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#2538930 02/16/15 04:35 PM
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Barry Offline OP
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Hi All

Links to my previous threads here. Those familiar with my sitch will know there's lots of moping about in these threads!

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...219#Post2531219
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2531393&page=1

Quick re-cap..
21.12.14 WAW drops ILYBINILWY bomb.
She leaves, gone for 2 weeks.
I then move out for financial and ease of access reasons.
Agree on 6 month seperation.
Very little contact for 6 weeks.
At 16.02.15, WAW shows no signs of changing her mind.
No signs of OM.

So I'm starting a new thread mainly because my outlook on my sitch has changed over the last week. I still don't want to divorce, and am not enjoying seperation. I can't talk WAW into giving it another shot though (believe me, I've tried). I've read DB so far.
DR and NMMNG are awaiting me when I get home today. I'm going to get straight on and read these.

I went round to see W on Valentine's Day - I had dropped a card through the door but it was more a humorous gesture than a profesion of love. She knows all too well how I feel. We've never celebrated Valentines Day due to having a Wedding Anniversary. We may not have another so I thought I'd better get one last card in just in case!!

We had some text communication that ended with me going to visit her in our home. I told her I didn't want to rake over the past any more, we both know how we got here (apathy mainly), what each other's role in the breakdown was, and both know how the other feels about the sitch. We don't agree on the outcome but that's work in progress for me to see if she will reconsider. That was the first time I'd spoken to W since BD without getting upset at all. We even managed a few laughs.

Despite these laughs, I was honest with her in that our old M is over, there is no going back to how it was (I wouldn't want to either) we were so unhappy. I have told her that I'm aware of this fact but that I don't believe it's the end of us. We can start something new, however slowly we have to take it.

She was also honest with me in that right now, she "sees this seperation as permanent" (no mention of D).

Even though she says she doesn't see a way back from this, I see in her body language, the things she says and the way she says them that there is still some doubt her mind. She won't voice it as she doesn't want to get my hopes up. She is different now but my W is still in there somewhere.

I spent the weekend resting, eating, and mentally preparing myself for the fight ahead. I've made copious notes over the last 6 or 7 weeks which I've compiled into a battle plan. I have lots of 180's to work on, GAL activities, PMA books to read, and have written down lots of examples of what works (and what doesn't) plus what things were like between us when times were good and bad.

There's still hope my friends, and by God, I mean to give it my all.

Barry.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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Feeling lonely today.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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This post is not meant to "more of the same" with me moping about my sitch but I need to vent a bit.
I've noticed that I'm not getting any responses any more?

As much as I'm trying to remain upbeat and want to DB this M, ultimatly I think my chances are very low that we can R.
My demeanor is all a facade right now. As much as I know I need to get out and GAL for my own benefit, my heart just isn't in it so it's all forced at the moment. The truth is, the only life I want is the one that's unattainable without me becoming something I don't want to be.

How do you decide what to do there??
Be someone you're not - but live the life you want, or be who you are and give up on the life you want??

I'm reading NMMNG, and yes, I am one in so many ways.

I feel lonely because I AM completly alone in how I feel about this sitch. W is just carrying on with her life, it's like I (and the last 22 years) mean nothing to her now. It's not an act either. She says she cares about what happens to me but the love is gone.

My kids either don't want to discuss it at all or seem like they side with W in that "this is all for the best". I can't "use" them to try and get through to her anyway.

All of my in-laws have distanced themselves from me and won't respond to any text messages or calls.

Any of our mutual friends are now HER friends and avoid me like the plague. I know that this is partly because they don't want to get involved but it pains me to know that W has this huge support network of people who are telling her that she "has to do what's right for her", and that they'll "support her no matter what" etc. Of course they will, they are her family and friends but all they want to see is an end to this as quickly as possible so that they can feel better about it.

My W is being "propped up" by so many people in her decision and not one of them really cares about me or sees D as a bad thing.
What I need is more friends and allies!!


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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Barry,

I'm sorry you are having a difficult time. You are in a challenging spot and I'm sure many of us can relate. I'm not a vet, so take this for what it is worth.

At the end of the day, you must take care of you. Focus on what makes your life good and what you want. I know you want to R, although please know that you don't control your W. She makes her own decisions and her family and friends just want her to "be happy." So, let her go. Stop trying to get people on "your side" because the reality is people will remain in contact with who they are closest to.

I think many of us can relate to the loneliness factor and I can tell you that I am rarely alone:) However, it does hurt to lose that R with that person who you share inside jokes with and stories that no one else knows. You just feel your feelings, work through them, and keep trudging along.

It does get easier. Hang in there!

Last edited by Georgiabelle; 02/17/15 02:45 PM.


3 kids
BD 12/15/13 (IDKIILY. )
Rope dropped Cirque du Soleil style
D final 9-9-14
"Some people are born on 3rd base and go through life thinking they hit a triple." Barry Switzer
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Hi Barry. Sorry you are having such a hard time I am very far from a vet but a few things you raise in your post make me think you are too close to your own sitch to see the wood for the trees. Firstly and most importantly is the kids are all important. Their whole world is upside down and you need to be like a rock for them. Listen to them , validate their feelings and STFU about the unfairness to you. They are trying to get through this and you need to support them

Your W might be getting on with her life with no regard to you. She might not. You have no way of knowing. My W can be laughing and joking one day and talking suicde the next ! People change their minds all the time , why can't you W

Whatever brought your W to her choices didn't happen over night and it's unlikely that she will decide to come back overnight either.

It's so hard but you are where you now. All you can do is control you and improve yourself Let your actions show your W the difference not your words

Re in laws that's really tough but at the end of the day there are her family and again nothing you can do.

Post often and hopefully some vets will chime in with their advice and guidance

Please keep reminding yourself that all you can control yourself. Be the very best you that you can be and either way you will come out of this experience a better person.

Take care. Rd

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Originally Posted By: Barry
This post is not meant to "more of the same" with me moping about my sitch but I need to vent a bit.
I've noticed that I'm not getting any responses any more?

I'm very interested in your stich and I read everything but I've stopped responding because I'm not getting through to you at the moment and I think it's best that you finish reading NMMNG and make some inroads with your IC. I do note however that you started this post with another "but" where your words contradict your actions. Just learn to assume your actions, face them, accept their consequences. You've probably covered your actions with words for all your life and it has worked so far, but now you're facing a crisis and it's time to take advantage of it and wonder: What is water? What do I do, how do I think that is so obvious to me that I don't see it anymore?

Originally Posted By: Barry
The truth is, the only life I want is the one that's unattainable without me becoming something I don't want to be.

Can you expand on this? What is it that you would have to change? What is the kind of person that you don't want to be?

Originally Posted By: Barry
I feel lonely because I AM completly alone in how I feel about this sitch.

This is interesting. Why do you think that most people seem to take her side? Try to be self-critical about it. People come here with honesty and confess their faults. We have porn addicts, people with a history of violence, of neglect, nice people who aren't so nice to their W (that's me), adulterers, etc. The more honest the introspection, the better help you get and the more chances of living a better life.


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Originally Posted By: Barry
My W is being "propped up" by so many people in her decision and not one of them really cares about me or sees D as a bad thing.
What I need is more friends and allies!!


Getting more of the people you know on your side won't help, I'm afraid. You might be interested to know that in my situation, pretty much all my W's friends/family told her to give our relationship another shot. You know what she did? She distanced herself from all of them and started talking to more distant relatives and strangers instead. It seems the need for confirmation bias is stronger than social bonds when you're really hurt. What I don't know at this point is what causes a WAS in this state of mind to come down from it.


Me:31 W:31 D:6
T: 9/2001 M: 1/2009
W unhappy: 6/14
W moves to parents: 10/14
W wants D (angry): 12/14
W okay w/ S: 2/15
W wants D (calm): 2/15
W gets new job/place: 3/15
W admits PA, suggests MC: 8/15
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Hi all, as always thanks for your replies.

So I've had a couple of sessions with my IC now, read DB and most of NMMNG. There's been big changes in me this week, even if not in my sitch.

I spoke to IC about the fact that NMMNG has really got me thinking about my life as a whole, who I am, and what it is I want. She commented that she could see and hear a change in me since last weeks session and said that I'm on a voyage of self discovery myself (which is exactly what W is on too).

Although my journey was forced upon me, maybe it's the wake up call I needed. As it stands, there's no change in my sitch in that W is seeing this S as permanent. I really haven't given it much thought this week though.

I needed a break from the worry of it all (maybe W needs to take a bit of this off me anyway!) so I went shopping one day and bought some clothes, some CD's, and a few other bits and pieces I thought I might like before but never got round to buying because I was so busy caretaking.

I've rested, eaten well, worked out in the evenings, been out with friends and made some new ones too...oh and I bought myself a sporty little car today too smile
(For those that don't know, I gave my S18 my car due to his giving up the ghost so I was without transport).

As I was looking for a car, I instinctively looked for family saloon cars or the "sensible" option. In the end, I went for whatever I thought was fun to drive, and just thought of what I wanted instead of what everyone else says or thinks.

I've had that attitude all week and it's liberating.

It's not a "sports car" but it is convertible and very sporty looking. It does definatly say fun though. The kids love it, my D15 asked me to take her to her Prom in it tonight smile

Here's one I DO mean Mozza...
W will be jealous which isn't my intention BUT if she is then so be it!

This week has been one of detachment for me. NC with W in a week and although the sitch is in my thoughts a lot of the time, the emotions have been different, less painful. I'm seeing things differently now. Although I do still want to R with my W, I've really been thinking about our R over the last 2 years and it's been so poor. We've both let and actively made it happen but only one of us has any interest in finding out is we even CAN be together.

I'm leaving things as they are at the moment. I'm getting on with what I want and enjoying spending some time with the kids. I've really hit a turning point I think.

I must admit that I'm still conscious that an OM BD could come at any time though so I won't get too comfortable.

Mozza, I'm still thinking about your questions and will post seperatly.

Keep smiling smile
Barry.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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Great update, Barry! It sounds like you had a really good week, with a big improvement in your PMA (and sanity!) since last week. I would venture that being NC with your WAW made a big difference. I know it does for me -- go to my thread to see what 2 x 1 minute encounters did to me yesterday. I'm glad you're making inroads with your IC and reading the books.

The convertible car sounds like a fun choice! I know what you mean about tangentially making your WAW jealous. I think it's perfectly normal at your stage of the sitch. I'm 5 months ahead and I still have that thought sometimes. It's not at the forefront anymore though.

Get ready for being very patient. You've likely embarked on a voyage that will take at least a year. Think about that. Even I, knowing and preaching this, sometimes feel like making things that would stop the wait. It will get worse before it gets better, but it doesn't mean it will be bad forever. My IC is really encouraging me to see the good in my sitch. That's not how he puts it: he rather makes me confess that there were things I didn't like in my M and WAW and that they're gone now, that I have opportunities I had given up, etc. It's really helping me to cope with the difficult times.

Keep smiling. smile


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Barry, I'm loving to read this - and pleased to meet Barry the racing driver. Good for you - sounds like you are managing to get yourself to a much more positive place.

And whilst you are in no way doing this for your W - it's so much more attractive!


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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Thanks you two. It's definitely been an easier few days.

I caught up with your sitch's too as I've been a bit busy of late. I know what you mean with the NC Mozza, it has been that that's helped. Funnily enough, I went to show my S13 my new car today (he was just leaving our house) and he happened to mention that W had been out drinking last night and was feeling hung-over. She has never been one for regular drinking but this has stepped up of late. I've since been told that she was out with one of the workmates (who is 10 years her junior). It only took this snippet of info to reach my ears to get me thinking that this "friend" is encouraging her to "get back on the horse" and set up a date etc etc. This may be nothing like the truth, I'm not to know.

I managed to silence these thoughts by simply thinking that "I cannot control what W is doing". My problem at the moment is that I do still believe that there is no OM on the scene (at the moment), but that he's on his way at some point if we can't R.
In knowing this, it's made me look at our M and R is greater detail and very similar to the lists you and Karma have been talking about Mozza, I did the same. I've been carrying a note-pad around with me for the last week and jotting down any thoughts that came to mind that I'd forget later and it was quite interesting reading some of it back.

My thoughts at the moment are that I still do want to R with my WAW, but that there's no possible way of going back to what we had..I don't even want to. The list of issues that I have with my W is sizeable, from important issues of independence and intimacy, down to her not putting the top back on the toothpaste. As I look down the list, there are many things which she could make effort to change if she wanted too, but there are some which I don't think will change. Now she's effectively been kidnapped by aliens too, her convictions about some of the issues are even stronger. I'd rather not go into what these are here out of respect for my W.

Mozza, to go back to your questions in an earlier post..

Regarding me being someone I don't want to be.
I was referring at the time to being some bunjee jumping, extreme sporting, constantly socialising animal. The truth is, I'm happy to have a few friends who I can socialise with and spend the majority of my time with my W and kids. I've always been that way.

On reflection though, it's exactly BECAUSE I've always been that way that I'm where I am in my life. My W would probably say I'm a "Nice Guy"..just not to her particularly. That would be true. I really wish I'd have read DB, DR and NMMNG long ago, it may have saved my M. It may still do, however unlikely it seems right now. I'm not going to worry about the sitch for the time being, I actually need to detach from the closeness of it all just as much as I do from my W. I'm really just looking out for me and the kids and letting the rest take care of itself right now. As I type this, W has just text'd asking me if I'm ok and we exchanged a couple of pleasant messages. I knew where to stop this time and we stopped on good terms but still with no plans to meet up or anything. The key point there is that she contacted me. What works??...backing off Barry, that's what!

Regarding to why my W has so many people on her "side".
I actually found out during the week that my W has asked her family and even some mutual friends not to initiate contact with me. She hasn't gone as far as to say "don't speak to him" though. I met up with W's older sister for a drink the other day, we've always got on very well and although we did talk briefly about the sitch, she wasn't telling me anything I don't know already (e.g. W really seems to have made her mind up about things). I have been in touch with some of them over the last couple of months and to be fair, they've all said that W is NOT saying anything bad about me at all. She has told me this too. I do have people on my "side" so to speak, but ultimately, this is one battle where no amount of allies will help.

