Alpha - the future is now!

[alpha99]

Previous thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2548599&page=12

OK, new thread time.

Meeting up with W and kids later. I have some new clothes (jacket and shirt) to look my best.

I plan to focus my attention on the kids of course. There's a good chance they will be excited about their new house. I'm wondering how to handle this. Of course I want to be excited for the kids and share their excitement, but I also don't want to sit in front of my W saying how great her new place and life is...without me.

Any guidance on how to handle this?

[alpha99]

Out with W and kids this evening. Went to cinema. Kids enjoyed it. W cordial. Afterwards she reluctantly accepted lift home with kids and we went McDonald's drive thru on the way. W really didn't want me in her new place. Kids insisted I ate with them. Went in, had food, so far, so good. Put the kids to bed. Had a tear in my eye.

Now the fun begins. W asked to have a word about parenting. Explained she doesn't trust me. This leads to long conversation, during which she apologised for having the affair and said it was wrong and she should have just split up with me. Said she hadn't been happy for 18 months or so. Went over some of our R issues, all of which we've covered before but this time in more detail. Again and again her mantra was she wants to be friendly and amicable for the kids. What did I do? Well, I got upset...W kept calling me out on recent threats. I had a minute to compose myself. We continued, covered a lot of ground...but I cried quite a bit throughout. Didn't do.any pleading though. Explained I was sorry for how I'd treated. Too much back and forth to.go.into here. I think it cleared the air somewhat, maybe did a little damage, but overall I wouldn't say so. She's adamant the way she was treated and then her having A means we could never get over this. Says she feels nothing for me. Wants to in the future be able to go on days out with the kids. Couldn't be clearer at this point she doesn't want any R with me. Only when asked about long term future and her plans did she seem to have doubts. Whilst saying we couldn't get back together, she seemed to stop short of saying never...tho most of her speech throughout conversation implied that.

Felt like dirt leaving, feel a bit better now. A friendlier R would be a start but she keeps saying clean breaks etc and shows zero interest in a future together. Seems A is over...so it would seem. W again said it meant nothing, he could have been anyone, is not that kind of person (well, she is), and did it cos of how I treated her. She understood it's a crap sitch and it is hard for her too, and I'm heartbroken. When I said I hadn't shown her love well enough recently for X reasons, she seemed to take that on board. Too little too late was the gist of her reply.

I'm shattered now. I miss my kids and W so much. THIS IS SO HARD. Tho I did better, yet again I struggled to contain emotions. THIS IS SO HARD.

No talk of D, just we are separated. No deep insight to that though...she was clear as day where she stands right now.

[Jefe]

Well, that's a start. Understand, she's playing the script word for word. My wife told anyone who would listen that too much had happened in our marriage to ever fix it.

Sounds like you did fairly well but let's have others chime in before you take my word for anything. I will say this, when it's time to have future relationship/reconciliation conversations you can always say to her something to the effect of: "I'm not asking you to feel a particular way, I'm asking you to work on the marriage with me, the feelings may come later." or something to that effect.

Hang in there, keep working on you, GALing, all that good stuff. It gets easier, I promise.

[twinmom]

NO RELATIONSHIP TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can't emotionally handle it and it only sets you back. Try a line like, "I don't think rehashing this right now would be good for either of us right now."

[Starsky309]

Alpha, what part of "No R talks!!!" don't you understand?

I'm not sure why you keep on insisting on touching the hot stove, and then come here saying "Today I got burned and set myself back, but I'm going to do better from this point forward.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

NO RELATIONSHIP TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can't emotionally handle it and it only sets you back. Try a line like, "I don't think rehashing this right now would be good for either of us right now."

Didn't see this. Yes, THIS ^^^^^.

[Complex]

Sorry to hear alpha. I know EXACTLY how this feels. W sits in front of you and makes things 100% clear to you, and sure..you start to believe her.
Same for me, my W makes herself sooo clear about not wanting R with me.
This is what she is thinking NOW. And maybe she will think this in the long term future too. Do you know it? Does she know it? No.
It feels so hard but just let HER talk, validate (you don't have to agree). You know what the only true way is into a women's heart? I talked to my DB coach with this.
It's TRULY listening and understanding her. This is a lot to ask for most men. But once you can truly detach from your own thoughts, you will be able to purely focus on what she has to say. Women are sensitive creatures.
What I want to say is that you should just focus on what she has to say, don't get INVOLVED in the R talk. Stand for what you believe in, be consistent, listen...then get away from the discussion with integrity.

What's the mother of success? Repetition. That means you figure out what YOU want, where you want to be, and then you go for it. Keep learning how to be a great husband (for your W or whoever else in the future), a great person, stay true to yourself, stay strong and confident, get your life straightened out, be in charge of your life, get wiser, learn about how your W feels, show her consistency and she will gain respect for you. Be a man only an idiot would divorce! If she still does, she's and idiot..! Do it for yourself, do it for the kids, do it for the people that surround you, do it for God!
Don't give up, don't overthink!

[alpha99]

W seems happy. Said she'd dealt with it over recent months. Said yeah, it's hard but there's nothing I (she) can do. Only wants to be amicable for kids...NOTHING ELSE.

R talk stemmed from parenting and trust issues. Hard to keep the two separate. She seems to have detached completely. Every time I see her I think of how much I love her. Moments together like in the cinema feel almost normal. I know they're not.

Kids are happy in their new house. Oh how I miss them.

W reluctance to let me in house was due to her knowing I'd get upset. She was right. Long talk covered a lot but really confirmed her deep resentment of me. Everything in her eyes is my fault. Her parents werent at our wedding, they werent around when our kids were born, I nagged her over shutting doors, turning lights off, spending money, had tight control over finances, she couldn't buy clothes, make up, called her nasty names, grinder her down etc etc. Why would anyone want to go back to that. They wouldn't. I'm changing. Those things would be so different. TOO LITTLE TOO LATE.

I'm not giving up. She did say she'd like to get on to point we can go on days out as a family. If we reach that point she may start to soften if I get things right. She said she deserves someone who'll treat her like a princess. She does. What a fool I am.

[alpha99]

W just called so kids can say good morning. Asked if I want to have them Saturday. Answered yes of course.

W gonna let me know if we are me going to meet again Friday as W mentioned to do something with kids.

W reiterated wants to be friendly. W said if we can then great, we can get on better and I'll have the kids more.

She was very pleasant on the phone. W said last night she doesn't want to use solicitors re kids. I agreed. I said they wouldnt thank us (her) for it when they get older if we won't both part of their lives. She agreed.

My dilemma is this: she needs time to disassociate negative feelings from me. Her criticisms revolve around not being nice to her and nagging. I need to balance giving her space, not ignoring her (w complained of unanswered texts when she sent mms of son's tooth) but being friendly and nice with re to her criticisms when we meet. Difficult balancing act.

I need to show I can be her friend first and foremost, show I'm there for the kids, not some plan to win her back (though it is really), and over time see if she notices changes and softens.

[Sotto]

Hi Alpha

I don't think you want to be her 'friend' whilst she is having an A. You are her H and she has betrayed you and her vows to you by getting involved with someone else. Of course, this doesn't mean being unpleasant to her. That's not going to help you right now.

I think the kids and you are your priority now. And you need to grasp the difference between being her 'friend' (where you can risk appearing to condone the A) and interacting with her in a brief, pleasant and upbeat way - much like a neighbour.

I think the main thing is to work on your own stability and reliability, so she is more comfortable with you spending time with the kids

[alpha99]

Hi Toots,

I hear what you're saying. W spoke with disgust of OM last night, how he was nothing and didn't mean anything, it was just sex, she led him on...and it would appear to be over. She spoke in past tense a lot. That could all be lies of course but from her body language I tend to believe her.

W just called again so D5 could say hello/good morning. Again, very pleasant on the phone. If I were to assume it is over with OM, then is it time to be nice without being overbearing etc? I'm going to give her space, not hound her etc, no more R talk, but work on getting on with her, having her trust me there's no hidden agenda (one of her main reoccurring thoughts).

Of course my kids will be a main priority in everything I do.

[alpha99]

Just to add, whilst out I kept conversation to a minimum (in cinema majority of time so couldnt speak anyway). Did initiate once or twice in low key way (weather etc). On route to McDs W asked how my parents were. At Mcds drive thru we shared a laugh over her dad getting the drive thru wrong last week. Positive signs she's calming down at least...W still has a lot of anger aimed at me though at times whenever R comes up. I feel a bit better this morning but this is hard, hard, hard.

[Sotto]

"W still has a lot of anger aimed at me though at times whenever R comes up"

I think it's really really important to stick to the "No R TAlks!" rule as the Vets say above. It's a cheeseless tunnel right now.

I wouldn't set too much store by what she's saying about the A either...

You say it's too little too late above. Well, who knows in terms of your M - time will tell my friend. But in termss of you, your future life, your kids and possible future relationships....there's plenty of life to be lived yet!

Keep going Alpha, you're doing great. Keep heeding the advice and practicing emotional control in more difficult situations...

[alpha99]

Hi everyone,

I'm well aware I shouldn't be talking about R right now with W. Avoiding that topic completely is going to be the best way to do that because as soon we get near R talk I do start to fall apart slightly. I suppose I should be thinking of the positives instead:

W is speaking to me and wants to be friendly (BUT THAT'S IT!)

W is open to letting me have the children more and more.

We have been out together twice since last Friday, with this Friday also in the pipeline (I know this is more of a supervisory situation than family time).

W realises I want to be there for our children as much as possible.

I believe A is over. Certainly as far as I know W is not engaging in a free and open relationship with anyone/anyone else. As long as this that is the case then there is always hope.

I can't remember everything that was said last night but I'm sure at one point W mentioned about if things got better I could stay over on the couch for special occasions wit kids. I'm not certain if that is exactly what she meant, that's what I took from it though. The conversation moved on and I didn't ask. It was either that or she was talking about the kids staying over night with me. I think it was the former rather than latter she meant though.

It is SO HARD not to contact W unnecessarily. After dealings with her I feel a short lived boost followed by a massive low that the interaction doesn't last.

