I find it odd, as the day/evening progresses Tabby seems to become a little "warmer" (not HUGE change, more like iceberg to ice cube), and yet when she gets up, she's like ice. Wonder if the nights give her time to think, once the kids are in bed, and as she gets ready for bed a few hrs later? Tosses around a bit more in bed. Last night, I get the "whatchya doin?" in a nice tone. {She was feeling sick and said not to worry about making her anything for dinner, just the kids}... When she asked, I was making her dinner...I know Tabby, if I cook, she'll eat, and I like being creative in the kitchen. Felt good too, she ate everything enthusiastically. If I read in bed off of my cell (5 Love Languages, or some other helpful site) she'll be friendly with "whatchya reading?" Well, backslid last night. I went to bed, she came up 5 mins later. What does this idiot do? Rolls over to face her and cuddle. She stopped me as I was about to put an arm around her. What an idiot! Every one of you guys say "stop being affectionate. And I didn't listen, again. Guess that warming feeling I have from her at times makes me 'think' it's okay. And, trying to speak in her love languages (affection and quality time) is difficult when there aren't any ways to express them without being in her face. (I want to spend time with her, but if I'm in the same room watching TV, ect. it feels like I'm just putting myself (her issue) in front of her. So I can stay out of the room and avoid being around her (which is/was a major complaint of hers regarding our R) or I can be next to her on the couch, possible irritating her even more. GAL is going well, picking my motorcycle up today from storage, which will allow me to branch out to different activities/places/trips...but stuck on "how to be" (other than happy and content) in the house. Sorry, rambling. Just frustrated. Can take some solace in the fact it's been 40+ hours of no fighting. Have noticed she's been snarky with some of her comments; and man, her snarky cold attitude almost made me lash out. Let it roll like water off a ducks back. (Thumbs up!) Have a quick question. I've been reading posts all over the place. I've seen that there will be "tests" that I should expect. Could someone explain more of what is meant? It's been 6 weeks since BDay, so our sitch is relatively new. After last night, I will not be affectionate any more, and I've already made the decision to stop arguing and telling her she has to go. The testing though, I'm interested in...as it may shed some insight as to how my attempts to detach are being perceived. Geez, second question. Tonight I will go to bed, and do nothing, whereas I've tried a couple times in the last week to be affectionate (last night, night before). Does that little stopping of an action REALLY say something to her especially if its something consistent? Thanks folks.
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
Man, Cadet...I don't even know if she's "reeling me in." Maybe I'm just reading too much into how she says things, her tone. Like just an hour ago. I've been trying to get my motorcycle running all day, I connected the battery wrong, blew some fuzes...I'm completely helpless when it comes to mechanical stuff. I walk in at 430 this pm, and she comes down to the basement, arms crossed, asking if I'll be making supper tonight. (She's had 2 daycare kids all day, and my two, have been playing in the basement all day- not like she could't have). So, I say yes, I will be. She asks 'when', because "her and the boys have something to do later". Her and the boys, no 'me' in there. So, I look at the time, and explain that since its supper time, I'll start in about 5 mins. As she heads up the stairs (I said something stupid) I say "It would've been really nice if you would've asked if I'd like to come. She stops, says, "well you can, I didnt think you'd be interested in going to a toy store" and, well, the library, post office, shopping. Piss me off. So, I made supper. I usually make something "different" for her if I can, as I love cooking, and my kids don't like to try different things yet. I made some crappy thin pork chops, put dinner together for the kids, and decided - she can fix her own plate if she's bloody hungry. I was planning on making something special for her tonight, something new-have a huge thick chop, and was going to make a honey maple sauce with carmelized onions on it, to go with a salad I was going to make after I ran to the store, but I though F' it. Why bother. She may come down to ask me if I'd like to go, but at this point, F' it, I already felt like crap because I was excluded and not considered.
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
Was right. She came down to the basement as I was changing over the laundry "Do you want to come?". I said no thank-you. Mentioned that I was told "her and the kids had stuff to do.." and that it was obvious I wasn't considered. She mentioned, as I expected, she didn't think I'd want to go. I reminded her that a week ago, she was told that I'd like to spend as much time with her and the kids as possible (as it was a MAJOR problem regarding her thoughts of the marriage). Told her I would find something else to do, that I'd finish the laundry.
Thanks for that thread, Cadet. Been reading it. I won't be making any "special" suppers for her. Usually, I make up 3 plates, 1 for her, 2 for the kids. I won't be making that third plate any more.
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
You don't want to be licking her boots, but you don't want to be a jerk, either. That will just reinforce her notion that she's right to leave you. You're not trying to punish her, but you're not fawning either.
You are going to be the Mac you need to be for you and the kids, and she will either join you or not. Her choice, but either way, you are going to be the Mac you need to be. (It's not about HER.)
You're right Zew. I'm trying so hard not to be a jerk, but its difficult in the house when she either has a blank look on her face, or goes about her day without saying anything, or even looking in my direction. Like I disgust her. She's SO very different now.