Lastly, and regarding my faults that have contributed to the breakdown of our M, I'm going to post about this separately tomorrow when I've given it a little more thought. I know a lot of the problems, but some of them are just symptoms, not the root cause.

Hope everyone has a good evening smile

Barry.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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Hi all.

Not much going on in my sitch at the moment. W is not wanting any contact still. I will be seeing her tomorrow morning as we have a meeting with the Principal at a school my S13 is attending hopefully in the short term. As I've said before, he has some issues at school which started before BD but have really stepped up in intensity since.

She may well think I've forgotten about the meeting as I haven't been in touch about it. I'm just going to turn up (nice and early) for it. It's the sort of meeting that the old me would have let W attend on her own whilst I worked (she wouldn't have minded this. Now we're separated though, I only get told half the truth from my S13, and half the story by W...and I don't believe half of that either!!
So I'll go and hear it all for myself and see what can be done to help him.

I had a bit of a sad evening last night. No tears but certainly a lump in my throat. The weekends are always a bit painful for me.
I allowed myself 2 hours to sit and mope about things before I wiped the thoughts away. I actually don't want the pain or sadness of my sitch to completly dissapear. If that happens, I guess my hopes or R will be over and I'll have to move on alone. Realistically, R is so unlikely at the moment that I've used it to detach somewhat.

I have an open offer to go for coffee, or maybe even dinner with a woman I knew many years ago. She is single (and attractive) but it would not be a "date", just an evening with female company. However, I'm aware that although this may fill a void in me (I do miss female company, but obviously my W is who I really want to be with), if W were to find out about it it would really be saying to her "it's ok to date whilst separated". I don't want to, and I don't really want her to either.

So for the moment I won't go. There's no rush to do anything...particularly the wrong thing!!

I've filled this week with GAL activities to keep occupied...

Today - Visiting S20, out for a meal.
Tomorrow - Cinema with D15 and S13.
Wednesday - Joining my old football team again (out injured for a year).
Thursday - Start of my Emotional Wellbeing course.
Friday - Gym, then seeing some friends.

This is becoming easier to do as I become more detached and less reliant on my W's company to keep my mental state buoyant.
I truly never realised how wrapped up in letting her emotions rule mine I was. I'm not changing my mind about the sitch and I will continue to DB my way through this until there is no way back. It's just that I can't let the sitch rule my life any more.

Barry.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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Hi Barry - sounds like some good GAL for the week.

Emotional wellbeing course - now that sounds interesting....do tell us more..


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SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

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Hi Toots,

Ok, so the "EWB" course...

A week after BD, I went back to my doctor to get help as I was so depressed I was worried about my state of mind.
I got antidepressants, and also the details of a government funded initiative..."Let's Talk". I called them initially to see about councilling. As part of the call, they offered me a place on the above EWB course. At the time, it was 6 weeks away though!

What I really wanted was an IC but I took the place on the course anyway and they were supposed to send me some details of IC's through the post (those details never came but I ended up arranging my IC through my employer's healthcare package). So this course starts on Thursday, it's an hour and a half each week, for 6 weeks. From what I've read in the literature they sent me, it's a group setting (between 6 and 15 people), and the course is designed to help you be able to recognise and cope with your emotions.
There is no pressure for individuals to speak openly to the group of their problems.

I'm totally not the sort of person who would ever have signed up for this before but I need all the help I can get. So now I've got my meds (which really do seem to be working now), my IC, this course, my self help books...and last but not least, you guys.
I'll fill you in on the course content better when I've been a couple of times.

Barry.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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Interesting.....hope it goes well Barry. Might be a good way to meet new friends too..


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SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

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I'll let you know what it's like Toots. As I say, for the last 10 days or so, I've been able to keep my emotions in check and my PMA has been high. I don't feel like I need it as much as I did 6 weeks ago. However, I know that could all change at any point so it's really about being better prepared for when that happens. I'd thought about the opportunity to meet new people too.
Let's see...I have nothing to lose from it.

Had a nice meal with S20 tonight. He's at Uni but it's only about 30 miles away so not too bad. He's training to be a teacher and is getting on really well. He's really making his way in life and has a lovely girlfriend. I'm very proud of him, of all my kids. I miss them all very much.

Looking forward to seeing D15 & S13 tomorrow for the Cinema. My D15 I see quite a lot, she comes to see me and texts me all the time. My S13 has been a different story though. He doesn't answer my calls very often, and text replies are one word. I offer to do things with him, or if he just wants to watch TV with me, that's fine too. He's not very receptive to it all though.

I did speak to him tonight and he's got a stinking cold, and I think he's a bit worried about the meeting with the school on the morning. He did a week there about a month ago, and it's really designed for "problem kids" who because they disrupt lessons so much in their respective schools, they all get put together. He does struggle academically though and they do get extra help, smaller class sizes etc so we'll see how it goes. It's hard for me to help him out with schoolwork or keep tabs on his progress when we're S though.

My S18 called me tonight too, so a full house smile. We're on opposite shifts this week so I'll see him briefly each day but will catch up properly at the weekend.

W did text me tonight just saying "Hi am I just taking S13 tomorrow or are you coming too". I just said "Hi, I'm coming too, I'll meet you both there".
It's going to be a fairly brief meeting I think, and of course my S13 is my only real concern and reason for going.

It's difficult for me to see W for any reason at the moment. Although I feel like I'm detaching from the sitch a little, when I see her it stokes the fire. I have to admit that I'm a bit confused about my feelings at the moment too.

Is it common that I've actually been thinking about whether or not this IS the right thing to do? Does that mean that maybe I DONT love my W as much as I think I do?? My mind HASNT changed, I do want to R with her and that's what confuses me. Maybe it's just healthy thinking and i'm not used to it!!

I'm just wondering if everyone has similar thoughts at times?

Barry.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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Just want to bump this up a bit - I'm really curious about my question at the end.

Barry.


Me 40 W 38
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S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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Originally Posted By: Barry


Is it common that I've actually been thinking about whether or not this IS the right thing to do? Does that mean that maybe I DONT love my W as much as I think I do?? My mind HASNT changed, I do want to R with her and that's what confuses me. Maybe it's just healthy thinking and i'm not used to it!!

I'm just wondering if everyone has similar thoughts at times?

Yes, we all do. Maybell is coming to terms with the idea that her H is unfit as a father. BigMac recently declined his WAW's offer to reconcile and he signed the D papers. I have my own reflection on whether my WAW would be a fit partner for the next 40 years. HPoirot is seriously considering filing for D even though he would have preferred that this never happen. Zelda09 is nearing the piecing stage yet is sometimes upset by her H's recurring behavior. 3kids is wondering whether he should file for D.

For most of us, DBing means getting over an A. It's something we never considered -- in fact, we felt the same way you feel right now, thinking we'd never ever forgive this. But when it happens, we are faced with our choice and we often realize that there is much more than we thought to take into consideration. Some will decide it's too much to forgive, other will do it out of love, for the kids, for the shared history, for the remorse, etc.

As I discuss on my thread these days, it's probably healthy to detach and acknowledge that our WAW do not want us as partners. It's a good idea to explore why is it that we're so hung up on someone who has rejected us without any ambiguity.

I see you haven't posted to anybody else's thread in almost a month. This is a mutual support group, so it would be helpful to get more people interested in your sitch if you went around and offered words of support. In fact, it would help you get some perspective on your sitch to get a little involved in that of other people, providing support or even advice on things that are clear to you. We all struggle with different parts of DBing.


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Thanks Mozza. I agree with all of that.

My overriding thought is that I want to R, but when I look at the real make-up of our M, particularly in recent years, I'm amazed. There are lots of areas where I think I'm settling for less than I should and I know W feels the same way. She as good as said those words. I've used this to start detaching. Like you said, our WAW don't want us now...maybe not ever again.
I do believe in the DB process though and she has to travel her own journey as much as I do.

I must admit to being very slack in writing on other people's threads. I do read many of them but it's really only over the last few days where I've felt better placed to chip in with my thoughts on them.
Up until now, I've been TOO involved in my own sitch. I read other people's (most of the people you've mentioned above) for insights into my own. I've felt like how can I offer someone marriage advise when my own is being flushed down the toilet. I will start to post more, thanks for the kickstart. smile


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Hey, Barry, just an FYI: When I started posting to others last year - just as Mozza said up there - I started gaining clarity in my own sitch.

We're all here for the very same reason: We had/are having marital problems. That qualifies us ALL to offer words of wisdom, and - as you know - people here really do love to hear different perspectives.

You have a unique perspective. Share it. It'll help your own confidence in this process a whole lot. smile


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Barry,

Unlike some, I don't think having people posting on other threads is useful IF the poster isn't in the right frame of mind and or is not familiar with the DB principles.

You'd be surprised how often an angry person comes on and vents or "transfers/projects" their situation onto others. It's incredibly Unhelpful. There is also a lot of misunderstanding or ignorance of DB tenets, so having those folks spread their misinformation is not helpful. I'm shocked at the number of posters who post here without even reading the books, let alone believing in them AND or who have not posted their own stories...it's sort of poor etiquette b/c they reveal nothing about themselves while telling others how to live.

And usually, not always but mostly, they are projecting their situations and biases onto others....counter to DB principles.

When I first posted here, I wanted to be declared "Right", and have h vilified for being the selfish MLCer that I believed him to be. I also continuously asked the useless unanswerable question of "WHY????"

I thank God that I got a wonderful DB coach and the people posting to ME at least, were DB believers. They almost totally changed my way of seeing things but geez, I took a LONG time to get there.

I spent/wasted the first year here, trying to figure out what was in h's mind/heart and truth be told, 1) HE probably did not know and

2) I should have focussed on ME/the kids/MY stuff, way more and faster. A lot faster.

Though I rarely got someone projecting onto me, I saw it a lot on other threads.

It's NOT a sign of you being self absorbed not to post, it's often a sign of humility. If you are in too much pain or have not absorbed or believe in the DB tenets, it's better that you Not post, imo.

But words of encouragement to others, just letting them know you care and they are in your thoughts and prayers, is always a kind thing to do.

Just my .02

Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 02/24/15 09:14 PM.

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Thanks for your input Train & 25years.

I also haven't been posting on other threads purely because I've had so much advice from people close to me and W that I felt it was getting too hard to separate the good from the bad. I took what I felt was the good stuff and left the rest. I believe in the DB principles as I'm seeing them in action in my sitch. Don't get me wrong, there's no change in my WAW's plan to remain S and D at some point at the moment, and there may never be. What I do know is that I've felt better recently because I've applied the principles to my life.

Had a nice evening with my D15 tonight, went for a meal and to the cinema. My S13 didn't make it, he was ill today when I saw him so he went to bed early. I'm going to see if he wants to go fishing at the weekend. He started recently with his friends and is interested in it. I've been sea fishing before (which was a great lads weekend) but fishing in general has never been my thing. I really want to try and spend more time with him though so it's a good opportunity for that.

Back to playing football tomorrow evening after a year out injured.
God help me!!

Barry.


Me 40 W 38
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I really enjoyed playing football again last night. I'm no Lionel Messi but I can hold my own against some of the younger lads.
It's really just a bit of fun and fitness and is a great GAL activity. I haven't seen the lads for a year (they all work in a different company and I only know them through football), and they were really glad that I'd gone back.

I was a bit worried about my knee due to a horrific cruciate ligament injury a year ago, but it stood up to the test and I'll be carrying on playing. Even though I go to the gym, running, cycling etc, it's different muscles being used playing football so my calves and quads are a bit sore today...no pain no gain though.

When I left, I went to see one of my friends who I've worked with for 20 years. He's a great guy and knows of my sitch. He's been D twice now and lives on his own. He's a doting father to two grown up girls and is still on speaking terms with one of his XW's. We chatted for hours and had a real laugh.

I don't want to say to much about it here, but I had some really good news a couple of days ago. Nothing to do with my sitch, and totally unexpected. I wish I could tell you all, it made me believe in karma so much and you'd all be astounded at my good fortune. Suffice to say, it lifted my spirits no end which is good enough for me.

Because of the above, I actually have the oppurtunity to go abroad if I want to. Even if only on a short holiday. My friend told me that's exactly what I should do, and he said he'd been thinking about it too. So we ended up deciding to go somewhere together and to just get away from it all for a week.

I'm considering holding off on this until either an OM appears in my sitch OR we get to the end of our initial 6 month separation and W still says she doesn't want to R. Either of these could knock me back in my emotional state (i think?, maybe it won't and I may feel different by then?), but if it does, then I could just get away from the area for a bit. Some people may look at it as running away from things, but to be honest, I don't realy care. What other people think is not my problem.

He also has to move house soon as his rented property is being sold and we got talking about that. He also said that if I was interested (and my sitch doesn't improve / we DON'T R) I could move in with him, either short or long term to get me out of my parents house. ** I don't mind being there as such but it's not the same as having your own place even if it's shared. It's not really helping me.

So in the space of around half an hour, I'd been invited on holiday and offered somwewhere to live. I jokingly asked the guy if he thought we were taking things a bit too fast...he hasn't tried to woo me at all, not even bought me a drink and we're moving in together lol smile

Anyway, the offer is there if I want it and we have such a laugh that I'm seriously considering the offer should things not work out with my W and my DBing efforts.

I start the Emotional Wellbeing course this evening. I'll let you all know what it's like and I'm quite intersted to see how it will fit in with how I feel right now. The DB/DR principles, plus those in NMMNG have really made some positive changes in me, so I don't want to jeapordise that too much at the moment.

It could well be that it just adds to my arsenal of weapons to help cope with this whole s****y situation.

Take care everyone.

Barry.


Me 40 W 38
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So W text me this evening asking if my open invite for some dinner out somewhere was still on as she'll come. I recieved this text whilst attending this new Emotional Wellbeing Course of mine...oh the irony.
We're now going out tomorrow night to a nice country pub that I know - we've never been there as a couple. I wanted somewhere new, our old life is gone.

I told her when I sent the invite that I don't want to talk about our sitch and that I had no expectations. Just two old friends, having some dinner together.

Guys, this is my time to pull all my s**t together. All of what I've read..both on here and in DB/DR/NMMNG, everything I've learned from this so far.
I feel ready to walk the talk. I did say as friends though, and I mean that.
IF we are ever to stand any chance, we need to at least be friends first.