There is a story in the Expect the Impossible section of DR that seems like my sitch: W said I hate you, don't love you etc...H spent more family time with no pressure or R talks, and over time things started to get better. That is the blueprint I think I am going to have to follow now.

W pointed out clearly how I was controlling her, restricting her, putting her down and generally making her feel like crap. I wonder how to navigate this. Would LRT work? I know I need to give her space and not pursue but when we are together should I be working on doing 180s on all the behaviour traits she doesn't like, be bright and breezy, upbeat etc, or do something else. I think it is time for another coaching session.

[Starsky309]

Hi Alpha

I don't think you want to be her 'friend' whilst she is having an A. You are her H and she has betrayed you and her vows to you by getting involved with someone else. Of course, this doesn't mean being unpleasant to her. That's not going to help you right now.

I think the kids and you are your priority now. And you need to grasp the difference between being her 'friend' (where you can risk appearing to condone the A) and interacting with her in a brief, pleasant and upbeat way - much like a neighbour.

I think the main thing is to work on your own stability and reliability, so she is more comfortable with you spending time with the kids

BINGO.

[Starsky309]

Hi Toots,

I hear what you're saying. W spoke with disgust of OM last night, how he was nothing and didn't mean anything, it was just sex, she led him on...and it would appear to be over. She spoke in past tense a lot. That could all be lies of course but from her body language I tend to believe her.

Types of Convos

Here's the thing: if someone is in an ongoing, unrepentant affair, there are only a few types of conversations/communications they can have with their betrayed spouse, and ALL of them are cheeseless tunnels for the BS:

1) NEGATIVE ones. Blame-making, re-writing marital history, angry outbursts, fight-picking, etc. 'nuff said.

2) Seemingly POSITIVE ones. So long as they are still in contact with OM/OW and lying to their spouse about it, these are all "bullchit spin" at best, and outright GASLIGHTING and LIES at worse. And the problem is, the betrayed spouse inevitably sees this as "baby steps!" and true marital progress, when they are no such thing. They can lead to horrible strategic and tactical mistakes, esp. if the BS doesn't have a good intel system in place. Reading my old journal yesterday, I was BLOWN AWAY at how stable I was able to be in the face of my wife's deceit, simply because I HAD INTEL TO SHOW ME OTHERWISE. This can't be overemphasized.

3) LEGAL/FINANCIAL ones. These are best handled by your attorney, for the obvious reasons. If you start negotiating yourself, when you are way, way, WAY too emotionally entrenched in the situation (and also often running on too-little sleep and WAY too-little emotional needs of your own being met), YOU WILL MAKE FOOLISH MISTAKES and UNWISE CONCESSIONS.

4) FAMILY/LOGISTICAL ones. These are fine, but best handled via e-mail or text message. A cheating spouse will use these as a ploy to lure you into R convos and worse; SEE #1 ABOVE.

5) SMALL-TALK. This is fine, but only in RESPONSE -- don't initiate it if your strategy is to go "dim" and if it's to go "dark" you shouldn't even respond. If it's "dim," then only respond to one of every several communications, and usually delayed, because you're BUSY and GETTING A LIFE, remember?

Puppy

[Starsky309]

It feels so hard but just let HER talk, validate (you don't have to agree). You know what the only true way is into a women's heart? I talked to my DB coach with this.
It's TRULY listening and understanding her. This is a lot to ask for most men. But once you can truly detach from your own thoughts, you will be able to purely focus on what she has to say. Women are sensitive creatures.
What I want to say is that you should just focus on what she has to say, don't get INVOLVED in the R talk. Stand for what you believe in, be consistent, listen...then get away from the discussion with integrity.

Complex, I agree with ALL of this ^^^^, and it is to be sure the PREFERABLE way to handle the interactions. Validation is a powerful tool, and one that especially us men need to work on. However, if one cannot yet control their emotional reactivity to conversations with a wayward spouse, I would advise them to avoid the convos altogether. It's better not to have validated, in my opinion, than to have been drawn into yet-another R talk and then handle it poorly. Until Alpha can get his DBing sea legs under him more consistently, I'd rather see him avoid these convos with his wife altogether, by saying "We'll talk about this later," and ending it, and perhaps even considering using a trusted third party for all child exchanges.


Starsky

[alpha99]

I am going to read these latest responses again and again. I know they are excellent advice. I guess, against my own initial perception, that I am STILL in shock mode. Only 4 months ago we had a nice family holiday. My life has been turned upside down, gobbled up and spewed out. I'm trying hard not to be a victim now. What seems like set in stone will change...at least my R and interaction with kids. I need to APPLY what I understand in theory. Validation is key. I am doing elements of it but getting thrown off piste by W and my emotions.

Whilst speaking to W last night I had DB thoughts running through my head. At times I listened and changed course, at other times I ploughed on into the void. Discipline is key. No good validating for 5 minutes to then start reasoning or blaming. That is so hard to do...but if I want a fighting chance to get my W and family back that's what I need to do.

[Starsky309]

You've got it. I've always said that DBing is NOT complicated, but it DOES take a tremendous amount of self-discipline. THAT (and our own, sometimes-painful introspection) is the "hard" part of the "this is really hard." There's nothing really complicated in the concepts themselves.


Starsky

[Sotto]

Good for you Alpha. You're right about discipline. It is an important element. It's also useful to ask yourself whether what you are about to say or do will get you closer or further away from your end goal.

Normally when we give into our emotions and so something daft (been there :-)) it takes us further from our goal. And that's where the discipline and self control come in. We override our impulses and respond to things in a measured way.

I think you're probably right about the shock too. It takes a while to come to terms with what has happened. But, like so many of us - you're moving forwards my friend...

[alpha99]

The thing I find difficult is gauging the extent to which I interact. Take Friday for example. If we go bowling it's a physical activity. I can focus on kids of course and have fun with them, no R talk with W etc, it's I struggle with whether to not say anything and wait for her to speak, drop little bits if conversations but nothing big, or be as friendly and as nice as I can be...and it seems she wants.

If her problem has been I haven't been nice to her, how would pulling back help? If I shouldnt pursue, how do I be nice without doing so? I'm aware of doing what's counter intuitive. I'm also scared if doing what's wrong. What a mess.

EDIT: it's taking everything I have not to send her 'one more message with meaning'. I know it won't work but I just...want to.

I won't though.

Just to point out: W is only person I've ever been with. I am only real person she has been with (apart from OM recently of course). By 'real' I mean sex. We've both kissed others of course when younger, and she hung around with a lad from college before we met but not in a serious way, more a schoolyard sort of way. This is therefore the first time I've ever had my heartbroken...and man it is not good.

[Sotto]

Hi Alpha, I think neigbourly is your watchword here. What might you talk to your neighbour about and how would you be when talking to them? Have that in your mind.

Also have in your mind the positive things you want your W to see. You're coping well with this, you're a good dad, an interesting person and so on. You don't want to go overboard with these - like trying to be superdad or mega upbeat - or it will seem false, but you want to act in accordance with these things.

You may even want to have some 'safe' subjects to hand, and turn to them if in any doubt. Weather, news items, work (as long as OM isn't work), hobbies and so on.

Of course, what the kids have been doing is a good one.

But never stray into R territory, and if she tries to, avoid talking about it if you can. Say, if she raised something at bowling, you could say - let's not discuss this here, we can talk another time if you want. But then don't arrange the other time or ever bring it up again...

Hope this helps a little...

[alpha99]

Excellent advice toots.

Isn't it funny, I consider myself to be an intelligent person, and when I read other people's problems I seem to have a clear idea of what I think the best approach might be for them. When I turn to my own sitch, everything becomes muddy and I struggle to think straight because of my emotions. What you're saying makes perfect sense. Once again it is all in the application of the the theory I guess.

[alpha99]

Something strange is happening: I feel fine. I've done an awful lot of reading today and the end result is I feel good. Who knows if this feeling will last - I guess not in the shot term, but I feel like life goes on regardless, I will always love my W and kids, and if W doesn't want that I will ultimately have to be fine - so why not start now. I will always love my kids and go through hell to be there for them and to show them how to be a good person.

[alpha99]

Not feeling as good as last night now, but keeping it together better, I hope.

Today and tuesday are parents evenings for our children. W hasn't made an appointment to see teacher yet. I texted her to say good morning to the kids, and ask if it was today.

She's going to sort out the arrangements. W was pleasant sounding on the phone, casual and relaxed. She's at work today so it is disheartening to think FIL and not me will be picking the kids up later from school.

One thing I've noticed, and it may be nothing, but if I text W over something she responds by calling me instead of texting. I wonder if next time there is a need to communicate I should call instead of texting.

[Starsky309]

I think you should request that ALL communication about the kids be via text. You do better with that, and are better able to keep your emotions in check.

If you set up a set parenting calendar, and use an online calendar such as Cozi, the day-to-day communication stuff really shouldn't be that much, and can easily be done via the occasional text message.


Starsky

[alpha99]

Having a rough time of it right now. Nothing really has happened to spark it off, I just feel like crap.

I've been for a family meal in the local Chinese at dinner time here. It started fine but just like last time I felt depressed at time went on, as I heard music playing, as I thought of times I had been there with my W, as everyone was talking about family, kids, what they're doing today, tomorrow, next week etc.

On the way home in the car I was on the verge of crying. I don't want to be a victim but WHY OH WHY is this happening. Sure, we had problems but aren't people meant to work those things out. I can even get over that she had an A - I just miss her and my children SO MUCH. I WANT THEM BACK HOME WITH ME.

Starksy, great advice as ever. I am actually very composed on the phone. I have noticed, if other people are present and the interaction is short with W then I don't have a problem. If we are alone face to face for any extended period then I get upset. I just don't know at all what to do for the best right now. I know pursuing is a bad idea but I feel sick to the pit of my stomach just thinking that I will cut back communication with her to an absolute minimum. I know it's my emotions speaking but I want to be with her, with my kids, have days out, be nice and get along, try and work things out bit by bit. W doesn't want any of that at the moment.

