for all of you who take the lead or just go along with it.

PMA report | As I wrote on another thread, it seems like my feelings about the sitch are not really changing, they simply decrease. As the challenges of getting a D and then raising the kids in a co-parenting arrangement become more apparent, I feel more and more that this is all so unnecessary. From my perspective, all it required was a couple of minor adjustments on our parts, not pushing the self-destroy button. But then I realize that it doesn't matter what I think. I've thought the same thing from the start, I told her and yet she decided we were through and all this was better than staying together. It just is and I have to deal with it.

Sometimes I wonder if I would cry as much if my WW didn't tell me at BD that I didn't love her enough or that I was a robot without emotion. Could it be that I ache so much out of anger, to prove her wrong on some of the basic reasons she gave me for leaving? Is this why I so often feel this urge to show her my pain, even though I never do? "Look, you were wrong to leave: I am emotional and in pain that you left!" If she left and said that I'm too emotional and smothering, would I have cried as much, or feel any desire to show her my pain? Some idle thoughts to try to get a hold of my feelings and reactions.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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Mozza, don't miss my posts tonight. I was talking to you in Nole's, and may as well have been on Pyrite's.

I have really admired the way you conduct yourself by your convictions, even when we've quibbled on whether you should date again this lifetime or not smile

You are a leader Mozza. I can tell that. I am grateful for your children you are able to be strong for them, and pray that you too will get the support and strength to continue on this road.


Me:38 XW:38
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Mozza - Don't feel bad about getting emotional about the actual divorce process. There's no getting around it - it just stinks. I'm almost done - but every time I get a legal document with our names on it, it upsets me. This week I got one that was no big deal at all - where I signed off that it was ok for STBX to pay me child support directly instead of having the state collect it. Yet I still felt like throwing up. It's one of the issues I have being sympathetic to STBX - because I literally cannot understand why anyone, barring abuse, would voluntarily instigate this.

And about this....

Originally Posted By: Mozza

Sometimes I wonder if I would cry as much if my WW didn't tell me at BD that I didn't love her enough or that I was a robot without emotion. Could it be that I ache so much out of anger, to prove her wrong on some of the basic reasons she gave me for leaving? Is this why I so often feel this urge to show her my pain, even though I never do? "Look, you were wrong to leave: I am emotional and in pain that you left!" If she left and said that I'm too emotional and smothering, would I have cried as much, or feel any desire to show her my pain? Some idle thoughts to try to get a hold of my feelings and reactions.


My gut instinct is a pretty simplistic one - but, in your bones, do you really believe what she told you? I'm sure there are some grains of truth in what our WAS's say, but when there is an affair in the mix - I am highly skeptical that it is anything other than the need for justification. Your wife has done this before, and I believe in the past you have probably accurately assessed that this is largely about her.


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Originally Posted By: Mozza
From my perspective, all it required was a couple of minor adjustments on our parts, not pushing the self-destroy button.

Yes. This is what I struggle with as well. But the reality might be a bit different? I mean maybe things were a bigger deal than we realised? To our spouses I mean. In my case, I think my optimistic "it will be ok" nature possibly meant I didn't see the major adjustments for what they were. What do you think?


H 37 Me 36
Together 15 years
Married 5 years
No kids
BD Apr 2014
H moved out 2 Jun 2014
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 545
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Originally Posted By: gan
Originally Posted By: Mozza
From my perspective, all it required was a couple of minor adjustments on our parts, not pushing the self-destroy button.

Yes. This is what I struggle with as well. But the reality might be a bit different? I mean maybe things were a bigger deal than we realised? To our spouses I mean. In my case, I think my optimistic "it will be ok" nature possibly meant I didn't see the major adjustments for what they were. What do you think?


So, I thought about this for a second and I think there are definitely folks here that realize that there were overarching deep issues with their M, their WAS or themselves and the BD is what 'woke them up' to seeing it. However, I see some of us that the issues themselves were not the problem. However the "Communication" of those issues in the M was the true Coup d'état of the decline. While from a logical standpoint, one is harder to solve than another. The lack of Communication itself is probably more toxic than something tangible that we can identify.

Regardless, I feel the same way. My mind-reading is that WW knows this too. That if we communicate, than things can be resolved. She's not sure she wants to resolve it....so she won't communicate. Ahhh, hopefully the fog will lift.


M:36 W:37
T: 15 M:11
S6 D5
BD: 8/10/14
IDLY: 8/12/14
S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids)
D Mentioned: 10/15/14
Confronted about OM: 10/15/14
EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13
She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,720
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Hi Mozza,

Just a question. when you think back, how much did you surpress your emotions because you didnt want to show weakness or thought that being upset or otherwise meant something was wrong with you as person (i'm think nice guy mask here)

I may be on completely the wrong track with that though


Both mid 30s, 2 young kids
BD 7sep14
XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1
D paperwork in progress
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