Hey, for all I know? She could sit me down and tell me she's met someone but I don't think it is that. My gut says it's not anyway.

We haven't been together in the same room for more than 15 minutes since the 19th December and had so little contact that it may as well have been zero. In the grand scheme of things, it means nothing but it is a step for me nonetheless.

We have my D15's 16th Birthday on Monday, and we're going to see a musical (Wicked). My D has no idea. She's going to be so excited, she's wanted to see it for a year - since W and I went to see it with our friends. We were in the thick of piecing from separation 1 at the time so we didn't take her.

W said a while ago that she didn't want to go as she didn't want it to be awkward on D's birthday but I was firm in that she'll only be 16 once, we bought the tickets before all of this and I would like her to consider coming.

I think for W, tomorrow is really about seeing each other before Monday to ease things. I'll take that at this stage.

Barry.


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I hope your dinner goes well and hope you have good news to share with us.


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Barry

a few posts back, you said you were going to post about your role in the marital crisis and the flaws you want to work on.

Can you do that sometime soon? It would help us, to help you.

As for the dinner, have your goal be to "eat dinner with w and NOT have R talk."

Remember to be upbeat, a fun optimistic KIND Man, not critical of anyone, no judging, etc.

IF SHE brings the R up, ask her if it's "okay to table that for now"

and get back to discussing what is safe, e.g. the kids or YOUR GAL or family, etc.

and remember your 180s...what are they?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
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H off to Alaska 2006
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*2016*
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Thanks Joe, I'll update tomorrow on how it goes.

25years, you're right, I never got around to posting that. It's been intentional over the last week that I haven't because I wanted to enjoy the positive emotions I've had for a while. I can't keep putting it off though.

I've been such a typical "Nice Guy" for all of my life. I never thought that it could be a bad thing.
Unfortunatley, I've never felt like much of a man to be honest. I've been immature in my actions, thoughts and communication but really only with my W? At work and around friends I'm confident, funny, and mature. My W is the other way around. She's mature around me but immature when around her friends. I've procrastinated all my life, not finished many things that I've started, and have never gone after things I wanted...just for me.

My W has said that I've been controlling and maybe I have to some extent. I think it's more that my W has always been the one to make the decisions, from what to have for dinner to where to go on holiday. My answer would always be the same - "I don't mind babe, whatever you want". I lost my individuality and just became half of a pair. SHE actually had all the control.

Since the start of the breakdown, I think I tried to make an effort to take some of this back but rather than trying to control myself and be an individual, I wanted to control HER and turn things around. I wanted her to feel like she needed me like I did her.
I've always put my W on a pedestal and she has been the No 1 thing in my life. As sad or as wrong as it sounds, she was put above my kids, my work, and certainly myself. She found this stifling - she told me that last year.

She's always handled the finances. To the point that sometimes, I wouldn't have a clue what money we had...even if I'd just been paid! Even though she is amazing at making sure everything gets paid on time and that we have enough left to live on, I always wanted to be more involved with it. It felt wrong that I wasn't (and since we separated, I've obviously had to do all this and I've felt empowered by it).

I've felt for such a long time that I loved her more than she loved me. I'm not a bad looking guy, but she has grown more beautiful over the years and looks better now than she ever has. I've felt that she was too good for me, and that in turn caused me to start having negative thoughts about her desire to be with me. As I look at it now, it was all in my head. My thoughts made me act differently towards my W, and she felt stifled by my neediness. And I was needy. I felt I needed her with me as much as possible because I felt weak. I felt I needed W to have me in her thoughts all the time like I did with her.

What I wanted was for us to feel the same about everything. It was a recipe for disaster as we've ALWAYS been very different. Our tastes in most things are different, and that was part of the attraction I think, that for all our differences and struggles, we still loved each other and would be together forever. The differences magnified over time though and it drove a wedge between us...I/we let it.

I don't want to get too graphic here but we've always been different in our sex life too. I always wanted more physical love (and yes, I would always settle for bad sex rather than none). She has never had a high sex drive and it became a mechanical, predictable part of our M. I also suffer from PE and it has sometimes been litteraly less than a minute before it's over. I used to focus on foreplay to try and make up for it. She always said it never bothered her but I could see the frustration in her sometimes. It made me feel terrible. All I wanted to do was please her...again, another Nice Guy trait.

She told me last year that she felt that on the weekends, I would try to get her drunk so that she would do things that she wasn't comfortable doing. Sometimes this was true. One of these was masturbating as part of our foreplay and I pushed it too often. She told me that she had never even done it alone (and wasn't comfortable with it) and that she didn't want to do it whilst I watched and joined in. I persisted though - not every time but a lot of them. This fantasy came from watching porn online and having unrealistic expectations. It wasn't a regular thing that I used to watch it. It was a way of release from tension without forcing myself onto W when she didn't want to though.

It was so different years ago. Although I work at the same place, I used to be a blue collar, working shifts, 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. I worked hard to provide my family with whatever was needed and we fought our way out of a huge amount of debt. It took many years to get out of that debt, living off such a minimal amount. At the time, it was hard work but now I look back on it, it was our happiest time together. I felt respected by everyone because I worked so hard, both physically and the amount of hours.
We had 4 lovely children that we spent time with. I did as much as I could with them but my W felt like a single parent sometimes. It really felt like us against the world.

Around 6 or 7 years ago, I was offered a position working in the office. Better pay, better hours, better job. I'd worked shifts all my adult life and had missed so much of the children growing up. I decided to take the job to better myself and to be able to start living a "normal" life where we could spend more time together as a family and as a couple. It was great at first, but the transition for blue to white collar was a challenge for me. It's a fairly stressful job but I succeeded in making the change. I was always physically fit in my previous job (all manual labour) and I looked good. I did put some weight on (ok, more than some) when I started sitting down all day but my W wasn't particularly bothered about it. At the time, I wasn't either. Anyway, I lost all the weight (W lost a lot too) and it was probably our happiest times.

We started to talk more seriously about "The Plan" that we'd had for so many years in having "our time" once the kids were older. We did start to do some of the things - travel, spend more time together etc. Then we hit some financial issues and the money just wasn't there to do the things we wanted.

When W started working, it was great at first. This had always been part of "The Plan" and it gave her her independance as well as bringing in some much needed cash. I thought we were going to get back on with the plan once this started but she changed. She wanted to go out more yes...but not with me, with her friends. I didn't take the changes well and became withdrawn, miserable, manipulative, condescending and moody. This pushed W away even more but I kept on and on, never really thinking that she would just end things. The control I was trying to take back was ruining my M and I never even saw it happening.

I had what should have been my wake up call last year when she did just that, and tried to end it. It tipped me over the edge. I did everything wrong then. I wish I'd have found this forum, and the books back then, maybe I wouldn't be here now?

Maybe I would. My W has gone through significant changes herself in the last 18 months (typical MLC stuff). This, coupled with my peronality taking a huge hit for the worst has turned her completly off the idea of having a R or M with me.

The sad thing is that I honestly believe that if she felt like she could do all the things she wants to do in life, and I was more like my old self (confident, funny etc etc), she would want to stay M to me. We've had a good life, R and M up until 18 months ago (she agrees with this). She can't see that I'm changing for the better because we are having NC, but I really am. It's not for her although of course I want her to notice. I am adapting, changing, and growing into the man I always wanted to be and at this stage, I don't even know if I can do that if I'm around my W.
I DO want to R with her but I too want to walk this path now I've got my shoes on!!

I've rambled enough for the moment and the story is a little mixed up in the timeline. I've just typed as it came out.

I have some longer term 180's, but for tonight's dinner meet-up I need to..

Smile more.
Keep the coversation light with no R talk.
Really listen to her.
Be kind (instead of nice!).
Be assertive and confident.
Laugh with W.

I'll be happy with any improvement on the current sitch tbh. She hasn't wanted to spend ANY time with me at all for the last two and half months. I miss my wife, my lover, but most of all I miss my friend.

Barry.


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Quote:
I've been such a typical "Nice Guy" for all of my life. I never thought that it could be a bad thing.
Unfortunatley, I've never felt like much of a man to be honest. I've been immature in my actions, thoughts and communication but really only with my W? At work and around friends I'm confident, funny, and mature. My W is the other way around. She's mature around me but immature when around her friends. I've procrastinated all my life, not finished many things that I've started, and have never gone after things I wanted...just for me.


This sounds very similar to my situation. Main difference is that I was angry at my wife for things and wasn't about to do what she wanted until she threw even more of a fit. frown

I trying to knock off a lot of projects now, but am sooo far behind I don't know if I can make a dent before stuff really crashes beyond what it already has.


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A very insightful post, Barry. I'm sure you see how much you've grown in the last few weeks. NMMNG was also an eye opener for me and I'm glad that it's proven useful to you. I plan to re-read it eventually and I walk about the same path with my IC. Let's remain aware, both of us, that a sudden realization is different from lasting changes. We have the gift of time to make this happen.

Your sex life sounds very frustrating for both of you. It seems like you did settle for bad sex for a long time, and so did she. I consider that WAW and I had a good sex life, with sex 1-2 times a week and all parties involved physically satisfied. When WAW moved out, my libido went through the roof, all directed at her. I told my IC about it and he said, this week, that it's not that my libido had increased, but that it was repressed in my M. It has taken back its place. This is making me reassess my view of our sex life. I still think it was good, given 10 years together and two little kids, but I can see how it did not realize our full sexual potential. I used masturbation and porn when I felt it was too much work to ML. It's not even a question that WAW is having more, better sex now that she's with OM. Part of your panic at the idea that she'll meet OM is believing that she can get there the pleasure and satisfaction that you did not deliver. I know it's a horrible feeling for me, as a male, but also as Nice Guys so convinced that we need to please.

So if my WAW is having some kind of sexual reawakening through the S, I've been thinking about my own lately. Sure, I still want to ML with WAW above all and I'm still ready to forfeit all other women (even Cate Blanchett) for the rest of time with her. But that's not the situation I'm in. It's rather an opportunity to reassess my sexual needs freed of certain interdicts. When alone with myself, when I shut up that little voice that tells me what is right and wrong (my IC calls it a "guardian"), what is it that I really want? Was my R with my WAW delivering this? We all seem to accept that after a certain period of time, couples ML less often and perhaps with less imagination. Is that a given? Is it a sign that we need to move on? Are we with the wrong person? All provocative and uncomfortable thoughts, if you're like me.

An unexpected impact of these my recent reflection is that sex seems less of a big deal than I thought just six months ago. For me, sex was the ultimate bond, the thing for which you closed the door and built a relationship, not just physically but through genuine connection. I wonder now if I was doing this partly out of fear that I wouldn't find someone else, so I would bond strongly with this one willing mate. Also, I now realize that sex can be pure pleasure. It's ok to desire someone only physically. It happens a lot to the mutual satisfaction of many people. Years ago, I was attracted to this girl and after a few dates we ended up sleeping together. After a few more weeks, she asked me if it was serious or just for fun. I knew I didn't want to marry her, but the Nice thing to say was that it was serious (not to mention that it secured the supply...). I ended up moving in with her after 8 months of dating and it ended 7 months later, not surprisingly.

I write this long post because I feel that for both of us, and maybe more on these boards, sex is playing a much bigger role than we realize both in the S and our own lives. My therapy, with a Freudian IC, is making me think about the deep and unspoken place of sex in our life, including our career, friendships, body, relationship with our children, etc. He likens it to all other pleasures, like eating an apple, but the ultimate pleasure tagged with the ultimate interdicts. A mix of strong drive and strong braking. There's a lot of shame associated with our needs as Nice Guys, on top of society's expectations and taboos regarding sex.


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Hi all,

Mozza, you make some excellent observations in your post. The ones that really resonate are;
Originally Posted By: Mozza
1) Your sex life sounds very frustrating for both of you. It seems like you did settle for bad sex for a long time, and so did she. It was, and yes we both did.

2) Part of your panic at the idea that she'll meet OM is believing that she can get there the pleasure and satisfaction that you did not deliver. I've worried about this for some time.

3) Was my R with my WAW delivering what I want? We all seem to accept that after a certain period of time, couples ML less often and perhaps with less imagination. Is that a given? Is it a sign that we need to move on? Are we with the wrong person? I can't answer this one.

4) For me, sex was the ultimate bond, the thing for which you closed the door and built a relationship, not just physically but through genuine connection. I wonder now if I was doing this partly out of fear that I wouldn't find someone else, so I would bond strongly with this one willing mate? This.

So I had dinner last night with WAW as planned.
I'd slept well, bought some new clothes, got a haircut (not really required but always feels good I think), shaved, new cologne, all the usual things. I washed my new sporty looking car, mentally ticked off everything I've learnt about myself recently, what I'd read in the books and on this forum and set off, still mindful of having no expectations.
I looked and felt great without blowing my own trumpet. I felt confident. I've lost around 20 pounds and it shows. I also decided to take my W ring off for the first time in an effort to show no pressure. She knows how I feel about things.

WAW turned up and said she was feeling a bit sick. She had a headache and she did look as though she hadn't been sleeping well.
I could see straight away that this meeting was for a reason as eye contact was difficult for her.
She seemed guarded and nervous, whilst I was open, confident and talkative. It seemed like WAW's confidence was a lot lower than I'd seen since BD. Maybe the grass hasn't been so green? I stuck to safe subjects like the kids, extended family, friends, work etc and waited to see which way she may want to steer the conversation.

As we were eating our meal, she said she wanted to talk about something.
I sat there and thought "Here it is, the moment that I've been dreading"...OM has arrived.

But no, he's still just on his way.

WAW "I've been thinking about the house and I have a proposition for you."
Barry. "And what would that be WAW?
WAW.."If we sell our house, we'll both walk away with around £10k each. You can buy me out for £10k and have the house?
It's a good deal, and you get to move home. S18 and S13 will live with you and D15 with go with me. We've paid too much into it and have 11 years left on it for one of us not to benefit and you can afford to live there..I can't"
Barry.."Thank you for your offer WAW, can we discuss it another time?
WAW.."Yes, that's fine but it's a serious offer and I'm just putting it out there".

** It's at this point that you should know that the actual figure we'd walk away with each is significantly higher then £10k.
We both know it. If it was what I wanted, it is a good deal.