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
Hey Starsk...nah, no implications. Getting stressed. Had a chat with my shrink mom today. I realized I could look at the last time my wife and I separated 4years ago, from a different perspective I find OM was contacted 'try' to deal with my emotions about it, after a few months, realize I can't get over the hurt, we separate she goes with kids to her mom's. I have EA with woman from work while separated, GAL, carry on. Wife notices changes, comes to visit more frequently (3hr trip, always stayed at my place for longer durations), we 'fall in love again' and move family back together as 1 unit. This time, again, wife contacts same OM, wants to go with kids to moms house, wants me to get place in previous city, so I can see kids. (Knows I can't drive there, (diff laws), have no car), would have to drive to my place, possibly stay over, ect. She's been offered money now to go get a place, she said no. She doesn't mention divorce, instead mentions separation ("we could just be separated the rest of our lives, and never get a divorce"). Ma opened my eyes to how now, just like before, she couldn't be "done" as it affects her comfort. Everything has been easy for her she's not had to do legwork. Separate? Of course...it means ole' Mac will be there when things get hard, or when she has emotional/ physical needs to be met, but, divorce, no...that sounds like "the end", and affects that comfort level. Ma believes this: That all of you here are right. When I came on here to express what has happened with some of my GAL (accused of being with someone, never loving her, only here for the kids) I was confused by her reactions, but, the thought of a possible 'someone else' upset her which makes no sense to me when she wants to be 'free'. It affected her comfort level. What did I do? Explained everything to her, 'proved' I was out alone, dancing, going to movies, ect, but all alone. I took away the 'little mystery', which was an asset. She's 'comfortable again..Mac was still at the end of her string. What I was doing was working and I pissed away. Gotta do what works.
Yesterday, I was in my spandex suit. I only wear it if I'm planning on putting on leather racing suit and riding my R1 which is in storage. She sees me in the spandex, and asks if I'm planning on bringing. The bike right home, or if I plan on going for a long ride I'd talked about. I ask What long ride? She mentions a trip to Windsor. It didn't click in till a few hours later (you'll see what I mean in a minute).
She mentioned going out with the kids last night to get a gift for a birthday party my kids went to today. So, I think "oh, that's y she wanted to know if I was going for a long ride, she was going to be going out....then it hits me. I didn't tell her about a long trip to ANYWHERE. I said it to my mother last week when I was on the phone in the basement behind closed door. Tabby listened to my conversation, and she couldn't have heard anything from upstairs, so...she had to sneak downstairs and listen from the other side of the door. She also planned on taking the kids with her last night to pick up the gift...meaning, it didn't MATTER, if I was going anywhere or not, it wouldn't affect any plans she had. She wanted to know where I was going, without having to ask (cuz heck, she's emotionally distanced from me right?). Sneaky! It's something uncomfortable, my R1. I don't have a vehicle I drive regularly, but that bike? Oh its freedom. Its excitement. It means I can come and go anywhere. It opens SO many doors for GAL, I can go anywhere, do anything. That very conversation she listened to also included me telling my mom I can 'meet a lot more people..I could go on trips with different recreational bike clubs,men aaand women-tabby would've heard that too. Just find interesting in my sitch after I read about others, and return to my own with a different perspective!
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
Sure, she doesn't want to get rid of the safety net. You knew that already.
And you can notice all those things -- that she's spying, noticing, wondering, planning, etc., but that will be a roller coaster ride you don't want to be on.
I cannot emphasize this enough - for you, it's not about her, Mac. Any time you spend wondering what she's doing, feeling, thinking is time forever lost, spent miserably.
Put your time to better use. Figure out what Mac should change about Mac. Figure out what Mac wants and how Mac wants to live. Then get Mac working toward those goals. That is time spent productively, and quite enjoyably.
Yup, I'm changing things, spend more time with the kids, and its fun. Going out more, meeting some really nice people too. I've also decided on a few 180's...the arguing. The arguing sucked. Though there have been some occasions I've really wanted to vent this past few days, I've stfu. That's the hardest for me to do right now. But I made it one of my goals...and though difficult, its working. Its been 4 whole days. Its very sad, but thats the longest we've gone without getting into one since the whole sitch started. And, I'm doing more than my share of the chores. Not to be noticed, but, because I enjoy it, and will have to do it if I end up living alone again.
Have a few goals.
I'd like to travel on the bike. I've never done that. Maybe even take a sleeping bag, find some place in the middle of nowhere to camp. And fall asleep looking at the stars. (And maybe a bout at screaming to no one in particular, just to get my frustration out 8)
I'd like to get my full license for both the bike, and a car I'd like to finish one more course, and apply to the police dept. I'd like to volunteer more at my sons school I'd like to join a second dance class, go twice a week instead of once. I'd like to stop drinking, all together
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
Just about finished DR in one night. Pretty eye opening. Can see some of my mistakes. MWD, was mentioning 'do what works'. Well, until I sat down with pen and paper, I didn't realize I HAD been doing what works, then stopped. A little over a week/week half ago, I decided not to walk around on eggshells anymore and stop avoiding Tabby. I vegan to 'spend time' with her watching TV. We actually talked a little bit more, even remeniced about doing "it" at her parents house when we rented'the devil wears prada, on their couch, when a commercial came on for the movie. Had a laugh or two as well. Then we fought a short while later, and my spending time with her stopped. Have to go back to that. Tabby I noticed didn't sleep well last night. Tossed and turned. This morning before work, If she slept well, she said no. I asked if she was OK, she said no. I offered to listen if she'd like to talk about what's bothering her, she told me she wasn't in a good mood. I left it at that, now that I know my pushing would most probably cause an argument. Haven't fought since Friday, pretty sure has nothing to do with me (of course it will!). Ah well, broad shoulders
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
I talked to my wife tonight (she just joined an all women's group focusing on one's self, and how to avoid the pitfalls of NOT fulfilling dreams aspirations, ect.