I feel like I'm going mad. Every minute of every day is taken up thinking about my sitch, what I could have done, how my kids are missing out if they're not seeing me, how I might do something to fix things, what my W wants, what I want, where she is right now, who she's speaking to, has she met someone else, what is she doing tonight, will we go out together tomorrow, what should I wear, say, do, how should I act...I could go on and on. I am madly in love with her. I haven't shown that all the time I should. On the contrary, I've done things that make her think I don't love her - and now she doesn't love me.

I feel so low. I feel so, so low. There is definitely a rollercoaster of emotions through all of this. I just wonder whether W feels the same way. Is she happy every day? Does she get lonely at night? Does she miss me, have regrets, even if she isn't openly showing them? Who knows? Only her I suppose. But I love her and I want her back. I know we don't always get what we want but oh man, I would be willing to make some big changes in our life to have a happy life together.

All the GALing etc in the world is great, all the DB'n techniques fantastic, but what is the point of anything if you can't be with your W and kids? I know I'm working through all this to have that as the end goal but whoa is it hard work dealing with emotions. I'm keeping well dressed and presented but since I'm not seeing W much she isn't around to see. I just feel like the ground could swallow me up right now and have done with it. I just feel like I am going to be heartbroken forever. Yes, people do get over things. But if I have to spend the rest of my life seeing my children (and my daughter is a carbon copy of my W in terms of looks) and seeing the failure of my marriage and how it has affected all of us, then that is an almighty burden to have to carry for the rest of my life. I am sure W is not thinking that far ahead. She is a mobile addict. She is never off the thing. I would spend time playing with the kids and she would be texting etc elsewhere...all the time. Now I'm in a sitch where I can't be with the kids, and even the other night when I was there for a little bit she spent some time then in the kitchen on her phone. Since I have whatsapp installed and her as a contact I can see that it updates a lot to say she is always online using it. I don't know who she's messaging night and day, but it ain't me.

Will this ever get better? Will this ever get easier. I hope so because living like this is a nightmare. Holding on with little hope is so hard. If we were divorced and she met someone else etc then I would have to face reality that it is over. Being in limbo wondering whether she will ever reconsider and all the time wondering if she is still single, how the kids are etc is, like I said, the hardest thing in life to have to deal with.

I am not a religious person at all. We got married in a church because my W is catholic (though not a staunch one). The religious side didn't mean that much to me to be honest, but my vows were taken deadly seriously. If there is a God (I don't want to offend people here, I have no qualms in what other people believe) then now would be a good time to give me a hand please. For about the first time in my life the other night I laid in bed and prayed. I don't know who to or why, but I thought that if there is a higher power then at least for the sake of my children please help us all out of this nightmare. They deserve to be brought up in a loving environment with their mum and dad being happy together. I am willing to spend the rest of my life working on myself to ensure that is the case. If only my W was willing to do the same. We have had amazing highs together. This is an all time low in my life. If it persists then I don't know how much strength I have to continue on like this...

[twinmom]

Your not living in limbo. Your wife has said it's over. Accept that, start acting like it's over. Move on with YOUR life. Maybe she will follow and maybe she won't. But right now denial isn't getting you anywhere.

[alpha99]

I know you're right twinmom but that is so hard to do. To move on when you're in love, when you have children, when they have been your whole life every waking moment.

I know doing things that seem counter intuitive is the thing here. I want to save my marriage. I have read the about the LRT. I've even started to implement it. I guess I haven't read it like you say though: Is the basic premise of it to leave your former life behind, start a new one in the best way possible, improving yourself as you go, with the kids involved as much as possible, do it for yourself but hope that in the process of doing so your wife has a realisation of who you've become and maybe decides to change her mind?

[alpha99]

W has called.

She wants to go out tonight with the kids now, not tomorrow. I agreed. It was either that or not see them for a few more days. W is coming too. We are going bowling and out for tea. Pointless guessing I know but my best bet is that she has arranged a night out for tomorrow hence the desire to switch days.

I've just reviewed all your earlier recommendations; neighbourly nice, no R talk, have a back up of topics to 'chat' over (weather, news, kids, school etc), display the new traits I would like her so see, be upbeat, show I'm coping well (act as if cos I'm not) and so on.

To think I'm writing this about how to deal with my own W is kinda surreal.

[Starsky309]

All the GALing etc in the world is great, all the DB'n techniques fantastic, but what is the point of anything if you can't be with your W and kids?

Your kids, YES. But Alpha if you NEED your wife, then that isn't love . . . it's co-dependency. And it's NOT healthy.

And I think you clearly DO "need" her in order to even get through more than 24 hours with your stability intact. I think you're going to need some really good individual counseling to deal with this, as it's way above MY pay grade or really any of us on an anonymous internet relationship forum. Because yes, the DB principles DO require you to not pursue, and yet you're basically saying (and showing us) that you NEED to, you NEED to be with her in order to even be happy in your life.

Our spouse should be our FROSTING, not our CAKE.

I'm sorry you're struggling so much. As for the God thing, I too used to cry out to Him to DO something. And thru my sitch, I realized that He was waiting for ME to, and that He would help me. And He did.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

I know doing things that seem counter intuitive is the thing here. I want to save my marriage. I have read the about the LRT. I've even started to implement it. I guess I haven't read it like you say though: Is the basic premise of it to leave your former life behind, start a new one in the best way possible, improving yourself as you go, with the kids involved as much as possible, do it for yourself but hope that in the process of doing so your wife has a realisation of who you've become and maybe decides to change her mind?

YES, with the additional realization that if she doesn't, you and your kids will be okay.

And YES, it's hard. Damned hard. As the first sentence of a great booked called A Road Less Traveled says,

"Life is difficult."


Starsky

[Drew]

Great book. Highly recommend it. Also, the first reading assignment my counselor gave me way back when. Right after she asked me what I was so afraid of.

She even suggested I frame the Robert Frost poem the line originates from as my personal mantra.

DB is The Road Less Traveled.

[twinmom]

I used to cry(hysterically sob) when I was alone for God to bring my husband back and then I realized just asking for what I wanted wasn't going to make it happen.

I started praying for God to hold me and ease my pain. I prayed for him to open the doors that need to be opened and close the ones he knows should be shut.

Alpha, you NEED an IC and VERY likely some anti depressants.

[alpha99]

It's a lovely sunny spring afternoon here, the kind of afternoon where I would normally take the children to the park at the end of the road and play football, come home and have our tea, play some games, watch tv, cuddle them and send them off to bed. Today I don't get to see them at all.

W called back and uhm'd and arh'd about whether we should go out tonight or tomorrow (I'm guessing she had msgs back saying so and so can't make it for a night out or whatever). I might be wrong but it would seem I'm the second choice here. I knew I should have set out a boundary and stuck to making it tomorrow that we go out. Now she has dilly dallied around and I look like I'm free any time to pick up the family pieces.

I have a traditional view of family: H, W, children...all at home together. Not having that, not having control of the fate of that even, is hard to come to terms with.

I think you're right Starksy, I think I do need counselling. I have been told that there is a 6 month waiting list for NHS funded counselling. Privately funded counselling is expensive. I don't think I can afford it right now. Maybe my parents could help here. I am not au fait with the different kinds but I'm assuming you mean I go along to marriage counselling on my own?

I don't think I have been pursuing though. I think I've called her once in about the best part of two weeks, maybe texted once as well. I don't know if I NEED her, but I desperately WANT her. Not just because she is my W and I love her, but because she is the mother of my children and I want them to have the best start in life. However good a job she does alone, or we do co-parenting, it is never going to be a match for what could have been had we been happy and together as a family. I know clearly she wasn't happy but the frustrating thing is that if she had sat me down and gone through her issues with me, I would have taken them on board and done something about it.

Years ago I was hospitalised and told I couldn't drink any alcohol for six months. I didn't touch a drop. I'm not a big drinker anyway, even when I was younger, but the fact that it had to be done meant I did it. If she'd said X has to stop from now on, or could you do Y for me please, then I really would have took on board what she said. That is the most frustrating part - the things that are broken are easily fixable but she won't give me the chance to show her that.

I like the folk duo 'The Milk Carton Kids'. I'm on their mailing list and got an email last night announcing a new album and preview of a track. I listened to it but had to stop it half way through. My W and I went to see them about 18 months ago and every moment the song was on was just a reminder of that time. It hurts when I can't listen to music I like because it takes me to a happier time. This reminds me of a Nick Drake line:

Life is but a memory
Happened long ago
A theatre full of sadness
From a long forgotten show.

OK, now I'm crying.

[Starsky309]

If she'd said X has to stop from now on, or could you do Y for me please, then I really would have took on board what she said. That is the most frustrating part - the things that are broken are easily fixable but she won't give me the chance to show her that.

This ^^^ is what I'm talking about, Alpha. This ^^^ is unhealthy co-dependency. You don't make the self-improvements in your life for HER, you do them for YOU and for your kids, and to build yourself up into a much better partner for the next woman down the road. And if in so doing, it re-attracts your wife back? Well then, BONUS.

I guarantee you that your wife smells this fear and co-dependency, this "just tell me what to do, and I'll do it!!!" It's literally repulsive to her, I can assure you. She would much rather see a man that stands up for his own beliefs, passions and interests, and says "I'd still love for you to share these with me, but if not . . . I realize I'll be okay and the kids will be too and we've got a wonderful life."

THAT is where you want to get to.


Starsky

[twinmom]

If she'd said X has to stop from now on, or could you do Y for me please, then I really would have took on board what she said. That is the most frustrating part - the things that are broken are easily fixable but she won't give me the chance to show her that.

This ^^^ is what I'm talking about, Alpha. This ^^^ is unhealthy co-dependency. You don't make the self-improvements in your life for HER, you do them for YOU and for your kids, and to build yourself up into a much better partner for the next woman down the road. And if in so doing, it re-attracts your wife back? Well then, BONUS.

I guarantee you that your wife smells this fear and co-dependency, this "just tell me what to do, and I'll do it!!!" It's literally repulsive to her, I can assure you. She would much rather see a man that stands up for his own beliefs, passions and interests, and says "I'd still love for you to share these with me, but if not . . . I realize I'll be okay and the kids will be too and we've got a wonderful life."

THAT is where you want to get to.