We chatted about other things for a while. It's whilst we're talking then that I see she is now more talkative and open so I'm thankful not to hear about an OM, at least for tonight. She was still trying to talk about R though so I asked her if she wanted us to take 5 minutes out to do that? She said yes, that she wanted to. I insisted it not be about the past, and she insisted that I start.

I told her that I really do understand how she feels about the M (over), and that I was changing my perspective (but not my mind) on the whole situation. I said without blame that it was the worst thing that had ever happened to me, but in some ways, I needed it to happen. I know what water is now. I told her that now I find myself here, that I was using it to make myself stronger.
I told her that I was more aware of my faults, and also of my strengths and that being away from her had been like going through cold turkey for me. I didn't need her any more...I wanted her in my life. She said she could hear that in me and believed it.
I said I missed my oldest friend and confidant and that it was good to see her. I said that I thought that we are two good people who have a bad R but no one did this to us, we let it, and even made it happen. I said I know I can't control her at all, I never meant to in our M and that I was sorry. I told her it was me trying to gain back some sense of power when I felt I had none.
I said that I was concentrating on Barry and his kids right now.

She said that she hasn't changed her mind at all, and that she'd really been thinking about it a lot. She doesn't see anything changing and that she was sorry. She said she hadn't met anyone and had no plans to. She started to put herself down both physically and mentally and asked who on earth would want her anyway? I asked her to continue rather than saying "ME! ME!.
She doesn't know what she wants but knows what she doesn't want, and that's this M or R any more.
She feels that everyone is reporting back to me about anything she does (which isn't true, no one does), that it was stressing her out and that she still feels trapped. She said she maybe made a mistake in agreeing to move home and she should have got her own place. She wanted me to seriously think about the £10k buy out offer, I didn't have to answer now, just think about it.

We agreed to leave the R talk there and it was within our 5 minute window. We chatted about other things, tried to lighten the conversation and even managed a couple of laughs. I was faking it at this stage...I think we both were. WAW's offer had affected me. Even though I'd gone with no expectations, I hadn't expected that. She was seeing a different Barry and wasn't expecting that either so I think we both went home with more to think about than we bargained for.

I asked if she'd had a good evening, and she said yes. I said that although I was all too aware of her feelings, I'd like to do it again but that there was to be NO R talk if we did. I said that I missed my oldest friend and confidant, and that although I was a lot better now, I was still unhappy with the situation. She said that she could see a positive change in me and with a really heartfelt tone and look, told me that she was glad I was feeling better. That she'd been worried about me and cared about me still. We arranged our plans for D15's birthday on Monday and left. As WAW was getting into her car, she once more asked me to think about her offer, and I said I would, if she would think about not doing it at all. She said she had already.

I came "home", went to my room, shut the door and cried for the first time in two weeks.

I was upset that WAW would take £10k and call it quits. After 22 years together and everything we've been through, to put a nominal monetary value on what that was worth to her was hard to take. I'd give her a million pounds to stay.
I know I shouldn't believe everything she says and that she will talk in absolutes. She does seem to have made up her mind though. I can see that she regrets not getting her own place but I don't feel sorry for her.
I was more thinking "Ahh, poor WAW, is everything not quite as you thought it would be when you set out on this path".
What a shame...but tough luck. It's not the same for me either now.

The offer is financially viable. I could buy her out by borrowing the money. I would make sure it was all set up legally in a way that if/when we D, she would have no claim on the house. However, I would have a real problem living in the family home even if I completely gutted it and changed the décor. I would be living in a house of ghosts. The only real immediate benefit would be that I would get to live with my S18 and S13, and I would have my own space again. Those are important benefits to me so I need to consider it. Another option would be for me to rent it out and we could move somewhere else. I have a lot to think about.

The way she's talking, no amount of time is going to change her mind but I'll stay the course and continue in my DB'ing efforts until I don't want to any more. DBing is meant to save the person first (which it has already) and sometimes it can save a M too, but not always.

I choose to stand for my myself first, then my kids, then my M. In that order.
My W ring is now back on my finger, it feels wrong not to have it on.

I text'd WAW this morning to say thank you for coming and I hope she was feeling better. I would think about her offer but wasn't ready to decide on it yet. I would see her on Monday.

Barry.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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WOW!! I felt like I was reading my situation as I just read yours. The work and changing jobs. Same here! Sex part, same thing. Nice guy thing!! Controlling!! Are you sure you didn't copy my situation? But I am guessing you are not dealing with your wife's job as a phone sex operator!!!


Me:44
EXW 44
Wonderful Children
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BD 6/14
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I can also relate to alot of this post mozza!


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Originally Posted By: Barry
Hi all,
-
So I had dinner last night with WAW as planned.
I'd slept well, bought some new clothes, got a haircut (not really required but always feels good I think), shaved, new cologne, all the usual things. I washed my new sporty looking car, mentally ticked off everything I've learnt about myself recently, what I'd read in the books and on this forum and set off, still mindful of having no expectations.
I looked and felt great without blowing my own trumpet. I felt confident. I've lost around 20 pounds and it shows. I also decided to take my W ring off for the first time in an effort to show no pressure. She knows how I feel about things.


^^^ Wow...SO SO well done! Truly, I'm very impressed. whistle


WAW turned up and said she was feeling a bit sick. She had a headache and she did look as though she hadn't been sleeping well.
I could see straight away that this meeting was for a reason as eye contact was difficult for her.
She seemed guarded and nervous, whilst I was open, confident and talkative. It seemed like WAW's confidence was a lot lower than I'd seen since BD. Maybe the grass hasn't been so green? I stuck to safe subjects like the kids, extended family, friends, work etc and waited to see which way she may want to steer the conversation.

As we were eating our meal, she said she wanted to talk about something.
I sat there and thought "Here it is, the moment that I've been dreading"...OM has arrived.

But no, he's still just on his way.

WAW "I've been thinking about the house and I have a proposition for you."
Barry. "And what would that be WAW?
WAW.."If we sell our house, we'll both walk away with around £10k each. You can buy me out for £10k and have the house?
It's a good deal, and you get to move home. S18 and S13 will live with you and D15 with go with me. We've paid too much into it and have 11 years left on it for one of us not to benefit and you can afford to live there..I can't"
Barry.."Thank you for your offer WAW, can we discuss it another time?
WAW.."Yes, that's fine but it's a serious offer and I'm just putting it out there".

** It's at this point that you should know that the actual figure we'd walk away with each is significantly higher then £10k.
We both know it. If it [b]was
what I wanted, it is a good deal.
[/b]'

NEVER FORGET this ^^^ YOU are admitting it would be a GOOD DEAL FOR YOU , which means a good deal for your kids, right? Don't let emotions cloud your financial judgement.

I mean IF it comes to it...


We chatted about other things for a while. It's whilst we're talking then that I see she is now more talkative and open so I'm thankful not to hear about an OM, at least for tonight. She was still trying to talk about R though so I asked her if she wanted us to take 5 minutes out to do that? She said yes, that she wanted to. I insisted it not be about the past, and she insisted that I start.

I told her that I really do understand how she feels about the M (over), and that I was changing my perspective (but not my mind) on the whole situation. I said without blame that it was the worst thing that had ever happened to me, but in some ways, I needed it to happen. I know what water is now. I told her that now I find myself here, that I was using it to make myself stronger.
I told her that I was more aware of my faults, and also of my strengths and that being away from her had been like going through cold turkey for me. I didn't need her any more...I wanted her in my life. She said she could hear that in me and believed it.


This ^^ is called a "Victory."


I said I missed my oldest friend and confidant and that it was good to see her. I said that I thought that we are two good people who have a bad R but no one did this to us, we let it, and even made it happen. I said I know I can't control her at all, I never meant to in our M and that I was sorry. I told her it was me trying to gain back some sense of power when I felt I had none.

a small bone to pick here^^...why not just leave it at the "sorry" part and Not go on to defend so much?

To me, it is very close to holding HER accountable for your own surrender of power.

Make sense?


I said that I was concentrating on Barry and his kids right now.


Excellent.^^


She said that she hasn't changed her mind at all, and that she'd really been thinking about it a lot. She doesn't see anything changing and that she was sorry. She said she hadn't met anyone and had no plans to. She started to put herself down both physically and mentally and asked who on earth would want her anyway? I asked her to continue rather than saying "ME! ME!.
She doesn't know what she wants but knows what she doesn't want, and that's this M or R any more.


A gentle reminder...pay No attention to what they say and only half to what they DO.

I myself told my family in 2006 that my m was over. That we "had maybe a 10% chance of working out"...and h and I both stated we'd be "Glad to be done"....

I'm pretty sure I meant it when I said it, too....But guess what?

Feelings change, good memories resurface, evolve, IN TIME --and most marriages are an ebb and flow thing anyhow.



She feels that everyone is reporting back to me about anything she does (which isn't true, no one does), that it was stressing her out and that she still feels trapped. She said she maybe made a mistake in agreeing to move home and she should have got her own place. She wanted me to seriously think about the £10k buy out offer, I didn't have to answer now, just think about it.

We agreed to leave the R talk there and it was within our 5 minute window. We chatted about other things, tried to lighten the conversation and even managed a couple of laughs. I was faking it at this stage...I think we both were. WAW's offer had affected me. Even though I'd gone with no expectations, I hadn't expected that. She was seeing a different Barry and wasn't expecting that either so I think we both went home with more to think about than we bargained for.



Realistically, this ^^ is the best outcome possible. Only a fool would think she'd slap her forehead and say "Oh wow, You are so different! Let's RECONCILE NOW!"

And only fools rush back in...with premature reconciliations that are bound to fail and harder to recover from.


I asked if she'd had a good evening, and she said yes.


Next time, just TELL HER YOU had a good evening and leave it at that. Not so much asking her for feedback, okay? IT's not a biggie, but it's a note to check yourself there, alright?



I said that although I was all too aware of her feelings, I'd like to do it again but that there was to be NO R talk if we did. I said that I missed my oldest friend and confidant, and that although I was a lot better now, I was still unhappy with the situation.

She said that she could see a positive change in me and with a really heartfelt tone and look, told me that she was glad I was feeling better. That she'd been worried about me and cared about me still. We arranged our plans for D15's birthday on Monday and left. As WAW was getting into her car, she once more asked me to think about her offer, and I said I would, if she would think about not doing it at all. She said she had already.

I came "home", went to my room, shut the door and cried for the first time in two weeks.

I was upset that WAW would take £10k and call it quits. After 22 years together and everything we've been through, to put a nominal monetary value on what that was worth to her was hard to take. I'd give her a million pounds to stay.


That^^ is NOT what she is doing. You know this, deep down. She is trying to be fair AND she's talking about business.

Business is business. Do not assume she is equating your m to 10k. That's your spin on it, atm. That's your pain talking.

Read what you first said ("it IS a good deal for me")...



I know I shouldn't believe everything she says and that she will talk in absolutes. She does seem to have made up her mind though. I can see that she regrets not getting her own place but I don't feel sorry for her.
I was more thinking "Ahh, poor WAW, is everything not quite as you thought it would be when you set out on this path".
What a shame...but tough luck. It's not the same for me either now.

The offer is financially viable. I could buy her out by borrowing the money. I would make sure it was all set up legally in a way that if/when we D, she would have no claim on the house.

Yes...business IS business....you MIGHT want to make some arrangement in the event of your death but only if it relates to helping with the kids. Make sense?

(Meaning, while your kids are still young, if you were to predecease her, you could set up the home AND OR some life insurance to help, but just for the kids).

I can't tell their ages at the moment but perhaps you could get a 10 year term policy so it's cheaper. It could expire when the youngest is an adult.



However, I would have a real problem living in the family home even if I completely gutted it and changed the décor. I would be living in a house of ghosts. The only real immediate benefit would be that I would get to live with my S18 and S13, and I would have my own space again. Those are important benefits to me so I need to consider it. Another option would be for me to rent it out and we could move somewhere else. I have a lot to think about.

Stability for the kids is NO small trifle. What do you think would be best for THEM, at the moment?

And yes, changing the decor would be a great idea no matter what. IF there is a recon, it would need to "look" different as well as BE different and if the home has bad connotations for you it MAY have those for your w as well.

What would selling it be like for you, FINANCIALLY? Talk to some real estate agents (or whatever they are called in the UK)


The way she's talking, no amount of time is going to change her mind but I'll stay the course and continue in my DB'ing efforts until I don't want to any more. DBing is meant to save the person first (which it has already) and sometimes it can save a M too, but not always.


THIS IS THE TRUTH ^^^^ and THIS is about YOUR growth as a man. Well done.


I choose to stand for my myself first, then my kids, then my M. In that order.
My W ring is now back on my finger, it feels wrong not to have it on.

I text'd WAW this morning to say thank you for coming and I hope she was feeling better. I would think about her offer but wasn't ready to decide on it yet. I would see her on Monday.

Barry.



Bravo Barry, BRAVO! I don't see how it could have realistically gone any better. Even her offer, is actually a good one. Try your best to separate the financials from the emotionals...and btw, I have 2 family members who actually divorced, only to remarry their ex spouses later on. (3 & 5 years later, to be exact).


So yes, it does happen.

grin cool


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
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Thanks for that 25years, for both the pointers on where I could have improved and for the cheerleading smile. I also thought that realistically, the outcome was as good as it could have been.

It's not a good offer, it's a [b]great[\b] one financially. If this were happening to someone I knew personally, or even someone on this forum, I'd be chiming in, saying to take the offer A.S.A.P.

Even though I know that W is offering this in a genuine attempt to do what is sensible, it still hurts for it to come to this. I've cried so much today and am now.

Legal stuff aside, it'll come down to me writing a cheque and cutting her loose. I know she's already lost to me, this is now about me agreeing with myself that it's over. I guess it's the same for a lot of people in that deciding about the house seems like banging the last nails into the coffin. It's your biggest tangible asset, it's a tie that binds.

Ultimately, if I do nothing or don't take the offer because of some fantasy that she'll change her mind, the chances are huge that in a few short months, the decision will be made for me despite any amount of DBing.
I know it's pessimistic, that's how it feels though.

I've already lost the R that we've both paid into for 22 years, if I don't make the sensible decision here, I'll also lose the house that we've - (but financially, predominantly I've), been paying into for so many of those years. WAW will get a lot more money, and the pain remains.