She was in a crummy mood this morning, said she wasn't "fine". Today when I came home from work, asked how the day was, how she felt. Everything was fine. She then told me 'she needs her space'. I took it for what it was, (form me, well, confustion). So I seach everything online, and rack my brain about what "space" means. Everywhere I looked, it said, ask for it to be defined. So I did. Talked to Tabby for a few minutes until interrupted by little one. Tabby told me that through the relationship, I haven't been there. And now, all of the sudden I'm right there, basically, in the spotlight, doing everything that I should've been doing all along through the relationship...and she's overwhelmed. What now, continue? Started to explain how I understood what my faults were that brough us where we are, and have been correcting them for me, regardless of sitch, but then, we were ambushed by kids... Thoughts? Right track, wrong track, opinions?
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
Way I look at it, I must have done 'something' right, for it to be noticed in just this 6 week time frame. And believe me, I've been so "lost" without Starsky, Zew, and Sandi, that I know I haven't done everything right, there have been plenty of arguements, so I can't see myself doing "too much DB'ing" Confused.
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
She was in a crummy mood this morning, said she wasn't "fine". Today when I came home from work, asked how the day was, how she felt. Everything was fine. She then told me 'she needs her space'. I took it for what it was, (form me, well, confustion). So I seach everything online, and rack my brain about what "space" means.
In my experience, it typically means "I need space in which to conduct my affair, unencumbered."
Completed our talk last night. No anger, ect. It was really nice. I picked up where we left off. I validated her feelings about being overwhelmed, even empathized that I understood that its a shock to have me 'missing' during periods in our relationship, and all of the sudden there's dramatic changes that she can see. Enough so that its overwhelming. I mentioned that I've been spending time on myself, and I've learned a great deal about how I've felt about the relationship. I mentioned that she was working outside of the house when we first began our journey together. And that with us having that alone time, we grew together when we WERE together after our shifts were done and we were home. I was honest, and let her know that I felt very pressured when she quit and wasn't employed for lengths of time. That it felt like I had the world on my back. I mentioned that I would become more stressed when I'd see her at the house all the time, and she'd have great aspirations (work, meeting friends, ect.), but never follow through with them, which in turn would stress me even more, and I'd become distant. I told her I missed the conversations we used to have, about sometimes, absolutely nothing. How we used to just spend time in a bed or on a couch doing absolutely nothing but looking at each other with a smile on our faces. She knows I'm on this site. She told me she read a post I put up the other day and it made her angry. The post on Monday was about me not making her dinner as per usual. I validated that anger, and told her I was happy she didn't yell at me, but instead, she calmly mentioned it now. I told her its how I've come to learn to deal with issues now. I mentioned there were a few times the past few days I've been upset at something but decided that I wouldn't allow myself to act out (as we all know, sometimes its better to let things go, that some battles shouldn't be battles at all). She asked about you all. If I need to be told how to do everything by you men/women. I told her no, and that I've been taught basic principles, and that those principles will guide me regardless of an 'us' or not. I mentioned her love languages. We were in an argument last week or so. She mentioned during that argument that when she went to an MC before, she asked me to read men from mars/women Venus, and I never did. Last night, I mentioned that I actually did read the book. And how I made a mistake regarding her languages (I thought 'gifts was hers, and I used to, for some reason bring her random things home for her that reminded me of her). And, I told her now that I've been reflecting on myself, and had indeed 'heard' on Bday, I have been trying to compliment the two most predominant of hers. I mentioned it is difficult, but, that I try. I validated her "unspoken" words. That I understood that what she wants isn't just 'sex' but non-sexual affection, which is y I have on a few occasions walked in the door and given her a hug, or cuddled in bed. I mentioned its difficult as sometimes when she allows this i've become excited, and tried for more, only to be pushed away, so I've been confused...confused, but completely understanding about how difficult things are for her. And affirmed her that these little affectionate signs were just that. Non-sexual. That I had no interest in pushing further. I mentioned a second language of hers, quality time. I told Tabby when our sitch first began, I was messed up. The last thing I wanted to do was be in the same room. But, took a stand, and decided time together was exactly what was needed. No matter how hard it was or weird it felt, I decided to spend that time. And when I did, change began to happen. Nothing DRASTIC, but tangible change, we talked and laughed a bit..far better than weeks before when we stormed off to different parts of the house. So it was for 'us' a better place when that change happened. And I said if it continued, it could get better still. Final thought I had was about her new women's support group. I told her I was fully supportive. That I thought it was a fantastic idea. I said that she needs support, other than her mom. I was open about my thoughts regarding her venting to primarily her mom. That the feedback she gets may/will cause more issues, or compound our issues we currently find ourselves in. I gave her foot a squeeze, and left the conversation, went to bed, and fell asleep while starting another chapter of DB.