Starsky

YEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I ventured into the dating world a little these past few months and I can tell you one thing. The guys that are falling all over themselves to send flowers, be available when I have an hour to meet up, text whenever and suddenly love whatever I say I do IRRITATE the crap out of me. Drop them so fast it will make your head spin.
Be true to yourself, but first FIND YOURSELF!

[alpha99]

Thank you starksy for your ever wise advice.

I googled co-dependency because I wasn't sure what it was. I bow to your superior knowledge in this area, I just feel I have a strong attachment to her because she is my wife and I love her. I agree that maybe this has been too strong and I have indulged in things and behavioural patterns for the purpose of pleasing her, not myself.

When you quoted my comments, I understand what you mean. I was never really aware of the things that she didn't like. OK, maybe I was with some of them but dismissed them. If I had been then I would have changed those things for her if they were things that I agreed were not desirable. I am now making those changes because I realise that they are not desirable traits in me. I dearly hope that my wife notices these changes and responds positively but if she doesn't then they will be there still for whoever comes along next. It is a paralyzing fear that my wife will end up in a proper relationship with someone else, I will too, and it will haunt both of us and our children for a lifetime.

[Starsky309]

When you quoted my comments, I understand what you mean. I was never really aware of the things that she didn't like. OK, maybe I was with some of them but dismissed them. If I had been then I would have changed those things for her if they were things that I agreed were not desirable. I am now making those changes because I realise that they are not desirable traits in me. I dearly hope that my wife notices these changes and responds positively but if she doesn't then they will be there still for whoever comes along next. It is a paralyzing fear that my wife will end up in a proper relationship with someone else, I will too, and it will haunt both of us and our children for a lifetime.

Alpha, as I've seen in MANY of your posts, INTELLECTUALLY I think you get it. That's the part in blue, and you have it precisely right.

But the part in red totally negates any intellectual or emotional progress you make on the first part, and snuffs it out with the second part. Learn to "LOSE THE FEAR," and you will have begun the successful part of your journey.

"Losing the fear" is THE hardest part of DBing, for most of us.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

Thank you starksy for your ever wise advice.

I googled co-dependency because I wasn't sure what it was. I bow to your superior knowledge in this area, I just feel I have a strong attachment to her because she is my wife and I love her. I agree that maybe this has been too strong and I have indulged in things and behavioural patterns for the purpose of pleasing her, not myself.

Alpha, instead of looking up "co-dependency" (altho, "Co-Dependent No More" is an excellent, definitive book on the subject and ALWAYS worth a read) try instead googling "enmeshed relationships." That may be a better place for you (and hopefully with the help of a good IC) to start.


Starsky

[alpha99]

Spot on as ever.

Intellectually I do understand what I need to do. Emotionally I am struggling to be capable of doing what is necessary. There are so many thoughts and feelings, those of guilt towards my children should I one day meet someone new (feels like they would be downgraded in importance in some way), those of regret that our marriage didn't work (should it not ultimately), fear of loneliness, and so many others.

I know I need to lose the fear. I know that. I have read so many times that it was only when someone truly let go that their spouse showed some attention. As I've written previously, if I saw more of my children properly then that would be easier. As it is, not seeing them very often at the moment, it is incredibly hard.

edit: I will look at the other type of relationship you mentioned starksy.

If anyone reading this could help, what specifically were the things that you changed for yourself?

I have changed my appearance, used deodorant, more consistent in dental care, had my teeth cleaned, bought glasses etc. These things are more superficial than personality changes. Those I'm trying to work on are: being more patient with people, using agreement rather than arguing and reason, becoming more independent and self confident, having a positive, non sarcastic outlook on life.

I am reading 5 love languages right now. Am I right to say that I should implement the findings from this at some future point should my wife come around to things. I guess at the moment trying to use her love language in our brief encounters and given that I'm trying to pull back and detach would be a bad idea. I guess I was thinking that pulling back but doing something positive when we did meet makes sense, but maybe I'm confusing myself.

[alpha99]

I should have added to the previous post that I guess it takes time for changes to be noticed by a spouse.

Other popular changes I read about are:

learning to speak in a soft voice.
be less critical of spouse.
other specific 180s dependent on the person.

any more?

[Starsky309]

I should have added to the previous post that I guess it takes time for changes to benoticed by a spouse.
come part of an individual's new behavior.

There. Fixed it for you.

[alpha99]

I had a dream last night...

I was at a fairground with my children. We were wandering around going on different rides. We settled on a little train ride cum slide that went round and round - an imaginary thing - not even a real ride. It went around and around and around. My children were so happy. They said 'I love you daddy.' I was so happy.

I woke up, realised it was a dream...I cried uncontrollably.

[alpha99]

Just had a call from my W.

It seemed slightly odd. She called to ask if I still wanted to take the children out tonight. She must surely know that I would. She said that D5 asked her to come along too. She is not sure whether she wants to or not. She asked me whether she should or not. I tried to validate her thoughts by saying 'that is up to you to decide. You can come if you want to but I can't make that decision for you.' She said she is going to let me know later.

I have been reading a lot about detachment. I feel I would do a far better job of it if I had more time with the children. Achieving that has to be my most immediate aim for once it is achieved I can focus on them more without feeling the total loss of not having my family near me very much.

GAL activties: I have joined a meet up group for my local area. They do lots of different activities (pub quizzes, meals out, cinema trips etc). They seem to be fairly active as there are meet ups every few days of some sort. I am going to try and integrate myself into the group little by little.

EDIT: Another thought springs to mind. The plan at the moment is for me to have the kids during tomorrow day time. My wife was originally meant to be coming along tonight because she doesn't trust me alone with the children at this point. Now she is contemplating whether to come or not. That must surely be a sign that she is starting to trust me. It also begs the question that if she was coming out tonight to see over the whole evening due to lack of trust, why would it be fine for me to have them alone tomorrow.

I'm confused now.

[Starsky309]

You're MINDREADING. You have no way of knowing what she's thinking, or what her agenda is. Do what's best for yourself and your kids.

[alpha99]

Hi Starksy,

I took heed of your comments about WANT and NEED yesterday. It really made me think. Although I bad a nightmare and woke up crying, I have been feeling better about the whole thing today. I know my emotions have changed wildly in a short space of time, but I do feel like I am slowly getting to grips with this.

What it boils down to is this:

* I want to save my marriage.
* I have zero control over that.
* There are things I can do to make myself better that may impact upon my sitch but they need to be done FOR ME.
* I must do what is right for my children.
* I must APPLY what I theoretically understand.
* If all efforts to save my marriage fail, ultimately life will go on and I will always be there for my children.
* I really do WANT to save my marriage.

[Luis P]

Hi Alpha

I understand how your feeling, but Starksy and everyone who wrote as I followed the thread is right and is tough to control the emotion but you need to think on yourself, you need to look at your wife not as the cake but as the frost that comes on top.

Important step which I see your getting in place is your children. I know perfectly well that your fear to let go and twin mom has said that you need to accept and let go and work on you. The feeling is there for your wife. This cannot go away, and I'm not saying what you should do, but giving you my opinion. You are a good father, you seem very clever, and you should just face this as it's over, do what's best for your children, and respect your wife and be kind to her. Maybe she will see the change but the change you must truly do this not as a tool to win her back but to learn and improve on yourself. I really see you took action and so many people out there they end a relationship and never work on themselves with the healing process.

One thing I would find maybe good is IC but this is if you would find it beneficial, and is not for you to do but you yourself should think if you need this. I have undertaken this and I found it helped along reading books from Michelle from the site.

I hope I was not offensive and I really as everyone on this site hope good to come out from all of this.

Have faith))

[Sotto]

Hi Alpha, just a few suggestions from me....

What it boils down to is this:

* I want to save my marriage.
* I have some control zero control over that.
*I have zero control over my W, but 100% control of me
* There are things I can do to make myself better that may impact upon my sitch but they need to be done FOR ME.
* I must do what is right for my children.
* I must APPLY what I theoretically understand, and learn to manage my emotions.
* If all efforts to save my marriage fail, ultimately life will go on and I will always be there for my children.
* I really do WANT to save my marriage - but recognise I will actually be okay either way.

If you keep a list like this as your mantra Alpha, I don't think you can go too far wrong...

T xx

[Luis P]

Hi Toots

That's actually good advise)) I couldn't have said this better)

[alpha99]

Hi Luis and Toots,

Thanks for your comments, amendments and suggestions.

I think a good sign that the changes I am making are for me alone is that I am continuing with them even when I know my W will not see the benefit of them; that is I continue to use deodorant or whatever it is even on days when I am not going to see her.

I was deliberating whether to write some control or zero control Toots, I chose the latter as a way of reminding myself that ultimately it is her choice whether to come back or not. I do have some control as you say in that way that I can control how I behave and respond to everything that is going on.

A big 'un for me is undoubtedly managing my emotions. I have been dismissive of emotions in the past (both my own and others) but this whole thing has opened up something deep in me. These days I don't feel thick skinned as I used to. I think that is a good thing. Being dismissive of others' emotions was clearly not a good thing. Now I am trying to take my feelings and those of other people into far more consideration. Part of 'lashing out' verbally in the past was that if someone had said something similar to me, I wouldn't care. Clearly my W is not me and this kind of thing hurt her considerably, as she seems to relish telling me at the moment. I don't blame her there - only myself for not having seen that sooner.

[Starsky309]

* I want to save my marriage.
* I have some control zero control over that.
*I have zero control over my W, but 100% control of me
* There are things I can do to make myself better that may impact upon my sitch but they need to be done FOR ME.
* I must do what is right for my children.
* I must APPLY what I theoretically understand, and learn to manage my emotions.
* If all efforts to save my marriage fail, ultimately life will go on and I will always be there for my children.
* I really do WANT to save my marriage - but recognise I will actually be okay either way.

Perfect.


Starsky

[alpha99]

Had a good time with the kids...spoilt by my wife.

Right from picking them up from school she was complaining. She didn't want to go bowling but didn't want me to go alone with the kids. The kids cried for her to come. She complained she didn't feel well but after ultimately coming along never mentioned the illness again.