I know I need to separate my heart from my head in this.

Emotionally, I'm all over the place. I feel like a small boat in a tempest. Regardless of the figure on it, she wants out and the life I knew is over. I don't want this to be happening, but I have to accept that it is nonetheless. Realistically, she's not coming back any time soon, if ever. She doesn't love or want me any more. She's going to move on, meet someone else and leave me behind. I can't stop her. She's been such a big part of my life, of who I've been, of everything I stood for and of all I ever wanted. I've lost all that now.

I'm so upset I have to write that guys. I'll come back later.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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Hi Barry - I agree with all that you wrote until that last paragraph. That kind of negative thinking won't help you my friend. One of the big challenges of DB is to try and remain positive in the face of your WAS's absolute statements. If you start making absolute statements yourself, that becomes even more difficult. So I would encourage you to accept how you feel, but challenge some of your thinking on this. A more accurate picture would be.

She (feels) she doesn't love or want me any more (right now. This could change in time of course.)

She (may) move on, meet someone else and leave me behind. (Or she may not, I just don't know right now. I suppose I might do the same.)

I can't stop her (right now. But I can control myself and become the man I want to be. Who knows, she may get interested and turn around at some point.)

I've lost all that (right) now. (Who knows, we may be able to build a new and better R at some point going forwards. Maybe not, but I'll be ok either way.)

I guess I'm just trying to encourage you not to lose sight of reality in the 'hopeless' thinking Barry. Sorry things feel so tough right now, but you're doing really well and have come a long way. But we still see signs of the 'old Barry' as he first was on these boards. That last paragraph is one of them. New Barry is much more attractive....


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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I know, it's just really set me back.

I'm so sad when I think of all the good times we've had, all the firsts, all the ups and downs and struggles we shared.
Those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end.

I know no one can ever take that away from us, I just feel robbed of my dreams.
I wish her no ill will. I love her dearly, and I'm not sure that'll ever change.

I agree that stability for the kids is paramount. My S13 in particular needs stability right now, he's having some real problems at school as I've said. My S18 would live with me too, and I'm sure S20 would come and stay whenever possible. My D15 would move with WAW, but I would keep her room for her and she could stay whenever she wanted.

I know I have to take her offer, WAW knows it too.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
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No words of wisdom Barry but keep you head up mate. No one knows what will happen in the future. It seems bleak now but think positive and try to keep away from the negative thoughts.

Take care, Rd

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Barry,

I've now been married over 3 decades. If it were all to end tomorrow, I would NOT say "30+ years ALL gone".

I'd say "we had a good run with many years of a loving m, an example of people working at raising & keeping a family together....and succeeding at it for most of that time."

IS it really "all" a failure now, Barry?

I would hope that in time you can see the many victories you have had along the way even if you do not ultimately reconcile.

Not to mention the growth in you since this ordeal began, but seriously the marriage itself. It cannot be a "failure" when it worked well enough, for so many years and brought good citizens into the world.

That'd be like saying an Olympic medal winner is now a loser b/c someone finally broke his record.

IF IF IF it is truly over, you still were happily married and fully loving, for a chunk of time of your life.

Your children know they are loved, and that they are not alone. You're no failure in my book.

And besides, I have 2 family members who divorced, only to remarry their former spouses a few years later (3 years and 5 years). So yes, it happens

Maybe now you can turn the marriage & your pain over to God,

hold your head up and be at peace.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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I agree with the other comments on here Barry. Don't give up hope things may change, you cant start thinking in absolutes. There really is no telling what the future holds for anyone.

Whatever does happen you have to see the positive in what has brought you here. The memories and life you shared, the children you have, the personal growth you have experienced over this difficult time. Be proud of what you have accomplished.


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Barry,

I don't post much on these boards, but your situation really hits home with me. I'm so frustrated right now with my WAW that I have been considering giving up. This past weekend was the most difficult weekend since I found out about her EA.

Catching up on your situation and reading the replies from Toots and 25years have inspired me to not give up. I am going to stay focused on DB, DR, and the advice from my DB coach. Giving up would be taking the easy way out. It would make things easier for my WAW (maybe even easier for me). I know I couldn't live with myself if I didn't try my hardest for this M and for my kids.

Thank you for posting.


M:42 W:43
T:14 M:10
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Thank you all for putting things in perspective.

We took my D16 to the musical Wicked last night. WAW went too.
I wish she hadn't have made me the offer, it was so difficult to sit there trying to make sure D had a good time and be upbeat when I know WAW just wants out. You're all right that we've had a good life together and we have four great kids who we both love to pieces and they love us in equal measure. I AM thankful for the years we've spent together, she HAS been a good wife to me for the most part, she's never cheated on me, and she's not now. I'm just so sad and any hope I had has been crushed by the offer. It felt like BD day again.

I don't consider the marriage a failure, but I feel like one for not being able to stop the breakdown of it. For not seeing all of this sooner and knowing what I know now. I've been a man only a fool WOULDN'T leave.
As I've read..hindsight is 20/20.

When we got home, I asked my D16 to give me and WAW wife a few minutes so she went on in whilst we sat in the car. I asked WAW if this is really what she wants. She didn't answer. I told her that she's such a big part of my life, of all I am, of all I stand for and all I ever wanted. I said if she wanted money, I'll give it to her, I'd give her everything including the clothes off my back to stay.

Trust me, I know how un DBlike that was, and how "old Barry" that is. I was so upset, I'd been holding it in all night. She said its not about the money. She wanted to go, so I just said...I'm asking you one last time WAW...please don't do this to us.

Again, she didn't answer and said she will text me today. I already know what it's going to say but I had to ask before I set into motion a chain of events that's going to drive us apart, at least for now.

I need to get this out there...I hate this. This is her choice, her doing even if not all the events leading to it. Now it's me that has to decide to set her free. I guess we all have to do that at some point in our sitch's.

I took the day off work yesterday and I'm off today too. I've been to find out about what child benefit and tax credits I may be entitled to and ive made an appointment to see a lawyer today. I've been in touch with my financial advisor as well regarding raising the money. If she really means to go through with this, I need to act fairly quickly before people tell her she's nuts for letting me have the house for so little.

I personally think the figure she's said is partly out of guilt. She'll always be able to say "yeah well, he did well for himself as far as the house goes". In a years time, that money will be long gone and I can do a lot to the house in a year. How I feel about all this is going to change many times over that time too, but ultimately, the best Barry needs to win through.

Maybe your'e right, maybe what she's telling me about not wanting any R is true, maybe she won't meet anyone. Maybe I will, we don't know. Maybe at some point she'll see me differently. There's a lot of maybe's there I know, it's because I'm so scared of the future, my future now without WAW.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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What a couple of days I've had.

I rang my current mortgage provider and to cut a long story short, they won't lend me the extra money on my sole earnings. I need to either move my mortgage (incurring a £2000 redemption fee, and in doing that, take the extra money to pay off WAW and increase the term to lower the payment), I get a personal loan, or borrow from a family member (not on offer at this stage and maybe not available at all?). So at the moment, I'm not totally sure it's even possible.

Another thing is that I have a credit card and loan in my name only (the debt on each is "ours" though). As these monthly payments are affecting my affordability checks when applying for things, I want her to ideally take half the debt away. This is probably going to be a sticking point.

I saw a solicitor / lawyer today to get some advice on this offer from WAW of 10k to go on her merry way. What I wanted to know essentially is; Can we decide to do this ourselves, and have a legally binding document drawn up saying that she has no future claim on the house? If so, what would that cost?
I was told that such a letter may not stand up in court upon D. So she may be able to still take half the house's equity anyway (and there would be a cost).
We could get a separation agreement drawn up, thrashing the details out now (at a cost of course, and the costs of the actual D still apply), or we could (and this is what she advised me to do as the cheapest option) divorce her now on grounds of unreasonable behaviour.

As I sat there, I thought.."Only on Friday did I feel confident and better about the sitch and now four days later, I have legal council telling me it's (financially) best to divorce her now. I don't even want to be separated, let alone divorced and now it's even that I'm instigating it!!
I knew already that WAW is also entitled to half my pension which to her would mean around 32k. I wasn't sure if she knew that but it hasn't been mentioned. Obviously, any legal council she seeks will tell her that, and tell her she's mad for taking 10k, oh and the credit card and loan, don't worry about those, their in Barry's name.

I then called WAW this evening to talk about this offer and thrash out the details - she didn't want to talk face to face. To be honest, I'd also said to her at the start of the S that if she ever sought legal council, she would tell me so I could do the same. It's only fair that I at least tell her I've been to talk about the offer. She also needs to know I can't get her money from our current lender, about the legality of her future claim on the house, and I wanted to broach the subject of the other debts too.

I asked her again the same question as last night, "Is this really what you want?". She said yes it is. I started giving her some spew and tears and told her I'd call her back in 5 minutes. I dried my eyes, went to my room and as I sit there about to call her back, I notice my books on the bedside table and think...ok then...NMMNG WAW!!

I told her I was going to get her her money, but first there's a few issues to discuss. How we go about the house with the options above. She said she doesn't want anything but the 10k and she would sign anything to say she had no further claim. She asked me to take it on faith? I said that I couldn't do that any more. She's broken one of the biggest (actually THE biggest) promise you can make to another human being and now she expects me to trust her, I think not WAW. I asked her what she proposes to do about her half of the debts, to which she said she'd "help out" with the monthly payments. She said she can't afford to take half. I said neither can I but I have to nonetheless.

When I reminded her that I'd soon have all the household bills back too, she said that she'll also have rent, bills etc to pay. I told her that that's HER choice, she can call all this off now and have none of that. I suggested she take a credit card out to transfer half the debts to. WAW had the nerve to say to me.,,"Ah, I see, now we're getting down to the nitty gritty". I said yes WAW, we are. It's not very nice is it, don't forget that this is what you want.

We exchanged some stern words with each other, but I'm not letting her lead this dance now. She told me "You're getting a great deal". I said "don't think you're doing me any favours, you're not". She doesn't appreciate the gravity of all this, that it's a life changing event. She just wants her money now.

It wasn't a great phone call, but she said she'd look into the credit card, and I said I'd look into her money. She's basically saying that she wants to not involve solicitors, separate, and get a cheap, quick, online divorce when we can. I've looked at this too and it can be done for around £350 - £500. I don't feel protected from her though with the house. She's different now, the woman I thought would never do this to me is gone, maybe forever. She's saying she won't rip me off now but what about in 2 years time?? I'm still not sure what I'm going to do but at the moment, my priority is seeing if I can raise the 10k at all.

All I can do now is think of the good times with fond memories and not attach any pain to them. I need to move on. Whether or not I leave the door open for WAW is yet to be seen, I want to but I don't know if I can after her doing this to us. What i do know is that unfortunatly, this is what she wants and the best thing for me and the kids is to not stand in her way.

My ring is off, and it didn't hurt as much as I thought. Maybe that tells me what I need to know.

Barry.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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Barry, thank you for your encouragement on my thread. I'm glad to see you taking care of yourself (meeting with a lawyer and figuring out your rights) in spite of not really wanting a divorce. I'm in the same position. I think you're right to be cautious about her "generous" offer. Definitely have a lawyer advise you on how to proceed with that. And make sure everything is in writing. Don't count on her to make payments on things unless they are exclusively in her name. Perhaps that's why she's asking for so little -- she doesn't want to assume the debt. It would be good to crunch the numbers and see how things really stand.

I'm glad you're able to think back on the good times without pain. That is really healthy. I wish I were able to do that. Right now, I look back and wonder if he was being phoney the whole time. His rewriting of history and his current actions cast a shadow on the past.

You sound like you're moving forward and taking care of yourself. Keep up the good work.


M: 43 H: 39
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Ahh, you're welcome Ahoy. Thanks for stopping by.

You're right, I don't want any of this but now WAW has been completly clear on what it is she wants. I can't worry about her or her feelings any more. She's not thinking of mine. All of these years I thought she was too good for me, when actually it's the other way around. She doesn't deserve me or any loyalty I would have happily shown her now she's done this.

I have to protect myself, my kids, my home and my future from her now.
In reality, the amount it'll cost me is double what she's asking for in cold hard cash when I take into account the debt she may not take from me, redemtion fees, court costs, lawyers fees etc. It could still be worse if she wanted to sell the house though.

As I say, I will take the lead on this now, she just needs to STFU, sign what I ask her too and wait for her money.
I know how bitter I sound. I am.

I'm trying to remain positive about things, it'll be easier to do that once I know I can finance this whole deal.
It's still going to take months to sort out, and year(s) to get over emotionally.

Barry.

Last edited by Barry; 03/04/15 02:55 PM.

Me 40 W 38
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S21 S19 D16 S14
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I know how you feel. And the money stuff is a huge stress. I have to tell myself all the time: it's just money. Also: whatever it costs me will be worth it.


M: 43 H: 39
D: 14
Married 15 Together 16
BD: 6/2014
S: 8/2014
OW revealed 10/2014
Instigated dissolution 12/2014, in progress
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I can't believe I find myself in this position but I now have to file against W.
I don't want to, I HAVE to. It's the only way I can get the consent agreement drawn up so that she can't come back for more upon D. I called W last night to tell her that was what I had to do. We didn't argue this time, we just talked.

I told W that I can't trust her word now. Even though I want to, I can't, I said that she didn't know where she'll be in just under 2 years and I can't run the risk of her changing her mind (or having it changed by other people). So I'll file, she said this is what she wants, she's not bothered that I'm filing for unreasonable behaviour.

I'm still working on the money side of things but it looks like it will be possible to do once I've sorted a few issues out. Apart from my mortgage, I'll be debt free and be paying less than I am now (admittedly for longer). I get most of the equity, my home back and two of my kids living with me. It's not the best outcome or what I wanted but it's the next best thing.

I did tell W that I was sorry that it had come to this, and that I wish her no harm. I asked her if she agreed that we'd had a good life together for the most part and she said yes we had. She just doesn't want it any more. I don't have to like that but I do have to accept it as painful as it is.

So we'll be divorced. Despite that, I told her that I'd never close the door on her but that I would move on with my life. I said if she ever had a change of heart and really wanted to be with me again, she should let me know. I'd marry her again, even after all of this. I say this because I love her still.

Damn you WAW for making me do this.