I'll be quite honest though. I did backslide today. I asked her if she ever has doubt's about going through with S/D. I was around the house for 10-15min after I asked, but left for work without an answer. And that's okay.
If I'm being honest to myself, we've been married since 2008. The conversation I had last night was the most pleasant, meaningful one we've had in many years. No animosity, or anger. I don't even know how to describe it. But WOW. If we could talk/listen to each other like that all the time, it would be fantastic. It reminded me of our precmarriage days, really did. Now, to continue DB'ing, and fight for this marriage.
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
It very well could be. But I'm taking Sandi's advice. No longer snoop. I'll continue on working on me, have my ducks in a row legally, enjoy my GAL efforts, until i get to the point you did, and put an end to the misery. Nothing I can do but wait. Snooping just killed me inside.
Last edited by Mac00; 03/19/1502:34 PM.
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
Talked to Tabby last night. Mentioned she's being herself now (not the one I knew pre-EA!!). Also mentioned during her EA, she wasn't herself, but, it's obvious she still doesn't understand the 'not Tabby' created a massive @#&#storm, and hasn't taken any responsibility. (Unless she's projecting the cool exterior and living through it all in her head). I don't know.
I saw a text from her mom (who's really pushing her to leave the house and marriage, after hearing the 'not Tabby' vent for last 6 weeks) yesterday morning when my smallest was playing with her phone asking 'have you looked anywhere or talked to anyone?".
During our conversation (I was calm and validated) I mentioned the text. I told Tabby that since Bday, with all I've experienced the past 6 weeks, I'm expecting another bomb to be dropped. I mentioned how that pushing by mom is a greater influence than Tabby may believe. Tab told me it was another way that 'I prove I don't know her", and mentioned her mom is concerned for her, after hearing that I had told her to get out if she was so unhappy. She did admit her mom is pushing the issue, and stated mom has been looking into real estate in the area. But her mom doesn't have any influence over her.
My changes were mentioned, and Tabby admitted she has 'reservations",..I can only assume regarding their permanancy. I validated, told her this is the new me.
I mentioned our previous separation two years ago, and validated Tabby's thoughts on it. She had mentioned a week or so back, that we we're better towards each other, and better parents. Well, that is true. Time apart, and then subsequently spending the nights together due to a long commute) did bring Tabby and I closer together as a couple (fell in love again) and as a family. If the plan is to separate, I'm hoping its for some "time" not a means to an end. At least D's not been mentioned, other than Tabby mentioning we could live the rest of our lives 'separated' and never D.
I have a serious question about people and personalities.
We were in a marriage slump 4yrs ago. She contacts same OM, gets that euphoric feeling, I find out, we S for a year. During that year, we see each other (kids too) for no less than 3-4 days a week when she brings the kids for a visit. We sleep in same bed, have sex ALOT more, and our feelings grow very strong. The euphoria comes back into our marriage, we connect as a "couple", plan a new life together, and move across the country...in a nutshell.
4yrs later, to now. Marriage is pretty much exactly where it was then (almost everything is repeating exactly as then). Again, contacts same OM, gets euphoric, I find out, S is mentioned. If it gets to that point and she's in her own place, again, she'll have to bring them to my place, as I have no vehicle.
Now, I'm kinda worried. And here's my question about personalities. Are there people that will repeat the past, almost exactly, in order to (in their rational) better a relationships future?
As I sit and think about how my sitch is evolving, its almost identical to before. And I wonder if that's y S 'for now', and I don't want the affection you show me 'right now' are brought up. There has been no end, or permanency mentioned. Thoughts, anyone else been through something like that?
I think I've done too much talking with her though, and will reel it in. Make myself a little less available, and have her start any chat now, as I continue DB.
Bike comes out of storage today! Can't WAIT to go for a ride after work!
Oh, and Sandi, could you perhaps mention a little about what may be going thru a WW/pre-WAW mind. I read a few of your posts. I sincerely believe the OM conversations on the phone/texting is over. So, any insight into her poss mental/emotional/thought or decision making process at this time would be greatly appreciated.
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
Yesterday, decided that I would no longer initiate conversations. Didn't ask her about her meeting with her new women's support group. While she was gone, cleaned house top to bottom, housework for hours. Both sons have 'Impetego'. So she has no (very little) income from her home daycare this week as parents keeping kids home. She was crying about it yesterday. Cleaned all her daycare toys (figured she wouldn't, and I don't want my kids re-infected once their round of antibiotics is complete). Didn't get "all" toys though as mentioned by wife. Told me this a.m. she was going to clean remainder last note but couldn't be bothered. Evening was quiet. Read DB and then went to bed, no talk. In bed, I was playing with the cat. She mentioned that we could get another cat (y, you want to leave?). It would be easier for a cat to take care of itself if we went on vacation (we?..and we've NEVER gone on a vacation!) Wondering if it was a toss of the fishing lure to hook ole' Mac, as it was the first time since sitch happened and I've decided to be content, and not engage. Probably. Mac didn't bite, /engage in bed. This morning, was told S3 dentist would b calling her about surgery he had sched'd for tomorrow as we were unsure he could be gassed when on medication. She would be mentioning he has a contagious disease right now. Decided that as I hadn't been that involved as a dad, I'd call and talk to the dentist, left a msg. Dentist called wife later, mentioned I'd called to w. I got a text about how I'm purposely undermine her, basically, intentionally not listening to her, or purposely frustrating her. Wow.. (I just didn't want to be charged for not cancelling appt./ letting dentist office know 24hrs before the appoint). Can't win for tryin' some days. What can ya do.