I validated my heart out. She moaned and complained endlessly how hard it is for her, how she has spent so much money on the kids, how I should pay child maintenance despite her already getting child benefits. At this point I once or twice slipped into debating with her but each time I caught myself and stopped immediately. W wouldn't even come and stay in the same lane as I played bowling with the kids. She pulled faces, huffed and puffed at me throughout. This might sounded one sided and far fetched but you would really have to be there.

She wandered around alone about the arcade section.

When we were done we all played a few arcade games. She hardly interacted at all.
I mentioned seeing the children more and have them stay with me. She referred to the parenting plan email I sent by saying she doesn't have to deal with my demands. She continually referred to me as unstable as if I was some weirdo. I asked whenever have I ever hurt our children or put them in danger. Of course she said 'never' but is worried I wouldn't return the kids or that I'd keep them and try and take revenge on her in some way. She seems to have the need to run decisions past her parents, saying she'll have to speak to them before gives any answers.

OK, let's break out the crazy:

She took our living room TV with her when she took possessions a week or two ago. Remember the crazy conversation over that?

Well, apparently it has blown up. She accused me of putting water in the TV to cause it to blow up. Yes, seriously, she accused me of trying to electrocute her.
This is what we've come to.

So, if she unleashes 5-10 minutes of non stop venom at me, the whole world being my fault etc, and I say one thing to defend myself then all of a sudden I'm being 'nasty' and showing 'my true colours.

She can be quite cogent at times but at others it's like she's away with the fairies. I mentioned she owes me money. She initially said she wasnt going to pay it. Then she said she'd only pay for certain things. She said she has her own place now and can't pay bills for two houses. I pointed out since the mortgage is in her name she is oblidged to. Finally she relented.

Almost inevitably, given her mood swings, towards the end of the gathering things turned to our R. She acknowledged she handled things badly by having an affair. She said she felt no guilt or remorse. When I wouldn't accept I had driven her to have an A she disagreed vehemently...then said she shouldn't have gone about it that way...but said we weren't together...despite us being married and sleeping in the same bed, having children, and her giving oral sex.

At the end of the trip out I pointed out (mistakenly) how people overcome As, how feelings change over time, so on and so forth. I mixed this up by saying the sooner things were settled the better. She said what you mean. I stupidly said sooner I don't have to deal with you and we get D. This was the one main thing I regret from the evening. I retracted it a moment later, said I didn't want divorce. She wasn't interested. She said she'd made the right decision and couldn't get back together just because of our history and our kids. She said she couldnt imagine why I'd want to be with her after her having an affair. I said you know how I feel. I didn't say I love you at all.

I kept everything in check until the final few minutes. I didnt plead or beg etc but I did cry. Stupid I know. I said that however long it took, I hoped one day we could work things out. To sum her response up, she basically said she had no feelings for me, I'd destroyed them through my treatment of her, and she couldnt say 'one day' because it wouldn't be fair to give false hope.

The hardest part was the children were playing in her back garden, they wouldn't do as they were told by her - to go in the house - her phone was ringing, and she was shooing me out the back door like I was some unwanted dog. She literally had closed the door over to the last 30cms and said I have to go, I have to go. I said this is what we've come to after 10 years? I knocked the door with my hand as I said this, a light tap, in no way aggressive. She seized on this and said I was damaging the door and scaring her. Ridiculous.

I said I'd leave because she said the front door to the house was unlocked. I went to the front door just to say we shouldnt part like this. I can see how this seemed like pressuring or pursuing but I didn't want to leave on bad terms. We spoke briefly, said she had to go, and once again shut the door on me as she told me 'this is my house and I don't want you here'. I said fine, but we need to sort out when I can have the kids asap as this isn't fair. She said we would, she'd call me later, and confirmed that I'd get the kids tomorrow.

I left and cried alone for a moment or two. A few moments later I perked up quite a bit. I am learning to deal with this without becoming hysterical.

It is easier to deal with all this as the likelihood of things never working out increases. If I get to see my children on a regular basis I will be a happy man indeed. It is hard to have hope at a time like this but I do believe time can change perspectives. Unfortunately, with the MIL fueling the WAW syndrome the chances of reconciliation at this point seem to be zero.

My sadness comes from the apparent death of our R, and the fact that regardless of what my W says (kids won't ever be affected, will want for nothing) our children over time will feel this deeply. I will do whatever I can to make this as normal as possible for them but inevitably they will feel a hole in their upbringing. That is the thing I can't shake off as I am in part responsible for.something I would never want.

From this point on I plan to live 'as if' things are heading towards D, even if I will continue DBing to prevent that. This is for my own wellbeing. If I do truly detach alongside having regular time with the children each week, who knows what will happen. I don't see attempting dating etc for a long, long time...even post D should that happen, as I will maintain hope until circumstances no longer provide any.

[Starsky309]

Wow. Just . . . wow.

[Sotto]

"At the end of the trip out I pointed out (mistakenly) how people overcome As, how feelings change over time, so on and so forth. I mixed this up by saying the sooner things were settled the better. She said what you mean. I stupidly said sooner I don't have to deal with you and we get D. This was the one main thing I regret from the evening. I retracted it a moment later, said I didn't want divorce."

"I kept everything in check until the final few minutes. I didnt plead or beg etc but I did cry. Stupid I know. I said that however long it took, I hoped one day we could work things out. To sum her response up, she basically said she had no feelings for me, I'd destroyed them through my treatment of her, and she couldnt say 'one day' because it wouldn't be fair to give false hope"

Sorry it was a difficult evening Alpha. So the two examples above are where you backslid. Areas like these are to be avoided at all costs. If you find yourself straying towards R talk, or being drawn into R talk, just don't go there. Your W isn't in a receptive place at all right now and will just give you no hope.

This is the important thing about managing your emotions, so you don't make these mistakes again my friend. So, you acknowledge you need to keep yourself in check - and sounds like you mostly did. But recognise the danger points. Maybe when you are about to part and so on - and handle those differently.

Hope you have a good weekend :-)

[alpha99]

I'm intrigued Starksy...are you in disbelief at me, my wife, or both of us?

I believe I handled things really well for the vast majority of the time this evening. I let myself down slightly at the end. We all have our own unique elements to each sitch but I do see my W as special with regard to just how off the scale her logic, decision making, and all round sense of reality can be at the moment.

[Starsky309]

Mostly your wife (I mean, she just doesn't sound . . . well), but the two of your interactions with each other are frequently toxic. As Toots wisely advises (and we've all been over this repeatedly), you've GOT to avoid these at all costs.

How much of this did the kids overhear/see?


Starsky

[alpha99]

Thanks Toots,

You're spot on. As you know I've struggled to avoid R talks or keep emotions in check at times. I did a lot better this time but still backslid at those moments you pointed out.

I think my next coaching session is in order.

If I'm looking for some glimmer of hope, I believe once W fully settles in to her house, combined with fair childming arrangements, her current 'craziness' may begin to subside and then we can more regular, cordial interactions, and maybe at that point make.some progress. I'm not holding my breath though.

[alpha99]

My W wouldn't stop talking in the car whilst kids were there. She swore at me at one point. I asked her not to in front of kids. I only validated what she said in front of kids. At McDonald's after bowling she, for the first time, and knowing her probably absent mindedly, began to talk about A in front of kids. Back at her house the kids didn't see anything - they were either playing in the big garden or had gone into the house.

I'm acutely aware of how this might affect them. W claims she has their best interests at heart but repeatedly ignores them, shouts at them unfairly etc.

Haha I recounted pretty much my long post verbally to my father earlier...he said the same thing - 'wow, what's up with her? She's gone off her rocker...or words to that effect. It isn't half disheartening when she not only has lost her love for me but seemingly her mind too.

[Sotto]

That's good. But you need to recognise that the backslides can pretty much 'undo' other positive progress that you may be making. This is why we are focusing on the emotional control so much right now.

Above all else, seek to achieve pleasant neighbourly interactions with your W without the emotional backsliding. Maybe this is a goal for your next meet up - get that consistent approach throughout the meet up. Not for most of if and then you crash.

If you find yourself about to say something, clap your hand over your mouth if needs be. Or jump up and say - I just remembered something! And go make a phone call or something. Whatever strategies will work to stop you from doing this. And when you feel it coming on, switch to intellect/business and use your strategy.

In terms of how W might be once she settles - who knows? But if you can be steady in the face of her behaviour, that is a triumph in itself. So, maybe don't hope that she will change, hope that you will manage to change yourself...

[alpha99]

Sage advice toots.

I suppose I am changing. Not so long ago I would not have withstood such a tongue lashing from her without resorting to being verbally nasty back at her. I didn't do that this time and now I think about that, that's a massive 180 on my part.

I understand wiping out gains through last minute backsliding. In the face of intense anger and bitterness from W I am getting better - but until I cut out the tears and reasoning with her then it's not good enough. Next encounter should be tomorrow morning and should be brief. No chance of R talk, and no desire from me to do so anyway.

[twinmom]

Suggestion.......
Every time your wife says something that tempts you to cry/defend/rationalize with her jump up and go to the bathroom.
Wash your hands for a full minute squeezing the soap between your hands to release tension.

Then go back to her, apologize for having a bladder the size of a pea and go on with whatever you were doing with a renewed sense of calm.

[alpha99]

Good tip twinmom.

I think now I'm at a point where realisation has set in. It really has to be LRT fully implemented through through short, upbeat exchanges. As soon as a kids timetable gets sorted (hopefully the next day or so) I can work on this. Any extended time with her now is toxic. She is no longer the women I married. I think time and distance for a while are the best things.

[alpha99]

A quick question to those following my sitch here:

In all your time and experience here on these boards have you ever known a H and W reconcile (or get to piecing at least) after being in such a position as I am now?

Please answer honestly (I know you all would). I guess I'm just looking for a breadcrumb of hope. As I wrote earlier, the penny has dropped and things seem grim right now. I have strength to carry on but knowing others (not just further on towards divorce, having filed etc, but rather facing the toxicity of my W right now, her anger, mistrust, and bitterness) had overcome such a sitch would provide a ray of sunshine.