Me 40 W 38
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S21 S19 D16 S14
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Barry - I'm sorry it's coming to this. It must be horrible to work against your emotions like this. I admire you for finding the courage to do it. In my case, I just asked my WAW to wait a little more and we have no deadline. You've been very clear-minded and rational about it and it will pay off a great deal for you.

You probably know that you have to stop pursuing your WAW, to stop asking her if she really, really wants that. You report doing it almost every single time. It pushes her away. It does not help you in your goal to eventually reconcile. She needs to feel that you set her free. She needs to see you at peace with the new life you begin. From the little that I know and everything we have in common in terms of personality, I know it's not easy. Our emotions are so strong and we are sure that being honest and open is the right way to do things. But they are counterproductive right now. You're adding time to your jail time, you're also missing opportunities to have the greatest impact with your apparent detachment. In a few months, your lack of pursuit won't surprise her. But right now, looking like you're truly moving on will get noticed. Find the courage to do it.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
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Hi Mozza,

If there were any way to have the agreement drawn up without D, I'd do it but it's not possible. I told W that too. There is a chance she may not meet anyone, and I may not either. I just wanted her to know that I would take her back but only if she were 100% committed to a R with me again. She does know that I'll be moving on without her though.

Regarding the pursuit. I asked her on Monday if it was what she wanted but she didn't answer so I called her the following day to ask again and get an answer.
That was the last time I'll be asking that question now she's said that it IS what she wants. All I can do now is be strong for myself and kids. As I say, we did have a heartfelt conversation on the phone. I do love her and although things are ending between us in our M, I don't want it to be on bad terms regardless of the hurt I feel.

I have to think that this is the hand that fate has dealt me, and as much as I don't see it now, maybe it IS for the greater good. I haven't been happy for a long time in my M, neither has W. If this is what needs to happen for us both to be happy then so be it. I wish it could be different, but then I wish I drove a Ferrari too but that's not the case either. Wishes don't come true by themselves.

Even though this is ending, I'm going to keep posting here. This is all going to take some time to process and get over. Although it sounds like I'm giving up on DBing, I'm actually not. The ethos behind it all is sound and ultimately I never want to find myself in this position again. It's not all my fault but my view on myself, my M, and life in general hasn't been great and has contributed a lot to my sitch. Its time I stood up for what I want first and foremost now.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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There is something I forgot to mention.

I have a large colourful tattoo on my leg of a tree rooted in rock with 4 birds flying over it (it covers my lower leg). I had this done about a year ago and designed it with the help of the tattoo artist. No one has one quite like it.

At the time, I saw W and I as the rock, the tree was our lives, and the four birds are for my children. I looked at it last night and realised that it's I alone who must be the rock now, the tree is still MY life but W is only one branch of it, not the trunk.
There are many other branches.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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I went to see my S20 tonight for dinner and to shoot some pool. I told him about W's offer and what I intended to do. He was unhappy about it but could understand why it has to be this way. He told me to make sure I call the shots, and not to let W walk all over me. It's hard to hear him talk about his Mum that way, he's just looking out for me. He's a good son.

I've spoken to all the kids now. My D16 will live with W as already mentioned and my S18 and S13 will live with me (S20 at Uni). They are all welcome to stay with either of us whenever they want. I'm glad they're a little older so there's no issue with contact. W had already spoken with S13 about it and he was undecided, but after talking with me about he, he is staying. I'm so glad they both are.

I wish it didn't have to be this way. I miss W tonight.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
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Originally Posted By: Barry
I can't believe I find myself in this position but I now have to file against W.
I don't want to, I HAVE to. It's the only way I can get the consent agreement drawn up so that she can't come back for more upon D. I called W last night to tell her that was what I had to do. We didn't argue this time, we just talked.


Maybe it's REALLY REALLY different in the UK but here, we'd have written up a property agreement and it's pretty much a contract in nature.

IT's not truly about "the marriage" - it's about the HOUSE and DEBTS...assets and liabilities, business stuff.

Your solicitor may THINK it's best to divorce now, but I cannot believe you two cannot work out a private agreement that would merge into the final divorce, IF you wanted to.

But is that really such a terrible thing if you must? B/c truly,

filing for a divorce for financial reasons is just that; filing for divorce for financial reasons.

No need to stress MORE about it or blame HER MORE than you already do...

Though you SAY you know you were "a husband that only a fool would Stay married to", now that you have done some work on yourself, you seem to feel you are entitled to more of her life.

Try to back off that claim. Try to take her words at face value, for NOW,....which is not to say that you must believe the words OR that she will always feel a certain way. We can say for sure, she won't always feel the same.

But don't attach so much of your worth to it, okay?



I told W that I can't trust her word now. Even though I want to, I can't, I said that she didn't know where she'll be in just under 2 years and I can't run the risk of her changing her mind (or having it changed by other people).

Telling her you cannot trust her word is an odd way to put it - when the reality is neither of you knows where you'll be in 2 years or 5 years, etc. Do you see how much blame you continue to lay at her feet WHILE ALSO claiming that you are "taking responsibility" for your part in getting here?

I'm not sure you can have it both ways...


So I'll file, she said this is what she wants, she's not bothered that I'm filing for unreasonable behavior.

Please do NOT ask her if this is what she wants, again.

The one thing I know will NOT HELP YOU is continually asking her questions like that.

Trust me/us on this. There is a reason we say NOT to constantly challenge their choices...b/c it forces her to defend and cement those choices

instead of truly examining them.


The more you ask her if she is sure, the more sure she will say she feels. At some level that will increase her feelings of certainty.

So do yourself a favor and just Stop asking...


I'm still working on the money side of things but it looks like it will be possible to do once I've sorted a few issues out. Apart from my mortgage, I'll be debt free and be paying less than I am now (admittedly for longer). I get most of the equity, my home back and two of my kids living with me. It's not the best outcome or what I wanted but it's the next best thing.

Keep this^^ in mind as much as you can, when you start to backslide into victimhood...most men don't come out this "well", ((which I realize is a very relative term!!)

But yeah, relatively speaking, you are fortunate. TRY to realize that, okay?

You are a man living in a free nation, able to worship (or not) as you wish, to work in a field of your choice, you are healthy, your kids are healthy and safe (!), they love you and they know they are loved,

you have a roof over your head, electricity at home and food in the refrigerator, you have an income from a job you seem engrossed in...

Barry, hear me please. All this^^^ -- makes you in the lucky 4% of people, in the WORLD.




I did tell W that I was sorry that it had come to this, and that I wish her no harm. I asked her if she agreed that we'd had a good life together for the most part

cry tired Ouch

and she said yes we had. She just doesn't want it any more. I don't have to like that but I do have to accept it as painful as it is.

One last time, Barry, STOP asking her questions like that!

All I can say is that it's a serious turn OFF for a woman to have a man need so much reassurance and that is exactly what you are seeking, from a woman who is divorcing you.

You want her to have second thoughts? Then stop asking for reassurances, please.


So we'll be divorced. Despite that, I told her that I'd never close the door on her but that I would move on with my life.

The first clause ^^^ completely undermines the second clause. You just told her that in reality, you will wait for her...but you might pretend to move on...

Barry, it's like you are trying to stomp out any remaining chance there might be for her to doubt herself. It's very self defeating.



I said if she ever had a change of heart and really wanted to be with me again, she should let me know.



cry cry cry Because she'd keep that to herself??? SIGH....your neediness is too blatant...

I'd marry her again, even after all of this. I say this because I love her still.


well of course you would. You SAID she wants out of the marriage b/c you did not treat her well, but then you condemn her for that.

Barry just do YOUR WORK and let those changes speak for themselves. It's really all you can do, along with being the best dad you can be.

Down the road, we can try to help you demonstrate the new improved you more, and that MAY take some dating or dating attempts, but for now, JUST stop asking her for so much reassurances and stop the constant "historic temperature checks" of HER recall of the marriage, that she cannot possibly be objective about at this moment in time anyhow...

let the good memories resurface.

but those good memories cannot come to the surface if you keep "dunking" her in the "reassure Barry that it was really almost great but for some unknown reason the w wants out" water...

b/c that^^^ is NOT how SHE felt.

Damn you WAW for making me do this.




sigh....

Barry, back to basics b/c you have forgotten them or ignored them.

GAL and do some 180s and tell us about THEM and some short term goals.

Some short term goals for You might be:

1) NOT asking your w ANY relationship questions

2) NOT telling her how you feel about her or the marriage or the future,

or anything

OTHER than good things you are looking forward to, WITHOUT involving her.

Sorry you are in pain. I'm trying my best to help you LESSEN it but it's as if you want to inflict more on yourself.

Please, don't. ((( )))


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
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Hi 25years, I do appreciate your input, thanks for stopping by.

I know what you mean about the consent agreement being the only way. It's ridiculous. From what I've been told by L and what I've also looked at online, it's true. The options I have are;

1. We have an unofficial document drawn up by a L, agree on things but it will almost certainly not hold up in court if things change.
2. We have a separation agreement drawn up, agree on things but W CAN go to the courts at a later date & request changes.
3. We have the consent agreement drawn up by a L, and once agreed by the courts, this is final. It also counts for any claims made AFTER D. I didn't know that even once you're D, it is actually possible to stake a claim on any future windfalls...inheritance, lottery wins etc. The only way to have a consent agreement drawn up is to be in the process of D (you need the decree nisi to do it).

I don't want to D at all, I don't even want to be S! All I want to do is go home and be with my family again.
This is why I'm in such emotional turmoil with the whole sitch now and why I said some of the things I did to W.

When I asked my W outright as to how she saw this going in her mind, she said that she thought she could get her £10k, set up a home with it and that we would D later when we could afford to (she talked about online D's which are significantly cheaper).
She said she hadn't thought about the other financial matters (loans, Credit cards etc).

When I said that from the advice I'd had, me D'ing her would be the only way to completely protect myself legally, I asked her if that was what she wanted....to definitely D. She said "I think so, yes". Because she said "I think so", there's still a small part of me that thinks that if I could trust her enough to sign a separation agreement and not D yet, I would do that.
If it were the W I knew asking me of that level of trust, I wouldn't even think about it. She IS different now though and she's not thinking about me at all. It's a valid concern.

The benefit of a separation agreement is that we don't D yet and she could live as she wants to (w/o me) in her own place.
Maybe she needs to do that away from the marital home to really assess if she does want to D? If she decided not to and to R with me, I'd be happy to right off the money, it's not even about that.

The worrying part is that if she DOES decide she wants to D, she could then go to the courts and say she wants to change the agreement and it'll go into a big legal battle where ultimately, she's entitled to more and would get probably get it.
I could still lose everything because I couldn't afford to give her any more without selling my house.

At the moment, I'm starting to wonder if I should go with the separation agreement option and take the risk.
My head is saying not to, D her and move on. My heart is saying that if I don't want to file, don't file.

The problem with seeing it as D'ing for financial reasons is that to W, it's not that. She's told me she doesn't love me enough to be M to me now and that this is what she thinks is best for her. I'm aware that this may not always be the case.
It's really ME that's thinking about the financial aspect. I have to.

I think it's more a case that I feel more entitled to our assets than as opposed to feeling I'm more entitled to more of her life. Morally if not legally. All I want is to try to work things out.

I'd made real progress in my PMA and was feeling so much better when W agreed to have dinner with me. I DID go with no expectations, all I wanted was to spend some time with W and not to have to talk about the sitch at all which we'd agreed on in advance. When she made me this offer, it knocked me back so much. Rather than the pleasant evening it should have been, it turned into the start of the end. I'm right back where I started now, trying my best to live the way I should as per DB'ing (and which helped me before) but now I look at the books and their titles differently. How can I remedy a D, or bust one...that I'm talking about initiating!!?

I do blame her for the fact that she's now wanting to split up for good. I don't blame her entirely for the breakdown of the R, I certainly played my part in that. It's me wanting to fight for this, not me wanting to take some cash and split though.

I wont be asking W any questions about the R again. I had to say those things to her because at the moment, we're on a knife edge and things could go either way as far as D'ing now or later. I was only trying to make sure that this is what she wants because it's such a big thing to undertake. 21 years of marriage and our life together will be over (it is already) and I was just trying to see if she really wanted to go all the way on it.

When I asked her if she agreed that we'd had a good life together, it wasn't to reassure me. I know we have and in my mind, the good times far outweigh the bad. This is clearly not the case for W or she wouldn't be doing this. She only sees the last year or so rather than the whole M and forgets about all the good times. I just wanted her to think about it more.

If we do go through with this offer (via any of the options above), relatively speaking, it IS still the next best thing and I will be all of the things you mentioned in your post. Whether I feel lucky or not is a different matter.

So, what I need to decide now is which way I want to go on this. Do I trust her or not? I don't know right now.

I do need to get back to basics on this. I need to do what works I know. It's just that it worked before because I didn't have thoughts of re-mortgaging and divorce running through my mind.

I do really appreciate you coming by my thread and your continued support and advice. I'll be sure to post on what I decide to do.

If anyone has any thoughts on this, I'd welcome them.

Barry.


Me 40 W 38
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S21 S19 D16 S14
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Hi Barry

I'm in a similar sitch to you - needing to work out thr financials and protect myself, but ideally not wanting to D. My L has suggested we work towards a deed of separation along with a financial settlement. Whilst it is not a watertight document, she advised me that it carries significant weight with the court in the event that we do ultimately D.

How she described it was that the deed would normally carry through and be part of the D proceedings - as you say unless something changes in the meantime. But my L said that the 'something' would need to be substantial. The example she gave was if one of us had a serious accident and were no longer able to work. She said the courts would take a pretty dim view of someone trying to change something that they agreed to, having had legal advice, unless there were a significant factor in there.

So, at the moment, H and I are working towards a deed of S, and I hope that we may either be able to reconcile or that we may D once the 2 year separation period is up.


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Hi Toots, thanks for stopping by my thread and your input.

I see what you mean about the similarities in our sitch's right now! I had a good read through your threads today.
I've decided that I'm going to go down the exact same path as you I think.

I won't file for D when it's not me that wants it. The separation agreement will have to do as far as any changes further down the line and any trust issues I have against W. What I want is my family back and me filing for D against W does not work towards that goal at all! The future may or may not hold any positive changes in our M, but if I file, it'll certainly hold negative ones.