W had mentioned leaving by June. Now, other day said "summer's gonna suck" M: why? W: its so hot here M: its usually hotter in the summer W: we don't have many windows that open and little airflow My brain: ..ugh, but you're leaving aren't you???.
I'll take that extra time, thank you very much!
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
Sorry Mr. Bond. R talks. I've had a very, very difficult time with this. I've read through DB/DR 3+ times, listened to everyone here (but not "heard") and I'm finally to the point whereas I can say "WTF was I THINKING!". So it's only in regards to the R.
I get hot/cold responses all the time. For instance...I was PO'd the other day. Didn't 'agree' with a separation, but told her "I know" knew she wanted it. She @#$% all over me. So, I thought, they're right (you guys) STFU. Just STFU and do what I've been saying for numerous weeks I was going to do. So I started.
My difficulty, is as soon as I 180, or do anything else, she talks. She talks more. Sometimes she's laughing or remenices...and I get caught up in it, and just friggin' slide. As soon as things seem better, I try a 'love language' she adores, affection. I do that, sometimes, she allows, and an hour later in bed, I can't even get an arm around her to cuddle. So I've been confused.
I've grown tired. I thought "do what works". Well, what works is if I spend time with her...but thats where the confusion begins, she's more talkative, chatty, even nice...and a cycle repeats. I'm told "action speaks louder than words" by her...but if I take action, I'm shot down. So, out of frustration, I'm lost.
I'm consistently being told, that though she is being "nicer" to me (this is from her mind you...) that I'm 'reading too much into it'. So, alas, the way I see it, from what I've read, I'm suppose to recoignize baby steps, but I'm being told by her, the those very same baby steps I'm reading too much into. @#$% me, I'm confused. Are they steps, or no?
See what I mean?
Figure the best way NOT to get in @#$% is to do none of the sort.
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
Thanks Mr. Bond. Yes, I've learned to validate, and I don't think I'm all that bad at it. Noticed Tabby has changed a bit this past week or so. Maybe its nothing, maybe its something. I've not really participated in housework in the past year before moving across the country with the FAM. Before our kids, then a few years later, the move, I used to do it all the time. Watching Tabby for years not attempting to find work, and stressing about being the sole money earner (for the most part), I'd become stressed, and I withdrew myself and became distant. After meeting all of you, I began to work on the things I needed to change, things she had mentioned in past arguments (she's only mentioned affection and quality time with her/kids, so I need a little help from you guys, some more ideas I can impliment). Part of that was housework. Here's a change, albeit its only happened once (yesterday), that I saw and it shocked me. Our bed hasn't been made in years. We'd get up, and leave blankets,ect wherever they ended up. Part of my change, has been an effort to make the bed...so I do it everyday. Yesterday, I was running late for work, and couldn't When I was getting ready for bed last night with Tabby, I looked in the room, to fix the sheets, expecting a shitshow that we left it as in the morning. But it wasn't. Tabby had straightened out the bed. She hasn't done that in years. I had to look at her as she brushed her teeth and asked 'did you make the bed?' She just answered 'I straightened out the sheets'. I couldn't help but say the Starsky "wow" with a smile. Maybe it was nothing, but maybe it was, I don't know, but I'm sure she noticed that I noticed. A second thing I saw from tabby this week. Came home from work, got in the door, and began to wash some dishes. Tabby came in and asked if I had noticed what 'she did today'. As I'd only made it as far as the kitchen, I said sorry, no I hadn't. She told me she swept our outside patio and straightened it up. I walked over to the window, looked out, and made a big deal (not too big) about it, mentioned it looked fantastic. (Now, it didn't LOOK different at the time, but I think she was looking for validation of her efforts, it was important to her or she wouldn't have mentioned it, and it was just as important to me that she heard something positive from me..she needed it.) A third thing happened this morning. I was getting ready for work, getting some dishes done, and Tabby came in the kitchen and asked "did you see that I used garlic when I cooked the roast last night"? (I was at work until 9pm last night. And when I came home made wings for us and we watched TV before bed, so I hadn't eaten any yet. She seemed almost, well, excited to hear my thoughts (and be validated for a job well done). I told her that I hadn't tried it yet, but was 'dying' to, as it was quite obvious when cutting up roast for my sons lunch, that it was cooked to perfection. I mentioned that it looked so good, I was tempted to have a hot beef sandwich for breakfast. And was looking forward to coming home and doing JUST that after work. I could see she was happy, she went on about how she did this and that, the way it was cooked, ect...happily chatting away.
And here's something I noticed. Something that's been pretty significant from my point of view.