[alpha99]

Just to add: W mentioned at one point yesterday how her and OM are 'best friends'. She said A wasn't planned, friendship turned PA. He showed interest when she felt low due to our R. After her recent proclamations they don't speak and he's a user, this would seem to be closer to the truth.

I texted to confirm child plans for today a few minutes ago. W called back. We agreed to get on and be friendlier to each other. I am having the kids all day today and overnight. She mentioned how a separated friend at school went to court and the father got 4 hours visitation every other Saturday. Deep down she can still understand I am and have always been a great father to our children. She tried to bring up trust issues but I squashed them and said that's in the past, let's focus on getting on from now on. She still dragged out the BS but ultimately agreed.

One other thing she mentioned was taking the kids on holiday. She says she hasn't got much money now (there's a surprise) and so needs to sell the house ASAP. I acknowledged that and said that going on a 'normal' holiday is up to her of course but if she wanted to take the kids on a once in a lifetime holiday (we've always talked about Disneyland, Florida) then I'd like to go as a family. She said things are too raw now. I agreed. But I said you ain't planning on going this year though are you? She said no, so in the future when things settle down, yes, I (she) understands why I'd want to and agrees.

It seems after every horrible day follows a slightly better one. I shall continue DBing. I've read most of 5LLs now. I think (from what I've read so far) that words of affirmation and quality time are her main two love languages. So that leaves me in a pickle right now as we haven't been getting on and we haven't been spending time with each other much hahaha. I guess that's something for later down the line.

[Sotto]

Hi Alpha, yes people reconcile from worse places than you are now - but normally before people get there, things can get pretty dire seeming.

MWD helpfully sets out the things to definitely avoid - R talks, crying, begging, pleading - which all can lead to D.

So, the wrong things to do are pretty clear. The right things are harder to gauge.

Have you read about the Stockdale Paradox? Mozza posted about that and it has helped me. The concept is to have faith that things will ultimately work out well, and engage in the brutal reality of now. And that's the paradox.

[DaddyLongShanks]

Just to add: W mentioned at one point yesterday how her and OM are 'best friends'. She said A wasn't planned, friendship turned PA. He showed interest when she felt low due to our R. After her recent proclamations they don't speak and he's a user, this would seem to be closer to the truth.

I texted to confirm child plans for today a few minutes ago. W called back. We agreed to get on and be friendlier to each other. I am having the kids all day today and overnight. She mentioned how a separated friend at school went to court and the father got 4 hours visitation every other Saturday. Deep down she can still understand I am and have always been a great father to our children. She tried to bring up trust issues but I squashed them and said that's in the past, let's focus on getting on from now on. She still dragged out the BS but ultimately agreed.

One other thing she mentioned was taking the kids on holiday. She says she hasn't got much money now (there's a surprise) and so needs to sell the house ASAP. I acknowledged that and said that going on a 'normal' holiday is up to her of course but if she wanted to take the kids on a once in a lifetime holiday (we've always talked about Disneyland, Florida) then I'd like to go as a family. She said things are too raw now. I agreed. But I said you ain't planning on going this year though are you? She said no, so in the future when things settle down, yes, I (she) understands why I'd want to and agrees.

It seems after every horrible day follows a slightly better one. I shall continue DBing and 'connecting through yes'. I've read most of 5LLs now. I think (from what I've read so far) that words of affirmation and quality time are her main two love languages. So that leaves me in a pickle right now as we haven't been getting on and we haven't been spending time with each other much hahaha. I guess that's something for later down the line.

You are not a family. Your former wife is "best friends" with another male. What room does that leave you? She sleeps with him. Betrays you with him, priorities him over you.

[T384]

Alpha -


Please Excuse me if this has already been brought up but why are you talking about OM with your W??

My H never talked about OW. It was as if she didn'texist. However when he showed up to our boys basketball practice driving a car that wasn't his (I knew it was hers). I said who's car is that... He started mumbling that it was a car that belonged to a guy at the shop. I cut him off raised my hand in the air and said - H we both know that's not true. Don't insult my intelligence I made the boys get in the car and told them to say bye to their dad and we left.

That never happened again...

I think you're engaging her too much.. She knows she has you on the hook. Where's the Alpha that's independent? Confident? Won't take his W talking to him about another man she's sleeping with??

And yes - I personally had an H that was terrible during S. And here we are. So it is possible but you need to work on yourself before you can have a healthy R.

Youve got to look at yourself and ask yourself what you really want?

[alpha99]

Toots) Thanks for giving me a new perspective. Sometimes seeing things written down concisely helps them sink in. I have researched the Stockdale paradox after your post. I see it in my case as having faith things will ultimately work out even if that means in the meantime that W continues with OM, we sell our house, and things continue to look grim. Instead of sitting around waiting for something to happen I am working on myself - clothes, gym, unfavourable personality traits, GAL - and having no expectations.

T0324). Thanks for the insight. I have tried to gleam info from your thread since things appear to have worked out for you. My W hasn't ever spoken in the sense of 'OM and I went to the cinema last night' or 'we are doing X tonight.' She speaks in the past tense regarding the affair but as I noted in a recent post she did use the present tense to describe 'their friendship.'

However I believe you're right, I am engaging in conversation too much with her, particularly regarding OM...

What a difference a day makes! I had the children yesterday and overnight and now I feel a million times better. If I get them a few times a week it is going to change my mood and viewpoint completely. In one day with them I realised something: I don't need my wife but I do NEED my children.

They had a FANTASTIC day with me. We went to the cinema, the park, played games at the house, and then went out for tea, and then played more games. I gave them my FULL attention. My wife appears to be spoiling them with treats and presents at the moment whereas I spoil them with attention.

I believe I am now truly in a position to detach. That may seem a quick turnaround from recent days of crying and doing the wrong things, but those negative things won't happen again. The reason? My children.

For the best part of 2 months I haven't spent a full day or night with them. Now that I have I see that they are more.important than anything. I would like to work things out with my wife but now the feeling of having my family stolen from me is fading as I spend time with the kids, my desperation, and therefore the habit of getting things wrong, the inability to control emotions, is also going to fade. I am in a much better place to pull back, get on with my life, and see what happens. I've read so many times that this is THE ONLY thing you can do at this point.

Again and again I've read I can't control my W, only myself. Although intellectually I've understood that, now I GET IT at a gut level. I have a tinge of sadness still that our family is split now but it's no longer the all conquering thought in my mind. Rather I know I am a great dad, a good person (who plans on becoming a great person), and I will make someone happy in the future. I do hope that's my wife but if not, since I can't make her love me, then I know now I could live with that.

oh, as I've been writing this from my mobile my W has texted saying 'thanks for dropping the kids off on time. Hope they had a good time'

Should I reply saying 'they did' or something similarly short, or just ignore it. My heart says reply but my head is saying just leave it. At this point I'm going to leave it. What do you think?

[Sotto]

I would say leave it...

Good for you with the perspective. BTW - your W still sounds pretty enmeshed with OM. I would treat it as very much an ongoing R on her part if she's talking about 'friendship' in the present sense...

Glad you had a great day with your kids!

[alpha99]

My W has just called three times in quick succession. I ignored all three calls. Now she has just texted saying 'call me please'

what do you think I should do? She is at work later and so it could just be an inquiry as to whether I'd mind the kids. She could text to ask that though, surely?

I've been reading on various threads (with the advice mostly coming from starksy) about maintaining intel on W without revealing the source. I decided to check her youtube history again - she has been looking at a lot of strange sexual content recently (huge p*nis, threesomes etc). The main thing that stands out however is that she has been looking at a specific car (honda of some type). This was about 9-10pm last night, so probably after she had finished work. My W doesn't drive and knows nothing about cars. OM apparently has a clapped out old car and (mind reading, I know) so it could be they were together and discussing him getting a new one.

she has just texted again this second saying 'important'

I don't want to seem available all the time. I guess if it was important she could text what it was that is so important.

edit: she just called my mobile again - I ignored it. Then the house phone went (probably her too) - I ignored it.

Any suggestions on what to say when I do speak to her? She is going to ask why I didn't answer. I could say I was busy. When she asks doing what should I answer vaguely (I've been out, I was busy etc) or say none of your business, or something else?

[alpha99]

now a voicemail: Hiya Alpha, could you give me a call back as soon as you can please, it's important, thank you, bye.

She sounds subdued in her tone of voice. I can vaguely hear the kids in the background so I don't think they are in any serious trouble. Why not just say what is so important in the voicemail? I haven't returned her calls yet. I'm wondering what to do...wait a bit (a few hours etc), ignore her completely until she is more specific, or something else.

edit: I'm wondering whether when i do response if I should text 'what's the matter?' etc or call.

[alpha99]

in total: 10 missed calls, 1 voicemail, 2 texts - with the latest a few moments ago saying 'answer your phone very important'

[Luis P]

Hi Alpha

If she calls again just suggest you have been busy, remember your objective to try and detach yourself, be intellectual and see if this relates for you to see your children at a convenient time for you and them.

[Sotto]

Alpha, you need to respond. If your W has the kids and is trying this hard to contact you, get back to her asap!

And don't say none of your business, just say you were busy or phone was on silent or similar. Ignoring to this extent isn't the right way to go, especially if she is saying it is important....

[alpha99]

I've just called her back.

It was as expected, nothing 'important' - she wanted me to mind the kids as she need to go to work.

Her parents go out on a Sunday evening for a few drinks to the local social club. They hadn't realised that W was at work this afternoon. They won't mind the kids because they say they are not her babysitters. W was asking if I could mind them and acknowledged that it was last minute. I said 'yeah, it is last minute. I am not an on call babysitter. This is the exact reason why we need to have proper days in place so that this kind of thing doesn't happen.

W agreed. Then she tried to guilt me into taking the kids by saying S6 wants to spend time with his daddy. He has been asking to spend time with with you (me) again. I was having none of it. I won't be guilt tripped into minding them just to suit my W's work schedule. She complained that she earns double time on a Sunday and would have to call in and say she couldn't come.

**She has just called back as I wrote the last paragraph. She started off in a overly nice manner with an apology:

W:I'm sorry for calling last minute. It was wrong of me to do that. We do need to sort out proper days etc so we each have the kids. Can you send me a message later about what days you want to have them?