Just so you know, my L is £220 p/h too, chargeable in 6 minute increments...Ouch!
You don't call them to chat about the weather do you lol!!


Me 40 W 38
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BARRY!! What's been going on? Haven't talked to you in awhile. How are you?


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Hi Joe. Good to hear from you.

The answer to that is lots...and nothing. W has made me an offer to buy her out of the house (good offer for me) and at the moment I've been getting alsorts of information and advice on how I could do that. Very similar to Toots in that a L told me I'd be better off D'ing W but it's not what I want. W is indifferent to my decision.

Small update.
I went to see W yesterday. Not to talk about the R or say any of things I've mentioned above. It was to let her know that I have a bit of a problem in raising the money at this stage and that it's going to be at least a few weeks before I can sort it out (if at all). I also discussed the options with her again. I told her my thoughts on me filing against her and said that I didn't really want to do that when its not what I want, even if it's the "best" option financially and legally.

She said she can't help me make my decision but that all she wants is the £10k, nothing else. She will sign any agreement (legally binding or otherwise) to that effect. I'm certain now that the offer is so small out of guilt on her part. I can see it in her eyes. She said that if I thought that in not D'ing her, things would change, it won't (she doesn't KNOW that and neither do I though) and we're not getting back together. Again, she's talking in absolutes, which we all know WAS's do.

I've read up some more on the separation agreement and it does seem to be what I need to do to both protect myself and give me some more time. If W wants to D me at the end of the two years, then that's HER choice, not mine.

I still have some time to decide what to do, but right now, I think a SA is the way forward for me.

Barry.


Me 40 W 38
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Barry,
You are not likely to get so generous an offer from her later. Trust me on this. You can always D and then start up a relationship again later (and even remarry) if you want, and if you both get to that place. D is not the end, necessarily. And if you do remarry, I'd get a prenup with an infidelity clause.


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Barry, there is an important difference in our sitches and potential S agreement. H and I will be going through full financial disclosure process, consider overall financial picture, agree 'fair' settlement of finances before (hopefully) signing agreement.

Whilst I wouldn't be too keen to rush into D, I think there are more risks with your sitch that your W could make a future claim against you. Whilst she feels happy to walk away with £10k now, what will she feel in a year's time? Presumably she would get some L advice before signing agreement. Is L likely to advise W this isn't a good settlement for her?

In our case, I feel the risk of a future claim from H will be small as we will have gone through 'due process' to divide our finances. I worry that for you (if you haven't done that and W accepts a 'poor deal') the risks will be greater.

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but I thought it was important to mention this...


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Originally Posted By: Barry
Hi 25years, I do appreciate your input, thanks for stopping by.

I know what you mean about the consent agreement being the only way. It's ridiculous. From what I've been told by L and what I've also looked at online, it's true. The options I have are;

1. We have an unofficial document drawn up by a L, agree on things but it will almost certainly not hold up in court if things change.
2. We have a separation agreement drawn up, agree on things but W CAN go to the courts at a later date & request changes.
3. We have the consent agreement drawn up by a L, and once agreed by the courts, this is final. It also counts for any claims made AFTER D. I didn't know that even once you're D, it is actually possible to stake a claim on any future windfalls...inheritance, lottery wins etc. The only way to have a consent agreement drawn up is to be in the process of D (you need the decree nisi to do it).

I don't want to D at all, I don't even want to be S! All I want to do is go home and be with my family again.

2 comments re the above^^. As to the legal options, I want to summarize as briefly as I can, TO SEE if this is an accurate recap And to maybe make it a little simpler. Okay?

You seem to be saying that - unless you file for divorce AND it's finalized, (i.e. "blessed" by the judge in court), that things can change.

Which is essentially the same everywhere in the west.

Here In America, most things re children can be modified until they are no longer children. That is b/c a child's needs can change (the child can become disabled, or need additional help in school, for instance).

But property division agreements here, once agreed upon AND approved by the courts, are finalized when they are "finalized." So is the divorce itself. That cannot be undone.

In the UK?? I am not qualified to comment on the pros and cons of a separation in the UK. I only know your common law forms the basis of ours, and that 49 states use it as ours, (Louisiana is the odd duck and only state of 50, that goes the way of the Napoleonic Code).

However, what's really being discussed by your wife, I BELIEVE, is a reasonable suggestion about how to reduce costs, mostly by you two attempting to reach an out of court property agreement.

Nothing is inherently bad or wrong about ^^ that in itself, especially since she has not suggested anything insanely one sided or mean spirited. It's just really painful. You are presently unable to Not take it personally, which makes all of this much harder. If this were an arms length transaction like most business deals, you'd be better able to review the terms objectively, obviously.

But don't dismiss it b/c you are taking it personally; work on NOT taking it so personally. Again, she is not being mean spirited about any of this thus far, so remind yourself that as badly as you feel, this really could be a lot worse.

I won't pretend to know of any "friendly" divorces. But I definitely know of some truly horrific unfair divorces.

The 2 family members I have, who divorced and then remarried their spouses a few years later, had hurt feelings and wounded egos but I don't recall a lot of fighting over the pots and pans and cars...just really sad partings.


Secondly, I know you don't want this. That is abundantly clear.

But as Starsky has said in the past, and what I also believe, is that you are now in a "Damage Control" mode. Time to Cut your losses.

You must do your best to protect yourself AND your assets, which is another way of protecting your children, btw.

I'm unclear about the custody. Are you NOT going to have your d's with you? But you will have the boys? Yes, I know boys are male and girls are female but won't they feel the other parent has given them away?

FWIW, I think the father daughter relationship is very underrated in our world. Most girls see their dads as representing the "outside world" to them, so that their r with their dad represents how they'll be treated by it. Versus the nurturing mother in the home, where it's safe...

Is the outside world an exciting, adventure, and a welcoming place, or is it an unknowable mystery, with uncommunicative or critical people sitting in judgment of them?

(I don't say that to imply anything, but to paraphrase a book I read ).

As much as you can, you must make it clear to each child, that they are precious to you, and so is time spent with them. I will leave it at that b/c I don't want to belabor a point or make you feel worse. I just need to encourage you as much as possible to NOT believe that "a girl needs a mom and not much else" b/c that is not true.



This is why I'm in such emotional turmoil with the whole sitch now and why I said some of the things I did to W.

When I asked my W outright as to how she saw this going in her mind, she said that she thought she could get her £10k, set up a home with it and that we would D later when we could afford to (she talked about online D's which are significantly cheaper).
She said she hadn't thought about the other financial matters (loans, Credit cards etc).

When I said that from the advice I'd had, me D'ing her would be the only way to completely protect myself legally, I asked her if that was what she wanted....to definitely D. She said "I think so, yes". Because she said "I think so", there's still a small part of me that thinks that if I could trust her enough to sign a separation agreement and not D yet, I would do that.
If it were the W I knew asking me of that level of trust, I wouldn't even think about it. She IS different now though and she's not thinking about me at all. It's a valid concern.

The benefit of a separation agreement is that we don't D yet and she could live as she wants to (w/o me) in her own place.

So you mean to say that a LS in your country would NOT make any difference in the logistics or finances? Other than religious or emotional reasons, it sounds as if there are no other factors, and thus, you'd only be prolonging your financial uncertainty with a Legal Separation.

Correct?

As to her replying "I think so"... I would read almost nothing into that. It has to be the 20th (??_ time you have asked her if she is sure. Her Saying "I'm 100% POSITIVE!!" might almost sound cruel to say, at this point...

FTR, I don't think most people are "positive" about getting a divorce, but they do it anyhow. They figure they'll see how it feels later on, but they are in pain or emotional discomfort and think a divorce is their only answer.

They do not believe things can change. So, when they change it themselves, and then see that the other person IS in fact changing and becoming different, that's the only way THEY can learn this lesson. Sometimes it's too late to recon, but sometimes it's not.

None of us can tell you how to OR IF you can win her back. But we know one thing.

We know that

No WAS returns to a marriage they left, UNLESS

they believe the marriage can be better/different than before.

Only time apart and change in YOU, can prove that to her...(ask yourself how you are behaving differently, than before, to see the areas you may wish to work on).

And please,

don't worry today, about how you will feel toward her tomorrow.

Just get back to YOU.


Maybe she needs to do that away from the marital home to really assess if she does want to D? If she decided not to and to R with me, I'd be happy to right off the money, it's not even about that.

The worrying part is that if she DOES decide she wants to D, she could then go to the courts and say she wants to change the agreement and it'll go into a big legal battle where ultimately, she's entitled to more and would get probably get it.
I could still lose everything because I couldn't afford to give her any more without selling my house.


I assume a legal sep agreement would be A factor to consider in a Div agreement but Not THE ONLY factor.

(Many legal Sep agreements here are simply "copy & pasted" to fit the final Div so that the LS agreement becomes the final Div settlement as well).

But it is not conclusively THE factor, in a final divorce.


So if YOU want an end to "financial ambiguity" and to eliminate risk, the best or only way for that to happen is to divorce her. Correct?

All I am saying is that this^^ means to me, that

a Sep agreement you two reach, IF IT is a good one for you, MIGHT help you later but it might not.

However It cannot hurt you financially
--b/c they are not going to "punish" you for having an agreement she suggested. Worst case scenario, they might just ignore it.

Okay? If so, then that's that. Up to you.


At the moment, I'm starting to wonder if I should go with the separation agreement option and take the risk.
My head is saying not to, D her and move on. My heart is saying that if I don't want to file, don't file.

The business reasons are not that relevant in my opinion. This seems more about your crossroads of when to move on and when to keep standing.

Again, up to you.


The problem with seeing it as D'ing for financial reasons is that to W, it's not that. She's told me she doesn't love me enough to be M to me now and that this is what she thinks is best for her. I'm aware that this may not always be the case.
It's really ME that's thinking about the financial aspect. I have to.


You are sort of going in circles and overcomplicating this, I believe. Of course "this may not always be the case" and there is ambiguity INSIDE a marriage too, or none of us would have ever landed here. There are never any guarantees.

No offense meant, okay? But let's Keep it simple b/c in some ways, it is simple.

No, it's absolutely NOT easy, but it's also not "mathematically complex"...


I think it's more a case that I feel more entitled to our assets than as opposed to feeling I'm more entitled to more of her life. Morally if not legally. All I want is to try to work things out.

I'd made real progress in my PMA and was feeling so much better when W agreed to have dinner with me. I DID go with no expectations, all I wanted was to spend some time with W and not to have to talk about the sitch at all which we'd agreed on in advance. When she made me this offer, it knocked me back so much. Rather than the pleasant evening it should have been, it turned into the start of the end. I'm right back where I started now, trying my best to live the way I should as per DB'ing (and which helped me before) but now I look at the books and their titles differently. How can I remedy a D, or bust one...that I'm talking about initiating!!?


Every now and then, it's the only way to...


I do blame her for the fact that she's now wanting to split up for good. I don't blame her entirely for the breakdown of the R, I certainly played my part in that. It's me wanting to fight for this, not me wanting to take some cash and split though.


I wont be asking W any questions about the R again. I had to say those things to her because at the moment, we're on a knife edge and things could go either way as far as D'ing now or later. I was only trying to make sure that this is what she wants because it's such a big thing to undertake. 21 years of marriage and our life together will be over (it is already) and I was just trying to see if she really wanted to go all the way on it.

I know this^^. I know you believe a divorce is "a big mistake" and that she "could go either way".

I'm telling you is that IF there is a chance for her to reconsider - it will NOT be aided by you requesting it, and you have requested it several times. I actually believe that lessens the chances you have. I think it literally hurts your cause.


When I asked her if she agreed that we'd had a good life together, it wasn't to reassure me. I know we have and in my mind, the good times far outweigh the bad. This is clearly not the case for W or she wouldn't be doing this. She only sees the last year or so rather than the whole M and forgets about all the good times. I just wanted her to think about it more.

You are suppressing any possible resurfacing of good memories, by telling her to "think about it more". I don't know how else to say this.


If we do go through with this offer (via any of the options above), relatively speaking, it IS still the next best thing and I will be all of the things you mentioned in your post. Whether I feel lucky or not is a different matter.

So, what I need to decide now is which way I want to go on this. Do I trust her or not? I don't know right now.


I don't see that as the question. I see the money question as being "if we have to change any part of this, it will cost more. If not, it'll save some money."

And the emotional question is "Do I file for a D that I don't want?" AND "How, if at all, could that affect any chance for a later recon?"


I do need to get back to basics on this. I need to do what works I know.



Yes to THIS^^^ and the rest of what you wrote (below) is more delaying and hand wringing and trying to manipulate outcomes that you cannot effect....and over thinking things.

Keep it boiled down to the truths and risks you KNOW of, and accept that there is simply NO risk free way thru this.

And keep on keeping on...you will get to the other side, IN TIME.





It's just that it worked before because I didn't have thoughts of re-mortgaging and divorce running through my mind.

I do really appreciate you coming by my thread and your continued support and advice. I'll be sure to post on what I decide to do.

If anyone has any thoughts on this, I'd welcome them.

Barry.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
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Ahoy, thanks for your input. I know I wont get a better offer than this, and provided I can...I intend to take it.

Toots, thank you too. I agree that the difference between out sitch's is fairly crucial. When W sees a L, they will tell her she is crazy for putting forward such a deal. I don't know how this will pan out yet. W may say that it's all she wants to get it over with quickly - it 's her idea after all, or she may push for more (say, out of my pension pot) once she has all the facts. I need to be careful no matter which way I decide to go (I am back in D mode right now!!).

25years, thanks for the detailed response, I'll go through some of your comments here to try and clarify...

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

You seem to be saying that - unless you file for divorce AND it's finalized,things can change.

Not quite.
The divorce doesn't need to be finalised to draw up the consent order, it's the decree nisi you need to do it, not the decree absolute. The consent order, should it be agreed by the courts (which would probably mean we would both need to appear in court to explain why it is so heavily one sided in my favour) would cover the usual division of assets, and make provision for the children's welfare. The consent order would need to be finalised to make it legally binding, but not necassarily the divorce.


Here In America, most things re children can be modified until they are no longer children.
That is b/c a child's needs can change (the child can become disabled, or need additional help in school, for instance).