Two weeks ago, there were two occasions that Tabby let me be affectionate. The first was in the bed at 7am. Usually, her alarm goes off at 7am, as she gets her first daycare kid at 730ish. She's usually out of bed, gets dressed, makes a tea by 720am. That morning, I decided to get up close to her and " spoon". We hadn't done that since before Bday. She let me. I was surprised. I began to rub her back, ect. And kiss her from the neck to her waist. I also slid my hand under her jammies and caressed her butt. That's as far as I felt comfortable to proceed (after all, the sitch has been fragile at that time for 5weeks, mostly fighting, or complete silence.). Later that morning we argued a little before I left for work. She mentioned she let me do it, so we 'got along better for the kids sake" which, I didn't understand as we were in our room behind a closed door, the kids asleep elsewhere. That day, I mentioned that I didn't want her to accept my attempts to be affectionate for any other reason than she wants to feel 'close' (if that's makes sense). A few days later, I was on the couch with her. I could see with all the kids around all day, she was knackered. I took her feet, and massaged them with some cream. She mentioned her hairy legs, but hey, I didn't care, she's my wife. As I massaged her feet, my hands moved up to her calves, then up to her putter and inner thighs, dare I say very close to her happy parts, but I left it at that, no pushing. And she not once said anything, I was sure if I was pushing too much, she'd stop me, or say so. An hour later, we went to bed. Because I had been near her vhappy spot, and she didn't pull away, I thought it would be okay to cuddle with her. As soon as I cuddled up behind her and reached my arm around her, she pushed my arm away. Totally rejected me. I apologized, and respected her boundary, and backed off to my side of the bed. I cut of any affectionate displays for almost a week. Night before last: Tabby was out grocery shopping, I was looking at divorce websites. Getting information "just in case". I printed off the paperwork to file, so I could see what I'd need to do if I had no choice to file. (She had mentioned 'separated for life' before, and I can't move forward with someone else unless I was divorced). I filled out some of the paperwork and put it under my desk (no intention to file, mind you, just wanted to have it done, put away, and have one less 'thing' on my mind to do should she all of the sudden be done and gone). When Tabby came home, I went out to the local pub (part of my GAL that note, it was wing note, and, the place is packed, I meet a lot of people there). I was there perhaps 15mins, and my phone rings, and its Tabby. I KNEW, she had looked and found the printouts and paperwork partially filled out. Not wanting to fight, I ignored the call, and shut off the phone. 30 mins later, I turned it on, and her texts had already started. She went on about many things. (Won't get into detail, this post is too long as it is.) I get home and go to bed, and she's in there. I snuggled up behind her and put my arm around her (she allowed). I reiterated my feelings for her, however, I told her I'm very tired of being confused, accused of intentionally trying to mess with her head, accepting all the blame as the reason she had her EA, and that I refuse to be a doormat. I told her I was a person, with feelings and she would not trample them. I validated that I had part in getting us to where we are, but I've taken corrective actions to address those issues, and was quite happy with myself. Of course, she zinged one too, "I'm not attracted to you anymore" -devastated, I left it at that. The next morning I woke up very close to her. I felt awful she had been hurt by finding the paperwork. I rolled over and spooned with her. Rubbing her tummy/back/ and yup, butt. I asked her if she was okay with what was happening, she was. As her alarm started going off at 7am, she hit snoozecat least 5 times. We talked later in the morning, no fighting. I again verified that what I had been doing to her was okay, and she said yes. And again, this morning, the same thing happened. Again multiple alarms ignored, until the very last second could be spent in bed before she had to get up and greet that first child. I'm excited about the past two days, and that my touches on her arm, or the closeness in the bed in the mornings haven't been shunned, and frankly, a bit surprised. I've read that a wife clan lose attraction for a spouse if they've also lost respect (as physically,bother than the drop of 25 lbs - I now have my 6pack back!) I haven't physically changed. This allowance of my affection...that normal?
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
And AGAIN this morning! (Though this time I was 'allowed (?) to be, err, more affectionate (though she did drop my name, when I crossed an unknown boundary I guess I was supposed to know was a boundary, followed by 'I have to get up now anyways'. I'm totally at a loss. Absolutely nothing reciprocated though. Frustrating to say the least. This is so unfamiliar. I'm not certain these allowances by her to receive affection from me are real (a great sign MHO), or if I'm being 'used' to make her feel good. Interestingly. I recall weeks ago I was told I'm not to hug/hold/be affectionate, ect. And now, I can kiss the back of her head, rub her leg when I'm talking to her on the couch, wrap an arm around her in bed..Jesus, even 'spoon' (which I never liked for longer than a few minutes. Sore back when I'm on my side). And yet, last night, I had my hand on her tummy, and hers was slightly touching mine, and she moves her hand away. We're both 'off ' tomorrow. While I was being VERY affectionate this a.m., I told her I wanted to 'spend more time' with her in bed tomorrow morning, and she agreed. Not sure how to take it, invitation? Ahh. Forgot to mention that last note she told me she wanted to be out of bed this morning early, so she could have a shower. Well again, the affection I was giving usurped the alarm clock and her shower. I'm a little excited about that, but must remain cautiously optimistic. No R talk for a number of days now. Least I'm not blowing that! Day by day for now I s'pose
Last edited by Mac00; 03/27/1503:04 PM.