M: Yeah, sure, no problem. That will stop this kind of thing happening again.

W: Yeah, it's just...I'm struggling now. I have to go to work and no one can mind the kids. I'm on double time today. Can't you just have them and help me out? I'll pick them up later and everything.

M: So I'll send you a message about what days I would like to have them later on then and we'll sort that out.

(W getting angry now)

W: Why are you ignoring me?

M: I'm not ignoring you, I heard what you said. I just can't take the kids now as it's too short notice. We need to sort out the days we're each going to have them.

(W becoming angrier and sarcastic)

W: Yeah, right, hmmm OK, well thanks, grrr, bye.

M: See you, bye now.

It felt good to be in control for a few moments. I'd normally jump at any opportunity to spend time with my kids but I guess the longer I am the on call babysitter the less need there is for my W to decide on any sort of child sharing arrangement.

This might be the first time that she is starting to feel the consequences of her actions - I hope so anyway

[Sotto]

Well that's good. Glad things are ok. And I think you are right not to drop everything and to press for an agreed parenting schedule, so this kind of thing doesn't happen.

Your W will be cross, but just stick to that line. You may want to have a look at HP (H Poirot's thread.) He stopped posting a couple of months ago, but had lots of issues with last minute schedule changes from his W.

I do think you need to carefully gauge the non-response thing - esp. if your W has the kids. Remember you are trying to rebuild some confidence in your reliability and stability. I don't think ignoring loads of calls does that. I agree you shouldn't be endlessly available, and should wait a bit to respond, and not respond to everything. But you don't want to take that too far when you have kids - JMHO.

Have a good day.....:-)

[alpha99]

Thanks toots for your helpful comments.

I did say that my phone had been on silent hence why I didn't answer the calls. W was fine with that.

she has actually just called back yet again. This time in a very narky manner saying how it's not fair, I'm messing her about, she's going to lose X amount in wages etc.

I was calm and clear throughout. I said I can't be an on call babysitter. You have given me less than one hour's notice.

She then said she would have to let the kids go to one of her friends from the school. This women is hopeless with her own child. In fact, in the 18 months we've known her she has lost her own child at school on two occasions. I said, if you have so little respect for our children that you're going to leave them with XXX then God help us all.

W said she wouldn't do that (errr what did she just say a moment ago?) and that she would have to call in work. She ended with a stream of this is not fair, you're only doing this to make me suffer, S6 has been asking to spend time with you and you won't let him etc.

I reiterated it was last minute and also said that I had plans. She said that's all you had to say. I said, OK, well see you soon, bye.

I think the fall out from this will be that she is very angry over the next day or two, and no doubt if I see her parents again they'll chime in with you should be doing this and you should be doing that, it's very for our D and you're not helping at all, but ultimately I think this is going to mean that we get a childcare plan in place. That will be a start.

Edit: just to add, this is the first time that I've really put my foot down on something. I think only a short time ago I would have rushed up there straight away to try and be helpful, without realising that I'm just being a doormat for her. It feels good to know that I can be strong, independent, and do what's right. This is definitely a turning point. I am no longer in shock mode, no longer infatuated with the idea of getting her back and responding in an emotional manner. I feel like that has lifted. I want things to work out, I really, really do, but I'm not held hostage by the idea that they won't anymore.

[Luis P]

Hi Alpha,

Its good that your starting to put your foot down, and hopefully a child plan to start.

[alpha99]

W called again. I decided to answer first time as I've done enough letting it ring out for one day.

She wanted to drop the kids off with me at 6.30am or so tomorrow so she can go to work. She says she hasn't yet looked at my proposed plan for childcare. I said I could help out as a one off but she seemed to understand I wasn't keen on it (I'm not, I'd rather have a plan) and so ultimately she said she'd leave it. Due to this she will have to pay for the kids to go to breakfast club and afterschool club at school. Again, I can't be the last minute, on call, save the day kind of guy. I hope this stance is helping her to feel the consequences of her choices as it will inconvenience her having to travel to and from school as well as cost her to pay for 2 children in the various clubs a few times a week.

Update: I wrote the above earlier but didn't post it. Since then W has replied to my email saying 'that sounds fine.'

Result! We have a parenting plan in place, something written down, agreed upon, and stored safely. I know it's not legally binding but should she try and pull a fast one later down the line then at least I can say you didn't mind me looking after them at X moment, look!

Due to the arrangements made, this in theory means I should only see my W twice a week at weekends when we exchange children. That's going to make detaching and implementing LRT fully a whole lot easier.

Finally, a little tip: anyone looking to GAL should check out ... I've joined a few groups and should I desire to I could be doing something 3-5 times a week, meeting new people and making friends in the process. Locally there's pub quizzes, an easter night out planned, cinema trips, walking meet ups, museum tours, even a comedy group etc. Some of the people involved seem to be my age so I am going to dive into it and see what happens. A sure sign of change. As I've posted before, I have about 3-4 friends who I rarely see and it's been that way now for the last 7-8 years when we used to go out 'slightly' more frequently. I think Starksy's post on codependency and enmeshed relationship with W could be coming into play here. I'm quite proud of myself. I feel myself growing in confidence, ability. Whatever happens with my W, I am FINALLY ready to do what I've never really done - LIVE MY LIFE TO THE FULL!

[twinmom]

Congrats on the parenting plan! I am soooooooooooooooo happy/proud of you!

[alpha99]

Thanks twinmom,

You have been the main driving force in pushing me to get a parenting plan in place - and now I have.

I'd like to thank all of you (you all know who you are) for your invaluable continued support throughout my threads regarding my sitch. This place has given me hope and strength to get through the really bad days.

I am feeling better day by day over the last few days. I read a bit in DR I hadn't before about thought stop. When I think of my W and/or her A I do try to 'shut it off' straight away. I'm not totally successful but I am cutting down the time I spend dwelling on things.

So what next? It's LRT time. For me that implies not initiating contact unless urgent regarding kids, being upbeat and happy in W's presence, using my free time to improve myself (in terms of physical appearance and personality), and GAL.

Is there anything else I should/shouldn't be doing?

[alpha99]

W just called, I answered.

What ensued was five minutes of BS from her.

We arranged to have the kids on certain days. I don't know how much thought she had given it (knowing her, probably a quick glance at the email) but suddenly, a matter of hours later, it no longer suits her.

Basically she wants me to have them tonight when it was agreed she would have them. She has complained that I was picking them up/dropping them off from her mums a few weeks ago and now that I'm not it is messing her and her work about.

I said 'we're separated. This is why we agreed to have them on set days.'

She countered by saying 'well, that's not set in stone.' She went on to talk nonsense: her mum has invited them up for tea but she wants me to have the kids and drop them off after tea, and I could have them tonight if I wanted to. Does any of that make sense? I think not.

I think from what she was saying that it's clearly the case that she now has plans to go out tonight and wants to dump the kids on me to suit herself. I stuck to the 'this is what we agreed' line. She said she is not sticking to any of it and slammed the phone down.

A minute or two later she called back up: 'This is not going to work is it? I thought we could be friendly and amicable (read: do what I want you to do) but you're just being awkward. Nothing is set in stone.

M: I agree, nothing it set in stone. However, you can't ring me up again and again with hardly any notice to swap and change the days about to suit yourself, and each time I don't do whatever you like all of a sudden I'm the nasty one. We need to compromise.

W: (sarcastically) yeah, hmmm, compromise.

She then complained it was messing her work about and each time she had to take them to school she couldn't get to work on time. I told her that I'm sorry about that but we're separated and when she has them she will have to make her own arrangements because that's not my problem. She continued: you'll get your three days but when I have them I just won't ask you for anything and I won't contact you at all.

I said: OK, that's fine.

She huffed and puffed and then signed off with a narky 'bye'.

I am getting so much better at this. Caving in and being nice would only have lead to her thinking she can call on me whenever she wants to and I will jump to attention. I'm having to live with her being somewhat angry, retaliatory, narky, acting like a child to get her own way etc, but hopefully in the medium term this is going to grant me some respect that I'm not just a pushover.

I dread to think what she might be up to tonight. It's probably best not to go there. Isn't it crazy though how two people who met and fell in love, got married and had children, bought a house together and shared many a good time, can end up in this position. I am setting boundaries and I'm doing the lovingly detached thing but I of course wish none of this was happening. It really is like she has become possessed or something. It is hard when she makes demands and threats but what I'm coming to realise is that she is full of it. I'm calling her bluff. If she wants to go down the legal custody route she will end up in a position where she has them all the time and she'll never be able to do anything because she'll always have the kids. Now I know that I have the power. She can threaten me all she wants but right now I have the power to bargain for what I want.

[alpha99]

I've been thinking how stopping all pursuit is so important. I would have to take everything my W has said with a pinch of salt but as I continued to pursue, beg, plead, reason, cry, threaten etc she has slipped further and further away. It went like this:

day or two after BD: We will probably get back together...There's a small chance but I don't want to give you any false hope.

a week or two later: I don't know if we'll ever get back together...

a few weeks later: I don't think we'll ever get back together...

recently: We are never getting back together...

Now, I have to stop the damage. To do that I have to stop pursuing, which I have done. Now I hope I'm able to reverse the momentum and start to attract her back towards me. This may be by doing nothing, by pulling back, by appearing confident etc around her. But I'm just pointing out for my own sake as much as anybody else's who is reading this that the sooner we stop pursuing the better.

There is a story in DR in the expect the impossible section where the H says he would have been much further along if he had given W the space she asked for at the beginning. I do feel if I had done that W may not have even moved out. No point dwelling on that right now but there you go - STOP PURSUING!!!

[alpha99]

Another post, another message from W.

W has replied again to my original parenting email to say:

'Yes your right we will stick to this rota.'

Just the first true example of her not getting her own way. I feel quite empowered at the moment. Whether things work out or not, I know that I can see my children and that I can be strong, independent, and be HAPPY!

On a side note, not that it matters, rather than some realisation that this kind of plan is a good thing, I think the more likely scenario is that my W has made plans to just do X tomorrow instead. Still, that's not my concern right now. Tomorrow I will be busy playing air hockey with my children, reading books with them, watching TV, and generally loving the hell out of them!