I believe this would be the same in the UK (though I'm not totally sure at this stage). Any agreements made between W and I relating to the children could - and actually should, be reviewed if their needs were to change.

But property division agreements here, once agreed upon AND approved by the courts, are finalized when they are "finalized." So is the divorce itself. That cannot be undone.

^^ This is the difference. A consent order cannot be changed once it's been finalised (maybe in the case of the children's needs as above). A separation agreement does NOT carry the same legal weight and changes could be requested by W. The changes requested would need a valid reason - not just because "W feels she got a raw deal at the time of signing the SA" As Toots said, the courts would take a dim view of that request. So really, my best protection lies in a Consent Order, which I can only obtain if I divorce her.

However, what's really being discussed by your wife, I BELIEVE, is a reasonable suggestion about how to reduce costs, mostly by you two attempting to reach an out of court property agreement.

Correct. I've told W that I'm not handing her £10,000 though on agreement that isn't legally binding. I know too many people who have been stung by their ex-partners. Agreements that were built on trust, which soon dissipated when they went their separate ways.

Nothing is inherently bad or wrong about that in itself, especially since she has not suggested anything insanely one sided or mean spirited. It's just really painful. You are presently unable to Not take it personally, which makes all of this much harder. If this were an arms length transaction like most business deals, you'd be better able to review the terms objectively, obviously.

True, in fact the offer she has made is more sided to me. It IS painful though, because we both know that she's making this one-sided offer in an attempt to get away from me asap and on with her life.
I know I should just let go.


But don't dismiss it b/c you are taking it personally; work on NOT taking it so personally. Remind yourself that as badly as you feel, this really could be a lot worse.

I really am trying to think of it as a piece of financial business rather than what it is - the end of my long marriage. I read a lot of other people's sitch's here and I know it could be a LOT worse.

You are now in a "Damage Control" mode. Time to cut your losses. You must do your best to protect yourself AND your assets, which is another way of protecting your children, btw.

The best way for me to do this is to file and have the consent order drawn up.

I'm unclear about the custody. Are you NOT going to have your d's with you? But you will have the boys? Yes, I know boys are male and girls are female but won't they feel the other parent has given them away?

My D16 will live with W, S13 and S18 with me and S20 lives away from home already (Uni). We've both spoken with the children and we're all agreed that this is the way forward.

I think the father daughter relationship is very underrated in our world. As much as you can, you must make it clear to each child, that they are precious to you, and so is time spent with them. I just need to encourage you as much as possible to NOT believe that "a girl needs a mom and not much else" b/c that is not true.

Absolutely agree with this. My D16 and I have always had a very close relationship. Unfortunatly, she does appear to be fighting W's corner at every oppurtunity at the moment. I've spoken with her (as she will be the one I don't get to live with) and we've agreed that she will come and stay over often and come for meals etc. I've told the boys the same - that W will want to see them often. I believe W is actually looking at property close by so they will be able to do this.

So you mean to say that a LS in your country would NOT make any difference in the logistics or finances? Other than religious or emotional reasons, it sounds as if there are no other factors, and thus, you'd only be prolonging your financial uncertainty with a Legal Separation.

Correct?

The part in bold type is essentially correct yes.

As to her replying "I think so"... I would read almost nothing into that. It has to be the 20th time you have asked her if she is sure. Her saying "I'm 100% POSITIVE!!" might almost sound cruel to say, at this point..

I know, I'm clutching at straws.

FTR, I don't think most people are "positive" about getting a divorce, but they do it anyhow. They figure they'll see how it feels later on, but they are in pain or emotional discomfort and think a divorce is their only answer. They do not believe things can change. So, when they change it themselves, and then see that the other person IS in fact changing and becoming different, that's the only way THEY can learn this lesson. Sometimes it's too late to recon, but sometimes it's not.
I fear that W and I are in the first category.

None of us can tell you how to OR IF you can win her back. But we know one thing.
We know that no WAS returns to a marriage they left, UNLESS they believe the marriage can be better/different than before. Only time apart and change in YOU, can prove that to her...(ask yourself how you are behaving differently than before, to see the areas you may wish to work on). And please, don't worry today, about how you will feel toward her tomorrow. Just get back to YOU. Sound advice - thank you.

I assume a legal sep agreement would be A factor to consider in a Div agreement but not THE ONLY factor (many legal Sep agreements here are simply "copy & pasted" to fit the final Div so that the LS agreement becomes the final Div settlement as well). But it is not conclusively THE factor, in a final divorce.Yes, this is the same in the UK.

So if YOU want an end to "financial ambiguity" and to eliminate risk, the best or only way for that to happen is to divorce her. Correct? Essentially - yes.

Originally Posted By: Barry
My head is saying to D her and move on. My heart is saying that if I don't want to file, don't file.
The business reasons are not that relevant in my opinion. This seems more about your crossroads of when to move on and when to keep standing. Again, up to you.
Yes - this is exactly what I'm struggling with. I wish I could silence my heart.

Originally Posted By: Barry
How can I remedy a D, or bust one...that I'm talking about initiating!!?.
Every now and then, it's the only way to.
I guessed this was the answer.

Originally Posted By: Barry
So, what I need to decide now is which way I want to go on this. Do I trust her or not? I don't know right now.
I don't see that as the question. I see the money question as being "if we have to change any part of this, it will cost more. If not, it'll save some money."
And the emotional question is "Do I file for a D that I don't want?" AND "How, if at all, could that affect any chance for a later recon?".
Yes - these questions are more accurate. I'm still none the wiser on the answers though.

Keep it boiled down to the truths and risks you KNOW of, and accept that there is simply NO risk free way thru this.
And keep on keeping on...you will get to the other side, IN TIME.



Ultimatley, I think I should follow my head and D her. It takes away any financial risk once the Consent Order is completed, I get my home back (albeit at a higher cost), and two thirds of the available kids living with me.
Where W is right now, I deserve more than this out of life. I have a lot to offer someone (should I want to pursue another R with someone else) and I shouldn't have to be constantly worrying about if my partner loves me - which is what I've done for a long time.

I really appreciate you taking the time to give such a detailed response. I'll confirm what I do when I do it!!

Barry.

Last edited by Barry; 03/09/15 04:39 PM.

Me 40 W 38
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Not a good evening yesterday. Cried for a long time. I hate this damn sitch so much.
I'm now constantly thinking about divorce when all I want to do is love my W, kiss her and hold her in my arms again.

I know it's very pessimistic but it's just not going to happen.
I'm so depressed about it.


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Barry, I hear you, I really do. You need to start moving forward. Make some plans, make a life for yourself. Start living. I know it is hard, but the sooner you start planning your path ahead, the easier it will get. Take the focus off of your W, there is nothing to be gained by obsessing about her. She is gone to you and no amount of crying will get her back, no pleading will soften her heart. Take care of yourself, you matter, spend time with the kids, go do stuff together. Lough, walk, talk, smile, LIVE.

If you need to vent, we're right here for you buddy. You are not alone.

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Barry,

Regarding relationship and romance, Separation vs. Divorce are just semantics. If your wife wants to date someone else, she will regardless. If your wife wants back in the marriage, she will tell you regardless. Living separately, being legally separated or divorced will make no real difference in her behavior or choices. As they say here, "She's out to lunch."

Legally and financially speaking (and for your children's well-being too) there is a HUGE difference, from what you are telling me about UK law. You need to protect yourself NOW. You need to secure your home, your children's stability, etc. If a divorce is going to better accomplish that, DO IT NOW. Two years from now when your wife has a boyfriend and he's telling her to take YOU to the cleaners, your well-being will be compromised.

Getting a divorce means you are moving on. If you keep telling her you will come back crawling to her if she changes her mind, she'll always know you are the fallback option -- you are PLAN B. And if she knows that, she'll never really have to face the consequences of her actions. She'll also be able to play you in 2 year's time when she wants a more generous settlement.

I honestly think the best way to give your wife the space to process her actions and really think about losing you is to divorce her and set yourself up well. In addition, stop asking her if she really wants this, and stop telling her that you are a viable plan B in case her new single (and soon to be dating) life doesn't work out.

--Theoden




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Barry, give yourself permission to be sad. But don't stay there long.

Just wanted to drop by to "x 2" Theoden's post.

Remember that when we're in the thick of our sitches, we are thinking mostly with emotion. Theoden has given you words of wisdom rooted in logic and reason. It's easier for him/us to see things clearly because we are not emotionally invested in your sitch AND we've been where you are.

It's damn good advice.


M: 40 H: 44
Married 14 years
S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M
2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart
Piecing: April 2014
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Please help me guys, I'm in such a bad place right now. I hear all of your good advice, I really do. I know it already, because it's exactly what I'd be telling someone if I were reading another sitch. It's 12 weeks today since BD, and I don't feel any better about this though...I'm so tired guys. Tired of being attached to W.

I've been trying to GAL and keep a PMA. I've just had so much to do with sorting the finance issues out, studying up on divorce, spending time with the kids (I realise this is a good thing), and trying to keep a level head at work that the other things I've been doing have all fallen by the wayside. I haven't worked out for a couple of weeks, I've eaten poorly and slept terribly. These are all choices I've made obviously, I could have changed any of them.

I haven't wanted to because I've felt terrible about the fact that my W no longer loves me and that she's lost to me now. She's been part of my life for 22 years. My friend, my lover, my confidant...she's going to love and grow old with someone else now. She's the only girl I've ever loved, and I don't know how to switch it off. I know she has so I don't have a choice, it's move on or torture myself forever.

I've had NC with W for around a week, apart from one text about the kids arrangements if and when I'm able to take her up on this offer. She ignored it.
I slipped up again today though and text'd her asking for her to go for some food with me tonight. She replied a moment ago basically saying no, there's no point and she doesn't want to sit there pretending everything is ok.

I don't either. Everything is NOT ok, in fact everything's ruined now. The trouble is that I feel weak guys, I was just about to text W back begging her to not do this, professions of love, the works. All whilst in floods of tears.

I typed it out...then deleted it.
That's why I'm here, telling you, not her.

Barry.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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Sorry Barry,I know your struggling. I've had very similar feelings the last few days/weeks. It's not ok, everything isn't fine. It's like you can't believe this is really happening and you only keep strong at times hopeing things will work themselves out but then reality sets in and your just in complete disbelief. Like your in this nightmare that won't end. It's painful, the most painful thing we may ever experience. You don't have to switch it off, it will take time to heal from this, time you have to give yourself. The tiredness is something I've also experienced alot of the last week. Physically, mentally, emotionally. It's a new emotion for me also. It's been about 12 weeks for me as well so know this may just be part of the process we go through. I wish I could say something to help. Speaking to her won't help, I know that much now.

Try and exercise again, the boost you get will help some. It's important to eat and sleep also. Keep to the basics and take everything in small steps.


Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
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Han in there fellas, 12 weeks is still very fresh. Soon you will start the turn towards calmer waters. Give a month or 2 and you will start rising.

Barry, you gave get your focus of your W and onto yourself, STOP with the pursuing, you can clearly see it does you no good. Your wife is lost to you now, you might as well be talking to a brick wall. You have to let her go and start working on yourself. Start building your confidence up, start making your life a great story of success. Be the best dad in the world for your kids, become the great man that you always wanted to become. Be the role model for your kids. Make them proud. Start living your life today!

There will still be crappy days and lonely nights, but the will become fewer and fewer.

We're here for you...

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I feel a new thread coming....a positive one smile


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 194
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Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 194
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Hello everyone, I have something to say, something I've not told the forum before. It's important but please don't judge me for it, it was a very long time ago. It had a big impact on me, my W and my M for a long time. As I reflect on how I find myself here, this is something that's had a profound effect on me all my life.

I cheated on my W when we'd been married for about a year.

This would be 20 years ago now. I don't even know why I did it. I prided myself on being someone who would never do that and I was very much in love with my W. I was such an a***hole.
I broke it off with OW. I was very attracted to her but I couldn't do it to my W any more. OW told me in the same phone call that she was pregnant.
She had a termination and I never saw her again.

About 6 months later, OW called my workplace one night (I worked shifts back then) to tell me she was going to tell my W as she felt I'd left her in the lurch and had got away with it (she was right, I had).

She'd found out where I lived and had been spying on the house. I told her there and then that I would tell my W rather than her hear it from an OW and she said she was going to tell her the next day.
I left work, went home and woke my wife at about 1:00am and told her everything. She was devastated and something died in her and in our M that day.

I left the house and slept in my car for a couple of days. I was so ashamed of myself. I had been for a long time, and I was almost glad I'd told her.
I called W a few days later and she said to come home.
We talked about it, and I answered every question she asked truthfully. We both cried, but she was so hurt by it. Anyway, she said she wanted me to stay and for us to work things out. She hadn't told anyone about it and she wanted it to stay that way. Our families still didn't know up to BD, although hers probably do now. Mine still don't.

I've never wanted to jeopardise my life that that again. I'm not a serial cheater and I've never even considered being intimate with anyone else in 20 years. I mean that.

It took a long time to gain her trust back but we were both determined to make it work. After a year and a half or so, she told me that she'd forgiven me but she'd never forget it. It affected me for years though, too many years. I let my W dominate me in a lot of ways because I walked on eggshells for most of our early marriage. I'd hurt the one I loved in the worst way possible and I was always trying to make amends even after she said she forgave me.

This went on in my head for so many years that it became engrained into my very being. It wasn't in the forefront of my mind all the time obviously but it became the norm that I'd always be the one to back down on everything. My W never apologised for anything in our M.

We went to Greece for a week on our 15th wedding anniversary and whilst we were there, something bought the topic up. I told my W that I still felt sorry for what I did back then, but that it had made me love her more when I realised what I was could have lost. She told me to let it go, that she never thought about it and only ever thought of me as a faithful husband. We ML that night and it was the best of our lives. In fact, those were the best years around that time.

I've never been able to forgive myself completely for it though. I always only ever wanted to please my wife and to make her happy. Over the years, I suffocated my W with love into becoming a WAW. It was her decision to go but I paved the way.

So here I am, about to be a divorced all because I couldn't forget the past.
As the saying goes, we reap what we sow.


Me 40 W 38
T 23 M 21
S21 S19 D16 S14
BD 19/12/2014
D mentioned 27/2/2015.
I filed 08/04/2015, D Absolute 04/11/2015
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