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
I would back off any initiation from you. It seems like pursuing. If she wants it she knows where you are. She may be just not wanting to hurt your feelings or get into an argument. Let her initiate next time.
Me:49 W:45 M:19 T:22 EA confirmed and ended 8/2014 S:19,17 D:9,5
Very well could be. I'm certainly hoping it isn't to keep from causing hurt or an argument, for, believe you me, thus far earlier on in the sitch, she had no problem saying 'no'.
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
Thought things were getting better. In past 2.5 months, I was able to be 'way' more affectionate. No sex, but pretty damn close. No reciprocation, but I expected that, but things we hadn't done in bed for years. She told me she was OK with the affection. Even went on a date 12 days ago and had some fun, and interesting bedroom time. I even felt her kiss back once when I went to kiss her, she talked about plans like camping in the summer when kids out of school, got a job (sales, so no pay, just p/t and commission), ect., and now, I'm screwed.
I've been asking about her not reciprocating in bed. For the past few weeks, she's been telling me she's trying to figure out how she's feeling, and if leaving the marriage would be a mistake...and to some extent I believe that, but now have to question that too. The other day, my 6yr old mentioned her and the kids went and looked at a place for mummy to buy. I asked her about it. She denied it for days, inferring he was lying. I finally confronted her, and she admitted the lie saying she knew it was a mistake to lie, felt bad about it, wanted to admit it, but was caught off guard. I was pissed, as I've been trying to regain a little trust in her since I'm and her EA dun in March. The other night, at 230am I woke up to my youngest screaming bloody murder downstairs, wife not in bed, so I went to see what was going on and she was nowhere in the house. I checked the driveway, and saw the car was there, and see her get out with her earphones and phone. She comes in, said she has a lot on her mind and went out to the car for privacy to listen to her music and be out of the house. Of course, she said 'I know you don't believe me,ect,ect...' That 6th sense we've all developed due to our similar sitches made started to fester that very moment. The next morning, yesterday, I woke up, asked her for 100% honesty 'are you really trying to figure out how you feel?' Answered yes, and that it bothers her that she hasn't figured out y she doesn't have the answer yet. I asked 'Are you honestly weighing as to whether leaving the marriage would be a huge mistake?' Answer yes, because the decision isn't just about her, but kids needs need to be considered too. Though OK with those answers, that feeling was still nagging at me. Two hours later, I could hear her in the shower, I went upstairs, and saw her phone. I've checked it on and off for past two months and found nothing, wondering if she was deleting stuff, or being honest...so I looked, and up pops a new msg she hadn't seen yet
'Can't wait to put my cock in there"
......I lost it, txted back 'thank you for helping ruin my marriage, good luck to both of you, sent it, brought the phone to my wife put it on the counter and said "THIS is y you can't figure out your feelings with regards to me! Andeft it at that. She told me its been on/off for 'awhile' but she didn't want t to hurt me. Made a bunch of mistakes:got drunk (I quit drinking as it was a 180 for me and an issue for her, freaked out as she went back in the van again last night to chat, ect. I also took a stand. The past little while I began to trust...a little, but brought a boundary with me. After lying about looking for a place, she was told 1 more lie, I'd walk for my own sanity. My stand? I called my lawyer, set an appointment to begin separation, and currently waiting to find out the process and my legal responsibilities to my kids. As far as I understand, though she has been cake eating. And she has three options a) attempt to stay in the marriage and live the double life, b)pursue marriage 100%, or c) pursue OM 100%. Though she would pick a for her security, my taking away the fork will MAKE her choose...I'm no expert, but making a consequence for breaking a boundary must be followed up on...interesting to hear thoughts about what I may expect next. My shrink mom expects she'll attempt to make sure she has a string/claw in me to pull me back in case very long distance EA fizzles yet again.
Feel free to throw in 2 cents
Thanks guys, devastated again
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
Maybe I don't get all the "you giving her affection" deal. Ever since you started here, you can't seem to stop wanting to "give her affection" even though she has never said she wanted it. For you it's extremely physical and sexual. Have you learned any other way to attract her aside from physical? That's just satisfying your need, not hers.
Sorry to hear about the latest.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
I did stop after my last post. We then actually became friends, or at least 'friendlier' towards one another. I watched what was almost a night/day transformation for a time. She was like her old self again, pre-EA...spending time with her was almost like it was when we first met, pre-marriage/kids...I actually mentioned it to her it was so apparent. The affection started, as there came a time a few weeks back, for the first time, she actually touched my leg while I was beside her on the couch. I was shocked, few days later, she landed a job (albeit, NOT what she was hoping for). She came home, in a good mood after making a sale and I was doing dishes, I congratulated her as I walked across the room and just instictively kissed her lips, and she kissed back, just a peck. Once some of the affection started to happen in bed, I asked her what had changed, she mentioned it was a part of her trying to decide if she's making a mistake. I stopped again after awhile of no recipocation and asked if what we were doing was okay, or if she'd rather it stopped, and she mentioned on a few occasions it was fine. I thought I was attracting her back to the marriage. She was absolutely stunned on Mothers day...I sent flowers, had them delivered here, she came downstairs in absolute shock, but utterly amazed and happy...upset with the youngest when he started picking at the flowers as they were 'hers'...then this OM business again. I have little doubt it was her that initiated the contact. If history indeed repeats itself, than I'm sure it will fizzle again in time. Just hoping my stand, was the right decision. It was the last thing I could do. I cannot allow her to see that it is okay to live with me, and carry on an EA with someone over and over again.