[alpha99]

Well, I have just been out for a walk. Whilst I'm out, you guessed it, W gets in touch...this time via text.

She says: 'we need to get on for sake of kids.. we will stick to that rota!'

Talk about being all over the place. A few hours ago she wasn't going to stick to anything, and now we have the complete reversal of that.

At least agreeing to have this plan in place should take the sting out of all our child caring talk and interactions recently. I haven't replied to either her text or email.

[Starsky309]

What's a rota?

[alpha99]

a schedule, timetable, that sort of thing. You have a work rota, the days you're in, off etc.

[Starsky309]

Oh, ok. Never heard that term before.

[zew]

Starsky - a rotation

[alpha99]

Just had a missed call from W at 6.15pm. At this point I imagine she'd be back in her place if she had indeed gone her parents' house for tea. So, I wonder why she is calling me? Hmm going off recent history, it would have to be to see if I could taxi her/the kids around from A to B to suit her. That won't be happening. I.won't be answering any calls from her this evening. I await the 'heartfelt' text or email from her proclaiming its importance.

Ha. She called again as I wrote that last sentence. Sorry love, I'm busy GAL tonight haha

[twinmom]

Just make sure to send a text later to acknowledge the calls and verify that the kids are not sick/hurt.

[alpha99]

Good point. I'm going out in a bit. Providing she doesn't call/text/leave voice mail to say it's important, I will text her later this evening when I come back in to acknowledge her messages and see what she wants.

[Sotto]

I agree with Twin. You need to get the right balance with the responding. Don't make it into a power struggle and be a dork about it. All you are doing is leading a busy life, and you aren't always glued to your phone.

But I agree, the kids are all important. And if you have had a call - you can always drop your W a quick text to see what she wanted.

[alpha99]

I texted W back to see what she wanted. She called and called but I texted to say I'm going out. She called several times and then texted to say she's had a change of mind over childcare arrangements. Apparently she trusts me to have the kids three nights a week but not two nights because she knows what I'm up to and it won't work.

Talk about paranoid. My guess is she has had a talking to by her mum who has warned her against giving too much away in case it jeopardizes future custody arrangements. From my side I just want to see my children.

In other news, my intel tells me W joined a dating site a few weeks ago. I don't think anything has come from it yet but it shows where her mind is at. The funny thing is I'm not that surprised or bothered by it. Is that a rebound relationship I see coming haha. Maybe that does mean A is over - who knows?

Edit: I called her out over the trust issue by saying if I can be trusted two days a week, what's the problem with three days? After replying instantly to every other message, funnily enough she hasn't responded straight away this time.

[alpha99]

Wow, what a mad evening.

I went out, came back, and had several missed calls and a text from W. She wants to renage on our agreement. It turns out she has had family legal advice again. We had a back and forth via text about whether it should be two or three days, both giving our reasons.

I called her thinking it would be easier to speak on the phone. When she rolls out the BS I called her out on it. She put the phone down on me. I tried calling back a few times before sending a text to say she was being childish and we need to discuss this.

Enter the dragon: MIL calls me. I didn't answer. I've got wise to what's coming, a crazy lady ranting - no thanks. So she texts me accusing me of harrassing her daughter.

Let's do the maths:

W called me 17 times today.
I called her 6 (including problems with the line, her putting the phone down/me calling back).

I reply to MIL saying pretty much that and ask her not to text or call me, nice and calmly in a matter of fact kind of way. She replies back saying she'll text me whenever she likes, me and W are over, all her family are around her now.

Unbelievable. We have never got on. Given the chance MIL will control every aspect of W's life. MIL wanted to pick our mortgage when we bought our house, wanted to pick how we decorated, wanted W to work near her house so she could stay over at MIL's. Because I had none of it she took a dislike to me. She showed signs of being nice recently but clearly that was an act. Unfortunately my W is indecisive by nature and hugely swayed by other people, particularly her mum.

I fear things are about to get a lot worse. I could temper things by agreeing to two days a week. W did say in one message we'll see in a few months time about changing.things. The thing I don't get is that she complains she has no free time but won't let me have them. It is definitely not about trust, that is a ruse. It is about her being strongarmed by her mum to protect her legal rights. They must be scared of giving away too much.

Considering all the events of this evening I don't feel so bad. I've been the gym, set a new PB, and now I'm pretty tired. With MIL hell bent on waging war I do see it being difficult for W to gain clarity and/or to reconsider things given any length of time.

I have had a shift in mood the last few days though. I've written before: I love my W, I want things to work out, but as I come to accept it may not, and given the circumstances are stacking up against me, I am more and more able to detach, think of myself, think of my children, and what will be will be.

Does anyone have any advice given what's gone on. I'm sure the legal route would go.against me. Should I accept two days a week and hope W's inability to look after kids properly means she extends things over the short period?

Any sort of R between us seems light years away now. Dating websites, family 'army' backing W up, no desire on her part to work on things, apparent mistrust of me, using the children in game.playing. Wow, how did we ever get here?

[alpha99]

Oh, just to add: at one point during call W said she doesn't want to speak to me at all because everything I do and say annoys her. She also said I was upsetting her on the phone. BS. Another ruse to fend off her illogical mad cap rants

[twinmom]

Why would the legal route "go against you"?

Consult a lawyer ASAP!!!

I am not in the UK but there are lots of people on this site who are. I don't remember any one of them speaking like this.

(Ok this is serious advice but do whatever you want with it)

Go get a job at McDonald's on the days your not with the kids and use every penny (or whatever currency is called) to hire a lawyer.

Do NOT speak to your wife about it, just go do it. Then have your lawyer draft a letter to your wife stating what days you will have the kids and if there are any disagreements you will be happy to peruse legal action, including kidnapping charges.

[mvgfwd2]

Like has been said plenty of times. The children agreement is key. And sticking to it. However, if she gives you one of her days and you are free, I would take that as a bonus and have the children over. Document every instance. Also, she may ask to trade days, you don't have to if you don't want. Just say you already have plans with the kids or on the off day. Document everything for possible need in a crazy custody battle.

I hear what you say about the MIL. My MIL, SIL, and BIL were the same way. It wasn't until I ended their communication did my W see the poison they were filling her head with.

[T384]

Alpha

I think it's time to start speaking with action and not words. Get a L protect yourself and your kids.

[Luis P]

Hi Alpha

Look at this site gingerbread, they are extremely good legal children support line where you can get all free advise on steps you can get.

However, I would take twin moms advice and start building your ammunition and present to your wife a legal draft so no MIL or anybody can start changing or let's say abuse with schedule between your children and you.

[alpha99]

Thanks for all your advice. I am going to finally seek legal advice in the next day or two and will contact the Gingerbread line.

W left voicemail on phone as I woke up this morning. She also called me. Her plan has changed. Now apparently the kids are disruptive for her due to their time spent with me. BS. It's simple to understand what's going on here: I am a great dad and the kids had a great time due to me giving them my full attention. W doesn't do that. The kids will have gone 'home' to her and have been sidelined whilst she played on her phone or something similar. My S6 in particular has very likely said I want my daddy.

It may sound one sided here but the absolute truth is that I have always been the one to dote on the kids whilst my W has struggled to be a good mum. Now I'm not there it is of course more difficult for her. The whole thing is a joke. I had FIL come on the phone and accuse me of spoiling the kids rotten. Ironic given I make them drink water, don't ply them with sweets, spend time on things like playing in the park, playing games at home, and certainly don't spoil them rotten. Our children are noted for their manners and excellent behaviour, due in large part to how I have ensured they have been brought up. W on the other hand post S has gone mad buying toys, presents, football cards, computer games etc for them. Other people have noted the kids' standard of behaviour dropping as they spend more time away from me. Due to family arguments for which I am now getting all the blame, MIL and FIL didn't see our children for about 4 years. They don't know what went on in that time but of course have been given a highly biased version of events by W.

Gaining more info on her motives as the anger rages out of her. She fears if she agrees to X amount of nights then I won't have to pay child maintenance and I'll try and steal her other child related government benefits. Unfortunately the whole family (W, MIL, FIL) seem to have gone crazy.

When I pointed out that our mortgage is due tomorrow and another bill for which W owes half, she said she wasn't going to pay and shouted off the phone to FIL I'm demanding money from her. I could hear him ranting off the phone that they'll go to court if I want to be nasty. They're so enraged they can't make sense of anything. It's like if I said 'Do you like apple's?' They would reply along the lines of 'why are you bullying me into eating poisonous fruit?' Crazy!!!!

The good thing is I am calm and detached. Feelings for my W are a long way from the surface now.

[alpha99]

I think we are nearing the end of this thread. Let's hope the next one brings a turn around in fortune for me

For the first time I have looked into child maintenance payments that I potentially may have to make should W claim for them. Because I work at home and at the moment my income is quite low, I would potentially only have to pay under £10/week to her. I feel so much better for having checked that out. My wife has nothing on me really now. That was a big worry, that I would be burdened by this for the next ten years or more. Don't get me wrong, I want to provide for my children and give them everything they need. I just don't see how giving any money to my W when she is notoriously bad with handling money; most of it would go on clothes, make up, nights out etc, would be beneficial to the children at all. I'd much rather have the money myself and make full use of it in my own time with the children.

Since I am living with my parents now and have no real bills to pay, I will be fine financially. Once the house is sold I will have plenty of money as a back up for a rainy day. Apart from divorcing and selling the house (if that happens then I have a legal right to half the money from the house sale) then that only leaves access to the children. We seem to have agreed two days for me with a third time each week just being pick them up from school and give them tea before returning them. I think I need to look at the bigger picture here: W just will not be able to cope with her finances, believe me, she is pathologically inclined to spend money, that she won't be able to live the fantasy lifestyle she must have envisaged upon deciding to leave, and so that will leave her being tied down to her house and unable to do much. Well, I can see in the not too distant future, whatever her crazy demands now, that I do indeed help out and have the kids more. I will do this on a basis that suits me and the children of course.

She is acting like she has gone temporarily insane.