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
"actually touched my leg while I was beside her on the couch."
That's not really much.
"I was shocked, few days later, she landed a job (albeit, NOT what she was hoping for). She came home, in a good mood after making a sale and I was doing dishes, I congratulated her as I walked across the room and just instictively kissed her lips, and she kissed back, just a peck."
Again, you initiated. She didn't.
"Once some of the affection started to happen in bed,"
Did she initiate this? If so, what did she do?
"I asked her what had changed, she mentioned it was a part of her trying to decide if she's making a mistake. I stopped again after awhile of no recipocation and asked if what we were doing was okay, or if she'd rather it stopped, and she mentioned on a few occasions it was fine."
You do know that "fine" doesn't mean "fine". Right?
"I thought I was attracting her back to the marriage."
That isn't what attracts a woman. Attract her mind and the body follows. Right now the OM is occupying her thoughts. He's her fantasy. The things she wants but can't have.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
No, it's not really much, but it was a big deal to me when there's been nothing for alost 6 months. I was attacting her mind, alot had been sent by her the past 2.5...plans made, ect. Don't know what happened, caved and contacted him..now it's "I never loved you as much as I love him, I should never have married you, ect." Have to take the cake away. Of course, I'm not arguing, I'm not fighting, just indifferent. I suppose I have to let him fulfill ALL of her needs now..almost like a Plan A while I'm preparing mentally to walk the cake away. She's angry...I don't know if it's because I found out again, or if it's because I'm not "fighting" for her by getting in arguements anymore. She's short with the kids, stomps around. Not much I can do but letter do her thing and act 'as if'
Course' I'm dying inside.
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
"No, it's not really much, but it was a big deal to me when there's been nothing for alost 6 months."
But that doesn't matter if it's a big deal to YOU. She has to be the one that it's a big deal to.
"I was attacting her mind, alot had been sent by her the past 2.5...plans made, ect."
Again, that's not attracting her mind. Just because she made a few plans, etc. doesn't mean anything. She wants her mind seduced. She wants the fantasy. She wants stimulation to make her feel something. Anything.
"Don't know what happened, caved and contacted him..now it's "I never loved you as much as I love him, I should never have married you, ect." Have to take the cake away. Of course, I'm not arguing, I'm not fighting, just indifferent. I suppose I have to let him fulfill ALL of her needs now..almost like a Plan A while I'm preparing mentally to walk the cake away. She's angry...I don't know if it's because I found out again, or if it's because I'm not "fighting" for her by getting in arguements anymore. She's short with the kids, stomps around. Not much I can do but letter do her thing and act 'as if'
Course' I'm dying inside."
Yes that happens. But you continue to concentrate on you.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Hey Bond, thanks for the response. Just stressed, apologies. She's 'made her decision" as of last night. I'm still hoping everything I've read rings true, and I shouldn't believe everything I hear. When she talks, I get 'he had nothing to do with this marriage falling apart' and again am reminded how I was so distant. Of course, frustrated I argue she can't possibly figure out 'if she's making a mistake' when she's involved in a fantasy..but, it makes sense to her that she can. Lawyer said not to leave unless absolutely necessary. Hoping it's not too late to make a difference. She mentioned she wants me to spend asuch time with the kids, as I'd like to spend with her. Taking that as a hint. Kids and I going swimming tonight, then I think I'll dress nice, and go see a show. Wow this [censored].
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
That's where I'm stuck. I've read the books. If I do most of the talking, I should say little, and keep my conversation short Yet pleasant, I shouldn't pursue, but GAL, which I do. I have ZERO idea how to change how she FEELS. Trying to be the best for me and the kids right now. Just lost. For instance, last note, huge chat about OM. She was upset, said 'don't worry, I am t be sharing the bed with YOU tonight, I wake up this am and she's there again. I suppose I try to rationalize behavior. If she wants to him, why come to bed with me? If she's trying (as she says) to figure out her feelings/decide if she's making a mistake by leaving the marriage, why sneak around on a phone hoping not to get caught. Seems to me by doing so, she's already decided. I don't get it. What's tough is trying to decipher what's true, and what's not, as there's been so much sneaking around. Still feels like a lot of blame-shifting going on
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
Does t seem possible to change how she feels, if she's so very distant. Ive been trying to be a 'leader' a d not appear weak, but it ain't so easy with the massive wall up
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
Thanks, you're dead on. Can't promise, but will try, absolutely. Let her do what she will, and react to nothing, concentrate on me and the kids, and avoid playing the game. Just continue to GAL, move forward with life. Paranoid, absolutely.
"Sometimes, if ones' words are not better than silence, once should be silent."
